Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Get your facts straight?  (Read 1309519 times)

troutbreath

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2908
  • I does Christy
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #480 on: November 08, 2013, 07:48:02 PM »

Now you are seeing the big picture like a good obedient listener. :) i see you read volume 3 page 24. Good for you.


?????? Back away from the bottle buddy.
Logged
another SLICE of dirty fish perhaps?

Fisherbob

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1346
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #481 on: November 08, 2013, 08:26:52 PM »


?????? Back away from the bottle buddy.

Not bad for a dreamer. :)
Logged

Novabonker

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1447
Logged
http://

brownmancheng

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 287
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #484 on: November 09, 2013, 03:32:15 PM »

My favorite part is: we haven't done very much Bc there was no smoking gun.
This government is ridiculous. I'm sure everyone was expecting a simple solution to a complex problem  :o

Seems to me if there are many issues should we not be also taking a multi pronged approach?
Logged

Novabonker

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1447
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #485 on: November 10, 2013, 06:33:07 AM »

My favorite part is: we haven't done very much Bc there was no smoking gun.
This government is ridiculous. I'm sure everyone was expecting a simple solution to a complex problem  :o

Seems to me if there are many issues should we not be also taking a multi pronged approach?

Agreed. They spent that much for Tony Clement's gazebos, not to mention a BILLION on the G 20 meeting. A national resource and priceless treasure? They dig the change out of the couch, muzzle science and drag their feet.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 06:41:01 AM by Novabonker »
Logged
http://

shuswapsteve

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 894
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #486 on: November 12, 2013, 09:25:12 PM »


The past denials through communication sites regarding sea lice.  The actual TONNAGE of drugs dropped into our ocean as well as a complete ignorance towards the future and the potential consequences of open net farming.  The lack of farms to move on recommendations and the amount of effort put forth to 'educate' the public.... and the visual impact of having a farm sitting in one of the most beautiful parts of the world.

I just provided you an example of how the BC fish farming industry is partnering with government and non-governmental organizations with this Fish Health Initiative.  Why you continue to remain ignorant to this mystifies me because I directed you to the actual proposed study.  The fact is that the BC industry supports the recommendation put forward by Cohen.  It is in their best interests to get the ball rolling on this.  Ironically, it is the Federal Government and fish farm activists that are involved in either shelving the recommendations or pushing the blame to subordinates below, or coming up with their own version of the recommendations which are not based in fact (i.e. Salmon Confidential).

Quote
What truly boggles my mind, is that someone who appears to be as intelligent as you can support such a....... crime.

I support defensible science and factual information.  I like to look at the whole issue instead of being fixated on just one aspect.  I support those that actually know what they are talking about with regards to Pacific Salmon biology or fish pathology rather than those (i.e. Morton) that know little about both and actually mislead the public in the process.  I also support those that question the theories and opinions presented by anti fish farm activists instead of taking what they say at face value.  If the cause of activists is so right and just then there should be no need for false claims and misinformation; however, that is exactly what we are getting.  Sorry, I do not subscribe to fear mongering and the “ends justify the means” mentality of many anti-fish farm activists.  If being intelligent is to throw out critical thinking, exaggerate, make false claims and be afraid to question so-called “Warriors of Wild Salmon” then I agree I have a different mind set than you do on this.  What is a “crime” is to be afraid to not just question industry or government, but to not question critics of fish farming in BC out of fear of being labelled as corrupted or not loving wild salmon.  If the theories presented by critics are so solid then they should have no problem defending them.  More often than not, people that oppose fish farming in BC follow others –like sheep off a cliff – instead of looking at the whole issue.  Furthermore, I suggest that many of these activists that claim to love wild salmon know very little about them.  In my opinion, this is the type of issue where one should at least show some interest in things like Fraser Sockeye if they are going to hold them so dear to their heart.  For instance, there was this one fellow on this other forum that claimed that the big return of 2010 Adams River Sockeye was because those returning Adams Sockeye adults migrated back through the Strait of Juan de Fuca and therefore missed all the salmon farms between Vancouver Island and the mainland.  However, that is totally false and the information to disprove this myth is actually not hard to find if one goes to the Pacific Salmon Commission website.  The fact is that at the end of August 2010, approximately 94% of the Late Run Sockeye (which includes Late South Thompson Sockeye like the Adams) diverted through Johnstone Strait.

