Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: Fisherbob on April 01, 2013, 10:17:27 AM

Title: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 01, 2013, 10:17:27 AM
http://www.campbellrivermirror.com/opinion/200502521.html
In response to.
http://www.campbellrivermirror.com/error/?errorURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.campbellrivermirror.com%2Fopinion%2Fletters%2F200122881.htmlhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.campbellrivermirror.com%2Fopinion%2Fletters%2F200122881.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 01, 2013, 10:25:38 AM
Not sure what was changed in the first one, but this link works.
http://www.campbellrivermirror.com/opinion/letters/200122881.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 01, 2013, 09:15:08 PM
Did the link to the opinion section get all wonky as well?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 03, 2013, 02:29:05 PM
http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=8187408
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on April 03, 2013, 05:37:22 PM
Thanks for that link Fisherbob, perhaps some might even read it ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 03, 2013, 06:39:36 PM
Your welcome Dave. It sure looks like Alaska has no problem farming salmon along with the Atlantic farms in Washington.
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on April 03, 2013, 07:56:14 PM
Thanks for that link Fisherbob, perhaps some might even read it ;)

It's written by Walling of the BC Salmon Farmers Association....   She couldn't care less if every single wild salmon disappeared.... other than it would make her job easier. You're not going to get any facts straight by reading what she writes...
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on April 03, 2013, 10:37:09 PM
It's written by Walling of the BC Salmon Farmers Association....   She couldn't care less if every single wild salmon disappeared.... other than it would make her job easier. You're not going to get any facts straight by reading what she writes...

Not going to get any facts from you - that's for certain.

You do realize that salmon farms do exist in Puget Sound and off the West Coast of Vancouver Island and that Harrison Sockeye juveniles were found wintering off the West Coast of Vancouver Island according to Tucker et al 2009.  This is the same paper that Ms Morton uses as evidence that Harrison Sockeye migrate up the West Coast of Vancouver Island.  However, Cohen says that the evidence on the migratory route used by Harrison Sockeye is still uncertain (Vol. 3; Chapter 2, page 62).  Unless you believe the map used by farm critics in the film that show that Harrison Sockeye smolts migrate out into open ocean immediately after leaving Juan de Fuca Strait instead of staying close to the continental shelf or shorelines where their food sources are more likely to be.

http://salmonfarmscience.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/wild_2009_stock_specific_migrations_juvenile_sockeye.pdf
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/all_companies_2007-12_out_migration_sites.pdf

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 06, 2013, 12:11:25 AM
It's written by Walling of the BC Salmon Farmers Association....   She couldn't care less if every single wild salmon disappeared.... other than it would make her job easier. You're not going to get any facts straight by reading what she writes...
Are the facts all straight by reading what only Morton writes AF?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: StillAqua on April 06, 2013, 08:09:47 AM
It's written by Walling of the BC Salmon Farmers Association....   She couldn't care less if every single wild salmon disappeared.... other than it would make her job easier.
How do you know it's written by Walling AF? I don't see any identification on the blog.  ???
And why do you say Walling doesn't care if wild salmon disappear? Has she written something that you could quote and reference? I don't recall hearing anyone, anywhere, ever say in public they would like wild salmon to disappear.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 06, 2013, 09:59:12 AM
Big companies into wild and farmed fish.
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on April 06, 2013, 10:38:07 AM
How do you know it's written by Walling AF? I don't see any identification on the blog.  ???

Maybe you are looking at a different article....   This is the link Fisherbob posted and Dave thinks everyone should read: http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=8187408 (http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=8187408)

And why do you say Walling doesn't care if wild salmon disappear? Has she written something that you could quote and reference? I don't recall hearing anyone, anywhere, ever say in public they would like wild salmon to disappear.

Of course she has never publicly admitted that she doesn't care if wild salmon disappear. If she ever did she would be looking for a new job. However simple logic makes it obvious. If there were no wild salmon there would be no negative reactions to feedlots (like in Chile), and if there were no wild salmon there would be no competition for the feedlots product on grocery shelves.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on April 06, 2013, 02:20:02 PM
You mean that a "fun house mirror perspective" makes it obvious.

How are the gala's ticket sales going?  Don is running low on rent money and needs a new orange prison suit so make sure you donate.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on April 06, 2013, 07:55:12 PM
You mean that a "fun house mirror perspective" makes it obvious.

How are the gala's ticket sales going?  Don is running low on rent money and needs a new orange prison suit so make sure you donate.


oooohhh, low blow steve.....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 07, 2013, 06:03:12 PM

oooohhh, low blow steve.....
If we can't take it, we should not be giving it. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 08, 2013, 07:14:27 AM
Attack of the Salmon Sewing Circle, complete with recent articles from Pravda. Walling is the cakehole of the farmers , so you think there would be any balance? (Now I wait for the attacks about how little I know to no education and so on.) You guys need to change your methods, WAY too predictable. Boring.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 08, 2013, 04:15:47 PM
http://www.bcsalmonfacts.ca/forum/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 09, 2013, 07:00:48 AM
Pravda 2.0
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on April 09, 2013, 07:43:04 AM
Pravda 2.0

Comparing those who disagree to Communists. The discussion inches slowly but surely towards its unavoidable conclusion. #GodwinsLaw 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 09, 2013, 09:27:59 AM
Well I found prudent advice on that site. Even if it's a couple years old.





"You might find it interesting to note that the original BC salmon facts facebook page had a lot of very informative posts on it that attempted to carefully elucidate the pros and cons of allowing salmon farms to operate in BC.

Unfortunately much of the posts that revealed cons were deleted or censored when the site watchdogs were unable to effectively argue against them.

This site is not the place to explore the issue in an unbiased manner. If you truly are interested in the subject and aren't a fabricated post placed here by the bc salmon facts website as an easy lead in, then please explore all the available information sources, consider that the bc salmon farmers are not here for us, that is only the spin they want you to fall for. "

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 09, 2013, 09:44:45 AM
Comparing those who disagree to Communists. The discussion inches slowly but surely towards its unavoidable conclusion. #GodwinsLaw

Try replacing communists with propagandists. ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 10, 2013, 03:15:13 PM
http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/opinion/story.html?id=72822b54-d384-4ff5-bae9-9b466c938bf3
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: curious on April 11, 2013, 02:46:01 AM
Try replacing communists with propagandists. ;)
Yep, even John Fredriksen {GOOGLE}, the shipping and oil drilling magnate and apparently the largest shareholder in Marine Harvest, has been reported as saying the fish feedlots and wild salmon should not be near one another. 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 11, 2013, 11:45:00 AM
http://bamp.ca/pages/home.php
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on April 11, 2013, 12:02:10 PM
Another great link Fisherbob, thanks.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 13, 2013, 08:09:23 AM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/04/10/alexandra-morton-rewrites-her-own-history/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 17, 2013, 08:05:34 AM
More fibs?
http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/04/16/salmon-confidentials-biggest-fib/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on April 17, 2013, 02:11:34 PM
More fibs?
http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/04/16/salmon-confidentials-biggest-fib/
Yup, some beauties this time.  Amazingly, some people still send her money for producing this stuff.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 17, 2013, 05:46:44 PM
Not any more of my money Dave. The comment at the bottom of this one is interesting.
 
http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/04/17/the-character-assassination-of-simon-jones/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 17, 2013, 06:15:06 PM
"Thanks for commenting Dave! Please feel free to share this blog around so more people can get the facts."

A hard won victory on salmonconfidential. Although I get the feeling they was going down the same road anyway.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on April 17, 2013, 08:21:44 PM
appreciate the sharing troutbreath :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 20, 2013, 08:29:35 AM
War of the worlds. Good story.
http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/opinion/story.html?id=9c4ac6ff-118c-4711-af93-5782be1a9a7b
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 20, 2013, 01:47:49 PM
Who needs science?  I thought the video was funny. If you do not like a few bad words in a comedy, do not watch it. :)
 http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/04/19/science-i-dont-need-no-stinking-science/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 21, 2013, 09:45:53 AM
Yawn- Every piece of propaganda is from the fish farm companies or their toadies. Pathetic and boring.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 21, 2013, 02:19:56 PM
Yawn- Every piece of propaganda is from the fish farm companies or their toadies. Pathetic and boring.
Just as pathetic as my donations going to nothing i guess.
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/blog/here-we-go-again-alexandra-morton-%E2%80%9Cquitting%E2%80%9D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 21, 2013, 04:54:44 PM
Independent science Sonny ;). Have some of that hogwash peer reviewed.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 21, 2013, 08:39:45 PM
Independent science Sonny ;). Have some of that hogwash peer reviewed.
Thanks but I have donated enough to Ms Morton to get hogwash. Time for investment change for our children's future :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 22, 2013, 04:37:45 PM
http://tumblerridgenews.com/?p=10703

Good article from Chris posted on another thread. Peruse and digest.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on April 22, 2013, 05:56:00 PM
http://tumblerridgenews.com/?p=10703

Good article from Chris posted on another thread. Peruse and digest.
Perused, digested, and nature is taking it's course and this will end up where it belongs.  Awesome journalism (who knew TR had a newspaper?) and an even better photo :D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 22, 2013, 08:45:22 PM
The film twister.
http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/04/22/filmmakers-unwittingly-disprove-their-own-hypothesis/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 23, 2013, 08:57:50 AM
Miller time.
http://salmonconfidential.com/misquoting-miller/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Easywater on April 23, 2013, 02:16:47 PM
For a guy that claimed to be against fish farms in the beginning, you sure have turned into a shill for them.

I think that was the plan all along.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 23, 2013, 04:04:00 PM
For a guy that claimed to be against fish farms in the beginning, you sure have turned into a shill for them.

I think that was the plan all along.
Sorry Easywater, that was not planned at all. I feel my donations were going to save wild salmon. I see now they only go to making videos and informing us with twisted tales. If Morton goes to this extent to get attention with a movie, i sure can not trust her science. I wish I saw this a few years ago. Lesson learned here. Research before investing. Really, I wish I knew then, what I know now.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=269
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on April 23, 2013, 04:56:06 PM
Quote
Thankfully, she is become more and more isolated. In April 2013, Alexandra Morton’s name was removed from the College of Applied Biology of British Columbia. She is no longer a Professional Biologist.


Must have been the movie that was the last straw.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on April 23, 2013, 07:44:01 PM
Must have been the movie that was the last straw.
About time she lost that accreditation as it was most likely embarrassing to responsible biologists, Canada wide.
It really is mind boggling how some people seem to need this scapegoat known as the danger's of salmon farms for declining salmon returns, but continue and indeed demand harvest rates and shares of economical and social aspirations to kill wild salmon IE, commercial, sports, aboriginal fisheries, sports shops, guides, tackle companies, fish and game clubs/ societies and many others who firmly believe they are not at fault.
Fisherbob has offered a lot of links for people to see what Ms. Morton is all about ....  IMO she has harmed future wild BC salmon with her demand to halt salmon farming and to only eat wild, because there are virtually no wild salmon populations in BC able to withstand increased harvest pressures, by any user group. Having said that I expect a larger market for FN caught salmon now, with all that brings, thanks to Morton.
There are however, lots of ranched Alaskan salmon out there in the Pacific competing with BC fish – could she perhaps be advocating for increasing that consumption?   To me that's not in BC’s best economic interest but my opinion aside, if not from Alaska, where do these non farmed salmon come from?

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 23, 2013, 08:23:26 PM
Maybe land based tanks? This paranoia about anti fish farming is getting unpalatable. 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: gilbey on April 23, 2013, 08:36:40 PM
For a guy that claimed to be against fish farms in the beginning, you sure have turned into a shill for them.

I think that was the plan all along.

I agree Easywater, thats not hard to see.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on April 23, 2013, 09:12:59 PM
About time she lost that accreditation as it was most likely embarrassing to responsible biologists, Canada wide.
It really is mind boggling how some people seem to need this scapegoat known as the danger's of salmon farms for declining salmon returns, but continue and indeed demand harvest rates and shares of economical and social aspirations to kill wild salmon IE, commercial, sports, aboriginal fisheries, sports shops, guides, tackle companies, fish and game clubs/ societies and many others who firmly believe they are not at fault.
Fisherbob has offered a lot of links for people to see what Ms. Morton is all about ....  IMO she has harmed future wild BC salmon with her demand to halt salmon farming and to only eat wild, because there are virtually no wild salmon populations in BC able to withstand increased harvest pressures, by any user group. Having said that I expect a larger market for FN caught salmon now, with all that brings, thanks to Morton.
There are however, lots of ranched Alaskan salmon out there in the Pacific competing with BC fish – could she perhaps be advocating for increasing that consumption?   To me that's not in BC’s best economic interest but my opinion aside, if not from Alaska, where do these non farmed salmon come from?



It was not unexpected that we would finally hear a rant from one of the pro feedlot boys....  especially since a few of them have become strangely silent.

If the rant was prompted by the rumor that Alex's name was "removed from the College of Applied Biology of British Columbia", perhaps you could provide a link to support that.  I suspect that the basis for that rumor was probably found on the same site that Fisherbob seems to get his "facts".

It's too bad that the folks that post on that site don't even have the courage to identify themselves....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on April 23, 2013, 09:24:00 PM
It was not unexpected that we would finally hear a rant from one of the pro feedlot boys....  especially since a few of them have become strangely silent.

If the rant was prompted by the rumor that Alex's name was "removed from the College of Applied Biology of British Columbia", perhaps you could provide a link to support that.  I suspect that the basis for that rumor was probably found on the same site that Fisherbob seems to get his "facts".

It's too bad that the folks that post on that site don't even have the courage to identify themselves....
I have posted on that site and my name is Dave Barnes  ..who are you?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on April 23, 2013, 09:39:14 PM
I have posted on that site and my name is Dave Barnes  ..who are you?

cue Jeopardy theme music.......
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on April 24, 2013, 06:48:51 AM
I have posted on that site and my name is Dave Barnes  ..who are you?

I already know who you are and you know who i am.......

Are you or aquapaloosa going to provide some evidence of the rumor you're spreading about Morton????? .......... or will you just continue to throw out allegations without any factual basis?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 24, 2013, 09:01:11 AM
Good feedback and debating on this site
"sixth; “groups like forest ethics” have been successful because of the desire to work with industry the public, and stakeholders in finding the middle ground and compromise necessary to find creative solutions to complex problems. Morton refuses to participate in the debate and continues to insist on removing all farms from the coast. no compromises no middle ground."
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2012/09/26/alexandra-mortons-heartland-institute/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 24, 2013, 09:32:42 PM
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/bloom_county_gorbachev_zpsef7ac501.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/bloom_county_gorbachev_zpsef7ac501.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 25, 2013, 08:58:25 AM
Is this why Morton says nothing about the Atlantic feedlots in Washington or the fish farms in Alaska?  Just asking.
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/funders-of-hype-against-salmon-farmers


http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/sites/default/files/Follow%20the%20money%20feature.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 25, 2013, 03:23:11 PM
http://www.packard.org/what-we-fund/conservation-and-science/

Get yer facts in a pile a read something other than that self serving propaganda from the dirty fish crowd. I just looked up the #1 bad boy foundation for the dirty fish crowd  and that foundation seems to do all sorts of good things. The web site you keep using as a referance is completely biased. But maybe you like biased :-\
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 26, 2013, 06:30:18 AM
http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/2013/04/25/TideTurningSalmonFarm/

I was especially shocked to see how little the feedlots contribute economically according to government agencies, not fish farm pravda. Back to fisherbawb and some self serving bologna. ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on April 26, 2013, 07:59:29 AM
http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/2013/04/25/TideTurningSalmonFarm/

I was especially shocked to see how little the feedlots contribute economically according to government agencies, not fish farm pravda. Back to fisherbawb and some self serving bologna. ;)

Interesting article... thanks for posting:  "the industry should be concerned that the jig is up for the defense upon which it traditionally falls back - namely, the "jobs" argument............. For instance, in 2011, according to DFO and Stats BC, sport fishing produced revenues of $925 million, contributing $325 million to BC's GDP and 8,400 direct jobs. Compare that with the Norwegian-dominated aquaculture industry, which produced $469 million in revenues (that's for all aquaculture, of which salmon farms are only one component). Salmon farms specifically contributed just $8.5 million to our GDP."

It does make more sense to have more folks out there trying to "catch" fish rather than having Norwegian owned feedlots polluting our waters and infecting our wild salmon.....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on April 26, 2013, 08:20:16 AM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/111365508874859/permalink/600614583283280/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on April 26, 2013, 08:32:44 AM
Someone should suggest to Gillis that he get his facts straight.

The real numbers can be found here:http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/Files/0c4250f8-e4ee-45b9-b1fa-247ae1a98590/BritishColumbiasFisheriesandAquacultureSector2012Edition.pdf (http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/Files/0c4250f8-e4ee-45b9-b1fa-247ae1a98590/BritishColumbiasFisheriesandAquacultureSector2012Edition.pdf).
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on April 26, 2013, 09:14:52 AM
Someone should suggest to Gillis that he get his facts straight.

The real numbers can be found here:http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/Files/0c4250f8-e4ee-45b9-b1fa-247ae1a98590/BritishColumbiasFisheriesandAquacultureSector2012Edition.pdf (http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/Files/0c4250f8-e4ee-45b9-b1fa-247ae1a98590/BritishColumbiasFisheriesandAquacultureSector2012Edition.pdf).

Welcome back... and thanks for posting that. It appears that Gillis does have his facts straight, as he was obviously quoting from this same publication.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on April 26, 2013, 09:38:47 AM
Perhaps you should try reading it before declaring it supports Gillis and his misrepresentations.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on April 26, 2013, 09:53:18 AM
Surprise...surprise....AF not reading the whole article?  Say it's not so!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 26, 2013, 11:24:26 AM
It sure looks like we are all full of propaganda TB. And this is why Morton will no longer see my donations.

http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/04/24/deformities-more-lie-sa-and-european-viruses/

"Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on April 26, 2013, 12:18:03 PM
I see the cheering section has arrived....  ;D

I did read the BC Government produced stats, Did you boys read it or are you just reading the links Fisherbob is providing?

Gillis statement: "For instance, in 2011, according to DFO and Stats BC, sport fishing produced revenues of $925 million, contributing $325 million to BC's GDP and 8,400 direct jobs."
BC government statement: "Sport fishing contributed $325.7 million to the province’s GDP in 2011, a slight decrease (-0.2%) from the previous year.
. Approximately 8,400 people were employed by the sport fishing industry in 2011, up from 8,000 in 2010.
. Sport fishing revenues were estimated at $936.5 million in 2011, up 0.8% over the 2010 value."

Gillis statement:"Salmon farms specifically contributed just $8.5 million to our GDP."
BC government statement: "Gross domestic product in the aquaculture industry fell 7.2% to $61.9 million in 2011, driven by a decline to $8.5 million in the salmon farming industry (-7.3%), ......."

It's a shame that we allow a business that contributes a measly $8.5 million to BC's GDP, while allowing it to destroy an industry that contributes $325 million to BC's GDP!

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on April 26, 2013, 01:13:03 PM
As suggested, if you really want to understand the information being presented you need to read the paper, not just the summary. Apparently Gillis didn't feel the need to read it before pronouncing either and though you both proclaim to be experts on the industry, he looks the bigger fool since his pronouncements reach a much larger audience.

Top of page 32:

"Salmon farming, the largest industry within aquaculture, generated $58.5 million of GDP in 2011..........".

Also worth noting is that freshwater fisheries accounted for $400 million of that sport fishing total and 1/3 of the GDP attributable to sports fishing arises from non-angling activities so we aren't really talking about revenues of $925 million or GDP contribution of $325 million from saltwater related fishing.

As important as the numbers this particular report provides is an understanding of the methodology used to arrive at them. While numbers for aquaculture, seafood processing and capture fisheries are reasonably precise estimates based on contribution defined by specific industry classifications (ie. the GDP arising from the processing of the fish raised by the aquaculture industry are included in processing rather than attributed to aquaculture), the sports fishing industry is a rather nebulously defined sector and therefore the GDP contribution attributed to it is estimated. Those estimates include such things as non-angling related shopping, transportation, food services, accommodation and travel. Since these spinoff effects are not included in determining the GDP contribution of any of the other three industries in the sector, the comparison is not apples to apples and the numbers must be looked at in that context.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on April 26, 2013, 01:24:55 PM
No need to start throwing insults and causing another perfectly good thread to be shut down....

In most circles people would agree that the summary of a report summarizes the contents of the report. Gillis is absolutely in his rights to quote the summary of a BC stats report.

Neither he nor I are fools for doing so.....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on April 26, 2013, 02:08:47 PM
Gillis is absolutely in the wrong as are you to quote information he has neither confirmed nor given any thought to simply because it supports his point of view. Even a modicum of critical thinking would suggest that the number of $8.5 million GDP arising from an industry with revenues nearing $500 million is not realistic and requires further investigation. What makes it worse is that the correct information was available immediately following the obvious typo at the small cost of a bit more reading.

The obvious course of action when presented with proof of your error would be to acknowledge your error. Instead, you try to justify it...........
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on April 26, 2013, 02:24:17 PM
Gillis is absolutely in the wrong as are you to quote information he has neither confirmed nor given any thought to simply because it supports his point of view. Even a modicum of critical thinking would suggest that the number of $8.5 million GDP arising from an industry with revenues nearing $500 million is not realistic and requires further investigation. What makes it worse is that the correct information was available immediately following the obvious typo at the small cost of a bit more reading.

The obvious course of action when presented with proof of your error would be to acknowledge your error. Instead, you try to justify it...........

I suggest you take your protests to the BC Stats office..... http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/Contact/BCStatsPhoneList.aspx (http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/Contact/BCStatsPhoneList.aspx)

The report was published in 2012...  if there were "errors" in the report it highly likely that they would have been corrected by now. Besides if there was such an error, isn't it likely that someone from the feedlot industry would have picked it up by now????

I know the truth sometimes hurts....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on April 26, 2013, 03:32:57 PM
There is no need to complain to the statistics office. The correct information is available in the body of the report. The error is on YOUR part for not taking the trouble to read the report; for assuming that reading an executive summary would make you an expert and for making untrue claims without doing the required due diligence.

I don't care why you made the error; that is completely irrelevant. The relevant point is that you did and the claims you posted about salmon farming contribution are undeniably incorrect.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on April 26, 2013, 03:37:07 PM
If that's the end of your tantrum, let's turn this thread back to Fisherbob so he can continue to post content from sources you may feel are more reliable than BC Stats.....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 26, 2013, 03:40:50 PM
"Ottawa is sparing the aquaculture sector from austerity measures, extending for another year a program launched in 2008 aimed at enhancing “regulatory certainty” and “improving the conditions for a sustainable aquaculture sector.” The price tag for the renewal is $57.5 million over five years starting in 2013-14.

Mary Ellen Walling, executive director of the BC Salmon Farmers Association, welcomed the funding earmarked for aquaculture."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fisherbob and all tax paying Canadians are giving money to the Fish Farmers though. I would take that off any revenues that the fish farmers say their making.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on April 26, 2013, 03:57:15 PM
"Ottawa is sparing the aquaculture sector from austerity measures, extending for another year a program launched in 2008 aimed at enhancing “regulatory certainty” and “improving the conditions for a sustainable aquaculture sector.” The price tag for the renewal is $57.5 million over five years starting in 2013-14.

Mary Ellen Walling, executive director of the BC Salmon Farmers Association, welcomed the funding earmarked for aquaculture."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fisherbob and all tax paying Canadians are giving money to the Fish Farmers though. I would take that off any revenues that the fish farmers say their making.



Government handouts would be subtracted from the GDP generated by the feedlots, so perhaps that is the reason the GDP is a measly $8.5 million....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on April 26, 2013, 04:49:35 PM
If that's the end of your tantrum, let's turn this thread back to Fisherbob so he can continue to post content from sources you may feel are more reliable than BC Stats.....

Again you are trying to shift your responsibility.

The problem is not that the data from the stats office is unreliable. The problem is that you didn't bother to confirm your claims by reading the data they provided before you started spouting off and you aren't able to stand up and take responsibility for that.

It's not BC Stats that has a credibility problem.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 26, 2013, 08:16:57 PM
If that's the end of your tantrum, let's turn this thread back to Fisherbob so he can continue to post content from sources you may feel are more reliable than BC Stats.....
Thank you AF. The messengers best defense is knowing what is said of them. Trust should be there to the end. But not from me. Scroll up on this one.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=278#comments
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 26, 2013, 09:33:46 PM
MORE PRAVDA!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 26, 2013, 09:46:01 PM
MORE PRAVDA!
You should know it all to well as I have found out donating to Mortons passion. :)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravda
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 27, 2013, 07:34:08 AM
PEER REVIEWED SCIENCE PLEASE! not smear reviewed claptrap. I'm not gullible enough to bother with self serving emissions from the north end of a south bound cow.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 27, 2013, 03:01:10 PM
PEER REVIEWED SCIENCE PLEASE! not smear reviewed claptrap. I'm not gullible enough to bother with self serving emissions from the north end of a south bound cow.
From who would that be NB? Morton?
" In April 2013, Alexandra Morton’s name was removed from the College of Applied Biology of British Columbia. She is no longer a Professional Biologist."
https://www.cab-bc.org/membership-list
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 28, 2013, 03:59:56 AM
So that means, as of April 2013 she automatically forgets everything she learned at biologists school.  ::)  You see sonny, I'm talking from first hand experience of the devastation a salmon pooplot brought to the Saddle Island area in my native home, not some self serving e-rag. The area used to be a prime lobster fishing area.Now- nothing. I come from a family of fisherman, know lots of fisherman from that area. I know what I'm talking about and have seen it with my own eyes. You don't and quote propaganda from the "industry", claiming it to be gospel truth. It isn't.

Got your FACTS straight?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 28, 2013, 08:05:38 AM
I would think this would defiantly question Morton's past and present work ethics. As for "You don't and quote propaganda from the "industry", claiming it to be gospel truth." I don't and I do not expect any one to take my posts as gospel truth, the same as I no longer take Morton's gospel as truth. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 01, 2013, 07:39:47 AM
http://www.campbellrivermirror.com/news/205471871.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 01, 2013, 10:35:29 AM
I hope people are not dumb enough to vote for that Bob Bray clown.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 01, 2013, 02:22:52 PM
I hope people are not dumb enough to vote for that Bob Bray clown.
People do strange things troutbreath ... hell, I heard people were still donating to Ms. Morton :o go figure, lol!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 02, 2013, 07:46:22 AM
People do strange things troutbreath ... hell, I heard people were still donating to Ms. Morton :o go figure, lol!


Yes and some are silly enough to take industry rags like Salmon Farm Science as gospel, even though they may come across as intelligent individuals. Weird eh Dave?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 03, 2013, 10:26:16 AM
Interesting look at things.
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/anti-salmon-farming-activist-morton-corrected-about-bc-salmon-farming-jobs
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 03, 2013, 10:42:56 AM
Interesting look at things.
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/anti-salmon-farming-activist-morton-corrected-about-bc-salmon-farming-jobs

I wonder if Grant Warkington, Communication Officer, Mainstream Canada and a certain poster on this board are either the same people or just similar people from the feedlot industry who are not reading the reports they use to support their arguments.....

Grant's link to the BC Stats report shows that the feedlot industry's contribution to BC's GDP is only $8.5 million, while Grant is using $62 million as the GDP number.... 

Perhaps as "communications officer" he just has a habit of exaggerating things.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 03, 2013, 11:09:24 AM
That certain poster is most likely someone well connected with the dirty fish group. Shocked if he was not. ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 03, 2013, 11:38:07 AM
The only thing that is shocking to me, is people that presume and take it as fact. Dream on boys. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 05, 2013, 08:59:13 PM
Get out and do it :)
http://www.timescolonist.com/monitor-getting-out-to-vote-is-easier-than-ever-1.146267
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 06, 2013, 05:40:02 PM
Morton is too late trying to get donations from the US public. Going to be hard to dupe them.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/may13/salmon0513.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 07, 2013, 08:36:15 AM
http://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/letters/salmon-farm-diseases-were-quickly-reported-1.147096


http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?pageId=76&article_id=99106
"What the activists don’t realize is that the relationship between two veterinarians is not much different than that between two lawyers- client confidentiality is a basic principle of importance to both professions. And in a recent article in the Times Colonist, Judith Lavoie explains that fish farmers in British Columbia have already released more information about the health of their fish than what they are legally required to do;"

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 07, 2013, 08:53:40 AM
LOL,  difference is that when lawyers have a "confidentiality" agreement, wild salmon are not dying.....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 07, 2013, 09:34:19 AM
Then it's past time all the information is released. These are OUR waters, not theirs.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 07, 2013, 09:55:33 AM
Then it's past time all the information is released. These are OUR waters, not theirs.

well said....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 07, 2013, 10:40:55 AM
LOL,  difference is that when lawyers have a "confidentiality" agreement, wild salmon are not dying.....
One more time af ... what wild salmon are dying?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 07, 2013, 11:46:23 AM
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/03/27/pol-aquaculture-regulations-before-cohen-commission-response.html

for Dave
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 07, 2013, 12:10:39 PM
One more time af ... what wild salmon are dying?

using a quote from one of the feedlot boys......

Five minutes of your time with Google and the search function here would vastly increase your understanding of this .....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 07, 2013, 12:19:15 PM
using a quote from one of the feedlot boys......

LOL! Funny how that doesn't apply to EVERYONE.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 07, 2013, 12:37:10 PM
LOL! Funny how that doesn't apply to EVERYONE.

Yup ....   :o   ::)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 07, 2013, 12:40:49 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/03/27/pol-aquaculture-regulations-before-cohen-commission-response.html

for Dave

Old news (must be about time to recycle the PCB story or perhaps the sediment under the net pens or,or,or ... and today, my favourite to date, escaped Atlantics will compete with steelhead ::)) but just for the hell of it I'll ask for the last time, what wild salmon stocks are being killed by salmon farms? ... just one example from one of you 3 would be great.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 07, 2013, 01:23:17 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Crosby

for Dave........on a wing and a prayer :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 07, 2013, 01:33:50 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Crosby

for Dave........on a wing and a prayer :)
Brilliant response troutbreath, appreciated.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 07, 2013, 01:42:01 PM
Troutbreath.....  next time you respond to a feedlot boy, you'll need to do a Dr Morty and get your response approved before you post...
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on May 07, 2013, 02:02:34 PM
and then watching foreign companies kill off our wild salmon with their feedlots.
Name one stock of wild salmon being harmed by salmon farms.
One more time af ... what wild salmon are dying?
Lol.....  but you won't answer the question.
A simple answer and some support for the question I asked would have been sufficient ....
I appreciate that you ....would like to deflect the question
using a quote from one of the feedlot boys......

"Five minutes of your time with Google and the search function here would vastly increase your understanding of this"
Lol.....  but you won't answer the question.




Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on May 07, 2013, 02:27:09 PM
So to get back to the point:

Why won't you answer Dave's question?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 07, 2013, 03:36:01 PM
perhaps the sediment under the net pens


Then maybe Dave you might take the time to tell me why lobster stocks are undeniably being compromised on the east coast? What is the root cause that areas around open net pens that used to be quite productive (for generations) are utterly barren now? Remember, lobsters are bottom feeders.Naw- wouldn't have anything to do with the "emissions" from the feedlot would it? I can't find any other reason.....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 07, 2013, 04:03:11 PM
Nova, you know I'm talking about BC here.  I have never denied Atlantic salmon farms in areas with indigenous Atlantic stocks, including your stomping grounds, are not a serious issue to wild Atlantics, mainly through the loss of genetic diversity.

The topic is Atlantic's farmed in BC.  Apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 07, 2013, 05:06:09 PM
Nova, you know I'm talking about BC here.  I have never denied Atlantic salmon farms in areas with indigenous Atlantic stocks, including your stomping grounds, are not a serious issue to wild Atlantics, mainly through the loss of genetic diversity.

The topic is Atlantic's farmed in BC.  Apples and oranges.

So you do concede there is a strong effect on fish and shellfish populations there. Now why, logically, doesn't or wouldn't that apply here?  And the farms have no effect here? That doesn't make any sense at all. Apples and apples. Oranges and oranges.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 07, 2013, 05:23:37 PM
So you do concede there is a strong effect on fish and shellfish populations there. Now why, logically, doesn't or wouldn't that apply here?  And the farms have no effect here? That doesn't make any sense at all. Apples and apples. Oranges and oranges.

In BC the government has muzzled the scientists and the feedlot industry has intimidated people like Dr Morty. When logic suggests that BC is no different than any other ocean in Norway, Scotland or the East coast of Canada they argue it's apples and oranges. It's called denial, and the motivation is money.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 07, 2013, 05:54:40 PM
In BC (Canada actually) the government has muzzled the scientists and the feedlot industry has intimidated people like Dr Morty (Dr Marty) When logic suggests that BC is no different than any other ocean in Norway, Scotland or the East coast of Canada they argue it's apples and oranges. It's called denial, and the motivation is money.

fixed it for you ;)  Go back a post or so to read why BC is indeed different than Norway, Scotland or down East.  Surely you didn't forget that biological thingy I mentioned?



Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on May 07, 2013, 07:51:26 PM
\When logic suggests that BC is no different than any other ocean in Norway, Scotland or the East coast of Canada they argue it's apples and oranges.

Spoken like a true bank boy. I know you are deathly afraid of Google, but maybe try looking up "ecosystem" and you may shed some light on how the North Sea differs from the Salish Sea.

In BC the government has muzzled the scientists and the feedlot industry has intimidated people like Dr Morty.

And yet when you get the opportunity to interact with government scientists online who are free to speak without "muzzling" and intimidation, you choose to ignore them.

PS- I did a google search to try to find some specific stocks that are dying due to fish farms. Seems like there's a lack of specifics, but lots of generalized bellyaching. Here's the best I could find for you. See what you can make of it ;)
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0060033#pbio-0060033-t001
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 07, 2013, 09:40:21 PM
Can't buy that Dave. Poison is poison. I'm not sure poison recognizes the Atlantic from the Pacific. When an area is poisoned, it may never recover.But at least you recognize that the feedlots are putting out some wretched things in the water. You're waking up! ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 08, 2013, 09:18:12 AM
http://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/letters/salmon-farm-diseases-were-quickly-reported-1.147096
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 08, 2013, 01:40:05 PM
Still waiting for Dave to explain why the farms are emitting toxins on the east coast and the toxins are magically not toxic to other species here.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 08, 2013, 04:46:28 PM
Still waiting for Dave to explain why the farms are emitting toxins on the east coast and the toxins are magically not toxic to other species here.
Read my post.  I spoke about salmon farming in BC, nothing about toxins or poisons, whatever they are... perhaps you mean SLICE?   Please explain what I am to explain.
To repeat, I do believe Atlantic salmon farms have impacted wild Atlantic stocks, mainly through escapees breeding with a meagre wild population.  I also believe we on the west coast are in an enviable position for Atlantic salmon farming because here, that cannot happen. 
For me to add more would be redundant because it's all been said before.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 09, 2013, 06:47:37 AM
Then Dave, tell me why the lobster near the Saddle Island site have disappeared completely. The area in question was there for generations and they always caught there, despite a lot of pressure on the stocks. Then a feedlot was sited and now- NOTHING. Put some logic to that.You feedlot boys are gonna love me soon as I'm going to be off work for a while getting a torn bicep fixed. Lots of time to debunk........ ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 09, 2013, 03:02:55 PM
And the plot thickens. This is turning out to be really good entertainment so far. :)
 http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/news090513.php
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 10, 2013, 08:50:10 AM
Just for Dave ;)

http://livingoceanssociety.blogspot.ca/2010/10/sea-lice-treatment-kills-adult-lobsters.html

http://nsapes.ca/10-reasons-why-premier-dexter-should-halt-open-pen-fish-farming

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/may/10/marine-harvest-salmon-farm-scottish-loch

http://responsibleaquaculture.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on May 10, 2013, 10:15:30 AM
Lobsters in trouble?   hmmm...

(http://mlcalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/USCanadaLandingsChart.jpg)
http://mlcalliance.org/2013/03/06/lobster-landings-in-maine-and-canada-going-up-up-up/ (http://mlcalliance.org/2013/03/06/lobster-landings-in-maine-and-canada-going-up-up-up/)


Lobster fishermen in trouble?

"Too much of good thing is plaguing Nova Scotia's lobster fishery. Thousands of pounds of live lobster are sitting in crates floating in the holding bays at Newell Lobster in Yarmouth. Fishermen have been hauling in a record harvest since the winter season began last week, but the large catches are flooding the market and driving down prices. The glut has pushed down the price paid at the wharf. This week it sits at $3 a pound.

Captains said at that price, they can't even pay the bills, but a call for an industry shut down to force prices up drew little support on the wharf on Wednesday. Plant supervisor Stephen Saulnier said both his workers and the market can't handle the catches from the first week of the season. The plant is running 24 hours a day, with workers weighing and grading lobster for export. About 80 per cent of the catch ends up on tables in the Unites States.
"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/12/05/ns-lobster-price.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/12/05/ns-lobster-price.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 10, 2013, 11:00:01 AM
Lobsters in trouble?   hmmm...

(http://mlcalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/USCanadaLandingsChart.jpg)
http://mlcalliance.org/2013/03/06/lobster-landings-in-maine-and-canada-going-up-up-up/ (http://mlcalliance.org/2013/03/06/lobster-landings-in-maine-and-canada-going-up-up-up/)


Lobster fishermen in trouble?

"Too much of good thing is plaguing Nova Scotia's lobster fishery. Thousands of pounds of live lobster are sitting in crates floating in the holding bays at Newell Lobster in Yarmouth. Fishermen have been hauling in a record harvest since the winter season began last week, but the large catches are flooding the market and driving down prices. The glut has pushed down the price paid at the wharf. This week it sits at $3 a pound.

Captains said at that price, they can't even pay the bills, but a call for an industry shut down to force prices up drew little support on the wharf on Wednesday. Plant supervisor Stephen Saulnier said both his workers and the market can't handle the catches from the first week of the season. The plant is running 24 hours a day, with workers weighing and grading lobster for export. About 80 per cent of the catch ends up on tables in the Unites States.
"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/12/05/ns-lobster-price.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/12/05/ns-lobster-price.html)


See Novabonker......  It's ok for the feedlots to kill the lobsters, cause there are lots of them!  ???

Hmmm,  seems to be the same philosophy they apply to the wild salmon.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on May 10, 2013, 12:19:14 PM
See Novabonker......  It's ok for the fishermen to kill the lobsters even if they are paying for the privilege to do so, cause there are lots of them!

Hmmm,  seems to be the same philosophy they apply to the wild salmon.

Fixed it for you.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 11, 2013, 08:24:54 AM
You can't twist it or spin it Abs- I'm not talking about the industry in general, but areas where the feedlots are sited. Nice try, but not gonna work.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on May 11, 2013, 08:55:28 AM
You can't make the case that lobsters are threatened by fish farms or anything else when each successive year brings a new record harvest of lobsters.

Unless, of course, the harvests are a product of industry pressure in the face of contradictory scientific opinion which would lead to the natural conclusion that the lobsters are being codded. Even if that weren't the case, the harvest is on a trajectory that will eventually land it there. Spiraling industry capacity chases ever-increasing harvests which chase ever-increasing industry capacity, pressure mounts to keep the over-capacity running, stocks start to respond to excessive harvests, competition for the declining numbers gets fiercer and over-harvesting climbs further until the whole thing collapses. It's not like we haven't seen the pattern before and in the same region.

But of course, we all know it's the fish farms fault.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 12, 2013, 07:21:25 AM
You can't make the case that lobsters are threatened by fish farms or anything else when each successive year brings a new record harvest of lobsters.

Read my post - I stated that the area around the feedlots weren't producing. Is it OK to crap on just one section of your lawn if the rest is green?

Unless, of course, the harvests are a product of industry pressure in the face of contradictory scientific opinion which would lead to the natural conclusion that the lobsters are being codded. Even if that weren't the case, the harvest is on a trajectory that will eventually land it there. Spiraling industry capacity chases ever-increasing harvests which chase ever-increasing industry capacity, pressure mounts to keep the over-capacity running, stocks start to respond to excessive harvests, competition for the declining numbers gets fiercer and over-harvesting climbs further until the whole thing collapses. It's not like we haven't seen the pattern before and in the same region.

And who was saying it's all good? The federal government. John Crosby, as I remember was in charge.

But of course, we all know it's the fish farms fault.

Good to see you're coming around

Repaired.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 12, 2013, 08:14:40 AM

But of course, we all know it's the fish farms fault.



Good to see you're coming around


....... and I mistakenly thought he was just being sarcastic..
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 13, 2013, 03:05:05 PM
"Justice Bruce Cohen’s report, released in 2012 after years of investigation, clearly said there is no smoking gun when it comes to explaining what is causing Fraser River sockeye populations to vary."
http://www.vancouverobserver.com/opinion/salmon-farmers-association-says-bc-can-have-both-wild-salmon-and-farmed-salmon
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 14, 2013, 10:17:16 AM
Aquaculture development in Canada. Starts on page 40.
http://www.resourcesquarterly.com/issue/2013/Summer/files/mobile/mobile.html#1
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 14, 2013, 03:19:52 PM
Fisherbob your last link really says nothing. So why post it?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 14, 2013, 05:30:26 PM
Fisherbob your last link really says nothing. So why post it?


Are you kidding TB - That was his best post ever - it summed up all the pro feedlot arguments that make sense. ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 15, 2013, 05:19:51 PM

Are you kidding TB - That was his best post ever - it summed up all the pro feedlot arguments that make sense. ;D
Glad you liked it NB :). Here are three more for you to debunk. Btw I hope for your speedy recovery :). And that is no joke :)
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/new-blogs-salmon-facts-are-sacred-alexandra-morton
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 16, 2013, 09:33:35 AM
Anything to make a good show.
http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/05/15/dead-fish-in-the-parking-lot/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: EZ_Rolling on May 16, 2013, 11:16:52 AM
If we could get the feedlots to provide viable fish for sampling then there would be no issue right.

Ok now go get a viable fish to do independent testing and see how far you get.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 16, 2013, 06:01:29 PM
Why just "farmfreshsalmon" as a superlative. Why not "brimmingwithtastychemicalsfreshsalmon".


just sayin
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 17, 2013, 10:23:09 AM
Did Morton get it right ?
http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=8399387
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 17, 2013, 02:29:37 PM
Did Morton get it right ?
http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=8399387
Fisherbob, do you have a link to what Morton wrote on May 8?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 17, 2013, 02:46:04 PM
Fisherbob, do you have a link to what Morton wrote on May 8?
Pretty sure it is this one Dave.
http://www.courierislander.com/opinion/letters/tools-of-the-trade-1.148246

Ian's response.
http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=8399387
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 17, 2013, 03:32:05 PM
"Ian Roberts works for Marine Harvest in "communications and media" and so it's his job to refute the film sweeping across North America revealing his industry and its government handlers in a bad light."



If your buying into Mr Roberts unbiased opion, I'm selling Lions Gate bridge if your interested.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 17, 2013, 03:36:35 PM
"Ian Roberts works for Marine Harvest in "communications and media" and so it's his job to refute the film sweeping across North America revealing his industry and its government handlers in a bad light."



If your buying into Mr Roberts unbiased opion, I'm selling Lions Gate bridge if your interested.
Can I get a better deal if I donated to Morton's propaganda again? :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 17, 2013, 04:25:19 PM
Pretty sure it is this one Dave.
http://www.courierislander.com/opinion/letters/tools-of-the-trade-1.148246

Ian's response.
http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=8399387
Yup, that reads about right.  Thanks Fb
Ms. Morton seems rather quiet since the night of the 14th ... sure she is busy conjuring up something interesting though :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: gilbey on May 17, 2013, 10:10:23 PM
Can I get a better deal if I donated to Morton's propaganda again? :)
Fisherbob, If I donate to a cause I don't expect anything in return except that my donation helped further that cause, however you seem to expect a deal or something in return personaly for your donation to the cause, above and beyond what any normal person would expect. I don't get your reasoning, it's like you are saying you did not recieve a personal return for your donation.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 18, 2013, 08:20:34 AM
When I donate to a cause I expect truth and honesty.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 18, 2013, 11:17:35 AM
Is eating "wild" Alaska salmon better for the environment and the resources used to farm them?
http://www.watershed-watch.org/publications/files/AKhatcheries.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 19, 2013, 11:47:41 AM
When I donate to a cause I expect truth and honesty.


So you quote fish farm propaganda?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPuccvF_p3o
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 19, 2013, 12:05:56 PM
2 touring old boys rugby clubs from Japan graced our club last week. I'm the social secretary (read cook) and I had a lot of folks to feed. What did they eat? Well, it wasn't easy, but I flat out refused to serve feedlot rubbish, so with a lot of work, I was able to dig up some lovely wild sockeye. Out of the 96 pieces I bbq'ed , there wasn't a scrap left. I talked , sort of, to some of of our honoured guests- they don't care much for farmed fish(ish).

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/RugbyJapanada_zps0cacafef.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/RugbyJapanada_zps0cacafef.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Bassonator on May 19, 2013, 07:33:14 PM
2 touring old boys rugby clubs from Japan graced our club last week. I'm the social secretary (read cook) and I had a lot of folks to feed. What did they eat? Well, it wasn't easy, but I flat out refused to serve feedlot rubbish, so with a lot of work, I was able to dig up some lovely wild sockeye. Out of the 96 pieces I bbq'ed , there wasn't a scrap left. I talked , sort of, to some of of our honoured guests- they don't care much for farmed fish(ish).

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/RugbyJapanada_zps0cacafef.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/RugbyJapanada_zps0cacafef.jpg.html)

Gotta love it, more wild sockeye taken out of our rivers....lmao
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 19, 2013, 09:03:23 PM
Troll caught number 1's. Beautiful, bright and tasty.Troll is the most ethical fishery. What should I have fed them because I sure wasn't going to serve up farm rubbish? (Didn't you buy some "over the fence"?)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 19, 2013, 09:31:12 PM
Troll caught number 1's. Beautiful, bright and tasty.Troll is the most ethical fishery. What should I have fed them
Hamburgers and hotdogs :)  I agree with your thoughts on troll caught salmon but were these BC or Alaskan sockeye?  Fresh or frozen?  If these were indeed BC fish and fresh, most likely they would be early summers bound for upper Fraser River tributaries; all of these stocks are considered weak and are one of the reasons the institution of DFO's wild salmon policy is in limbo.

If they were Alaskan fish, well ... should have served hamburgers and hotdogs, IMO ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on May 19, 2013, 09:50:10 PM
maybe the were copper river fish outta alaska  !
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 20, 2013, 07:13:26 AM
Hamburgers and hotdogs :)  I agree with your thoughts on troll caught salmon but were these BC or Alaskan sockeye?  Fresh or frozen?  If these were indeed BC fish and fresh, most likely they would be early summers bound for upper Fraser River tributaries; all of these stocks are considered weak and are one of the reasons the institution of DFO's wild salmon policy is in limbo.

If they were Alaskan fish, well ... should have served hamburgers and hotdogs, IMO ;)

They were BC fish Dave, individually frozen 6 ounce portions, vacuum packed from a wholesaler. One of the guys on our team sourced them as at this time of year the only fresh thing available is, well, you know - frankenfish. We asked what they wanted us to serve them and sockeye was the first choice. I'm looking forward to our Japanese tour in 2014. Wonder what they'll feed us.. ;)
(I'm hoping for Kobe beef)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 20, 2013, 08:00:11 AM
They were BC fish Dave, individually frozen 6 ounce portions, vacuum packed from a wholesaler. One of the guys on our team sourced them as at this time of year the only fresh thing available is, well, you know - frankenfish.
I wont buy Alaskan wild caught sockeye either for that reason. :) :). Good choice NB.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Bassonator on May 20, 2013, 02:45:52 PM
Troll caught number 1's. Beautiful, bright and tasty.Troll is the most ethical fishery. What should I have fed them because I sure wasn't going to serve up farm rubbish? (Didn't you buy some "over the fence"?)

Yup
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on May 21, 2013, 05:13:01 AM
Yup

And you question my ethics? Hilarious. :o

BTW - How's the ticker doing?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 21, 2013, 10:19:08 AM
Back to the facts.
http://tumblerridgenews.com/?p=10908
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 21, 2013, 01:03:45 PM
Back to the facts.
http://tumblerridgenews.com/?p=10908
ah, but what does Marty know? :o
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 21, 2013, 05:23:38 PM
It just gets dumber and dumber for Morton.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=303

http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/2013/05/21/when-activists-play-dumb-are-they-really-playing/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on May 21, 2013, 08:50:53 PM
It just gets dumber and dumber for Morton.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=303

http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/2013/05/21/when-activists-play-dumb-are-they-really-playing/

Ok, I'll pick apart the antis when I see something misleading, so to be balanced I have to do the same here. What exactly is that graph trying to tell us? What is the y-axis representing? Not pieces of fish? Not pounds? Tonnes? And the wild coho harvest is comparable to sockeye harvest? That thing doesn't add up.

Not a fan of misleading propaganda and half-facts from either side.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 21, 2013, 09:29:32 PM
Ok, I'll pick apart the antis when I see something misleading, so to be balanced I have to do the same here. What exactly is that graph trying to tell us? What is the y-axis representing? Not pieces of fish? Not pounds? Tonnes? And the wild coho harvest is comparable to sockeye harvest? That thing doesn't add up.

Not a fan of misleading propaganda and half-facts from either side.
Looks like it came from here.
http://www.npafc.org/new/publications/Annual%20Report/2011/Annual%20Report2011%20(web)/files/mobile/index.html#15
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 27, 2013, 11:52:32 AM
Good pod cast with Morton and Marty. Why did Kiro not have an Atlantic grower from Washington on there as well if they are so worried about their wild salmon?
http://kiroradio.com/listen/9956634/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 27, 2013, 09:06:55 PM
Good pod cast with Morton and Marty. Why did Kiro not have an Atlantic grower from Washington on there as well if they are so worried about their wild salmon?
http://kiroradio.com/listen/9956634/
Great link Fb, and you're correct, a Washington State salmon farmer should have been included. It's 34 minutes folks but worth the time if you care about this stuff.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 28, 2013, 07:42:43 AM
Great link Fb, and you're correct, a Washington State salmon farmer should have been included. It's 34 minutes folks but worth the time if you care about this stuff.
Thank you Dave. It just gets more and more obvious that this is just American marketing propaganda since Washington farms Atlantic's in their own back yard yet are able to look out side their little box and point fingers at BC. I was so sucked in by Morton before.
http://kiroradio.com/listen/9956634/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 30, 2013, 12:26:46 PM
Washington waters clear of ISA.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/may3013a/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on May 30, 2013, 12:44:21 PM
Washington waters clear of ISA.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/may3013a/
Before you get too excited.

"Specific strains of the virus have caused a deadly disease in farm-raised Atlantic salmon. Outbreaks with significant losses have occurred in farmed Atlantic salmon in Maine, Eastern Canada, Chile and several European countries".

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 30, 2013, 01:36:38 PM
Washington waters clear of ISA.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/may3013a/
Is anyone but AlMo surprised ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 30, 2013, 01:37:47 PM
Before you get too excited.

"Specific strains of the virus have caused a deadly disease in farm-raised Atlantic salmon. Outbreaks with significant losses have occurred in farmed Atlantic salmon in Maine, Eastern Canada, Chile and several European countries".
And what has this to do with Pacific coast salmon ::)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on May 30, 2013, 01:59:26 PM
And what has this to do with Pacific coast salmon ::)
Many of us feel it is here already. :o
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on May 30, 2013, 02:11:51 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-30/norway-reports-two-outbreaks-of-infectious-salmon-anaemia-virus.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 30, 2013, 02:40:00 PM
Many of us feel it is here already. :o
No doubt it is but a non pathogenic strain,a strain endemic to this coast and possibly has been since the millions of Atlantic's were released here in attempts to start a sports fishery.  If ISA (the disease, not the virus) was here on the Pacific coast there most likely would not be any Brown trout in the Cowichan River or a living net penned Atlantic salmon, something we all know AlMo desperately wants.

Posting anything about ISA, the disease, in Norway salmon farms, or Irish or Scottish or Maine or Nova Scotian or Newfoundland farms is irrelevant to what's happening here.  What is relevant is the fact it is not in Washington State and has not been found in BC since farming Atlantic's began about 30 years ago.

Time for af to wade in I'm thinking ...
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 30, 2013, 04:52:19 PM
Before you get too excited.

"Specific strains of the virus have caused a deadly disease in farm-raised Atlantic salmon. Outbreaks with significant losses have occurred in farmed Atlantic salmon in Maine, Eastern Canada, Chile and several European countries".
And these countries are still farming Atlantic's. that in its self is exciting. :) lessons were learned it seems.   
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 30, 2013, 05:51:13 PM
And these countries are still farming Atlantic's. that in its self is exciting. :) lessons were learned it seems.   

Your really sounding like someone who gave money to Morton? :o
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 30, 2013, 06:05:16 PM
Your really sounding like someone who gave money to Morton? :o
Thank you TB. You finally believe me. :) (you're btw) I would still be donating to Mortons cause if she would ever get something right. Really no better than the Mayan calander end of the world predictions. At least those predictions were funny. :)
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=conspiracy%20theorist
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 31, 2013, 10:00:59 AM
Good news. :)
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=99666
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Easywater on May 31, 2013, 10:56:15 AM
Good news. :)
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=99666

You're not associated with fish farms yet you post pro-farm information the same day it is released?

Either you have no life or you're on an email distribution list for promoting fish farm articles.
My guess is that fish farm promotion is part of your job...
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 31, 2013, 11:10:10 AM
You're not associated with fish farms yet you post pro-farm information the same day it is released?

Either you have no life or you're on an email distribution list for promoting fish farm articles.
My guess is that fish farm promotion is part of your job...
He is providing the same service for pro salmon farmers as Chris and alwaysfisn does for the antis ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 31, 2013, 11:25:47 AM
You're not associated with fish farms yet you post pro-farm information the same day it is released?

Either you have no life or you're on an email distribution list for promoting fish farm articles.
My guess is that fish farm promotion is part of your job...


What I appreciate about Fisherbob's posts is that he is able to say in one sentence what absolon and *steve take several paragraphs to say..... 

Perhaps the feedlot industry is paying Fisherbob by the post, rather than by the word......   ???

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Every Day on May 31, 2013, 11:28:49 AM
I love that one line in the article : Alexandra Morton, who recently was removed from the list of Registered Professional Biologists with the College of Applied Biology of British Columbia.

PLEASE someone, tell me this is true. Then she can stop with the whole "claiming to be a biologist" thing when she has no idea about anything she is doing. She can go back to her real job, journalism. That would be especially great news also, for the fact that if it were true, her publications would all get filtered out and we wouldn't need to hear more doom and gloom from her which never materializes.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 31, 2013, 11:44:02 AM
I love that one line in the article : Alexandra Morton, who recently was removed from the list of Registered Professional Biologists with the College of Applied Biology of British Columbia.

PLEASE someone, tell me this is true. Then she can stop with the whole "claiming to be a biologist" thing when she has no idea about anything she is doing. She can go back to her real job, journalism. That would be especially great news also, for the fact that if it were true, her publications would all get filtered out and we wouldn't need to hear more doom and gloom from her which never materializes.
I asked that question regarding her status to the CABBC ... this is the reply:

Good Morning Dave,
Alexandra Morton has chosen not to renew her membership of the College.

Linda Stordeur, RPBio
Registrar, College of Applied Biology
Phone: 250-383-3306   Fax:250-383-2400


There have been other RP Bios that complained about Morton's professionalism to the registrar so there may be some truth to the removal.  Another question af can ask tomorrow, if he attends ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Every Day on May 31, 2013, 12:02:15 PM
I asked that question regarding her status to the CABBC ... this is the reply:

Good Morning Dave,
Alexandra Morton has chosen not to renew her membership of the College.

Linda Stordeur, RPBio
Registrar, College of Applied Biology
Phone: 250-383-3306   Fax:250-383-2400


There have been other RP Bios that complained about Morton's professionalism to the registrar so there may be some truth to the removal.  Another question af can ask tomorrow, if he attends ;D

This is great news!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Easywater on May 31, 2013, 12:14:16 PM
She still has a Doctorate in Science:

http://www.sfu.ca/content/dam/sfu/ceremonies/HDRs/honorary-degrees/Citation-Morton-web.pdf

So she choose not to pay dues to remain a member - her membership was not "removed".
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 31, 2013, 12:22:19 PM
This is great news!

You boys are desperate!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on May 31, 2013, 12:29:22 PM
It's interesting that in spite of Dave being retired, he still seems to think he is qualified to comment on fish science....

As you are implying about Alexandra, perhaps he isn't aware that he is no longer "qualified" to comment on these matters..
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on May 31, 2013, 12:36:55 PM
It's interesting that in spite of AF being a banker, he still seems to think he is qualified to comment on fish science....

Fixed for ya. Lol

I think I'll trust the fella who worked with salmon most or all of his career until retirement.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on May 31, 2013, 01:51:23 PM
He's not a banker.

He has a franchise that sells mutual funds.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Every Day on May 31, 2013, 04:11:28 PM
She still has a Doctorate in Science:

http://www.sfu.ca/content/dam/sfu/ceremonies/HDRs/honorary-degrees/Citation-Morton-web.pdf

So she choose not to pay dues to remain a member - her membership was not "removed".

O yea... I forgot, she has a doctorate which she didn't even earn...
Look at the link.. honorary degrees.

It's sad that so many people jump on the back of someone with no scientific background that got something handed to her because she did work with the university. 

Like I said, take a quick look at her "sampling techniques" out in the parking lot and out on the river. She has no regard for proper procedure and it's a joke to the scientific community. Tests and samples should be taken at a lab, not on a bloody cutting board down at the river, being used for multiple fish.

She should stay in journalism... everyone at this point knows she is damn good at fear-mongering and spreading around non-backed claims which always eventually become a laughing stock. She is definitely good at her first job (and what her real degree is in), I'll give her that.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 31, 2013, 05:56:23 PM
Well she sure did a number on fishfarmerbob. He should sue her to for help getting his life back together. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 31, 2013, 06:15:09 PM
Well she sure did a number on fishfarmerbob. He should sue her to for help getting his life back together. :)
You are funny TB. Lol. Do you read what you write before you post? I know the lingual from donating and listening to Morton and her sheeple over the years. :) to bad she never had the science to back her up.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 01, 2013, 08:20:19 AM
One for the farmers. Do not read this sheeple, you will not like it at all.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=340
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Bassonator on June 01, 2013, 09:11:50 AM
One for the farmers. Do not read this sheeple, you will not like it at all.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=340

Awesome, but she wont listen, as long as she keeps getting that salary for doing absolutely nothing from sheeple shes quite happy.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on June 01, 2013, 09:36:17 AM
One for the farmers. Do not read this sheeple, you will not like it at all.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=340
Love the comments :D  More things to ask her tonight, haha ..
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on June 01, 2013, 09:39:36 AM
One for the farmers. Do not read this sheeple, you will not like it at all.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=340
Written by the farmers and the PAP gang from here no less. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 01, 2013, 09:49:37 AM
One for the farmers. Do not read this sheeple, you will not like it at all.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=340

Meanwhile, Farmer Bawb frantically roots around for some self serving baloney from Fishfarmpravda.
Seriously Bob- try posting some info that isn't rocket polishing. All I need to do is look at the sources you quote and see bovine scatological matter put out by the disinformation arm of the Ministry Of Fish Farm propaganda.

Try some peer reviewed science.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 01, 2013, 09:56:21 AM
Farmer Bawb's local.....
(this a joke and only a joke. No fish were injured in the making of this joke. If this joke lasts longer than 4 hours, call your doctor.)



(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/500x528xturdPolishersUnionjpgpagespeedicETk4MMPD8s_zpsf2401eb2.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/500x528xturdPolishersUnionjpgpagespeedicETk4MMPD8s_zpsf2401eb2.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 01, 2013, 10:13:08 AM
Farmer Bawb's local.....
(this a joke and only a joke. No fish were injured in the making of this joke. If this joke lasts longer than 4 hours, call your doctor.)



(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/500x528xturdPolishersUnionjpgpagespeedicETk4MMPD8s_zpsf2401eb2.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/500x528xturdPolishersUnionjpgpagespeedicETk4MMPD8s_zpsf2401eb2.jpg.html)
That was an awesome joke NB :). That would fit Mortons line of work per"fact"ly. I will not donate to that union any more unless she can give me change for a penny. That is just a joke sheeple :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 01, 2013, 11:40:59 AM
The point being, you can trot out those turds from your propaganda specialists, polish them as much as you like, but in the end you still have a turd.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on June 01, 2013, 11:56:04 AM
But its a shiny turd????
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 01, 2013, 12:01:59 PM
Still a turd. ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 01, 2013, 12:12:43 PM
The point being, you can trot out those turds from your propaganda specialists, polish them as much as you like, but in the end you still have a turd.
I know what your point was NB. It fits Morton's science to a T. Please feel free to get back to me any time when one of hers turns into gold. :)
  http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=340
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 01, 2013, 12:14:32 PM
Get your polish out and get to work on that last "nugget" link....... ::)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 01, 2013, 12:47:05 PM
Get your polish out and get to work on that last "nugget" link....... ::)
Hehe NB, I stopped donating to Morton when I used up the last of my polish on her bull. Do you have any extra or do you need more? :). Btw I hope your surgery goes well and heals fast NB. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 01, 2013, 02:14:25 PM
For your next challenge, after your done with the buffer and cut polish on that last infomercial,  - find where I reference Ms. Morton. DIG DEEP!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 01, 2013, 02:21:22 PM
For your next challenge, after your done with the buffer and cut polish on that last infomercial,  - find where I reference Ms. Morton. DIG DEEP!
I do not need to dig NB because you didn't, I did. What is your point? I was very sincere when I said  "Btw I hope your surgery goes well and heals fast NB", wether you believe me or not is up to you. 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 03, 2013, 06:29:07 AM
And thank you for the well wishes. I didn't and don't doubt the sincerity. I don't agree with a point of view, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't sit down and have a coffee with you. I have friends, however disillusioned I may think they are and they of me, that sit on the opposite side of the fence that I do.

However

 My point was that common sense dictates what my beliefs are. I've seen first hand the devastation introduction of foreign species can have on the environment. I've also seen the same devastation that a poorly done native species can also wreak on the environment. I've also seen governments and the feedlot companies, well, let's just say be very economical with the truth when it comes to some of their "outcomes".(Think John Van Dongen warning of inspections, the government reducing or eliminating fines for transgressions, then I looked up political "donations" from these companies and the way they brought the government around to their way of thinking) There isn't enough inspection and oversight and when something goes awry, it just gets swept under the rug.
  I don't need a bunch of self serving propaganda to see the forest and I have enough common sense to reach what I consider to be a logical conclusion, without someone or some entity feeding me what accumulates under a feedlot.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 07, 2013, 08:38:44 AM
http://www.canadiancontent.net/commtr/salmon-confidential-fish-water_1100.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on June 07, 2013, 08:48:54 AM
http://www.canadiancontent.net/commtr/salmon-confidential-fish-water_1100.html
Thanks, it would be nice if Paul T. would give his full name or is it Fisherbob. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 07, 2013, 09:46:48 AM
Thanks, it would be nice if Paul T. would give his full name or is it Fisherbob. ;D ;D
Thanks for the compliment Chris, but no it would not be me who wrote this. 
http://www.canadiancontent.net/commtr/salmon-confidential-fish-water_1100.html

I did not write this one either. :)
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2013/130513.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on June 07, 2013, 03:12:27 PM
This fish farmer paul t just "cherry picks" the same and very old defense that the dirty fish crowd cling to like sea lice on the backside of dirty fish that hasn't had enough SLICE.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 07, 2013, 03:18:29 PM
This fish farmer paul t just "cherry picks" the same and very old defense that the dirty fish crowd cling to like sea lice on the backside of dirty fish that hasn't had enough SLICE.
Good for you T.B.  Now that was an original come back that I did not expect from you. Lol :). 
http://www.canadiancontent.net/commtr/salmon-confidential-fish-water_1100.html


http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2013/130513.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 07, 2013, 04:10:26 PM
Don't give a fib if you cant take it. :)
http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/06/03/the-final-15-and-the-films-second-biggest-fib/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on June 08, 2013, 07:55:17 AM
Is that your home page fibfarmerbob ?  ;D Seems like you post a link to every article and link from there.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 08, 2013, 08:45:06 AM
Is that your home page fibfarmerbob ?  ;D Seems like you post a link to every article and link from there.
You are not embarrassed by what I link TB. All sheeple can do is speculate that I am a farmer or these are my pages or I wrote them now LOL. I am sure I would still stand behind Morton if she was honest. She just spreads the virus called fear and passes around the collection plate. I got up after falling off the turnip truck and moved on.   
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 08, 2013, 12:56:56 PM
Anyone who doesn't agree with you and your nuggets of self serving propaganda is a "sheeple"? My way or the highway? ::)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 08, 2013, 03:28:29 PM
Anyone who doesn't agree with you and your nuggets of self serving propaganda is a "sheeple"? My way or the highway? ::)
I picked that strategy up when I was following Morton. Funny how that part stuck to me isnt it lol. Btw I was not the one that started messing with peoples names on here now was I. I never expect anyone to believe anything I post. Just something to think about. but it sure appears to tick off some sheeple. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 08, 2013, 10:00:42 PM
All I can see in your "nuggets" are pieces of corn Farmfisherbawb.However I don't lump all the ill informed in any particular peg hole.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 08, 2013, 11:01:31 PM
All I can see in your "nuggets" are pieces of corn Farmfisherbawb.However I don't lump all the ill informed in any particular peg hole.
Lol. Need I say more. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 09, 2013, 06:17:25 PM
Lol. Need I say more. :)


Fine by me if you don't. Maybe we should take a poll....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 11, 2013, 10:57:49 AM
More good news. :)
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/-1800661.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 11, 2013, 12:24:18 PM
This surveillance initiative is led by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) in partnership with many organizations, including the Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, the Province of British Columbia, First Nations groups, the aquaculture industry and the fishing and processing industry.



