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Author Topic: Get your facts straight?  (Read 1309151 times)

Novabonker

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #510 on: November 22, 2013, 10:35:48 AM »

There you go again, telling me I'm promoting Ms. Morton - one more time, show me where. Can't find it? Doesn't exist. The only thing I look at is tangible common sense, not self serving propaganda sites, financed by special interest groups. Dumping poop, antibiotics and chemicals, bringing in a foreign species,  elevated disease levels, elevated sea lice levels, (diseases have proven to mutate) -  all in pristine waters is lacking common sense, critical thought and poor environmental stewardship.But you know that already.....
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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #511 on: November 22, 2013, 03:51:54 PM »

There you go again, telling me I'm promoting Ms. Morton - one more time, show me where. Can't find it? Doesn't exist. The only thing I look at is tangible common sense, not self serving propaganda sites, financed by special interest groups. Dumping poop, antibiotics and chemicals, bringing in a foreign species,  elevated disease levels, elevated sea lice levels, (diseases have proven to mutate) -  all in pristine waters is lacking common sense, critical thought and poor environmental stewardship.But you know that already.....
You sure like to add to what I post NB. No wonder you believe all that American marketing guanda and think I am a fish farmer. :) too funny.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #512 on: November 22, 2013, 10:02:52 PM »

well steve, referring to you as "you guys" simply means you support pens in the ocean.

Here we go again.  As Dave correctly stated, I do not care for media and activist induced phobia against salmon farms – especially from those that do not know what they are talking about (namely Ms Morton and Mr. Staniford).  I do not really care if BC fish farmers decide to go close containment.  What I do care about are the conclusions being made by activists to justify their position that net pens are as destructive on BC wild salmon as they claim they are.  In my opinion, many of their theories are based on ignorance and misinformation and actually do science a disservice in the long run rather than enhance it.  I care that wild salmon are actually being forgot by activists that seem more focused on an agenda against the industry instead of the long term viability of wild salmon and the research to find answers.  I support defensible science done by people that know what they are doing - looking for answers instead of being solely focused on one culprit and trying to build a case around that.  If pens are more than a minimal impact in those areas identified by Cohen then I am willing to change my opinions as I indicated earlier in this thread.

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So the consequences are high, the recommendations are not being acted upon and the scientific process is slow. These are great ingredients for some troubling times..... hopefully we will find some answers.

Consequences can be high with other things we do in and around water; however, rarely does one factor work in isolation of another.  This is why trying to find a “smoking gun” in this equation is often difficult to do – contrary to what anti fish farm activist lead us to believe.  What you are doing is focusing solely on fish farms as the immediate and present danger and this is not what Cohen found or wanted people to take from the report.  If you finally cared to look at the work from Peterman and Dorner in the report you will notice low Sockeye productivity is being seen outside of the Fraser River as far as some systems in Alaska.  While reading the report you likely noticed this also:

“I am also satisfied that marine conditions in both the Strait of Georgia and Queen Charlotte Sound in 2007 were likely to be the primary factors responsible for the poor returns in 2009. Abnormally high freshwater discharge, warmer-than-usual sea surface temperatures, strong winds, and lower-than-normal salinity may have resulted in abnormally low phytoplankton and nitrate concentrations that could have led to poor zooplankton (food for sockeye) production.” (Volume 3, page 59)

What this indicates is that there is likely much more going on which is going to involve further scientific investigation.  When you notice the huge Pink Salmon returns this season along with the rebound in Sockeye numbers from the 2009 brood it also suggests that things are not so easily explained as some anti-fish farm activists think they are.  This “pristine” ocean you are talking about is slightly more complex that you give it credit for.  There is actually more going on.  Like you said already, we probably know more about the moon than we do about our oceans.  In my opinion, if fish farms here are so destructive as activists claim they are we would be seeing some of their theories come true; instead, when their theories don’t pan out they look for alternative answers which make no sense.  For instance, one staunch anti-fish farm individual on another forum suggested that the reason BC fish farms cannot find ISAv was because they killed them for market before they died of ISA; if they lived longer they would have eventually die of ISA. Really?  The fact is that ISA is a deadly disease for Atlantic Salmon – they would have died before they reached market size.  It does not make any sense if critics are using Chile as an example.