Additionally, some activists believe that a dead fish is supposed to retain its red gills as it decomposes.  If the gills are white then it is suspicious.  Of course, there is no mention that migrating adult salmon that enter freshwater undergo putrefaction and cell autolysis and that this is accelerated once the fish is dead and is exposed to nature’s elements.  No, instead let’s jump right to something suspicious with no evidence and blame salmon farms.  Yeah, that takes intelligence.  The other myth being peddled by activists are that Harrison Sockeye do not die before spawning.  Similar to understanding fish farming practices in BC, if people are going to take up the cause of wild salmon then they should take the time to learn something about them or at least concede when they do not and perhaps learn something in the process.

I support the responsible work being done right now that is currently addressing some of these issues, but is not getting mentioned in the media.  Unlike fish farm activists and the Federal Conservative cabinet, I support the recommendations in the Cohen Report.  I believe it is a “crime” to put most of your faith in perceptions and masquerading them as facts.

Quote
if you really were as informed as you claim to be, you would know that the "need for more protein for the human population" is a farce.  That a redistribution of wealth, rather, a reduction in how much food we waste would be better for the human population than putting more of these pens in pristine oceans.

If you were as informed as you claim to be you would realize that aquaculture globally is increasing each year and is not going away.  Don’t take my word for it – check out information from the FAO.  So, you can preach the redistribution theory till you turn blue in the face.  What is not a bottomless pit has been our desire to repeatedly pillage our “pristine” oceans of wild fish species in mixed stock fisheries where weaker stocks are frequently captured with stronger ones.  Really…pristine??  Of course the only impacts to our oceans are those nasty fish farms.  Those primary sewage systems that pump directly into the ocean are just useful fertilizer.  Yeah, humans have kept the oceans pristine before aquaculture began.  Give me a break…lol.  By now you must have come across the work of Randall Peterman in the report.  What does he have to say?  Do you believe he has some valuable information that adds to our greater understanding of the issue?

Quote
edit: I did read volume 2. Isa is found in pacific salmon.  and if ISA gets atlantics sick, errrr actually it kills them.  wouldn't you want to remove your investment from that environment?  thats what a smart person would do.

To clarify, Pacific Salmon were experimentally infected with ISAv but were found to be largely resistant to developing the disease (ISA).  In Volume 2, Dr. Kibenge stated that Pacific Salmon are not known to develop ISA (Vol. 2, Chapter 4, pg. 61).  As you have found out already there is no amount of manufacturing you can do to create an epidemic of ISA here.  As you have found out already in the Cohen Report, the findings were clear about what was found and what was not.

In regards to Dr. Molly Kibenge’s findings of ISAv you forgot to mention her husband’s opinion of the samples from Cultus Lake as well as the 20 blinds samples (10 positive and 10 negative in Molly Kibenge’s samples) sent to be tested at his lab at the Atlantic Veterinary College.  Dr. Fred Kibenge was able to confirm that 6 of the samples were positive, but 3 of these were in Dr. Molly Kibenge’s negative samples and 3 were in her positive samples.  Following that, the collective decision was to send the samples to the Moncton lab for re-testing using the same primers and kits that Dr. Molly Kibenge used.  These additional tests were unable to find positive results.  Further testing was done after that using the validated real-time PCR test as well as the Snow segment 8 primers.  These additional tests were unable to find positive results (Cohen Final Report; Vol. 1.; Chapter 9; page 458).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 09:29:11 PM by shuswapsteve »
Logged

banx

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 350
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #487 on: November 13, 2013, 06:49:57 AM »

Steve, yes I am well aware of the increasing amount of aqualculture around the world.  some of my philipino friends talk about about a lot of destruction to put shrimp farms in.  I saw first hand the grass roots push to stop mangrove destruction in belize as well.

I have the doom and gloom attitude because us humans have a fairly dismal track record on a lot of things..... and suffered in many areas of the world because of development.  History has a tendency to repeat itself unfortunately.

Again steve, I dont think i'm being ignorant to the fact that the BC salmon farming industry is trying to a better job.  You guys are definitely trying. But the consequences are huge.... and with our beaurocratic process being slower than molasses its going to be years before " a proposed study" is completed and acted on..... decades is more realistic.

I just don't want you to be wrong.  really.   

I think they should be on land. Thats my beef. Every time I maintain my aquarium or test the water, I think how the hell are these guys doing this on a farm....  Science knows more about the moon than it does about the ocean.  Thats a scary fact.  But its cool to continue the practice in your eyes....

and yes there are tons of things (industries) that are also ruining our oceans.  But there are regulations and testing in place (now) to try and keep environmental impacts to a minimum. it's not 1964 anymore. If your industry is heavily regulated, most others are as well....Thats pure deflection as my wife would say.

I still have a couple hundred pages left on the report too... been a lil busy.

on a side note... you should come to the fly fishing film tour on dec 5th in vancouver.  I will buy you a beer and you can elaborate some more...... your helping a worthy cause.