Pfffft -
This surveillance initiative is led by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) XL hamburgers for everyone!in partnership with many organizations, including the Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Biggest cheerleaders of feedlots the Province of British Columbia, Yeah, how much do they donate to the Libs? Think Van Dongen's tenure with the feedlots First Nations groups, Not very many, especially those with a vested interest in wild fish the aquaculture industry Noted for their honesty ( reaches over and turns off sarcasm button) and the fishing and processing industry ( Yeah, right - No dogs in this fight).

Back to the drawing board with you!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 11, 2013, 12:58:41 PM
I am surprised to see you say that after raving about the wild sockeye you had at your Rugby banquet. How is the taste in your mouth now NB? :)
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/-1800661.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on June 11, 2013, 02:11:32 PM
This surveillance initiative is led by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) in partnership with many organizations, including the Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, the Province of British Columbia, First Nations groups, the aquaculture industry and the fishing and processing industry.



Pfffft -
This surveillance initiative is led by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) XL hamburgers for everyone!in partnership with many organizations, including the Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Biggest cheerleaders of feedlots the Province of British Columbia, Yeah, how much do they donate to the Libs? Think Van Dongen's tenure with the feedlots First Nations groups, Not very many, especially those with a vested interest in wild fish the aquaculture industry Noted for their honesty ( reaches over and turns off sarcasm button) and the fishing and processing industry ( Yeah, right - No dogs in this fight).

Back to the drawing board with you!
Just who would you believe?  AlMo ?? ;D
Sure does sound like a conspiracy allright ...
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on June 11, 2013, 05:38:35 PM
More good news. :)
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/-1800661.htm
https://www.facebook.com/groups/111365508874859/permalink/621468611197877/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 11, 2013, 06:43:34 PM
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/wild-anadromous-salmonids/eng/1370960326837/1370960742286
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on June 11, 2013, 06:58:29 PM
Lets face it old guys like Dave and Fibsterbob can wolf down as much dirty fish as there bowel can manage, and not worry about shortening their lifespan. I'm more worried about younger people eating this crap.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on June 11, 2013, 07:52:18 PM
I'm more worried about younger people eating this crap.
And I'm more worried about what I see younger people packing out of places like 7-Elevens's or KFC, Burger King's or McD's.
Appreciate your concerns about my bowels though ... nice ;)
So, you figure Fisherbob to be an old guy like me?  Mayhaps, but I think you're guessing.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on June 11, 2013, 10:13:33 PM
Well then old before his time. Bob is like a gentle reminder to get the colon scoped out though. ;) He's probably a four peperoni a day guy, than someone eating farmed fish all week. :-\
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on June 11, 2013, 10:28:55 PM
I realized that everyone wants to focus on aquaculture, but one thing I noticed from this study was that it appeared to answer some questions following Cohen's criticism of DFO enhancement facilities and the possible release of endemic diseases.  The results from this study appear to be favourable for those facilities which is good news for everyone.  Hopefully, this type of surveillance continues.

Another thing to note was that one of the labs utilized for the study was the lab at the Pacific Biological Station (i.e. called one of the super labs by anti-fish farms critics and workplace of Dr. Kristi Miller....You remember....proclaimed "Scientist of the Year" by anti-fish farm critics).  However, I guess PBS is part of this conspiracy now because the results of the CFIA study do not sit well with the anti-fish farm crowd.  I guess we have to include the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife also in this conspiracy as their recent results appear to concur with those in Canada now.  Lets not forget the First Nation groups who contributed their catch to the CFIA surveillance study.  I guess they are part of the conspiracy also.....although they donated fish to Ms Morton's "surveillance" program also....but don't tell the antis that.  Not many FN involved?  Hmmm...here is an example of how many members with the UFFCA:

http://www.uffca.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=63


Another thing I noticed was the that CFIA did a better job at being forthcoming and transparent than Ms Morton.  Not only did they post an Executive Summary and press release, but if you noticed, a complete text of the report (which includes methods on how samples were collected, handled, transported and stored....not erroneous interpretations of results to grab headlines) is available upon request.  On the other hand, Ms Morton has been doing her "surveillance" since the end of the Cohen, tracking European viruses apparently and has produced no report on her activities, but is front and center in the media (and YouTube) making accusations against the BC aquaculture industry, DFO and the BC government.  Funny how the big, bad government people are more transparent than the "saviours" of wild fish who preach about being concerned about the muzzling of scientists, transparency, cover-ups, corruption and good science.

In Ms Morton's May 23rd blog post, she states:

It is very important that the debate about whether European viruses are spreading from Atlantic salmon feedlots into the Pacific and whether they are causing wild salmon populations to decline to be open and transparent.

Instead of focusing on names and personalities as a reason for not engaging with people with an opposite opinion perhaps Ms Morton should quit make excuses and start following her own advice in the above quote.  For instance, start with publishing her own methods and results in the same open format as the CFIA did today (and the WDFW did last week).  At the moment, it appears as though the one hiding things is Ms Morton.

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/wild-anadromous-salmonids/eng/1370960326837/1370960742286
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on June 12, 2013, 09:17:10 PM
Nibs liked your sheep dropping off a cliff post, called it your best, and it was a beauty but I think this one deserves serious consideration :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on June 12, 2013, 09:34:32 PM
Nibs liked your sheep dropping off a cliff post, called it your best, and it was a beauty but I think this one deserves serious consideration :)

Yup, Stevey is kinda like the current government......  instead of addressing the issues they're trying to change the focus.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on June 12, 2013, 10:35:15 PM
Yup, Stevey is kinda like the current government......  instead of addressing the issues they're trying to change the focus.

You are kinda like Morton....anyone who disagrees with you or doesn’t directly support the cause of wild salmon saviours is complicit in a grand conspiracy....and when science fails to support your emotions it is best to create distractions.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 13, 2013, 07:34:12 AM
Just who would you believe?  AlMo ?? ;D
Sure does sound like a conspiracy allright ...

Look at the list Dave. Do you believe every thing that gets uttered by these paragons of truth and honesty? How many times have they been caught spreading bovine scatology? Are you that gullible? I have my own mind- once I get lied to , I don't trust again. If you're unable to find anything related to said bovine emissions, try Google. And then tell me again why I should trust or believe anything they trot out.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 13, 2013, 07:47:46 AM
Look at the list Dave. Do you believe every thing that gets uttered by these paragons of truth and honesty? How many times have they been caught spreading bovine scatology? Are you that gullible? I have my own mind- once I get lied to , I don't trust again. If you're unable to find anything related to said bovine emissions, try Google. And then tell me again why I should trust or believe anything they trot out.
That is exactly how I feel about Morton these days NB. Now we have something in common. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on June 13, 2013, 06:34:41 PM
Yup, Stevey is kinda like the current government......  instead of addressing the issues they're trying to change the focus.

Changing the focus??? I think you are the one whose vision is blurred. The lab at PBS, the one AlMo wanted used for her samples, did not find anything. For a disease that was apparently so prevalent, strange that it didn't show up.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 19, 2013, 07:42:51 PM
Summer has begun and the propaganda for the Alaska farmed salmon has started.
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/summer-season-welcomes-wild-salmon-and-shameless-promotion-of-it/

Also in the getting facts right news.
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/what-sea-lice-and-what-farmed-salmon-feed-salmon-facts-are-sacred-blogs
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 21, 2013, 10:21:59 AM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/canada%E2%80%99s-isa-reference-laboratory-loses-oie-designation
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on June 21, 2013, 02:12:47 PM
The best line was Chicken Little from Echo Bay ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: EZ_Rolling on June 21, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
one lab to test all the salmon in the world....wow and you thought hospital wait times were bad.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 21, 2013, 04:44:30 PM
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/2013/06/21/bug-hunters-gone-wild-and-now-exposed-youll-understand-read-on/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on June 21, 2013, 06:41:06 PM
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/2013/06/21/bug-hunters-gone-wild-and-now-exposed-youll-understand-read-on/

Wonder how many people and organizations are ruing their donations to Ms. Morton and her rapidly spiralling downward cause? And as mentioned in the article, how much has this woman and her near shamanistic followers cost Canadian and US taxpayers?
Amazingly though, I bet some people reading this will still support her and the likes of Don Staniford ... best we can hope is those people are past breeding age ;)


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on June 21, 2013, 06:51:21 PM
Wonder how many people and organizations are ruing their donations to Ms. Morton and her rapidly spiralling downward cause? And as mentioned in the article, how much has this woman and her near shamanistic followers cost Canadian and US taxpayers?
Amazingly though, I bet some people reading this will still support her and the likes of Don Staniford ... best we can hope is those people are past breeding age ;)


Why such a hate on for Morton? How exactly has she hurt you? Do you have investments in the feedlot business and you are angry that they aren't doing all that well? Or is it that you have been so brain washed by your exposure to the feedlot industry that you can't see the big picture?

If it wasn't for the efforts of this very dedicated lady the government wouldn't be making any effort to save the wild salmon. If it wasn't for her efforts the feedlot industry would be making no efforts to clean up their act. If it wasn't for her efforts, like you, the general public would just be accepting the argument that it's too late for the wild salmon....

I'm surprised at your outlook considering what your vocation was.....   :o
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 22, 2013, 08:59:13 AM

If it wasn't for the efforts of this very dedicated lady the government wouldn't be making any effort to save the wild salmon. If it wasn't for her efforts the feedlot industry would be making no efforts to clean up their act. If it wasn't for her efforts, like you, the general public would just be accepting the argument that it's too late for the wild salmon....

I see you are looking out side the box now and see there have been changes for the better over the years like I Have AF. Good for you. :) I do not think the general public will ever give up on wild salmon like they have given up on American born Morton spending Canadian money. All I see now is Canadian funding cut from where it is needed to save wild salmon to cover Mortons media circus drama acts. Millions :(
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 22, 2013, 09:22:10 AM
I see you are looking out side the box now and see there have been changes for the better over the years like I Have AF. Good for you. :) I do not think the general public will ever give up on wild salmon like they have given up on American born Morton spending Canadian money. All I see now is Canadian funding cut from where it is needed to save wild salmon to cover Mortons media circus drama acts. Millions :(

Care to show us ignoramus exactly where she's cost us millions? Or do you keep that information in the same box as the gazillions you (allegedly) donated Fishfarmerbawb? How long have you been a fiction writer? ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 22, 2013, 01:30:45 PM
Care to show us ignoramus exactly where she's cost us millions? Or do you keep that information in the same box as the gazillions you (allegedly) donated Fishfarmerbawb? How long have you been a fiction writer? ;D
Sorry were you trying to say some thing NB?  You will have to speak up LOL. :)
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/2013/06/21/bug-hunters-gone-wild-and-now-exposed-youll-understand-read-on/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 22, 2013, 01:34:57 PM
Oops my bad. :)
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/2013/06/21/bug-hunters-gone-wild-and-now-exposed-youll-understand-read-on/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on June 22, 2013, 08:50:38 PM
Sounds like you found some new friends Fishfibfarmerbawb. Have an extra helping of that "crap science".
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 22, 2013, 09:17:22 PM
Sounds like you found some new friends Fishfibfarmerbawb. Have an extra helping of that "crap science".
I expected nothing more from you T.B. from being from your side of the fence not long ago. Its tough when there is no science from Morton and you can not step out of the small box that she gave us. :(
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on June 23, 2013, 06:32:39 PM
From my side of the fence? More like your side of the fish pen.  :o
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 23, 2013, 07:17:45 PM
From my side of the fence? More like your side of the fish pen.  :o
Keep on with your dreaming TB. Maybe some day in your dreams Morton may be right on something. Not sure what the colour of the sky is in your dream but I am just happy I stopped donating to your dream. What a waste of money that went no where to help wild salmon in BC.  :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 24, 2013, 06:48:58 AM
So tell me fishfarmerbawb - How much money or effort have the feedlots put in for wild salmon conservation or are the discretionary budgets topped out with money donated to the ruling parties to curry favour?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 24, 2013, 09:10:41 AM
So tell me fishfarmerbawb - How much money or effort have the feedlots put in for wild salmon conservation or are the discretionary budgets topped out with money donated to the ruling parties to curry favour?
Just because I no longer follow Morton's myths, you assume I am a fish farmer. I guess that is what Morton's sheeple do best when dog science fails. Do your own leg work. There is something called google. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 24, 2013, 09:39:57 AM
Courageous non answer ::). I expected as much from a fish farmer or someone who has no legs to stand on and no data to back up a spurious argument based on nothing but self serving propaganda put forth by the feedlots. Sorry about asking what is obviously a very embarrassing question to which your very flaccid reply proves you don't have any courage to your "convictions". RUN AND HIDE! THE BAD MAN IS ASKING HARD QUESTIONS!
Or, it was Sweet Fannie Adams - all our extra dough goes to the ruling party to curry favour.

C'mon Bawb - you can do better.

And again little buddy - Check my posts for the TIMES I'VE REFERRED  TO MS. MORTON- DOESN'T EXIST.

Here ya go - you need these

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/collegehumora69d165dec9bf4fa8a49930b6f0f33d5_zpscff17ff6.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/collegehumora69d165dec9bf4fa8a49930b6f0f33d5_zpscff17ff6.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 24, 2013, 10:01:35 AM
That was sure long winded NB. All you have to do is step out of you small negative box to see some positive. Do you need me to hold your hand on this one? Simply google fish farmers help salmon enhancement. :). There seems to be more positive to farming than Morton wanted me to know.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 24, 2013, 02:54:52 PM
Old fish tubs that weren't any use to them any more, less money than they gave to the government cheerleaders, and that's about it. :o
STANDING O!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 24, 2013, 03:25:44 PM
Even your cherry picking of a few tubs is far more than what American born Morton has done. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 24, 2013, 03:49:26 PM
When are you going to get off the Morton campaign? I don't quote her and the above info I posted came from the first 2 pages of Google search. All self congratulatory self back patting.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 24, 2013, 04:24:49 PM
When are you going to get off the Morton campaign? I don't quote her and the above info I posted came from the first 2 pages of Google search. All self congratulatory self back patting.
Dont hurt your arm patting yourself on the back for that one. :). Still using the old comebacks from when I trusted Morton lol. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 25, 2013, 09:33:52 AM
http://www.callandermcdowell.co.uk/relaks612.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 25, 2013, 10:59:46 AM
More Pravda please!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 25, 2013, 11:49:09 AM
I thought it was more interesting than the guano Morton puts out. :) 

http://www.callandermcdowell.co.uk/relaks612.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: gilbey on June 25, 2013, 10:02:17 PM
I thought it was more interesting than the guano Morton puts out. :) 

http://www.callandermcdowell.co.uk/relaks612.htm
"Whats guano?"
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on June 25, 2013, 11:36:22 PM
The secret answer (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=guano)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on June 26, 2013, 07:04:25 AM
The secret answer (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=guano)

Did you forget to log into the forum under your Fisherbob handle?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on June 26, 2013, 08:22:06 AM
I only use that one when you are signed in as Novabonker.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on June 26, 2013, 08:31:27 AM
Did you forget to log into the forum under your Fisherbob handle?
;D ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 26, 2013, 09:08:05 AM
I only use that one when you are signed in as Novabonker.

????????????
Go to the HST thread to see our differing views, and then read this piece- peer reviewed, not propaganda from the feedlots.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/322/5909/1790.3.full

And much more feedlot "Mythbusters" to come. Peer reviewed, not self serving bovine scatology ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on June 26, 2013, 09:33:00 AM
????????????
Go to the HST thread to see our differing views.....

I'm confident that you'll eventually come around to my views on HST....   

I've noticed that when Absolon disappears from the forum, Fisherbob shows up, and then vice versa.  Is it too much to hope that both of them disappear at the same time?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 26, 2013, 10:38:05 AM
Sorry TB, or is it NB today? It is all junk science. You should be happy with this news. :)

http://www.financialpost.com/m/wp/fp-comment/blog.html?b=opinion.financialpost.com/2010/06/17/junk-science-week-this-science-is-fishy

This one will be harder for you to understand but its a good read. :)

http://m.rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/367/1596/1770.full
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on June 26, 2013, 11:52:47 PM
????????????
Go to the HST thread to see our differing views, and then read this piece- peer reviewed, not propaganda from the feedlots.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/322/5909/1790.3.full

And much more feedlot "Mythbusters" to come. Peer reviewed, not self serving bovine scatology ;)

Hey, I am glad you are posting some literature.  Here is some for you also - from the same journal:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/322/5909/1790b.full

Mathematical models are not taboo per se, but they come with risks because they are dependent on what information you put into them and they are based on certain underlying assumptions.  You still need to look at what is happening outside of the mathematical world - on the spawning grounds.  How are pink salmon doing now?

Here is some more:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10641260801937131#.UcvXwmprbIU
http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gdmarty/2010PNAS-Marty-etalSeaLicePaper.pdf

You might want to check out pink salmon escapements on the odd and even year in that area for the last 30 or 40 years and see how they have done over the long term - before and after salmon farming.

Here is one I thought you would like (Ms Morton never references this in her posts.  Why is that?)
http://salmonfarmscience.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/sealice_2011_ices_morton.pdf

Here is another one that I have posted numerous times, but antis do not like it (Read Volume 2: Chapters 4 and 5):
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/FinalReport/

What did Cohen conclude about sea lice in relation to the decline of Fraser Sockeye?  If you read those Chapters you will find what he said.

For a larger, big picture view try reading some literature from the North Pacific Anadromous Fisheries Commission (Warning: This requires the reader to have an open mind.  Try your best, NB):
http://www.npafc.org/new/pub_technical8.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on June 26, 2013, 11:55:01 PM
The secret answer (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=guano)

  ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on June 27, 2013, 07:31:24 AM
some good articles gentlemen.....  have there been any studies/papers regarding potential virus mutation? specifically the ones that are present in atlantic stocks.

I've read on here that ISA is present but has no effect on the pacific stocks... so basically has anyone looked into the possibility of it eventually effecting pacific salmon.

I come across this type of info on google. but nothing like a peer reviewed paper.

 "The virus was found in two of 48 juvenile sockeye salmon collected as part of a long-term study of sockeye salmon led by Simon Fraser University professor Rick Routledge. "It is certainly possible that this disease may be benign for Pacific salmon, but I still don't rest easy because it was initially benign for Atlantic salmon and it mutated," he said Tuesday.





Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 27, 2013, 09:29:00 AM
some good articles gentlemen.....  have there been any studies/papers regarding potential virus mutation? specifically the ones that are present in atlantic stocks.

I've read on here that ISA is present but has no effect on the pacific stocks... so basically has anyone looked into the possibility of it eventually effecting pacific salmon.

I come across this type of info on google. but nothing like a peer reviewed paper.

 "The virus was found in two of 48 juvenile sockeye salmon collected as part of a long-term study of sockeye salmon led by Simon Fraser University professor Rick Routledge. "It is certainly possible that this disease may be benign for Pacific salmon, but I still don't rest easy because it was initially benign for Atlantic salmon and it mutated," he said Tuesday.
This may help you with the links in it.
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Easywater on June 27, 2013, 01:44:27 PM
This may help you with the links in it.
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/

This is such BS.

It's like saying "We searched the suspect's house and didn't find stolen money so therefore he cannot be the thief".

Just because they haven't found ISA so far in testing, it doesn't mean that the original testing was "false positive".
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on June 27, 2013, 02:09:57 PM
And just because you've never actually seen one doing it doesn't mean that pigs can't fly....


(http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2011-01-28-pigshavewings3.jpg)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on June 27, 2013, 03:06:16 PM
And just because you've never actually seen one doing it doesn't mean that pigs can't fly....


(http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2011-01-28-pigshavewings3.jpg)

I think I'm starting to understand you a bit more. Your use of mythical characters to illustrate a point you are trying to make probably indicates the books you are using to do your research.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on June 27, 2013, 04:00:45 PM
(http://www.fishandfly.com/files.php?file=photos/brown_hooked_392301729.jpg)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 27, 2013, 04:55:58 PM
http://fairquestions.typepad.com/rethink_campaigns/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 28, 2013, 07:33:15 AM
http://www.aquatichealth.net/node/80790
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 03, 2013, 08:29:08 PM
http://www.bcsalmonfacts.ca/#!/fact/naturally
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on July 04, 2013, 10:32:49 AM
Here's a thought farmfisherbawb - instead of posting links to lead to self serving tripe, why not think on your own? Pravda links aren't working as anyone with 2 active brain cells can see them as PR.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 05, 2013, 04:33:56 PM
Getting facts straight.
http://inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/statement-2013-07-05/eng/1373038790217/1373041710849
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on July 05, 2013, 08:41:55 PM
Sounds like their trying to get up to speed with the testing for ISA which they haven't been doing so far. :-\

hope your enjoying some farmed fresh salmon this weekend bawb. ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 06, 2013, 06:53:19 PM
Get back to me when Morton gets it right TB, AF,NB or who ever you logged in as. It's bin nice chattin with ya.  :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on July 07, 2013, 09:03:44 AM
Get back to me when Morton gets it right TB, AF,NB or who ever you logged in as. It's bin nice chattin with ya.  :)


going back to the farm  ::)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 23, 2013, 09:53:04 AM

going back to the farm  ::)
What has Morton been right on TB? The tooth fairy makes more sense lol. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on July 23, 2013, 03:25:35 PM
What has Morton been right on TB? The tooth fairy makes more sense lol. :)

Sounds strange dat. Have you been feeding under the net pen again?  ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 23, 2013, 03:39:02 PM
Sounds strange dat. Have you been feeding under the net pen again?  ;D
Some how I knew you would not be able to answer a very simple question. Keep on steaming the dung beetle course my friend. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on July 23, 2013, 09:59:07 PM
no links that turn the poop below the net pens into chocolate sundaes farmfisherbawb?

This one? http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=33170.0Or are the FACTS just too overwhelming and unreputable so you and the farm hands lack the moral conviction or truth to respond?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 24, 2013, 09:21:32 AM
FYI NB. :)
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/video-eng.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on July 24, 2013, 03:13:00 PM
Sounds like more poop in your boot fishfarmerboop. :) Empty words from the DFO who missmanage the fishery for us.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on July 24, 2013, 10:08:32 PM
Lots of poop coming from your mouth, TB.  Again, why don't some of you gentlemen educate yourselves.

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/reporting-rapports/benth-eng.html

All salmon farms in BC must follow a regulated program of benthic monitoring and reporting.  This involves sampling and video monitoring - not the edited YouTube videos many of you fear mongers watch.  Other industrial activities in and around water likely have much more impact.  Where are the YouTube videos on those?  How regulated are those in comparison?  What measure do those industries take to reduce impact.  Impact is never zero and no one never claimed it was.

Come to think of it wasn't this the thread where Novabonker was going to unleash his "Mythbusters" on me after finding this:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/322/5909/1790.3.full

I don't remember getting a response to my post, Novabonker.  Did you hit a glich in your "Mythbuster" quest?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on July 25, 2013, 07:55:15 AM
Sorry shoeswap, I'm just an ignernt redneck and unable to make much sense of that bafflegab- but after watching the "mis-steps" that constantly plague DFO , I have no trust in them. No lab would want to repudiate their "findings" as it leads to the path of de - certification. 
Would you eat a clam or a crab that came from that pile of $*it? OH!  Wait a minute! Nothing can live under those poop piles.


BTW - Nice try on pointing to another direction with "Other industries are WORSE!" Must be running out of talking points...... ::)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on July 25, 2013, 06:19:35 PM
Hate to throw you under the netpen again Shoe, but taxpayers are shoveling out something like 59 million to get these guys to make adequate reports on what their polluting. Check yer boots buddy.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on July 25, 2013, 10:47:40 PM
Sorry shoeswap, I'm just an ignernt redneck and unable to make much sense of that bafflegab- but after watching the "mis-steps" that constantly plague DFO , I have no trust in them. No lab would want to repudiate their "findings" as it leads to the path of de - certification. 
Would you eat a clam or a crab that came from that pile of $*it? OH!  Wait a minute! Nothing can live under those poop piles.


BTW - Nice try on pointing to another direction with "Other industries are WORSE!" Must be running out of talking points...... ::)

I guess I was hoping too much for an intelligent response from you that didn't contain the usual rhetoric and deflection that is the hallmark of fear mongers like yourself.  Oh well...it wasn't a big surprise.  When you get around to threatening to unleash those "Mythbusters" (you remember the ones in this thread you going to use, but backed down after I called your bluff) on me let me know. 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on July 25, 2013, 11:13:29 PM
Hate to throw you under the netpen again Shoe, but taxpayers are shoveling out something like 59 million to get these guys to make adequate reports on what their polluting. Check yer boots buddy.

If that is how you throw then you need to try a bit harder.  Monitoring is only part of where those funds are directed towards, TB.  Since 2010, the BC fish farming industry has been regulated under the Federal Fisheries Act.  Do you remember the series of events that led to the industry here to be regulated by the feds and the Fisheries Act?  Any idea, TB?  Well, those regulations are geared to wild fisheries - not aquaculture, so it makes more sense to have regulations that actually address aquaculture.  I do concede that I wish there was more funds for other things DFO does, but the actions of a certain activist caused a chain reaction that ended up with regulatory change being a necessity now.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on July 26, 2013, 12:52:39 AM
" but the actions of a certain activist caused a chain reaction that ended up with regulatory change being a necessity now."


that statement is so under the net pen buddy  ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on July 26, 2013, 06:28:10 AM
Sorry to disappoint you Steveroni.......... but not too much. You see young feller, I watched DFO , through willful ignorance or outright apathy decimate fisheries on the east coast, so my faith in anything they dream up is well, minimal. The fallout devastated families( mine being one of them), changed communities, and altered the fabric of a society. Some well marbled derriere, sitting in Ottawa that never spent a day on the sea fishing that pens a "report" filled with $50 words means squat to me. I wouldn't and don't trust DFO any further than I can pull BC Place. You don't need a boat load of diplomas to see that introduction of a foreign species, pooping, antibiotics, and slice along with God knows what else on a concentrated route is going to have a bad ending. Common sense, Steve.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 26, 2013, 04:21:57 PM
Fish farming seems to me to be the result of over fishing of a non sustainable wild fishery by greedy people. The Gov stepped in to late. :(   
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 26, 2013, 06:10:07 PM
Get the facts right Don.
http://protestingtheprotesters.wordpress.com/2013/07/26/fair-comment/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 26, 2013, 06:11:58 PM
????
http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2013/07/26/association-voices-concerns-about-salmon-confidential-film-documentary/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on July 26, 2013, 07:04:16 PM
????
http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2013/07/26/association-voices-concerns-about-salmon-confidential-film-documentary/


 ??? ? ....Exactly bob what concerns could they possibly have. Hopefully it's not that spokesperson for the salmon frankenfarming group venting her spleen.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on July 26, 2013, 07:40:10 PM

 ??? ? ....Exactly bob what concerns could they possibly have. Hopefully it's not that spokesperson for the salmon frankenfarming group venting her spleen.

wow... the lady is painful to listen to ! I'm 3 minutes in and lost count of the X's she said ummh !!!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 26, 2013, 09:19:40 PM
wow... the lady is painful to listen to ! I'm 3 minutes in and lost count of the X's she said ummh !!!
Just about as bad as hearing Morton, Don, and the anti's spewing their dung that gets polished so well. :). They like to make the news, not report it. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on July 26, 2013, 09:56:25 PM
Sorry to disappoint you Steveroni.......... but not too much. You see young feller, I watched DFO , through willful ignorance or outright apathy decimate fisheries on the east coast, so my faith in anything they dream up is well, minimal. The fallout devastated families( mine being one of them), changed communities, and altered the fabric of a society. Some well marbled derriere, sitting in Ottawa that never spent a day on the sea fishing that pens a "report" filled with $50 words means squat to me. I wouldn't and don't trust DFO any further than I can pull BC Place. You don't need a boat load of diplomas to see that introduction of a foreign species, pooping, antibiotics, and slice along with God knows what else on a concentrated route is going to have a bad ending. Common sense, Steve.

Sorry, you can't use governments as the scape goat because when it comes down to it nobody wants to be told they can't fish and everyone (i.e. general public, stakeholders) likes to point fingers at everyone else except their own contribution to the situation.  Management plays a role, I won't deny that, but rarely is there a single cause in things like this.  Using common sense to defend opinions that are not based on facts does not make much sense, NB.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on July 26, 2013, 10:01:25 PM
" but the actions of a certain activist caused a chain reaction that ended up with regulatory change being a necessity now."


that statement is so under the net pen buddy  ;D

Sorry if the truth hurts so bad.  Have a sip of Kool-Aid.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on July 26, 2013, 10:20:33 PM
Sorry, you can't use governments as the scape goat because when it comes down to it nobody wants to be told they can't fish and everyone (i.e. general public, stakeholders) likes to point fingers at everyone else except their own contribution to the situation.  Management plays a role, I won't deny that, but rarely is there a single cause in things like this.  Using common sense to defend opinions that are not based on facts does not make much sense, NB.


Again more stuff from under the netpen. You phsycic or something, or just making this stuff up. people are told about the fishing regs which include closures..... duh. The other stakeholders just use cash to bribe politicians to get their way. Management......well they like their paycheck you know just common sense.

Shoe thrown under the netpen again. ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on July 26, 2013, 11:42:12 PM

Again more stuff from under the netpen. You phsycic or something, or just making this stuff up. people are told about the fishing regs which include closures..... duh. The other stakeholders just use cash to bribe politicians to get their way. Management......well they like their paycheck you know just common sense.

Shoe thrown under the netpen again. ;D

Seems like the only one using psychic ability right now is you.  Who in particular is taking bribes?  Who is just concerned with just the paycheck and not on management?  Lots of rhetoric and no substance.  I think you are on your way to having a role in a sequel to Salmon Confidential.  Jody Erickson needs a sampling buddy.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on July 27, 2013, 09:26:02 AM
Sorry, you can't use governments as the scape goat because when it comes down to it nobody wants to be told they can't fish and everyone (i.e. general public, stakeholders) likes to point fingers at everyone else except their own contribution to the situation.  Management plays a role, I won't deny that, but rarely is there a single cause in things like this.  Using common sense to defend opinions that are not based on facts does not make much sense, NB.


Where are facts missing Steve? I simply related what idiotic policies from DFO had and how it devastated a fishery and the fallout from mismanagement had on families, mine being one of them - my family made most of it's income from fishing since arriving on the east coast over a hundred years before Canada became Canada.Nobody from my family is involved in fisheries now as it became apparent that the game was over. I saw the fallout first hand and I see the same lunacy behind the feedlots here.

Management plays a role, I won't deny that, - Exactly, but you don't want management to take any heat when the ,um, net pen poop hits the fan? Hilarious!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on July 27, 2013, 09:29:33 AM
I shouldn't answer for troutbreath, but the "bribes" as I see them are the money delivered to political parties in the form of donations. Ever look at who gave money to the Liberal party? Then see if they benefited from the largesse. If you're that blind to reality......
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 27, 2013, 10:56:58 AM
http://www.seaaroundus.org/TVRadio/2009/CBC_FishFecesReduceOceanCO2Levels.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on July 27, 2013, 02:01:36 PM

Where are facts missing Steve? I simply related what idiotic policies from DFO had and how it devastated a fishery and the fallout from mismanagement had on families, mine being one of them - my family made most of it's income from fishing since arriving on the east coast over a hundred years before Canada became Canada.Nobody from my family is involved in fisheries now as it became apparent that the game was over. I saw the fallout first hand and I see the same lunacy behind the feedlots here.

Management plays a role, I won't deny that, - Exactly, but you don't want management to take any heat when the ,um, net pen poop hits the fan? Hilarious!

Correction, NB, I never stated that I didn't want management to take any heat.  It comes with the territory.  I acknowledged those policies, but I also acknowledge the culture and society which we live in that always wants more (never less), but does little to take responsibility for actions they take.  I also acknowledge that there are individuals who do not take the time to know the complete picture.

Management involves advisory processes and consultation involving many different players.  It is not the easiest task to get agreement.  Stakeholders not only bicker with DFO but they bicker with each other - accusing the other of robbing the resource.  Don't take my word for it, go ask those involved in the advisory processes (on both sides of the table); talk to those involved with consulations with sporties and First Nations; and read some of the forum topics on the internet where sporties, commies, and First Nations all go at each other accusing each other of not doing their fair share to protect the resource.  Try being that person in between sometime. 

With regards to Fraser Sockeye, the management of the fishery is a complex set of tasks requiring the analysis of a lot of information coming in from different sources (test fisheries, creel, acoustic surveys and spawning ground surveys) that can constantly change from preseason to postseason. When you add in environmental conditions it can make it even more complex.  Decisions need to be made quickly and most times with conflicting information.  Each time a decision is made someone is undoubtedly going to complain.  Trust me, there are times where I shake my head at some resource management decisions; however, I understand somewhat what resource management deals with and how being on the hot seat requires not just technical skills but also diplomacy.  Definitely not a job I would desire.  They may not always be the right decisions, but I would like to see how some of you would behave under similar circumstances.  Situations where you are looked upon by many different groups to make not only the right decisions, but also timely decisions as well as being perceived as being fair. 

http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/FinalReport/CohenCommissionFinalReport_Vol01_05.pdf#zoom=100
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on July 27, 2013, 02:03:18 PM
I shouldn't answer for troutbreath, but the "bribes" as I see them are the money delivered to political parties in the form of donations. Ever look at who gave money to the Liberal party? Then see if they benefited from the largesse. If you're that blind to reality......

You're right, you shouldn't have answered for him.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on July 27, 2013, 03:19:22 PM
Each time a decision is made someone is undoubtedly going to complain.  Trust me, there are times where I shake my head at some resource management decisions; however, I understand somewhat what resource management deals with and how being on the hot seat requires not just technical skills but also diplomacy.  Definitely not a job I would desire.  They may not always be the right decisions, but I would like to see how some of you would behave under similar circumstances.  Situations where you are looked upon by many different groups to make not only the right decisions, but also timely decisions as well as being perceived as being fair. 

http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/FinalReport/CohenCommissionFinalReport_Vol01_05.pdf#zoom=100
Well, you might not want it but I believe you would make an excellent resource manager for your area. For sure, the future of what's left of this resource needs proper management by competent people, and you fit the JD :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on July 27, 2013, 04:50:11 PM
One of the problems as I see it is a lot of decisions are being made in the political theatre, I saw that first hand with the Fraser River Gravel file over the years. Some lost their jobs because they were not saying what those in power at the time wanted to hear. I am sure others can add further examples to these.

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=32646.0

 http://www.watershed-watch.org/2013/04/globe-and-mail-ottawa-withholding-reports-on-bc-wild-salmon/

http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/fish-farms-allied-with-government-activists-say-1.146182

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/05/03/when-science-goes-silent/


Also, how many recommendations from the Cohen inquiry not to mention numerous other Inquiries over the last number of years have actually been acted on?

Gets pretty depressing that we are all faced with such obstacles. :(

 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on July 27, 2013, 05:27:50 PM
Also, how many recommendations from the Cohen inquiry not to mention numerous other Inquiries over the last number of years have actually been acted on?
Gets pretty depressing that we are all faced with such obstacles. :(

Well Chris, at least two recommendations from the $26 M Cohen farce (think what that money could have done for habitat restoration) have been acted on ... one, there is to be no expansion of salmon farms in the Discovery Island area, said BC’s newly elected Premier, and two, Federal and private funding has been allocated to research into the relationship between wild and farmed salmon disease issues, this to be addressed by Dr's. Riddell, of the Pacific Salmon Foundation, and Miller, Science Branch, DFO.
But in the mean time all user groups are fighting over, and killing what's left because humans in general are greedy bastards..
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on July 27, 2013, 06:45:03 PM
Well Chris, at least two recommendations from the $26 M Cohen farce (think what that money could have done for habitat restoration) have been acted on ... one, there is to be no expansion of salmon farms in the Discovery Island area, said BC’s newly elected Premier, and two, Federal and private funding has been allocated to research into the relationship between wild and farmed salmon disease issues, this to be addressed by Dr's. Riddell, of the Pacific Salmon Foundation, and Miller, Science Branch, DFO.
But in the mean time all user groups are fighting over, and killing what's left because humans in general are greedy bastards..
Well I hope something good comes of this, another study to add to many in the past. As well it does not take forever to be released to us and there is no government interference that has become all too common place these days.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on July 27, 2013, 07:07:13 PM
$26 M Cohen farce

I don't think that was a farce !

I think dfo and Harper are a farce !!!

Time to dismantle DFO and there Ottawa jobs ! here here
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on July 27, 2013, 10:47:34 PM
Chris, I don't deny that our King back east is a bit of dip and that science is seen more of an inconvenience most times.  One example is the not criminally responsible legislation changes proposed by the Harper Government which are not based on science from experts, but instead based on fear and ignorance towards mental illness (I have a family member that suffers from a mental illness).  However, the media reports you posted only show part of the big picture - some are actually misleading.  Not for what they say but what they do not say.  That's why I take media reports with a grain of salt most times.

For instance, in the Times Colonist article you posted the reporter failed to mention the fact that veterinarians in BC are bound to confidentially (provincial legislation) with regards to data they collect - not just fish veterinaries but also with other animal veterinarians.  Even medical doctors are bound to confidentially.  This isn't some new thing that came down the pipe to stifle opponents to net-pen aquaculture.  Mr. Coste may find it alarming but it is the law and people like Dr. Marty did the right thing under the circumstance.  That's why people need to dig a little deeper than a news article because if people rely solely on that for information than they are short changing themselves.  That's why some of us are not instantly alarmed by the news articles posted regarding aquaculture, Chris.  You should be aware that aquaculture information is much more accessible now under the feds.  Did the reporter mention that?  I admit some of it is slow going, but critics cannot say that no one is listening.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on July 27, 2013, 11:01:52 PM
I don't think that was a farce !

I think dfo and Harper are a farce !!!

Time to dismantle DFO and there Ottawa jobs ! here here

Well, that's great you didn't think Cohen was a farce.  You might also be pleased to know that along with criticism labelled against the department and recommendation made, Justice Cohen also had praise for the job people in the department are doing under challenging circumstances.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 30, 2013, 08:03:45 AM
Comments based on fact or fiction?
"Thankfully the courts in Canada are willing to stand up to bullies and demand that they back up their claims with facts. I don’t believe that this ruling will slow Staniford down in his pursuits but it does send a clear message to activists: do your homework before you open your mouths."

http://protestingtheprotesters.wordpress.com/2013/07/26/fair-comment/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on July 30, 2013, 08:54:50 AM
 About June Sharkey
I am a firm supporter of resource based industries on and around Vancouver Island. I have friends who work in these industries and I am tired of seeing the bullying done by these so called "peaceful protesters." My main focus will be on the fish farm protesters because they are very active in my community.



Sounds like your kind of shrill fisfarmenbob. I wouldn't expect her to be more than one sided though. ::)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 07, 2013, 11:05:26 AM
Anti's making up stories again haha.
 http://www.seafoodsource.com/newsarticledetail.aspx?id=21730&utm_source=Informz&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Insert+Campaign+Name+here
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 09, 2013, 04:10:05 PM
Looks like Morton has debunked herself.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=438
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 12, 2013, 06:18:44 AM
http://www.bcsalmonfacts.ca/#!/fact/sea-lice
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 12, 2013, 07:02:31 AM
More self serving BS. Maybe Farmfisherbawb, instead of insulting the intelligence of adults who see through your "links" you and the posse could start on the children, like MacDonalds, Coke or the other corporations that find brain washing an acceptable practice.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 12, 2013, 12:22:27 PM
These days, I prefer to read the news from both sides of the fence and form my own opinion thank you very much NB. :) 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 12, 2013, 02:36:17 PM
Morton at it again.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=445
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on August 12, 2013, 03:50:22 PM
These days, I prefer to read the news from both sides of the fence and form my own opinion thank you very much NB. :)

Farmfresh(haha)salmon and bcsalmonfacts are on one side of the fence FYI

I hope you learned a lesson about giving money away to people. Seems like you haven't quoted that in awhile so I though you might be slipping back into old habits. Just looking out for you ...TB
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 12, 2013, 06:12:52 PM
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/BadKoolAid_zps73600e59.png) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/BadKoolAid_zps73600e59.png.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 12, 2013, 07:33:10 PM
Thank you TB but it will be a very long time before I forget about donating to Morton's cause. Please feel free to tell me what she has gotten right btw. I have not seen an answer from the anti's yet. Just school yard back talk lol. :)   
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on August 13, 2013, 07:30:44 AM
http://www.courierislander.com/opinion/dfo-s-management-plan-a-conflict-of-interest-1.130816 (http://www.courierislander.com/opinion/dfo-s-management-plan-a-conflict-of-interest-1.130816)

"I recently attended the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) meeting to discuss new aquaculture regulations. A five-year plan was presented that speaks of expansion, markets and profits. The DFO should be a regulatory and enforcement body. Concern with industry markets, promotion and economic growth is a conflict of interest.

The plan discusses eco-certificates to meet market demand, but open net fish farms use Slice, transfer sea lice to smolts, have disease and impact depleted wild stocks such as herring through what is termed by-catch. How are they "eco" anything?

A representative of Grieg Seafoods explained to us that they could not publicly share their disease information as it could negatively affect their shareholders; however disease in the farms can kill our Pacific stocks.

In an interview, Dr. Neil Frazer, from the University of Hawaii, spoke of an IHN epidemic in BC's Broughton Archipelago in 2001-2003, indicating that stocking levels of Atlantics in the farms exceeded the threshold for viral epidemics.

"BC's sockeye, chinook and steelhead salmon are susceptible to IHN, and stocking levels have increased since the 2001-2003 epidemic. Even without expansion, stocking levels have already made BC a 'sitting duck' for viral epidemics," he said.

In an article in the Courier-Islander of Nov. 8, 2009 the B.C. Salmon Farmers Association said "preliminary research shows that the common species of louse on sockeye (Caligus) is not the species normally found on farmed salmon which is Lepeophitherius". The Fish Health Report 2007, found on the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands website (BCMAL), state Caligus is one of two species of lice most common on farmed salmon. According to data graphs for the Broughton and Discovery Islands in Fish Health 2007 fish farms show rising levels of Caligus sea lice in June and July of 2007, when the sockeye smolts migrated past the farms.

From the Vancouver Sun, "Sockeye runs near the Fraser River that did not pass salmon farms including, Columbia River to the south and Somass River to the west, survived better than forecast...only the sockeye stocks that are known to migrate past 60 salmon farm sites failed at over 90 per cent."

Why the pink return did so well? For their 2008 spring out-migration, the BCMAL required action of fish farms, "In the spring of the year...if three motile lice are detected must include treatment or harvest." Does the fate of our wild fish depend whether fish farms use drugs or not?

Days after the sockeye collapse, the DFO were in Norway inviting more open net farms to our coast.

Before any inquiry they stated that the collapse was not the fault of the fish farms, even though they were in receipt of a letter of 2007 where 18 scientists warned to move the farms to closed containment and/or off the migration routes.

Just last month there was another call by scientists to move open net fish farms off the migration routes during smolt migrations.

When I asked for a moratorium on open net fish farms until the new regulations were put in place and until after the judicial inquiry on the collapse of the sockeye salmon, DFO's answer was no.

Why doesn't the rule to limit impact on declining species apply to the farms?

The DFO plan does not include closed containment. If we use technology to keep the farm and wild fish separate, we will have a thriving fish farm industry into the future, while keeping our Pacific salmon and the industries and ecosystems the Pacific salmon support.

At the DFO meeting a representative from the provincial Ministry of the Environment told us that he is in discussion with companies that believe land-based closed-containment fish farms are commercially available and financially viable.

Please write the Prime Minister and Gail Shea, Minister of DFO and urge our federal government to move open net fish farms to closed containment before any expansion and in the interim, to heed the scientists request to move open net fish farms off the Fraser migration routes during smolt migrations.

Leona Adams"
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 13, 2013, 07:20:47 PM
Hey farmfisherbawb - I hear Enbridge is hiring in the Fairy Tales department AND I understand there's a serious opportunity in Inuvik selling air conditioners , but the high season won't start until mid November. Since you are falling flat on your face trying to convince anything above an amoeba that feedlots are good, I thought I might help guide you to an easier career path were your odds of success are at least ten times better. No need to say thank you, I just feel good about making things easier for you! :o
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 13, 2013, 08:50:40 PM
More media scare tactics that will go no where. Get back to me when Morton gets something right NB. Btw you would sound more realistic if you had the science to back up your claims young man. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 13, 2013, 09:08:55 PM
More spinning from Morton.
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/08/13/step-right-up-and-spin-the-wheel-of-fish/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Bently on August 13, 2013, 09:30:56 PM
My feeling is this,

It's too bad we have to put up with her BS antics and squabble all the time, sure if there is something "proven" then by all means she has a right to say something about it, just like everybody else does, but to start making accusations about this and that all the time without the factual proof then that's where the problem lies with her. As far as I know there has been nothing proven as to how these herring got this virus from a fish farm, therefor why does she feed the press ? Doesn't she know that this kind of thing works against her in the big picture ? She needs to get out of the small frame and see the stupidity of these false statements. Until you know the entire truthful facts, then shut your hole and quit looking for crumbs.

I don't much care for fish farms as much as the next guy/gal but this Morton broad ?/  personally I can't stand her myself, she kinda reminds me of a sh!tty politician, she keeps hanging around but never ever wins the election, no matter how much Bs she feeds everyone.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on August 13, 2013, 09:52:25 PM
My feeling is this,

It's too bad we have to put up with her BS antics and squabble all the time, sure if there is something "proven" then by all means she has a right to say something about it, just like everybody else does, but to start making accusations about this and that all the time without the factual proof then that's where the problem lies with her. As far as I know there has been nothing proven as to how these herring got this virus from a fish farm, therefor why does she feed the press ? Doesn't she know that this kind of thing works against her in the big picture ? She needs to get out of the small frame and see the stupidity of these false statements. Until you know the entire truthful facts, then shut your hole and quit looking for crumbs.

I don't much care for fish farms as much as the next guy/gal but this Morton broad ?/  personally I can't stand her myself, she kinda reminds me of a sh!tty politician, she keeps hanging around but never ever wins the election, no matter how much Bs she feeds everyone.

If I understand you correctly you seem to be suggesting that no one should say anything unless they have conclusive proof.....   Usually when there is conclusive proof it's already to late. When dealing with wild salmon stocks shouldn't the precautionary principle be applied?

You know the saying "Where there's smoke there is fire..." If we wait till we see the fire before talking about it or better yet doing something about it the damage may be irreversible.

Morton is close enough to the situation, committed and concerned enough to be hollering "fire". DFO on the other hand is sitting there saying "There is no fire, now let's come up with a PR plan to convince the public that there is no fire".
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on August 13, 2013, 09:57:12 PM
If I understand you correctly you seem to be suggesting that no one should say anything unless they have conclusive proof.....   Usually when there is conclusive proof it's already to late. When dealing with wild salmon stocks shouldn't the precautionary principle be applied?

You know the saying "Where there's smoke there is fire..." If we wait till we see the fire before talking about it or better yet doing something about it the damage may be irreversible.

Morton is close enough to the situation, committed and concerned enough to be hollering "fire". DFO on the other hand is sitting there saying "There is no fire, now let's come up with a PR plan to convince the public that there is no fire".
And many feel those that work for governments are being conrolled in what they say. There is a number of media articles that have reported that.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on August 13, 2013, 10:19:34 PM
And many feel those that work for governments are being conrolled in what they say. There is a number of media articles that have reported that.

Many feel that those that follow Morton are being controlled in what they say and what they read.  There are a number of media articles that feature Morton's opinion that do not report the whole story.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on August 14, 2013, 05:49:10 AM
Many feel that those that follow Morton are being controlled in what they say and what they read.  There are a number of media articles that feature Morton's opinion that do not report the whole story.
Thats newspapers for you. ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 14, 2013, 07:02:44 AM
Many feel that those that follow Morton are being controlled in what they say and what they read.  There are a number of media articles that feature Morton's opinion that do not report the whole story.

No kidding. Read PravdaFarmfisherbawb's links and posts.....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on August 14, 2013, 03:49:50 PM
I seriously doubt that netpenbob owns a fishing rod. ;D Judging by his non posts on anything else but Morton and his cash cow gift to her.

He could be called part of the problem for people who don't like to hear from Morton. Now like a reformed smoker he's all over her. Constantly reminding us about her with links to other sites with stories about her.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 15, 2013, 07:35:26 AM
I seriously doubt that netpenbob owns a fishing rod. ;D Judging by his non posts on anything else but Morton and his cash cow gift to her.

He could be called part of the problem for people who don't like to hear from Morton. Now like a reformed smoker he's all over her. Constantly reminding us about her with links to other sites with stories about her.
When you get angry when some one on the internet posts information that is outside your little box,,, pay attention, you are about to learn something TB. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 15, 2013, 07:41:31 AM
More fiction from Morton.
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/08/14/morbo-says-virus-testing-does-not-work-that-way/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 18, 2013, 11:30:02 AM
Sockeye news.
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/bc-fisheries-news-watch-august-16-2013
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 19, 2013, 07:25:14 AM
www,farmfisherbawbsboguslinksandselfservingpropaganda.com
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 19, 2013, 10:59:08 AM
http://bcseafood.ca/about/stats.php
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on August 19, 2013, 05:15:54 PM
www,farmfisherbawbsboguslinksandselfservingpropaganda.com

Yup great link even has Bawb showering sea lice off his bawd. Thank bob the link is censored.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 19, 2013, 05:16:52 PM
I doubt you'll read this farmfisherbawb, but give it a whirl.....(and I trust these people a lot more than the self back patting crap you post)


http://www.watershed-watch.org/issues/salmon-farming/updates/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 20, 2013, 09:15:59 AM
I doubt you'll read this farmfisherbawb, but give it a whirl.....(and I trust these people a lot more than the self back patting crap you post)


http://www.watershed-watch.org/issues/salmon-farming/updates/
Thanks but I have already donated to that type of site before. I would have to be Bonkers to continue to donate to that bug hunters gone wild doom and gloom we want your money crap again. :)
Btw Bonkers, better let you class mates at WW they need to step it up. :)
http://www.globalsalmoninitiative.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/GSI-Press-Release-FINAL1.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on August 20, 2013, 12:58:00 PM
fisherbob, i generally read the links you post.

I think this book would be a good read for you, its funny, well written and you can bang it off in 5 minute segments while you sit on the thrown.

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Call-Is-Important-Us/dp/1400081041
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 20, 2013, 02:31:42 PM
fisherbob, i generally read the links you post.

I think this book would be a good read for you, its funny, well written and you can bang it off in 5 minute segments while you sit on the thrown.

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Call-Is-Important-Us/dp/1400081041
Funny thing is I have that book banx. :). Everyone likes a "good" bs story and I find it far more entertaining these days than the BS stories Morton and her parrots put out that were debunked far before salmon farming started.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on August 20, 2013, 09:05:49 PM
hahaha I thought you would enjoy it.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 21, 2013, 10:49:05 AM
Funny thing is I have that book banx. :). Everyone likes a "good" bs story and I find it far more entertaining these days than the BS stories Morton and her parrots put out that were debunked far before salmon farming started.

And the fish farms are the APEX, THE ABSOLUTE PARAGON of truth? Here's a book you will also enjoy Farmfisherbawb.....

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/banner_fairy_tales_zps10a58003.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/banner_fairy_tales_zps10a58003.gif.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 21, 2013, 04:11:06 PM
And the fish farms are the APEX, THE ABSOLUTE PARAGON of truth? Here's a book you will also enjoy Farmfisherbawb.....

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/banner_fairy_tales_zps10a58003.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/banner_fairy_tales_zps10a58003.gif.html)
I expected nothing more from you. Keep up the wit young man hehe. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 22, 2013, 02:32:34 PM
Oh boy.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=498
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 22, 2013, 08:30:10 PM
Ah - the Brothers Grimm. I'm impressed with your literary knowledge in Fairy Tales!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 22, 2013, 09:37:45 PM
Ah - the Brothers Grimm. I'm impressed with your literary knowledge in Fairy Tales!
I will take that as a compliment from a fairy tale know it all. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 23, 2013, 07:50:39 PM
I've learned at your feet, Grand Master Farmfisherbawb. And besides, Fairy Tales might have a grain of truth, while the links you post don't! :o
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 24, 2013, 06:28:48 PM
I've learned at your feet, Grand Master Farmfisherbawb. And besides, Fairy Tales might have a grain of truth, while the links you post don't! :o
Hold on to that grain of thought as long as you can young man. As salmon do, the real world can bite at times. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 24, 2013, 08:44:35 PM
News week.
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/bc-fisheries-news-watch-august-23-2013
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 26, 2013, 08:29:09 AM
Quinsam Salmon Run 2013.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T62OzfACzQY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DT62OzfACzQY
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 26, 2013, 03:24:09 PM
Just imagine if the feedlots weren't in operation.....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 26, 2013, 08:11:44 PM
Most likely would be worse. Ask your American friends.  I am imagining how it might be if Morton would put the money given to her to salmon enhancement instead of to circus acts.  :)
Btw poacher caught.

http://www.cheknews.ca/?bckey=AQ%7E%7E%2CAAAA4mHNTzE%7E%2CejlzBnGUUKY1gXVPwEwEepl35Y795rND&bclid=975107450001&bctid=2630588555001
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 26, 2013, 08:49:42 PM
Every cast, I get a bite. ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: alwaysfishn on August 26, 2013, 09:07:02 PM
Every cast, I get a bite. ;D

Unfortunately all your catching is a sucker....   ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 26, 2013, 09:11:51 PM
Every cast, I get a bite. ;D
If your bait didn't taste like propaganda you might be able to reel one in lol. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 27, 2013, 10:41:38 AM
Unfortunately all your catching is a sucker....   ;D

Nope - It's a farm raised Atlantic frankenfish - See below: ;D


(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/funny-fishing.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/funny-fishing.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 28, 2013, 11:18:05 AM
Tid-bits :)

http://seafood.ucdavis.edu/pubs/farmed_and_wild_salmon.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 29, 2013, 02:10:45 PM
Tidbits? Here's a smorgasbord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Y71cEIbHQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N78SSfi2c4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zga8e6s_qs

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 29, 2013, 02:36:08 PM
Tidbits? Here's a smorgasbord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Y71cEIbHQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N78SSfi2c4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zga8e6s_qs

Investing in foreign interest still Bonkers? Lol :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 30, 2013, 05:48:08 AM
Did any of those company names ring a bell Farmfisherbawb? Like , oh , Marine Harvest? If there's problems elsewhere....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 30, 2013, 10:20:11 AM
Did any of those company names ring a bell Farmfisherbawb? Like , oh , Marine Harvest? If there's problems elsewhere....
Can you find any anti fish-farm propaganda about the farms in Maine, Washington, and Alaska. Seems to me that I would have to be bonkers not to see the self serving US foreign interest BS that you have posted. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 30, 2013, 12:00:48 PM
You posted this on another thred NB and I thought you would find this link very interesting. Follow the money.  :)

"Any company not from Canadian soil. We are an exceedingly wealthy nation and I can see no reason why we need increasingly allowing foreign ownership of Canada and it's resources, but giving it away as well as shoveling money at them is a disgrace." =NB.
http://youtu.be/ZFj7yTHDp6w
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 02, 2013, 08:45:03 AM
What we are not to talk about.

http://actforaquaculture.ca/reflect/what-the-anti-ocean-farmed-salmon-idealists-dont-like-to-talk-about/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 03, 2013, 06:11:06 AM
More self serving codswallop.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 03, 2013, 09:53:32 AM
Does anyone know how this is coming along?

http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=7562924
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 03, 2013, 09:15:54 PM
http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/news/metro/Environmental+pressure+creates+demand+sustainable+fish/7562923/story.html?rel=7562924
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 03, 2013, 11:29:07 PM
You posted this on another thred NB and I thought you would find this link very interesting. Follow the money.  :)

"Any company not from Canadian soil. We are an exceedingly wealthy nation and I can see no reason why we need increasingly allowing foreign ownership of Canada and it's resources, but giving it away as well as shoveling money at them is a disgrace." =NB.
http://youtu.be/ZFj7yTHDp6w
^^^Bonkers^^^hypocrite that can not answer a simple question and promotes American products :)
 http://youtu.be/XkEt965hZFo
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 03, 2013, 11:31:16 PM
Does anyone know how this is coming along?

http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=7562924
Anyone? I would like to know what they are fed, where the feed comes from, what chemicals are used. Transparency is what tax paying Canadians want is it not? I am sure the organic farmers would like to know also. Just a fair question. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Sandman on September 04, 2013, 06:56:53 AM
Anyone? I would like to know what they are fed, where the feed comes from, what chemicals are used. Transparency is what tax paying Canadians want is it not? I am sure the organic farmers would like to know also. Just a fair question. :)

They are, apparently, trying to use feed that is "sustainable" but I have not been able to locate the details as of yet.  However, by raising the fish to maturity faster, they will use 30% less feed than open net pens so that alone is an improvement.  This is the primary difference between the salmon ranching and open net pens that Suzuki is opposed to as growing salmon to maturity requires a lot more feed that growing them to a smaller size (big fish eat more than small fish) so there is less need for the highly concentrated food pellets.  This is one of the few reasons ranching is seen by some to be better than open net pens ( less time in crowded pens means less chance for diseases to grow and spread is another, the down side obviously being that if the disease has already cultured and the penned salmon are released for "ranching", there is a greater likelihood the diseases could spread to wild stocks around the Pacific basin.  While we are all in agreement that the proper management of wild stocks is ideal, there really is no real contradiction when comparing to open net pens.  It is the case of choosing the lesser of two evils.  Neither is good for wild salmon, other than to serve to provide fisherman with alternative salmon to catch and kill so more wild fish can escape to spawn ( the role of hatcheries since their inception). However, there has long been the concern with just culturing fish in hatcheries for "enhancement" that the solution was doing more harm than good.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 04, 2013, 07:43:06 AM
^^^Bonkers^^^hypocrite that can not answer a simple question and promotes American products :)
 http://youtu.be/XkEt965hZFo

Huh? Oh, I see. I'm supposed to be a trained seal! I'm sorry, but I wasn't up to speed on that. My bad.

 ::)

No, I must admit, they didn't include me on that panel and I'm not privy to that information.But, however, I will state I don't promote Norwegian companies with pathetic track and dismal environmental records. ;)  I will give myself 10 purple nurples and a noogie for this horrible transgression , Oh He Who Must Be Answered And Grand Master Of The Known Universe Who Knows All And Sees All.

Anyone? I would like to know what they are fed, where the feed comes from, what chemicals are used. Transparency is what tax paying Canadians want is it not? I am sure the organic farmers would like to know also. Just a fair question. :)
Wow - you call me a hypocrite and THEN spew all that is wrong with the feedlots, after forever telling us that farmed salmon are wonderful.HILARIOUS!

Once a month?
http://www.albany.edu/ihe/salmonstudy/pressrelease.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 04, 2013, 09:08:21 AM
All that study says to me is buy American farmed fish. Nice advertising Bonkers. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 04, 2013, 09:41:58 AM
All that study says to me is buy American farmed fish. Nice advertising Bonkers. :)

Really? I read that it said NOT to eat farmed salmon more than once a month because of the chemical load. However, you won't have to worry about my educational seminars much longer as I've just been diagnosed with a potentially fatal health issue. I'll have to pass the torch to someone else to debunk your stream.
Carry on.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 04, 2013, 09:53:32 AM
http://bc.ctvnews.ca/farmed-vs-wild-salmon-which-is-better-1.485140
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 10, 2013, 03:47:02 PM
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/

Head shake time.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=507
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 11, 2013, 02:38:00 PM
Blah, blah blah. Next up for Farmfisherbawb - THE EARTH IS REALLY FLAT!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 11, 2013, 02:44:02 PM
http://salmonconfidential.com/awwk-pieces-of-virus-more-lies/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 11, 2013, 08:46:52 PM
Wrong forum. These folks will welcome you with open arms.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 12, 2013, 10:28:53 AM
Its good to see you still have your humour NB :).


http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=101172
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 13, 2013, 05:39:25 AM
http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/believers.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 13, 2013, 07:31:53 AM
Good news :)

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/pink-salmon-reaching-fraser-river-in-massive-numbers/article14298697/?service=mobile
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 16, 2013, 02:53:55 PM
American born Morton should be on top of her own countries fishing and farming practises.

 http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 16, 2013, 04:10:16 PM
http://www.ufosightingsdaily.com/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 16, 2013, 06:03:07 PM
But there is some fish farms that take more environmental responsibility. I'd like to know what feed they use and how the waste is disposed of, but it looks like a good project IMHO. See Farmfisherbawb, I'm not totally anti.

http://globalnews.ca/news/844305/manitoba-farm-makes-name-for-itself-raising-arctic-char/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 16, 2013, 07:55:05 PM
But there is some fish farms that take more environmental responsibility. I'd like to know what feed they use and how the waste is disposed of, but it looks like a good project IMHO. See Farmfisherbawb, I'm not totally anti.

http://globalnews.ca/news/844305/manitoba-farm-makes-name-for-itself-raising-arctic-char/

That is great to see a small family diversify their farming. Do you really think that all the families up and down the west coast that once depended on wild fisheries and processing could do this? Many are farmers now. Btw it does not look like that Manitoba farm employes many people. Good to see a family business doing well for them selves though. :) 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 17, 2013, 06:44:56 PM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/09/17/science-without-data-is-scientific-malpractice/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on September 17, 2013, 11:29:13 PM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/09/17/science-without-data-is-scientific-malpractice/

thanks for more blah blah blah. Why don't you post a pic of the last fish you caught eh. :-\
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 18, 2013, 04:59:11 AM
thanks for more blah blah blah. Why don't you post a pic of the last fish you caught eh. :-\

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY4EZGBKMRE
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on September 18, 2013, 08:30:33 AM
good one  ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 18, 2013, 12:26:47 PM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/09/18/why-kibenges-lab-lost-its-reference-status/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 19, 2013, 09:26:59 PM
Who is the muzzler?
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=531
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 20, 2013, 05:57:19 AM
Do you ever post anything beyond salmonfarmnonsense or farmfreshsortalikesalmonbutmutatedanddyed?

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on September 20, 2013, 05:30:05 PM
Who is the muzzler?
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=531
Been away 5 weeks, recreating ...  thanks for the links Fisherbob showing Almo losing even more credibility, LOL!

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 21, 2013, 07:33:20 AM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/09/18/why-kibenges-lab-lost-its-reference-status/


(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/BlahBlah_zps2755c09d.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/BlahBlah_zps2755c09d.gif.html) >:(
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on September 21, 2013, 06:59:37 PM
However, you won't have to worry about my educational seminars much longer as I've just been diagnosed with a potentially fatal health issue. I'll have to pass the torch to someone else to debunk your stream.
Carry on.
Nova, I have been away awhile and am attempting to catch up.  Obviously, we disagree on a few things but health issues are far more important than our rants.   Good luck with what's on your plate.