I guarantee you no farmed atlantic salmon or wild fraser sockeye will be harmed during the evening.  :)

Logged

Fisherbob

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1346
Logged

shuswapsteve

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 894
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #489 on: November 18, 2013, 04:30:49 PM »

Again steve, I dont think i'm being ignorant to the fact that the BC salmon farming industry is trying to a better job.  You guys are definitely trying. But the consequences are huge.... and with our beaurocratic process being slower than molasses its going to be years before " a proposed study" is completed and acted on..... decades is more realistic.

First, I don't work in the BC fish farm industry as I indicated many pages ago now, so when you say "you guys" I have no idea why you are still making that association.  Second, the study I mentioned is going ahead, so I shouldn't have said "proposed".  Third, studies like this are not done in a few months and reported on immediately.  If you want fast studies with very little regard for science then Morton is the person to put your faith into.  Consequences could be high, but Cohen also indicated that there was no smoking gun either.  He also didn't find evidence that salmon farms were the cause of the declines or that diseases were out of control on BC fish farms.  Cohen is accepting that there is some risk posted to wild Fraser River Sockeye salmon which is understandable because there is always risk to any industry of development in and around water.  In order to address whether this risk is greater he made recommendations to hopefully find the answers people are looking for.  The problem is that researchers (governmental and non-governmental) have been using data sets over a relatively short time scale.  This was mentioned by Josh Korman during testimony.  Cohen wants to see more data collected to over a larger time scale so more definitive conclusions can be made.  The study I directed you to is meant to address that.  That being said, I believe there are far worse consequences/challenges on the horizon for Fraser Sockeye than fish farms.  In my opinion, I believe Morton has created a public fearful of viruses and diseases to the point where critical thinking and objectively is lost.  Pacific salmon have lived and will continue live with viruses and diseases if net-pens are used or not.

Quote
I think they should be on land. Thats my beef. Every time I maintain my aquarium or test the water, I think how the hell are these guys doing this on a farm....  Science knows more about the moon than it does about the ocean.  Thats a scary fact.  But its cool to continue the practice in your eyes....

Well, if you are still thinking about how the hell they are doing it then why do you take a tour of fish farm?  It is "cool" to gather information to make informed decisions - not react to fear based on unsubstantiated claims or misinformation.  That would be "uncool".

Quote
and yes there are tons of things (industries) that are also ruining our oceans.  But there are regulations and testing in place (now) to try and keep environmental impacts to a minimum. it's not 1964 anymore. If your industry is heavily regulated, most others are as well....Thats pure deflection as my wife would say.

Not a deflection at all.  You are the one that brought up "pristine" oceans which was like throwing me fat pitch across the plate ready to be hit out of the park.  You just merely want to forget about what others are doing and focus on fish farms.  Do you think grey water is always disposed of properly by good stewards of the environment?  The fact is that the BC fish farm industry here is very regulated - more so than other industries that work in and around water.  Look into it.  The aquaculture industry here is more regulated than other places that engage in aquaculture.  There are regulations and testing done on BC fish farms to try to keep environmental impacts to a minimum - it is not 1964 anymore. :)
Logged

banx

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 350
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #490 on: November 18, 2013, 05:25:11 PM »

well steve, referring to you as "you guys" simply means you support pens in the ocean.

 "Consequences could be high, but Cohen also indicated that there was no smoking gun either.  He also didn't find evidence that salmon farms were the cause of the declines or that diseases were out of control on BC fish farms.  Cohen is accepting that there is some risk posted to wild Fraser River Sockeye salmon which is understandable because there is always risk to any industry of development in and around water.  In order to address whether this risk is greater he made recommendations to hopefully find the answers people are looking for.  The problem is that researchers (governmental and non-governmental) have been using data sets over a relatively short time scale. "

So the consequences are high, the recommendations are not being acted upon and the scientific process is slow. These are great ingredients for some troubling times..... hopefully we will find some answers.

Our ocean is pristine in my eyes.  Maybe you see it differently, but I'm fairly confident that they are pristine. I don't know how you think your hitting a home run here.  Do you think our coast is a disaster area full of toxic substances, void of life and nothing edible?

 I find that an interesting observation considering the millions of tourists that visit BC yearly to see our 'pristine' ocean and coast line. Not even including the cruise ship passengers who pay thousands for a peek of what we live in.  maybe you've seen more of BC than most. But I consider BC spectacular, especially our coast.

being informed is cool. it's why I have taken the time to read the report, read the links posted... to have an educated opinion. Thats what it is now..... Like I said previously, I have visited hatceries on numerous occasions and have a friend employed by one.  I might have an opportunity to visit a farm and would appreciate the learning experience. Though I have taken 'virtual' tours and seen the opposite in youtube videos.