Dave
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 22, 2013, 06:28:10 AM
Thanks Dave. When I had my biceps reattached this summer, they found am anomaly in my blood work. Next specialist is in mid October. I'll see where it goes from here.
I never take anything too seriously and bear no malice. Did you ever meet a good old fashioned Maritimer that didn't like a good argument? ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 24, 2013, 02:33:35 PM
Breaking news from Washington Post

http://m.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/farmed-vs-wild-salmon-can-you-taste-the-difference/2013/09/23/3a2650a2-1fcb-11e3-8459-657e0c72fec8_story.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 24, 2013, 03:41:56 PM
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/BlahBlah_zps2755c09d.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/BlahBlah_zps2755c09d.gif.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on September 24, 2013, 04:07:54 PM
Breaking news from Washington Post

http://m.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/farmed-vs-wild-salmon-can-you-taste-the-difference/2013/09/23/3a2650a2-1fcb-11e3-8459-657e0c72fec8_story.html
Another good post FB.  I have eaten lots of wild salmon and quite a few farmed Atlantic's, mainly from Costco ... definitely a texture difference, Atlantic's being fattier and a bit softer.  But, IMO, a frozen Pacific salmon tastes about the same as a fresh Atlantic. Both damn good!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 25, 2013, 07:16:12 AM
Another good post FB.  I have eaten lots of wild salmon and quite a few farmed Atlantic's, mainly from Costco ... definitely a texture difference, Atlantic's being fattier and a bit softer.  But, IMO, a frozen Pacific salmon tastes about the same as a fresh Atlantic. Both damn good!
Thanks Dave. Have to agree with you. I like to smoke and pickle my catch and just lately found farmed is great on the Bbq. I haven't had a chance to try this recipe yet, but it looks good :). 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LjgOcJoyJto&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLjgOcJoyJto
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on September 26, 2013, 06:16:35 PM
"I like to smoke and pickle my catch and just lately found farmed is great on the Bbq."

Your talking about pork right?  :-\
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 10, 2013, 10:25:41 AM
"I like to smoke and pickle my catch and just lately found farmed is great on the Bbq."

Your talking about pork right?  :-\
You are so smart TB :) perhaps you can answer these questions. I don't think Morton can or will.

 http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=579
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 10, 2013, 11:09:31 AM
come on bob..... reading anything from "farmfreshsalmon.org"  is like believing everything on FOX news.

do you have anything not paid for by a farm?   

the whole reason I posted that "your call is important to us" link  is because your rebuttals all come from a lobbyist point of view.  These farms are employing public relations companies.

if your paying someone to help you with publlic relations. you are doing something wrong.  that is a fact.  and quite possibly the only fact on these 27 some odd pages.

farming is needed. I agree, but telling anyone here that you are doing it right. is as close to a full on lie as possible.

There are thousands of people like me, who 'disagree' whith what is taking place in our oceans, but will say nothing in a  thread like this and may only exercise there beliefs by not buying your product.

very few people have the time, resources available, or the intelligence to debate you on these issues.  I do appluad that few that try and express their beliefs.

the only thing I can say is that when you hit 'post' understand that most of the information you are trying to get across is treated as probably some of the most fertile manure this side of the rockies.

farms are not the sole contributor to the decline of salmon stocks.  but your  hands are very dirty, so stop telling us they are clean.


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 10, 2013, 12:17:37 PM
banx, the two commentors in the link supplied by fisherbob have nothing to do farmfreshsalmon.org. Which comment do you disagree with?
With a bit of sluething you should be able to determine one of the writers. Trust me, he knows his stuff and is not involved in salmon farming at all.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 10, 2013, 01:22:31 PM
sorry, I'm talking about the multitude of posts starting with "frshfarmedsalmon" or "farmalliance" or "farmingisgood" etc etc etc it was a generalization... I should have been more specific.  I'm not talkin about shushwapsteve either.  or the actual article condemning salmon confidential.

just every retort is supported by www.freshfarmsalmon.com

I'm not a morton fan or supporter. I read the technical papers and understand them (most haha).  My only issue is that the 'science' used, if I can be so general does not take it into account the future.  what I mean by this is that there is always a potential for mutation.  it's why we have thumbs.

saying a virus won't jump from atlantic to pacific salmon is being optimistic to say the least.  I'm not a scientist but I am very aware of the fact that as humans have developed technology we have been wrong about a lot of things.  We have had several examples in recent years regarding virus mutations and its ability to jump species...... Also saying a fish who carries a virus is not suffering from the disease is an interesting way to play down the severity of it.

That is like saying someone who has HSPV but is not suffering an outbreak, doesn't really have herpes. 

with so much to lose, I really hope the 'science' holds up.... but it's tough to believe when the research is paid for by a special interest group. 

You can see the full circle in cattle farming, where we pumped our cows with corn and gave ourselves heart disease. kept them packed in pens, pumped them with hormones and antibiotics. now cows are starting to eat grass (what a shocker) and surprise surprise the meat does not contain the same bad cholesterol and fats that corn fed cows have. maybe you know someone argentinian and they can elaborate more on this....

so, if you farm things in a way thats basically wrong, such as the way things are done now in open pens. stuff is going to go wrong, the animals, in this case, fish, will get sick, the product will be of a lesser quality and they will then need to employ someone to tell me how good their product really is. 

it's incredibly tough to support open pen fish farming as it is taking place right now.
and like I said farms can't be the sole reason for salmon stock collapses.  just a variable in the equation. and one that should be controlled.
 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 10, 2013, 02:26:25 PM
sorry, I'm talking about the multitude of posts starting with "frshfarmedsalmon" or "farmalliance" or "farmingisgood" etc etc etc it was a generalization... I should have been more specific.  I'm not talkin about shushwapsteve either.  or the actual article condemning salmon confidential.

just every retort is supported by www.freshfarmsalmon.com

I'm not a morton fan or supporter. I read the technical papers and understand them (most haha).  My only issue is that the 'science' used, if I can be so general does not take it into account the future.  what I mean by this is that there is always a potential for mutation.  it's why we have thumbs.

saying a virus won't jump from atlantic to pacific salmon is being optimistic to say the least.  I'm not a scientist but I am very aware of the fact that as humans have developed technology we have been wrong about a lot of things.  We have had several examples in recent years regarding virus mutations and its ability to jump species...... Also saying a fish who carries a virus is not suffering from the disease is an interesting way to play down the severity of it.

That is like saying someone who has HSPV but is not suffering an outbreak, doesn't really have herpes. 

with so much to lose, I really hope the 'science' holds up.... but it's tough to believe when the research is paid for by a special interest group. 

You can see the full circle in cattle farming, where we pumped our cows with corn and gave ourselves heart disease. kept them packed in pens, pumped them with hormones and antibiotics. now cows are starting to eat grass (what a shocker) and surprise surprise the meat does not contain the same bad cholesterol and fats that corn fed cows have. maybe you know someone argentinian and they can elaborate more on this....

so, if you farm things in a way thats basically wrong, such as the way things are done now in open pens. stuff is going to go wrong, the animals, in this case, fish, will get sick, the product will be of a lesser quality and they will then need to employ someone to tell me how good their product really is. 

it's incredibly tough to support open pen fish farming as it is taking place right now.
and like I said farms can't be the sole reason for salmon stock collapses.  just a variable in the equation. and one that should be controlled.
Good post.  Like all farming practices, they evolve and get better over time.  Salmon farming is really in it's infancy here in BC and improvements are happening regularly. Certainly these farms aren't perfect but what animal husbandry efforts, anywhere, are?  Salmon farms aren't going away from BC and imo they are being controlled to the best of todays technology. The fact that there has been no documented incident of Pacific salmon being negatively impacted by farmed Atlantics in over 30 years here in BC tells me salmon farmers are doing the best they can. If they did otherwise they would be out of business.
 
Personally I am far more concerned with the other variables you alluded to.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 10, 2013, 04:15:05 PM
Dave I,m pretty sure you meant salmon farming is being done by infants in BC. Doing it the cheap wreckless way that provides the most payback.

I make some typos too so were not all perfect.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 10, 2013, 04:27:34 PM
Dave I,m pretty sure you meant salmon farming is being done by infants in BC. Doing it the cheap wreckless way that provides the most payback.

I make some typos too so were not all perfect.

Lol! missed you!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 11, 2013, 09:29:28 AM
Honesty in a nut shell :)

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/how-dishonest-fictional-%E2%80%9Cdocumentary%E2%80%9D-salmon-confidential
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 11, 2013, 01:17:55 PM

just every retort is supported by www.freshfarmsalmon.com



 


And therein lies the crux of the "reports". Self serving propaganda - have any of the supporting firms of that website ever been caught telling whoppers or for that matter, any of the feedlots? Think hard and google hard before you answer....... Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice?Not going to happen. I ain't that stupid.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 11, 2013, 04:59:42 PM
I would expect that the people you are talking about have all told a fib or two
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 12, 2013, 12:32:03 AM
Also saying a fish who carries a virus is not suffering from the disease is an interesting way to play down the severity of it.

Wrong.  It is not playing down the severity of it at all.  As mentioned many times already, it is stating a reality that happens in biological systems.  The problem is that fish farm critics are refusing to try to understand the difference between having a virus and having a disease.  They use the two interchangeably and that is wrong.  They also fail to understand that adult Pacific Salmon can carry a host of endemic pathogens most of their lives which may not prove fatal.  On the spawning grounds, a salmon carcass can have many pathogens inside, but trying to say that one caused the death over another is often very difficult.  Many of these endemic pathogens were documented for the public in Cohen Technical Report #1.  The interaction between pathogen, host and environment is not just a simple formula where if a fish gets a virus then it is instantly doomed.  Actually, the pathogen itself may not be the overriding factor and definitely not the only factor.  Environmental conditions can play a big role; however, even when you think certain environmental conditions will be ripe for disease it is not obvious in the success of spawn which can still end up being very good.

Quote
with so much to lose, I really hope the 'science' holds up.... but it's tough to believe when the research is paid for by a special interest group.

What research are you referring to?  When it comes to PRV and HSMI (in the link Bob supplied) did you know that much of the information I obtained was taken from Ms Morton's own blog and the Salmonconfidential website?  Are you suggesting that those studies (mostly from Norway) that Morton cites and uses as evidence for her theories on PRV and HSMI are paid for by a special interest group?  Do you believe it is important to mention all relevant information in these studies in order to provide the public with all the facts - not just certain ones that may align with one's own opinion?

Quote
so, if you farm things in a way thats basically wrong, such as the way things are done now in open pens. stuff is going to go wrong, the animals, in this case, fish, will get sick, the product will be of a lesser quality and they will then need to employ someone to tell me how good their product really is.

Survival rates of farmed salmon in BC is between 90 and 95%.  It is in the best interests of the farmers to optimize the health of their fish as much as possible.  It is no different from land-based agriculture where farmers/ranchers optimize the health of their cattle or crops.  Because the majority of it is exported outside of our borders it does not make sense to a produce fish of lesser quality especially when there is competition elsewhere.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 12, 2013, 08:16:52 AM
Steve, yes I am very aware of the difference between disease and a virus.  Even though a salmon may suffer from many pathogens.  Those pathogens were present in the natural environment for millennia.  The pathogens contributed to the environment by the precence Atlantic salmon is new.  And the presence of Atlantic salmon can be controlled.

I had already mentioned that I don't support Morton, she was proven to be a stretcher of the truth.  And if the science was paid for by a special interest group it can be taken with a grain of truth if it comes from either side of the argument..... I also don't have the time to go through the hundreds of links being tossed around this forum.  But my main concern was a paper ensuring that virus mutation could not happen.  It's probably a few pages back and starts with www.freshfarmedsalmon.com  I would expect :)

The real fact. And Steve you can take it as you wish. But the fact that farms employ public relations companies means they are doing something wrong.  And a 95% survival rate is great.....because they are pumped full of drugs.  The meat is of a lesser quality. And always will be because it's unnatural.  This applies to beef, chicken, pork etc etc

I really don't know how people can be stewards of the environment and support open pen farms.  Because as a sport fisher, you generally respect your environment and care about its future.  Maybe you have a son in law working for a farm, or possibly stock options in a pension. And doing the best you can sounds like an excuse.  I think yoga said it best. Do or do not. There is no try
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 12, 2013, 11:48:41 AM
Fish farming takes over beef.

http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2013/update114
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 12, 2013, 04:07:35 PM
Fish farming takes over beef.

http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2013/update114
[/quote
Thanks for another interesting link Fisherbob ... and it's not from fish farmers ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 12, 2013, 05:25:09 PM
ya fish farming is taking over beef, we don't need the rainforest for oxygen, so why would we need the oceans.

 "As cattle ranches have displaced biologically rich rainforests, fish farms have displaced mangrove forests that provide important fish nursery habitats and protect coasts during storms. Worldwide, aquaculture is thought to be responsible for more than half of all mangrove loss, mostly for shrimp farming. In the Philippines, some two thirds of the country’s mangroves—over 100,000 hectares—have been removed for shrimp farming over the last 40 years."

could this also be applied to the dead zones around pens in canada. on both coasts?

just a beauty of an article, makes me all warm and fuzzy for the future.

"On the fish feed front, fishmeal producers are incorporating more seafood scraps into their products; today roughly a third of fishmeal is made up of food fish trimmings and other by-products. And some fish farmers are substituting livestock and poultry processing wastes and plant-based feeds for fishmeal and oil, which does not sound particularly appetizing, but does reduce pressure on wild stocks. From a sustainability standpoint, however, it would be preferable to shift the balance back in favor of farmed fish raised without feeds based on food grains, oilseeds, and protein from other animals."

miller light said it best I suppose:  "tastes great, less filling"
and if farmed fish, for sustainablility purposes, dont eat "food grains, oilseeds and protein from other animals" what the hell are they supposed to eat?  coffee and cigarettes?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 12, 2013, 05:42:16 PM
time to breathe banx ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 12, 2013, 09:01:53 PM
The other by-products usually don't get printed up, because people don't like eating feces fed fish. Feces from all animals fed to farmed fish. That's why they taste so shi&&y. ;D Goes for Basa etc.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 13, 2013, 12:39:56 AM
Steve, yes I am very aware of the difference between disease and a virus.  Even though a salmon may suffer from many pathogens.  Those pathogens were present in the natural environment for millennia.  The pathogens contributed to the environment by the precence Atlantic salmon is new.  And the presence of Atlantic salmon can be controlled.

I don't follow after "virus".  What point are you trying to make?

Quote
[I had already mentioned that I don't support Morton, she was proven to be a stretcher of the truth.  And if the science was paid for by a special interest group it can be taken with a grain of truth if it comes from either side of the argument..... I also don't have the time to go through the hundreds of links being tossed around this forum.  But my main concern was a paper ensuring that virus mutation could not happen.  It's probably a few pages back and starts with www.freshfarmedsalmon.com  I would expect :)

With the exception of Ms Morton's virus surveillance work, the science that is being referred to "most" of the time is actually pretty good (IMO).  The issue I have is that science with this issue is being purposely misinterpreted in most cases to align with one's opinion.  If we really want science to hold up then we need to stop manipulating what these researchers are saying and look at all the results and conclusions.  I think it is hypocritical for Ms Morton to partake in a rally which is about "Standing Up For Science" when she is one of the worst offenders of misinterpreting science as well as censoring additional information from them (i.e. Dr. Miller) which adds important context.  Lastly, scientific authors like Ms Morton should expect questions about their work and be able to provide responses to those questions instead of ducking and running while at the same time making unsubstantiated claims under the shroud of science.   

Quote
The real fact. And Steve you can take it as you wish. But the fact that farms employ public relations companies means they are doing something wrong.  And a 95% survival rate is great.....because they are pumped full of drugs.  The meat is of a lesser quality. And always will be because it's unnatural.  This applies to beef, chicken, pork etc etc

I really don't know how people can be stewards of the environment and support open pen farms.  Because as a sport fisher, you generally respect your environment and care about its future.  Maybe you have a son in law working for a farm, or possibly stock options in a pension. And doing the best you can sounds like an excuse.  I think yoga said it best. Do or do not. There is no try

I disagree that reason fish farm companies employ public relations companies means they are doing something wrong.  Many industries, government agencies and NGOs have communications personnel to deal with inquiries from the media and general public as well as relaying information.  In the case of BC fish farms, I am interested in what you believe these public relation companies are considering that companies like Marine Harvest and Mainstream have staff that frequently response to media articles and questions from the public.

There is more to having a high survival rate than just the use of drugs.  What are all these drugs that farmed fish here in BC are having pumped into them?  If they are "pumped full" as you claim then what quantities are we talking about?  Are you aware that proper fish husbandry (even at fish hatcheries) employs many techniques to optimize fish health - not specifically drugs?  That includes biosecurity protocols and procedures; feed practices; reducing stress; and routinely monitoring fish health.  Secondly, medication is used as required - not preventively.  In fact, most of the feed used (98%) contains no medicines.  Thirdly, antibiotics used in BC farmed fish are veterinarian prescribed, so it is not just uncontrolled usage.   Fourthly, BC farmed fish are vaccinated to boost their immune systems and last only long enough to provoke an immune response.  Lastly, hormones and genetic modifications are not used in farmed fish in BC to promote growth (as you attempt to draw parallels to the terrestrial agriculture).  Those are the facts.

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/antibiotics.htm

Sorry, I don't have any family members or friends that work for a fish farm although I know members here that have more experience than I do with aquaculture (namely absolon).  I also do not have stock options in a pension relating to a fish farm....sorry again. 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 13, 2013, 08:14:50 AM
I don't follow after "virus".  What point are you trying to make?

You said that a salmon can carry many pathogens and not suffer from a disease. I'm sure they can with the pathogens that were present during their evolution. The introduction of new ones is the problem, sure these new pathogens aren't getting things sick yet..... but it's still early. and you have no guarantees on that.

"I disagree that reason fish farm companies employ public relations companies means they are doing something wrong.  Many industries, government agencies and NGOs have communications personnel to deal with inquiries from the media and general public as well as relaying information."

you make my point for me with that statement. you also inserted 'communications personnel' which takes the bite out of public relations.

"There is more to having a high survival rate than just the use of drugs.  What are all these drugs that farmed fish here in BC are having pumped into them?  If they are "pumped full" as you claim then what quantities are we talking about?  Are you aware that proper fish husbandry (even at fish hatcheries) employs many techniques to optimize fish health - not specifically drugs?  That includes biosecurity protocols and procedures; feed practices; reducing stress; and routinely monitoring fish health.  Secondly, medication is used as required - not preventively.  In fact, most of the feed used (98%) contains no medicines.  Thirdly, antibiotics used in BC farmed fish are veterinarian prescribed, so it is not just uncontrolled usage.   Fourthly, BC farmed fish are vaccinated to boost their immune systems and last only long enough to provoke an immune response.  Lastly, hormones and genetic modifications are not used in farmed fish in BC to promote growth (as you attempt to draw parallels to the terrestrial agriculture).  Those are the facts.

1. ok I used the term 'pumped full' to sensationalize it, manipulating the language to skew one's message is pretty common I think.  Probably more so in the 'communications' industry  ;)
I also suppose that since you are using the term 'drugs' in its plural form that more than one drug is being used.

2. and it's still not enough because it takes place in the open ocean.  so regardless of these husbandry techniques it will not be enough.... these are the issues steve; open pen, drugs in the ocean, close proximity in the ocean, don't know the future problems..... this is my concern with the science holding up. I have not questioned its accuracy, only the confidence being placed in it so that these practices can continue.  no one has a clue whats going to happen in 2 generations worth of this.

3. I would hope it is prescribed by a vet.  I actually expected it. I wonder how long before there is antibiotic resistance issues as well? or have farms encountered these problems already?

4.  so the expectation there is that they will get sick.

5.  there are many parallels with terrestrial agriculture.  use of hormones and genetic modification are probably the only 2 things it doesn't have in common....The beef industry has had a lot of confrontation with people  over the years.  I'm sure you would have remembered many of them. and that is where I draw my parallels. the way it has changed over the years, decreasing density, ethical slaughter, changes because of mad cow, and its ability to jump species, and now a hipster push for grass fed antibiotic/hormone free or real beef. don't forget the other problems it faced with waste control and contamination.  these issues relate, there is no denying that.

I suppose since you have no financial connection to the salmon farming industry you just like the taste of them.... was it aquired? I know I wasn't fond of my first beer. 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 13, 2013, 08:25:21 AM
You said that a salmon can carry many pathogens and not suffer from a disease. I'm sure they can with the pathogens that were present during their evolution. The introduction of new ones is the problem, sure these new pathogens aren't getting things sick yet..... but it's still early. and you have no guarantees on that.

"I disagree that reason fish farm companies employ public relations companies means they are doing something wrong.  Many industries, government agencies and NGOs have communications personnel to deal with inquiries from the media and general public as well as relaying information."

you make my point for me with that statement. you also inserted 'communications personnel' which takes the bite out of public relations.

"There is more to having a high survival rate than just the use of drugs.  What are all these drugs that farmed fish here in BC are having pumped into them?  If they are "pumped full" as you claim then what quantities are we talking about?  Are you aware that proper fish husbandry (even at fish hatcheries) employs many techniques to optimize fish health - not specifically drugs?  That includes biosecurity protocols and procedures; feed practices; reducing stress; and routinely monitoring fish health.  Secondly, medication is used as required - not preventively.  In fact, most of the feed used (98%) contains no medicines.  Thirdly, antibiotics used in BC farmed fish are veterinarian prescribed, so it is not just uncontrolled usage.   Fourthly, BC farmed fish are vaccinated to boost their immune systems and last only long enough to provoke an immune response.  Lastly, hormones and genetic modifications are not used in farmed fish in BC to promote growth (as you attempt to draw parallels to the terrestrial agriculture).  Those are the facts.

1. ok I used the term 'pumped full' to sensationalize it, manipulating the language to skew one's message is pretty common I think.  Probably more so in the 'communications' industry  ;)
I also suppose that since you are using the term 'drugs' in its plural form that more than one drug is being used.

2. and it's still not enough because it takes place in the open ocean.  so regardless of these husbandry techniques it will not be enough.... these are the issues steve; open pen, drugs in the ocean, close proximity in the ocean, don't know the future problems..... this is my concern with the science holding up. I have not questioned its accuracy, only the confidence being placed in it so that these practices can continue.  no one has a clue whats going to happen in 2 generations worth of this.

3. I would hope it is prescribed by a vet.  I actually expected it. I wonder how long before there is antibiotic resistance issues as well? or have farms encountered these problems already?

4.  so the expectation there is that they will get sick.

5.  there are many parallels with terrestrial agriculture.  use of hormones and genetic modification are probably the only 2 things it doesn't have in common....The beef industry has had a lot of confrontation with people  over the years.  I'm sure you would have remembered many of them. and that is where I draw my parallels. the way it has changed over the years, decreasing density, ethical slaughter, changes because of mad cow, and its ability to jump species, and now a hipster push for grass fed antibiotic/hormone free or real beef. don't forget the other problems it faced with waste control and contamination.  these issues relate, there is no denying that.

I suppose since you have no financial connection to the salmon farming industry you just like the taste of them.... was it aquired? I know I wasn't fond of my first beer.

Thank you Mister Banx! Intelligent and well put, but expect farmfisherbawb to be along shortly with quotes and crap from farmfishnonsense.com. Wear your waders as it gets thick and deep with those "sources".


(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/LOL-Monty_Python_Applause.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/LOL-Monty_Python_Applause.gif.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 14, 2013, 12:00:34 AM
You said that a salmon can carry many pathogens and not suffer from a disease. I'm sure they can with the pathogens that were present during their evolution. The introduction of new ones is the problem, sure these new pathogens aren't getting things sick yet..... but it's still early. and you have no guarantees on that.

Thank you for clarifying what you meant.  I agree that the introduction of new pathogens could present a problem, but there is a lot you have omitted which provides important context to this.  First, the BC fish farm industry primarily uses its own broodstock to propagate more fish.  The fact is that imports are quite limited.  Second, if eggs are imported they are screened for exotic diseases and those resulting fish are quarantined and monitored before they are reared any further.  Additionally, species imported from outside Canada for culture must be certified disease free so no impacts are expected.  Third, fish on BC fish farms are routinely monitored for endemic and exotic diseases –more so than wild fish.  Because exotic diseases like ISA are lethal to Atlantic Salmon it is very reasonable to conclude to that if they are here in a virulent form then we should expect to see them on the farms first with very obvious and massive fish loss.  This was stated by Dr. Nylund during the Cohen Commission aquaculture hearings.  By law, the detection of exotic viruses like ISAv has to be relayed to the CFIA.  Last, recent viral surveillance work (1st year of a multi-year study) by both the Washington State and Canada has not detected ISAv.

There are no guarantees on anything – not unlike other things we do in and around water.  As for things still being “early”…well salmon farming began in BC in the 1970s and there have not been any egg imports from Norway since 1985.  Fish farm critics frequently contend that exotic viruses like ISAv have been spread by egg imports; however, to date, there is no evidence of ISA or ISAv being detected in our waters.  In respect to Fraser Sockeye, Cohen said that the evidence does not allow him to conclude whether an ISAv or ISAv-like virus currently exists (Cohen Final Report: Vol. 2; Ch. 4; pg. 60).  Despite this, I agree with Dave that it is possible that a non-virulent virus like ISAv exists off our coast, but we really have not been looking for it.  I believe that Dr. Miller did find something interesting in this when she looked retrospectively at preserved samples; however, it should also be noted that Dr. Miller suggests that her retrospective work showed that the ISAv-like virus she found could have existed here before salmon farming started in BC.  This is important information is omitted in the Salmonconfidential film.  It does not necessarily mean that a non-virulent virus cannot turn into a more virulent form, but it also does not mean that it came from salmon farms here.  Again, to date, there is no evidence of that.

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you make my point for me with that statement. you also inserted 'communications personnel' which takes the bite out of public relations.

Well, actually you sort of make the argument for communication personnel or public relations because many of your perceptions about salmon farming in BC are false.  If you would have contacted communications people like Grant Warkentin at Mainstream he would have addressed many of your perceptions about fish farming in BC.  If you still do not believe communications people the work for the BC industry than you can always visit a fish farm for yourself or even visit a federal salmon hatchery for that matter.

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1. ok I used the term 'pumped full' to sensationalize it, manipulating the language to skew one's message is pretty common I think.  Probably more so in the 'communications' industry 
I also suppose that since you are using the term 'drugs' in its plural form that more than one drug is being used.

Ok, so you are critical of the “communications industry” of covering up or smoothing out definite wrong-doing, but you decide to use terms to sensationalize and manipulate the language to make your point….then suggest that using language to skew the message is “pretty common” – probably more so in the “communications industry”.  You do understand how hypocritical you sound right now?  If you are trying to show the shortcomings of public relations and the language they use it seemed to get lost in that quote above.  Why not just keep it real?  As for more than one drug being used I am not sure how many and what types of drugs are used although I believe the number of drugs (for bacterial infections) was eluded to in the link I provided last time.

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5.  there are many parallels with terrestrial agriculture.  use of hormones and genetic modification are probably the only 2 things it doesn't have in common....The beef industry has had a lot of confrontation with people  over the years.  I'm sure you would have remembered many of them. and that is where I draw my parallels. the way it has changed over the years, decreasing density, ethical slaughter, changes because of mad cow, and its ability to jump species, and now a hipster push for grass fed antibiotic/hormone free or real beef. don't forget the other problems it faced with waste control and contamination.  these issues relate, there is no denying that.

I don’t necessarily disagree that there may be similarities with the way other industries have floundered and advanced.  I just wanted to point out that genetic modifications and hormones are not used.   Fish farming in BC has changed quite a bit since the 70s.  The way fish farmers raise fish has changed.  Analytical techniques that were likely dreamed about back in the infancy of the industry exist now.  Benthic monitoring of sites has also changed.  The regulatory environment that existed in the 70s for aquaculture here in BC is actually quite different now.  BC probably has the most stringent regulatory environment for net pen aquaculture in the world.

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I suppose since you have no financial connection to the salmon farming industry you just like the taste of them.... was it aquired? I know I wasn't fond of my first beer.

If you really need to know I prefer to eat fish that I catch locally from small lakes.  I actually prefer halibut over salmon (wild or farmed) in a restaurant given the choice.  When I do decide to eat fish from a supermarket I usually get the farmed steelhead.  In my opinion, if fish is improperly cared for after catching it or is not cooked properly it doesn’t matter whether it is farmed or wild – it will all taste sub-par.  I can also tell you other interesting things like which side I like my toilet paper to come off the roll if you like…lol.

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/reporting-rapports/egg-oeuf-eng.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 14, 2013, 08:49:25 AM
Thank you for clarifying what you meant.  I agree that the introduction of new pathogens could present a problem, but there is a lot you have omitted which provides important context to this.

There are no guarantees on anything – not unlike other things we do in and around water.  As for things still being “early”…well salmon farming began in BC in the 1970s and there have not been any egg imports from Norway since 1985.  Fish farm critics frequently contend that exotic viruses like ISAv have been spread by egg imports; however, to date, there is no evidence of ISA or ISAv being detected in our waters.  In respect to Fraser Sockeye, Cohen said that the evidence does not allow him to conclude whether an ISAv or ISAv-like virus currently exists (Cohen Final Report: Vol. 2; Ch. 4; pg. 60).  Despite this, I agree with Dave that it is possible that a non-virulent virus like ISAv exists off our coast, but we really have not been looking for it.  I believe that Dr. Miller did find something interesting in this when she looked retrospectively at preserved samples; however, it should also be noted that Dr. Miller suggests that her retrospective work showed that the ISAv-like virus she found could have existed here before salmon farming started in BC.  This is important information is omitted in the Salmonconfidential film.  It does not necessarily mean that a non-virulent virus cannot turn into a more virulent form, but it also does not mean that it came from salmon farms here.  Again, to date, there is no evidence of that.

Well, actually you sort of make the argument for communication personnel or public relations because many of your perceptions about salmon farming in BC are false.  If you would have contacted communications people like Grant Warkentin at Mainstream he would have addressed many of your perceptions about fish farming in BC.  If you still do not believe communications people the work for the BC industry than you can always visit a fish farm for yourself or even visit a federal salmon hatchery for that matter.

Ok, so you are critical of the “communications industry” of covering up or smoothing out definite wrong-doing, but you decide to use terms to sensationalize and manipulate the language to make your point….then suggest that using language to skew the message is “pretty common” – probably more so in the “communications industry”.  You do understand how hypocritical you sound right now?  If you are trying to show the shortcomings of public relations and the language they use it seemed to get lost in that quote above.  Why not just keep it real? 

How are my perceptions of farms false? what am I ommiting?

 I'm pretty sure they are done in the open ocean, the fish are kept in close proximity and a host of antibiotics and meds are used in the open ocean.  You've actually gone as far to describe the husbandry techniques in great detail. thank you. 

I tried to pull up my old facebook messages because I was in contact with a pro farm site and I had addressed my conerns to them. They are not there now. and they are the same concerns I have addressed on this forum.
I have visited a few hatcheries in my years, one of my best friends works for one.  A hatchery is in my eyes different than a farm.  I don't see farms dumping fingerlings and yearlings into the rivers so that we can try and catch them in 4 years. I've also yet to visit a hatchery that is growing fish in an open pen in the ocean. I also believe that hatchery fish stop eating pellets when they are dumped in fresh water and begin eating natural food....

you said salmon farming is not new, you gave me the years 1970 and 1985.

roughly 6 million years of evolution is a long time. 43 years seems 'early' to me. especially with pathogen mutation. these new pathogens have been introduced recently in my eyes as salmon have had millions of years to adapt or evolve to deal with the pathogens that were present in the environment during their evolution.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3352440/figure/fig01/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3352440/

Look, a few years ago sea lice was blamed on farms. The public relations companies employed by farms downplayed the issue as much as saying that farms are not responsible.  Of course now that more is known the song has changed......  the entire website called BC Salmon facts is a work of public relations art.

one fact they have on their homepage is "farmers work to protect wild salmon from sea lice" so theres your spin, from denial, to downplaying to now being stewards of the environment protecting wild salmon.

that is hypocritical. and ya so was I, and so have you been. I have been very 'real'.  There is so much to lose steve and so much were doing wrong. we have no idea what the long term consequences will be. which you admit to.  So how do you consider this endeavour a safe gamble?

saying its safe now because there are no immediate consequences in the environment is one of the most ridiculously optimistic ways of looking at farms possible. 

its wonderful that steps are in place to try and regulate and monitor. It really is.  I just feel the costs outweigh the benefits of open pen farms.



edit* I like my toilet paper to roll from the front. Aesthetically I think its more pleasing to the eye  ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 16, 2013, 01:03:49 AM
How are my perceptions of farms false? what am I omitting?

You are omitting and in some cases exaggerating the facts of salmon farming in BC.  It is right there in your posts.  First, you keep contending that fish farm companies in BC have hired public relations companies and that the research from them is from a lobbyist point of view and it is paid for by them.  I asked you who these “hired companies” are and have not received an answer.  In addition, I explained to you already that much of the science referred to by the industry in their blogs is from peer-review studies done by non-governmental scientists (i.e. universities, Pacific Salmon Commission, Norwegian Veterinary Institute; even Ms. Morton, Dr. Krkosek, and Dr. Kibenge) and governmental scientists (DFO, MOE, WDFW).  The Cohen Final Report is also referred to on those pro-fish farming sites you despise.  These pro-fish farming blogs also refer to exact follow up tests (specifically ISAv and ISA) by Morton which does not support her findings.  The funny thing is that many of these same studies are also on anti-salmon farm sites, but people like Ms Morton purposely misinterprets or omits important results in order for the study to align with her opinion.

Like anti-fish farm blogs, the BC fish farm industry and private individuals who have affiliation to fish farming and support it have the right to dispel false claims and incorrect assumptions.  I don’t fish farm and I am not affiliated with the industry but I do see why they have these blogs.  Social media is a powerful tool and if antis are going to use it then those who support fish farming are going to use it also.  If you feel like it is incorrect then you are free to post a rebuttal on their blogs.  On the other hand, in my experience, if people attempt to post fair comments on Morton’s blog or the Salmon Are Sacred webpage which do not align with the anti’s view of salmon farming they have their posts deleted.  One gentleman attempted to correct one fish farm critic on the Salmon Are Sacred site who mistakenly called a Sockeye Salmon carcass a Chinook Salmon carcass.  This critic then went onto blame salmon farms for lesions on the sides of the fish.  The person who tried to correct the obvious species misidentification had his post deleted.  Who is really covering up wrong doing?

Second, you make comparisons to cattle farming where I admit there are some similarities, but you stretch things a lot by saying they are pumped full of drugs – with reference to hormones and antibiotics.  The industry openly admits to using antibiotics, but their usage needed clarification and context which you did not mention (note that the link I provided on this did not start with Salmonfarmscience).  Hormones are not used by the BC industry, but one of your responses attempted to make this connection.

Third, you conclude that the way things are farmed in open pens (I suspect this includes BC) is wrong and then go onto to conclude that because of this fish will get sick, the product will be of a lesser quality and then someone will be needed to tell you how good the product is.  Well, I admit that the industry will say how good their product is because they certainly are not going to denounce it.  However, you have not articulated to me what exactly they are doing wrong which is going to cause their fish to get sick.  More importantly, you have not articulated “the way things are done now in open pens” to me.  If you started from a point of actual knowledge about what you were taking about I would not have replied the way I have.  As I tried to explain to you there is a lot more to fish husbandry than what many fish farm critics think they know.  Having sick fish is not in the best interests of someone trying to raise fish - either on a fish farm or in a fish hatchery.  Although raising fish on fish farms and raising fish in hatcheries have their differences they also have their similarities – notably to be proactive in preventing and monitoring pathogens and having biosecurity protocols and procedures.  I used to work at a couple fish hatcheries in my younger years.

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I'm pretty sure they are done in the open ocean, the fish are kept in close proximity and a host of antibiotics and meds are used in the open ocean.  You've actually gone as far to describe the husbandry techniques in great detail. thank you.

One thing for certain is that aquaculture is not going away.  I am not certain net pens aquaculture worldwide is going to go close containment or not, but there is certainly demand for aquaculture products (not just finfish) worldwide and it is increasing annually.  I feel that we are not going to meet demand by catching them commercially.  Catching fish like we have been in mixed stock fisheries has been far more damaging than open net pen fish farming (IMO).

Honestly, I am not particular concerned if the industry here in BC ever decides to go to close containment.  In fact, I encourage more science in this area even if the economics on a larger scale are not great right now.  I also support the Cohen recommendations and I am willing to look at any new information that may come it – good or bad for the industry, but I don’t believe critics will accept anything contrary to their beliefs in 10 years from now.

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you said salmon farming is not new, you gave me the years 1970 and 1985.

roughly 6 million years of evolution is a long time. 43 years seems 'early' to me. especially with pathogen mutation. these new pathogens have been introduced recently in my eyes as salmon have had millions of years to adapt or evolve to deal with the pathogens that were present in the environment during their evolution.

What new pathogens have been introduced recently here and how were they introduced?  We need to start somewhere so let’s start here.

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Look, a few years ago sea lice was blamed on farms. The public relations companies employed by farms downplayed the issue as much as saying that farms are not responsible.  Of course now that more is known the song has changed......  the entire website called BC Salmon facts is a work of public relations art.

one fact they have on their homepage is "farmers work to protect wild salmon from sea lice" so theres your spin, from denial, to downplaying to now being stewards of the environment protecting wild salmon.

More is known about sea lice and there are also some unknowns.  This was discussed at length in the Cohen Final Report.  BC Salmon farmers do not deny that sea lice levels can amplify near farms, but critics do not tell the whole story which includes lice levels on farms; the lack of local extinction that was predicted for Pink Salmon in the Broughton area; the use of SLICE (how much, when, impacts); the increase of Pinks in the North Pacific; fallowing of sites; the involvement fish farmers with other groups (which includes environmentalists) with regard to sea lice management (BAMP); and how fish on farms are monitored for lice.  Fish farm critics also fail to acknowledge research which runs contrary to their beliefs like the one below.  In fact you won’t find this study on Morton’s blog or the Salmonconfidential.ca website.  However, you will find it on those pro-fish farm blogs you dislike.  I can find it for you on those sites if you want.

http://icesjms.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/10/09/icesjms.fsq146.abstract

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that is hypocritical. and ya so was I, and so have you been. I have been very 'real'.  There is so much to lose steve and so much were doing wrong. we have no idea what the long term consequences will be. which you admit to.  So how do you consider this endeavour a safe gamble?

Where have I been hypocritical?  If you call saying “pumped full of drugs” being “real” then you have a much different interpretation than I.  To clarify, I also said that there are no guarantees and this goes for many (if not all) activities we do in and around water.  We do much more risky endeavours where we are actually seeing the results in some cases, but do not hold those activities to the same standard as fish farming.  I do agree that there are data gaps and these were outline by Cohen.  I am not unwilling to look at new research that comes available that might support your views, but I also realize that there are other things going on that may not have any connection to salmon farming that also need attention.

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saying its safe now because there are no immediate consequences in the environment is one of the most ridiculously optimistic ways of looking at farms possible.

Again, fish farm opponents have repeatedly stated that exotic diseases have come here via egg imports.  Egg imports are basically non-existent now as farms here use their own broodstock.  However, if these exotic viruses bypassed the biosecurity measures I said earlier and the industry here is as “dirty” as you suggest then would it be reasonable to assume that exotic diseases like ISA would be killing millions of farmed fish – especially since diseases like ISA are lethal to Atlantic Salmon.  All viruses originate from the wild and they will mutate with or without salmon farms.  It does not mean that a non-virulent virus cannot become virulent, but I don’t think we need to be creating a lot of hysteria over possible mutations.  I would rather see research like the one being proposed by DFO, the Pacific Salmon Foundation and Genome BC proceed to help provide greater insight.  Like Dave, I believe there are much greater obstacles to salmon that we should be concerned about.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 16, 2013, 08:00:53 AM
"I asked you who these “hired companies” are and have not received an answer"

Get a life, you know a sure as slice that one group is EWOS types who produce the feed for them dirty fish. Man talk about tossing red herring around. Fibfarmerbob quote right from the other ones.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 16, 2013, 08:40:27 AM
steve. I just gave you a site that was a total public relations company. and quoted them.... those are all public relation fronts.
"working to protect wild salmon"  which is hilarious. 

of course i'm going to use and manipulate the language to get my point across. its called articulation. having a vocabulary.  You do it with your eloquent posts that probably keep 98% of the people from saying anything because they don't want to be made foolish.

steve.... I'm not knocking the science. I've told you that.  It is tough to digest when it's paid for by a special interest.  regardless of which side of the fence they sit on.  like the irony of "truth in advertising"  and I will repeat I'm not a morton fan or supporter, I don't know why you keep talking about her when you reply to me. 

as for pathogens they would have been introduced when farming started.... You said that a salmon can suffer from many pathogens and not suffer from a disease.  So you agreed with me initially, then you tell me it doesn't happen?   so your saying nothing was introduced ever when farming took place?  that the ilnesses atlantic salmon suffer all came from pacific salmon? I will gladly read any info you can point me to regarding  the introduction of atlantics here in the pacific. Especially if it's related to early diseases and viruses.

is that why there are such stringent regulations in place? "some of the strictest in the world" as you said.

steve they use drugs, these drugs flow into the open oceans which you have no idea what they do to other animals. what more needs to be clarified? its drugs in the ocean.  thats the bottom line. you can quote husbandry techniques and say its vet prescribed.  but guess what, its the open ocean. is that not correct?  tell me that open net pens are not in the ocean. please tell me.

your paragrpah beginning with "third" makes my point for me, yet again.... thanks. This may be just a wild assumption, as i'm no scientist or fish farmer.  But my understanding is that when animals, fish in this case are in close proximity to each other they get sick at a much higher rate than they would in the wild or if they had more 'space'.   is that wrong also?

so the spin regarding sea lice was true.  yet you expect to have complete confidence in the farms public relations department now.  one great mind named shuswapsteve once told me something brilliant "fool me once shame on me fool me twice......."

steve, if the fish are getting sick and the food they eat has medicine in it, they are doing something wrong.  if my daughter is getting sick because of the environment I put her in. Its my fault and it means i'm doing something wrong.

you have told me i'm wrong about 5 times now, and you've been out to lunch on them. so much so that I would love to join you. I would even buy.  :)

I also agree that there are many other things that are effecting wild salmon stocks.  some we can control and some we can't.  Open pen farming is one we can.  so expect people, the misinformed, the radical, the hippie, the ones with too much time on their hands, the special interest groups, and the regular ol tax payer to question the practices and voice their concerns.

who wants fish crammed together in a pen in one of the most beautiful parts of the world defecating up a storm?   apparantly you and the farmers.

I have never in my life met anyone in person who supports open pen farming. not a soul. and i'm sure the people that have, can count their supporters on one hand.

I guess most citizens of this beautiful province are just as you like to put it "wrong".


 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on October 16, 2013, 08:36:18 PM


you have told me i'm wrong about 5 times now, and you've been out to lunch on them. so much so that I would love to join you. I would even buy.  :)



Be careful what you offer. Steve eats a lot. Could be an expensive lunch.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 16, 2013, 08:52:16 PM
Thank you Mister Banx. I need time for my battle wounds from the farm boys to heal and I utterly lack your ability to express myself in anything near your ability to convey. Being a one finger typing kinda guy, I have to Reader's Digest my posts. I've explained clearly how an active lobstering area for generations ( my family settled there in 1751 ) in my native Nova Scotia no longer produces anything. The only thing that changed was a salmon farm was sited in the area. Obviously a smoking gun, all the response I got was there's "record lobster catches" - but not there. I've spoken at length with friends I've known since youth and they're pretty clear on what wiped out the area. The whole thing was done for a few jobs in a typically high unemployment jurisdiction. Should there be farms? Yes - on land, not in the ocean. I was impressed with David Suzuki's ideas about a feed based with maggots. Easily sustainable and would provide the protein needed without decimating other stocks.

And Steve's long posts don't annoy me. Farmfisherbawb's Pravda links do......... ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on October 16, 2013, 09:53:45 PM

as for pathogens they would have been introduced when farming started.... You said that a salmon can suffer from many pathogens and not suffer from a disease.  So you agreed with me initially, then you tell me it doesn't happen?   so your saying nothing was introduced ever when farming took place?  that the ilnesses atlantic salmon suffer all came from pacific salmon? I will gladly read any info you can point me to regarding  the introduction of atlantics here in the pacific.

Every egg introduced to support the BC farm industry was screened for pathogens at the source hatchery, screened for pathogens on arrival, reared in quarantine and screened again several times prior to being released into farm pens. That is an easy piece of information to access for anyone truly interested in the issue.

On the other hand, starting in 1905 and proceeding through until about 1935, some sixteen million Atlantic salmon were introduced as eggs, fry and smolts to various BC waters (http://msc.khamiahosting.com/sites/default/files/Timeline%20of%20Atlantic%20salmon%20in%20Pacific.pdf (http://msc.khamiahosting.com/sites/default/files/Timeline%20of%20Atlantic%20salmon%20in%20Pacific.pdf)). These were brought in to try and establish a resident wild population to satisfy sports fishermen. As should be immediately apparent from the dates and technologies existing at that time, these salmon were neither screened for pathogens nor quarantined.

Even a halfwit should easily be able to tell which of the situations is the likelier vector should some non-native pathogen be present in our waters.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 17, 2013, 07:11:01 AM
Every egg introduced to support the BC farm industry was screened for pathogens at the source hatchery, screened for pathogens on arrival, reared in quarantine and screened again several times prior to being released into farm pens. That is an easy piece of information to access for anyone truly interested in the issue.

On the other hand, starting in 1905 and proceeding through until about 1935, some sixteen million Atlantic salmon were introduced as eggs, fry and smolts to various BC waters (http://msc.khamiahosting.com/sites/default/files/Timeline%20of%20Atlantic%20salmon%20in%20Pacific.pdf (http://msc.khamiahosting.com/sites/default/files/Timeline%20of%20Atlantic%20salmon%20in%20Pacific.pdf)). These were brought in to try and establish a resident wild population to satisfy sports fishermen. As should be immediately apparent from the dates and technologies existing at that time, these salmon were neither screened for pathogens nor quarantined.

Even a halfwit should easily be able to tell which of the situations is the likelier vector should some non-native pathogen be present in our waters.

excellent, thank you, some times you need to dumb it down for us halfwits..... so if they are screened for pathogens and are deemed healthy, why do they grow up and get sick? husbandry techniques? close proximity to each other?  the pacific ocean is just to virulent of an ocean to support them?

Maybe you can explain it more for me.  how does a disease that was first 'discovered' in the atlantic, infecting atlantic salmon, show up in the pacific and get atlantics sick? All I have read is it 'may or or may not have been present here before'....  how did it get here with all the screening and assurance that they are healthy?  back in the early 1900's when they were put in rivers for sport fishing?

now if it was always here and because the pacific salmon have high resistance to ISAv, it must be our local pacific salmon getting the atlantics sick?  If thats the case, we can't let that happen. thats just bad business.

is the next logical step to elminate the source of the disease and just start culling wild pacifics?
i'm just trying to follow your reasoning.

what you tell me makes no sense. again, i'm just a halfwit.  they are tested, assured, inspected, guaranteed, stamped and stickered.  but they grow up and get sick? I don't know why, or how they would be getting sick with all these measures and fantastic systems you are telling me about. to quote steve is something "wrong?"

also, now maybe this logic might be lost on some of the higher IQ's on these pages.  so, we dumped a bunch of atlantics up and down the coast hoping to catch them.  The salmon don't take to the rivers and begin a natural life cycle.  we were unaware of the future consequences that introducing an alien spcies would do.  so now, 100 years later your paying the consequences?  because that virus managed to stay alive here (if it didnt exist before).  Thats what your telling me.... Then it can be reasoned that IF that virus was present here before the introduction of atlantic salmon and now you have atlantics getting sick, wouldn't you want them taken out of a volatile environment?   

so what types of consequences are we ignoring now by keeping atlantics in open pens in the pacific ocean?  the ocean floor is pretty much void of life under most farms.  and thats in a few short years.... you have currents flowing past these pens moving all sorts of waste products, food, feces, spent meds all over the ocean.

you would think maybe chile and norway would be good examples for us.  But no, our scientists are smarter here, are rules are the strictes in the world and we have the husbandry techniques to make sure we don't ruin the ocean and our wild stocks.  I'm lookin to buy a bridge, anyone have one for sale?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 17, 2013, 02:18:25 PM
If my posts annoy you, simply do not read them NB. :)

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/we-sure-don%E2%80%99t-want-be-canoe-water-brothers
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 17, 2013, 04:45:13 PM

The conclusions that i'm drawing from that link is that antifarm crowd, and this would probably go for a high, I might say 63-68%**  of the population is the same way.... that we are ignoring the facts because we  are stubborn and have our own misinformed view. regardless............... It would be interesting if this site conducted a survey of how many support open pen farming. or has this been done already?

Also, that the farming industry needs communication sites, not related to public relations at all mind you, so that they can raise "positive aquaculture awareness".  That awareness is necessary, because theres a whole lot of misinformed people out there corrupting the general populations mind with all their crazy shennanigans. 

That we are ignoring the plain and simple facts presented in front of us.

But I'm not ignoring.... I'm asking, which I really feel are not ignorant questions. About why you think, or why things have taken place, or why things go wrong.  To ask you questions such as; well what are the long term consequences? your answers are "well no one knows" and I'm supposed to say "great, continue on"  ???

it's interesting.... because the basic information I derive my conclusions from are very simple.  This process is done in an open ocean where you really have no idea what the long term consequences will be... drugs are used, though prescribed, flowing around in currents. Also there are issues with waste control and close proximity. There is of course the future potential of antibiotic resistance. Are these conclusions wrong?

I am pretty sure you would want me in your canoe man.

I am glad the science is sound, I would hope so being that we are canadian, but the confidence put in it to perpetuate this......process, is like I said, optimistic at best.

I hope your right, really. I really really hope you guys are right, that all this is cool.  Just remember guys, beef farmers never anticipated mad cow disease, and they still don't know where it came from. Salmon farming is still in its infancy, and I'm sure terrestrial farmers hundreds of years ago probably had the same confidence you have now.

I had to find it again but I read a 'survey' of sorts a while back. http://www.al.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/cabinet/Competitiveness_Survey.pdf
it's a conundrum.... it might be why I have problems with this open pen thing. 

farmers were asked to rank the 7 priorities regarding research and development as it relates to the 'competitiveness of the BC farming industry' The number one priotity was fish health.  I thought hell ya.... and the lowest priority is 'interaction with wild salmon'.... and that was hard to digest. mostly because this was anonymous survery with those working in the industry.


** I tried some google searches but stopped at page 4 usually. nitwit styles.  :-[
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 17, 2013, 08:02:43 PM
If my posts annoy you, simply do not read them NB. :)

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/we-sure-don%E2%80%99t-want-be-canoe-water-brothers

It's more like sand in my speedo or a skeeter buzzing around me. A tiny pebble in my shoe. A pimple on my , well, you know. But you amuse me more than annoy me because it's always fish farm pravda comrade.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on October 17, 2013, 09:55:22 PM
excellent, thank you, some times you need to dumb it down for us halfwits..... so if they are screened for pathogens and are deemed healthy, why do they grow up and get sick? husbandry techniques? close proximity to each other?  the pacific ocean is just to virulent of an ocean to support them?

I suggested that even a halfwit could understand the risk is greater by introducing large numbers of unscreened fish than by introducing screened and quarantined eggs. I don't know you so have no idea if you are a halfwit or not and therefore must defer to your judgement on that one. I'm sure that given a little thought you could answer your own questions.

Quote
Maybe you can explain it more for me.  how does a , infecting atlantic salmon, show up in the pacific and get atlantics sick? All I have read is it 'may or or may not have been present here before'....  how did it get here with all the screening and assurance that they are healthy?  back in the early 1900's when they were put in rivers for sport fishing?

now if it was always here and because the pacific salmon have high resistance to ISAv, it must be our local pacific salmon getting the atlantics sick?  If thats the case, we can't let that happen. thats just bad business.

When was ISAv found here? I'm assuming that is the "disease that was first 'discovered' in the atlantic" you are referring to, though you aren't clear enough in what you are saying to be sure.


Quote
is the next logical step to elminate the source of the disease and just start culling wild pacifics?
i'm just trying to follow your reasoning.

That's not my reasoning. You arrived at that completely without my help.

Quote
what you tell me makes no sense. again, i'm just a halfwit.  they are tested, assured, inspected, guaranteed, stamped and stickered.  but they grow up and get sick? I don't know why, or how they would be getting sick with all these measures and fantastic systems you are telling me about. to quote steve is something "wrong?"

I'll just refer you back to paragraph one. Screening is done to prevent transmission of pathogens with the eggs. Quarantine is a part of that process. There is no guarantee that the fish will not be infected by an endemic pathogen once it is placed in the pen just as there is no guarantee you won't catch a cold or develop hepatitis even though you had neither when you were born.



Quote
also, now maybe this logic might be lost on some of the higher IQ's on these pages.  so, we dumped a bunch of atlantics up and down the coast hoping to catch them.  The salmon don't take to the rivers and begin a natural life cycle.  we were unaware of the future consequences that introducing an alien spcies would do.  so now, 100 years later your paying the consequences?  because that virus managed to stay alive here (if it didnt exist before).  Thats what your telling me.... Then it can be reasoned that IF that virus was present here before the introduction of atlantic salmon and now you have atlantics getting sick, wouldn't you want them taken out of a volatile environment?

What Atlantics are getting sick and what are they sick with?

Quote
so what types of consequences are we ignoring now by keeping atlantics in open pens in the pacific ocean?  the ocean floor is pretty much void of life under most farms.  and thats in a few short years.... you have currents flowing past these pens moving all sorts of waste products, food, feces, spent meds all over the ocean.

Instead of taking license with your words, apparently quite acceptable for you even if it's not for the farm industry, why don't you regale us with some specifics? How much "void of life" ocean floor is under the pens and how do you know it is void of life? Had a look for yourself? How much "waste products, food, feces, spent meds all over the ocean" are we talking here and specifically what is being put at risk? Can you support your hyperbole with some actual specifics?

Quote
you would think maybe chile and norway would be good examples for us.  But no, our scientists are smarter here, are rules are the strictes in the world and we have the husbandry techniques to make sure we don't ruin the ocean and our wild stocks.  I'm lookin to buy a bridge, anyone have one for sale?

No, you would think that. People more concerned with a rational analysis would compare the similarities and differences between the three environments and take the lessons that were appropriate for our situation, and wouldn't you know it, that's pretty much what happens.

I can appreciate that you have a fairly strong opinion about salmon farming and you're certainly welcome to it. I can also appreciate that, as you've specifically said yourself, you don't know much about the subject. Given those two rather contradictory points in combination with your obvious taste for an argument, I can only surmise that it would be a fairly substantial waste of time to try and address your concerns. Perhaps someone else might be interested.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 18, 2013, 07:13:14 AM
I suggested that even a halfwit could understand the risk is greater by introducing large numbers of unscreened fish than by introducing screened and quarantined eggs. I don't know you so have no idea if you are a halfwit or not and therefore must defer to your judgement on that one. I'm sure that given a little thought you could answer your own questions.

When was ISAv found here? I'm assuming that is the "disease that was first 'discovered' in the atlantic" you are referring to, though you aren't clear enough in what you are saying to be sure.


That's not my reasoning. You arrived at that completely without my help.

I'll just refer you back to paragraph one. Screening is done to prevent transmission of pathogens with the eggs. Quarantine is a part of that process. There is no guarantee that the fish will not be infected by an endemic pathogen once it is placed in the pen just as there is no guarantee you won't catch a cold or develop hepatitis even though you had neither when you were born.



What Atlantics are getting sick and what are they sick with?

Instead of taking license with your words, apparently quite acceptable for you even if it's not for the farm industry, why don't you regale us with some specifics? How much "void of life" ocean floor is under the pens and how do you know it is void of life? Had a look for yourself? How much "waste products, food, feces, spent meds all over the ocean" are we talking here and specifically what is being put at risk? Can you support your hyperbole with some actual specifics?

No, you would think that. People more concerned with a rational analysis would compare the similarities and differences between the three environments and take the lessons that were appropriate for our situation, and wouldn't you know it, that's pretty much what happens.

I can appreciate that you have a fairly strong opinion about salmon farming and you're certainly welcome to it. I can also appreciate that, as you've specifically said yourself, you don't know much about the subject. Given those two rather contradictory points in combination with your obvious taste for an argument, I can only surmise that it would be a fairly substantial waste of time to try and address your concerns. Perhaps someone else might be interested.

absolon, I don't think I'm smart enough to answer my own questions. maybe you and steve are the only ones who are actually able to answer your own questions.

well heres ISAv here

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/virus-present-in-bc-salmon-for-decades-inquiry-told/article4247764/

"Infectious salmon anemia, a virus that has triggered devastating disease outbreaks in stocks of farmed Atlantic salmon around the world, appears to have been in British Columbia wild salmon for at least 25 years, the Cohen commission of inquiry has heard."

Things that get atlantics sick: sea lice, ISAv, kudoa, Infectious Hematopoietic Necrosis, Furunculosis, Bacterial Kidney Disease.

How much food, meds and waste is dumped into the ocean? 
well thats a great question.... and all we really know is

"Despite the low relative usage of antibiotics in aquaculture compared to other food production systems their use remains an issue of concern as aquaculture is often practiced in relatively pristine environments and the exact quantities applied directly to water is not available in some jurisdictions. Available data show that large quantities of antibiotics have been applied in Chile over a generally small geographic area. In Canada the quantity of antibiotics prescribed per metric ton of production is also high compared to Norway or Scotland. Use of large quantities may indicate disease problems related to husbandry or to resistance buildup in fish. It has also been suggested that this use of large volumes of antibiotics can be explained by excessive and prophylactic use"   

CHEMICAL USE IN SALMON AQUACULTURE: A REVIEW OF CURRENT PRACTICES AND POSSIBLE ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS
Les Burridge1, Judith Weis2, Felipe Cabello3 and Jaime Pizarro4

also "Antibiotic treatment in aquaculture is achieved by medicated baths and medicated food. In both cases, the likelihood exists for antibiotics to pass into the environment, affecting wildlife, remaining in the environment for extended periods of time and exerting their antibiotic effects. Concerns regarding the use of large amounts of antibiotics in aquaculture are multiple. They include selection of antibiotic-resistant bacteria in piscine normal flora and pathogens as well as
2
effects due to the persistence of antibiotics and antibiotic residues in sediments and water column. These persistent antibiotics select for antibiotic-resistant free-living bacteria thereby altering the composition of normal marine and freshwater bacterial flora. Evidence suggests that these antibiotic-resistant organisms in the marine environment will, in turn, pass their antibiotic resistance genes to other bacteria including human and animal pathogens. Because of their toxicity to microorganisms, antibiotics may also affect the composition of the phytoplankton community, the zooplankton community and even the diversity of populations of larger animals.

In this manner, potential alterations of the diversity of the marine microbiota produced by antibiotics may alter the homeostasis of the marine environment and affect complex forms of life including fish, shellfish, marine mammals, and human beings. Use of large quantities of antibiotics in aquaculture thus has the potential to be detrimental to fish health, to the environment and wildlife, and to human health. For all these reasons, excessive antibiotic use in aquaculture should be of high concern to the aquaculture industry and its regulators, to public officials dealing with human and veterinary health and with the preservation of the environment, and to non-governmental organizations dealing with these issues."

and thats ok with you?  :o

This table could be referenced I believe.

"The following products are registered for use as antibiotics in Canada:

 Oxytetracycline, trimethoprim80%/sulphadiazine20%, sulfadimethoxine80%/ormetoprim20%, florfenicol. Table 2.3 shows the quantities of antibiotic actually applied in Canada (2003) and British Columbia (BC) from 2004 through 2006. While BC produces the majority of Atlantic salmon grown in Canada, there is a significant salmon aquaculture industry on Canada’s east coast. Table 2.3. Total antibiotic use in Canadaa or for British Columbia onlyb

                    U2003Ua            U2004Ub    U2005Ub     U2006Ub    
Total antibiotics    30,343 Kg*    18,530 Kg    12,103 Kg     7,956 Kg    


and what atlantics are getting sick? well thats the easiest question you've asked.
http://forargyll.com/2013/10/norway-orders-killing-of-2-million-farm-salmon-with-sea-lice-to-protect-wild-salmon/

that was oct 10th. last week.  and I am pretty sure I don't have to link every mass killing because someone here has already posted it. And since you know everything there is to know about aquaculture I am sure your aware of the 'cullings' in chile, our east coast and our coast. Because the fish got sick.


our coast....... “The fish were 400 grams and there were about 400 tonnes. Financial losses are expected to be in the millions,” said Mainstream spokeswoman Laurie Jensen.

Grieg has destroyed about 316,000 fish, said Grieg managing director Stewart Hawthorn. Financial losses have not yet been evaluated." http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Virus+confirmed+salmon+farms+cull+fish/7074308/story.html

you can also google image search 'ocean floor under salmon farms'  pretty great scenery. and no I haven't put on scuba gear and swam under a farm. I'm only basing my judgement on other peoples personal views and photos.  People that generally have nothing to gain.  Maybe a farmer has a gopro camera and can take some nice pics for us.

some fellow named Absolon said "there is no guarantee that the fish will not be infected by an endemic pathogen once it is placed in the pen"  regardless of the measures in place.  Also and this is my point, which you and uncle stevey fail to recognize. Is that with all the bells and whistles you don't know why fish get sick. 

so don't put them in a pen in the OCEAN to raise them, sell em as food and tell me they are delicious.
you guys are trying to make a case to support rape basically.  cause thats my whole view on this. That regardless of everything your telling me that is used to 'control' the process, it isn't working.



Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 19, 2013, 12:33:57 AM
"I asked you who these “hired companies” are and have not received an answer"

Get a life, you know a sure as slice that one group is EWOS types who produce the feed for them dirty fish. Man talk about tossing red herring around. Fibfarmerbob quote right from the other ones.

They make fish food.  Using your logic (and banx's flawed logic) Save-On-Foods is a hired company which is a paid lobby group for the beef industry.  Thanks for the comedy.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 19, 2013, 01:22:04 AM
steve. I just gave you a site that was a total public relations company. and quoted them.... those are all public relation fronts.
"working to protect wild salmon"  which is hilarious. 

of course i'm going to use and manipulate the language to get my point across. its called articulation. having a vocabulary.  You do it with your eloquent posts that probably keep 98% of the people from saying anything because they don't want to be made foolish.

steve.... I'm not knocking the science. I've told you that.  It is tough to digest when it's paid for by a special interest.  regardless of which side of the fence they sit on.  like the irony of "truth in advertising"  and I will repeat I'm not a morton fan or supporter, I don't know why you keep talking about her when you reply to me. 

as for pathogens they would have been introduced when farming started.... You said that a salmon can suffer from many pathogens and not suffer from a disease.  So you agreed with me initially, then you tell me it doesn't happen?   so your saying nothing was introduced ever when farming took place?  that the ilnesses atlantic salmon suffer all came from pacific salmon? I will gladly read any info you can point me to regarding  the introduction of atlantics here in the pacific. Especially if it's related to early diseases and viruses.

is that why there are such stringent regulations in place? "some of the strictest in the world" as you said.

steve they use drugs, these drugs flow into the open oceans which you have no idea what they do to other animals. what more needs to be clarified? its drugs in the ocean.  thats the bottom line. you can quote husbandry techniques and say its vet prescribed.  but guess what, its the open ocean. is that not correct?  tell me that open net pens are not in the ocean. please tell me.

your paragrpah beginning with "third" makes my point for me, yet again.... thanks. This may be just a wild assumption, as i'm no scientist or fish farmer.  But my understanding is that when animals, fish in this case are in close proximity to each other they get sick at a much higher rate than they would in the wild or if they had more 'space'.   is that wrong also?

so the spin regarding sea lice was true.  yet you expect to have complete confidence in the farms public relations department now.  one great mind named shuswapsteve once told me something brilliant "fool me once shame on me fool me twice......."

steve, if the fish are getting sick and the food they eat has medicine in it, they are doing something wrong.  if my daughter is getting sick because of the environment I put her in. Its my fault and it means i'm doing something wrong.

you have told me i'm wrong about 5 times now, and you've been out to lunch on them. so much so that I would love to join you. I would even buy.  :)

I also agree that there are many other things that are effecting wild salmon stocks.  some we can control and some we can't.  Open pen farming is one we can.  so expect people, the misinformed, the radical, the hippie, the ones with too much time on their hands, the special interest groups, and the regular ol tax payer to question the practices and voice their concerns.

who wants fish crammed together in a pen in one of the most beautiful parts of the world defecating up a storm?   apparantly you and the farmers.

I have never in my life met anyone in person who supports open pen farming. not a soul. and i'm sure the people that have, can count their supporters on one hand.

I guess most citizens of this beautiful province are just as you like to put it "wrong".

You are one very confused person right now.  I never said that pathogens cannot lead to disease.  As for me “saying that nothing was introduced ever when farming took place here” I provided you a very detailed response.  I am not going to waste my time saying it again.  Secondly, what pathogens are you talking about it?  What has been introduced?  Absolon is also trying to get an answer from you on this, but like a good “public relations company” you are doing your best to avoid questions.  If you are talking about IHNv it is an endemic virus that has been around our waters long before fish farming.  There is a very long thread on this site already regarding IHN so go search for that if you want more details.  Pacific Salmon adults are largely immune IHN, but can carry the virus – IHNv.  They then can pass this virus onto Atlantic Salmon which have no resistance to IHN.  If you are talking about ISAv please state where it has been found here.  If Atlantic Salmon and Pacific Salmon here are getting sick from ISA please where.


Quote
your paragrpah beginning with "third" makes my point for me, yet again.... thanks. This may be just a wild assumption, as i'm no scientist or fish farmer.  But my understanding is that when animals, fish in this case are in close proximity to each other they get sick at a much higher rate than they would in the wild or if they had more 'space'.   is that wrong also?

Made your point…lol?  You sure like to pat yourself on the back for not understanding the topic.  Obviously you forgot the high survival rate of Atlantic Salmon on BC fish farms.  If you are talking about IHN outbreaks on BC fish farms do you know the frequency of occurrences?  The fact is that outbreaks are not very frequent (the last major one was 2003 I believe).  You are also forgetting that farmed fish here are vaccinated (not medication) which contributes to a high survival rate.  I never said that farmed fish will never get sick, but the industry here keeps that mortality rate very low and it is not all because of drugs.  Antibiotics are not used in high quantities.  If you are fearful of drugs in the ocean then you should be more concerned about what is being treated by municipal wastewater systems.  Where are all these sick Atlantics that are constantly getting sick on BC fish farms to the point where it is a chronic problem?  Again, visit a fish farm or a fish hatchery and get informed.
 
Quote
Maybe you can explain it more for me.  how does a disease that was first 'discovered' in the atlantic, infecting atlantic salmon, show up in the pacific and get atlantics sick? All I have read is it 'may or or may not have been present here before'....  how did it get here with all the screening and assurance that they are healthy?  back in the early 1900's when they were put in rivers for sport fishing?
now if it was always here and because the pacific salmon have high resistance to ISAv, it must be our local pacific salmon getting the atlantics sick?  If thats the case, we can't let that happen. thats just bad business.

Explain it to you more…lol?  How did it get here with all the screening, you ask?  Maybe read the Cohen Final Report for starters.  Apparently you have been reading the technical reports so I should not have to prompt you.  Maybe read what Dr. Miller says about her findings about the ISAv-like sequences she found; whether it is known or not to cause disease.  Maybe read what Justice Cohen concluded about the presence of ISAv and ISA in our waters?  Did you notice the date of the G&M article and when the Cohen Report was released?  I provided you a page from the report to start from unless Cohen is a “public relations company” that can’t be trusted….lol.  Of course I already told you that if ISA were on BC fish farms what the result could be.

Quote
Things that get atlantics sick: sea lice, ISAv, kudoa, Infectious Hematopoietic Necrosis, Furunculosis, Bacterial Kidney Disease.

Do you know what Kudoa is?  Obviously not or you would not have made such a grand conclusion; however, you likely already patted yourself on the back for that one.  The fact is that it does not get Atlantics sick.  Instead it impacts the quality of the flesh by softening it.  It is usually not noticed until the fish is sold.  Kudoa is also found in wild fish on our coast and other coastal areas.  I can tell you about some other endemic parasites that wild Pacific Salmon have that will twist your stomach.

Quote
some fellow named Absolon said "there is no guarantee that the fish will not be infected by an endemic pathogen once it is placed in the pen"  regardless of the measures in place.  Also and this is my point, which you and uncle stevey fail to recognize. Is that with all the bells and whistles you don't know why fish get sick.

We don't know why Atlantic Salmon that get sick with IHN??  I just told you.  In fact there is huge thread on this already on this site.  You are indeed a very confused person.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 19, 2013, 08:22:54 AM
They make fish food.  Using your logic (and banx's flawed logic) Save-On-Foods is a hired company which is a paid lobby group for the beef industry.  Thanks for the comedy.

Blinders on Shteve. Fish pharmaceutical companies and so called fish farm vets who proscribe tasty things like slice are big players in pushing the dirty fish onto the plate. Thanks for the blind comic reply but take them off once in a while. it's always darkest under the netpen. ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 19, 2013, 08:28:10 AM
I included kudoa as it was asked "what gets atlantics sick" so I listed them off.... was it wrong to include it? it appears it does.  I am well aware of some of the things that effect our native pacific salmon and have actually emailed several pictures to DFO over the years. particularly the incredible increase in the amount of 'zitted' coho I have been catching.

confused, no, concerned yes.

I will begin reading the other parts of the cohen report and see what kind of ignorant questions I can muster for you.  I know that after I finish reading the rest of the recommendations your fingers will be getting a stretch on the ol keyboard.  ;D

http://deptwildsalmon.org/results/wild/ public reations for the antifarm crowd, but it shows dr.millers discoveries

and you guys: ""Farm-raised Atlantic salmon, unlike their Pacific cousins, are susceptible to ISA, so this is a concern for our operations, but much less likely to be an issue for the different Pacific species," said Stewart Hawthorn, Managing Director for Grieg Seafood. "If these results are valid, this could be a threat to our business and the communities that rely on our productive industry."

The results were reportedly found in juvenile Sockeye smolts in Rivers Inlet - an area north of most salmon farms. These fish would not have passed aquaculture operations, but our farmers remain concerned about what this means, and how the disease, which is not native to British Columbia, may have been introduced.

http://www.salmonfarmers.org/suspect-findings-isa-concern-bcs-salmon-farmers

so you guys don't know where it came from, and its carried by pacific salmon... thats the information I'm reading.


and Dr.Miller: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/virus-present-in-bc-salmon-for-decades-inquiry-told/article4247764/

Infectious salmon anemia, a virus that has triggered devastating disease outbreaks in stocks of farmed Atlantic salmon around the world, appears to have been in British Columbia wild salmon for at least 25 years, the Cohen commission of inquiry has heard.

The ISA virus – or a new variation of it – has been found repeatedly in samples of wild sockeye and pink salmon, as well as in samples of farmed chinook taken from one West Coast aquaculture operati

No lethal virus in Pacific salmon, CFIA says
That revelatory evidence was given on Thursday, by Kristi Miller, head of molecular genetics at the federal Pacific Biological Station in Nanaimo.

“I clearly believe that there is a virus here that is very similar to the ISA virus in Europe … [but]we have not established that it causes disease,” said Dr. Miller.

She was one of four experts on ISA called to testify about a recent series of conflicting test results that have raised questions about whether the virus is present on the West Coast or not.

In October, sockeye salmon collected by Simon Fraser University researchers were tested at an East Coast lab and several samples were found positive for ISA. But follow-up testing by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency failed to replicate the results. As other labs got into the picture, some got positive results, while others didn’t.

Intrigued by the SFU discovery, Dr. Miller said she launched her own research effort and has concluded that the ISA virus, or something much like it, is present in both wild and farmed salmon in B.C.

Fred Kibenge, chair of the department of pathology and microbiology at the University of Prince Edward Island, which did the SFU testing, agreed with Dr. Miller’s assessment.

“In my view … I think there’s evidence there are ISAV sequences in fish samples from B.C.,” Dr. Kibenge said. “I think the result is credible. Now, whether it’s ISA or ISA-virus-like, that requires some work.”

Dr. Miller said her tests found a virus that is 95-per-cent similar to the European strain of ISA, which has infected farmed Atlantic salmon in Norway, Scotland, Atlantic Canada and Chile.

She said when her tests detected ISA in fish collected this year, she went back into the laboratory’s storage lockers and pulled out samples of fish from as far back as 1986 – and found ISA there too, showing the virus has been present at least 25 years.

Dr. Miller said the ISA virus has now been confirmed in numerous wild fish, and in chinook samples provided by Creative Salmon, a fish farm on Vancouver Island.

Dr. Miller said Creative was the only fish farm that co-operated with her research efforts, and she had not been able to get samples from other farms in B.C.

“They did not want their samples to be tested,” she said of the farms, which mostly raise Atlantic salmon.

The ISA disease can be lethal to Atlantic salmon, but lab tests suggest it does not kill Pacific salmon.

However, a report by Brad Davis, a postdoctoral fellow working with Dr. Miller, indicates that fish with the virus react in a way that “suggests that the virus is causing enough damage to elicit a strong response in the salmon. … Therefore, we cannot at this point assume that this virus does not cause disease in these fish.”


The panel members all agreed that the conflicting results between labs could be the result of different techniques.

Ms. Gagné said the ISA virus was first detected on the East Coast in 1990, and research showed it was a different strain from the European virus.

“It could be we are really looking at another [third kind of]ISA,” she said.

My confused mind tells me that if the environment your putting farmed salmon in, i.e crazy wild salmon carrying ISA swimming near by, that you would want to remove them from the environment. does that make sense?  or is that confusing.

Steve you said  "Antibiotics are not used in high quantities."  That may be true, and this could all be relative.  But when your measuring production in tonnes and the unit of measurement describing 'antibiotics' is in kilograms. it seems very high....  65,000+kgs from 2002 to 2006. dumped into our BC waters. thats a lot of drugs.

and your proud of the fact that you havent had a mass culling in a few years now. awesome. thats like fox news saying america is doing something right because they haven't had a school shooting in a year.

this is what you guys sound like now.

(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o4/banx14/smoking_01.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/banx14/media/smoking_01.jpg.html)

and this is where I think you guys will be in a few more years.... hopefully.

(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o4/banx14/antismoke.png) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/banx14/media/antismoke.png.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on October 19, 2013, 01:04:49 PM


and your proud of the fact that you havent had a mass culling in a few years now. awesome. thats like fox news saying america is doing something right because they haven't had a school shooting in a year.

this is what you guys sound like now.

(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o4/banx14/smoking_01.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/banx14/media/smoking_01.jpg.html)

and this is where I think you guys will be in a few more years.... hopefully.

(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o4/banx14/antismoke.png) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/banx14/media/antismoke.png.html)

Hehehe, good stuff, I like this guy  :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 23, 2013, 10:54:28 PM
I included kudoa as it was asked "what gets atlantics sick" so I listed them off.... was it wrong to include it? it appears it does.  I am well aware of some of the things that effect our native pacific salmon and have actually emailed several pictures to DFO over the years. particularly the incredible increase in the amount of 'zitted' coho I have been catching.

Hmmm....so you decided to list them off without being sure what they all were.  Then you go on to reassure me that you know what you are talking about.  Sounds a little like what Morton tries to do.  Are you sure you don't operate your own "public relations" site?  Interestingly, I see that the picture you have in your last post says, "Know Your Facts".  You may want to take that advice.

Quote
I will begin reading the other parts of the cohen report and see what kind of ignorant questions I can muster for you.  I know that after I finish reading the rest of the recommendations your fingers will be getting a stretch on the ol keyboard.

I already brought up Dr. Miller's retroactive work already in this thread, so what you found is not new news.  However, I am glad you took more of an interest in looking at some of the findings.  One thing that you have to remember is that Cohen had more than just a few experts provide testimony on ISA.  For instance, Dr. Nylund (a leading authority on ISA) also provided testimony also.  The report brings in the opinions of all these experts with Cohen tasked with the job of weighing the evidence from all sides.  You say, "You guys don't know where it came from".....well actually no one really knows were these ISA-like sequences came from.  That is why Dr. Miller adds that more work on it needs to be done.  What is known is that if ISA was here we would see it on the fish farms as ISA is lethal to Atlantic Salmon.  What we do know is that Pacific Salmon have been found to be largely immune to ISA.  To date, ISAv or ISA has not be found on BC fish farms.  This evidence was provided to the commission.

As for Dr. Miller's discovery of the ISA virus in Chinook samples provided by Creative Salmon there is more to that story than what you have portrayed.  First, the Dr. Miller's study of the ISA virus in those fish also found that the prevalence of that virus was the same in healthy fish as it was in sick fish.  Second, the results from that study were linked to a data from a licenced veterinarian sampled the fish and a board certified veterinary pathologist that examine sections of organs under a microscope.  This way it was obvious to see that the sick fish were sick and the healthy fish were healthy.  This suggests that whatever Dr. Miller was finding was not the cause of disease in those Chinook Salmon.

As for the report by Brad Davis, it should be noted that this conclusion was based ignoring or changing data, according to Dr. Gary Marty (Provincial Fish Health Veterinarian).

https://www.professionalbiology.com/sites/default/files/bionews/BioNews22-1-electronic.pdf

(Note: Not from those dreaded “public relation” sites operated by the BC fish farm industry or anti-fish farm activists)

Quote
My confused mind tells me that if the environment your putting farmed salmon in, i.e crazy wild salmon carrying ISA swimming near by, that you would want to remove them from the environment. does that make sense?  or is that confusing.

Well, your confused mind should realize that morts on fish farms are tested for exotic and endemic diseases.  The province operated a surveillance program, prior to feds taking over, that tested over 4,700 farmed salmon in BC.  These results were reported annually by the province when they were in charge of this.  Recently dead fish are targeted for disease sampling because it increases the likelihood of finding disease instead of randomly sampling live fish where most would be healthy.  Samples are collected for bacteriology, histopathology and molecular diagnostics/virology.  To date, there has been no confirmed case of ISA on BC fish farms.  So, when you say that we don't know why these fish get sick that is actually false.

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/

(Note: Not taken from those dreaded "public relations" sites you don't like)

Quote
Steve you said  "Antibiotics are not used in high quantities."  That may be true, and this could all be relative.  But when your measuring production in tonnes and the unit of measurement describing 'antibiotics' is in kilograms. it seems very high....  65,000+kgs from 2002 to 2006. dumped into our BC waters. thats a lot of drugs.

Are assuming that the "drugs" being used have not been studied and tested for use in Canada?  I am interested in hearing the impact you are seeing here instead of "I think this is going to happen".

Quote
and your proud of the fact that you havent had a mass culling in a few years now. awesome. thats like fox news saying america is doing something right because they haven't had a school shooting in a year.

Not a question of being "proud".  Just stating a fact that you overlooked while you were implying that sickness on BC salmon farms was a big problem.

Quote
steve, if the fish are getting sick and the food they eat has medicine in it, they are doing something wrong.  if my daughter is getting sick because of the environment I put her in. Its my fault and it means i'm doing something wrong.

Seeing as though you agree that there are similarities with land based agriculture (i.e. beef) you should realize that farmers and ranchers, who use the "environment" also, do not just sit around and watch what their crops or cattle suffer without taking any action to remedy the situation.  Those remedies can be chemical treatments, procedural changes (i.e. not raising chickens in close proximity to pigs) or actions which may negatively impact surrounding fish and wildlife.  I am pretty sure that you are a consumer of those products.  Are you doing something wrong or are they doing something wrong?  Has your daughter ever been immunized or taken medication for an illness like a cold or the flu?  Is the doctor doing something wrong by providing a medicine prescription or should you just pull your daughter out of public school because that could be a likely source of future sickness.  Does she go back to school if it is possible that others there can be sick (now or sometime in the future) or do you just provide home schooling for the rest of her life?.

Quote
this is what you guys sound like now.

I agree with nibbles that is kind of humorous, but as I indicated earlier you might want to brush up on the facts that are out there now instead of manufacturing them (sort of like what Morton does).
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 23, 2013, 11:02:19 PM
Blinders on Shteve. Fish pharmaceutical companies and so called fish farm vets who proscribe tasty things like slice are big players in pushing the dirty fish onto the plate. Thanks for the blind comic reply but take them off once in a while. it's always darkest under the netpen. ;D

People such as yourself are small players in the realm of factual information, but mighty large in the arena of delusion.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 24, 2013, 06:31:59 AM
People such as yourself are small players in the realm of factual information, but mighty large in the arena of delusion.


Fur sumwon wuth a grate beeg edukashun ids reel nyce thet a gooroo lyke ewe kin com downn fromm thet ther mountin to hep us liddle peeple innerstand bedder. Weer ill jest ignernt rednex wuth know ideer wat weere tawkin' aboot. Id's gud too no ewe er th unly won thet nos all th facs end ar the beeall an enzall fer infoo un th fush ferms. Effter ell, yur a BEEG playyer en I figger id's nyce thet ewe kin hobb nobb wuth us liddle fooks. Ded eye menshun weere ell jest ignernt rednex?

Thenk Ewe Steeve! Ell Hale Steeve!

Speaking of delusional..... ::)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 24, 2013, 08:08:25 AM
steve, I wasn't going to reply until I finished reading the cohen report... I still have 2/3rds or so to go...

like I said about kudoa, you asked what gets them sick. so i listed it. I read what it is, and in fact it effects atlantic salmon all over this planet. 

That being said. My daughter gets sick she stays home. an extra day too.... so she doesn't go to school and get other kids sick....  Up north the classes are smaller so they aren't packed in like atlantic salmon in a net pen.  ;)

My daughter will not get a flu shot.  She doesn't get meds for a cold either, becuase meds don't kill the cold virus, they just mask the symptoms.  so it's tea and honey and a movie on the couch.
when she was a baby she got immunized.  Will probably get the 'mandatory' shots in grade 9 when she gets there.

I am a consumer of beef and chicken (also moose and pacific salmon).  However, its antibiotic free and grass fed.  I grew up up north and my parents being immigrants would buy half cows and shoot moose.  They also traded wine for fish.  I rarely eat fast food... and I rarely eat pork. bacons pretty hard to ignore though.
I put my wallet where my mouth is man.  Cows aren't supposed to eat corn and fish aren't supposed to eat pellets.

I also haven't manufactured any facts....... and If ISA was not found on any farms, why would Dr.Miller say she wasn't able to attain any samples?  were some provided after the report was commissioned? 

and Steve, who the bleep cares if the 'drugs' were tested and safe to use in canada.  We have problems already from domestic water treatment plants and people dumping their own prescriptions down the toilet.

65,000+ kgs of drugs in 4 years dumped into the water.  the 'average'  dump truck holds 13 tons. and 72 tons or so was dumped into the ocean.... so nearly 6 full dump truck loads.

in 4 years.....  and your telling me I shouldn't be worried about what-ifs. 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 24, 2013, 08:12:08 AM
People such as yourself are small players in the realm of factual information, but mighty large in the arena of delusion.

Well to amuse my small brain I decided to see who the big brain people who give us the low down from one of Fibfarmerbobs sources.
-------------------------------------------------------
Positive Aquaculture Awareness Executive

President: Cory Percevault

Vice President: Leanne Brunt

Secretary/Treasurer: Blair Billard

Education: Kevin Onclin, Tom Skillman
--------------------------------------------------------

http://www.salespider.com/b-127377576/noboco-styro-containers-ltd

--------------------------------------------------------


So one of the exclusive members of the Aquaculture Delusional Executive works for a company that sells those enviromentally friendly styrofoam containers to the dirty fish group. Guess which one Shteve? I could go on providing links to the fish pharmacutical compamies but why bother. Your already living in a certain reality and would not appreciate the effort. Bon apetit eating them dirty fish off a styrofoam plate. ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 24, 2013, 10:16:24 AM
Interesting article on page 102. :)

 http://www.businessworld-magazine.com/digital_magazine/2013/oct/files/mobile/index.html#1
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 24, 2013, 10:40:31 AM
Interesting article on page 102. :)

 http://www.businessworld-magazine.com/digital_magazine/2013/oct/files/mobile/index.html#1
Doesn't work for me ..
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 24, 2013, 11:18:20 AM
Doesn't work for me ..

Me neither, but then it's probably just as well.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on October 24, 2013, 11:21:36 AM
Weird format.  Basically didn't work for me either.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 24, 2013, 05:06:19 PM
Darn. >:( I was so looking forward to another of Farmfisherbawb's  always (dis)interesting and (un)informative links. They're always like a ray of sunshine on a rainy day, a warm jacket on a cold windy day. The cream in my coffee. The topping on my sundae. ;) :o ::)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Sandman on October 24, 2013, 05:11:44 PM
Worked fine on my iPhone
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 25, 2013, 10:02:12 AM
Doesn't work for me ..

This one might work. Page changing arrows are at the top of the page.

http://www.businessworld-magazine.com/digital_magazine/2013/oct/files/assets/basic-html/index.html#1
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 25, 2013, 10:09:26 AM
No fish farming in Alaska???? Too funny. Scroll down for 2 more good write ups :)

  http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 25, 2013, 12:21:17 PM
that was interesting.

This was my favourite part though...  page 115

"the industry to grow into an eco-
nomically and socially vibrant part of the
British Columbia landscape, all culminat-
ing with BC farmed salmon internation-
ally recognized as a naturally healthy and
environmentally responsible product that
adheres to global standards for quality
and sustainability. That recognition has
been largely supported through the ef-
forts of BCSFA and what Walling affirms
as “Communications, communications,
communications!”

BCSFA Executive Director Mary Ellen Walling

communications communications communications.... straight from the horses mouth.  insert public relations, public relation, public relations.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 25, 2013, 09:54:34 PM
yeah - Some "business" authority ya link to there Farmfisherbawb. Would you like some background info on how the creeps at one of the business's that they're shilling in that rag went after a single mom trying to make a living and damn near broke her with a slap suit? I know this business like the back of my hand - I've been in it for over 30 years./ There's some many lies flying off that page, it looks like a Senate meeting.They claimed patent infringement until court time. Then they dropped the suit against my friend. That particular article is so full of outright BS, it smells like a dead white spring. More rubbish - but I've come to expect nothing less. ::)

At the very least Son, try a credible source.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 29, 2013, 09:18:50 AM
this made me smile this morning

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftidescanada.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2Fsalmon%2Fworkshop-may-2012%2FD1-1_Progress_Update_on_Two_Atlantic_Salmon_Grow-out_trials_in_Freshwater_Closed_Containment_Systems.pdf&ei=X91vUtGcA-f7igKps4GwDg&usg=AFQjCNHXF_xUleyIB7Lk2YLAONQM_p4goQ&bvm=bv.55123115,d.cGE

kind of like to see it go this way.  don't need smoke and mirrors, or "communications sites" on both sides of the fence..... pages 13 and 14 specifically.

I'm almost done the cohen commission report as well.  Glad to see our government as well as the farms acting on the recommendations so quickly.  I mean in a year they have accomplished...... zero.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 29, 2013, 09:27:23 AM
I'm almost done the cohen commission report as well.  Glad to see our government as well as the farms acting on the recommendations so quickly.  I mean in a year they have accomplished...... zero.
Not so.  Since Cohen there has been a moratorium on new salmon farms, and a huge sampling program of wild and farmed fish has been initiated.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 30, 2013, 03:45:03 PM
Not so.  Since Cohen there has been a moratorium on new salmon farms, and a huge sampling program of wild and farmed fish has been initiated.

And little else?

http://www.cknw.com/2013/10/30/environmental-groups-says-follow-through-lacking-on-sa/


It was supposed to be a blueprint for mapping out the protection of dwindling Fraser River salmon stocks, but a year after the 26-million dollar Cohen report was released, stakeholders are not convinced that mandate is being met.

Craig Orr with the Watershed Watch Salmon Society says 14 deadlines included in the 75 recommendations have now lapsed.

He says, “That’s really not cutting it, for most people right now, because there are specific recommendations; they need a specific implementation plan, a specific time-line for implementing the recommendations, and if they committed to that, I think that would be a great outcome. If you’ve got that, please call me right away.”

Two key issues remain, ongoing threats presented by farmed salmon and the need to protect habitats.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 30, 2013, 08:08:14 PM
And little else?
These two responses to recommendations were the easiest and cheapest.  Salmon farming had no plans to expand in the area so expediting that recommendation was a no brainer.  The second, a comprehensive disease screening process was going to happen anyway as the science, techniques and protocols have been evolving for a while now but perhaps was pushed a bit by this 26M (you pick the word).
The hard ones to implement, the things that really impact Pacific salmon ... over fishing, climate change resulting in warmer water and changing hydrograghs , ocean acidification, habitat loss, pollution,  blah, blah, will get lip service only because basically there are not enough people in this world with the mindset to repair the mess we have created.
As a stop gap to this gloom ;) ;) think of what that 26M could have done for wild salmonid habitat on a few west coast watersheds...

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 30, 2013, 11:46:45 PM
I also haven't manufactured any facts....... and If ISA was not found on any farms, why would Dr.Miller say she wasn't able to attain any samples?  were some provided after the report was commissioned?

Kudoa making Atlantic Salmon sick isn't manufacturing facts?  Information on Kudoa is not hard to find.  Google it.  You don’t have to go to a “public relations site” to find out about it.  It does not get fish sick.  The parasite causes post-mortem softening of the flesh.  ISA is apparently present here, but isn't that a manufactured fact if you have provided no evidence of its presence?  Read Volume 2 and it will tell you what the experts said and didn’t say about ISA.

I am not saying that you should not be concerned, but you should be knowledgeable about salmon farming if you are going to make the claims you are making.  Many of the critics of the BC fish farm industry on this forum make a lot of noise about fish farming, but have a very limited understanding of what is involved.  In my opinion, if someone is going to be against something like this then they should take the time to know something about it and not rely on false perceptions.  Afterwards, they do not have to agree with it, but at least they are informed.

As for Dr. Miller not being able to attain any samples there is more to that story than what farm critics will say (that is usually the case).  Here is what the BC Salmon Farmers Association had to say:

http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/sample_availability.pdf

Again, you should be aware that farmed salmon here have been more regularly tested than wild salmon for exotic viruses like ISAv.  Again, if ISA was on BC fish farms then there would be substantial mortality – similar to what critics say happened in Chile.  Again, if ISAv is detected, salmon farms in Canada are legally obligated to report it – just like it has been on the east coast of Canada.  The problem is that most of the research on salmonid diseases has been directed towards pathogens that have impacted captive fish either in government fish hatcheries or salmon farms.  As I eluded to before, Genome BC is going to be partnering with DFO (includes Dr. Miller) and the Pacific Salmon Foundation in a comprehensive study to collect the largest number of samples from wild and ocean-raised salmon in order to analyze the genomes of microbes as well as their presence and absence.  In July this year, BC Salmon Farmers signed a transfer agreement to assist in this study.  This is in stark contrast to the crude and unscientific virus surveillance program conducted by Ms. Morton.

http://www.genomebc.ca/index.php?cID=1235
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/bc-salmon-farmers-sign-transfer-agreement-genome-bc-study
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 31, 2013, 07:04:47 AM
steve you are completely right. I was very wrong on the kudoa.  I should have only included issues that farmed atlantics have while they are still alive.  The fact that kuduo makes the meat inedible should have been excluded.  :-[   I did read up on it before I posted it.  and it 'was' an issue.

my apologies.

its nice to know though that was the only manufactured fact.  The push you gave me to become informed has not only cemented my feelings regarding pens.  It's opened my eyes to the disgusting practice even further.

The past denials through communication sites regarding sea lice.  The actual TONNAGE of drugs dropped into our ocean as well as a complete ignorance towards the future and the potential consequences of open net farming.  The lack of farms to move on recommendations and the amount of effort put forth to 'educate' the public.... and the visual impact of having a farm sitting in one of the most beautiful parts of the world. 

What truly boggles my mind, is that someone who appears to be as intelligent as you can support such a....... crime.

if you really were as informed as you claim to be, you would know that the "need for more protein for the human population" is a farce.  That a redistribution of wealth, rather, a reduction in how much food we waste would be better for the human population than putting more of these pens in pristine oceans.

The incredible amount of fish meal used to feed farmed salmon is one that needs to be eliminated completely for this to be truly sustainable...

That the incredible effort put forth, the "strictest regulations in the world" and the majority of the public opposing the practice is not enough of a deterrant to take these pens out of the ocean.

your doing your best to justify rape. and expect the vast vast majority of the population to feel the same way.  and their negative feelings towards the practice will ONLY increase as they become more informed.



edit: I did read volume 2. Isa is found in pacific salmon.  and if ISA gets atlantics sick, errrr actually it kills them.  wouldn't you want to remove your investment from that environment?  thats what a smart person would do.  :-\

why are whitsle blowers condemned?

www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/fishing/docs/ISA_Fact_Sheet.pdf‎
At the end of October, a report emerged showing that infectious salmon anemia (ISA) had been discovered in a sample of wild salmon taken from Rivers Inlet. Since that time, the Cohen Commission, which is studying the decline of wild salmon, has reconvened. Also, a secondary analysis that reversed the first ISA findings, called the sample degraded. A few days later, several news outlets reported that Canada covered up studies going back to 2002 that found 117 wild salmon had the the ISA virus.
 http://bcrainforest.com/salmon-flu-variant-found-to-have-existed-in-pacific-salmon/

In the fall of 2011, ISAv was identified in several species of Pacific salmon in British Columbia.
http://deptwildsalmon.org/pathogens/isa/

Dr. Kibenge’s testimony states when he tested 48 salmon from the west coast he found two fish who, in the test had the virus, however, newer developments quote him as saying perhaps there is a western form of ISA.
http://tumblerridgenews.com/?p=10908

"Asymptomatic infectious salmon anaemia in juvenile Onchorhynchus species from the North West Pacific Ocean," says:

    Juvenile chinook (Onchorhynchus tshawytscha), chum (O. meta), coho (O. kisutch), pink (O. gorbuscha) and sockeye salmon (O. nerka) from the West Coast of Vancouver Island, Southeast Alaska, and the Bering Sea were surveyed between August 2002 and April 2003 for infectious salmon anemia virus (ISAV).

    Spawning sockeye from the Cultus Lake and Kokanee from Lois Lake, BC population was also sampled. Pooled or individual tissues were tested by RT-PCR, nucleotide sequencing and virus isolation. ISAV segment 8 was amplified from 34 of 121 (28%) chinook and 15 of 88 (17%) pink salmon caught off the West Coast Vancouver Island and southeast Alaska. ISAV segment 8 was also amplified from all 64 spawning sockeye and one cultured Asiatic salmon.

    The 220bp RT-PCR products were 94% to 98% homologous with Canadian ISAV isolates and 92% to 93% with European ISAV isolates. A product of 377 bp was obtained with Segment 7 ORF1 products were obtained in 5 chinook fish and the nucleotide sequence corresponded to ISAV segment 7 ORF2 products and was 95.7% identical to NBISA01 control isolate (Canadian isolate) and 99.7% identity to an ISAV isolate 810/9/99 from Norway.

    ISAV segments 2, 6 and full opening frame for segment 8 were not amplified nor was ISAV isolated onto SHK or CHSE and ASK-2 cells. These results lead us to conclude that an asymptomatic form of ISA occurs among some specifies of wild Pacific salmon in the north Pacific.
http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Environment/2011/11/30/infectious_salmon_anemia/

and our government says it isn't here....http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/fact-sheet/eng/1327198930863/1327199219511

"Has ISA been found in Canada?

Yes. ISA was first detected in the Atlantic area in 1996. It has been reported in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland.

ISA has not been found in the Pacific Ocean watershed or the Pacific Ocean off British Columbia."

Theres also several other sites I read from oregon and washington that says it doesn't exist.
hard to swallow when the ones with nothing to lose are the ones accused of lying.

"..........the Cohen Commission has exposed a systemic history of closeted secretiveness, hidden motives and contrived deception, all exposed since the initial October revelation that ISAv has been found in wild BC salmon. Dr. Sally Goldes, a 17-year fish health section head for the BC Environment Ministry, testified during the reconvened Cohen inquiry that “current Canada Fish Health Protection Rules do not provide a high level of regulatory security against the introduction of ISAv into British Columbia.” To underscore her concern, she noted, “If you really look closely at the regulations, from a scientific basis, there is not the high degree of protection that the government, and particularly DFO, states that they have.” In her opinion, the DFO and CFIA press conference that announced no ISAv in BC “was entirely premature.” In other words, ISAv could have leaked into BC waters from Atlantic egg sources used by salmon farms, and government agencies are systematically hiding that possibility.

Dr. Kristi Miller, one of the key DFO scientists in this process, took the initiative to do her own testing on wild and farmed salmon. She concluded that an ISA virus, or something that is 95 percent similar to the strain afflicting farmed Atlantic salmon in Norway, Scotland, Maritime Canada and Chile, is present in BC waters. And her review of DFO’s archival fish samples shows that markers for ISAv have been present in BC since 1986 – shortly after Atlantic salmon were first farmed here. A study by Dr. Molly Kibenge suggested that ISAv was here in 2004. Despite a UN convention that requires “evidence or suspicion” of ISAv to be reported, this was never done. Neither was evidence of ISAv reported to the initial phase of the Cohen Commission hearings."
http://commonsensecanadian.ca/shades-of-green-salmon-virus-cover-up-about-protecting-markets-not-fish/

also... were supposed to believe these people

"The second of three extra days of hearings at the Cohen Commission into disappearing Fraser River sockeye yielded more surprises – the biggest of which came in the form of a telling internal email strain between DFO and Canadian Food Inspection Agency staff. The emails were sent following a teleconference for media hosted by the two departments, aimed at quelling concerns over the recent discovery of Infectious Salmon Anemia virus in wild BC salmon.

In a message dated November 9, 2011, Joseph Beres, an inspection manager at the CFIA, wrote to colleague Dr. Con Kiley and other senior DFO and CFIA staff who had appeared on the conference call:

Con,

It is clear that we are turning the PR tide to our favour – and this is because of the very successful performance of our spokes[people] at the Tech Briefing yesterday – you, Stephen, Peter and Paul were a terrific team, indeed. Congratulations! One battle is won, now we have to nail the surveillance piece, and we will win the war also.

Cheers, Joe."

this is a very dangerous game of he said she said.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 01, 2013, 05:54:15 AM
http://thetyee.ca/News/2013/10/31/Cohen-Report-One-Year/


On Oct. 31, 2012, Mr. Justice Bruce Cohen issued his long-awaited report on the disastrous Fraser sockeye run of 2009. It runs to three extensive volumes, including a 70-page chapter with 75 carefully argued recommendations.

British Columbian advocates for wild and farmed salmon had a lot riding on Cohen's findings. They had been feuding for years about the impact, if any, of Atlantic salmon farms on the wild Pacific fish -- especially the spread of diseases and parasitic sea lice from the farm pens to the migrating salmon on their way out to sea, and again on their return to spawn.

All sides expressed satisfaction with the report. Cohen had not found the farms responsible, but neither did he entirely approve of maintaining them on sockeye migration routes. He called for a moratorium on establishing new farms in the Discovery Islands, and said all farms in that region should be banned after 2020 unless the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) could prove a minimal risk of serious harm to wild sockeye.

In the past year the controversy has continued; but what's been done about the recommendations? The Tyee asked a number of stakeholders for their thoughts on the impact of the report.

In his reply, Mr. Justice Cohen himself said he was "not able to offer any views on the impact of the report on government policy, nor am I able to offer any views on the government's response, or lack thereof, to the commission's recommendations."

"I have not discussed the report or its recommendations with policymakers, although myself and commission senior counsel, together or individually, have had an opportunity since the report was released to make presentations to some interested non-governmental groups which comprised of an overview of the content of the report and its recommendations," he added.

Others have been less reticent. On the website of the David Suzuki Foundation, Suzuki posted some thoughts on Oct. 24:

"With optimism that the federal government was taking the decline of wild salmon seriously, this independent and thorough review created a blueprint for action. What had become a contentious and polarizing issue had a direction forward.

"That clear direction, however, has been followed with near silence and little effort from the government. Although politicians say they're reviewing the report and taking actions 'consistent with the recommendations', the few steps they have taken, such as providing grants for research projects, miss the mark and don't address the significant issues and opportunities raised by Justice Cohen.

"A year has passed, the testimony is in, the evidence heard and $26 million spent. It's time for action to rebuild wild Pacific salmon runs, so this iconic fish can be shared and enjoyed for generations to come. The fate of wild salmon is too important to be left to languish in government offices. We can't go on setting up inquiries to review problems and then ignore their recommendations."

After the release of the report last year, the B.C. Salmon Farmer's Association issued a news release supporting Cohen's findings, and followed up in March 2013 with another one approving of the B.C. government's response to the report.

That response, according to a Ministry of Agriculture spokesperson, includes the government's March 2013 announcement that it would not issue any new tenure agreements for net-pen salmon farms in the Discovery Islands until Sept. 30, 2010.

In addition, the government is currently seeking public opinion for new legislation that will replace the Water Act, the spokesperson said. Cohen's report urged the province to "resolve differences" over interpretation of certain parts of the old Act.

"The B.C. government is committed to the socially and ecologically responsible management of B.C. fisheries, including an environmentally and economically sustainable aquaculture industry for the benefit of all British Columbians," the spokesperson said.

Advocates waiting on 'concise' response

Responding to a Tyee inquiry by email, the Salmon Farmer's Association director Mary Ellen Walling said she was happy to support the government's decision to accept no further applications for farm sites in the Discovery Islands, which crowd the northern end of Georgia Strait and force migrating salmon into a few narrow channels before reaching the sea.

According to a recent news release from the association, salmon farmers are hosting a series of workshops to identify possible risks to wild salmon, and are monitoring water temperatures -- "the issue Commissioner Cohen deemed 'the elephant in the room' during the release of his report," it read.

Will Soltau, sustainable fisheries and salmon farming campaign manager for the Living Oceans Society, said that the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans "has still not produced a concise response since the report was released, making it hard to judge the impact on management."

"I can point to only one recommendation that has been adopted in a timely manner -- the publication of an approved Integrated Salmon Fisheries Management Plan for 2013. To my knowledge, DFO has no implemented any other recommendations and they have missed all of the report's deadlines to date," he said.

DFO did not respond to a Tyee query by publication time. The last mention of Cohen on the department's website was a news release about Fisheries Minister Gail Shea tabling the report on Oct. 31, 2012.

'It just requires government to lead the way'

"Cohen pointed to a number of threats in his report and said he could not find a single smoking gun. In that sense he didn't change the debate over the fate of wild salmon," Living Oceans' Soltau said.

"He did, however, clearly identify a number of knowledge gaps needing to be addressed. The report is a template that should have significant impact on the fate of wild salmon. The template is there. Now, it just requires government to lead the way and take some action."

Soltau added that Living Oceans has held meetings with government officials, especially to discuss Shelter Bay and Marsh Bay, north of Port Hardy, as problems:

"Evidence presented during the Cohen Inquiry shows how these two salmon farms are in the path of the Cultus Lake sockeye salmon -- a Fraser River stock recommended for listing under the Species at Risk Act by COSEWIC. We reminded DFO about this evidence and yet they approved significant production increases, refusing to share with us the reasons for their decision. We were told to file an Access to Information request. We did and are still waiting for a response to our request."

Biologist Alexandra Morton called the Cohen Commission "a good long look behind the iron curtain of government protection of the salmon farming industry."

"I learned there is no mechanism without DFO to protect wild salmon," she said. "I also learned that there are many wonderful people in DFO who are trying to protect wild salmon, but basically they are out-numbered and out-gunned."

She quoted Cohen: "I therefore conclude that the potential harm posed to Fraser River sockeye from salmon farms is serious or irreversible."

Morton pointed out that 11 of Cohen's recommendations were intended to protect wild sockeye from the effects of salmon farms. She also mentioned a March 13, 2013 deadline Cohen had set for DFO to revise its criteria for siting new farms -- a deadline she said was ignored.

In Morton's interpretation, "Cohen is saying get the salmon farms out of the place the Fraser sockeye come into closest contact with Atlantic salmon -- unless DFO can prove the Atlantic salmon are having only minimal risk."

Discussing her own research into viruses affecting wild salmon and prey species like herring, Morton said: "Government has not reacted to the Cohen Commission, but I have, and with the support of British Columbians I am racing a viral epidemic that government has given the viruses the head start."

Limited run this year

The Cohen Commission was sparked by the fate of one year's run of the Fraser River sockeye -- 2009. According to a Sept. 13 news release from the Pacific Salmon Commission, this year's run has not seen that run's descendants bounce back.

"The estimated total return of the Fraser River sockeye salmon this season is 3,732,000 fish, which is over double the very low Fraser sockeye return in the parent brood year (2009). However, the Fraser sockeye return this season is lower than the median (50p) pre-season forecast of 4,765,000 fish," it reads.

As a result, the sockeye fishery this fall has been limited to "ceremonial and subsistence" catches by First Nations; those fishing for pinks were told their efforts must include "non-retention of sockeye."

Given the continuing fragility of the Fraser sockeye, and the importance of the fish to the whole coastal ecosystem, many British Columbians are hoping for the federal government to act more decisively on Mr. Justice Cohen's recommendations well before his report's second anniversary arrives on Oct. 31, 2014. [Tyee]
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 01, 2013, 09:02:29 AM
"On Oct. 31, 2012, Justice Bruce Cohen released his 1200-page, 75-recommendation final report after three years of research, hearings and investigation into possible causes of the decline of Fraser River Sockeye. While he found no single cause, the commissioner made a long list of recommendations ranging from wild fisheries management, to improvements in hatchery operations. Eleven recommendations related to salmon aquaculture."

"While he found no single cause". 26M spent, and Doc Morton is still guessing. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 01, 2013, 06:29:58 PM
Here is a post you can pick apart NB. :)

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/bc-fisheries-news-watch-october-1-october-28-2013-salmon
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 02, 2013, 07:35:04 AM
Here is a post you can pick apart NB. :)

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/bc-fisheries-news-watch-october-1-october-28-2013-salmon

It was all from feedlot efforts......


(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/polish_a_turd_mousepad_zpsb12a5edb.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/polish_a_turd_mousepad_zpsb12a5edb.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 07, 2013, 08:46:10 AM
Warning, obedient listeners will not like this. :)

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/11/06/david-suzuki-the-fallen-saint
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 07, 2013, 08:58:50 AM
26 mil.
"“I am also satisfied that marine conditions in both the Strait of Georgia and Queen Charlotte Sound in 2007 were likely to be the primary factors responsible for the poor returns in 2009. Abnormally high freshwater discharge, warmer-than-usual sea surface temperatures, strong winds, and lower-than-normal salinity may have resulted in abnormally low phytoplankton and nitrate concentrations that could have led to poor zooplankton (food for sockeye) production.” (Volume 3, page 59)
Wow! “Primary factors”, you say Judge? That sure sounds like the “smoking gun”!
And then this zinger:
“…data presented during this Inquiry did not show that salmon farms were having a significant negative impact on Fraser River sockeye…” (Volume 3, page 24).
Holy crap!"

http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/blog/

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on November 07, 2013, 03:35:45 PM
Worried about your job at the fish farm Bob?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on November 07, 2013, 04:40:11 PM
Worried about your job at the fish farm Bob?
Worried about your stand on this issue troutbreath?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on November 07, 2013, 06:59:25 PM
Worried about your stand on this issue troutbreath?

More selected material from self interest enterprizers does not worry me. People gullible enough to embrace it does. The web site bob is getting his info from is probably done by "salmon farmers" who are against "salmon ranchers". Your type of people Dave (?) just feeding off each other about who's better. Great comic relief to me alright. Worry?
----------------------------------------
About us
The purpose of this blog is to educate the public about salmon culture in Alaska by:

■explaining what salmon ranching is.
■exposing marketing campaigns that make false claims like “salmon from Alaska is 100% wild“.
■making fair benefit/impact comparisons to other fish culture techniques around the world.
■breaking through the anti-fish culture smoke screen adopted by many Alaskan fisherman, marketers and journalists.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 08, 2013, 08:01:48 AM
Worried about your job at the fish farm Bob?
Not at all TB, I am not a farmer. That is a typical question from the obedient listening crowd though. :)
Are you saying this quote is all made up TB? Oh I forgot, the obedient listeners are not allowed to answer questions.

" "“I am also satisfied that marine conditions in both the Strait of Georgia and Queen Charlotte Sound in 2007 were likely to be the primary factors responsible for the poor returns in 2009. Abnormally high freshwater discharge, warmer-than-usual sea surface temperatures, strong winds, and lower-than-normal salinity may have resulted in abnormally low phytoplankton and nitrate concentrations that could have led to poor zooplankton (food for sockeye) production.” (Volume 3, page 59)
Wow! “Primary factors”, you say Judge? That sure sounds like the “smoking gun”!
And then this zinger:
“…data presented during this Inquiry did not show that salmon farms were having a significant negative impact on Fraser River sockeye…” (Volume 3, page 24)."
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on November 08, 2013, 03:45:54 PM
Your really clingon on that goofy website poop. Sure your not worried about the fish farming job bob.


“…data presented during this Inquiry did not show that salmon farms were having a significant negative impact on Fraser River sockeye…”

I don't know how you see that as a rock solid statement that the data may be accurate. But hey get it on a Tshirt and wear it to work at the fishfarm. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 08, 2013, 04:51:49 PM

“…data presented during this Inquiry did not show that salmon farms were having a significant negative impact on Fraser River sockeye…”

Now you are seeing the big picture like a good obedient listener. :) i see you read volume 3 page 24. Good for you.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 08, 2013, 04:57:24 PM
2012 seafood industry review.
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/stats/YinReview/Seafood-YIR-2012.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on November 08, 2013, 07:48:02 PM
Now you are seeing the big picture like a good obedient listener. :) i see you read volume 3 page 24. Good for you.


?????? Back away from the bottle buddy.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 08, 2013, 08:26:52 PM

?????? Back away from the bottle buddy.

Not bad for a dreamer. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 09, 2013, 08:33:49 AM
http://m.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20131106/KAMLOOPS0101/131109931/-1/kamloops01/feds-taking-action-on-sockeye-decline-minister-insists&template=JQMArticle
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 09, 2013, 12:54:29 PM
http://m.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20131106/KAMLOOPS0101/131109931/-1/kamloops01/feds-taking-action-on-sockeye-decline-minister-insists&template=JQMArticle


WOW! 50 MILLION OVER 5 YEARS! thats taking the bull ($*^t) by the horns!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: brownmancheng on November 09, 2013, 03:32:15 PM
My favorite part is: we haven't done very much Bc there was no smoking gun.
This government is ridiculous. I'm sure everyone was expecting a simple solution to a complex problem  :o

Seems to me if there are many issues should we not be also taking a multi pronged approach?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 10, 2013, 06:33:07 AM
My favorite part is: we haven't done very much Bc there was no smoking gun.
This government is ridiculous. I'm sure everyone was expecting a simple solution to a complex problem  :o

Seems to me if there are many issues should we not be also taking a multi pronged approach?

Agreed. They spent that much for Tony Clement's gazebos, not to mention a BILLION on the G 20 meeting. A national resource and priceless treasure? They dig the change out of the couch, muzzle science and drag their feet.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on November 12, 2013, 09:25:12 PM

The past denials through communication sites regarding sea lice.  The actual TONNAGE of drugs dropped into our ocean as well as a complete ignorance towards the future and the potential consequences of open net farming.  The lack of farms to move on recommendations and the amount of effort put forth to 'educate' the public.... and the visual impact of having a farm sitting in one of the most beautiful parts of the world.

I just provided you an example of how the BC fish farming industry is partnering with government and non-governmental organizations with this Fish Health Initiative.  Why you continue to remain ignorant to this mystifies me because I directed you to the actual proposed study.  The fact is that the BC industry supports the recommendation put forward by Cohen.  It is in their best interests to get the ball rolling on this.  Ironically, it is the Federal Government and fish farm activists that are involved in either shelving the recommendations or pushing the blame to subordinates below, or coming up with their own version of the recommendations which are not based in fact (i.e. Salmon Confidential).

Quote
What truly boggles my mind, is that someone who appears to be as intelligent as you can support such a....... crime.

I support defensible science and factual information.  I like to look at the whole issue instead of being fixated on just one aspect.  I support those that actually know what they are talking about with regards to Pacific Salmon biology or fish pathology rather than those (i.e. Morton) that know little about both and actually mislead the public in the process.  I also support those that question the theories and opinions presented by anti fish farm activists instead of taking what they say at face value.  If the cause of activists is so right and just then there should be no need for false claims and misinformation; however, that is exactly what we are getting.  Sorry, I do not subscribe to fear mongering and the “ends justify the means” mentality of many anti-fish farm activists.  If being intelligent is to throw out critical thinking, exaggerate, make false claims and be afraid to question so-called “Warriors of Wild Salmon” then I agree I have a different mind set than you do on this.  What is a “crime” is to be afraid to not just question industry or government, but to not question critics of fish farming in BC out of fear of being labelled as corrupted or not loving wild salmon.  If the theories presented by critics are so solid then they should have no problem defending them.  More often than not, people that oppose fish farming in BC follow others –like sheep off a cliff – instead of looking at the whole issue.  Furthermore, I suggest that many of these activists that claim to love wild salmon know very little about them.  In my opinion, this is the type of issue where one should at least show some interest in things like Fraser Sockeye if they are going to hold them so dear to their heart.  For instance, there was this one fellow on this other forum that claimed that the big return of 2010 Adams River Sockeye was because those returning Adams Sockeye adults migrated back through the Strait of Juan de Fuca and therefore missed all the salmon farms between Vancouver Island and the mainland.  However, that is totally false and the information to disprove this myth is actually not hard to find if one goes to the Pacific Salmon Commission website.  The fact is that at the end of August 2010, approximately 94% of the Late Run Sockeye (which includes Late South Thompson Sockeye like the Adams) diverted through Johnstone Strait.

Additionally, some activists believe that a dead fish is supposed to retain its red gills as it decomposes.  If the gills are white then it is suspicious.  Of course, there is no mention that migrating adult salmon that enter freshwater undergo putrefaction and cell autolysis and that this is accelerated once the fish is dead and is exposed to nature’s elements.  No, instead let’s jump right to something suspicious with no evidence and blame salmon farms.  Yeah, that takes intelligence.  The other myth being peddled by activists are that Harrison Sockeye do not die before spawning.  Similar to understanding fish farming practices in BC, if people are going to take up the cause of wild salmon then they should take the time to learn something about them or at least concede when they do not and perhaps learn something in the process.

I support the responsible work being done right now that is currently addressing some of these issues, but is not getting mentioned in the media.  Unlike fish farm activists and the Federal Conservative cabinet, I support the recommendations in the Cohen Report.  I believe it is a “crime” to put most of your faith in perceptions and masquerading them as facts.

Quote
if you really were as informed as you claim to be, you would know that the "need for more protein for the human population" is a farce.  That a redistribution of wealth, rather, a reduction in how much food we waste would be better for the human population than putting more of these pens in pristine oceans.

If you were as informed as you claim to be you would realize that aquaculture globally is increasing each year and is not going away.  Don’t take my word for it – check out information from the FAO.  So, you can preach the redistribution theory till you turn blue in the face.  What is not a bottomless pit has been our desire to repeatedly pillage our “pristine” oceans of wild fish species in mixed stock fisheries where weaker stocks are frequently captured with stronger ones.  Really…pristine??  Of course the only impacts to our oceans are those nasty fish farms.  Those primary sewage systems that pump directly into the ocean are just useful fertilizer.  Yeah, humans have kept the oceans pristine before aquaculture began.  Give me a break…lol.  By now you must have come across the work of Randall Peterman in the report.  What does he have to say?  Do you believe he has some valuable information that adds to our greater understanding of the issue?

Quote
edit: I did read volume 2. Isa is found in pacific salmon.  and if ISA gets atlantics sick, errrr actually it kills them.  wouldn't you want to remove your investment from that environment?  thats what a smart person would do.

To clarify, Pacific Salmon were experimentally infected with ISAv but were found to be largely resistant to developing the disease (ISA).  In Volume 2, Dr. Kibenge stated that Pacific Salmon are not known to develop ISA (Vol. 2, Chapter 4, pg. 61).  As you have found out already there is no amount of manufacturing you can do to create an epidemic of ISA here.  As you have found out already in the Cohen Report, the findings were clear about what was found and what was not.

In regards to Dr. Molly Kibenge’s findings of ISAv you forgot to mention her husband’s opinion of the samples from Cultus Lake as well as the 20 blinds samples (10 positive and 10 negative in Molly Kibenge’s samples) sent to be tested at his lab at the Atlantic Veterinary College.  Dr. Fred Kibenge was able to confirm that 6 of the samples were positive, but 3 of these were in Dr. Molly Kibenge’s negative samples and 3 were in her positive samples.  Following that, the collective decision was to send the samples to the Moncton lab for re-testing using the same primers and kits that Dr. Molly Kibenge used.  These additional tests were unable to find positive results.  Further testing was done after that using the validated real-time PCR test as well as the Snow segment 8 primers.  These additional tests were unable to find positive results (Cohen Final Report; Vol. 1.; Chapter 9; page 458).
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on November 13, 2013, 06:49:57 AM
Steve, yes I am well aware of the increasing amount of aqualculture around the world.  some of my philipino friends talk about about a lot of destruction to put shrimp farms in.  I saw first hand the grass roots push to stop mangrove destruction in belize as well.

I have the doom and gloom attitude because us humans have a fairly dismal track record on a lot of things..... and suffered in many areas of the world because of development.  History has a tendency to repeat itself unfortunately.

Again steve, I dont think i'm being ignorant to the fact that the BC salmon farming industry is trying to a better job.  You guys are definitely trying. But the consequences are huge.... and with our beaurocratic process being slower than molasses its going to be years before " a proposed study" is completed and acted on..... decades is more realistic.

I just don't want you to be wrong.  really.   

I think they should be on land. Thats my beef. Every time I maintain my aquarium or test the water, I think how the hell are these guys doing this on a farm....  Science knows more about the moon than it does about the ocean.  Thats a scary fact.  But its cool to continue the practice in your eyes....

and yes there are tons of things (industries) that are also ruining our oceans.  But there are regulations and testing in place (now) to try and keep environmental impacts to a minimum. it's not 1964 anymore. If your industry is heavily regulated, most others are as well....Thats pure deflection as my wife would say.

I still have a couple hundred pages left on the report too... been a lil busy.

on a side note... you should come to the fly fishing film tour on dec 5th in vancouver.  I will buy you a beer and you can elaborate some more...... your helping a worthy cause.

I guarantee you no farmed atlantic salmon or wild fraser sockeye will be harmed during the evening.  :)

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 15, 2013, 09:22:26 AM
http://www.nanaimobulletin.com/news/231778951.html?mobile=true
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on November 18, 2013, 04:30:49 PM
Again steve, I dont think i'm being ignorant to the fact that the BC salmon farming industry is trying to a better job.  You guys are definitely trying. But the consequences are huge.... and with our beaurocratic process being slower than molasses its going to be years before " a proposed study" is completed and acted on..... decades is more realistic.

First, I don't work in the BC fish farm industry as I indicated many pages ago now, so when you say "you guys" I have no idea why you are still making that association.  Second, the study I mentioned is going ahead, so I shouldn't have said "proposed".  Third, studies like this are not done in a few months and reported on immediately.  If you want fast studies with very little regard for science then Morton is the person to put your faith into.  Consequences could be high, but Cohen also indicated that there was no smoking gun either.  He also didn't find evidence that salmon farms were the cause of the declines or that diseases were out of control on BC fish farms.  Cohen is accepting that there is some risk posted to wild Fraser River Sockeye salmon which is understandable because there is always risk to any industry of development in and around water.  In order to address whether this risk is greater he made recommendations to hopefully find the answers people are looking for.  The problem is that researchers (governmental and non-governmental) have been using data sets over a relatively short time scale.  This was mentioned by Josh Korman during testimony.  Cohen wants to see more data collected to over a larger time scale so more definitive conclusions can be made.  The study I directed you to is meant to address that.  That being said, I believe there are far worse consequences/challenges on the horizon for Fraser Sockeye than fish farms.  In my opinion, I believe Morton has created a public fearful of viruses and diseases to the point where critical thinking and objectively is lost.  Pacific salmon have lived and will continue live with viruses and diseases if net-pens are used or not.

Quote
I think they should be on land. Thats my beef. Every time I maintain my aquarium or test the water, I think how the hell are these guys doing this on a farm....  Science knows more about the moon than it does about the ocean.  Thats a scary fact.  But its cool to continue the practice in your eyes....

Well, if you are still thinking about how the hell they are doing it then why do you take a tour of fish farm?  It is "cool" to gather information to make informed decisions - not react to fear based on unsubstantiated claims or misinformation.  That would be "uncool".

Quote
and yes there are tons of things (industries) that are also ruining our oceans.  But there are regulations and testing in place (now) to try and keep environmental impacts to a minimum. it's not 1964 anymore. If your industry is heavily regulated, most others are as well....Thats pure deflection as my wife would say.

Not a deflection at all.  You are the one that brought up "pristine" oceans which was like throwing me fat pitch across the plate ready to be hit out of the park.  You just merely want to forget about what others are doing and focus on fish farms.  Do you think grey water is always disposed of properly by good stewards of the environment?  The fact is that the BC fish farm industry here is very regulated - more so than other industries that work in and around water.  Look into it.  The aquaculture industry here is more regulated than other places that engage in aquaculture.  There are regulations and testing done on BC fish farms to try to keep environmental impacts to a minimum - it is not 1964 anymore. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on November 18, 2013, 05:25:11 PM
well steve, referring to you as "you guys" simply means you support pens in the ocean.

 "Consequences could be high, but Cohen also indicated that there was no smoking gun either.  He also didn't find evidence that salmon farms were the cause of the declines or that diseases were out of control on BC fish farms.  Cohen is accepting that there is some risk posted to wild Fraser River Sockeye salmon which is understandable because there is always risk to any industry of development in and around water.  In order to address whether this risk is greater he made recommendations to hopefully find the answers people are looking for.  The problem is that researchers (governmental and non-governmental) have been using data sets over a relatively short time scale. "

So the consequences are high, the recommendations are not being acted upon and the scientific process is slow. These are great ingredients for some troubling times..... hopefully we will find some answers.

Our ocean is pristine in my eyes.  Maybe you see it differently, but I'm fairly confident that they are pristine. I don't know how you think your hitting a home run here.  Do you think our coast is a disaster area full of toxic substances, void of life and nothing edible?

 I find that an interesting observation considering the millions of tourists that visit BC yearly to see our 'pristine' ocean and coast line. Not even including the cruise ship passengers who pay thousands for a peek of what we live in.  maybe you've seen more of BC than most. But I consider BC spectacular, especially our coast.

being informed is cool. it's why I have taken the time to read the report, read the links posted... to have an educated opinion. Thats what it is now..... Like I said previously, I have visited hatceries on numerous occasions and have a friend employed by one.  I might have an opportunity to visit a farm and would appreciate the learning experience. Though I have taken 'virtual' tours and seen the opposite in youtube videos.

I am well aware of what other industries do and how most are regulated.  ::)   I just find it ammusing, and this is obvious where we differ in opinions. Your proud and boisterous of the fact that BC has the strongest regulations regarding aqualculture in the world. you love it... it's mentioned in nearly every post.

See, I think thats not even something to be proud of.... that should be a minimal expectation. So your proud the industry is not trying to screw everything up.

maybe you really do think its 1964 because your accepting of a fact that aquaculture is TRYING TO MINIMIZE the environmental impact when they can nearly eliminate it all together.


the smoking picture I posted a while back sums it up all nicely.... Dr. Steve



Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on November 18, 2013, 07:05:30 PM
Banx, I think I have read every post by Shuswapsteve, here on FWR as well as his posts on other fishing forums.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I do not recall him ever saying he is in favour of open net salmon farming.  What he does continually say is do your homework, think critically, and do not just buy into the media induced phobia against salmon farms, by people with sketchy agendas (think Staniford et al).

That makes sense to me as after over 30 years of salmon farming here in BC and Washington State, there have never been any, that is a total of none, documented mortalities to wild salmon attributed to famed Atlantic's.   Conversely, over those same 30 odd years how many streams have been decimated by urban encroachment?  How much salmonid habitat has been lost to poor horticultural and agricultural practices? How many stocks have been overfished into near oblivion? Who would have thought that the average Fraser River summer temperature would have risen by 2 degrees in the last 50 years, or the spring freshet would be weeks earlier than the long term hydrograph, due to climate change?
You suggest the BC salmon farming industry could be stopped immediately; please inform readers, the ones who don't catch and kill their own hatchery salmon, where they should purchase a salmon to consume because BC has no wild salmon stocks with populations robust enough, commercially, to satisfy this demand.  What would you propose the Province of BC do with the people who have 4-5 thousand direct jobs attributed to this industry?
Bottom line, the only people and business's who would benefit from removing salmon farms from BC is the Alaskan salmon ranching industry. 

Hmmm...
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on November 18, 2013, 07:37:36 PM
well there would be a progression I would expect. I understand the economical impact, for sure. But the environmental impacts far outweight any positive impacts $ can have. even if it is considered a 'potential'. you can not insure the water.  People have adapted and changed and survived. Do you expect those four thousand people to give up, starve and die..... I wouldn't expect that. people lose jobs in industries all the time, and for greedier reasons.

Considering the highest standards incorporated in bc salmon farming, I think its a safe assumption that these same pioneers be the best to lead the way to closed containment pens.

I also appreciate where you (guys) are coming from pointing at urban development as well as other industries decimating habitat and eliminating salmon spawing streams completely. There will never be any comparison between the damage a salmon farm COULD do with what has already taken place. There is no denying that.

But what you are failing to recognize, and I wish I could be more articulate instead of emotional, but there is a change happening.  People are starting to care.  they are working and volunteering. In those 30 years of farms your talking about, streams that were struggling to sustain life are now having positive changes. You can see it here in the lower mainland in particular. There is a lot of hatchery work, but things are looking better than they are worse.

If people are starting to see positive changes in their immediate environment its only natural that it would progress to areas not to far away.... ie our pristine oceans.

you see it in the political arena and expect salmon farms to be a future corncern for more people as they become more educated. the pipeline is an obvious example..... I had a hard time watching salmon confidential. Mostly that I couldn't believe that was happening in BC,  that what they were portraying couldn't be taking place.... theres no way...an exageration.  I don't support morton and some of the stuff I've read on my side of the fence seems far fetched at best.

but there is no denying that this 'industry' is better off on land for all of us.  It needs to start at some point, and now is as good as any.


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 18, 2013, 08:01:33 PM
Just buy American and all will be fine. :)
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/blog/

But on the brighter side. :)
http://www.campbellrivermirror.com/news/231953481.html?mobile=true
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: salmonrook on November 19, 2013, 01:18:01 AM

Bottom line, the only people and business's who would benefit from removing salmon farms from BC is the Alaskan salmon ranching industry. 

Hmmm...

Is it not true that 98% of the fish farms are owned by Norwegian interests.Surely most revenues would not stay in the country.Whats the benefit for us ?
 Is it also true that most of the exports go to the US.
Why would we continue on this road, so we can provide the US with cheap farmed fish at the expense of our environment .
Surely the jobs lost can be found elsewhere supportting a sport fishing industry or tourism.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 19, 2013, 06:25:11 AM
Just buy American and all will be fine. :)
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/blog/

WOW! Did Canada take over the US while I was sleeping? Or did we just take over Alaska? Because I know we had ZILCH influence on American policies when I went to sleep last night.

But on the brighter side. :)
http://www.campbellrivermirror.com/news/231953481.html?mobile=true

And how was the sockeye return this year?

Divert and deflect farmfisherbawb.....monotonous, at the very best, ridiculous in reality. Lots of slobs toss garbage around the rivers ::) :o- if they're doing it, so should I?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on November 19, 2013, 07:33:37 AM
Is it not true that 98% of the fish farms are owned by Norwegian interests.Surely most revenues would not stay in the country.Whats the benefit for us ?
 Is it also true that most of the exports go to the US.
Why would we continue on this road, so we can provide the US with cheap farmed fish at the expense of our environment .
Surely the jobs lost can be found elsewhere supportting a sport fishing industry or tourism.