I am well aware of what other industries do and how most are regulated.  ::)   I just find it ammusing, and this is obvious where we differ in opinions. Your proud and boisterous of the fact that BC has the strongest regulations regarding aqualculture in the world. you love it... it's mentioned in nearly every post.

See, I think thats not even something to be proud of.... that should be a minimal expectation. So your proud the industry is not trying to screw everything up.

maybe you really do think its 1964 because your accepting of a fact that aquaculture is TRYING TO MINIMIZE the environmental impact when they can nearly eliminate it all together.


the smoking picture I posted a while back sums it up all nicely.... Dr. Steve



Logged

Dave

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3377
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #491 on: November 18, 2013, 07:05:30 PM »

Banx, I think I have read every post by Shuswapsteve, here on FWR as well as his posts on other fishing forums.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I do not recall him ever saying he is in favour of open net salmon farming.  What he does continually say is do your homework, think critically, and do not just buy into the media induced phobia against salmon farms, by people with sketchy agendas (think Staniford et al).

That makes sense to me as after over 30 years of salmon farming here in BC and Washington State, there have never been any, that is a total of none, documented mortalities to wild salmon attributed to famed Atlantic's.   Conversely, over those same 30 odd years how many streams have been decimated by urban encroachment?  How much salmonid habitat has been lost to poor horticultural and agricultural practices? How many stocks have been overfished into near oblivion? Who would have thought that the average Fraser River summer temperature would have risen by 2 degrees in the last 50 years, or the spring freshet would be weeks earlier than the long term hydrograph, due to climate change?
You suggest the BC salmon farming industry could be stopped immediately; please inform readers, the ones who don't catch and kill their own hatchery salmon, where they should purchase a salmon to consume because BC has no wild salmon stocks with populations robust enough, commercially, to satisfy this demand.  What would you propose the Province of BC do with the people who have 4-5 thousand direct jobs attributed to this industry?
Bottom line, the only people and business's who would benefit from removing salmon farms from BC is the Alaskan salmon ranching industry. 

Hmmm...
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 07:07:41 PM by Dave »
Logged

banx

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 350
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #492 on: November 18, 2013, 07:37:36 PM »

well there would be a progression I would expect. I understand the economical impact, for sure. But the environmental impacts far outweight any positive impacts $ can have. even if it is considered a 'potential'. you can not insure the water.  People have adapted and changed and survived. Do you expect those four thousand people to give up, starve and die..... I wouldn't expect that. people lose jobs in industries all the time, and for greedier reasons.

Considering the highest standards incorporated in bc salmon farming, I think its a safe assumption that these same pioneers be the best to lead the way to closed containment pens.

I also appreciate where you (guys) are coming from pointing at urban development as well as other industries decimating habitat and eliminating salmon spawing streams completely. There will never be any comparison between the damage a salmon farm COULD do with what has already taken place. There is no denying that.

But what you are failing to recognize, and I wish I could be more articulate instead of emotional, but there is a change happening.  People are starting to care.  they are working and volunteering. In those 30 years of farms your talking about, streams that were struggling to sustain life are now having positive changes. You can see it here in the lower mainland in particular. There is a lot of hatchery work, but things are looking better than they are worse.

If people are starting to see positive changes in their immediate environment its only natural that it would progress to areas not to far away.... ie our pristine oceans.

you see it in the political arena and expect salmon farms to be a future corncern for more people as they become more educated. the pipeline is an obvious example..... I had a hard time watching salmon confidential. Mostly that I couldn't believe that was happening in BC,  that what they were portraying couldn't be taking place.... theres no way...an exageration.  I don't support morton and some of the stuff I've read on my side of the fence seems far fetched at best.

but there is no denying that this 'industry' is better off on land for all of us.  It needs to start at some point, and now is as good as any.


« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 07:42:39 PM by banx »
Logged

Fisherbob

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1346
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #493 on: November 18, 2013, 08:01:33 PM »

« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 08:45:18 PM by Fisherbob »
Logged

salmonrook

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 216
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #494 on: November 19, 2013, 01:18:01 AM »


Bottom line, the only people and business's who would benefit from removing salmon farms from BC is the Alaskan salmon ranching industry. 

Hmmm...

Is it not true that 98% of the fish farms are owned by Norwegian interests.Surely most revenues would not stay in the country.Whats the benefit for us ?
 Is it also true that most of the exports go to the US.
Why would we continue on this road, so we can provide the US with cheap farmed fish at the expense of our environment .
Surely the jobs lost can be found elsewhere supportting a sport fishing industry or tourism.
Logged