Succinct point. Why make a mess of our waters to feed Americans dirty fish and line the pockets of Foreign pirates. As far as jobs go those numbers would be the same if they did it land based.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 19, 2013, 07:46:48 AM
Farmfisherbawb, Steve, Dave or any of your supporting cast members - Would you care to put a number or show any effort the the feedlot groups have put into wild fish/ environmental enhancement? Do you REALLY believe the stuff that drops from the pens is benign?

Please, no soft shoe dance or sidestepping. Plain English without the $50 words, I'm just an ignernt redneck.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 19, 2013, 08:41:30 AM
Not hard to find. :)
http://www.aquaculture.ca/files/species-salmon.php
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 19, 2013, 11:24:21 AM
Long read.
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/epd/industrial/aquaculture/pdf/aquarpt01.pdf

Regs today.
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/management-gestion/regs-eng.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on November 19, 2013, 11:39:38 AM
Good post Bawb sure helps to clear things up:

"Despite all of the preventative measures, some salmon do occasionally become ill. A veterinarian will then examine the fish and determine the appropriate action to be taken. As with all farm animals, the veterinarian may sometimes decide that the illness requires antibiotic treatment - and will then prescribe a registered antibiotic that is approved by the Veterinary Drug Directorate of Health Canada. "


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 19, 2013, 12:10:32 PM
Aw Bawb - I wonder if you're related to the Ford brothers with the constant denial.  So you say it's OK to put slice, poop, antibiotics and all the other CRAP into "pristine waters"?

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/laugh_zps13001fca.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/laugh_zps13001fca.gif.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 19, 2013, 12:15:45 PM
Hey Bawb - read this about the drugs we already are getting into the water systems. But we need to add more?  :o ::)

http://www.nrdc.org/thisgreenlife/1109.asp

http://healthblog.londondrugs.com/the-safe-disposal-of-drugs

http://www.fcgov.com/utilities/what-we-do/wastewater/pharmaceutical-waste-disposal

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/drugs/resourcesforyou/consumers/buyingusingmedicinesafely/understandingover-the-countermedicines/ucm107163.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 19, 2013, 09:11:22 PM
You forgot to put this up since you seem to dwell on doom and gloom NB. How much do you and TB get payed by the American marketing crew?  :)
http://www.sciencebase.com/drugs_in_water_supply.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on November 19, 2013, 10:13:42 PM
Good to see your coming clean about your condition with the chemical cocktail that's in BC farmed salmon Bawb. There should be treatment centers to nip it in the bud ,eh.

"nighttime is only the opposite of daytime"

 ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 20, 2013, 05:46:36 AM
You forgot to put this up since you seem to dwell on doom and gloom NB. How much do you and TB get payed by the American marketing crew?  :)
http://www.sciencebase.com/drugs_in_water_supply.html


I do it for the fame and glory Bawb. ::)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 20, 2013, 08:20:28 AM
http://www.theprogress.com/news/232539461.html?mobile=true
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: swimmingwiththefishes on November 20, 2013, 12:23:09 PM
Hey this is also a good read. What do the farm fish supporters think about taxpayers bailing them out for diseases they imported.

http://commonsensecanadian.ca/canadian-taxpayers-bail-norwegian-fish-farms-diseased-fish/

These things need to go WAAAAY offshore or onto land. Ridiculous.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 20, 2013, 02:03:55 PM
Hey this is also a good read. What do the farm fish supporters think about taxpayers bailing them out for diseases they imported.

http://commonsensecanadian.ca/canadian-taxpayers-bail-norwegian-fish-farms-diseased-fish/

These things need to go WAAAAY offshore or onto land. Ridiculous.


Don't inconvenience the feedlot farm hands with facts and figures. You'll be sent to Norway for reprogramming.  - (See farmfisherbawb's rhetoric and his sources of  (dis)information.)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 22, 2013, 10:14:04 AM

Don't inconvenience the feedlot farm hands with facts and figures. You'll be sent to Norway for reprogramming.  - (See farmfisherbawb's rhetoric and his sources of  (dis)information.)
I am not a fish farmer NB. Seems you like to say that as a racial mud sling. Well, what ever spins your real dude. :). Your kind of Rhetoric is why I no longer support Doc Morton and her American special intrest groups. If I have to listen to propaganda I would rather it be Canadian.:)
http://www.mainstream-group.com/portal/wps/wcm/connect/msca-content-en/mainstream-canada/news/conflict-and-criticism/blog+post+full+of+errors%2C+ignorance+about+salmon+farming+and+business
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 22, 2013, 10:35:48 AM
There you go again, telling me I'm promoting Ms. Morton - one more time, show me where. Can't find it? Doesn't exist. The only thing I look at is tangible common sense, not self serving propaganda sites, financed by special interest groups. Dumping poop, antibiotics and chemicals, bringing in a foreign species,  elevated disease levels, elevated sea lice levels, (diseases have proven to mutate) -  all in pristine waters is lacking common sense, critical thought and poor environmental stewardship.But you know that already.....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 22, 2013, 03:51:54 PM
There you go again, telling me I'm promoting Ms. Morton - one more time, show me where. Can't find it? Doesn't exist. The only thing I look at is tangible common sense, not self serving propaganda sites, financed by special interest groups. Dumping poop, antibiotics and chemicals, bringing in a foreign species,  elevated disease levels, elevated sea lice levels, (diseases have proven to mutate) -  all in pristine waters is lacking common sense, critical thought and poor environmental stewardship.But you know that already.....
You sure like to add to what I post NB. No wonder you believe all that American marketing guanda and think I am a fish farmer. :) too funny.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on November 22, 2013, 10:02:52 PM
well steve, referring to you as "you guys" simply means you support pens in the ocean.

Here we go again.  As Dave correctly stated, I do not care for media and activist induced phobia against salmon farms – especially from those that do not know what they are talking about (namely Ms Morton and Mr. Staniford).  I do not really care if BC fish farmers decide to go close containment.  What I do care about are the conclusions being made by activists to justify their position that net pens are as destructive on BC wild salmon as they claim they are.  In my opinion, many of their theories are based on ignorance and misinformation and actually do science a disservice in the long run rather than enhance it.  I care that wild salmon are actually being forgot by activists that seem more focused on an agenda against the industry instead of the long term viability of wild salmon and the research to find answers.  I support defensible science done by people that know what they are doing - looking for answers instead of being solely focused on one culprit and trying to build a case around that.  If pens are more than a minimal impact in those areas identified by Cohen then I am willing to change my opinions as I indicated earlier in this thread.

Quote
So the consequences are high, the recommendations are not being acted upon and the scientific process is slow. These are great ingredients for some troubling times..... hopefully we will find some answers.

Consequences can be high with other things we do in and around water; however, rarely does one factor work in isolation of another.  This is why trying to find a “smoking gun” in this equation is often difficult to do – contrary to what anti fish farm activist lead us to believe.  What you are doing is focusing solely on fish farms as the immediate and present danger and this is not what Cohen found or wanted people to take from the report.  If you finally cared to look at the work from Peterman and Dorner in the report you will notice low Sockeye productivity is being seen outside of the Fraser River as far as some systems in Alaska.  While reading the report you likely noticed this also:

“I am also satisfied that marine conditions in both the Strait of Georgia and Queen Charlotte Sound in 2007 were likely to be the primary factors responsible for the poor returns in 2009. Abnormally high freshwater discharge, warmer-than-usual sea surface temperatures, strong winds, and lower-than-normal salinity may have resulted in abnormally low phytoplankton and nitrate concentrations that could have led to poor zooplankton (food for sockeye) production.” (Volume 3, page 59)

What this indicates is that there is likely much more going on which is going to involve further scientific investigation.  When you notice the huge Pink Salmon returns this season along with the rebound in Sockeye numbers from the 2009 brood it also suggests that things are not so easily explained as some anti-fish farm activists think they are.  This “pristine” ocean you are talking about is slightly more complex that you give it credit for.  There is actually more going on.  Like you said already, we probably know more about the moon than we do about our oceans.  In my opinion, if fish farms here are so destructive as activists claim they are we would be seeing some of their theories come true; instead, when their theories don’t pan out they look for alternative answers which make no sense.  For instance, one staunch anti-fish farm individual on another forum suggested that the reason BC fish farms cannot find ISAv was because they killed them for market before they died of ISA; if they lived longer they would have eventually die of ISA. Really?  The fact is that ISA is a deadly disease for Atlantic Salmon – they would have died before they reached market size.  It does not make any sense if critics are using Chile as an example.

Another theory from another staunch fish farm opponent was what if the ISA strain were an altered strain (something viruses do, he said) – that affected wild stocks, but was not as bad for Atlantics.  The problem with theory is that it conflicts with what fish farm critics have been long saying about ISAv being spread by egg imports from Norway to Chile to here.  So, am I to assume that ISAv was spread here by egg imports from Norway (the same thing that happened to Chile that killed millions of farmed Atlantic Salmon), mutated into a strain that was no longer highly pathogenic to Atlantic Salmon and only affects wild salmon off BC.  That is one magic virus – like the magic bullet theory in Dallas, TX a long time ago.  Not only is this theory not supported by any evidence, but it runs contrary to what we already know about ISAv and ISA.  It runs contrary to what expert testimony (Miller, Kibenge, and Nylund) stated at the Cohen Inquiry.

Lastly, as for the recommendations not being acted upon, that needs clarification.  The fact is that there are some things being acted upon and have been prior to the release of the report.  One of the big problems here is that that this is not being reported in the media and relayed to the public.  Somehow government is reluctant to let people know. 

Quote
I find that an interesting observation considering the millions of tourists that visit BC yearly to see our 'pristine' ocean and coast line. Not even including the cruise ship passengers who pay thousands for a peek of what we live in.  maybe you've seen more of BC than most. But I consider BC spectacular, especially our coast.

I did not say that our coastline was so polluted that it is scaring away tourists; however, our oceans are far from pristine now as we (you and me and everyone else) have all played their parts with impacts.  So, when you talk about the benthic impacts of BC fish farms on our pristine ocean you then proceed to hop, skip and jump over many other players and minimize their contribution and focused solely on fish farms - as if fish farms have now created the imbalance.  Look around you.  Look at other industries and human activities in and around our “pristine” oceans before you start pointing fingers at aquaculture as the big offender.  It is not deflection – it is about being fair with criticism.

Quote
I am well aware of what other industries do and how most are regulated.  I just find it ammusing, and this is obvious where we differ in opinions. Your proud and boisterous of the fact that BC has the strongest regulations regarding aqualculture in the world. you love it... it's mentioned in nearly every post.

See, I think thats not even something to be proud of.... that should be a minimal expectation. So your proud the industry is not trying to screw everything up.[/quote]

LOL…..I am just saying that the BC industry here has some strong regulations that are actually more stringent than many places in the world that have aquaculture.  You seem to believe that things are so lax and unregulated with BC fish farms.  It is not about being “proud” or “loving it”.  I have no idea what you are trying to say in the next paragraph.  Ahh….yeah, I am glad the industry is not trying to screw everything up…..Yeah…you got me there….I am glad CN Rail has emergency procedures in place in case there is a train derailment……I am glad that when I fly in a commercial airline that the pilot is trained to not only fly the plane, but is able to deal with emergencies…….just like I am glad you stop at controlled pedestrian crosswalks to let pedestrians cross the road instead of hitting them….lol.  Really??  But thanks for telling me how “aware” you are.  I am comforted now.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 23, 2013, 07:35:14 AM
You sure like to add to what I post NB. No wonder you believe all that American marketing guanda and think I am a fish farmer. :) too funny.


My deepest apologies - Apparently, you work for a PR firm hired by the feedlots instead. My mistake.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on November 23, 2013, 09:08:08 AM

My deepest apologies - Apparently, you work for a PR firm hired by the feedlots instead. My mistake.

Steve works for a company that has pretty much the worst PR reps around. Good stuff.

Aren't you guys getting bored yet? It's like Groundhog Day poking my head back into this thread after more than a month off.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on November 23, 2013, 01:55:41 PM
Steve works for a company that has pretty much the worst PR reps around. Good stuff.

LOL!!  You haven't been sent to Nunavut yet I see ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 23, 2013, 05:36:57 PM
Steve works for a company that has pretty much the worst PR reps around. Good stuff.

Aren't you guys getting bored yet? It's like Groundhog Day poking my head back into this thread after more than a month off.

Nope - as long as the feedlotters spread bovine droppings, I'll be there to correct them. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on November 23, 2013, 09:30:17 PM
Nope - as long as the feedlotters spread bovine droppings, I'll be there to correct them. :)

I just corrected you on another thread.  You are so welcome.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on November 23, 2013, 09:34:18 PM
Steve works for a company that has pretty much the worst PR reps around. Good stuff.

Aren't you guys getting bored yet? It's like Groundhog Day poking my head back into this thread after more than a month off.

The worst?  You are being too nice to them..lol.  Unfortunately, the ground troops are getting the shaft.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on November 23, 2013, 10:06:13 PM
I also appreciate where you (guys) are coming from pointing at urban development as well as other industries decimating habitat and eliminating salmon spawing streams completely. There will never be any comparison between the damage a salmon farm COULD do with what has already taken place. There is no denying that.

Well, according to activists this damage you talk about is already going on; however, they were not able to demonstrate that salmon farms are the environmental Armageddon during the inquiry.  If there can "never be any comparison" then which local runs have been decimated by salmon farms?  If you read the Cohen Final Report you will notice that Justice Cohen put all these factors that can potentially impact Fraser Sockeye into perspective, but apparently you have crystal ball that says that damage from a salmon farm will do more damage than what other factors have done or will do.

Have you ever taken a trip to other areas of the Fraser Watershed outside of the Lower Mainland?  I have.  It is a regular part of my job.  Try comparing the present day shorelines of Shuswap and Mara lakes to what they looked like 30 or 40 years ago and see how fish habitat in many area is now replaced by sandy beaches and grounding docks.  Check out what past exploitation rates were like for commercial fisheries (mixed stock) in this province.  What was the return of Upper Adams Sockeye like in 2004 after years of rebuilding?  Lastly, you also have to consider that fish species like Fraser Sockeye can have a very complex life history.  Potential marine impacts (i.e. aquaculture) are just one factor within that life history that includes many other areas for potential mortality.  Environmental conditions in the Fraser, as discussed by Scott Hinch during the inquiry, were clearly lost upon you as you read the report. 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on November 24, 2013, 09:57:11 AM
Well, according to activists this damage you talk about is already going on; however, they were not able to demonstrate that salmon farms are the environmental Armageddon during the inquiry.  If there can "never be any comparison" then which local runs have been decimated by salmon farms?  If you read the Cohen Final Report you will notice that Justice Cohen put all these factors that can potentially impact Fraser Sockeye into perspective, but apparently you have crystal ball that says that damage from a salmon farm will do more damage than what other factors have done or will do.

Have you ever taken a trip to other areas of the Fraser Watershed outside of the Lower Mainland?  I have.  It is a regular part of my job.  Try comparing the present day shorelines of Shuswap and Mara lakes to what they looked like 30 or 40 years ago and see how fish habitat in many area is now replaced by sandy beaches and grounding docks.  Check out what past exploitation rates were like for commercial fisheries (mixed stock) in this province.  What was the return of Upper Adams Sockeye like in 2004 after years of rebuilding?  Lastly, you also have to consider that fish species like Fraser Sockeye can have a very complex life history.  Potential marine impacts (i.e. aquaculture) are just one factor within that life history that includes many other areas for potential mortality.  Environmental conditions in the Fraser, as discussed by Scott Hinch during the inquiry, were clearly lost upon you as you read the report. 


thats not what I'm saying at all. I thought it made perfect sense.  I am saying that the damage done by other industries is worse than anything a farm could do..... that the worst a farm could do, would be relatively small compared to another industry.

Its also logistically easier in my eyes to remove a fish pen, as compared to a shipping port.

I'm not from the lower mainland and have been lucky, and old enough to see most of the province, repeatedly.  I've seen systems bounce back and others continue to suffer.  What I am seeing, is a push to move back to better days and healthier systems.

I'm pretty sure every small flow in the lower mainland has suffered from industry and urban development. Almost every one of them has a hatchery.
See to try and make my point yet again, the farms can be taken out of the water. to me that makes sense.

I also have never spoken about sockeye in particular. I have also not said farms are the sole reason for salmon stock problems.  Just the potential of virus mutation between atlantics and pacifics and what the potential consequences of having farms dropping crap and drugs into currents.
 in PRISTINE oceans.... with your long winded posts it's suprising your not even reading what I'm typing.

The information regarding viruses was contradictory and needed a lot of reading. If other parts of the world are having issues and culls, it's always a possibility that it can happen here.  Regardless of having the highest standards.
 
I read an article that I think was turned into a documentary about the sockeye return of 2011 and it being the result of a volcanic eruption in alaska feeding all the zooplankton.  So ya, I agree, things go in cycles.

None of that information I read was lost on me. You can't see the forest through the trees.
Open pens don't need to be a 'smoking gun' to be a problem.  Part of an old job I had was investigating accidents in the workplace.  If a risk could be eliminated through engineering, it's what was always done.

 
....  I do not really care if BC fish farmers decide to go close containment.

There is no point continuing this conversation.


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 24, 2013, 06:53:48 PM
I just corrected you on another thread.  You are so welcome.

Oh thank you, grand Master of semantics and $50 words. You see, I'm just another ignorant redneck, not worthy of sharing the world's air with you.( Sarcasm before your knickers get all knotted up) ;)
 Um, my parents were poor fishing folks of the maritime variety. As soon as I was old enough, I was out working to help support our rather modest existence. There wasn't any money for school beyond what basics I had by grade 9 - then it was out to work, either on a family boat or at a fish plant. In my generation and where I came from, there might have been a half dozen who's parents could afford to send their children off to higher learning institutions. I'm happy your family had the resources to do that for you. Smug commentary aside, I think while you may indeed be quite intelligent, it's too bad you need to constantly talk down to people who don't espouse your point of view - yes, before you say it, I do as well, but mostly with  farmfisherbawb who's posts are all ridiculously self serving industry propaganda links. Carry on!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on November 26, 2013, 10:39:34 PM

thats not what I'm saying at all. I thought it made perfect sense.  I am saying that the damage done by other industries is worse than anything a farm could do..... that the worst a farm could do, would be relatively small compared to another industry.

I read what you say again and I see what you were trying to say.  My apologies this time.

Quote
I'm not from the lower mainland and have been lucky, and old enough to see most of the province, repeatedly.  I've seen systems bounce back and others continue to suffer.  What I am seeing, is a push to move back to better days and healthier systems.

You are right...There is a push to move back to better days and healthier systems.  Now if we can rid ourselves of Harper and get back to a Fisheries Act that actually does what it is supposed that would be even better.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on November 26, 2013, 11:10:31 PM
Oh thank you, grand Master of semantics and $50 words. You see, I'm just another ignorant redneck, not worthy of sharing the world's air with you.( Sarcasm before your knickers get all knotted up) ;)
 Um, my parents were poor fishing folks of the maritime variety. As soon as I was old enough, I was out working to help support our rather modest existence. There wasn't any money for school beyond what basics I had by grade 9 - then it was out to work, either on a family boat or at a fish plant. In my generation and where I came from, there might have been a half dozen who's parents could afford to send their children off to higher learning institutions. I'm happy your family had the resources to do that for you. Smug commentary aside, I think while you may indeed be quite intelligent, it's too bad you need to constantly talk down to people who don't espouse your point of view - yes, before you say it, I do as well, but mostly with  farmfisherbawb who's posts are all ridiculously self serving industry propaganda links. Carry on!

Hmmm....so it is ok for you to be "correcting" people, but if someone notices something you posted that is not correct you believe they are talking down to you.  Sounds fair...lol.  Seems like you were talking down to people like me in the following statement: 

Nope - as long as the feedlotters spread bovine droppings, I'll be there to correct them.

But that's ok....because you are just a poor, disadvantaged Maritimer who is constantly picked on by people like me.  That is an excuse for the comments you make?  I should really be cutting you some slack?  Really??  Let me tell you this...You don't know me or what I did to get to where I am at today so be careful of about what you assume.



.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 28, 2013, 06:25:34 AM
Hmmm....so it is ok for you to be "correcting" people, but if someone notices something you posted that is not correct you believe they are talking down to you.  Sounds fair...lol.  Seems like you were talking down to people like me in the following statement: 

Nope - as long as the feedlotters spread bovine droppings, I'll be there to correct them.

But that's ok....because you are just a poor, disadvantaged Maritimer who is constantly picked on by people like me.  That is an excuse for the comments you make?  I should really be cutting you some slack?  Really??  Let me tell you this...You don't know me or what I did to get to where I am at today so be careful of about what you assume.



.

So - ya wanna go grab a coffee sometime? I'll buy. You can even have the grande  ;D I'm pretty open about who and what I am, you - not so much.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on November 28, 2013, 04:09:59 PM
He thinks he is someone important. Like a sardine crammed in his own little cubicle.  ::)
Isn't it past your bedtime dave?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 29, 2013, 08:05:48 AM
http://www.mainstream-group.com/portal/wps/wcm/connect/msca-content-en/mainstream-canada/news/conflict-and-criticism/blogger+errs+again+in+claims+about+salmon+farms+and+compensation
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 29, 2013, 11:40:18 AM
Alaska's #1 priority?
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/blog/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on November 29, 2013, 11:54:21 PM
So - ya wanna go grab a coffee sometime? I'll buy. You can even have the grande  ;D I'm pretty open about who and what I am, you - not so much.

I think you are in need of companionship.  Sorry, this is the wrong site for that.  Better try this site:

http://www.eharmony.ca/

There you can open up about yourself to someone as much as you want without coming across as desperate for attention here.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on November 30, 2013, 06:20:44 AM
I think you are in need of companionship.  Sorry, this is the wrong site for that.  Better try this site:

http://www.eharmony.ca/

There you can open up about yourself to someone as much as you want without coming across as desperate for attention here.  Good luck.

Run out of mud so you sling the "he must be gay" card? Wow - really? That's pretty pathetic Steve and a sad commentary on you, not me. I had a gay family member that put up with that kind of garbage throughout the time he was here and ended up taking his life. You have no idea how that affected his immediate family and those around him or you wouldn't reach into the toilet for that turd. I feel a mixture of sorrow and disgust for you and your need to display your (now) obviously bigoted and usually elitist foolishness as well as that massive ego. What's next Steve? Are you going to slur people because of gender or race? If you don't like others POV, that's just too bad, because we'll always be here to raise concerns and question glaring holes in the feedlot propaganda stream and those that enable it. I'm not going anywhere, neither are the others that don't buy into your philosophy.





Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on November 30, 2013, 08:19:48 AM
.........cue the violins....................again.........
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 30, 2013, 09:42:15 AM
Run out of mud so you sling the "he must be gay" card? Wow - really?
Wow there he goes, mis reading what was said again. No wonder it is so hard for you to get the facts straight NB. Great attempt on self serving story telling how ever. :)
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/01/18/alexandra-mortons-furunculosis-fable/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on November 30, 2013, 02:16:38 PM
wow.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on November 30, 2013, 02:53:12 PM
I could care less about Morton. You and Davey however must have nightmares about her. All consuming...lol.
I was wondering who authored your above link, bawb, until I came across this...

"Who we are.
We are people who work in aquaculture, and who also do not. We are interested in science, particularly the science of salmon farming, and want to share our passion with others.
We choose to remain anonymous because we do not wish to open our personal lives up to attack, and a small group of anti-salmon farming activists have shown they are willing to use nasty and personal attacks to try and shame and intimidate people who support salmon farming."

Ahahahahahah!!  "anonymous", bawb. As far as I'm concerned you and Davey both suffer from the same disease, "foot in mouth".


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 30, 2013, 03:30:30 PM
I could care less about Morton. You and Davey however must have nightmares about her. All consuming...lol.
I was wondering who authored your above link, bawb, until I came across this...

"Who we are.
We are people who work in aquaculture, and who also do not. We are interested in science, particularly the science of salmon farming, and want to share our passion with others.
We choose to remain anonymous because we do not wish to open our personal lives up to attack, and a small group of anti-salmon farming activists have shown they are willing to use nasty and personal attacks to try and shame and intimidate people who support salmon farming."

Ahahahahahah!!  "anonymous", bawb. As far as I'm concerned you and Davey both suffer from the same disease, "foot in mouth".
Grasping for straws only dilutes a good debate MS. Please try a bit harder on your next post. :)
http://fairquestions.typepad.com/rethink_campaigns/2011/02/introduction.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on November 30, 2013, 04:50:41 PM
At least that one has an author, bawb. Not a Suzuki fan either. Also not an environmentalist (that's laughable).
PS....who is MS?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on November 30, 2013, 04:53:47 PM
Bawb sounds like he hit a sore spot with you? Cook up some of that dirty fish and put on avideo (nothing with Morton in it) pour a tall one and relax.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on November 30, 2013, 05:13:20 PM
If you are reffering to me TB, try to follow along.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 30, 2013, 05:23:01 PM
If you are reffering to me TB, try to follow along.
Perhaps you can relax and smell the fishy money for a moment :)
http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/07/02/fp-letters-money-trail-gets-fishy/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on November 30, 2013, 05:56:10 PM
More Morton drivel by Vivian Krause. You having nightmares about her when yur awake now, bawb? Try the bong for self medication. I'm sure Morton does
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 30, 2013, 06:04:49 PM
More Morton drivel by Vivian Krause. You having nightmares about her when yur awake now, bawb? Try the bong for self medication. I'm sure Morton does
Please feel free to add to the debate by posting facts that have not already been debunked. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on November 30, 2013, 06:38:40 PM
Facts about what, bawb?  Are you babbling about Morton again? For the hard of comprehending, that means "grasping mentally", bawb, I could care less about Morton or tree huggers. You didn't self medicate did you?
Here is a link worth watching.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/coachs-corner/don-cherry-wants-coach-s-corner-to-remain-status-quo-1.2446703
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on November 30, 2013, 06:43:13 PM
Please feel free to add to the debate by posting facts that have not already been debunked. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on November 30, 2013, 10:12:34 PM
I wonder what every ones opinion of Brian Riddell President and CEO of the Pacific Salmon Foundation?

http://ohboy.ca/secretscience/index.php/dr-brian-riddell/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on December 01, 2013, 04:56:09 PM
IMO, one of the best fish scientists on the planet.  He was my section head for a while and was considered by his peers as brilliant.
He is far more valuable to the fishery resource in his present position than he was as a highly esteemed DFO scientist.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on December 01, 2013, 05:11:18 PM
I wonder what every ones opinion of Brian Riddell President and CEO of the Pacific Salmon Foundation?

http://ohboy.ca/secretscience/index.php/dr-brian-riddell/

Very very intelligent man. Used to also work in his group until he did the smart thing and jumped ship. His talk on the sea lice issue in the Broughton that he gave in 2009 was awesome. Spoiler alert: his work suggested poor science by the sea lice folks (AlMo et al).
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 01, 2013, 06:12:58 PM
Then you must be aware of this article...

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/06/23/fp-letters-junk-journalism/

"We are writing this letter together to put an end to the numerous attempts to fabricate scientific discord associated with the affects of aquaculture on wild Pacific salmon. The Canadian public will only benefit from abundant wild salmon and aquaculture if they have accurate information. Mr. Corcoran’s exaggerations and misinformation are more damaging to the fish farm industry than the science he lashes out at in his column.

Every new industry matures as it develops and aquaculture does represent potential value to our coastal communities. But it must not jeopardize our wild Pacific salmon. Indeed, nowhere else in the world has open-net pen aquaculture existed with such an abundance of wild salmon, as present in British Columbia. To ensure wild Pacific salmon are sustained the ecological footprint of fish farming must meet the biological requirements of wild salmon. Mr. Corcoran seems to want to place the blame for the current situation on activists, but his conclusions are inaccurate and more fishy than any of the science he attempts to discredit.

For the record, first and foremost the claim that sea lice from fish farms in British Columbia were contaminating wild pink salmon is true. Without treatment for sea lice, the farms in the Broughton Archipelago were proven to be the major source of lice infecting juvenile pink salmon. The treatment of lice on farmed salmon, a plan developed through collaborative research in the archipelago, successfully reduced infection and proved that the farms were the primary source of infection. There really is no debate on this point.

Mr. Corcoran says, The great salmon farming scare proved to be a false alarm. This is incorrect. Declines in levels of sea lice are the result of a management (treatment) plan enacted in the Broughton Archipelago since 2007. Implementation of that plan is consistent with improved returns of pink salmon to the Broughton Archipelago in 2009.

Mr. Corcoran employs deliberately inflammatory language. As the primary author (Riddell) of the federal fisheries article rebutting the December 2007 extinction prediction article in Science, I have never referred to flawed science, cherry-picked data, or fudging the data. To infer attribution of these terms to me (Riddell) is totally inappropriate.

To his credit Mr. Corcoran has retained some important messages. I (Riddell) am concerned about the salmon farming experience around the world and I do question how environmentally justifiable open-net pen salmon farms are. Mr. Corcoran quotes Dr. Ben Koop, who rightly says science takes a lot of different perspectives and [then] combines and debates. This is exactly what has been occurring on the West Coast of Canada vis-a-vis aquaculture. We, as a community of scientists, acted and initiated the science that triggered management that has temporarily reduced sea lice. We did not wait to see if the extinction prediction was true or false. We are aware of strong indications worldwide that the current treatment measures may fail if or when the lice become drug-resistant. Therefore, the people involved must continue to develop solutions of which closed containment seems to be an increasingly attractive option."

 Dr. Brian E Riddell, CEO, Pacific Salmon Foundation. Alexandra Morton, executive director, Raincoast Research Society
 
Notice this is co-authored by A. Morton and Riddell refered to Morton in the video.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 01, 2013, 06:50:20 PM
http://fairquestions.typepad.com/rethink_campaigns/2010/12/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 01, 2013, 07:27:44 PM
"I have donated to Dr. Morton's cause witch makes me fell like I am helping the cause of saving our salmon. I have not received any tax receipts. I was told however that the money goes to educating the public. I think there is no way Dr. Morton will say and do what ever it takes to continue generating profits. Dr. Morton is the most honest person I know."

Your words bawb.....lol x 10....and you wanna be my latex salesman.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 01, 2013, 08:26:11 PM
You will simply just have to excuse me for no longer being a loyal listener on your side of the fence. Junk science for donations and why. :)
http://opinion.financialpost.com/2011/06/13/terence-corcoran-lipstick-apples-sperm-counts/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on December 01, 2013, 08:58:19 PM
Then you must be aware of this article...

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/06/23/fp-letters-junk-journalism/



Mr. Corcoran employs deliberately inflammatory language. As the primary author (Riddell) of the federal fisheries article rebutting the December 2007 extinction prediction article in Science, I have never referred to flawed science, cherry-picked data, or fudging the data. To infer attribution of these terms to me (Riddell) is totally inappropriate.


Hmmm, ok my bad I guess. He gave a talk "rebutting the December 2007 extinction prediction", and here is the link to his written comment on the same topic, the 2007 Krkosek et al Science paper. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/322/5909/1790.2.full.pdf
It's a short read. This is pulled directly from the text.

"Krkošek et al. overstated the risks to wild pink salmon from sea lice and salmon farming. Furthermore, their predictions are inconsistent with recent observations of pink salmon returns to the Broughton Archipelago. Their alarming statements of extinction of pink salmon in the BA are only possible with highly selective use of the available data and extrapolation of their results to all pink salmon in the BA."

Riddell was the lead author. I greatly respect his opinions and his work.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on December 01, 2013, 08:59:07 PM
.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 01, 2013, 09:31:00 PM
Hmmm, ok my bad I guess. He gave a talk "rebutting the December 2007 extinction prediction", and here is the link to his written comment on the same topic, the 2007 Krkosek et al Science paper. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/322/5909/1790.2.full.pdf
It's a short read. This is pulled directly from the text.

"Krkošek et al. overstated the risks to wild pink salmon from sea lice and salmon farming. Furthermore, their predictions are inconsistent with recent observations of pink salmon returns to the Broughton Archipelago. Their alarming statements of extinction of pink salmon in the BA are only possible with highly selective use of the available data and extrapolation of their results to all pink salmon in the BA."

Riddell was the lead author. I greatly respect his opinions and his work.

Good stuff dnibbles. I really like this quote from Riddell...

"For the record, first and foremost the claim that sea lice from fish farms in British Columbia were contaminating wild pink salmon is true. Without treatment for sea lice, the farms in the Broughton Archipelago were proven to be the major source of lice infecting juvenile pink salmon. The treatment of lice on farmed salmon, a plan developed through collaborative research in the archipelago, successfully reduced infection and proved that the farms were the primary source of infection. There really is no debate on this point."

Do we know each other?  ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on December 01, 2013, 11:07:13 PM
Run out of mud so you sling the "he must be gay" card? Wow - really? That's pretty pathetic Steve and a sad commentary on you, not me. I had a gay family member that put up with that kind of garbage throughout the time he was here and ended up taking his life. You have no idea how that affected his immediate family and those around him or you wouldn't reach into the toilet for that turd. I feel a mixture of sorrow and disgust for you and your need to display your (now) obviously bigoted and usually elitist foolishness as well as that massive ego. What's next Steve? Are you going to slur people because of gender or race? If you don't like others POV, that's just too bad, because we'll always be here to raise concerns and question glaring holes in the feedlot propaganda stream and those that enable it. I'm not going anywhere, neither are the others that don't buy into your philosophy.

Haven't you figured out by now that if you act like a fool you will be treated like one?  My comments to you have nothing to do with not wanting to hear other peoples' POV.  As for raising concerns and questions that is laughable because you seem more interested in being a clown than being genuinely interested in the topic.  What is sad is that you constantly drag up some sympathetic, heart-wrenching story to justify your rude behaviour on this board.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 02, 2013, 06:45:07 AM
http://www.fda.gov/AdvisoryCommittees/CommitteesMeetingMaterials/VeterinaryMedicineAdvisoryCommittee/ucm222635.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 02, 2013, 06:53:31 AM
"Throughout the early 1900�s there were many attempts to introduce Atlantic salmon into Pacific waters, particularly British Columbia and Washington State. These attempts were unsuccessful in spite of the release of millions of eggs and juveniles (MacCrimmon and Gots, 1979). Self-sustaining introductions of Atlantic salmon have largely failed even in waters where the species naturally existed such as the Great Lakes where they were extirpated, however, a landlocked self-sustaining population exists in New Zealand. Reasons for unsuccessful establishment in the Pacific include competing healthy Pacific salmon populations at the time of introduction, and use of eggs or juveniles (that had to overcome obstacles in migration, the open ocean environment and spawning), instead of more mature adults (such as the ones escaping from aquaculture net cages). For a good historical review of Atlantic salmon introductions, see Nash and Waknitz, 2003."
http://fwcb.cfans.umn.edu/courses/nresexotics3002/GradPages/AtlanticSalmon/Atlantic_Salmon_History.htm

History has no value if we can not learn from it. :)

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on December 02, 2013, 08:51:01 AM
Then you must be aware of this article...

......To his credit Mr. Corcoran has retained some important messages. I (Riddell) am concerned about the salmon farming experience around the world and I do question how environmentally justifiable open-net pen salmon farms are. Mr. Corcoran quotes Dr. Ben Koop, who rightly says science takes a lot of different perspectives and [then] combines and debates. This is exactly what has been occurring on the West Coast of Canada vis-a-vis aquaculture. We, as a community of scientists, acted and initiated the science that triggered management that has temporarily reduced sea lice.......

 Dr. Brian E Riddell, CEO, Pacific Salmon Foundation. Alexandra Morton, executive director, Raincoast Research Society

 
Notice this is co-authored by A. Morton and Riddell refered to Morton in the video.

What isn't mentioned in that letter "co-authored by A. Morton" is the fact that the action taken to manage the lice was strongly opposed by Morton and in fact, the court challenge she initiated that resulted in management of BC salmon farms being transferred to DFO was an attempt by her to block the collaborative action by that community of scientists and the fish farms to find a solution to the lice problem:

"The reason I went to court started with a deal between Marine Harvest and a coalition of enviros I was part of. To allow Marine Harvest to fallow one route of Broughton every spring Marine Harvest said their farms and to be 2-3 times bigger. The enviros were good with that, but I wasn't because as part of my sea lice research I examined thousands of juvenile salmon (live) as they approached and passed the fish farms in Broughton. Sea lice is a numbers game. They are allowed only a few live per fish, but if they triple the number of fish of course the lice numbers increase. SO I left the coalition and found a lawyer to get an injunction and he said "you know what this whole thing is not legal" they are not farms and should not be managed by the province who have no responsibility to the wild fish. Actually the whole concept of fish farming in net pens runs counter to the Constitution of Canada because no one is allowed to privatize ocean spaces or own fish in the marine waters..... However, the feds are as bad as the province and with Harper hacking away at the Fisheries Act, there really is no progress except that the Broughton sites remain in their original size, most are expired because First Nations refuse to OK their renewal." http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/showthread.php?19113-What-can-WE-do-to-help-save-the-salmon&p=229393#post229393

Fortunately, the bulk of the approvals required for the program had been obtained from the province prior to the court removing from them the authority and it was able to proceed, albeit at a reduced level from what had originally been planned, and as Riddell points out, it was successful.

This appears to support the point that Corcoran was making that many activists are less interested in finding solutions than they are in raising money and as is apparent from recent discussions here many farm opponents are much more interested in name calling, personal attacks and arguing than they are in seeing progress made in addressing issues affecting salmon farming.


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 02, 2013, 11:47:58 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how Morton gets under your skins. This Riddell article and video was not about Morton. I pointed out that Morton had co-authored it to see what kind of reaction it would get seeing that Riddell is well respected.
Riddell and Morton obviously have a working relationship that is amicable as evidenced in this article and her presence in the video. So if you are all so anti Morton and have nothing but good things to say about Mr. Riddell, why not ask him?
Far more important to me is his quote:

"For the record, first and foremost the claim that sea lice from fish farms in British Columbia were contaminating wild pink salmon is true. Without treatment for sea lice, the farms in the Broughton Archipelago were proven to be the major source of lice infecting juvenile pink salmon. The treatment of lice on farmed salmon, a plan developed through collaborative research in the archipelago, successfully reduced infection and proved that the farms were the primary source of infection. There really is no debate on this point."
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on December 02, 2013, 12:56:41 PM
I pointed out that Morton had co-authored it..........

And I pointed out why including Morton's signature on the letter on that particular subject was disingenuous regardless of Dr. Riddell's motives for doing so. What's the problem?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 02, 2013, 01:55:23 PM
So according to you, Riddell had "motives" for allowing Mortons signature....lol...it  all sounds so secretive and possibly illegal. I don't pay much attention to greenies. So I don't have a problem....you are the one who is "Mortonized".
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on December 02, 2013, 02:26:38 PM
Actually, we all, or at least almost all of us, have a motive for everything we do. "Motive" is defined as a reason for doing something and almost all of us don't act without some sort of motive. In fact, I'd venture to suggest that those who act without motive do so because they haven't got the mental capacity to form one.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on December 02, 2013, 04:22:25 PM
Astrodon. Motivated one though. ::)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 02, 2013, 06:00:58 PM
So according to you, Riddell had "reasons" for allowing Mortons signature....lol...it  all sounds so secretive and possibly illegal. I don't pay much attention to greenies. So I don't have a problem....you are the one who is "Mortonized". Is that better?   ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: dnibbles on December 02, 2013, 06:33:55 PM
Good stuff dnibbles. I really like this quote from Riddell...

"For the record, first and foremost the claim that sea lice from fish farms in British Columbia were contaminating wild pink salmon is true. Without treatment for sea lice, the farms in the Broughton Archipelago were proven to be the major source of lice infecting juvenile pink salmon. The treatment of lice on farmed salmon, a plan developed through collaborative research in the archipelago, successfully reduced infection and proved that the farms were the primary source of infection. There really is no debate on this point."

Do we know each other?  ;)

Hmmm, not sure if we know each other. Given the timing and frequency of your posts, you may be recently retired? Anyways, I think we are in complete agreement on Riddell and his work. At first glance those two quotes may be a little difficult to reconcile, but Riddell is clear in that he is referring to the vector of infection, and not speculating on potential impacts (e.g. extinction within 4 generations).

Anyways, I'm out of this thread, not sure how I ended up back in this vortex of repetition. Thanks for the Riddell video, I guess it breathed a little new life into a very stale topic lol.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 02, 2013, 06:46:57 PM
http://www.creativesalmon.com/_docs/Creative-Salmon-Achieves-Organic-Certification.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on December 02, 2013, 10:09:02 PM
So according to you, Riddell had "reasons" for allowing Mortons signature....lol...it  all sounds so secretive and possibly illegal. I don't pay much attention to greenies. So I don't have a problem....you are the one who is "Mortonized". Is that better?   ;D

Not really. It isn't nearly as difficult as you seem to be finding it.

According to me, Riddell had motives (or reasons; suit yourself), not "motives" or "reasons".

I have to confess that I don't understand why you would think either sounds so secretive and possibly illegal but to each his own.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 02, 2013, 10:13:34 PM
It was sarcasm you boring dummy. Are you a steve dupe?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on December 02, 2013, 11:06:17 PM
Boring or not, I'm just keeping your words out of my mouth.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 02, 2013, 11:39:10 PM
Now I see what dnibbles was refferring to. WHOOPS!...referring to." Anyways, I'm out of this thread, not sure how I ended up back in this vortex of repetition."
I see you made a lot of friends over at SFBC....continue the trend.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on December 03, 2013, 08:57:25 AM
....I see you made a lot of friends over at SFBC....continue the trend.

You appear to be doing the same thing here. Difference is that I don't get myself booted out nor do I need to take gratuitous shots at other people in the process.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 03, 2013, 11:07:34 AM
35 posts and haven't been booted out yet, what do you mean "Difference is that I don't get myself booted out"?
As far as your tenure at SFBC you had the perfect chance to debate Morton and chickened out. Instead preferring to attempt to dazzle with words like you do here. Carry on.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 03, 2013, 06:26:08 PM
Haven't you figured out by now that if you act like a fool you will be treated like one?  My comments to you have nothing to do with not wanting to hear other peoples' POV.  As for raising concerns and questions that is laughable because you seem more interested in being a clown than being genuinely interested in the topic.  What is sad is that you constantly drag up some sympathetic, heart-wrenching story to justify your rude behaviour on this board.


Sorry I'm in mourning. They killed off Brian the dog on Family Guy...... ;D



Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 04, 2013, 11:10:10 PM

Sorry I'm in mourning. They killed off Brian on Family Guy...... ;D


Good one....lol
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 04, 2013, 11:22:15 PM


Good one....lol
Have you ever learned off a person that always agreed with you?  :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 04, 2013, 11:38:00 PM
Have you ever learned off a person that always agreed with you?  :)

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://thefeministwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/do-you-speak-english1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thefeministwire.com/2012/03/rick-santorum-to-puerto-rico-speak-english/&h=286&w=450&sz=23&tbnid=hnL330BnfQ1NxM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=142&zoom=1&usg=__zhMf8R3ABwiJDErnX1St53tflko=&docid=z1stQGKU3ppfFM&sa=X&ei=oCygUqT3C4bioASTj4DIBA&sqi=2&ved=0CHkQ9QEwBw
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 05, 2013, 12:07:59 AM
Sorry, I forgot that Doc Morton's obedient listeners do not answer questions lol. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 05, 2013, 12:20:02 AM
Sorry, I forgot that Doc Morton's obedient listeners do not answer questions lol. :)


Fisherbob
Sr. Member
****
Re: Salmon Confidential

« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2013, 09:03:52 AM »

ReplyQuote
Quote from: troutbreath on March 13, 2013, 08:18:48 AM

Thats positive thinking Fisherbob. :) I doubt she needs to rip people off in an attempt to save salmon.
The pro farm group are expierencing Mortonization.


Thank you Troutbreath. Every thing that Dr. Morton predicted has come to be true. I am sure we can get more donations her way if we bang the table louder and make more noise. And AF is right. I should not be reading any of the feedlot news. It gave me to much to think a out.

LOL X 100...into the firewater again bawb?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 05, 2013, 10:28:03 AM
Did you say something MB??  Speak up next time and try to make at least a bit of sense. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: moosebreath on December 05, 2013, 10:41:39 AM
Your quote flip flop bawb. How's the hangover?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 06, 2013, 04:38:08 PM
http://aquaculture.ca/email/2013.10/12-02.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on December 07, 2013, 06:03:43 PM
Bawbby your on their mailing list I guess? From the fry pan into the fire. You shovelling them cash off the back of the pick up too. Hope not, might be another disappointment hug the bottle moment.

Sheri Beaulieu (thanks for the cash bawb)

Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance (CAIA)

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 08, 2013, 01:00:37 PM
Bawbby your on their mailing list I guess? From the fry pan into the fire. You shovelling them cash off the back of the pick up too. Hope not, might be another disappointment hug the bottle moment.

Sheri Beaulieu (thanks for the cash bawb)

Canadian Aquaculture Industry Alliance (CAIA)


Can't find a decent charity to donate to Farmfisher Bawb Loblaw? I thought the taxpayer largesse was sufficient, but I guess there's need for more to cover the political donations.....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 10, 2013, 07:20:30 AM
To bad Doc Morton did not think of this :)

http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=661
"However, we were smart enough to save all the Cohen documents on our own website. So – anti-salmon farming activists – feel free to visit our website for all your Cohen Commission needs, and please drop by our myth vs FACT section while you’re there! Here’s the link: http://farmfreshsalmon.org/cohen-commission-0"
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on December 10, 2013, 07:41:59 AM
If your comment makes you look like a dumb-dumb, we will be happy to leave your comment available for others to see.

http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?page_id=213
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 10, 2013, 10:00:04 AM
If your comment makes you look like a dumb-dumb, we will be happy to leave your comment available for others to see.

http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?page_id=213
Doc Morton is no differnt. LOL. :) she is the biggest muzler of the all.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on December 10, 2013, 10:59:01 AM
If your comment makes you look like a dumb-dumb, we will be happy to leave your comment available for others to see.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 10, 2013, 05:30:29 PM
To bad Doc Morton did not think of this :)

http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=661
"However, we were smart enough to save all the Cohen documents on our own website. So – anti-salmon farming activists – feel free to visit our website for all your Cohen Commission needs, and please drop by our myth vs FACT section while you’re there! Here’s the link: http://farmfreshsalmon.org/cohen-commission-0"
:)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 12, 2013, 09:50:09 AM
So Farmfisher Bawb Loblaw ( kinda has nice ring to it for the links) - How much have you donated to the feedlots?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on December 12, 2013, 10:32:01 PM
Lawblawb ?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 13, 2013, 05:18:32 AM
Lawblawb ?

Close - blah blah blah   ;D ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 13, 2013, 11:43:08 AM
Looks like Doc Morton has her own agenda again.
http://www.mainstream-group.com/portal/wps/wcm/connect/msca-content-en/mainstream-canada/news/conflict-and-criticism/critic+spins+tale+about+isa+virus+but+leaves+out+significant+facts
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on December 13, 2013, 11:52:08 AM
Bawb if you want some foreigners telling you "facts" about their polluting ways great. Just maybe ,maybe try not to share this drivel please.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on December 13, 2013, 12:19:17 PM
Bawb if you want some foreigners telling you "facts" about their polluting ways great. Just maybe ,maybe try not to share this drivel please.
Grant Warkentin is hardly a foreigner, he comes from Chilliwack  ;)  Fisherbob, please continue posting this information so both sides are represented.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 13, 2013, 01:03:53 PM
Bawb if you want some foreigners telling you "facts" about their polluting ways great. Just maybe ,maybe try not to share this drivel please.
Worried about your stand? I know how it feels after listening to an activist that never gets it right. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on December 13, 2013, 08:47:32 PM
Worried about your stand? I know how it feels after listening to an activist that never gets it right. :)

Worried about my stand? :-\
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 14, 2013, 09:02:42 AM
Bawb if you want some foreigners telling you "facts" about their polluting ways great. Just maybe ,maybe try not to share this drivel please.


Let me clarify for Bawb Loblaw - your "links" are nothing but propaganda. Self serving variety. They all come from an industry that's proven - time and time again- they'd pervert the truth to save their own skins. They suck taxpayer's money when things don't work out. They have no more credibility than Rob Ford.
Cripes, even Dave admits they're buffoons on the east coast  ( probably even sidestep steve )- but you figure we can trust them here. Wake up from the stupor.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 14, 2013, 09:37:00 AM
Please feel free to post the scientific facts that support your feelings NB. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 14, 2013, 09:45:27 AM
Looks like Alaska is fedup with propaganda also MB. :)

"Murkowski, who described third-party groups as "questionable" and "controversial," praised the move and insisted that Alaska can certify its own sustainability, without any third party verification. - See more at: http://www.seafoodsource.com/en/news/environment-sustainability/24891-us-affirms-no-need-for-third-party-certification#sthash.TmeMP3og.dpuf "

http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/blog/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 15, 2013, 07:06:32 AM
Please feel free to post the scientific facts that support your feelings NB. :)


Not the pseudo schtick that your feedlot buddies feed you by the shovel FarmfissureBawb Loblaw?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 15, 2013, 07:11:46 AM
Grant Warkentin is hardly a foreigner, he comes from Chilliwack  ;)  Fisherbob, please continue posting this information so both sides are represented.

Grant Warkentin is a nothing more than a paid feedlot shill Dave. A talking head, a professional mouthpiece, parroting the same tired lines. I took the time to look at some of the sliced bologna and bovine droppings the palooka writes for his job at mainstream. A sellout.
http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/opinion/letters/enough-of-the-scary-salmon-tales-1.429953

and a well put rebuttal
http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/opinion/letters/civility-is-lost-when-attacks-get-personal-1.427535

Open? Hilarious stuff!

http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/sites/default/files/files/23%20Rulling%20BCSFA%20letter%203.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on December 15, 2013, 09:23:50 AM
Dave's buddy? Anyway he's a paid shill for the bunch of foreigners who own and run Mainstream. He don't run anything but his mouth :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 15, 2013, 09:31:19 AM
Dave's buddy? Anyway he's a paid shill for the bunch of foreigners who own and run Mainstream. He don't run anything but his mouth :)

Selling out our heritage for a few bucks TB. But if you repeat the same BS over and over again.......
You become Bawb Loblaw! ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: mr.pink on December 15, 2013, 10:16:22 AM
    http://www.change.org/petitions/restore-wild-salmon-ban-salmon-feedlots-in-bc   please sign,cheers.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 16, 2013, 08:01:32 AM
American born Doc Morton should have included salmon farming in the US as well. Since any one in the world can sign her petition, it looks more like a marketing campaign. :)

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/honesty_in_political_ads/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 16, 2013, 08:49:12 AM
American born Doc Morton should have included salmon farming in the US as well. Since any one in the world can sign her petition, it looks more like a marketing campaign. :)

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/honesty_in_political_ads/

Still got the big hate on for Americans Farmfisher Bawb Loblaw? But you adore the Norwegians?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 16, 2013, 08:57:20 AM
Still got the big hate on for Americans Farmfisher Bawb Loblaw? But you adore the Norwegians?
Unlike you, I listen to people that get it right these days. Let me shortend your post to three words NB. :). Blah blah blah.

http://www.bcsalmonfacts.ca/#!/fact/research
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on December 16, 2013, 09:16:59 AM
Unlike you, I listen to people that get it right these days.

http://www.bcsalmonfacts.ca/#!/fact/research
When Tony Farrell speaks, wise people listen.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 16, 2013, 01:00:02 PM
When Tony Farrell speaks, wise people listen.

And all the rest are buffoons?
Who signs his paycheque? ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on December 16, 2013, 03:05:04 PM
And all the rest are buffoons?
Who signs his paycheque? ;)
Well, he has made many people feel that way, including me.  He is really quite brilliant and does not suffer fools; a world class fishery scientist with questionable people skills …
As a university professor I suppose you and I are paying his salary, and I'm fine with my share :D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 16, 2013, 09:22:15 PM
Well, he has made many people feel that way, including me.  He is really quite brilliant and does not suffer fools; a world class fishery scientist with questionable people skills …
As a university professor I suppose you and I are paying his salary, and I'm fine with my share :D
So a Shoeswap Steve type huh? The world is running short of people with the rare hybrid of self styled intellectually arrogant. :o ;) Bookworm with very few social graces. ::) Sorry Dave, I don't suffer fools well either. ;D - I'm not inferring you in this case. More bawbish.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on December 16, 2013, 10:02:29 PM
chortle^  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 19, 2013, 06:51:23 AM
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2013/20131218_aquaculture.html#.UrI9egHoPpI.facebook
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 19, 2013, 08:01:38 PM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/12/19/junk-science-attack-on-processing-plant-gets-its-facts-totally-wrong/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on December 19, 2013, 11:23:09 PM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/12/19/junk-science-attack-on-processing-plant-gets-its-facts-totally-wrong/

From the authors of the study: "Marine salmon farms and their processing facilities can serve as sources of virulent fish pathogens; our study is the first to confirm the broadcast of a live fish pathogen from a farmed salmon processing facility into the marine waters of Canada’s Pacific coast.”

Fact is that this processing plant processes wild (Sockeye, Pink) and farmed salmon as well as shellfish and other finfish species (like sardines and herring). Not sure what this study shows because this facility is clearly not just a farmed salmon processing facility.  How did they break out what part was from farmed and what part was from wild fish?  What were the controls?  I would like to read this study more, but so far from the press release it looks pretty biased.  Sea lice can be brought back by migrating adult wild salmon on their way back to their natal areas.  Wild Sockeye salmon can carry IHNV and other pathogens (see Cohen Technical Report #1).  I agree with critics of this study that more than one processing plant should have been looked at in order to make it more meaningful.

Take a look at the products available from Walcan:
http://www.bcspecialtyfood.ca/company-details.php?companyID=145 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on December 20, 2013, 08:55:48 AM
This study certainly is a piece of work again by the usual suspects.  Did it really take a study to come the the conclusion?  Of course it was happening.  But the study, if was really targeting salmon farms, should of used a wild processing facility as a control and they did not for the obvious reasons.  They will find that the results are the same.  Given this and the fact that this has been happening(with wild fish processing) for about 100 years one has to wonder what the effect has been.  Maybe there is an effect.  I am not saying there isn't.  I am saying that the practice existed consistently for 70 or more years before salmon farming ever existed and it still exists today with commercial processing and sport fishing.  Who does not bleed there fish where they caught it in the river or in the chuck?  Salmon farmers are smart to take the precautionary approach and use filters to reduce/eliminate the potential risk if there is a risk.  Who is going to follow their example?

I am glad that this study was done because it shows the intentions of the researchers involved and it is a prime example of what the peer review process is capable of producing.  It certainly raises allot of questions.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on December 20, 2013, 04:31:50 PM
This study certainly is a piece of work again by the usual suspects. 
I am glad that this study was done because it shows the intentions of the researchers involved and it is a prime example of what the peer review process is capable of producing.  It certainly raises allot of questions.
Exactly aqua. Sadly, this latest by Volpe et al will be considered state of the art science by some, and especially so on other forums.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: StillAqua on December 21, 2013, 05:53:06 AM
I read the published paper in the journal and I think a lot of the criticism about it is unjustified and exaggerated. It's a simple little study (single sample), a "short communication", that simply identifies living sea lice (eggs and nauplii) being discharged at depth in the ocean from the fish processing plant as a potential issue. They know it was during a period of farmed Atlantic salmon processing because the DFO Scale Lab identified scales collected in the sample. Unlike meat processing plants that are required to discharge their effluent into the sewage system, fish processors can discharge directly to the ocean, and always have. I think they raise a valid concern that direct discharge, without effluent or sewage treatment, could be a vector for introducing infection agents back to the ecosystem and they should do further research and look at treating the effluent. Nothing earth shaking here....the only unexpected part of the results is that the filter screens that should remove lice components from the effluent seem to have failed (or aren't in place).

I think it highlights this ancient mindset that the ocean is our dumping ground and it doesn't matter what we discharge to it (human sewage, processing plant waste, agricultural runoff), it will be "consumed" by the ocean.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on December 21, 2013, 10:08:06 AM
This paper reads like a grade 7 science project. It is a single sampling with no comparative data to indicate that farm fish processing is any more dangerous than wild fish processing yet singles out farm fish processing as a risk while entirely overlooking the possibility that wild fish processing is equally or more risky. It doesn't provide any quantification of the purported risk but makes this recommendation:

These data underscore the need for fish farming nations to develop mandatory biosecurity programs to ensure that farmed salmon processing facilities will prevent the broadcast of infectious fish pathogens into wild fish habitat.

The data collected is certainly valid and worthy of entering the scientific record. The discussion, however, betrays the biases of the authors and for that reason, doesn't count as good science. I'm really surprised that the paper in it's existing form was considered worthy of publication.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on December 21, 2013, 05:04:53 PM
I agree - leaving out any comparative data to indicate that farm fish processing is any riskier than processing wild fish was a big omission – not to mention leaving out the important fact that wild fish are processed at the same facility.  It does not take much effort using Google to find out that Walcan processes wild salmon also amongst other things like shellfish.  How that was missed by the authors and the reviewers boogles my mind.  It took me less than a minute on the internet to find what Walcan processes.

Was there any effort to try to work with Walcan to make this more of a collaborative effort?  Was their any effort to contact Walcan about what they are doing or have planned for waste treatment?  There is no personal communication noted from Walcan in the study.  Why wasn’t there any effort to see if sampling could have been done when Pacific Salmon were being processed?  In 2010, when Fraser Sockeye were being processed at Walcan, why didn’t one of the authors have a V8 moment and attempt some sampling then?  The facility was even in the media announcing how busy they were with all those Sockeye.  This was the same year the authors were sampling.  Fish processing was pushed to the limit in 2010 when Fraser Sockeye were returning, so there should not have been any shortage of places to choose from.  At the very least, the authors should have noted this lack of comparative work and recommended future work to address those gaps in their discussion; instead, they seemed to skip over it as if wild Pacific salmon are not processed here at all.

Frankly, I am surprised that this paper survived peer review.  I would have thought that at least one of the reviewers would have seen these obvious omissions and told the authors to do some more data collection.  The authors also failed to mention that a new treatment system was not in full use until 2011.  It is good to be concern about this discharge, but the authors' data was already obsolete by the time it was published.  In the end, the study was not objective and reads more like a vendetta against salmon farming.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: StillAqua on December 27, 2013, 02:50:30 PM
Frankly, I am surprised that this paper survived peer review.  I would have thought that at least one of the reviewers would have seen these obvious omissions and told the authors to do some more data collection. 

You know the drill ShuSteve....if you and Absolon feel strongly about the faulty design, methods, collection and analysis of data and interpretation, you write a "comment to the paper", send it to the editors, and if they feel it has scientific merit they will publish it and allow the authors to respond. That's the scientific method.

But I think you do have a legitimate concern about how the paper's conclusions may be applied out of context or exagerated since one of the co-authors certainly has a track record for that sort of thing.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on December 27, 2013, 04:11:07 PM
One would suspect that the paper will stand or fall on it's own merit; that those with the tools to evaluate it and for whom it is relevant will evaluate it's contribution to the scientific record and value it appropriately. That too is the scientific method.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 27, 2013, 09:07:31 PM
Now if only the same scrutiny was applied to Farmfisher Bawb Loblaw's self serving links from the feedlot industry.... Imagine that!   ;)  (imagining is the only way to see it. Dare to dream!)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on December 27, 2013, 09:38:52 PM
You know the drill ShuSteve....if you and Absolon feel strongly about the faulty design, methods, collection and analysis of data and interpretation, you write a "comment to the paper", send it to the editors, and if they feel it has scientific merit they will publish it and allow the authors to respond. That's the scientific method.

I agree that is one route to go, but in this circumstance I believe the omissions were not a coincidence.  I don't believe it was an "Opps...we forgot".  I believe the omissions were known long before, but skipped over because "the ends justifies the means".  Not much different from Salmonconfidential.  I believe Absolon's take on this (from his last post) will put this study where it belongs.  However, it should be read by all and displayed as an example of how not to conduct an objective scientific study.  That is probably the most positive thing about the study.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on December 29, 2013, 09:26:57 AM
So ALL the junk science the feedlots put out is perfect! Who'd a thunk it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on December 30, 2013, 10:47:42 PM
http://www.thebristolbaytimes.com/article/1351farmed_fish_line_raises_questions
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 01, 2014, 08:27:09 AM
And that has little or nothing to do with CANADA (other than give you yet another anti American tilt)

Here Bawb, let me help you a bit, so you know the country.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada



Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 01, 2014, 11:06:00 PM
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/salmon-farmer-fishing-for-higher-returns/article16110073/?service=mobile
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 08, 2014, 02:24:38 PM
Alaska not liking msc these days.
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/blog/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on January 08, 2014, 09:45:12 PM
And like who cares bawb? :o I don't know why you want to share that drivel from fish farming hating Alaskan fishery site. Next thing they will be posting as is "fishhatchery.com" complaining about fish hatcheries competing with the dirty fish you so love. Reality check bawb no one cares what they say because it's propaganda.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 09, 2014, 07:10:37 PM
Quote
Alaska not liking msc these days.
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/blog/


Thanks for the link.  Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 10, 2014, 09:31:16 AM
Looking good. :)

http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/news070114.php
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on January 10, 2014, 02:17:31 PM
Looking bad :o

Marine Harvest's operations have been severely affected in the south of Chile, where millions of fish have died by the disease infectious salmon anemia.[80][81] The rapid propagation of the virus has motivated the enterprise to sell some of its facilities, firing more than a thousand employees,[80] with the aim of translating its installations further south to the Aisén Region. Parasitic, viral and fungal infections are all disseminated when the fish are stressed and the centres are too close together, and a spokesman for Marine Harvest recognized that his company was using too many antibiotics in Chile and that fish pens were too close, contributing to the dissemination of the ISA virus.[82] Norwegian scientist Are Nylund has suggested that Marine Harvest introduced the ISA virus to the region by importing infected eggs from Norway.[83]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Harvest

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 10, 2014, 07:46:05 PM
Old news TB. Unlike Doc Morton and Don, it looks like they have learned from mistakes. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on January 10, 2014, 09:09:26 PM
Read the drivel from your link and see information contains nothing about the amount of antibiotics they used in Chile, in the graphs timeline. Something smells of farmed salmon underfoot.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on January 10, 2014, 09:15:06 PM
This is Chile:
http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/time/america/chile.jpg

This is Canada:
http://www.mapsofworld.com/canada/maps/canada-map.gif

This is British Columbia:
http://www.hamiltonstampclub.com/images/british-columbia-map.gif

This is a map showing Marine Harvest CANADA farm sites off the coast of BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA (note: This area does not look like Chile...It is not an illusion.).
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/all_companies_2007-12_out_migration_sites.pdf

Salmon Virus Indicts CHILE'S Fishing Methods (note: The year of this news article is 2008....oh yeah...It doesn't talk about Marine Harvest in BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA, eh)

Marine Harvest recognized that his company was using too many antibiotics in Chile and that fish pens were too close, contributing to the dissemination of the ISA virus.[82] (again...CHILE not BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/world/americas/27salmon.html?fta=y&_r=0

Trends in antimicrobial use in Marine Harvest Canada farmed salmon production in British Columbia (2003-2011) (note: The year of this study is 2013 and is about Marine Harvest CANADA sites in BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24293677

TB, while you are at it you might want to compare the regulatory environments between CHILE and CANADA, so that you are comparing apples to apples. Wikipedia does not always tell the whole story for some reason.

Looking bad for you, TB  :P
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on January 11, 2014, 04:01:48 PM
 ;D  Another beauty!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on January 11, 2014, 05:31:00 PM
I know you don't mind Marine Scarvest likes to polute in other countries. So your looking bad. ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 12, 2014, 07:39:14 AM
So in conclusion, although Marine Harvest has messed up the coastal operations in Chile big time, they pinkie swear they won't do it here. Really? All I hear from  the feedlotters is....

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/clapping-seal-o_zps93b6ab44.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/clapping-seal-o_zps93b6ab44.gif.html)


Oooops - sorry. The seals have all been shot by the feedlotters....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 12, 2014, 09:46:16 AM
It appears your thoughts have been looked at for years and the industry has been moving forward to limit deaths.

http://www.campbellrivermirror.com/news/130225473.html?mobile=true
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 12, 2014, 10:23:04 AM
It appears your thoughts have been looked at for years and the industry has been moving forward to limit deaths.

http://www.campbellrivermirror.com/news/130225473.html?mobile=true

At the feedlots or from consumption of their products? "Limiting deaths"? How about making this the NUMBER 1 PRORITY? LOOKED AT FOR YEARS? IT'S TAKING THEM YEARS TO COME UP WITH A PLAN TO SAVE THE LIVES OF THEIR WORKERS? Is that the kind of corporate entities any reasonable human would want doing business in our province, let alone sitting on and being stewards of, in their own words "pristine" tracts of our coast? I think you blew a tire with that ridiculous post Bawb.


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on January 12, 2014, 10:24:04 AM
Actually, seal and sea lion populations in bc are on the rise and have been doing so for some time.  Interestingly the populations in alaska have been on a sharp decline at the same time. So to say that salmon farmers shot them all is clearly false because currently the numbers are higher than what they have been for some time.

Sea lions are no longer able to rip holes in nets due to regulation.  Nets are required to meet a strength standard that goes beyond the abilities of sea lions.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 12, 2014, 11:39:23 AM
"This pamphlet provides the most recent scientific information on the status of seals and sea lions in B.C. It describes the general biology, trends in abundance and feeding habits of species that occur on the B.C. coast. The conflicts that arise with commercial and sport fisheries are also discussed."

http://www.racerocks.com/racerock/rreo/rreoref/mmammals/sealsandsealions.htm

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on January 12, 2014, 02:37:44 PM
So in conclusion, although Marine Harvest has messed up the coastal operations in Chile big time, they pinkie swear they won't do it here.

And that has little or nothing to do with CANADA (other than give you yet another anti Chilean tilt)

Here NB, let me help you a bit, so you know the country.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada

Burn
 ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on January 12, 2014, 03:22:00 PM
I know you don't mind Marine Scarvest likes to polute in other countries. So your looking bad. ;)

No, I just wanted to help you out with geography.  Tough times in the fish farm fear mongering camp these days, huh?  Not easy when the mothership (Ms Morton) has abandoned you here, so no doubt you are a little bitter.
 :P
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 12, 2014, 04:26:58 PM
And that has little or nothing to do with CANADA (other than give you yet another anti Chilean tilt)

Here NB, let me help you a bit, so you know the country.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada

Burn
 ;D


Try READING what I wrote there Sidestep and not twisting what I said about Canadian influence on American policy. When you can comprehend it states if they pull crap like that elsewhere- then they don't belong here. I didn't stutter when I said that. But again, avoid the blood of the workers that's on their corporate hands. Nice sidestep/ poor attempt at diversion. Stevie, but try READING AND COMPREHENSION.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on January 12, 2014, 10:21:45 PM

Try READING what I wrote there Sidestep and not twisting what I said about Canadian influence on American policy. When you can comprehend it states if they pull crap like that elsewhere- then they don't belong here. I didn't stutter when I said that. But again, avoid the blood of the workers that's on their corporate hands. Nice sidestep/ poor attempt at diversion. Stevie, but try READING AND COMPREHENSION.

No, of course you don't stutter - you stumble.  Seems like you cannot comprehend because the study is about Marine Harvest CANADA.  The "diversion" here is posting something (from 2008) from Wikipedia regarding Marine Harvest in CHILE deflecting from any positive work being done here in BRITISH COLUMBIA because you simply can't accept that people in the industry here want to make changes for the better even when it is documented that they are trying.

The blood of the workers...lol??  Nice dramatics there, NB.  Which workers are you referring to?  Are we talking about coal miners from Cape Breton now? 

Canadian influence on American policy??  There's a new one...lol.  Now that was actually funny.  Good one.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on January 13, 2014, 07:51:16 AM
Pro guys are going Chuck Strahl on us.....they can't see the conflict. ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 13, 2014, 11:34:12 AM
Making a huge pocket of cash to start conflict. :)
http://fairquestions.typepad.com/rethink_campaigns/alexandra-morton-non-profit-revenue-2000-2010.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on January 13, 2014, 12:48:28 PM
that article does a good job at twisting some numbers.  900k is not a lot of money at all. especially to run a non profit.

probably has a few full time staff... probably some kind of comprehensive medical/disability benefits. probably has an office/lab to maintain. travel, research expeditions. etc.    that would eat up 900k pretty fast.

I work for a non profit, my understanding is that for an 'enterprise' to hold a non profit standing they are openly audited and everything accounting related is disclosed. All of my expenses and spending is accounted for down to the last penny.  If you truly wanted to find out her 'salary' it would be fairly simple as she can't hide that.

It also fails to mention that true for profit companies use lobbyists.  I'm not too sure there are any non profits of there actually paying people to sway government decision in their favour.

so, bob. maybe you can just post her salary and tell us how deep her pockets are with cash.  You'd think if she was rollin in money she would take better care of her appearance.

i'm definitely interested to know what she takes home.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 13, 2014, 02:40:01 PM
No, of course you don't stutter - you stumble.  Seems like you cannot comprehend because the study is about Marine Harvest CANADA.  The "diversion" here is posting something (from 2008) from Wikipedia regarding Marine Harvest in CHILE deflecting from any positive work being done here in BRITISH COLUMBIA because you simply can't accept that people in the industry here want to make changes for the better even when it is documented that they are trying.

The blood of the workers...lol??  Nice dramatics there, NB.  Which workers are you referring to?  Are we talking about coal miners from Cape Breton now? 

Canadian influence on American policy??  There's a new one...lol.  Now that was actually funny.  Good one.


Read this and see about the on the job deaths you seem to think are funny. And their wonderful labour practices Sidestep. Now there's something to mock about. Maybe you can get in touch with the families and have a good laugh about it. Only I think you'd be the only one that sees humour in that.

Are we really that desperate for the few jobs that we accept this kind of company to run here? Oh, one more little chore for you - go down across the line and tell them that Canada wants their policies changed. Let me know how that works for you ::)

 

http://www.puresalmon.org/labor_practices.htm

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 13, 2014, 03:20:07 PM

Read this and see about the on the job deaths you seem to think are funny. And their wonderful labour practices Sidestep. Now there's something to mock about. Maybe you can get in touch with the families and have a good laugh about it. Only I think you'd be the only one that sees humour in that.

Are we really that desperate for the few jobs that we accept this kind of company to run here? Oh, one more little chore for you - go down across the line and tell them that Canada wants their policies changed. Let me know how that works for you ::)

 

http://www.puresalmon.org/labor_practices.htm

That link is a dead end NB.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 13, 2014, 03:27:41 PM
that article does a good job at twisting some numbers.  900k is not a lot of money at all. especially to run a non profit.

probably has a few full time staff... probably some kind of comprehensive medical/disability benefits. probably has an office/lab to maintain. travel, research expeditions. etc.    that would eat up 900k pretty fast.

I work for a non profit, my understanding is that for an 'enterprise' to hold a non profit standing they are openly audited and everything accounting related is disclosed. All of my expenses and spending is accounted for down to the last penny.  If you truly wanted to find out her 'salary' it would be fairly simple as she can't hide that.

It also fails to mention that true for profit companies use lobbyists.  I'm not too sure there are any non profits of there actually paying people to sway government decision in their favour.

so, bob. maybe you can just post her salary and tell us how deep her pockets are with cash.  You'd think if she was rollin in money she would take better care of her appearance.

i'm definitely interested to know what she takes home.
The so called none profits like Doc Morton should practice what they preach and be transparent about their finances and post it for their donors to see. Why should I have to dig for it? :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 13, 2014, 04:23:49 PM
That link is a dead end NB.


fixed and you won't like the picture it paints

http://www.puresalmon.org/labor_practices.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on January 13, 2014, 06:24:49 PM

fixed and you won't like the picture it paints

http://www.puresalmon.org/labor_practices.html
Kinda sounds like the garment industry that provides the clothes we North American Walmart, Target, etc, shoppers seem to crave ... but   
why are you comparing outdated Chilean human rights issues and their aquaculture practices, to ours in 2014?  As Steve said, it's like apples and oranges and, for so many reasons previously stated, is irrelevant to our situation in BC.

Show me how and where BC or Washington State salmon farmers have impacted wild salmon stocks, here in BC.  Do that and that's when our salmon farming practices will become important to me.  In the meantime I will concern myself with the real issues confronting wild salmon.


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 13, 2014, 06:50:53 PM
Kinda sounds like the garment industry that provides the clothes we North American Walmart, Target, etc, shoppers seem to crave ... but   
why are you comparing outdated Chilean human rights issues and their aquaculture practices, to ours in 2014?  As Steve said, it's like apples and oranges and, for so many reasons previously stated, is irrelevant to our situation in BC.

Show me how and where BC or Washington State salmon farmers have impacted wild salmon stocks, here in BC.  Do that and that's when our salmon farming practices will become important to me.  In the meantime I will concern myself with the real issues confronting wild salmon.

Same company, different country Dave. I'd bet dollars to donuts they'd do the same thing here if they could get away with it. Didn't you post how screwed up the feedlots are making eastern waters and the impacts on the wild stocks there? Does that make them good corporate citizens? And it's not just the impacts on wild stocks, but the impacts from the pollution they add to our waters. You can't ever convince me that the crap they use to feed, medicate and treat the frankenfish doesn't have a profound effect on our waters.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on January 13, 2014, 09:20:37 PM
That same “crap” is used in our Provincial and Federal hatcheries Nova, likely more than most know.
I realize I can't change your mind but I do believe the salmon aquaculture industry practiced here by BC and Washington State does not have the same negative effects as we have seen in countries with indigenous Atlantic salmon.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on January 13, 2014, 09:23:54 PM

Read this and see about the on the job deaths you seem to think are funny. And their wonderful labour practices Sidestep. Now there's something to mock about. Maybe you can get in touch with the families and have a good laugh about it. Only I think you'd be the only one that sees humour in that.

Are we really that desperate for the few jobs that we accept this kind of company to run here? Oh, one more little chore for you - go down across the line and tell them that Canada wants their policies changed. Let me know how that works for you ::)

http://www.puresalmon.org/labor_practices.htm

As predicted you have gone into another sob story; however, as Dave correctly pointed out, you and all your fellow fear mongers are quite happy to shop at places that obtain products from 3rd World countries where labour practices are no better......but you mainly like it because the products are much cheaper.  That's where your morally and concern for the poor workers in 3rd World countries goes by the wayside.  Juan Valdez and his friends get thrown under the bus pretty quick so you can enjoy the great deals, don't kid me.  So please, get off your soapbox and stop preaching like you are so concerned for Chilean workers.  It is hollow like the rest of your arguments.  You (and Pure Salmon Campaign) likely couldn't give a damn about them when you are shopping in Superstore when you pick up those Chilean grapes or those Joe Fresh clothes from Bangladesh.  If you are so upset about labour practices in Chile then why don't you complain to those that are ultimately responsible - the Chilean government.

Few jobs?  Again, you are so misinformed, NB.  Farmed salmon is BC's number one agricultural export and employs 6,000 people directly and indirectly.  Go to places on Vancouver Island like Campbell River and tell City Council that it is only a few jobs.  Meanwhile they will be happy to know what your plans are to replace a major agricultural export with something else.

Hey there, Swifty.....Seems like you didn't understand your own humour.  You are the one that said "Canadian influence on American policy" which I thought was kind of strange thing (and funny) to say because it should be the other way around.  I actually paid you a compliment for your humour.  Tough crowd.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on January 13, 2014, 09:32:31 PM
You can't ever convince me that the crap they use to feed, medicate and treat the frankenfish doesn't have a profound effect on our waters.

BC farmed fish are not genetically modified to enhance growth, so I don't know where you get "frankenfish" from.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 14, 2014, 06:42:06 AM
And another masterful Sidestep Steve- BTW I'm so glad you're shadowing me so closely that you're able to sniff out the labels on my underwear, and here I thought it was my cheeks. Did you enjoy shadowing me when I shop and rifling through my drawers to read the labels? Mumsy and Daddy wasted all that money on education and you're reduced to looking at others attire and food :o ;D. Pity. I notice a big gap in the less than spirited defense of Marine Harvest , the practices and legacy of the company by you and Mr. B. Another sob story? Pointing out the facts about a company history and expressing an opinion that they aren't worthy of trust is a sob story? Just sitting back or trying to polish that turd is a sob story. 6000 jobs you say? How many are part time and what's the pay scale?
So let me hear your defense of Marine Harvest's past.....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 14, 2014, 09:45:25 AM
Get the pop corn ready. Sheeple are producing a block buster on what they do not know. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on January 15, 2014, 08:12:48 AM
Get the pop corn ready. Sheeple are producing a block buster on what they do not know. :)

oh you mean exactly what you do, by taking a random link saying a non profit has an operating budget of 900k. and that her pockets are lined with cash.

substantiate your claims man.  pretty basic.  you expect facts.  then present them.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 15, 2014, 08:45:28 AM
"Astroturfing is the practice of masking the sponsors of a message (e.g. political, advertising, or public relations) to give the appearance of it coming from a disinterested, grassroots participant. Astroturfing is intended to give the statements the credibility of an independent entity by withholding information about the source's financial connection."
   I might think differently if Doc Morton got something right. :)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on January 15, 2014, 01:04:34 PM
"Astroturfing is the practice of masking the sponsors of a message (e.g. political, advertising, or public relations) to give the appearance of it coming from a disinterested, grassroots participant. Astroturfing is intended to give the statements the credibility of an independent entity by withholding information about the source's financial connection."
   I might think differently if Doc Morton got something right. :)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

I think I may know what your talking about.

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=33865.0
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 15, 2014, 09:12:22 PM
I think I may know what your talking about.

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=33865.0



Remember, you heard it here first.. Ol' Sidestep and Dave will appear in a few minutes telling us Bawb's an aid worker with the disadvantaged.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 16, 2014, 07:58:25 AM


Remember, you heard it here first.. Ol' Sidestep and Dave will appear in a few minutes telling us Bawb's an aid worker with the disadvantaged.
Heard what NB? Speculation that you thrive on? LOL. I have already told you why I post and you and others toss it aside. Carry on and I will get the pop corn ready for your next ground breaking production. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on January 17, 2014, 07:18:00 AM
"Carry on and I will get the pop corn ready for your next ground breaking production"

Make it a double helping of farmed salmon bawb. Friday in all.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 17, 2014, 01:25:46 PM
"Carry on and I will get the pop corn ready for your next ground breaking production"

Make it a double helping of farmed salmon bawb. Friday in all.


Even Farmfissurebawb won't ea\t that crap........
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on January 17, 2014, 04:25:41 PM
And another masterful Sidestep Steve- BTW I'm so glad you're shadowing me so closely that you're able to sniff out the labels on my underwear, and here I thought it was my cheeks. Did you enjoy shadowing me when I shop and rifling through my drawers to read the labels? Mumsy and Daddy wasted all that money on education and you're reduced to looking at others attire and food :o ;D. Pity. I notice a big gap in the less than spirited defense of Marine Harvest , the practices and legacy of the company by you and Mr. B. Another sob story? Pointing out the facts about a company history and expressing an opinion that they aren't worthy of trust is a sob story? Just sitting back or trying to polish that turd is a sob story. 6000 jobs you say? How many are part time and what's the pay scale?
So let me hear your defense of Marine Harvest's past.....

Oh...did I hurt your fragile feelings again?  As for masterful sidestep you have been the one avoiding the original study and decided to jump into labour practices.  Now you don't like fact that you might be hypocrite who shops at those stores that gets products from 3rd world countries.  But no...you only buy Canadian....lol.  Fish farm critics have as much concerned for Chiliean fish farm workers as Harper has for scientists.  Some big defender of worker's rights you are, swifty.  As for shadowing I think that Depends do not have labels so you should safe from anyone rifling through your drawers or having anyone get close enough to sniff out the labels.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 17, 2014, 07:10:28 PM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/bc-open-new-fish-farms
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 18, 2014, 06:02:25 AM
Um,  Steve you seem pretty defensive and avoid that little part about the Chilean operations and the way they abused their workers other than a dismissive snort. Your concern for other humans is so touching it just makes me wretch. FYI - I was at one point in my life a shop steward and worker safety was a primary concern. That stuff really puts the boots to your specious claims about the wonderful :o  enterprises the mothership runs elsewhere. Where's the defense of the practices of those policies for the workers? Again, if they pull that crap there, what are they trying here? Sidestep the question as to how many of the McJobs are full time? How much do they pay? I didn't state that I only buy Canadian, but if I have a choice I do. You're losing steam little buddy and sidestepping masterfully.

ooohh Depends! How (not) witty! Mumsy and Daddy's tuition to comedy school was a waste of money. ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on January 18, 2014, 03:08:09 PM
Um,  Steve you seem pretty defensive and avoid that little part about the Chilean operations and the way they abused their workers other than a dismissive snort. Your concern for other humans is so touching it just makes me wretch. FYI - I was at one point in my life a shop steward and worker safety was a primary concern. That stuff really puts the boots to your specious claims about the wonderful :o  enterprises the mothership runs elsewhere. Where's the defense of the practices of those policies for the workers? Again, if they pull that crap there, what are they trying here? Sidestep the question as to how many of the McJobs are full time? How much do they pay? I didn't state that I only buy Canadian, but if I have a choice I do. You're losing steam little buddy and sidestepping masterfully.

ooohh Depends! How (not) witty! Mumsy and Daddy's tuition to comedy school was a waste of money. ;D

A shop steward AND a hypocrite now.  Well, "former shop steward" perhaps you might want to compare the regulatory environments between Chile and CANADA before you get too concerned about "what are they trying here"?  However, that would require you to do a little research and perhaps having to depart from your fear mongering which I can see making you kind of uncomfortable.  As for how much the jobs pay why do not you ask them yourself.  You know...take some initiative to find out the facts instead of relying on misinformation.

No need to go to comedy school when you provide lots of opportunity to dig you back.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 19, 2014, 07:08:12 AM
Maybe I was too hasty with the comedy school flop. You know as well as I do that many of the "6000 jobs" are part time and on call in the processing end. Logistics? Same. I only asked those tough questions because of your claims about being somewhat of an expert on the subject.
Did they abuse:

A) - The environment
B) - The workers
You know the answers Stevie but choose to sidestep

Hilarious!

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/627_zps9e531ba3.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/627_zps9e531ba3.gif.html)

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 19, 2014, 08:40:38 AM
If this is, I am sure you would be the first to post it.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 19, 2014, 09:06:20 AM
If this is, I am sure you would be the first to post it.


????????? Huh? If what is what?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on January 19, 2014, 10:58:31 AM
Here you go Steve - read this and tell me again about the 6000 jobs (and growing, much like that stories nose) and the wonderful economic engines the feedlots are, spewing cash all over the province. All rearng is done organically and they change those Depends every 2 hours. ::) Jobs, jobs and more jobs. ;D ::)Wanna revise that theory? Oh wait a minute. This is the Canadian arm. Although they do it everywhere else, they wouldn't do it here......would they?
 

https://www.georgiastrait.org/files/share/PDF/CCPA_fish_farms.pdf

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 19, 2014, 12:38:37 PM
Can't make it past the first page with out asking for donations lol. As for your part time work NB, how does it compare to the tourist and our sport fishing industry? Oh never mind, you do not answer questions. Same as Doc Morton.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on January 19, 2014, 11:30:40 PM
Here you go Steve - read this and tell me again about the 6000 jobs (and growing, much like that stories nose) and the wonderful economic engines the feedlots are, spewing cash all over the province. All rearng is done organically and they change those Depends every 2 hours. ::) Jobs, jobs and more jobs. ;D ::)Wanna revise that theory? Oh wait a minute. This is the Canadian arm. Although they do it everywhere else, they wouldn't do it here......would they?
 
https://www.georgiastrait.org/files/share/PDF/CCPA_fish_farms.pdf

Did you happen to check the date on that article you posted?  You found some old data (Bummer, eh?).  It might be beneficial to have more recent statistics.  As for most of those 6000 jobs being part time and on call in the processing end that is not exactly what I found; however, it is conceivable that fish and seafood processors handle fish and seafood products harvested by the capture fishery as well as those produced by the aquaculture sector (i.e. Walcan).  If you are also going to talk about part-time employment you will definitely find it in the capture fisheries which you didn’t mention.  In fairness, I found out that measuring employment figures with industries like aquaculture is difficult and that employment in the industry has decreased by 10% between 2000 and 2011 (not sure if that includes all aquaculture – not just farmed salmon).  Nevertheless, there is no doubt that with the declines in forestry and commercial fisheries that aquaculture has become more prominent in a variety of communities on Vancouver Island like Campbell River.  It is not just the fish farm companies themselves, but the many companies that supply goods and services to the aquaculture industry (i.e. nets, fish processing, transportation, diving services, machinery, etc.).

Overall, the economic importance of salmon aquaculture to the province is fairly small when compared to other marine-based industries. Sports fishing, commercial fishing, salmon processing, and marine tourism all surpass salmon farming in GDP, employment, and export revenue. – Fishy Business: The Economics of Salmon Farming in BC (2003).

If you look over the long term (2000 to 2011) and compare real GDP increases between capture fisheries, sport fisheries, fish processing and aquaculture you will notice that the BC aquaculture industry has experience the most dramatic growth, increasing 47.7% since 2000.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/ref/aqua-es2009-eng.htm#ch3
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/research-resources/2008_industryprofile_pwc.pdf
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/british_columbias_fisheries_and_aquaculture_sector_2012_edition.pdf
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/omfd/fishstats/proc/index.html


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on January 19, 2014, 11:33:10 PM

Hilarious!

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/627_zps9e531ba3.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/627_zps9e531ba3.gif.html)

Which one is you? You both seem happy...Congratulations.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 23, 2014, 07:49:40 AM

http://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/letters/nature-responsible-for-poor-salmon-runs-1.796887


http://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/letters/fish-farmers-support-salmon-research-1.796889
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on January 23, 2014, 04:15:08 PM
Earning your paycheck at the fishfarm today bawb. Some days you've been slacking off. :-\
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 24, 2014, 09:13:35 AM
Rebutal to Doc Morton's astroturfing.
I found it an interesting listen.
  Jan 23 2014 CKNW Radio.

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/radio-programs-salmon-farming
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on January 24, 2014, 04:57:37 PM
Rebutal to Doc Morton's astroturfing.
I found it an interesting listen.
  Jan 23 2014 CKNW Radio.

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/radio-programs-salmon-farming

Is this you the guy is replying to bawb:

"Yeah, so Suzuki may have overstated his case. I’m suspicious of that web site you cite, being an opponent of fish farming myself. Suzuki was mentioned in my post about genetically engineered trees. I guess your point is he’s not credible? Or are you trying to make a more general point about environmentalists?"

You never did answer back :-\

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 31, 2014, 02:10:56 PM
http://salmonconfidential.com/2014/01/31/science-bloggers-take-on-the-film-my-blog-and-dr-gary-marty/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on January 31, 2014, 04:32:12 PM
Bawb your posting garbage on that link.


http://environmental-history-science.blogspot.ca/2014/01/salmon-confidential-video-science-and.html#!/2014/01/salmon-confidential-video-science-and.html

"I'll probably use it in the classroom.  It's useful as an example of using video to bring science into a public debate.  It's also useful because there are two relevant websites: one accompanying the film, salmonconfidential.ca, which provides supporting material, and salmonconfidential.com, set up by an anonymous salmon farmer as an attempt to refute the film."

I don't see the name on the person responding to his blog. Marty? or smarty pants anonymous salmon farmer? I did find this responce from Marty.
http://environmental-history-science.blogspot.ca/2014/01/salmon-confidential-response-from-dr.html#!/2014/01/salmon-confidential-response-from-dr.html

Hopefully your not doing that kind of work at the fish farm or your going to kill off the dirty fish. :P

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on January 31, 2014, 08:26:47 PM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/01/31/activist-math-contaminants-and-the-art-of-fear/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 01, 2014, 08:32:24 AM
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=754
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 04, 2014, 08:42:22 AM
http://environmental-history-science.blogspot.ca/2014/01/salmon-confidential-response-from-dr.html?m=1
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 05, 2014, 07:15:37 PM
http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/02/04/rob-breakenridge-we-need-a-better-david-suzuki
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on February 05, 2014, 09:32:01 PM
Other than Dave or Steve , nobody bothers to read your self serving links Bawb. I'm finding ignoring the bologna very liberating, but I do miss the belly laughs...
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on February 05, 2014, 09:43:05 PM
Nova it's funny you would post that on a thread that has 688 reply's and 22thousand some views.  Even funnier that the thread is called "get your facts straight".  And you really believe that only steve and dave read bawbs post's.  Thanks for the demonstration.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on February 07, 2014, 05:43:07 AM
Nova it's funny you would post that on a thread that has 688 reply's and 22thousand some views.  Even funnier that the thread is called "get your facts straight".  And you really believe that only steve and dave read bawbs post's.  Thanks for the demonstration.

Oooops , sorry I forgot about you being on the cheerleading squad too. I look to see if Bawb (King of independent thought :o)is thinking on his own, instead of posting farmyard waste. Apparently not, as it's all still propaganda from the feedlots. Carry on!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Sandman on February 07, 2014, 07:33:22 AM
I don't tend to read either's post as they are rarely more mudslinging and name calling, but bob can lead one to interesting places.  Here is a good read by a fellow environmental historian (he posted that response by dr Marty on his blog), in it he discusses the history of the use (and misuse) of science by both on both sides of the debate over salmon farming and the changing role and use of scientific inquiry to support political, economic and social agendas.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 07, 2014, 04:27:33 PM

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.2526330
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 13, 2014, 12:22:06 PM
Looks like Don did not have his facts right, if he has any at all.
http://www.mainstream-group.com/portal/wps/wcm/connect/msca-content-en/mainstream-canada/news/court+dismisses+activist+appeal+attempt
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on February 13, 2014, 02:36:15 PM
He may have to sell his condom suits to pay his fine.  Just wait for the plea for donations  :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on February 13, 2014, 10:59:32 PM
Apparently Don has a job now....

Stifled in B.C., Staniford said he "had no real choice but to set up shop somewhere else," and he is now working with a private Scottish land owner, taking action against the industry, specifically the Norwegian-owned companies.

"My boss has six salmon farms within 30 kilometres of her salmon river, so the challenge is to move those six farms by 2020 and fight the Scottish government's plans for a 50 per cent expansion of the industry by 2020."


http://www.timescolonist.com/gagged-fish-farm-foe-takes-fight-against-industry-to-scotland-1.769967#

After his boss is stripped clean of whatever money he/she has after being sued to kingdom come Don the parasite will move onto another host.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 17, 2014, 09:56:48 AM
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/agrimarine-profits-and-fish-swim-away-literally/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 19, 2014, 06:02:21 PM
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/sweetspring-salmon-calls-for-investors-to-keep-afloat-part-3-of-4/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on February 20, 2014, 08:38:55 AM
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/sweetspring-salmon-calls-for-investors-to-keep-afloat-part-3-of-4/

"This site is downright eerie. Anonymous voices, appearing to advocate managing for “ranched” fish over wild fish, claiming that “at Thanksgiving, no one cares…” whether a turkey is wild, farmed or ranched–and, by extension that no one cares whether our salmon are ranched, farmed or wild? Yikes. I agree with those who observe that the lack of transparency on this site is disturbing and ultimately discrediting. As far as “no one caring…” My wife and I care. Many others do as well"


well fishfarmen posten varmen bawb likes their crap ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 20, 2014, 04:36:06 PM
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/featured/prime-time/867432237001/foreign-terror-funding-cut-off-from-canada/3193713051001

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 21, 2014, 08:22:54 AM
http://m.coastreporter.net/article/20140221/SECHELT0303/302219978/-1/sechelt/base-opinions-on-fact-not-fiction&template=JQMArticle
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: sim on February 21, 2014, 11:03:11 AM
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/featured/prime-time/867432237001/foreign-terror-funding-cut-off-from-canada/3193713051001

Come on... Ezra Levant... please.... that guy keeps being condemned and keeps issuing retraction and apology for his statements.

I like this one:
"Justice Robert Smith ruled that Levant 'spoke in reckless disregard of the truth and for an ulterior purpose of denormalizing the Human Rights Commission across Canada which makes his statements malicious in that sense."
Gives you an idea of Levant's sense of ethics... By the way, if you did not know, Levant wrote the book "ethical oils"....
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 21, 2014, 11:39:46 AM
3 letters.
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/picking-and-choosing-cohens-final-report
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on February 21, 2014, 11:43:19 AM
Quote
Come on... Ezra Levant... please.... that guy keeps being condemned and keeps issuing retraction and apology for his statements.

At least he does retractions where retractions are due. 

I think Rick Mercer makes some good points on ezra here in his rant back in 2008

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYVo86j0tA
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on February 23, 2014, 12:38:00 PM
Namgis

http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/namgis-salmon-farm-attracting-investors-and-irritating-everybody-else-part-4-of-4/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 25, 2014, 03:42:42 PM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/fish-farms-seek-new-feed-fend-peak-salmon-problem
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on February 25, 2014, 05:55:48 PM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/fish-farms-seek-new-feed-fend-peak-salmon-problem
Another interesting read Fisherbob.  Keep em comin' ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on February 26, 2014, 06:56:54 AM
we can always treat them as canadian cows and puff some corn.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on February 26, 2014, 08:24:55 PM
Another interes ting read Fisherbob.  Keep em comin' ;)

delusional entertainment ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on February 26, 2014, 09:38:33 PM
Another interesting read Fisherbob.  Keep em comin' ;)


(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/tumblr_m9cckmRlJK1rd2qw6o1_400_zpsdf7aac0f.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/tumblr_m9cckmRlJK1rd2qw6o1_400_zpsdf7aac0f.gif.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 27, 2014, 08:14:15 AM
Hope animal feeders are looking for better sources of feed oil.

"Fishmeal is also widely used as a food source for variety of purposes such as poultry, pigs, cattle and sheep. They can be of great importance in enhancing the quality of poultry and others by fattening them. fishmeal also fulfills all the protein requirements"

http://www.agricultureguide.org/fishmeal-plants/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 27, 2014, 05:23:48 PM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/02/27/antibiotics-in-aquaculture-getting-the-facts-straight/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on February 28, 2014, 08:43:46 AM
bob thanks for that youtube link in the ocean acidification thread.

however, your last link here doesn't address the fact that aquaculture generally exists is open water where the antibiotics are free to swim around and enjoy the currents.

obviously more is used in land based farming, but it's disposal isn't as readily distributed in the ocean.  same with pets.... sure they are given antibiotics.  but they are probably thrown in the garbage to  be in a landfill or they are flushed down the toilet.... and I think peoples antibiotics are more likely to end up in the ocean than the ones prescribed for pets.

 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on February 28, 2014, 03:23:51 PM
What the last link clearly outlines is that there are individuals (in this case economics professors) who are critical of salmon farming, but have no idea about it.  Like I said before....If someone is going to be highly critical of something so strongly then take the time to learn something about it.  The professor in this case shows so much ignorance - making assumptions which are not even reality of the industry (at least here that is).

Land-based farming disposal isn't as readily distributed in the ocean?  If it ends up in ground run-off into tributaries or big rivers like the Fraser why couldn't it can eventually find it's way to larger water bodies - like the ocean?  What about all those farms between Chilliwack and Delta - could it not enter the Fraser River?  Once waste makes it's way to the Fraser River delta why couldn't it be distributed in the ocean?  According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), the biggest source of pollution in the ocean is land-based.  Apparently 80% of the pollution to the marine environment comes from land.

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/pollution.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on February 28, 2014, 03:55:08 PM
yes steven. it will eventually make it to the ocean... but it gets filtered by the ground,  processed or pollutes indiectly. 

in larger quantities yes. but not as direct
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on February 28, 2014, 04:23:56 PM
http://www.bcsalmonfacts.ca/#!/fact/information
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on February 28, 2014, 04:39:28 PM
Filtered by the ground, processed or pollutes indirectly?  Hmmm.....well, if it "gets filtered by the ground" then why does NOAA suggest that 80% of the ocean pollution begins on land?  So pesticides and fertilizers are just "indirectly" making their way so that is not as bad?  We haven't even touched on storm drains or even ground water impacts.  How much precipitation falls in the Lower Mainland annually?  C'mon stop making me giggle, banx.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on February 28, 2014, 05:53:12 PM
come on steve. I don't think i'm coming across correctly to you. I don't mean its 'filtered' in a good way. all of what i was saying is bad. terrible. just not good. and its not intended to make you giggle.

all i'm saying is its not as direct. yes it does make its way into water sources, obviously. in huge quatities. its just cows don't live in the ocean.


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on February 28, 2014, 10:58:17 PM
What does it really matter?  Both situations have waste that directly or indirectly (better to say non-point source pollution instead) goes into the water which ends up in the ocean.  Whether farmed salmon and cows do their business in different environments is a bit of a red herring.  Waste that comes out of the Fraser is free to swim around and enjoy the currents also.  However, it is pretty clear which activities share the bigger piece of the pollution pie as well as the main source of this pollution.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 04, 2014, 06:15:47 AM
Marine harvest growing market size salmon on land.

http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/pdf/MHC%20Newsletter%20March%202014%20WEB.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Sandman on March 04, 2014, 07:31:04 PM
Filtered by the ground, processed or pollutes indirectly?  Hmmm.....well, if it "gets filtered by the ground" then why does NOAA suggest that 80% of the ocean pollution begins on land?  So pesticides and fertilizers are just "indirectly" making their way so that is not as bad?  We haven't even touched on storm drains or even ground water impacts.  How much precipitation falls in the Lower Mainland annually?  C'mon stop making me giggle, banx.

Short answer: Because over 80% of human activity takes place on land.  As we expand our activity in the ocean you can bet that percentage will change accordingly.  How is arguing that land based agriculture pollutes the ocean going to show that aquaculture doesn't pollute the ocean anyway? We have done a lot to MINIMIZE (but not eliminate) the agricultural runoff (expansion of the riparian zones so farmers cannot plow right to the stream course is one), because we know it is a major source of pollution but pesticide and fertilizers continue to be a major polluter of our waterways, and yes they lead to the ocean.   None of this changes the fact that open net pens discharge waste directly into the ocean with no filtration at all.  Does it make sense to force land based farmers to reduce their environmental impact, while agriculturalists are allowed to freely discharge waste directly into the ocean?   The argument that fish farms cover a small area becomes moot once government and industry talk about continued expansion.  That percentage is going to change.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on March 05, 2014, 12:23:49 AM
Short answer: Because over 80% of human activity takes place on land.  As we expand our activity in the ocean you can bet that percentage will change accordingly.  How is arguing that land based agriculture pollutes the ocean going to show that aquaculture doesn't pollute the ocean anyway? We have done a lot to MINIMIZE (but not eliminate) the agricultural runoff (expansion of the riparian zones so farmers cannot plow right to the stream course is one), because we know it is a major source of pollution but pesticide and fertilizers continue to be a major polluter of our waterways, and yes they lead to the ocean.   None of this changes the fact that open net pens discharge waste directly into the ocean with no filtration at all.  Does it make sense to force land based farmers to reduce their environmental impact, while agriculturalists are allowed to freely discharge waste directly into the ocean?   The argument that fish farms cover a small area becomes moot once government and industry talk about continued expansion.  That percentage is going to change.

No, it is not meant to show that aquaculture doesn't pollute the ocean.  It is meant to show how skewed the criticism is of aquaculture waste into the ocean when the biggest offenders have been doing this for a long time now and share a much bigger percentage.  The same argument can be made that aquaculture has done a lot to minimize (but not eliminate) waste discharge into the ocean.  For instance, the amount of feed used is video monitored to help prevent the unnecessary waste and benthic monitoring is a condition of their licence.  Salmon farming in BC is likely the most regulated resource industry in the province and the regulations here are amongst the most stringent in the world.  Can't say the same about land-based agriculture, but of course salmon farming is the big Boogeyman so all those other impacts on land get pushed aside because "they are not on the water".

Even the latest report from NOAA dispels some of those myths:

http://www.seafoodsource.com/en/news/aquaculture/25232-noaa-coastal-aquaculture-environmentally-safe
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on March 05, 2014, 08:04:11 AM
Talking trash under the net pen Steve. That link you posted should come with TP. Thanks for the chuckle.


"NOAA has a chonic case of anal-cranial inversion. At a time when Canadians and others are looking to go from open water-net pen aquaculture to land-based contained facilities due to problems of feed loss, antibiotic and pesticide/herbicide use with net pens, and the continual problem of escapes, NOAA make the outrageous claim that marine cages are the future of aquaculture. This is pure nonsense and is not based on fact, but rather what NOAA perceives as its regulatory jurisdiction.
 
 

 "There are only two instances of the word 'disease' in this 170 page report; one in a section discussing the fact that marine mammals may stress caged fish and result in greater disease in the farmed fish, the other in a sentence referring to the notion that wild fish in tropical regions might contract diseases when they congregate around aquaculture cages. I realize this is only a "comprehensive review of some predominant environmental risks" but I think the conclusion is a bit premature and the headline just a tad overstated."


"Absolutely mind-boggling to think it's "environmentally safe." I totally agree with Zeke Grader's comments. Also, it's shameful that NOAA is not concerned with the health of the oceans, ecosystems and the livelihood of the fishermen. I reckon taking orders from the Department of Commerce is the reason NOAA published this report; business as usual."



Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 05, 2014, 10:05:12 AM
http://www.ec.gc.ca/inre-nwri/default.asp?lang=En&n=235D11EB-1&offset=14&toc=show
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 05, 2014, 10:31:06 AM
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=37&article_id=104158
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on March 07, 2014, 06:40:34 AM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/03/06/calling-shenanigans-again-on-mortons-junk-graph/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on March 07, 2014, 06:56:21 AM
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=758
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on March 07, 2014, 11:52:02 PM
Talking trash under the net pen Steve. That link you posted should come with TP. Thanks for the chuckle.


"NOAA has a chonic case of anal-cranial inversion. At a time when Canadians and others are looking to go from open water-net pen aquaculture to land-based contained facilities due to problems of feed loss, antibiotic and pesticide/herbicide use with net pens, and the continual problem of escapes, NOAA make the outrageous claim that marine cages are the future of aquaculture. This is pure nonsense and is not based on fact, but rather what NOAA perceives as its regulatory jurisdiction.

I am sure fish farm critics see problems with feed loss, antibiotic and pesticide/herbicide use with net pens.  That's the problem - they see lots of things, make things up to make them more real or use exaggeration.

Quote
"There are only two instances of the word 'disease' in this 170 page report; one in a section discussing the fact that marine mammals may stress caged fish and result in greater disease in the farmed fish, the other in a sentence referring to the notion that wild fish in tropical regions might contract diseases when they congregate around aquaculture cages. I realize this is only a "comprehensive review of some predominant environmental risks" but I think the conclusion is a bit premature and the headline just a tad overstated."

On the other hand, you will see the word "disease" used many, many more times in anti-fish farm propaganda.  If you use the word enough times it makes it more scary I guess.  Being informative is not consideration.


Quote
"Absolutely mind-boggling to think it's "environmentally safe." I totally agree with Zeke Grader's comments. Also, it's shameful that NOAA is not concerned with the health of the oceans, ecosystems and the livelihood of the fishermen. I reckon taking orders from the Department of Commerce is the reason NOAA published this report; business as usual."

Yeah, must be another conspiracy brewing.  Way to go for providing a reference for this, TB....lol.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on March 08, 2014, 11:56:41 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576088/DDT-salmon-Pesticide-discovered-farmed-fish-sale-five-major-British-supermarkets.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 08, 2014, 07:00:06 PM
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=258&article_id=104240
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on March 08, 2014, 07:15:26 PM
Steve.... Actually not that I'm too excited to continue a conversation but they can be removed from the water.... Everything you listed can't easily be moved or engineered

And yes bob, farmed anything is not as good as anything natural. Beef is a huge example which aquapaloosa can vouche for... Grass fed beef contains the same good fats and cholesterol as wild fish. It's why Argentinians do not have the same heart problems as North Americans.  It's why sipping from the tit of your mother is better than anything called formula


What I got from that article is that eating is probably good for you. If you starve yourself it's probably not good for you or your brain. So if you have a chance reply on a full stomach  :)

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 09, 2014, 09:14:02 AM
http://grist.org/sustainable-food/in-argentina-factory-farms-replacing-grass-fed-beef/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on March 09, 2014, 10:41:41 AM
Nice too see they already despise the North American way of feeding cows. I forwarded the link to my Argentinian colleagues. Guess they can't brag as much anymore. Thanks for the link bob
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 10, 2014, 08:44:16 AM
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/dfo-fudging-the-numbers-court-finds-bars-commercial-fishery-off-vancouver-island/article17391117/?service=mobile
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on March 10, 2014, 09:09:43 AM
Absolutely terrible headline........should read Fisheries minister overrides DFO recommendation to not open fishery.........typical of the political slant of that newspaper.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 18, 2014, 09:40:39 PM
Only in BC?
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=258&article_id=104409
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 21, 2014, 07:38:45 AM
Another closed containment fail.
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=258&article_id=104473
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on March 21, 2014, 09:57:04 AM
it's not a fail in principal robert. the power went out, due to an equipment failure.

kind of like the people in ontario who took food out of their freezer and put it in the snow outside so it didn't go bad.

I think this analogy sums up open pen farming nicely.... so mankind is basically taking a dump in your sink, all the pollution the industrial development, poor waste water treatment etc etc... just bad.  but the thing is theres no toilet, so its gotta go in the sink.    now open pens farms are like you urinating on that turd sitting in the sink.  sure it's definitely not as bad as that turd laying on the bottom of your sink. it will be easier to clean up and the damage won't linger as long as that turd.

so really, do you "need" to be urinating on that turd?  can't you just go on the grass?  ;D

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 21, 2014, 12:41:03 PM
Take your pick :)
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/if-you-were-a-salmon-ocean-raised-or-land-based/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on March 21, 2014, 02:39:14 PM
it's not a fail in principal robert. the power went out, due to an equipment failure.

Actually, it is a fail, and one that illustrates one of the highest risks of tank farming. Even with claimed triple redundancy the system was not sufficiently reliable to bring the crop to market. This isn't a one-off either. The last crop through the Nanaimo tank farm built by Hagensborg was completely lost due to the same problem and the majority of the first crop being grown in the operation near Campbell River was also lost to equipment failure. Raising fish in tanks is not only a biological proposition but also an economic proposition and the significant risk of equipment failure needs to be factored in to the economic analysis of the viability of farming fish in tanks.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on March 21, 2014, 06:44:18 PM
Yes exactly, I guess you never fell when you learned how to ride your bike, and I'm sure the open penners were batting 100% off the bat. I guess an open pen farm has never had to cull any fish either.

“We believed we had an extremely robust electrical system with three levels of redundancy. We lost power after an extremely unusual sequence of events, unlike anything I’ve experienced in my 25 years in the business,”

ok, stop the entire development of this process.........


bob, I'm not eating either.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 21, 2014, 07:20:50 PM
Leaner and greener
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/03/140319-salmon-farming-sustainable-aquaculture/?now=2014-03-19-00:01#
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on March 21, 2014, 08:40:43 PM
Yes exactly, I guess you never fell when you learned how to ride your bike, and I'm sure the open penners were batting 100% off the bat. I guess an open pen farm has never had to cull any fish either.

“We believed we had an extremely robust electrical system with three levels of redundancy. We lost power after an extremely unusual sequence of events, unlike anything I’ve experienced in my 25 years in the business,”

ok, stop the entire development of this process.........


bob, I'm not eating either.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the dead fish. It's a simple concept really. When you set a goal there are but two possible outcomes. You either succeed in accomplishing it or you fail; clearly they failed. It doesn't matter if the operator "hadn't seen anything like it in 25 years". He still failed at bringing his crop to market.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on March 21, 2014, 08:48:50 PM
You want fail look up fishfarming in Chile. Or look up fishfarmer bawb ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on March 22, 2014, 02:46:00 AM
I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the dead fish. It's a simple concept really. When you set a goal there are but two possible outcomes. You either succeed in accomplishing it or you fail; clearly they failed. It doesn't matter if the operator "hadn't seen anything like it in 25 years". He still failed at bringing his crop to market.

and the probable hundreds of occurences of open pen farmers FAILING to bring their crops to market???  shouldn't that mean the process should be abandoned as well? 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on March 22, 2014, 07:07:36 AM
I think you have to weigh the successes against the failures.  In the case of open pen salmon farms the percentage of successes so far exceeds the percentage of failure so  that over all it is successful and continues to succeed.
If you do the same with closed containment failure vs success the overall results are not the same.  Not even close.  Close containment continues to have the ability to find investment money but never really seams to pay any of it back.  This keeps happening time and time again.
It is an interesting time in the debate.  With many great returns last year of various salmon runs and this years forecast it is no wonder the anti salmon farming campaign is fairly quiet.  There just sitting back waiting to pounce I sure when one of the runs doesn't meet the prediction.
Its no wonder Morton has changed her toon to other topics other than salmon demise and virus testing.  Tough times for activist I guess.lol
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on March 22, 2014, 08:13:32 AM
and the probable hundreds of occurences of open pen farmers FAILING to bring their crops to market???  shouldn't that mean the process should be abandoned as well?

Has someone suggested abandoning anything?

They are welcome to continue trying so long as they can continue to find funds to do so. There are a couple of points you need to bear in mind though.

- success isn't just predicated on bringing a crop to market but rather on bringing it to market at a profit and at a scale that has the potential to replace open pen farming. To date, that hasn't been accomplished anywhere.

- in the absence of government loans and private foundation grants, replacing the sunk costs of a loss such as this eats up all the potential profits for the next five years assuming they can produce and turn over five successive crops at a 20% profit margin, a rather optimistic outlook given the high costs and high risks of the method. This translates into a best case scenario of an effective six years with no return on investment.

- wanting something to work has absolutely no bearing on the likelihood of it doing so.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on March 22, 2014, 05:12:01 PM
I think you have to weigh the successes against the failures.  In the case of open pen salmon farms the percentage of successes so far exceeds the percentage of failure so  that over all it is successful and continues to succeed.
If you do the same with closed containment failure vs success the overall results are not the same.  Not even close.  Close containment continues to have the ability to find investment money but never really seams to pay any of it back.  This keeps happening time and time again.
It is an interesting time in the debate.  With many great returns last year of various salmon runs and this years forecast it is no wonder the anti salmon farming campaign is fairly quiet.  There just sitting back waiting to pounce I sure when one of the runs doesn't meet the prediction.
Its no wonder Morton has changed her toon to other topics other than salmon demise and virus testing.  Tough times for activist I guess.lol

yes you are correct, but your also comparing a fairly new way of raising salmon compared to the decades of experience open pens have had. lets also not forget the growing pains open pen farms have had with virus issues, sea lice, on going pollution, structural problems withe pen materials, predation...... right now your comparing gas mileage of a 1978 chev blazer with a 350 vs a with an eco boost ford focus.

if open pen farms are going to continue to receive various funding from governmental organizations then closed containment should also continue receiving possibly delerious investing.... even if its scewed.

morton is crazy, and I don't think you have to be an activist per se to thnk that theres a better way to raise salmon than in a pen in the ocean.

absolon.... there is a higher risk such as the the power outage article that open pen fars are not going to have because they sit in the ocean.  They are also not on the hook financialy for potential environental damage.  they are also subsidized in the event of a disease outbreak.  Thats the most brilliant business model possible other than cutting cocaine.
The rules for calculating compensation, including maximum amounts, are

 http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2000-233/page-1.html#h-2

its going to be a while, dare I say a few more failures before it is profitable. or until the costs go up for having a pen sitting in the ocean... I searched for a very long time and i could'nt find any actual costs farms pay to sit in the water and if there are environmental 'permits'. I read through the bc aqualculture license regulations and there are many 'measures' in place and there are no consequences. and consequences only listed in the fisheries act..... which reads as though none could apply to a farm.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2010-270/index.html

and this is a list of farms located in BC. its a rather large list. If you factored in an environmental tax like you have with the goverment wanting to impose carbon tax these open pen deals aren't so lucrative. other than reading about a farm being fined for killing sea lions in nets.  no environmental costs that I can find are imposed on farms.  tough to beat that financial advantage.
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/licence-permis/docs/finfish-pisciculture-eng.html

this coming from a fisherbob-esque link.

Fish Farms reel in another $400 million in Canadian subsidies
On another aquaculture front, you may be even more unhappy to know Shea announced $400 Million in gifts to the aquaculture sector in Canada last week.  That’s a lot of dead, diseased fish. I have asked her for $400 million be given to the commercial, sport and processing sectors in BC that provide 600% more in contribution to gross provincial product than fish farms. I’ll let you know.

Fish, profits turn to mush
And fish farms in BC have been losing money. Mainstream lost money in 2012. Marine Harvest has lost money in the last few years, too, largely due to Kudoa, a fungal disease that cost them $12,000,000 in 2012 – and just prior, in 2011, things were so bad they laid off 60 employees – right before Christmas. Nice guys.

Kudoa results in myoliquifaction that makes farmed fish into mush. Would you buy salmon you had to put in a container with a spoon?

Grieg losing money, drowning sea lions
Oh, and then there is Grieg. They got IHN too, last year, in their Cullodon site in Sechelt. Fortunately, we did not have to pay for that as well. Grieg is also the company that had to pay a fine of $100,000 for drowning 65 – 75 sea lions in their Skuna Bay nets in 2010 – they tarted up that site to sell to the unsuspecting in the USA as environmentally-sustainable, organic farmed salmon. Where is PETA when you need them?

Grieg has also been losing money:

In Canada, the company cut losses, with a negative ebit [sic] before fair value adjustment of the biomass of NOK 2.71/kg, compared to a loss of NOK 8.22/kg in the same quarter of 2012.
And the kicker? Cermaq is owned 59.2% by the government and thus the people of Norway. Why do we give another government our money for their killing our fish in our ocean rather than raising their fish on land in closed containers? This does not make sense.

Ask Shea for BC’s $400 million. We can spend it on habitat restoration, something DFO has been sadly remiss about in BC for decades. This year’s total DFO habitat projects for BC is a measly $900,000, only 2.6% of our own money Ottawa sent to diseased fish farms in BC.

http://commonsensecanadian.ca/canadian-taxpayers-bail-norwegian-fish-farms-diseased-fish/

doesn't read like they are raking in the profits.


Salmon Farming in British Columbia:
Industry Evolution and Government Response
By David Conley, M.Sc.
http://www.aquacomgroup.com/Page_sections/About_us/documents/BC_Salmon_Ind_Evol-r.pdf

The Entrepreneurial Phase, 1985-89
 
From 10 farms at the end of 1984, the industry grew to 119 farms in 1987 and to 140 farms in 1989. At its
peak the industry was comprised of about 100 companies, decreasing to 75 by August of 1989. Total
industry production went from 100 metric tonnes in 1985 to 12,400 metric tonnes in 1989. This rapid
growth created a number of problems which have tainted the industry ever since.
 
The attitude of the provincial government of the day toward salmon farming was one of “laissez-faire”. It
had no intention of hindering the growth of the new industry, nor did it provide any help in the way of
economic incentives, planning or policies to facilitate orderly growth as the Norwegians had done.
 
The Marine Resources Section of the Ministry of Environment was responsible for advising BC Lands on
site capability but the Ministry failed to formulate any land use planning for the industry. Staff was few and,
like the industry, relatively inexperienced in the biophysical realities that defines a successful salmon
farming site. Although they were able to eliminate the obviously bad sites, it was largely up to the
prospective farmer to determine the suitability of a site.
 
This opened up an exploitive situation where unscrupulous consultants acquired Investigative Permits
from BC Lands to examine the suitability of potential farm sites and then sold them to prospective salmon
farmers as fulfilling the necessary biophysical criteria. This speculation in and consequent use of unproved
farm sites had devastating results for some fledgling companies.
 
The influx of investors and entrepreneurs between 1985 and 1987 created a “gold rush” mentality, which
blinded people to the realities of the industry. Salmon farming in BC, despite its existence since the early 1970s, was still in a learning stage and relatively unproved for large volume production."

..........."Diseases, such as Bacterial Kidney Disease (BKD), vibriosis and marine anaemia, took a large toll during
this period. Attempts to maximize capital investment by holding fish at high densities only served to
maximize stress for the Pacific salmon, resulting in severe disease outbreaks. The industry averaged
losses of 30% of its production per year and some farms suffered losses as high as 70% in a given year.
Handling and grading also brought on outbreaks of disease.
 
The lack of trained farm staff with skills in fish health and fish husbandry, combined with a shortage of
veterinarians experienced in fish disease diagnosis and treatment, compounded the problems. Antibiotics
were applied in feeds to stem the losses but were ineffective because sick fish stop eating. This
challenged the industry and research institutions to find better ways to detect and monitor disease
organisms, as well as to develop preventative strategies, such as vaccination, to provide long term
protection for the fish.
 
In addition to disease problems, the Sunshine Coast was prone to nearly annual episodes of plankton
blooms that killed the farmed Coho and Chinook in great numbers. The recurring blooms caused salmon
farmers to leave the Sunshine Coast, beginning in 1987 and accelerating through 1988-89. Most migrated
north to the Campbell River / Desolation Sound area while others went to the west coast of Vancouver
Island in the area of Clayoquot Sound. These regions had cooler summer water temperatures and less
likelihood of blooms. More important, the new areas were less populated, which reduced possible conflicts
with other resource users"

and look what open pen farming has developed into.  I think it may be erronous to expect closed containment to fail.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on March 22, 2014, 09:33:36 PM
You're welcome to all of your opinions, and to all your hopes for closed containment. It matters not whether your perspective is realistic or not.

Those opinions don't change the fact that this particular instance was a fail and don't change the fact that after some 40 years of trying, no-one has been able to commercialize this kind of growout system for salmon. The laws of the applicable physics conflict with the laws of the applicable biology, and until that little dilemma is resolved, no-one is going to make this work.

It also doesn't change the fact that this kind of failure has a tremendous impact on the financial viability of the companies pursuing it, a cost that has so far been covered by grants, defaulted loans and investments that eat considerable investor capital. It is an extremely risky proposition.  No-one is suggesting that people shouldn't try to make it work, but personally, I'm not going to invest in it............ Are you?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on March 23, 2014, 08:11:51 AM
absolon. in all honesty my opinion does feel unrealistic.  To expect a process to change only because "it's good for the environment" will probably never happen.

like you said there is no comparison in profit margins between the two ways of raising salmon to market..... you can't give potential envronmental damage a dollar value to insert in a formula.

and with that, the two can never be compared equally.... my thoughts are that marketing of a closed containment product is what is going to help make them more viable. consumer education.

would I invest in personally. well I believe I am with the taxes I pay.  along with a host of things I disagree with.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on March 23, 2014, 10:37:14 AM
What kind of whine goes with mushy chemical dripping net penned salmon? :-\

Whine away.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on March 23, 2014, 10:41:56 AM
Conley's paper on the history of the industry is an interesting read. I was involved in the "gold rush" days of the industry as one of the first of the trained group of workers trying to bring some rationality to the pursuit of riches and can attest that he is mostly accurate in his summation. As he suggests, as a consequence of the work of anti-farm activists, public opinion and understanding hasn't kept pace with the development of the industry and has resulted in an extremely unproductive conflict between the ideals and opinions of the activists and the real on the ground consequences of the industry. That conflict isn't going to be resolved until it is focused on the "realities" instead of the "potentials" and it certainly isn't going to be resolved by online pissing matches in sport fishing forums.

A Danish friend ran the Hagensborg tank farm and I had a good deal of both personal and business involvement with the operation so I am quite familiar with the requirements for making those operations work. I watched the operation eat between 20 and 30 million dollars of investor money including 3/4 of a million dollars of public money before it's eventual demise and since it is about a kilometer from my home, have kept close track of the various subsequent attempts to make it viable since then. It is currently operating as an algae farm with some space leased to to an investor funded operation trying to develop cultivation techniques for Black Cod. The only reason it is still in existence is that the current owner acquired it at pennies on the dollar and used largely Indian Affairs money to acquire those pennies with the stated intent to use it as a shellfish depuration facility. That lasted until the non-native owner screwed over his native partners and walked away with full ownership and a good beating. It is not a pretty business nor a particularly ethical one.

I understand your sentiments about funding those things you disagree with. I, along with everyone else, am funding the attempts by Harper to remake this country in his own image, Charter of Rights and the underclasses be damned.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on March 23, 2014, 12:36:18 PM
well, it is what it is, I suppose.  At least theres crazy morton to keep them the most highly regulated in the world.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on March 23, 2014, 07:57:08 PM
At least theres crazy morton to keep them the most highly regulated in the world.

And that may be her legacy.  Not so bad ..
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on March 23, 2014, 10:02:35 PM
And that may be her legacy.  Not so bad ..

Damning with faint praise.... Colour me shocked
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 24, 2014, 07:59:15 AM
"Despite some desperate efforts by a small, extreme segment of the environmental movement to try to convince the general public and the mainstream media that ocean-based salmon farming is destroying wild fish and the environment in general, some international environmental organizations and national media outlets are taking an interest in the subject, and finding the situation to be quite different."

http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=37&article_id=104509

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/salmon-farming-gets-leaner-and-greener
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on March 24, 2014, 07:35:50 PM
"If you are farming fish that eat fish, you are reducing the amount of fish available for humans to eat. Farmed salmon are dreadful for feeding people and for protecting ocean health, though they might make good business sense," said Sharpless.


Thanks for the post Bawby

I already knew that though. People will do anything to make some money. Even shamelessly promote a badly run industry like open pen fish farming. :-\
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 25, 2014, 11:54:49 AM
Take from the commons?
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/take-from-the-commons-or-try-something-different-its-a-good-question/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 26, 2014, 10:37:02 AM
Looks like Doc Morton will not be out of work any time soon. :)
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/new-jobs-created-stronger-rules-say-bc%E2%80%99s-salmon-farmers
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 28, 2014, 03:28:57 PM
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=81&article_id=104668

"By anti-salmon farming activist Alexandra Morton: I will comment more later, but that was a very, very difficult day. I was unable to communicate the risks, so much so I had to ask one of them after if I had been called a "liar". It was very disappointing. (Alexandra Morton on Facebook)"
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on March 28, 2014, 05:27:03 PM
Well now the have good old "Nancy " piping up for fish farms. How a skier turned senator makes a good committee member on any kind of farming seems skeptical. Maybe some perks from the Salmon farming industry?

By Nancy Greene-Raines, the only Committee member from B.C.:

On January 2, 2009, Greene took her seat as a Conservative member of the Senate of Canada

Thanks for posting that odourous link FarminFishbawb.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on March 28, 2014, 05:31:10 PM
http://www.vancouversun.com/business/company+applies+sell+genetically+modified+salmon+Canada/9601660/story.html


MMM MMM mm tasty.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on March 28, 2014, 05:36:16 PM
While some other people try to get it right.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/David+Suzuki+helps+develop+insect+based+fish+food+with+Video/9040019/story.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on March 28, 2014, 05:47:48 PM
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=81&article_id=104668

"By anti-salmon farming activist Alexandra Morton: I will comment more later, but that was a very, very difficult day. I was unable to communicate the risks, so much so I had to ask one of them after if I had been called a "liar". It was very disappointing. (Alexandra Morton on Facebook)"
I honestly feel sorry for Almo as her passion for wild fish is obvious, just majorly misdirected in the causes of their decline.  I think this Senate fact finding tour might slow her anti salmon farm fear mongering, and that of her followers, considerably.
Alex, time to do something important … start advocating for the low population salmonid stocks that are going to be overfished this late summer, when the PSC/DFO will be intensely lobbied by all user groups to harvest what they think is their share of returning Shuswap sockeye.
 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 31, 2014, 07:41:04 AM
Why Greenpeace can’t – and won’t – ever be taken seriously

http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/why-greenpeace-cant-and-wont-ever-be-taken-seriously/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on March 31, 2014, 10:49:50 AM
Seriously,I think your speaking about yourself and that hate website you keep referring to. :-\


Meanwhile on the proactive side of things some are doing what mega-doses of SLICE (pesticide) fed to farmed salmon are failing at.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/03/27/can-cute-fish-solve-sea-lice-problem-vexing-salmon-farms
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on March 31, 2014, 05:25:18 PM
It never hurts to look forward and try something new TB. Thanks for the link. :)

http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/why-greenpeace-cant-and-wont-ever-be-taken-seriously/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 01, 2014, 07:13:51 AM
Keep the SLICE coming Bawb. How's things at the net pen? Same old same old, nothing new, getting any deals on the mushy ones?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 01, 2014, 07:51:53 AM
Keep the SLICE coming Bawb. How's things at the net pen? Same old same old, nothing new, getting any deals on the mushy ones?

Too funny TB. Do you still believe in the tooth fairy? :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 01, 2014, 07:36:28 PM
"What has she ever done that was actually “for” wild salmon?"
http://protestingtheprotesters.wordpress.com/tag/alexandra-morton/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on April 02, 2014, 06:28:17 AM
well I believe she has never tossed a bouncing betty on the fraser.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 02, 2014, 04:36:12 PM
http://www.bcsalmonfacts.ca/#!/fact/first-nations
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 03, 2014, 11:10:45 AM
http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Loblaws+first+offer+responsiblyfarmed+certified+Atlantic+salmon/9600590/story.html

Meanwhile Fishfarmbawb shovels the SLICE into the netpens. :P
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 03, 2014, 11:47:45 AM
http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Loblaws+first+offer+responsiblyfarmed+certified+Atlantic+salmon/9600590/story.html

Meanwhile Fishfarmbawb shovels the SLICE into the netpens. :P

Just an observation, but it looks like you are simply dribbling on your own shoes with your comment, while at the same time promoting Norwegian farmed salmon. Good for you TB, that is a start in the right direction :). Its also nice to see that Loblaws gives the consumer a choice.
  "Melanie Agopian, senior director of seafood sustainability with the supermarket chain, said only one Atlantic fish farm in Norway has been approved by the group, which introduced the standards late last year."
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 04, 2014, 07:45:04 AM
Speaking of dribbling shouldn't you be dribbling some chem on the penstock. I'd hate to read about truckloads of dead fish coming from the farm your at because you waste time on the internet. :-\


" only one Atlantic fish farm in Norway has been approved by the group" wonder why bawb, read the article and learn what you are doing wrong. :P
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 04, 2014, 11:44:29 AM
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/cbs_60_minute_backgrounder_salmon_farming_in_bc.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on April 04, 2014, 08:09:17 PM
saw some nice half pink grey farmed atlantic salmon tonite at costco that I wouldn't even feed my dog ! and the price yikes ! shoulda took a pic !
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on April 04, 2014, 10:04:58 PM
saw some nice half pink grey farmed atlantic salmon tonite at costco that I wouldn't even feed my dog ! and the price yikes ! shoulda took a pic !

Grey like a naturally occurring white spring perhaps.  Should posted a picture.  Ill try to drum up some yucky white spring flesh photos to compare and Ill bet the white spring will look far worse yet there is nothing wrong with a white spring.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on April 04, 2014, 10:07:08 PM
saw some nice half pink grey farmed atlantic salmon tonite at costco that I wouldn't even feed my dog ! and the price yikes ! shoulda took a pic !
Yeah, a picture would have helped your argument against farmed salmon.  Expensive was it?  How much was halibut? How much was fresh coho, chinook, or sockeye? Oh wait, there is none ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 05, 2014, 10:39:02 AM
Are we sportfishers hypocrites? Or just out of touch with history and what is happening on the west coast today.

http://msc.khamiahosting.com/sites/default/files/Timeline%20of%20Atlantic%20salmon%20in%20Pacific.pdf
"1958: Atlantic salmon successfully introduced into Hosmer Lake in Oregon, in the Deschutes River sub basin of the Columbia River.9 The population is maintained by hatchery spawning which continues to this day."
  I can just see American born Doc Morton doing a face palm lol. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on April 05, 2014, 07:15:13 PM
Yeah, a picture would have helped your argument against farmed salmon.  Expensive was it?  How much was halibut? How much was fresh coho, chinook, or sockeye? Oh wait, there is none ;D

I can waite for wild salmon it to be in season but.... that slimey looking over priced atlantic stuff is like yuk ! it was $27 for1 fillet didnt look at the price per kg
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 05, 2014, 07:49:29 PM
I can waite for wild salmon it to be in season but.... that slimey looking over priced atlantic stuff is like yuk ! it was $27 for1 fillet didnt look at the price per kg
A simple picture would have made more sense. Was it farmed in the US? May I suggest you go back, and back up your feelings with a picture.  :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on April 05, 2014, 08:59:53 PM
A simple picture would have made more sense. Was it farmed in the US? May I suggest you go back, and back up your feelings with a picture.  :)

maybe next time bawb..... go to costco and look at it for ur self to see if u would feed it to ur family
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 05, 2014, 09:51:23 PM
maybe next time bawb..... go to costco and look at it for ur self to see if u would feed it to ur family
Sorry but I live 4hrs drive from a costco. A picture and the origin of the salmon you speak of would be nice to back up your feelings. :)
http://www.undercurrentnews.com/2013/09/25/farmed-salmon-beats-wild-in-washington-post-taste-test/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on April 06, 2014, 07:35:50 AM
feelings don't need to be backed up with facts. arguments, yes definitely.  but not feelings.  I think someone is allowed to feel a certain way.


that link you posted would be like people saying they prefer the tast of 'regular' grain fed beef as opposed to natural grass fed beef.... that gamey flavour is too much for a few.

..."When standout flavors were detected, it was not in a good way. A couple of samples had off-flavors that were picked up by some tasters, but not by all."

I have also never tasted fish that was "off" generally my mom told me eating things that are "off" are probably bad.

also the winner is packed in a salt solution...... and you have two restaraunt guys, a pro fish farm corporate guy, and three jabronis who work for the paper that are happy for a free lunch.... that taste test is about as scientific as ms.mortons work.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on April 06, 2014, 08:33:01 AM
I have been told the Atlantic's sold in the Abbotsford Costco are imported from Chile.  Perhaps an interested reader shopping there could confirm that by checking the packaging or asking the manager.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 07, 2014, 01:41:32 PM
Doc Morton starts her yearly migration. :)
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/ms-morton-using-misinformation-spread-fear-about-farm-raised-salmon
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Easywater on April 08, 2014, 06:46:23 PM
Keep up the good work, Bob.

That dollar per post is going to pay off someday...
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on April 08, 2014, 07:32:25 PM
Keep up the good work, Bob.

That dollar per post is going to pay off someday...

Translation:  I don't agree with fisher bob so I will call him a shill the nicest way I know how.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 08, 2014, 08:40:21 PM
Huckster actually you know what that means? :-\
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 11, 2014, 05:39:03 AM
Translation:  I don't agree with fisher bob so I will call him a shill the nicest way I know how.

Translation- I'm a shill too! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 11, 2014, 03:05:08 PM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/salmon-farmer-achieves-gold-sustainability-standard
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on April 11, 2014, 05:44:34 PM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/salmon-farmer-achieves-gold-sustainability-standard


just more propaganda by the farmers !
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on April 11, 2014, 06:13:09 PM

just more propaganda by the farmers !

  ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 14, 2014, 07:50:11 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-bQn9DtgUA
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 18, 2014, 07:14:25 AM
Some good news for you NB. It looks like salmon farming is helping. :)

http://www.worldfishingnetwork.com/news/post/atlantic-salmon-fishery-keeps-on-growing-on-east-coast
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 22, 2014, 03:49:08 PM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/04/22/farmed-salmon-is-only-3-of-global-aquaculture-production-so-why-is-it-all-we-ever-hear-about/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 23, 2014, 08:04:01 AM
Sweet Spring.
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/sweet-spring-finally-sprung/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 25, 2014, 08:56:01 AM
Yellow light or simple US marketing?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/26/verlasso-farmed-salmon-seafood-watch/2693365/

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/monterey-bay-flip-flops-farmed-salmon-sustainability
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 28, 2014, 04:29:58 PM
Myths ?
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/fish-farm-critics-repeat-myths
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on April 28, 2014, 04:56:18 PM
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=huckster

No matter how you SLICE it.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on April 29, 2014, 07:29:13 AM
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shill
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on April 29, 2014, 01:24:38 PM
People may think what they want, however I feel there is no harm in reading both sides of the story. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Easywater on April 30, 2014, 11:00:21 AM
A suprisingly balanced article from David Suzuki:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/david-suzuki/farmed-salmon_b_5235800.html

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 01, 2014, 09:10:23 AM
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/kuterra-salmon-already-failing-the-taste-test/

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/fish-farm-critics-repeat-myths
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on May 01, 2014, 11:17:05 AM
bob that article is ridiculous man. seriously. one guy says he doesn't like the flavour.  it's muddy.  hahaha wow.  you talk about supporting facts and all that. and then you post this..... i'm sure he is a michelin rated chef of course.  probably moonlights as a marine biologist in his spare time.

it's like a 5 year old saying they like frozen chicken fingers better than a roasted organic free range chicken.  because it tastes better dipped in bbq sauce.

your continued posts from said sites, (which are getting less and less articulate as the months go by) also help to support the grass roots movement.  it is creating an under-dog feeling.  and you as well as I know that everyone cheers for the under dog.

you have these foreign owned corporations, receiving hand outs of my tax money, while they pollute the environment. constantly talking about the 'truth and 'facts' and you post biased opinions camouflaged as the "truth about alaska salmon"

makes it real real easy to cheer for morton. even though she's crazy.... real easy
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 01, 2014, 01:01:46 PM
May I suggest the ones that are crying for closed containment go to Safeway way and try it for them selves. I would like to hear the review. Doc Morton should be on top of this already hehe :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on May 01, 2014, 02:48:41 PM
what did you think of it's flavour sir?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 01, 2014, 04:24:49 PM
I am waiting for Doc Morton's opinion of the taste. If its worth all that money perhaps TB and NB will try it out and let us know how it is. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 01, 2014, 04:35:19 PM
Or me, as I am curious now ...  If I can find some in our local Safeway I'll give it a try, and compare it to sea pen raised Atlantic's that I will purchase at the local Superstore.  Bob, I may be wrong but I don't think Almo endorses any type of farmed salmon, even CC.  Chris, you and her are tight- is she in favour of CC salmon farming??
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 01, 2014, 05:48:45 PM
Looks to me like Doc Morton should be doing the taste test :)
http://www.straight.com/news/alexandra-morton-applauds-bcs-first-closed-fish-farming-tank
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 01, 2014, 06:04:05 PM
Thanks for that Bob.  My guess is my taste test report will be before hers ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 02, 2014, 07:21:15 AM
"Ms. Morton urged the crowd at Centennial Square to demand that all B.C. salmon farms be moved from open water to closed containment systems on land."
"We can have our salmon farms on land and we can have our wild salmon back," she said. "We can have both."

Ask Doc Morton if the taste of this salmon is worth $36.90/kg. :)

"But a customer in Alberta, Canada, has provided The Truth About Alaska Salmon with their review: “a bit muddy, very soft and without flavor.” The customer couldn’t finish eating the fish as it left a “film on the teeth”. The only good news was that “the dogs really liked it!”
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/kuterra-salmon-already-failing-the-taste-test/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on May 02, 2014, 09:06:54 AM
I guess the albertans know their salmon..... with that easy access to both oceans I suppose.  :P




on a side note Dave.  I would be interested on how your going to cook em for your taste test.  Some people (myself included) cook different species of salmon different ways..... the way I cook pink is much different from coho... and cooking coho the same way I cook a pink doesn't bring out the best flavour of a coho...  maybe one of these closed pen guys, an open pen guy and a frozen coho if you have?

so what's your plan?  bbq with a lil olive oil, salt and pepper?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 02, 2014, 11:56:26 AM
I picked up 2 small kuterra fillets this morning; very pricey .... $15.56 for .390 kg.  The product is sold skin on, is very pale in color, much like chum or pink and is striated with fat, like other farmed Atlantic's.   I plan on removing the skin and cooking it the same way I nearly always cook salmon - fried in a very small amount of olive oil, sprinkled with seasoned salt and fresh pepper.
Will give a report this evening.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on May 02, 2014, 12:16:21 PM
Dave,  Were all the fish small or just the ones you chose?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 02, 2014, 03:44:11 PM
Dave,  Were all the fish small or just the ones you chose?
There were very few fillets available, the manager said they had only had this product for 3 days.  Judging by the size of the fillets I purchased, the fish would have been about 5 lbs, max maybe a bit smaller.  I asked the seafood manager if any other customers had commented on this product, and apparently no one had.  She did say the price was the same as net pen Atlantics ($3.99/100 g) and the store was probably losing money promoting these fish.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on May 02, 2014, 05:28:12 PM
Should catch your own Dave, sure they will cost a lot more but way better and healthier for you.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 02, 2014, 06:49:27 PM
Should catch your own Dave, sure they will cost a lot more but way better and healthier for you.

Time to get with the real world Chris ;)

Well, I suppose we didn't do a true taste test as there were no fresh wild Pacific's or fresh pen raised Atlantic's across the table from the kuterra farmed salmon, which was prepared in the manner earlier posted.  I was particularly interested in the comment that these fish tasted muddy and having some experience with poor tasting interior rainbow trout, I wanted to try this product for myself.
 Out of the bag the portions of fillets smelled fresh and were firm, not soft.  Absolutely no fishy smells, and the uncooked texture of this product was, imo, comparable to fresh farm raised salmon, or frozen Pacific's. 
So how was it? My wife Arleen and I agreed it was very good, with zero muddy taste, and comparable to pen raised Atlantic's , and the many Pacific's we have previously eaten.   It is certainly milder tasting than say a fresh caught coho or steelhead, and has a higher fat content. 
If this is the future of cc salmon farming, I say wow, good stuff!  Pricing and marketing?...   another question.
 Fwiw, I suggest this product could be improved by selling skinless portions. 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 02, 2014, 08:52:26 PM
Thank you Dave. It looks like my post was mud. Goes to show we can not believe every thing we read no matter what side it comes from. It is great to know there are people like you that are willing to do the extra step and comment on it. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 02, 2014, 10:22:38 PM
Most of your posts are like mud, but smellier. More like that stuff under the net pen. Hope your not going to do something crazy to the fish under your care because of what Dave posted. There is still a good chance Dave will still have to buy more of the net penned fish until he's weened off the SLICE. So don't start cranking it out on the penners hoping for addiction rates to go up.

BTW having had Atlantic farmed salmon and not the real thing it's hard to make a comparison.

Dave you OK  ;D what's gotten into you. But I have to admit I don't eat a lot of trout because of the taste. I should rename myself kokaneebreath. 8)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 03, 2014, 03:40:00 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.2628219
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on May 04, 2014, 07:05:15 AM
thanks for that Dave
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 14, 2014, 11:21:52 AM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/05/12/activist-alexandra-morton-lies-on-national-tv/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 20, 2014, 03:29:05 PM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/05/20/activist-alexandra-morton-makes-her-lie-even-bigger/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 21, 2014, 03:17:47 PM
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/environmentalism-has-become-a-religion/15033#.U30EdyjlyUl
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on May 21, 2014, 04:04:12 PM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/05/20/activist-alexandra-morton-makes-her-lie-even-bigger/
From Alex
Dear Dr. Penny Greenwood (CFIA):
 
I am writing to you because an anonymous blogger heckling me reports that:

"Dr. Greenwood, of the Canadian food agency, said that research to determine where one of Ms. Morton’s market-purchased samples came from produced conflicting accounts from people in the supply chain. Without a clear chain of custody, she said, there was no point testing the fish at all. She said there had been no attempt to cover up anything.
 
“We couldn’t even verify that that fish was in fact Canadian in origin,” she said”

http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/05/20/activist-alexandra-morton-makes-her-lie-even-bigger
 
I’m sorry, but I don’t recall having a conversation with you, or any correspondence on this. I don't recall anyone from the CFIA asking me where my samples have come from.
 
The Globe and Mail contacted Loblaws and they confirmed the fish I was buying came from a BC supplier.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/supermarket-salmon-test-positive-for-virus-found-in-europe/article4100831/
 
I would be happy to discuss where my samples have come from. If BC markets are selling Atlantic salmon from outside Canada - as BC farmed salmon, I think that would be something the CFIA might want to investigate.
 
In any case, I writing to let you know I welcome discussion with you on the source of the salmon I am sampling. I know the CFIA gets this information with each sample I submit, but if there is indeed confusion, this is something that would be easy to clear up.
 
Thank you for your consideration,
 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 21, 2014, 04:08:49 PM
Nice link, thanks Bob.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on May 21, 2014, 04:48:22 PM
From Alex
Dear Dr. Penny Greenwood (CFIA):
 
I am writing to you because an anonymous blogger heckling me reports that:

"Dr. Greenwood, of the Canadian food agency, said that research to determine where one of Ms. Morton’s market-purchased samples came from produced conflicting accounts from people in the supply chain. Without a clear chain of custody, she said, there was no point testing the fish at all. She said there had been no attempt to cover up anything.
 
“We couldn’t even verify that that fish was in fact Canadian in origin,” she said”

http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/05/20/activist-alexandra-morton-makes-her-lie-even-bigger
 
I’m sorry, but I don’t recall having a conversation with you, or any correspondence on this. I don't recall anyone from the CFIA asking me where my samples have come from.
 
The Globe and Mail contacted Loblaws and they confirmed the fish I was buying came from a BC supplier.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/supermarket-salmon-test-positive-for-virus-found-in-europe/article4100831/
 
I would be happy to discuss where my samples have come from. If BC markets are selling Atlantic salmon from outside Canada - as BC farmed salmon, I think that would be something the CFIA might want to investigate.
 
In any case, I writing to let you know I welcome discussion with you on the source of the salmon I am sampling. I know the CFIA gets this information with each sample I submit, but if there is indeed confusion, this is something that would be easy to clear up.
 
Thank you for your consideration,

Saying that your source is a Safeway or Superstore does not constitute a definite chain of custody. Saying it was a BC supplier sounds like a smoking gun but there is more to it than that.  It is not just where the fish ultimately came from but who handled it, how it was handled and where it was taken between the time the fish was killed to the time it arrived to the lab. In addition, saying that the Globe and Mail confirmed this should be taken with a grain of salt because how much investigative work did they do into the matter.  They may have well asked a Loblaw's spokesman, but there could always be more to the story that isn't discovered by even a journalist.  If there were conflicting accounts from people in the supply chain it doesn't bode well for the credibility of the samples. Basically, if you want to do credible, defensible work you need to put the effort in otherwise you get the response by people like Dr. Greenwood.   
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 22, 2014, 07:36:09 AM
Steve, that stuff you wrote is almost hilarious, except I think your serious. :-\
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on May 22, 2014, 08:02:43 AM
Of course this makes us very suspicious of what is going on at FOC as well as the FF issue,very sad this whole situation we are faced with related to fisheries and the hush hush from so many.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/ministers-say-salmon-not-being-restored-in-fraser-river/article18789252/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on May 22, 2014, 01:23:35 PM
Steve, that stuff you wrote is almost hilarious, except I think your serious. :-\

Not as funny as your ignorance on the subject.  In this case I am serious.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 22, 2014, 04:32:25 PM
The reply I expected ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on May 22, 2014, 06:02:44 PM
The reply I expected ;D
What is happening, no response to my post above, I guess you chaps are getting worn down. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 22, 2014, 07:59:25 PM
 What was your question?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on May 22, 2014, 08:03:12 PM
What was your question?
Response to this:

Of course this makes us very suspicious of what is going on at FOC as well as the FF issue,very sad this whole situation we are faced with related to fisheries and the hush hush from so many.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/ministers-say-salmon-not-being-restored-in-fraser-river/article18789252/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 22, 2014, 08:46:54 PM
Oh, that Cohen thing? ;D  Said at the very beginning it was a farce and the money would have been better spent on habitat restoration; instead we paid lawyer's mortgages ..
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 23, 2014, 12:32:47 PM
http://m.yourdoctorsorders.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yourdoctorsorders.com%2F2014%2F05%2Fsalmon-wild-v-farmed-how-an-alaska-native-learned-to-love-farm-salmon%2F&dm_redirected=true#2684
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 26, 2014, 12:34:15 PM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2013/01/18/alexandra-mortons-furunculosis-fable/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 26, 2014, 04:28:01 PM
http://www.returningtohope.com/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on May 26, 2014, 04:40:15 PM
One of your bests Bob :D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 26, 2014, 05:20:25 PM
One of your bests Bob :D
Thanks Dave :)
http://www.returningtohope.com/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 30, 2014, 08:41:09 AM
http://seafood.oregonstate.edu/.pdf%20Links/Farmed%20or%20Wild%20-%20Both%20Types%20of%20Salmon%20taste%20Good%20and%20Are%20Good%20For%20You.pdf

Could be a very good reason why salmon farming in Washington is not on the NGO's radar. :)
http://wfga.net/issues.php?ID=68
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 30, 2014, 10:46:45 AM
Kinda lame posting years old propaganda from the " global aquaculture advocate ". Also 14 year old tidbit of fluff Bawb. Get back to feeding SLICE to those fish under your care. Slacker.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 30, 2014, 10:55:17 AM
Who kills the wild salmon?
http://tholepin.blogspot.ca/2013/10/goa-chinook-under-heavy-bycatch.html?m=1

Btw TB. I do enjoy your presuming comments. Keep the parroting up. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on May 30, 2014, 02:17:30 PM
I'd hate to mention it again Bawb but it looks like the fish your looking after are getting a little licey. Better break out the extra strong SLICEy before things get dicey. With all the time you waste on the internet the pen net goes wanting for attention. Slacker.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on May 30, 2014, 03:35:26 PM
You do listen TB. You just did what I told you to do. Outstanding :) All you need to do is ask what I did for a living instead of making yourself sound silly TB. Unlike the AFF boys, I can answer a question.   
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on June 01, 2014, 02:41:43 PM
It's what you do now for a living. Not something you did (before) silly billy. Feed em SLICE slacker.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 01, 2014, 03:31:58 PM
http://protestingtheprotesters.wordpress.com/tag/alexandra-morton/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 06, 2014, 02:55:44 PM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/news-newsletters-and-blogs-interest-week-0
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on June 06, 2014, 03:40:46 PM
Good post Bob. I especially liked Dr. Kristi Miller's paper - exactly what was requested by Cohen.  I expect we will hear much more from her.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on June 13, 2014, 03:49:40 AM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/news-newsletters-and-blogs-interest-week-0
All put out by the pro side of the issue and just like government does all the time always right and never wrong and an answer for everthing. Just watch Question period when they answer questions from the opposition benches.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 13, 2014, 01:38:40 PM
News for the week. :)
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/news-and-blogs-interest-week-2
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on June 13, 2014, 03:11:11 PM
News for the beek:

The American biotech firm AquaBounty has applied for permission in Canada and the United States to market a fast-growing genetically engineered Atlantic salmon, but the company has faced opposition from environmental groups and a number of grocery store chains have said they will not sell GE fish.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on June 13, 2014, 04:32:22 PM
and your point is  ???
What has GE salmon to do with BC salmon farming practices?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on June 13, 2014, 08:24:13 PM
News for the beek:

The American biotech firm AquaBounty has applied for permission in Canada and the United States to market a fast-growing genetically engineered Atlantic salmon, but the company has faced opposition from environmental groups and a number of grocery store chains have said they will not sell GE fish.

Airball!!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 16, 2014, 10:40:58 PM
Tax pay out? Mr Bunker will love this one. :)
http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.2631964
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 17, 2014, 07:14:12 AM
Anything other than shill to contribute yet Bawb? How much do you get paid for disinformation?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 17, 2014, 09:27:10 AM
I knew you would like that one Bunker. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on June 17, 2014, 08:06:07 PM
Strange the things that amuse you Bawb. I know fishing with a rod isn't one of them. Anyway start feeding the dirty fish some SLICE it is sea lice season. In case you forgot.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 17, 2014, 09:49:31 PM
Since I've exposed that every one of his posts are feedlot droppings. Ma\ybe he should start a board for feedlotters as it's apparent that most sportsfisherman see the "fish farms" and the operators for what they are.And that all Bawb comes here for is to shill for them and nothing else.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 18, 2014, 07:46:55 AM
Since I've exposed that every one of his posts are feedlot droppings. Ma\ybe he should start a board for feedlotters as it's apparent that most sportsfisherman see the "fish farms" and the operators for what they are.And that all Bawb comes here for is to shill for them and nothing else.
I am more than happy that I give you some thing to do and you take the time to comment Arch. I think I have just as much right to voice my feelings as you do. If you want to muzzle me, simply start a vote thred. I promise to stop posting if I am voted out. How does that sound Bunker? :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on June 18, 2014, 10:43:32 AM
bob, even though we disagree on the ol farm subject. I am glad you are here to provide a different perspective.

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=33865.15
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 18, 2014, 11:07:08 AM
bob, even though we disagree on the ol farm subject. I am glad you are here to provide a different perspective.

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=33865.15
Thank you Banx. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on June 18, 2014, 12:37:52 PM
bob, even though we disagree on the ol farm subject. I am glad you are here to provide a different perspective.

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=33865.15
I do agree with Bob on salmon farming and hope he continues to post what he does.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 20, 2014, 06:40:16 PM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/news-and-events-interest-week
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on June 20, 2014, 08:59:37 PM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/news-and-events-interest-week


oh Bawb, quit posting the news u just wrote ! lol just kiddin
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 22, 2014, 09:00:49 AM
http://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/restore-wild-salmon-ban-salmon-feedlots-in-bc
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 23, 2014, 11:34:18 AM
Might just try this out. :)
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/farm-tours
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on June 23, 2014, 05:57:14 PM
Might just try this out. :)
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/farm-tours
Bob, if I lived closer I would be all over this. Sounds like a great way for people to see salmon farming first hand, talk to the operators, perhaps share your concerns, then listen to their side.  On site and on the water, as it should be :D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on June 23, 2014, 08:15:45 PM
Bob, if I lived closer I would be all over this. Sounds like a great way for people to see salmon farming first hand, talk to the operators, perhaps share your concerns, then listen to their side.  On site and on the water, as it should be :D

Bawb could post first hand pictures of him feeding them SLICE if he wanted, but he's holding back until it's "cool". Maybe a little extra help from yourself and other extra "fish experts" he can pull that off Dave. Thank God your retired. 8)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 24, 2014, 07:49:24 AM
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/a-fishy-tale/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 26, 2014, 03:02:56 PM
New regs.
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/bc-salmon-farmers-welcome-new-aquaculture-regulations

Over view.

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/bc-salmon-farmers-welcome-new-aquaculture-regulations
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 26, 2014, 08:34:02 PM
http://www.sierraclub.bc.ca/our-work/seafood-oceans/issues/salmon-farms
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 27, 2014, 06:00:20 AM
This should keep Bawb busy for months........

http://chickenonaraft.com/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on June 27, 2014, 07:57:55 AM
http://netrightdaily.com/2012/02/sierra-club-gets-in-bed-with-chesapeake-energy-for-a-mere-26-million/

http://foxriverwatch.com/sierra_club.html

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/19/local/la-me-sierra-club-20111119
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 29, 2014, 06:16:27 AM
http://www.ubcic.bc.ca/Resources/fishfarmpaper.htm#axzz3629ewtS8
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on June 29, 2014, 09:11:39 AM
http://arfd.gov.bc.ca/ApplicationPosting/viewpost.jsp?PostID=45267
http://www.tlatlasikwala.com/upcoming-opportunities.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 29, 2014, 10:45:23 AM
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v465/n7300/full/465869d.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on June 29, 2014, 02:48:02 PM
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v465/n7300/full/465869d.html
C'mon Nova, a 4 year old Chilean salmon farming story??  How is that relevant to BC salmon farming practices? Your chickenonaraft post was way better ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: chris gadsden on June 29, 2014, 08:19:04 PM
Another great rally today actually 2, will get some video up later, Dave has seen the pictures and I think he was impressed. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on June 30, 2014, 07:10:51 AM
C'mon Nova, a 4 year old Chilean salmon farming story??  How is that relevant to BC salmon farming practices? Your chickenonaraft post was way better ;)


Um, because a lot of the same companies are here.......And please don't try and tell me Bawb's self serving feedlot scatology is gospel.
BTW - That was Bawb's raft. Did you ask his permission before spending hours on it? ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 20, 2014, 06:15:36 PM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/noaa-aquaculture-source-sustainable-seafood

http://youtu.be/x4JP49GnR3c
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on July 21, 2014, 06:38:07 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1355936/Pollution-from-fish-farms-as-bad-as-sewage.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: GordJ on July 21, 2014, 08:14:14 AM
Was that article first published in 2000 or was that when it was re-published? At first I thought it was news but then I got to wondering if it had been re-circulated over and over and this was just the most recent iteration.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on July 21, 2014, 02:21:00 PM
Posts like this are a direct result of the mothership, Almo, taking on water ;D  Just wait, an anti will soon dredge up a 10 year old study on Irish (or Scottish or Nova Scotian , or ..., but never, ever Washington State) salmon farms and how pregnant women and small children should stand at least 10 feet back from any farmed salmon.

More importantly, what happened to troutbreath??  Miss the owly bugger ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on July 22, 2014, 05:59:44 AM
A fresher catch


http://www.vancouversun.com/business/NAFTA+oversight+group+calls+investigation+into+fish+farms/9868750/story.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on July 23, 2014, 01:26:45 PM
http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=10050284
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on July 24, 2014, 06:27:27 AM
https://wildernesscommittee.org/wild_salmon
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on July 24, 2014, 10:40:09 AM


An advocate for fisheries

Outspoken officer’s book calls for everyone to be accountable

 By Vancouver Sun, Vancouver Sun July 18, 2014

 Randy Nelson’s book describes the adventures and politics of being a fishery officer in B.C.


Combine a thirst for adventure with a dedication to conservation and a gift for innovative scheming, and you will have Randy Nelson, a fishery officer in B.C. In Poachers, Polluters & Politics, he tells of some of his most memorable moments at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) and expresses opinions about how we are succeeding and failing at protecting B.C.’s most important resource.Q You’ve had some pretty creative strategies for catching poachers. Do you have an all-time favourite?

A My favourite method of catching a poacher was chasing them down on foot (I ran a 2:32 marathon). I chased literally hundreds of poachers throughout my career. I learned to never catch them right away — run them until they dropped. I never got into a physical confrontation with anyone I chased; they were usually a pile of wheezing, gasping jelly by the time I caught them.

Q Your job was full of all sorts of dangers. Was there a specific threat — either human or natural — that worried you the most?

A Well, you can’t reason with a charging grizzly bear — but then again — you can’t reason with some of the people out there. I was stabbed in the chest, hit by a truck, had my shoulder broken with an oar, and nearly drowned (to name a few), but the most lasting threat I felt was an anonymous death threat I received at home. I often left on patrols leaving my wife and two infant daughters alone, wondering who’d made the threats and if they would ever come to the house.

Q As a fishery officer, you must have a lot of knowledge about aquaculture, and its effects on the wild salmon population. Do you think it is possible to build a sustainable aquaculture industry?

A The industry should be moved to closed containment. The effluent and chemicals that are being put into fish-bearing waters would land anyone else in court. Closed containment would be a sustainable industry and could expand into a worldwide model of environmental stewardship that any politician could boast about.

Q The Cohen Commission on Fraser River sockeye was announced in 2010. What has come out of this $26-million public inquiry?

A 1. Zero response to the public

2. Muzzling of the internal response prepared by DFO staff

3. Lifting the ban on aquaculture (contrary to the recommendations)

4. Shutting down the website without giving the public an official response — now that’s arrogantly alarming!

Most things work on a three-strike principle but that’s four and counting! I predict some form of response before the next federal election to try to put out some of the flames. I also predict the response will be filled with hollow promises and studies and a few committees.

Q If the DFO received additional funding for protecting our waterways, how would you like to see it allocated?

A The Cohen Commission came up with a number of recommendations that describe what needs to be done. I would also like to see B.C.’s habitat protection staff numbers reinstated. This would put control of our habitat back in the DFO, not the National Energy Board! I challenge the federal government to talk to me about a host of ideas that could save money and improve DFO. The current bureaucrats are too scared and filter the facts, much the same way beer becomes urine, or food becomes effluent.

Q You are rather outspoken about the federal government, and its handling of fisheries issues. How did you manage to stay out of trouble throughout your career?


A I tried to always stick to the facts, and hold on to them until a timely opportunity arose to present them to the right person. Holding people accountable applies as much to your supervisors as it does to your employees. I can honestly say I never got in trouble for sticking to that strategy, despite the many attempts that were made to “throw me under the bus” (a direct quote from a very senior person in Ottawa) after I testified and told the truth at the Cohen Commission.

Q What poses the most risk to our fish populations and waterways: poachers, polluters or politics?

A Everyone has an impact and until everyone admits that and stops pointing fingers we’re not likely to improve. All user groups, including the public and environmental groups, have become too complacent. Governments are experts at dividing the public so they can continue to procrastinate. I really can’t believe the lack of response to the Cohen Commission. If you haven’t spoke out and demanded a response, then you too are part of the risk to the resource.

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on July 24, 2014, 11:12:33 AM
A The industry should be moved to closed containment. The effluent and chemicals that are being put into fish-bearing waters would land anyone else in court. Closed containment would be a sustainable industry and could expand into a worldwide model of environmental stewardship that any politician could boast about.


BINGO!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 02, 2014, 07:25:51 AM
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=37&article_id=106796
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 02, 2014, 07:34:11 AM
Looks like we should put ourselves in closed containment Nova.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/no-swimming-advisories-at-3-vancouver-beaches-1.1923780
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 02, 2014, 07:48:32 AM
http://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/schools/law/lawreviews/journals/bcealr/27_1/03_TXT.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Easywater on August 02, 2014, 11:32:35 AM
http://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/schools/law/lawreviews/journals/bcealr/27_1/03_TXT.htm
Interesting...
"one fish farmer in Britain solved his sea lice infestation problem by throwing seven kilograms of onions into his fish cage every week."
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on August 02, 2014, 12:15:12 PM
Wonder if they were Sliced onions  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 02, 2014, 06:08:28 PM
Wonder if they were Sliced onions  ;D ;D ;D

Walla Walla sweets please, lightly caramelized in butter......
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on August 02, 2014, 10:56:46 PM
Quote
Q The Cohen Commission on Fraser River sockeye was announced in 2010. What has come out of this $26-million public inquiry?

3. Lifting the ban on aquaculture (contrary to the recommendations)

Where in the recommendations did Cohen recommend the banning of aquaculture in BC? When you read the recommendations it was specifically directed to the Discovery Island area.

From Cohen Final Report (Volume 3; Chapter 2: Recommendations, page 25):
14 Beginning immediately and continuing until at least September 30, 2020, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans should ensure that:
• the maximum duration of any licence issued under the Pacific Aquaculture Regulations for a net-pen salmon farm in the Discovery Islands (fish health subzone 3-2) does not exceed one year;
• DFO does not issue new licences for net-pen salmon farms in the Discovery Islands (fish health sub-zone 3-2); and
• DFO does not permit increases in production at any existing net-pen salmon farm in the Discovery Islands (fish health sub-zone 3-2).

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on August 02, 2014, 11:58:24 PM
http://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/schools/law/lawreviews/journals/bcealr/27_1/03_TXT.htm

Can you show me these studies that show that salmon farms cause toxic algae blooms, specifically off our coast?  When I look at one of the references (i.e. The costs of eutrophication from salmon farming: implications for policy) I don't see much mention of any actual scientific work which conclusively found that salmon farms caused toxic algal blooms. References in this section of the article you posted are strung along in a sequence that supposedly implicates salmon farms as the major culprit, but I can't find any referenced study that actually looked into this and produced data to back up those findings.

Additionally, there is no mention of the risk of toxic algal blooms to wild fish vs. the risk to farmed fish. Any brief mention of behavioural adaptations and avoidance of blooms are missing.  More importantly, there is no mention of the natural occurrence of toxic algal blooms off our coast and the other environmental conditions that come into play to create them.

This is the best report I could find on the subject which went into any detail:
http://www.whoi.edu/fileserver.do?id=39383&pt=2&p=29109

It seems like it may be possible that some localized enhancement of blooms could occur near fish farms, but there is no evidence (as of the year of the article which was 2007). It appears if farms were located in poorly flushed bays and inlets that nutrients released from farms could exacerbate blooms, but the fact is that sites here in BC are chosen with good water flow to reduce the risk of toxic blooms.  This is probably why these kills on fish farms here are not as common as some critics believe.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 03, 2014, 06:35:51 AM
Not to be talked about - It's on the "We can't talk about it" list.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/mark-hume/toxic-algae-may-be-killing-salmon-probe-told/article2133150/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on August 03, 2014, 08:24:11 AM
Not to be talked about - It's on the "We can't talk about it" list.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/mark-hume/toxic-algae-may-be-killing-salmon-probe-told/article2133150/
I'm aware of this from the Cohen. I'm not denying that toxic algae can kill marine life. What I'm asking is can you find me studies that implicate salmon farms as the cause of toxic algal blooms off our coast. This is what the article you posted did but is very vague on details. The researcher in the G&M article doesn't implicate salmon farms as the cause; instead talks about these blooms in general as possible cause for Fraser Sockeye declines.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 03, 2014, 09:11:53 AM
Hard to lift the Cone of Silence (or Cohen Of Silence :o)

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/tumblr_mfvqoy8D2B1rntnrzo1_500-300x198_zps3ae9d23c.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/tumblr_mfvqoy8D2B1rntnrzo1_500-300x198_zps3ae9d23c.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on August 03, 2014, 10:26:25 AM
Funny Nova, but you have not answered Steve's question.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 03, 2014, 01:38:32 PM
Funny Nova, but you have not answered Steve's question.


I wasn't aware there was a timed posting stipulation. I'll work on my response times by climbing into my Delorean and reading the forthcoming posts so I can have the response ready before any questions get asked.. ::) I'm sorry I can't get timely responses for 2 reasons -one is business is booming, sales are up over 50% from last year, number two is the government shutting everyone up or out. You pick.three- I just got back from dropping a bunch of materials and equipment for my upcoming work on Bowen this week. (You can meet me live and in person at Horseshoe Bay, 6AM, lane 69) If you can pry some info out of DFO, let me know who to call.  ;) Ooops - one too many.

Now I gotta go finish my pressure washing so I can fire up the scoot and go for a nice Sunday ride.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 04, 2014, 01:32:19 PM
http://www.bren.ucsb.edu/news/gaines_aquaculture_nceas.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: GordJ on August 04, 2014, 02:09:29 PM
http://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/schools/law/lawreviews/journals/bcealr/27_1/03_TXT.htm
Never Boinked'er (since you seem to like making fun of peoples names) I am curious why you have edited this to remove any reference to the date or the fact that it was written by a lawyer who seems to live in Boston? Does her lack of credentials in marine biology make her a kindred spirit with "Dr" Morton?
Or is it because it is a 15 year old study that actually involves American fish farms and has little relevance to salmon farming in the 21'st century in BC?
Here is the submission to the Boston College Law Review in its entirety. http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1219&context=ealr (http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1219&context=ealr)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: GordJ on August 04, 2014, 02:11:11 PM
OOPS
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 06, 2014, 05:20:45 AM
Never Boinked'er (since you seem to like making fun of peoples names) I am curious why you have edited this to remove any reference to the date or the fact that it was written by a lawyer who seems to live in Boston? Does her lack of credentials in marine biology make her a kindred spirit with "Dr" Morton?
Or is it because it is a 15 year old study that actually involves American fish farms and has little relevance to salmon farming in the 21'st century in BC?
Here is the submission to the Boston College Law Review in its entirety. http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1219&context=ealr (http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1219&context=ealr)

Well Gourd ( or do you prefer Gored? ;)) since that report has someone invented Pampers for fish? No you say? So the poo goes under the pens and does nothing but foul the ocean. That's a fact Jack. And the chemicals used to kill sea lice, the antibiotics and all the other crap involved in the feedlot business have been replaced with biodegradable fairy dust, imported from Middle Earth. Carry on! ( Are you Bawb's supervisor at the feedlot? :o)
BTW - That report echoes mine and others concerns.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 06, 2014, 08:01:32 AM
Sorry Bawb - I forgot you:

http://www.sustainoursounds.org.nz/seabed-pollution/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on August 06, 2014, 06:39:08 PM
global news was talking about a die off on griege's fish farm... an algae bloom apparantly.  ms.morton believes otherwise.... talked about pumping dead fish 6 days ago, and red spots on the belly of those still alive.

steward hawthorn says its misinformation.

what would cause red spots and be harmless?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on August 06, 2014, 08:13:12 PM
I caught the last of that on TV banx ... way more information needed to make any informed opinions but here are 2 possible reasons for the red spots ...
the fish are dying from this bloom, bad things are happening to their internal organs hence some hemorrhaging on the skin or, and more likely I think, the fish are sloughing sea lice and again, immune systems are not up to speed due to impending death so lesions occur.

Jut my uniformed opinion of course  :D





Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on August 06, 2014, 09:07:55 PM
Not all dead fish float on the surface. Carcasses can sit on the bottom for weeks before surfacing. Grieg is probably collecting fish that died a week or more ago, but I'm sure Morton wants to say that the fish are still dying of some disease. Like Dave says, the spots could be the result of different things; however, it should be emphasize that fish whether it's farmed or wild can have various pathogens and not necessarily suffer negatively (i.e. mortality) from their presence. If someone says that fish should not have any pathogens because it's not normal then they are either ignorant or they are lying.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: GordJ on August 07, 2014, 06:33:07 AM
Well Gourd ( or do you prefer Gored? ;)) since that report has someone invented Pampers for fish? No you say? So the poo goes under the pens and does nothing but foul the ocean. That's a fact Jack. And the chemicals used to kill sea lice, the antibiotics and all the other crap involved in the feedlot business have been replaced with biodegradable fairy dust, imported from Middle Earth. Carry on! ( Are you Bawb's supervisor at the feedlot? :o)
BTW - That report echoes mine and others concerns.
It is not a report. It is a submission to a law review in the States about American fish farms, including catfish farms, by a lawyer.
 The report was written in the last century by a Harvard lawyer to get her name in the law review and if you had credited it as such I wouldn't have a problem. But you conveniently edited out any reference to date or origin to mislead someone reading your post. That is the problem I have with the "Doctor"s various campaigns, like yourself she uses all sorts of misleading information to "prove" her point instead of just using science. And like yourself she has found that it is easier to attack the person rather than prove her case with facts.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on August 07, 2014, 06:43:23 AM
thanks dave and steve.  It appeared to me from watching the segment that she was trying to make two points.  1.) this is some sort of 'new' disease.... and 2.) they are trying to hide this.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1495995/biologist-raises-alarm-about-salmon-farm-in-nootka-sound/


personally I don't feel they are hiding anything if they are openly talking about killing 44,000 salmon. as for a new disease, well I don't know if she's grasping at straws. I've seen all kinds of weird things on wild salmon and trout i've caught.  even some stuff like ick or fin rot when I was first starting out playing with aquariums.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 07, 2014, 07:07:15 AM
It is not a report. It is a submission to a law review in the States about American fish farms, including catfish farms, by a lawyer. i
 The report was written in the last century by a Harvard lawyer to get her name in the law review and if you had credited it as such I wouldn't have a problem. But you conveniently edited out any reference to date or origin to mislead someone reading your post. That is the problem I have with the "Doctor"s various campaigns, like yourself she uses all sorts of misleading information to "prove" her point instead of just using science. And like yourself she has found that it is easier to attack the person rather than prove her case with facts.

Then it dovetails in nicely with the feedlot propaganda that Bawb claims to be gospel truth. I'm merely a foil to the non stop feedlot Pravda that Bawb throws up here. As far as editing goes, I simply posted a link that led to the article. I didn't edit squat - that was the same link I read that I posted. False accusations Gordo. You don't know what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: GordJ on August 07, 2014, 08:00:06 AM
Then it dovetails in nicely with the feedlot propaganda that Bawb claims to be gospel truth. I'm merely a foil to the non stop feedlot Pravda that Bawb throws up here. As far as editing goes, I simply posted a link that led to the article. I didn't edit squat - that was the same link I read that I posted. False accusations Gordo. You don't know what you're talking about.
Oh so you don't do any due diligence at all, just copy and paste everything you read on the internet? That is exactly the problem I have with evangelicals, they just keep repeating what they are told by their leaders.
http://stopmasturbationnow.org/trending/california-forest-fire-caused-by-masturbation-accident/ (http://stopmasturbationnow.org/trending/california-forest-fire-caused-by-masturbation-accident/)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on August 07, 2014, 12:14:33 PM
GordJ, you will find most of the anti's on this forum don't read what they post ... some of it has been so ridiculous and irrelevant it's actually comical. A good friend and perhaps the most vocal told me he doesn't bother to read the posts the pro farmers put up; said he hasn't the time :o
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: GordJ on August 07, 2014, 09:33:33 PM
GordJ, you will find most of the anti's on this forum don't read what they post ... some of it has been so ridiculous and irrelevant it's actually comical. A good friend and perhaps the most vocal told me he doesn't bother to read the posts the pro farmers put up; said he hasn't the time :o
I am still trying to decide what my opinion is about farms and it is about as logical as deciding between Protestant and Catholic or Sunni and Shia when you start reading. It is even more confusing to me because I first started to look at the issue when the "green" organizations were touting farms as a boon to wild fish because they would lessen pressure on wild stocks. Both sides, obviously, slant any information but I really have a problem with Morton's methods and persona so I tend to look at her "data" with a suspicious eye. Like any good religion she has followers who blindly go forth and spout her gospel and this causes me to investigate where the post originated and stuff like that.
I suppose that is not a bad thing and we should probably all look into issues ourselves and take some of the power away from special interest groups like Morton and the Farms and the media and give it to ourselves.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 08, 2014, 05:34:47 AM
Oh so you don't do any due diligence at all, just copy and paste everything you read on the internet? That is exactly the problem I have with evangelicals, they just keep repeating what they are told by their leaders.
http://stopmasturbationnow.org/trending/california-forest-fire-caused-by-masturbation-accident/ (http://stopmasturbationnow.org/trending/california-forest-fire-caused-by-masturbation-accident/)


I think you might be catching on Gord - because that describes Bawb's postings to a T. His master's bleatings Propaganda put forth,written, edited and published as gospel by the feedlots Did you read in my earlier posts about the moonscape around Saddle Island where family and friends that I grew up with can't fish any more? No lobster caught near there any more and that didn't start until Cooke put in a feedlot. You can dispute that, but you'd be dead wrong, and that's a simple fact. Coincidence I guess. Or about the devastation the same companies that set up shop here have inflicted on other countries? Of course not. It puts a pin in the feedlot balloon.


Marine Harvest for example.......( Your old buddy Don is quoted here Dave  ;))
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/may/10/marine-harvest-salmon-farm-scottish-loch
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 09, 2014, 07:09:26 AM
Doc Morton in the news, the comic section hehe

http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/salmon-farming-blogs-and-social-media-items-we-found-interest-week
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 09, 2014, 07:37:22 AM
http://www.seafoodwatch.org/cr/SeafoodWatch/web/sfw_factsheet.aspx?gid=49
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 13, 2014, 07:15:21 AM
Looks like if it is not caught, grown or farmed by the US, you will find it on the do not eat list. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 13, 2014, 07:22:50 AM
Latest about "self proclaimed biologist Morton".

http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=107158


Virus not so new after all.
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/%E2%80%98novel%E2%80%99-virus-not-so-novel-after-presence-found-steelhead-samples-1977
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 13, 2014, 09:03:36 PM
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2005/05/09/SeaLiceSalmon/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 14, 2014, 07:14:37 AM
I am seeing lots of lice on the the salmon I am catching out in open water, and there is lots of salmon this returning this year again. I blame those fish farms for the great time I am having. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 14, 2014, 07:36:41 AM
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/fish_farms/pdfs/NAFTA_Commission_Notification.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on August 14, 2014, 08:51:08 AM
I think a whole fish farm is a "deleterious substance" according to that article.  ;)

...."14. The Submitters state that
[c]onfined salmon [in aquaculture operations] are fed concentrated fish feed,
commonly soaked in chemical treatments and antibiotics designed to remedy
parasite infestations (such as sea lice) and bacterial infections. Any unconsumed
feed, excrement, pesticides and antibiotics pass through the pens and enter the
surrounding environment. Decapod crustaceans such as crabs, lobsters, prawns
and shrimp, which are important scavengers in wild salmon habitat, tend to be
drawn to accumulate[d] discharge on the seabed beneath finfish aquaculture
operations.23"

sounds delicious

....."Submission cites a scientific article reporting that “some
sources of fish feed have been found to contain high levels of mercury.”24 The same scientific
article explains that fish farms produce “zones of anoxic sediment, a condition that promotes
conversion of inorganic mercury into the biaccumulative organometallic form
methylmercury,”25 and goes on to describe additional environmental effects. The same article
also states that “Elevated mercury concentrations in rockfish prey near net-pen salmon farms
likely result from a combination of mercury loading (in waste feed and fish feces26) and
mobilization of native and added mercury in sediment due to farm-induced anoxia.”27
 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 14, 2014, 11:25:14 AM
http://www.campbellrivermirror.com/news/270968011.html?mobile=true
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on August 14, 2014, 01:09:19 PM
and a comment on the post of yours bob.... possibly from a lady who knows what she's talking about?  i'm not prepared to read another few hundred pages of articles so that I can post something of my "own" in this thread.


Angela Koch ·  Top Commenter · ABC
This reminds me of the Mt Polley tailings disaster where the water is almost good enough to drink...and when those with vested interests do this study, well the fish are almost good enough to eat...mind you, if Gary Marty did this study with his homemade easy bake oven testing equipment, well then, it must be true....So I take it we should just overlook the Norwegian strain in BC's PRV?....and how convenient to find out that PRV causes HSMI everywhere else in the world except for Canada,....aren't we just so freaking lucky!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: absolon on August 14, 2014, 03:31:16 PM
Hmmmm...............

http://www.gofundme.com/salmon-farms-exposed (http://www.gofundme.com/salmon-farms-exposed)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on August 14, 2014, 04:18:10 PM
Hmmmm...............

http://www.gofundme.com/salmon-farms-exposed (http://www.gofundme.com/salmon-farms-exposed)

ahhhh geez louise.... definitely more than a hmmmmmm

"So enough is enough! I believe everyone and their friends who know about this fishy industry will boycott them until they're out of the waters, and here's where I need your help..."

well I guess her commercial is about 10 years away.

just an opinion, but I feel that trying to associate complete blame on farms does nothing but create confrontation, with some of it very personal....working together to create profitability in land based farms would be a better use of energy and passion it seems.  there are some legitimate uncertanties like virus mutation that really could cause some sort of event. cows, chickens and pigs have all had 'events' in the last 20 years that i'm sure people wouldn't have anticipated and their effects were wide spread.

ah well I digress, a fools paradise where profitability and environmental stewardship go hand in hand.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 14, 2014, 05:50:43 PM
Somewhat dated but good info

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15230320
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 19, 2014, 06:46:31 AM
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2011/10/11/signs-of-a-crank-recognizing-pseudoscience/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 19, 2014, 06:52:28 AM
http://fishfarmnews.blogspot.ca/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on August 19, 2014, 09:53:30 AM

http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/research-resources/timeline_atlantics.pdf


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 20, 2014, 05:51:18 AM
http://www.aida-americas.org/en/project/hazardsoffishfarms?gclid=CK6iwdDwocACFSyCMgodGjgAFA
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 20, 2014, 09:52:33 AM
That sure sounds scary when you do not have any idea how it is done in BC and the US :)
http://www.al.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 21, 2014, 06:06:19 AM
http://communications.uvic.ca/releases/tip.php?date=19122013
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 21, 2014, 07:45:54 AM
I would think the same presumption would be applied to the wild procesing and all the sport fishing docks where I clean my fish :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 21, 2014, 10:59:37 AM
Looks great despite some peoples predictions :)
http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=10131809
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 26, 2014, 08:15:18 AM
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/film-reviews-are-in-a-fishy-tale/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 26, 2014, 08:20:02 AM
http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=10145261
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on August 28, 2014, 06:59:09 AM
http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/blue_planet/problems/aquaculture/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on August 31, 2014, 07:15:09 AM
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/challenges-sockeye-management
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on August 31, 2014, 09:20:07 AM
Many more sockeye coming down the coast, means less dirty fish being sold. Get over it bawb or get some help getting over it. Maybe get a group rate and a link to that for your fav web sites. Maybe even go out and buy one of those sockeye. Very good prices on them right off the boat for the next while.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 01, 2014, 07:00:56 AM
If it was a sustainable fishery, salmon farming would not be needed in Alaska, BC and Washington TB. You need to get over it. I know I did. No need for me to buy when the fishing is so good around the Island right now and has been for many years. Darn fish farms anyways hehe.  :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 02, 2014, 06:28:43 AM
http://www.purezing.com/living/food_articles/living_articles_7salmon.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 04, 2014, 09:40:48 AM
Looks like our wild salmon have proven Doc Morton wrong once again this year. On a second note, what has she ever got right?  :)
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=107632
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 05, 2014, 06:53:14 AM
http://wcel.org/resources/environmental-law-alert/widening-even-further-hole-federal-fish-protection-canada%E2%80%99s-propos
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 05, 2014, 07:27:04 AM
Wandering hippies fear factor. :)
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/mount-polley-mystery-easily-solved-with-one-mouse-click/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 09, 2014, 09:23:47 PM
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653501001369
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 09, 2014, 09:25:40 PM
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v405/n6790/abs/4051017a0.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 09, 2014, 09:27:29 PM
Sorry Bawb, I've been slipping lately. I'll try harder. :o

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1095-8649.1994.tb01285.x/abstract
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 09, 2014, 09:29:17 PM
This should keep you busy!

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/cjfas-2013-0558#.VA_TZBY7XIQ
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: salmonrook on September 10, 2014, 01:44:09 AM
If it was a sustainable fishery, salmon farming would not be needed in Alaska, BC and Washington TB. You need to get over it. I know I did. No need for me to buy when the fishing is so good around the Island right now and has been for many years. Darn fish farms anyways hehe.  :)
If our own wild fishery  wasnt overfished and managed better it could provide a better resource for fishermen and consumers alike.
 Most of the production and profits from these farms dont  stay in  Canada anyway.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 10, 2014, 07:12:00 AM
I don't hear any complaining from the sport fishing industry. Looks to me that we have taken over and are now a bigger resource than the wild fishery.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 11, 2014, 02:11:35 PM
Looks like another great year for Alaska farmed salmon. :)
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/pink-salmon-the-muffin-stumps-of-the-pacific-northwest/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: salmonrook on September 12, 2014, 11:33:27 PM
Hoping that was sarcasm .
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 13, 2014, 07:40:51 AM
I don't hear any complaining from the sport fishing industry. Looks to me that we have taken over and are now a bigger resource than the wild fishery.

At least your finally admitting to being an organ and working for the feedlots Bawb.
Now a quick quiz for you. How many times as I foil your posts have I quoted Ms. Morton? Whats that? None you say? Here's a challenge for you- go and find some info that isn't from the feedlot back patting crew polishing their own turds. I'm betting you can't do that on orders from your masters........
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 13, 2014, 09:22:18 AM
Read my post how you like NB. I said that our sport fishing industry has taken over the wild fishery. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 13, 2014, 12:13:58 PM
Meanwhile, you skipped over this part ;D

Now a quick quiz for you. How many times as I foil your posts have I quoted Ms. Morton? Whats that? None you say? Here's a challenge for you- go and find some info that isn't from the feedlot back patting crew polishing their own turds. I'm betting you can't do that on orders from your masters........ :o ;) ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 13, 2014, 12:17:30 PM
Look back and find where I said you did :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on September 13, 2014, 06:42:47 PM
Looks like another great year for Alaska farmed salmon. :)
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/pink-salmon-the-muffin-stumps-of-the-pacific-northwest/

just propaganda by the usually folks Bawb !
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 13, 2014, 07:09:10 PM
just propaganda by the usually folks Bawb !
Please feel free to prove your feelings. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on September 13, 2014, 08:38:41 PM
Please feel free to prove your feelings. :)
That might be hard to do, what with the returns of Fraser pinks last year, this years pink and chinook returns to VI, and of course 2014 Fraser sockeye numbers :D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 14, 2014, 12:01:25 PM
just propaganda by the usual turd polishers Bawb !

So Bawb do you prefer a random orbit polisher or the varible speed buffer to make that brown really stand out and gleam? Do you wet sand first and go from 1200 to a 2000 grit finishing polish? Do you apply carnuba as a finishing coat? ;D ;) ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 14, 2014, 07:35:43 PM
So Bawb do you prefer a random orbit polisher or the varible speed buffer to make that brown really stand out and gleam? Do you wet sand first and go from 1200 to a 2000 grit finishing polish? Do you apply carnuba as a finishing coat? ;D ;) ;D


Hey, it is not my fault all the great numbers of salmon returning to the BC coast are making your argument redundant. You seem to be stuck on speculation Nova. It realy is ok to take a bite of that Humble Pie, its not too bad at all.  LOL. :)
http://www.surreyleader.com/news/275007951.html?mobile=true
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 15, 2014, 08:04:47 AM
Dr. Patrick Moore - Higher Ground by ResourceWorks.com
Are you an anti-everything?

http://youtu.be/TlgY3tQSXNg
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on September 15, 2014, 08:36:31 AM
Thanks for that Bob  8)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on September 15, 2014, 12:14:38 PM
not really a farm related question... more history related.

it's about pink salmon.... i'm well into my 30's and I do not recall an abundance of pink salmon when I was fishing in the 90's.  It was actually pretty uncommon to catch one in the rivers I fished up until probably 1998.  there is no odd year wierdness up north either.

the last 10 years or so, there appears to have been a population explosion.  Also a noticeable decrease in chum salmon numbers, and a decrease in chinook size.  I have no solid morton backed science numbers other than first hand experience.  ;)

so for you baby boomers, were there ever large numbers of pinks showing up in the lower mainland flows 'back in the day'?
and if you felt that there is an increase in abundance, what do you think is contributing to it?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 15, 2014, 02:06:33 PM
Very good question Banx. I often wonder if Alaska farmed salmon that are released are invading our rivers. This site gave me some thing to think about.

http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rcbtoa/services/NAsept-oct-pgs14-15c.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: salmonrook on September 15, 2014, 10:25:42 PM
if these are  the pinks and chum that are coming to our rivers to spawn,wouldnt they have to be native to the river so they knew where to return.?
 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 16, 2014, 06:13:37 AM
Dr. Patrick Moore - Higher Ground by ResourceWorks.com
Are you an anti-everything?

http://youtu.be/TlgY3tQSXNg


Patrick Moore is and was a sellout. I met and knew him in the 70's when I was a volunteer at Greenpeace. He's abused that past with little or no shame. Have a nice read about your hero here Bawb. Just another round of baloney. Have a little read about this nit below.



http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/media-center/news-releases/greenpeace-statement-on-patric/


 Patrick Moore often misrepresents himself in the media as an environmental “expert” or even an “environmentalist,” while offering anti-environmental opinions on a wide range of issues and taking a distinctly anti-environmental stance. He also exploits long-gone ties with Greenpeace to sell himself as a speaker and pro-corporate spokesperson, usually taking positions that Greenpeace opposes.

While it is true that Patrick Moore was a member of Greenpeace in the 1970s, in 1986 he abruptly turned his back on the very issues he once passionately defended. He claims he "saw the light" but what Moore really saw was an opportunity for financial gain. Since then he has gone from defender of the planet to a paid representative of corporate polluters.

Patrick Moore promotes such anti-environmental positions as clearcut logging, nuclear power, farmed salmon, PVC (vinyl) production, genetically engineered crops, and mining.  Clients for his consulting services are a veritable Who's Who of companies that Greenpeace has exposed for environmental misdeeds, including Monsanto, Weyerhaeuser, and BHP Minerals. 

Moore's claims run from the exaggerated to the outrageous to the downright false, including that "clear-cutting is good for forests" and Three Mile Island was actually "a success story" because the radiation from the partially melted core was contained. That is akin to saying "my car crash was a success because I only cracked my skull and didn't die."

By exploiting his former ties to Greenpeace, Moore portrays himself as a prodigal son who has seen the error of his ways.  Unfortunately, the media - especially conservative media - give him a platform for his views, and often do so without mentioning the fact that he is a paid spokesperson for polluting companies.

The following provides a brief overview of Patrick Moore's positions and his history of working for corporate polluters.

TRUTH V. FICTION ON PATRICK MOORE:

Patrick Moore claims he is an environmentalist and represents an independent scientific perspective on forest issues.

TRUTH: Moore was paid by the British Columbia Forest Alliance, an industry-front group set up by the public relations firm Burson-Marsteller (the same PR firm that represented Exxon after the Valdez oil spill and Union Carbide after the Bhopal chemical disaster). The BC Forest Alliance is funded primarily by the logging industry. He also has ties to other corporations including Monsanto and Weyerhaeuser.

According to Moore, logging is good for forests causing reforestation, not deforestation.

TRUTH: Webster's Dictionary defines deforestation as "the action or process of clearing of forests." The argument advanced by forest industry spin-doctors that clear-cutting "causes reforestation, not deforestation" is without basis in fact. It is like arguing that having a heart attack improves your health because of the medical treatment you receive afterwards.

According to Moore: "Forward-thinking environmentalists and scientists have made clear, technology has now progressed to the point where the activist fear mongering about the safety of nuclear energy bears no resemblance to reality."

TRUTH:

- The Nuclear Regulatory Commission's Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards (ACRS) concluded years ago that the lack of containment on Department of Energy (DOE) sponsored advanced nuclear reactor designs constituted a "major safety trade-off."

- Patrick Moore has recently begun touting the "safety" of nuclear energy at the behest of the Nuclear Energy Institute (NEI), which is being bankrolled by the nuclear industry to promote nuclear energy as clean and safe energy. The public relations firm Hill & Knowlton has been hired to roll out a multi-million dollar campaign to repackage Moore's propaganda to convince congressional leaders of public support for the building of new nuclear plants.

Hill and Knowlton are most well known for their public relations work defending the tobacco industry. The PR firm has also worked for industry interests to stall action to protect the ozone layer by executing "a carefully designed campaign attacking the science behind the ozone depletion and delaying government action for two years. This was enough time for DuPont to bring new, ozone-friendly chemicals to market." Austin American Statesman, Cox News Service Jeff Nesmith June 26, 2005 http://www.statesman.com/search/content/insight/stories/06/26doubt.html

More information on Hill and Knowlton can be found at:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Hill_%26_Knowlton

Moore's recent call that the U.S. should generate 60 percent of U.S. electricity from nuclear power is ludicrous. These plants are acknowledged by the federal government's own National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States - commonly referred to as the 9/11 Commission - as terrorist targets. An accident or terrorist attack at a nuclear plant could result in thousands of near-term deaths from radiation exposure and hundreds of thousands of long-term deaths from cancer among individuals within only fifty miles of a nuclear plant.

His proposal not only fails to address the risk posed to the American public by our existing plants, but also fails to address the urgent issue of global warming. According to Dr. Bill Keepin, a physicist and energy consultant in the U.S., "given business-as-usual growth in energy demand, it appears that even an infeasibly massive global nuclear power programme could not reduce future emissions of carbon dioxide. To displace coal alone would require the construction of a new nuclear plant every two or three days for nearly four decades…in the United States, each dollar invested in efficiency displaces nearly seven times more carbon than a dollar invested in new nuclear power."

According to Moore, "Three Mile Island was actually a success story in that the radiation from the partially melted core was contained."

TRUTH:

The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission estimates that 10 million curies of radiation were released into the environment by the Three Mile Island Meltdown. Expert witnesses in the TMI law suits estimated that 150 million curies escaped, because the containment at Three Mile Island was not leak tight and the NRC ignored many of the potential escape routes for the radiation.

VVPR info: Jane Kochersperger, 202-319-2493
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 16, 2014, 07:45:37 AM
if these are  the pinks and chum that are coming to our rivers to spawn,wouldnt they have to be native to the river so they knew where to return.?
I would think that salmon repopulating rivers after ice ages would suggest that not all salmon return to their native river. Dave or Steve?

Found this one :)
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/science/publications/uww-msm/articles/pacificsalmon-saumonpacifique-eng.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on September 16, 2014, 08:43:53 AM
Pink salmon tend to stray more often than other salmon so I suppose it is possible Alaskan pinks could spawn in BC rivers ... I would be more concerned with the sheer numbers of released hatchery pink fry competing for food with wild salmonids.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on September 16, 2014, 09:03:05 AM
Bob that link you posted just talks about the difference between 'ranching' in alaska, and 'farming' here..... though based on the several propaganda sites I visited to research ranching... most of what we do here could be classified as ranching as well.  releasing smolts into the wild with the hope of them returning to be caught.  which is from your positiveaquaharvestingalliance.com

What I did find wrong, as a matter of opinion of course, is that the authors try to say that ranching is better than farming.  It does use less feed per ton. But there are far more negatives associated with farms compared to ranching.  The largest being the effect on the environment.

If these 'ranched' fish come back to their natal streams and are not caught/harvested then they are a + on the environment.  They will contribute to the ecosystem via their death.  farmed salmon will never be a + on the environment and will only benefit the company who owns them.

now back to the original question.... as you posted earlier saying the sportfishing on the island is amazing, were you catching a lot of pinks in the 70's 80's and 90's? and if not, why do you think your catching more now?

you don't need to quote anyone Bob, I accept your opinion regardless of your feelings.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Every Day on September 16, 2014, 10:17:30 AM
I would think that salmon repopulating rivers after ice ages would suggest that not all salmon return to their native river. Dave or Steve?

Found this one :)
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/science/publications/uww-msm/articles/pacificsalmon-saumonpacifique-eng.htm

I was helping tag coho last year on the island....

A number of the coho I tagged in the Englishman (quite a ways up too ~15-20 km), ended up in rivers like the Chase or Millstone. We were also catching a tonne of hatchery fish, which were most likely Little Q or Big Q strays.

In short, the fish don't need to be native to the river to go up it. They will simply join a school and head up the river. Some may go down like the ones I tagged that ended up 50+ km away, but I'm sure closer to spawning a bunch stay.

Another food for thought.... if you go look at a lot of rivers with "record returns," I'd say at the mouth of each river there is a slough of 100,000 pinks sitting there, not really doing anything other than colouring up. I'd say you can't use the low water excuse (personally), just because in those same rivers, fresh coho are shooting past the pinks right up into the system (plus a number of the pinks are already in as well). Maybe the pinks are just lost and can't bounce around any more due to their condition, so they'll just spawn in the estuaries.

Can\t wait to see what happens with coho fishing this year.. I have a feeling it'll be a treat  ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 16, 2014, 08:34:59 PM
http://www.biv.com/article/2012/8/recalculating-the-costs-and-consequences-of-fish-f/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 16, 2014, 08:38:20 PM
Bawb? Is this you? ;D :o ;) ;D

http://www.watershedsentinel.ca/content/enbridges-pr-firm-hill-and-knowlton-minister-environment-connection
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 16, 2014, 08:41:57 PM
http://communications.uvic.ca/releases/release.php?display=release&id=1176
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 16, 2014, 08:46:07 PM
http://www.salmonguy.org/?tag=salmon-farming
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 16, 2014, 11:41:29 PM
http://fairquestions.typepad.com/rethink_campaigns/2011/05/wild-vs-farmed-a-false-choice.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 17, 2014, 07:43:55 AM
http://health.clevelandclinic.org/2014/03/fish-faceoff-wild-salmon-vs-farmed-salmon/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 17, 2014, 09:29:35 AM
Geuss that even blows the grow on land thinking out of the water Nova. Why would they not compare a farmed atlantic to a wild atlantic? Beef,,,Buffalo, whats the differance kind thinking. You of all people should be able to read that as poopaganda science Nova LOL. Just buy American. :)
http://fairquestions.typepad.com/rethink_campaigns/2011/05/wild-vs-farmed-a-false-choice.html

Btw, do we realy know what is in "Wild" fish feed? :)
http://blogfishx.blogspot.ca/2007/05/wild-salmon-fed-melamine-contaminated.html?m=1

But on the bright side in Washington.
http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/4321/fda-clears-fish-of-melamine-in-washington-state
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 17, 2014, 10:13:29 AM
Debunking Doc Morton. :)
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/09/16/whats-better-than-debunking-morton-myths-seeing-a-real-salmon-scientist-get-international-recognition/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 18, 2014, 06:15:15 AM
Debunking Doc Morton. :)
http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/09/16/whats-better-than-debunking-morton-myths-seeing-a-real-salmon-scientist-get-international-recognition/


There ya go again with self aggrandizing propaganda put forth by your feedlot lords. :o salmonfarmnonsenseandbaloney.com
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 18, 2014, 07:34:55 AM

There ya go again with self aggrandizing propaganda put forth by your feedlot lords. :o salmonfarmnonsenseandbaloney.com
You can debunk them simply by telling me what Doc Morton has got right during her anti fish farm crusade Nova. :) not going to hold my breath for that reply hehe.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 18, 2014, 07:51:36 AM
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/fraser-river-sockeye-salmon-run-size-uncertain-but-great/article20635137/?service=mobile
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 18, 2014, 09:50:13 PM
You can debunk them simply by telling me what Doc Morton has got right during her anti fish farm crusade Nova. :) not going to hold my breath for that reply hehe.
You seem to have an unhealthy obsession and a weird fascination with Ms. Morton. Really unhealthy and really weird.

You see Bawb, I've posted links from many other sources,  so you wouldn't have that popgun to fire. Note there's university studies, doctor's reports, even prominent business publications - they've all clued in to the feedlot flim-flam backed by the chorus of sycophants. Like the constant self serving salmonfarmnonsense.com or the other glut of propaganda put forth by your masters. And since I've brought up your masters, please point out another jurisdiction where these floating fester pots have an unblemished record- Norway? Scotland? Surely the South America\n operations have a resounding ecological and safety record? No, you say?  They're the same buffoons operating here, donating large sums of money to the political flavour of the day to curry favour.


http://www.coibc.ca/down/opinion_hagen_2003.pdf

http://thetyee.ca/News/2005/05/12/FishFarmDocumentsShowPoliticsTrumpScience/

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 19, 2014, 06:37:30 AM
That was a lot of talk from some one that seems to not be able to tell the differance between Atlantic and Pacific Salmon. :)

http://www.thesalmons.org/lynn/fishes.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 19, 2014, 06:59:16 AM
That was a lot of talk from some one that seems to not be able to tell the differance between Atlantic and Pacific Salmon. :)

http://www.thesalmons.org/lynn/fishes.html

A little early for libations Bawb.... :o ::) ;)

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/Shill-Web_0_zpsbe720d15.gif) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/Shill-Web_0_zpsbe720d15.gif.html)






Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 19, 2014, 10:55:31 AM
WOW, You sure put a lot of thought into that one Nova. Good work son lol. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 19, 2014, 11:32:58 AM
Bob that link you posted just talks about the difference between 'ranching' in alaska, and 'farming' here..... though based on the several propaganda sites I visited to research ranching... most of what we do here could be classified as ranching as well.  releasing smolts into the wild with the hope of them returning to be caught.  which is from your positiveaquaharvestingalliance.com

What I did find wrong, as a matter of opinion of course, is that the authors try to say that ranching is better than farming.  It does use less feed per ton. But there are far more negatives associated with farms compared to ranching.  The largest being the effect on the environment.

If these 'ranched' fish come back to their natal streams and are not caught/harvested then they are a + on the environment.  They will contribute to the ecosystem via their death.  farmed salmon will never be a + on the environment and will only benefit the company who owns them.

now back to the original question.... as you posted earlier saying the sportfishing on the island is amazing, were you catching a lot of pinks in the 70's 80's and 90's? and if not, why do you think your catching more now?

you don't need to quote anyone Bob, I accept your opinion regardless of your feelings.
Yes you may be right on your points Banx. We also should look at how much those billions of ranched salmon eat in the wild when they are released from their net pens. They would also be competing with the wild. Their return btw is around 10% from what I have read meaning a lot of waisted feed from the start where farmed salmon has around a 90% return. I feel farmed has taken the consumer bite out of our wild and leaves more for the sport and more to spawn. We may not like it, but the only thing I have seen work to bring low populations back is to simply leave them alone for a few years. It has worked from Washington up to Alaska. Add a bit of enhancement into that pot :)
Oh btw, cant say as I have ever caught much for pinks. Guess it may be from targeting coho and springs.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 21, 2014, 11:16:05 AM
WOW, You sure put a lot of thought into that one Nova. Good work son lol. :)


Yes Sir Captain Bawb - About as much thought as a parrot repeating what his masters tell him to from the same old and tired baloney factories;) Here's a challenge you may have to get managerial approval for - try finding some (dis)information from something other than those old dogs you drag out.Or aren't you allowed independent information sources from the command ship?

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/pirate-parrot-23490778_zps8ff62051.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/pirate-parrot-23490778_zps8ff62051.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 21, 2014, 08:19:45 PM

Yes Sir Captain Bawb - About as much thought as a parrot repeating what his masters tell him to from the same old and tired baloney factories;) Here's a challenge you may have to get managerial approval for - try finding some (dis)information from something other than those old dogs you drag out.Or aren't you allowed independent information sources from the command ship?

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/pirate-parrot-23490778_zps8ff62051.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/pirate-parrot-23490778_zps8ff62051.jpg.html)
So happy you can talk about yourself like that Nova. Your work has begun. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on September 22, 2014, 09:27:58 AM
"Oh btw, cant say as I have ever caught much for pinks"

Can't say you what?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 22, 2014, 02:41:09 PM
"Oh btw, cant say as I have ever caught much for pinks"

Can't say you what?
Oh look,, the never answer a question guy asked a question. Try taking the blindfold off and read my post fully TB hehe. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 23, 2014, 10:27:13 AM
Might check this out. :)
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/bc-salmon-farmers-grow-sustainability-efforts-meet-demand
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on September 23, 2014, 11:54:24 AM
Yes you may be right on your points Banx. We also should look at how much those billions of ranched salmon eat in the wild when they are released from their net pens. They would also be competing with the wild. Their return btw is around 10% from what I have read meaning a lot of waisted feed from the start where farmed salmon has around a 90% return. I feel farmed has taken the consumer bite out of our wild and leaves more for the sport and more to spawn. We may not like it, but the only thing I have seen work to bring low populations back is to simply leave them alone for a few years. It has worked from Washington up to Alaska. Add a bit of enhancement into that pot :)
Oh btw, cant say as I have ever caught much for pinks. Guess it may be from targeting coho and springs.

well this is just opinion of course, but I kind of disagree that farmed/ranched fish compete with wild species for food out in the ocean.  yes they are out there eating food for sure.  But to say that they are over competing the wilds is kind of silly.  Wild fish are stronger, that is a fact.  They would also be more wiley when out in the chuck as compared to some hatchery fish who's been handed everything since the day it's born.

I think, opinion only of course, that these hatchery/ranched fish would be easier pickings for predators than the wilds who have already run a gauntlet since emerging from an egg.  Thus off setting the destruction to wild stocks that have already occurred. As mentioned earlier, these ranched fish will return nutrients to their natal streams when they return. Which feed insects, trout, mammals, birds, the trees....everything.  All farmed salmon does to the environment is give it a beating.

what would you rather drop in the ocean? live small fish, or antibiotics and crap?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 24, 2014, 08:22:38 AM
Here's a piece from your chum(bucket) and fellow shill-for-hire Patrick Moore.
http://blogs.theprovince.com/2014/09/23/patrick-moore-link-between-climate-and-co2-is-far-from-clear/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 24, 2014, 09:21:51 AM
Here's a piece from your chum(bucket) and fellow shill-for-hire Patrick Moore.
http://blogs.theprovince.com/2014/09/23/patrick-moore-link-between-climate-and-co2-is-far-from-clear/

Thanks Nova. That was a good read. :)

"If we wish to preserve natural biodiversity, wildlife, and human well-being, we should simultaneously plan for both warming and cooling, recognizing that cooling would be the most damaging of the two trends."
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 24, 2014, 09:49:31 AM
You are going to like this one Nova. :)

http://youtu.be/WLhilIwK2YQ
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 25, 2014, 06:36:16 AM
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/denial_quote_zps6c96eea5.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/denial_quote_zps6c96eea5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 25, 2014, 07:10:25 PM
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/denial_quote_zps6c96eea5.jpg) (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/Willy1956/media/denial_quote_zps6c96eea5.jpg.html)
You just reminded me of some one having the three monkey syndrome lol. I thank you Nova, for reminding me why I left your side of the fence. I felt I was to listen and not to ask questions. When I did, and still do ask a question, there is no answer from your side. At least Banx is willing to chat.  :) 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on September 25, 2014, 08:39:13 PM
I'm sorry Bawb - what was the question?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 25, 2014, 08:47:51 PM
I'm sorry Bawb - what was the question?
Take the blinders off Nova. I gave you a compliment. As far as the questions, scroll up. I think you do not need to much of your time if you actually take the time to read what you do not want to be asked. Or is it, you are not given the answers from your spongers? For your ease, why test Atlantic's with Pacific's? And for the heck of it, why not put farmed Alaskan salmon and Alaska wild in the cocktail mix? Why not a farmed Atlantic with a wild Atlantic? Or a Wild Pacific salmon with a farmed Pacific salmon? Looks to me that your post would not have near the "catastrophic" message that they wanted us to "obediently" listen to. As I said before, you "supposedly" being from the east coast and from a "supposedly fishing background" should know the difference between the Atlantic's and Pacific's. Still not holding my breath for an answer btw.    :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 29, 2014, 11:08:34 AM
Hey Banx, I thought you might find this interesting. Pro's and con's I guess.

http://protestingtheprotesters.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/hatchery-fish-are-not-wild/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on September 29, 2014, 03:45:13 PM
Sounds like a person with a block of SLICE on her back Bawb. Couldn't find some real information on the subject?


About


I am a firm supporter of resource based industries on and around Vancouver Island. I have friends who work in  these industries and I am tired of seeing the bullying done by these so called “peaceful protesters.” My main focus will be on the fish farm protesters because they are very active in my community.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 29, 2014, 04:38:29 PM
Sounds like a person with a block of SLICE on her back Bawb. Couldn't find some real information on the subject?


About


I am a firm supporter of resource based industries on and around Vancouver Island. I have friends who work in  these industries and I am tired of seeing the bullying done by these so called “peaceful protesters.” My main focus will be on the fish farm protesters because they are very active in my community.
  Not sure what is on your back TB. A small box perhaps? It really makes me wonder why you seem to have no problem with the US doing the same thing as what happens in BC. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on September 29, 2014, 06:56:21 PM
"Not sure what is on your back TB. A small box perhaps?"

A small box? A few hairs that's for sure but a small box? Just saying the person you quoted from has a vested interest in a particular way of salmon farming and is not likely to be unbiased with information. Also seems to have a paranoia about perceived threats by “peaceful protesters.”

Much like your segueing into US fishfarming practices and wondering, it may not matter really. I don't worry much about what the US does. You may worry because it may affect your livelihood. That's fair I guess. Maybe start a mudshark farm to diversify.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 29, 2014, 07:10:53 PM
"Not sure what is on your back TB. A small box perhaps?"

A small box? A few hairs that's for sure but a small box? Just saying the person you quoted from has a vested interest in a particular way of salmon farming and is not likely to be unbiased with information. Also seems to have a paranoia about perceived threats by “peaceful protesters.”

Much like your segueing into US fishfarming practices and wondering, it may not matter really. I don't worry much about what the US does. You may worry because it may affect your livelihood. That's fair I guess. Maybe start a mudshark farm to diversify.
I guess my box must be a lot bigger than yours. I consider Alaska and Washington to be in our back yard. So yes, I do wonder why we do not hear about their farming practices, only what we do in BC. American protectionism at its best. American born Doc Morton is all over that from what I see these days. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on September 30, 2014, 08:26:16 AM
Hey Banx, I thought you might find this interesting. Pro's and con's I guess.

http://protestingtheprotesters.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/hatchery-fish-are-not-wild/

thanks.... yes there is a concern of wilds and hatchery fish mixing genes and maybe not making the 'wild' fish as pure. that's a definite concern.(for some people).......... your asking to pick the lesser of two evils.  and for me it will always be hatchery supported stocks over farms.

salmon; wild or hatchery, always benefit the environment in their death.  farms won't be contributing in a positive way ever.  even economically, I think sportfishing employs and contributes more than farms to our economy.... especially with distributing the wealth around and not for a few select stake holders like farms. 

 

   
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on September 30, 2014, 09:39:43 AM
thanks.... yes there is a concern of wilds and hatchery fish mixing genes and maybe not making the 'wild' fish as pure. that's a definite concern.(for some people).......... your asking to pick the lesser of two evils.  and for me it will always be hatchery supported stocks over farms.

salmon; wild or hatchery, always benefit the environment in their death.  farms won't be contributing in a positive way ever.  even economically, I think sportfishing employs and contributes more than farms to our economy.... especially with distributing the wealth around and not for a few select stake holders like farms. 

 

 
  I guess I can agree with you on most of what you say Banx. But you must also agree that, as big as the sport fishing industry is, we sport fishers kill a lot of wild and hatchery salmon for profit that would have put nutrients in the rivers and streams, fed the bears, eagles and trees, where I can not find proof of salmon farmers killing them. Just myths, fables, hearsay and lies. :) Btw, I know a few people in the sport fishing industry and they have second winter jobs because the industry is seasonal and does not sustain a year around income. Some head south and spend their hard earned money out of Canada and in a warmer climate. Seems to me that salmon farming is year around work in Canada and most of all in coastal communities that need and do benefit from it. 
  Now I have to ask you Banx, just why have we been pointing our fingers at salmon farmers when we have no direct Industrial competition with them? Also the same feed companies supply both hatcheries and farms giving them year around employment. Also I do not hear complaints from sport fishers about what is in the hatchery feed or the chemicals used to keep the smolts healthy that are released into the wild that we catch and eat. It looks like we have been misled with a double standard.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on September 30, 2014, 05:46:12 PM
" It looks like we (I) have been misled with a double standard."

I would change that to the singular bawb. Comparing feeding trout and salmon smolts in a land based hatchery to shovelling chemically laden feed to farmed salmon in the open pens is inane.

You should think about your posts a little more btw. Your starting to sound like what you think Morten sounds like.

What about the mudshark farm bawb? Give it a go yes / no.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on September 30, 2014, 07:23:20 PM
" It looks like we (I) have been misled with a double standard."

Comparing feeding trout and salmon smolts in a land based hatchery to shovelling chemically laden feed to farmed salmon in the open pens is inane.
Actually, fish farms in Canada and Washington State, all salmonid hatcheries throughout the Pacific Northwest, and salmon ranchers in Alaska use pretty much the same food formulations, produced from the same companies.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on September 30, 2014, 07:27:24 PM
What about the mudshark farm bawb? Give it a go yes / no.
If there was a market for Mudsharks, and I believe there is, why not?  I have eaten these fish, freshly caught off Tofino.  When prepared correctly they are delicious ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on September 30, 2014, 08:35:14 PM
Actually, fish farms in Canada and Washington State, all salmonid hatcheries throughout the Pacific Northwest, and salmon ranchers in Alaska use pretty much the same food formulations, produced from the same companies.

So your saying they're feeding SLICE and the same amount of food at the hatcheries as the fish farms do then. Hmmmmm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on September 30, 2014, 08:35:23 PM
Been down this road before....Whether you agree or not with the practice of fish farms in BC they do contribute economically to the province.  Not just the direct employment but indirectly also in goods and services.  I don't disagree with the larger economic impact of sportfishing, but I don't believe it should be one or the other nowadays or some competition between the two (i.e. one makes more money than the other). I think anything you can have diversity like that it's a good thing. Considering that the forest industry in many of these Vancouver Island communities is not like it used to it's not hard to understand that fish farming would be welcomed.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on September 30, 2014, 09:10:44 PM
Alaskan salmon farm (opps...."ranching" or "salmon enhancement programs") facilities utilize several chemicals and antibiotics to treat illness. They also have to deal with sea lice. Ranched fish are also fed fish pellets, are vaccinated and leave "poop" on the ocean floor.

It should be noted that the antibiotic use with salmon ranching, like fish farming in BC, is much, much lower than that used in terrestrial agriculture. But of course, all the chemicals used in land-based agriculture go into some magical pit - never to make their way into any watercourse like the Fraser River.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on September 30, 2014, 09:23:05 PM
But of course, all the chemicals used in land-based agriculture go into some magical pit - never to make their way into any watercourse like the Fraser River.
;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on September 30, 2014, 10:13:34 PM
Magnitude and Trends in Abundance of Hatchery and Wild Pink Salmon, Chum Salmon, and Sockeye Salmon in the North Pacific Ocean

http://afs.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1577/C09-054.1



Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 01, 2014, 10:14:33 AM
  I guess I can agree with you on most of what you say Banx. But you must also agree that, as big as the sport fishing industry is, we sport fishers kill a lot of wild and hatchery salmon for profit that would have put nutrients in the rivers and streams, fed the bears, eagles and trees, where I can not find proof of salmon farmers killing them. Just myths, fables, hearsay and lies. :) Btw, I know a few people in the sport fishing industry and they have second winter jobs because the industry is seasonal and does not sustain a year around income. Some head south and spend their hard earned money out of Canada and in a warmer climate. Seems to me that salmon farming is year around work in Canada and most of all in coastal communities that need and do benefit from it. 
  Now I have to ask you Banx, just why have we been pointing our fingers at salmon farmers when we have no direct Industrial competition with them? Also the same feed companies supply both hatcheries and farms giving them year around employment. Also I do not hear complaints from sport fishers about what is in the hatchery feed or the chemicals used to keep the smolts healthy that are released into the wild that we catch and eat. It looks like we have been misled with a double standard.

I'm sure there are farmers who sport fish, just like there are likely cattle ranchers who shoot moose and deer.

someones employment is a choice they make. there are also plenty of seasonal workers in other capacities. also, to say that steady employment is a justification for having a farm in an open ocean is ludicrous at best.

regarding feed, yes I feel your correct on a lot of it. But I'm sure, and this is only opinion but a wild or hatchery fish will look and taste better than its farmed counterpart.  Just like cattle, pork, chicken etc. what they eat has a huge affect on flavour.  having eaten pellets from birth to death it probably lacks the umani that a salmon would chasing down its prey in the ocean.

in the 8647 pages on this thread I have never blamed the farms for the demise of wild salmon. there are way worse things out there. way worse. But that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to the practice.  There has to be a better way.  There HAS to be.

for me there are serious red flags in the practice of having a pen in the ocean.  There are also serious unknowns that could have lasting implications.  It's very unlikely that some sort of virus or pathogen can transfer from fish to humans.  But there is a very strong possibility that there could be mutation and transfer to other species in the oceans.

swine flu, mad cow disease, avian flu, these are things that farmers never anticipated. to say that things like that could not happen on a salmon farm is living on a prayer for sure.  We have been domesticating animals for centuries, land based ones, and other than the ancient chinese no other culture was doing any form of aquaculture.  In the short time frame (relatively) that these types of farms have been in operation there have been serious serious problems.

and saying oh its BC were the best at it, nothing is going to happen.....  let me remind you that these farms are not infallible, they are not god. you can not predict the future or insure the ocean. 


Magnitude and Trends in Abundance of Hatchery and Wild Pink Salmon, Chum Salmon, and Sockeye Salmon in the North Pacific Ocean

http://afs.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1577/C09-054.1

thanks for the link.  I did come across a selfie you took steve.  I had to save it.

(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o4/banx14/hulk.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/banx14/media/hulk.jpg.html)



Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 01, 2014, 04:59:20 PM
Alaskan salmon farm (opps...."ranching" or "salmon enhancement programs") facilities utilize several chemicals and antibiotics to treat illness. They also have to deal with sea lice. Ranched fish are also fed fish pellets, are vaccinated and leave "poop" on the ocean floor.

Your making it sound like freighters are out in the ocean feeding the ranched salmon to match the amount of feed that net pens are using.  ::)  Wow.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 01, 2014, 05:20:12 PM
Your making it sound like freighters are out in the ocean feeding the ranched salmon to match the amount of feed that net pens are using.  ::)  Wow.
You just may be right TB. :)

"Ocean-ranched fish are hatched and reared in fresh water and then raised in ocean-based net pens where they are fed and protected from predation to gain size and strength before being released into the wild."
http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/01/17/alaskan-ocean-ranching-damages-wild-salmon-fishery-b-c-conservation-groups-say/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 01, 2014, 05:58:02 PM
I am right about him making it sound like that, but fact is:

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/fishing/PDFs/hatcheries/2013_ak_hatcheries.pdf

http://www.wildakgirl.com/2013/04/why-did-alaskan-ban-fish-farms.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 01, 2014, 06:43:31 PM
That is because they call it ranching, not farming. They still keep the salmon in open net pens for up to 12 months. That would mean to me that those net pens would not be empty for very long. Nice try though TB. :)

http://alaskasalmonranching.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/report.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on October 01, 2014, 07:05:18 PM
looks like more government tax payer bail out $$$ on the way  >:(


http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2014/09/30/algae-kills-280k-farmed-fish
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 01, 2014, 07:59:37 PM
That is because they call it ranching, not farming. They still keep the salmon in open net pens for up to 12 months. That would mean to me that those net pens would not be empty for very long. Nice try though TB. :)

http://alaskasalmonranching.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/report.pdf

More unauthorized content from your favorite site. Not even worth posting Bawb.

Let's face it Alaska banned salmon farming so that alone is enough for you and the dirty fish gang to target them (bully them in your other posters words).

Get the mudshark farm going Bawb and no one's going to complain. You could feed them all the dead fish from Marine Harvests latest killoff. A win win if I ever saw one.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 01, 2014, 10:36:59 PM
Your making it sound like freighters are out in the ocean feeding the ranched salmon to match the amount of feed that net pens are using.  ::)  Wow.

Well, you made the comparison to freighters - not me.  I also never mentioned anything about "matching" the amount of feed.  I notice that you don't like the inconvenient facts about salmon ranching in Alaska and have instead decided to shoot the messenger rather than critique the content.  Interesting.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 01, 2014, 10:47:35 PM
I am right about him making it sound like that, but fact is:

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/fishing/PDFs/hatcheries/2013_ak_hatcheries.pdf

http://www.wildakgirl.com/2013/04/why-did-alaskan-ban-fish-farms.html

By posting these what is the point you are trying to make?  As for Sara Pozonsky, she is passionate about her beliefs, but I don't believe she really understands what is going on in her own backyard. She obviously has not considered the study that I just posted previously or the concerns from folks in her own camp like Watershed Watch Salmon Society with regards to salmon ranching in Alaska or even in production from Japan or Russia.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 01, 2014, 11:52:45 PM
http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2014/09/30/algae-kills-280k-farmed-fish

These fish kills in BC caused by this algae are not uncommon if you look at the literature.  Wild salmon can be impacted but are more able to avoid the bloom; whereas, farmed salmon are more restricted in a net pen and have a more difficult time avoiding it. BC fish farms are situated to hopefully avoid these toxic blooms but they do happen.

Alex Morton, an independent biologist, said climate change could trigger the blooms. But she also pointed to “industrial feedlot waste” from the farms themselves that attracts the algae.

“Wild fish in theory can go deeper (the bloom sticks to surface waters) but it’s hard to figure out what happens to wild fish,” she said.


Heterosigma akashiwo is found along the Pacific coast from Mexico to the northern BC coast. It was proposed as one of the factors in the decline of Fraser Sockeye at the Cohen Commission, but it's contribution to the overall decline is still relatively uncertain. It is true that it can kill wild fish; however, whether the impact is that great as to be a significant cause in the decline is not a slam dunk because wild fish have the ability to avoid these blooms. When it hits farmed fish here it doesn't appear to be a complete kill so in my opinion it can add to mortality like the other factors mentioned during the inquiry, but it's likely not the big smoking gun.

I do agree with Morton that it's hard to figure out what happens to the wild fish in this circumstance. It is possible that many wild morts that fall victim to toxic algae will sink to the bottom and be undetected unless water temperatures encourage them to come to the surface.  This is similar to farmed salmon found dead at the bottom of net pens.  However, when you factor in scavengers in the water column (benthic and pelagic); tides and ocean currents impacting the distribution of carcasses; and the fact that carcasses can remain on the bottom for indeterminate amount of time (making detection even more difficult) the availability of carcasses to make for a meaningful study into this could be a difficult task.

As for fish farms attracting these blooms there is little evidence to support that theory. As Ian Roberts notes, these blooms happen in areas without fish farms and the nutrient load may not be as significant as Morton believes. I posted this study from the Puget Sound before: http://www.whoi.edu/fileserver.do?id=39383&pt=2&p=29109
 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 02, 2014, 12:11:46 AM
Morton followers ignorant of toxic algae off our coast:

https://www.facebook.com/AlexandraMortonSalmonBiologist

Typical Morton....Promote ignorance by posting something inflammatory with little or no context and factual information.

Here is a really good one....

Thank God this got blocked in Washington state. The zoologists I was working with were against it totally

LOL...Yep...no fish farms in Washington State...lol. These toxic blooms happen in Washington State also.  Donkey.

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 02, 2014, 12:14:37 AM
Good one, banx.  I laughed for awhile.  That was funny and needed after a difficult past couple of days.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: salmonrook on October 02, 2014, 01:25:48 AM
I like the fact that Alaska recognized that fish farms were harming their environment and banned them. Instead shifting to Salmon ranching which  only keeps  the fish for 12 months , after that they can be regarded as wild as they do most of there growth on natural food in the ocean. It is a more natural way of growing fish rather than penning them up and feeding them pellets for there whole life .At least they(State of Alaska) are  not turning a blind eye to all of this , which conveniently for our feds seems to happen with the fish farms here in bc.
   I would bet that the majority of people here know about fish farms and are aware of their folly, only through individuals and organizations like Seachoice (education) are people going to make informed decisions .
 I would also wager that  majority of people do not know the extent of the fish farming and its effects on our environment and the govt involvement supporting it financially .If they did they would be shocked.Its up to all of us to keep the info flowing instead of trying to deflect,misinform and hide any kind problems affecting our environment.
 As for the latest fish kill , this was an usually warm year and we did see several instances of algae blooms in waters around the bc coast.As mentioned the wild fish can avoid these blooms while the penned ones cannot.
 The unfortunate part is the feds may bail them out when in fact most of the production and profits from this company,Marine harvest will not stay in Canada.
  I applaud Sara Pozonsky for supporting the local industry of fishermen and there natural historic  methods.
 Im sure she has a quality product. She may even be buying ranched salmon , that have returning after several years of ocean growth and survival .
 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 02, 2014, 07:18:26 AM
One or the other? Or both? At least we can keep an eye on both. I have noticed over the years that I am not catching the size of salmon I use to. Too many fish on the range?

http://www.cbbulletin.com/399883.aspx

Looks like a lot of money heads home with seasonal workers in Alaska.
http://www.adn.com/article/feds-correct-ban-alaska-fish-processing-jobs-j-1-visa-program

The great "wild" bi-catch scam. Over loading the range and cutting the grass also.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/07/nation/na-alaska-fishing7
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 02, 2014, 09:14:41 AM
Page 75. :)
http://www.npafc.org/new/publications/Documents/PDF%202012/1422(Canada).pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 02, 2014, 09:22:49 AM
Fun fact for some. Hehe
http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/dooby-ous-activity-threatening-salmon/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 02, 2014, 10:37:22 AM
that's ridiculous....


you know though,  if these farms were on land the waste water would be ideal for the marijuana.  could help sick people and reduce the amount of waste.  love to see  marine harvest hire marc emery. could be a marriage made in the 'clouds' 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 02, 2014, 11:30:02 AM
that's ridiculous....


you know though,  if these farms were on land the waste water would be ideal for the marijuana.  could help sick people and reduce the amount of waste.  love to see  marine harvest hire marc emery. could be a marriage made in the 'clouds'
That is pot for thought Banx. But I think the Chemicals and antibiotics used on land based fish farms/hatcheries would not go over well with pot smokers. Not to mention what "some people think" is in those nasty feed pellets. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: banx on October 02, 2014, 01:02:25 PM
That is pot for thought Banx. But I think the Chemicals and antibiotics used on land based fish farms/hatcheries would not go over well with pot smokers. Not to mention what "some people think" is in those nasty feed pellets. :)

a big bag of doritos probably solve those problems.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 02, 2014, 01:44:57 PM
a big bag of doritos probably solve those problems.
Awesome Banx, thanks for the giggle hehe. Now why do I have a craving? :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 02, 2014, 03:49:16 PM
For Bawb and the long winded one who thinks the net penners get fish feed like "manna from heaven" without affecting other fish stocks:

http://www.undercurrentnews.com/2014/02/12/aquaculture-america-blog-us-aquaculture-farmers-missing-out-on-anti-trust-exemption-law/

Feb. 12, 9:21pm: Gulf of Mexico should replicate Alaska hatchery system, professor says

The Gulf of Mexico would benefit from taking a note from Alaska’s playbook, Daniel Benetti, professor and director of aquaculture at the University of Miami’s Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, told Undercurrent.

“I consider the wild salmon fisheries in Alaska to be perhaps the most successful aquaculture initiative ever developed in the United States,” Benetti said, referring to Alaska’s robust hatchery program, which supplies the fishery with a significant chunk of the fish caught in the wild each year. “I think perhaps we should apply that concept to the Gulf [of Mexico].”

The Gulf could be restocked with red snapper, red drum and any and all other native species to that area.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 02, 2014, 03:50:40 PM
that's ridiculous....


you know though,  if these farms were on land the waste water would be ideal for the marijuana.  could help sick people and reduce the amount of waste.  love to see  marine harvest hire marc emery. could be a marriage made in the 'clouds'
Yeah, wouldn't that be sweet!! I'm a big fan of Emery ... perhaps he and Almo could work together on this, lol!  Something tells me they have a few things in common  :D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 02, 2014, 03:54:31 PM
For Bawb and the long winded one who thinks the net penners get fish feed like "manna from heaven" without affecting other fish stocks:

http://www.undercurrentnews.com/2014/02/12/aquaculture-america-blog-us-aquaculture-farmers-missing-out-on-anti-trust-exemption-law/

Feb. 12, 9:21pm: Gulf of Mexico should replicate Alaska hatchery system, professor says

The Gulf of Mexico would benefit from taking a note from Alaska’s playbook, Daniel Benetti, professor and director of aquaculture at the University of Miami’s Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, told Undercurrent.

“I consider the wild salmon fisheries in Alaska to be perhaps the most successful aquaculture initiative ever developed in the United States,” Benetti said, referring to Alaska’s robust hatchery program, which supplies the fishery with a significant chunk of the fish caught in the wild each year. “I think perhaps we should apply that concept to the Gulf [of Mexico].”

The Gulf could be restocked with red snapper, red drum and any and all other native species to that area.
Are you suggesting fish hatcheries are the answer to fish farms ??
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 02, 2014, 03:59:29 PM
Just fanning the flames Dave. ;D
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 02, 2014, 04:16:44 PM
Just fanning the flames Dave. ;D
Right .. Gadsden is away .. hope he gives you a grouse or two for your work here  ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 02, 2014, 05:39:27 PM
Wow :). A compliment to salmon farmers from Doc Morton?

"Morton said that far from disproving the sea lice theory, rebounding wild salmon stocks can be credited to the changes to aquaculture practices that her research helped promote."
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=37&article_id=108209
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 02, 2014, 08:47:18 PM
Wow :). A compliment to salmon farmers from Doc Morton?

"Morton said that far from disproving the sea lice theory, rebounding wild salmon stocks can be credited to the changes to aquaculture practices that her research helped promote."
http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=37&article_id=108209

Bawb you may want to read that again.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 02, 2014, 09:14:07 PM
Bawb you may want to read that again.
Did you misplace your glasses TB? Or are you reading what you think you want to believe again? For a better idea of your backyard have a look at this vid TB. You just may learn something about the oceans that Doc Morton seems to not know. Starts to get good at 50 minutes. :)
http://youtu.be/38peWm76l-U
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 02, 2014, 09:58:16 PM
Did you misplace your glasses TB? Or are you reading what you think you want to believe again? For a better idea of your backyard have a look at this vid TB. You just may learn something about the oceans that Doc Morton seems to not know. Starts to get good at 50 minutes. :)
http://youtu.be/38peWm76l-U

Maybe just try to summarize it for me. I don't have time for the vid.
thanks tb
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 02, 2014, 10:42:11 PM
http://www.undercurrentnews.com/2014/02/12/aquaculture-america-blog-us-aquaculture-farmers-missing-out-on-anti-trust-exemption-law/

Feb. 12, 9:21pm: Gulf of Mexico should replicate Alaska hatchery system, professor says

The Gulf of Mexico would benefit from taking a note from Alaska’s playbook, Daniel Benetti, professor and director of aquaculture at the University of Miami’s Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, told Undercurrent.

“I consider the wild salmon fisheries in Alaska to be perhaps the most successful aquaculture initiative ever developed in the United States,” Benetti said, referring to Alaska’s robust hatchery program, which supplies the fishery with a significant chunk of the fish caught in the wild each year. “I think perhaps we should apply that concept to the Gulf [of Mexico].”

The Gulf could be restocked with red snapper, red drum and any and all other native species to that area.

Wild?  “Wild salmon fisheries”?  Well, they are not wild.  Using this logic means we should be calling hatchery salmon that are cultured in hatcheries wild salmon?  Juvenile salmon produced by ranch operations are artificially propagated so how can he call them “wild”.  I am not totally against hatcheries because there is a place for them and the folks here in this province do a good job with them, but I think it’s hilarious that fish farm opponents try to convince people that ranched salmon are wild.  With ranching operations, selected adult salmon are stripped of eggs and milt with the fertilized eggs cultured in a hatchery.  In the wild, do we go out in the river in our waders and start selecting which male salmon are going to mate with what female salmon or are both sexes allowed to pair-up naturally on the spawning grounds?

With ranching operations, the hatched juveniles are transferred from freshwater to saltwater net pens where they are continued to be cultured.  During this time they are fed feed pellets which can include antibiotics when required.  They can also be received vaccinations because they are now in an environment and at a size where they are even more vulnerable to pathogens.  Diseases like IHN are threats and can result in ranched salmon having to be destroyed (Hmmm…where have we heard this before???); however, protocols are in place to help reduce the risk of these diseases (Hmmm…would salmon hatcheries and salmon farms have protocols for pathogen control also?).  This fish husbandry helps give them a head start and improves their survival early in their life cycle.  Once large enough to compete for resources with wild salmon, these cultured salmon are released into the ocean where they forage for food and hopefully return back to the area of their release.  Ranched salmon make up close to 40% of the commercial catch in Alaska.  These ranching operations (also in Japan and Russia) have been successful, but when you look at the recent literature now at what cost to wild salmon?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 03, 2014, 03:49:39 PM
Well they seem to be doing pretty good as in no regular mass infections and fish being trucked off to the dump like around here.

There stats on the good work:
 http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/fishing/PDFs/hatcheries/2013_ak_hatcheries.pdf

and again because they banned salmon farming it has upset some folk. But if they raised them in land based tanks the same folk would be upset......it is what it is.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on October 03, 2014, 07:10:46 PM
http://www.farmed-salmon-boycott.com/news/fewer-salmon-farms-more-wild-salmon/

just filling in for Chris !
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 03, 2014, 07:11:03 PM
The Russians and the Japanese have been doing pretty good also with salmon ranching, but at what cost?  That's what the recent literature is saying - even those groups like Watershed Watch Salmon Society who are staunch critics of ocean net pen salmon farming are saying the same thing.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 03, 2014, 07:39:13 PM
http://www.farmed-salmon-boycott.com/news/fewer-salmon-farms-more-wild-salmon/

just filling in for Chris !

Morton latest attempt at glory is another case of trying to connect the dots by stretching/bending the lines, but omitting other information in order to make the case.  Her theory also neglects to mention the other factors that may be involved.  So much for other things mentioned in the Cohen Final Report.  Nope...it has to be the number of salmon farms, but as you can see below her data is incorrect.  It's been a tough season for her campaign because the salmon are not doing what she thought they would do.  The diversion rate for Fraser Sockeye this season through Johnstone Strait was unprecedented this season at 99% - right by those salmon farms near Campbell River.

http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/090314_correction_morton_september_3_2014_blog_fraser_river_sockeye_return2.pdf
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on October 03, 2014, 08:26:29 PM
Morton latest attempt at glory is another case of trying to connect the dots by stretching/bending the lines, but omitting other information in order to make the case.  Her theory also neglects to mention the other factors that may be involved.  So much for other things mentioned in the Cohen Final Report.  Nope...it has to be the number of salmon farms, but as you can see below her data is incorrect.  It's been a tough season for her campaign because the salmon are not doing what she thought they would do.  The diversion rate for Fraser Sockeye this season through Johnstone Strait was unprecedented this season at 99% - right by those salmon farms near Campbell River.

http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/090314_correction_morton_september_3_2014_blog_fraser_river_sockeye_return2.pdf

but steve thats just from the the farmers mouth ! back peddling as usual !
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 03, 2014, 08:27:01 PM
http://www.farmed-salmon-boycott.com/news/fewer-salmon-farms-more-wild-salmon/

just filling in for Chris !
Looks like Doc Morton does not know there are good and bad years for salmon returns. Making out like there will be good returns from now on is not the way to think. We knew there were odd and even year returns before net pens were thought of. Just taking a guess, next year will not be as good as this one. I hope it will be but if not, nature wins over our greed again.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on October 03, 2014, 08:29:33 PM
and how much is this gonna cost us over taxed tax payers ? no 1 ever answered that !

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2014/09/30/algae-kills-280k-farmed-fish
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 03, 2014, 08:32:25 PM
The diversion rate for Fraser Sockeye this season through Johnstone Strait was unprecedented this season at 99% - right by those salmon farms near Campbell River.
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/090314_correction_morton_september_3_2014_blog_fraser_river_sockeye_return2.pdf
Wonder how she will explain this one  :)
Mothership imploding ...
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 03, 2014, 08:47:55 PM
So your saying that the sea lice are more fatal to adult sockeye?

Or are the fish farms getting heavy handed with the SLICE on the lice?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on October 03, 2014, 08:55:10 PM
So your saying that the sea lice are more fatal to adult sockeye?

Or are the fish farms getting heavy handed with the SLICE on the lice?

Inquiring minds want to know.

think half of them were dead already TB with the major blum created by there feces !!!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 03, 2014, 09:08:54 PM
but steve thats just from the the farmers mouth ! back peddling as usual !

How can it be back peddling. It's publicly posted information that Morton got wrong. Are you saying that this map is wrong?

http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/all_companies_2013-07_out_migration_sites.pdf

No mention of missing data from Ms Morton huh?  Why do you think she omits those years? Why are other factors from Cohen are not mentioned? 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 03, 2014, 09:10:21 PM
Looks like Doc Morton does not know there are good and bad years for salmon returns. Making out like there will be good returns from now on is not the way to think. We knew there were odd and even year returns before net pens were thought of. Just taking a guess, next year will not be as good as this one. I hope it will be but if not, nature wins over our greed again.

Are you talking about Pinks or Sockeye?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: rjs on October 03, 2014, 09:13:47 PM
How can it be back peddling. It's publicly posted information that Morton got wrong. Are you saying that this map is wrong?

http://www.salmonfarmers.org./sites/default/files/all_companies_2013-07_out_migration_sites.pdf

No mention of missing data from Ms Morton huh?  Why do you think she omits those years? Why are other factors from Cohen are not mentioned?

but it's all put together by the farmers in there defense ! sorry...
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 03, 2014, 09:21:18 PM
Are you talking about Pinks or Sockeye?
I was talking all salmon in general. And I ment it as I hope it will be as good as this year. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 03, 2014, 09:32:16 PM
but it's all put together by the farmers in there defense ! sorry...

So, because this map was put together by salmon farmers it is incorrect?  Are you saying these sites don't exist? 
 
http://www.al.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/cabinet/finfish_tenures.pdf
 
Did it ever occur to you that Ms Morton doesn't necessarily cite where the map on her blog comes from?

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 03, 2014, 09:49:24 PM
I was talking all salmon in general. And I ment it as I hope it will be as good as this year. :)

Pinks are odd and even year.  They have a short, fixed 2 year life span.  With the Fraser, the odd year pinks are dominant whereas it can be the opposite in other places on the coast.

Most Fraser Sockeye return as 4 year olds.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 03, 2014, 10:00:22 PM
Pinks are odd and even year.  They have a short, fixed 2 year life span.  With the Fraser, the odd year pinks are dominant whereas it can be the opposite in other places on the coast.

Most Fraser Sockeye return as 4 year olds.
  Thanks Steve. :). I screwed up. Just saying we cant depend on the same number of salmon coming back each year.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 03, 2014, 10:08:13 PM
Well they seem to be doing pretty good as in no regular mass infections and fish being trucked off to the dump like around here.

There stats on the good work:
 http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/fishing/PDFs/hatcheries/2013_ak_hatcheries.pdf

and again because they banned salmon farming it has upset some folk. But if they raised them in land based tanks the same folk would be upset......it is what it is.
Yup they seem to be doing well TB.  ::)
"On the other hand, certain private nonprofit organizations focus on the pen-rearing of fish, and more traditional salmon raising techniques. Funds to support the nonprofit hatcheries come from two sources: an enhancement tax on fish caught by commercial fishermen, and a cost-recovery program that allows each operation to harvest and sell a certain number of fish each year."
http://www.jobmonkey.com/alaska/html/other_fisheries_jobs.html


  http://www.adn.com/article/biologists-look-ocean-clues-alaska-king-salmon-collapse
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 03, 2014, 10:58:16 PM
and how much is this gonna cost us over taxed tax payers ? no 1 ever answered that !

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2014/09/30/algae-kills-280k-farmed-fish

Not sure if it's going to cost taxpayers unless Marine Harvest was order to destroy fish.  We are not talking about a disease like IHN or ISA.

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/terrestrial-animals/diseases/compensation/eng/1313712524829/1313712773700

Salmon farmers in Canada received around 93 million over 3 years in compensation after being order to destroy farmed salmon - either infected farmed salmon or farmed salmon in close proximity to the infected ones.  Did you know that other farmers (land agriculture) get compensated also under the same legislation?  Taxpayers are paying for them also.  Are you angry about that?  What is provided in compensation to fish farmers is far less than what they would get if the fish survived to market.  If farm critics don't like this compensation that's fine, but then eliminate it for other farmers also.

http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/09/30/more-complaining-about-salmon-aquaculture-compensation-is-unmerited/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 04, 2014, 07:45:27 AM
Not sure if it's going to cost taxpayers unless Marine Harvest was order to destroy fish.  We are not talking about a disease like IHN or ISA.

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/terrestrial-animals/diseases/compensation/eng/1313712524829/1313712773700

Salmon farmers in Canada received around 93 million over 3 years in compensation after being order to destroy farmed salmon - either infected farmed salmon or farmed salmon in close proximity to the infected ones.

And how many of those companies on the west coast are Canadaian owned? So our tax money should be used to prop up off shore companies that fail?



 Did you know that other farmers (land agriculture) get compensated also under the same legislation?  Taxpayers are paying for them also.  Are you angry about that?  What is provided in compensation to fish farmers is far less than what they would get if the fish survived to market.  If farm critics don't like this compensation that's fine, but then eliminate it for other farmers also.

No business venture- NONE- should be getting our tax money to survive. I own a business and it's up to me to sink or swim.

http://salmonfarmscience.com/2014/09/30/more-complaining-about-salmon-aquaculture-compensation-is-unmerited/

Getting posting points from Bawb?
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 04, 2014, 10:36:33 AM
Getting posting points from Bawb?
Are you any better With your propaganda posting Nova? :)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_ownership_of_companies_of_Canada
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: salmonrook on October 04, 2014, 11:21:51 AM


Salmon farmers in Canada received around 93 million over 3 years in compensation after being order to destroy farmed salmon - either infected farmed salmon or farmed salmon in close proximity to the infected ones.  Did you know that other farmers (land agriculture) get compensated also under the same legislation?  Taxpayers are paying for them also.  Are you angry about that?  What is provided in compensation to fish farmers is far less than what they would get if the fish survived to market.  If farm critics don't like this compensation that's fine, but then eliminate it for other farmers also.

Salmon farmers dont own the land.I assume they pay a lease on it but that is not the same .They are not responsible for it the same way a livestock farmer would be .I know that all waters are owned by gov"t but its not a fair comparison.If a land based farmer wants to move his business he has to sell the land he is on.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: aquapaloosa on October 04, 2014, 11:56:58 AM
Quote
Salmon farmers dont own the land.I assume they pay a lease on it but that is not the same .They are not responsible for it the same way a livestock farmer would be .I know that all waters are owned by gov"t but its not a fair comparison.If a land based farmer wants to move his business he has to sell the land he is on.

Many cattle farmers lease land for their cattle to occupy.  I'm not sure what your getting at here SR.  Compensation is for the loss. It has nothing to do with land.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 04, 2014, 12:37:26 PM
Getting posting points from Bawb?

Maybe you need some posting points yourself.....

We are not talking about companies that fail (i.e. bankruptcy) and are bailed out for it - we are talking about legislated compensation given to farmers (aquaculture, beef, chicken, pig, etc.) when they are ordered by the same legislation to destroy their livestock or fish due to an infectious disease.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 04, 2014, 01:11:26 PM
Salmon farmers dont own the land.I assume they pay a lease on it but that is not the same .They are not responsible for it the same way a livestock farmer would be .I know that all waters are owned by gov"t but its not a fair comparison.If a land based farmer wants to move his business he has to sell the land he is on.

I agree with aqua, not sure where you are coming from as many farmers lease land to other farmers to use.  Farmers don't have to sell the land if they want to move.  That means that some farmers don't own the land they raise their crops or livestock on - someone else does. My late father-in-law was a farmer and leased out land to others.  Does the cattle rancher that has his cattle grazing on Crown Land (most land in BC is Crown Land) own that land? The fact is that grazing in BC is authorized under the Range Act. Do you think we should be concerned with livestock-caused changes to water quality, stream bank erosion and riparian habitat?

It is not the same because they are not responsible for it the same way a livestock farmer would be? Well...you are right it isn't the same...actually salmon farming deals with more regulations and legislation.
 
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/management-gestion/regs-eng.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 04, 2014, 05:45:02 PM
Maybe you need some posting points yourself.....

We are not talking about companies that fail (i.e. bankruptcy) and are bailed out for it - we are talking about legislated compensation given to farmers (aquaculture, beef, chicken, pig, etc.) when they are ordered by the same legislation to destroy their livestock or fish due to an infectious disease.


Politely put - utter codswallop. Automotive industry bailouts? Tax breaks for very profitable oil and gas companies? Same for the movie industry? and on and on.......

And just to put that utter load of BULL$&^T to rest about the feedlot crap factories, read this.

http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/21654/federal-400-million-fund-to-enhance-canadas-fishing-industry

or this

http://commonsensecanadian.ca/canadian-taxpayers-bail-norwegian-fish-farms-diseased-fish/

Don't let facts get in the way of you're drone of propaganda  ;)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 04, 2014, 06:52:55 PM
"More than 19,000 Newfoundlanders and Labradorians currently employed in the provincial fishing and aquaculture industry, primarily in rural areas of the province, will benefit directly from the new opportunities created with this funding." :)

Not sure what you are trying to put in the pot you are stirring Nova, but from where I am standing it still looks empty. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 04, 2014, 07:19:05 PM
  Thanks Steve. :). I screwed up. Just saying we cant depend on the same number of salmon coming back each year.

How unlike you Bawb. Best to just post a link to your favorite sites for people to read if they want some fiction. Keeps you at least a fingers length from the faxtx.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 04, 2014, 07:41:19 PM
Your pot looks empty also TB. Just a suggestion and this "is" simply a suggestion. You may make yourself look a bit more usefull if you put something worth listening too and a bit of substance in your pot. :)
  To me, thinking the same number of salmon coming back each year would be dreaming. That is why farming in Alaska, BC and Washington started. The wild fishery was simply not sustainable.
Hence to the jobs on net pen salmon farms in Alaska. And it looks like they also grow out salmon for market sale. :)
http://www.jobmonkey.com/alaska/html/other_fisheries_jobs.html
  Oops sorry, in alaska they like to call it fisheries jobs. My bad :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 04, 2014, 07:48:59 PM

Politely put - utter codswallop. Automotive industry bailouts? Tax breaks for very profitable oil and gas companies? Same for the movie industry? and on and on.......

What are you rambling on about...lol?  What does the Health of Animals Act have to do with bailouts and tax breaks?  Here's a mindblower for you.....It doesn't.  Once again we are talking about legislated compensation given to farmers (aquaculture, beef, chicken, pig, etc.) when they are ordered by the same legislation to destroy their livestock or fish due to an infectious disease.

Read the legislation....

Compensation to owners of animals

51. (1) The Minister may order compensation to be paid from the Consolidated Revenue Fund to the owner of an animal that is

(a) destroyed under this Act or is required by an inspector or officer to be destroyed under this Act and dies after the requirement is imposed but before being destroyed;
(b) injured in the course of being tested, treated or identified under this Act by an inspector or officer and dies, or is required to be destroyed, as a result of the injury; or
(c) reserved for experimentation under paragraph 13(2)(a).


http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/h-3.3/

Where does it talk about tax breaks and bailouts? You easterners eat too much codswallop that's probably the problem. Cut back on it.

Quote
And just to put that utter load of BULL$&^T to rest about the feedlot crap factories, read this.

http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/21654/federal-400-million-fund-to-enhance-canadas-fishing-industry

Did you notice that they refer to the fishing industry as a whole and not just one sector like aquaculture? Kind of missed that, huh?  But maybe you have a point...why should we be supporting fisheries in Newfoundland and Labrador anyway.  If they can't make a go of it then why should we be supporting them.  No business venture should be getting tax money.  Nobody is giving your business $400 million. I can see why you are so bitter.  Have a scotch.

Quote
or this

http://commonsensecanadian.ca/canadian-taxpayers-bail-norwegian-fish-farms-diseased-fish/

Don't let facts get in the way of you're drone of propaganda  ;)

This thread is called, "Get your facts straight" so maybe you should.  Reid is so ridiculous.

http://www.mainstream-group.com/portal/wps/wcm/connect/msca-content-en/mainstream-canada/news/conflict-and-criticism/blog+post+full+of+errors%2C+ignorance+about+salmon+farming+and+business

http://www.cermaq.com/wps/wcm/connect/msca-content-en/mainstream-canada/news/conflict-and-criticism/blogger+errs+again+in+claims+about+salmon+farms+and+compensation+


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 05, 2014, 07:54:18 AM
http://commonsensecanadian.ca/VIDEO-detail/60-minutes-grills-bc-salmon-farmers-government/
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 05, 2014, 08:25:08 AM
http://commonsensecanadian.ca/VIDEO-detail/60-minutes-grills-bc-salmon-farmers-government/
  Yup, another site that does not provide a link for the reader to make up their own mind on what they are reading. Looks like a good site for the loyal listening club. Just taking the sites word as fact is commonsense??? Your stiring pot is still empty Nova. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 05, 2014, 08:35:00 AM
Mainstream/ Cermaq is a model for.......deceptive baloney



http://fishfarmnews.blogspot.ca/2014/02/fish-farm-sewage-staggering-cause-algal.html

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/christophermajka/2012/12/down-our-throats-fed-salmon-feedlots

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/christophermajka/2012/12/down-our-throats-fed-salmon-feedlots

http://fishfarmnews.blogspot.ca/2013/12/mainstream-slaughtered-fish-money.html
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 05, 2014, 08:38:15 AM
The feedlot manipulation methods exposed......( smells like bawb amd brian)

http://www.spinwatch.org/index.php/component/k2/item/139-spinning-farmed-salmon-part-1-of-3


Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 05, 2014, 09:23:25 AM
The feedlot manipulation methods exposed......( smells like bawb amd brian)

http://www.spinwatch.org/index.php/component/k2/item/139-spinning-farmed-salmon-part-1-of-3
"The companies themselves are not local, but are almost all part of a transnational industry which is as likely to rear fish off the coast of Norway, Canada or Chile as Scotland."

More US poopaganda Nova. They left out Alaska, Washington and Maine. Just another site for the loyal listening club. Does "transnational industry" mean from wild to farmed? Seems to me that all the big farming companies use to be and some still are, in the wild catch business that was not sustainable to the growing population demand. Tis why your home province is utilizing both.
 Perhaps you should take the time to read your own post links before you waste your time stirring your empty pot. :)
http://m.thefishsite.com/news/21654
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: troutbreath on October 05, 2014, 11:58:07 AM
Why keep harping about the states? I live in Canada, BC so I'm more concerned about the affect of fish farms here. We could go on talking about some of the disasters in Chili if you want Bawb I don't want that happening here. Looks like enough farmed fish here are heading for the dump Bawbby. Your on the pot without a stir stick.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 05, 2014, 12:27:32 PM
Why keep harping about the states? I live in Canada, BC so I'm more concerned about the affect of fish farms here. We could go on talking about some of the disasters in Chili if you want Bawb I don't want that happening here. Looks like enough farmed fish here are heading for the dump Bawbby. Your on the pot without a stir stick.
I see you are blowing smoke again TB and its not from fanning the flames. You really need to put a log on your fire lol. You can start by telling us all where in BC salmon farming has harmed wild salmon. All I can see is it hurt the price of wild caught aka farmed Alaskan salmon.  Nothing wrong with competitive prices and consumer choice I say. :)
   Food for thought. :)
http://www.iser.uaa.alaska.edu/people/knapp/personal/Predict5a.htm
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 05, 2014, 08:05:57 PM
Why keep harping about the states? I live in Canada, BC so I'm more concerned about the affect of fish farms here. We could go on talking about some of the disasters in Chili if you want Bawb I don't want that happening here. Looks like enough farmed fish here are heading for the dump Bawbby. Your on the pot without a stir stick.


It's all about diversion TB. Bawb knows full well about his hero companies and the atrocious records elsewhere , but deflection and diversion  is a tactic common amongst the feedlot group. I've got a $10 bill to help Bawb go to visit the Alaskan legislature and straighten them..... Maybe Washington to address congress, because when Bawb speaks no one listens.

Red herring Bawbster, but it takes less courage or conviction than to really look at the issues, instead of putting up self serving bull$*&! spoon fed and written by his masters- try again Sonny!
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 05, 2014, 08:33:18 PM

It's all about diversion TB. Bawb knows full well about his hero companies and the atrocious records elsewhere , but deflection and diversion  is a tactic common amongst the feedlot group. I've got a $10 bill to help Bawb go to visit the Alaskan legislature and straighten them..... Maybe Washington to address congress, because when Bawb speaks no one listens.

Red herring Bawbster, but it takes less courage or conviction than to really look at the issues, instead of putting up self serving bull$*&! spoon fed and written by his masters- try again Sonny!
You may want to try some prune juice Nova. You seem a little on the cranky side of life. Really not sure why you would feel that way when folks back home are doing so well. :)
http://m.thefishsite.com/news/21654

If that did not cheer you up Nova this may. Life really is not to bad when you break free of all that doom and gloom poopaganda of yours. :)
http://youtu.be/SJUhlRoBL8M
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: salmonrook on October 05, 2014, 11:55:08 PM
Quote
I agree with aqua, not sure where you are coming from as many farmers lease land to other farmers to use.  Farmers don't have to sell the land if they want to move.  That means that some farmers don't own the land they raise their crops or livestock on - someone else does. My late father-in-law was a farmer and leased out land to others.  Does the cattle rancher that has his cattle grazing on Crown Land (most land in BC is Crown Land) own that land? The fact is that grazing in BC is authorized under the Range Act. Do you think we should be concerned with livestock-caused changes to water quality, stream bank erosion and riparian habitat?

It is not the same because they are not responsible for it the same way a livestock farmer would be? Well...you are right it isn't the same...actually salmon farming deals with more regulations and legislation.

 Whether leasing or owning the farmer  has more expense via land cost to run his business,part of the risk of running the business making it a failure or a success.
 Grazing on crown land is done in addition to land the the farmer already has,he does not raise his cattle exclusively on crown land with no bldg.
 He would have to have land and bldgs to house,feed and store his product.
 This is part of extra expense that he would incur,something the salmon farmer does not have to.
 Fact is that cattle would not do damage to the environment on such a large scale that the fish farms would.
 Thus the need for more regulations.
 Certainly a different business model ,many independant local farmers not 3 main large corporations,exporting products and profits out of our country while polluting our water with little regard.
 
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 06, 2014, 05:57:43 AM
A new word for you to learn all about today Bawb! (Hint - it means not selling your soul for a few trinkets or whatever compensation the feedlots toss your way there, Ms. Mary Ellen)

Integrity
in·teg·ri·ty
inˈteɡrədē/
noun
noun: integrity

    1.
    the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.
    "he is known to be a man of integrity"
    synonyms:   honesty, probity, rectitude, honor, good character, principle(s), ethics, morals, righteousness, morality, virtue, decency, fairness, scrupulousness, sincerity, truthfulness, trustworthiness
    "I never doubted his integrity"
    antonyms:   dishonesty
    2.
    the state of being whole and undivided.
    "upholding territorial integrity and national sovereignty"
    synonyms:   unity, unification, coherence, cohesion, togetherness, solidarity
    "the integrity of the federation"
    antonyms:   division
        the condition of being unified, unimpaired, or sound in construction.
        "the structural integrity of the novel"
        synonyms:   soundness, strength, sturdiness, solidity, durability, stability, stoutness, toughness
        "the structural integrity of the aircraft"
        antonyms:   fragility
        internal consistency or lack of corruption in electronic data.
        "integrity checking"

Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 06, 2014, 08:21:08 AM
I do admire your strong stand Nova and I must say I find it very entertaining watching you run in circles trying to catch your own tail. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 06, 2014, 03:21:19 PM
http://commonsensecanadian.ca/VIDEO-detail/60-minutes-grills-bc-salmon-farmers-government/

Been discussed before....
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=35528.msg338251#msg338251

The 60 minutes program was actually pretty fair and not a condemnation of salmon farming as spun by Nonsensecanadian.ca

However, Morton was incorrect when she said that nobody was looking at the wild fish for ISAv. Well, the fact is that the US and Canada have already been conducting surveillance of wild fish for the past 4 years.  No spin,...these are facts unless some folks think the WDFW is now involved in some conspiracy also:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/may3013a/
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/wild-anadromous-salmonids/eng/1370960326837/1370960742286
 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/west-coast-wild-salmon-test-negative-for-three-fish-diseases/article12488672/

Secondly, Morton still doesn't understand how virus testing works and continues this ignorance during the interview.  Been thoroughly discussed before, no time to go over it all over again.

Thirdly, Alaska is being held up like some shining model of fisheries management in the program when in reality there are some serious questions being raised by recent research about the release of billions of smolts (mostly Pink) by Japan, Russia and the US (i.e Alaska). None of these are touched on in the program. No mention of Alaskan wild Chinook stocks either.  No mention that ranched salmon account for about 40% of the commercial harvest. The program says that the state enjoys the biggest salmon fishery in the world; however, the program should have clarified what ranched salmon really are - they are not wild. They are artificially propagated.  Adult broodstock are selected by humans.  They are also held in ocean net pens (not as long as farmed fish), fed food pellets, and could be given antibiotics and vaccines.

Its not that I am against salmon ranching totally, but sometimes too much of good thing may not be so good. Also, let the viewing public see all sides of this instead of giving them only one angle to judge. Calling these ranched salmon as "wild" is misleading.

Lastly, as for presence of ISA or ISAv off our coast it's all contained in the Cohen Final Report (Volume 2: Declined Related Evidence and Findings). Expert testimony which included Dr. Kristi Miller, Dr. Fred Kibenge and Dr. Are Nylund all weighed in on this and said there is not sufficient evidence at this time to conclude the presence of either ISA or ISAv.  Folks do not have to take my word for it - they can read it for themselves.  Following the inquiry, viral surveillance programs (ongoing) by the US and Canada mentioned above did not find ISAv or ISA.  There was also no mention of the thousands of samples tested on BC fish farms which showed no ISA or ISAv - not to mention that if ISA were present on BC fish farms there would be mass mortality just like the Chilean example that Morton loves to use. Not sure why they interviewed a lawyer for that sort of question. That was a waste of time. All they had to do was call up Dr. Nylund and he would have told them.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: shuswapsteve on October 06, 2014, 03:56:41 PM
Whether leasing or owning the farmer  has more expense via land cost to run his business,part of the risk of running the business making it a failure or a success.

I am not sure about the figures in this regard however you seem to know.  Do you know what the difference is?

Quote
Grazing on crown land is done in addition to land the the farmer already has,he does not raise his cattle exclusively on crown land with no bldg.
 He would have to have land and bldgs to house,feed and store his product.
 This is part of extra expense that he would incur,something the salmon farmer does not have to.

You are right that part of the raising of cattle is done on both (Although again most land in the province is Crown Land…When you go hunting and fishing you will see cattle free ranging), but that is really not different from aquaculture where part of the raising of fish takes place outside of net pens in buildings that incubate eggs before they hatch.  Smolts are reared in tanks, in buildings, before being introduced to the ocean pens.  Salmon farmers would also have to have buildings to store feed and product.  It’s the coast of BC where rain is a common occurrence so why wouldn’t they have buildings?  Fish feed needs to be kept in freezers (which would require some sort of building) so that it doesn’t spoil.  I used to work at fish hatchery as a student.  So in a nutshell, yes, even salmon farmers have expenses in this regard.

Quote
Fact is that cattle would not do damage to the environment on such a large scale that the fish farms would.
 Thus the need for more regulations.
 Certainly a different business model ,many independant local farmers not 3 main large corporations,exporting products and profits out of our country while polluting our water with little regard.

Well, I will refer you to the Cohen Final Report where salmon farming was no more of a leading factor as other impacts which includes land-based agricultural practices.  If salmon farming here is creating large scale damage please show me your evidence (but this could turn into another circular argument).  I believe the need for more regulations is combination of things such as the environment fish farms are located in where multiple agencies are involved as well as the public concern over aquaculture and governments reaction to it.  I don’t believe the regulations are in place necessarily because aquaculture does more damage, but more for the potential of damage.  When you think about it more focus is put on aquaculture where other activities are presently flying under the radar and are likely doing more harm.  It’s a case where the squeaky wheel gets the grease, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Dave on October 06, 2014, 04:48:31 PM
Wow, I admire your passion for free thinking Brian, and your usual links for helping to do so!  Considering the stress of your day job at this time of year, that was an admiral post :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 06, 2014, 05:15:55 PM
Wow, I admire your passion for free thinking Brian, and your usual links for helping to do so!  Considering the stress of your day job at this time of year, that was an admiral post :)
  I concur. You give us a great perspective Steve and I thank you for your posts that keeps the mind open and something to think about each day. It is people like you that got me out of the doom and gloom small box and started me thinking about the big picture.   :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 06, 2014, 05:19:42 PM
  I concur. You give us a great perspective Steve and I thank you for your posts that keeps the mind open and something to think about each day. It is people like you that got me out of the doom and gloom small box and started me thinking about the big picture.   :)

Too bnad you're watching it on a small screen. :o
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 06, 2014, 05:33:56 PM
Too bnad you're watching it on a small screen. :o
PUI is not a good idea Nova. Try again in the morning. :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Fisherbob on October 06, 2014, 07:17:28 PM
What are you rambling on about...lol?  What does the Health of Animals Act have to do with bailouts and tax breaks?  Here's a mindblower for you.....It doesn't.  Once again we are talking about legislated compensation given to farmers (aquaculture, beef, chicken, pig, etc.) when they are ordered by the same legislation to destroy their livestock or fish due to an infectious disease.

Read the legislation....

Compensation to owners of animals

51. (1) The Minister may order compensation to be paid from the Consolidated Revenue Fund to the owner of an animal that is

(a) destroyed under this Act or is required by an inspector or officer to be destroyed under this Act and dies after the requirement is imposed but before being destroyed;
(b) injured in the course of being tested, treated or identified under this Act by an inspector or officer and dies, or is required to be destroyed, as a result of the injury; or
(c) reserved for experimentation under paragraph 13(2)(a).


http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/h-3.3/

Where does it talk about tax breaks and bailouts? You easterners eat too much codswallop that's probably the problem. Cut back on it.

Did you notice that they refer to the fishing industry as a whole and not just one sector like aquaculture? Kind of missed that, huh?  But maybe you have a point...why should we be supporting fisheries in Newfoundland and Labrador anyway.  If they can't make a go of it then why should we be supporting them.  No business venture should be getting tax money.  Nobody is giving your business $400 million. I can see why you are so bitter.  Have a scotch.

This thread is called, "Get your facts straight" so maybe you should.  Reid is so ridiculous.

http://www.mainstream-group.com/portal/wps/wcm/connect/msca-content-en/mainstream-canada/news/conflict-and-criticism/blog+post+full+of+errors%2C+ignorance+about+salmon+farming+and+business

http://www.cermaq.com/wps/wcm/connect/msca-content-en/mainstream-canada/news/conflict-and-criticism/blogger+errs+again+in+claims+about+salmon+farms+and+compensation+
Just had to bump you up Steve. Thanks again :)
Title: Re: Get your facts straight?
Post by: Novabonker on October 06, 2014, 09:54:49 PM
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/Hear-No-Evil-See-No-Evil-Speak-No-Evil-Iphone-Wallpap