Another theory from another staunch fish farm opponent was what if the ISA strain were an altered strain (something viruses do, he said) – that affected wild stocks, but was not as bad for Atlantics.  The problem with theory is that it conflicts with what fish farm critics have been long saying about ISAv being spread by egg imports from Norway to Chile to here.  So, am I to assume that ISAv was spread here by egg imports from Norway (the same thing that happened to Chile that killed millions of farmed Atlantic Salmon), mutated into a strain that was no longer highly pathogenic to Atlantic Salmon and only affects wild salmon off BC.  That is one magic virus – like the magic bullet theory in Dallas, TX a long time ago.  Not only is this theory not supported by any evidence, but it runs contrary to what we already know about ISAv and ISA.  It runs contrary to what expert testimony (Miller, Kibenge, and Nylund) stated at the Cohen Inquiry.

Lastly, as for the recommendations not being acted upon, that needs clarification.  The fact is that there are some things being acted upon and have been prior to the release of the report.  One of the big problems here is that that this is not being reported in the media and relayed to the public.  Somehow government is reluctant to let people know. 

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I find that an interesting observation considering the millions of tourists that visit BC yearly to see our 'pristine' ocean and coast line. Not even including the cruise ship passengers who pay thousands for a peek of what we live in.  maybe you've seen more of BC than most. But I consider BC spectacular, especially our coast.

I did not say that our coastline was so polluted that it is scaring away tourists; however, our oceans are far from pristine now as we (you and me and everyone else) have all played their parts with impacts.  So, when you talk about the benthic impacts of BC fish farms on our pristine ocean you then proceed to hop, skip and jump over many other players and minimize their contribution and focused solely on fish farms - as if fish farms have now created the imbalance.  Look around you.  Look at other industries and human activities in and around our “pristine” oceans before you start pointing fingers at aquaculture as the big offender.  It is not deflection – it is about being fair with criticism.

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I am well aware of what other industries do and how most are regulated.  I just find it ammusing, and this is obvious where we differ in opinions. Your proud and boisterous of the fact that BC has the strongest regulations regarding aqualculture in the world. you love it... it's mentioned in nearly every post.

See, I think thats not even something to be proud of.... that should be a minimal expectation. So your proud the industry is not trying to screw everything up.[/quote]

LOL…..I am just saying that the BC industry here has some strong regulations that are actually more stringent than many places in the world that have aquaculture.  You seem to believe that things are so lax and unregulated with BC fish farms.  It is not about being “proud” or “loving it”.  I have no idea what you are trying to say in the next paragraph.  Ahh….yeah, I am glad the industry is not trying to screw everything up…..Yeah…you got me there….I am glad CN Rail has emergency procedures in place in case there is a train derailment……I am glad that when I fly in a commercial airline that the pilot is trained to not only fly the plane, but is able to deal with emergencies…….just like I am glad you stop at controlled pedestrian crosswalks to let pedestrians cross the road instead of hitting them….lol.  Really??  But thanks for telling me how “aware” you are.  I am comforted now.
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Novabonker

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #513 on: November 23, 2013, 07:35:14 AM »

You sure like to add to what I post NB. No wonder you believe all that American marketing guanda and think I am a fish farmer. :) too funny.


My deepest apologies - Apparently, you work for a PR firm hired by the feedlots instead. My mistake.
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dnibbles

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #514 on: November 23, 2013, 09:08:08 AM »


My deepest apologies - Apparently, you work for a PR firm hired by the feedlots instead. My mistake.

Steve works for a company that has pretty much the worst PR reps around. Good stuff.

Aren't you guys getting bored yet? It's like Groundhog Day poking my head back into this thread after more than a month off.
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Dave

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #515 on: November 23, 2013, 01:55:41 PM »

Steve works for a company that has pretty much the worst PR reps around. Good stuff.

LOL!!  You haven't been sent to Nunavut yet I see ;)
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Novabonker

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #516 on: November 23, 2013, 05:36:57 PM »

Steve works for a company that has pretty much the worst PR reps around. Good stuff.

Aren't you guys getting bored yet? It's like Groundhog Day poking my head back into this thread after more than a month off.

Nope - as long as the feedlotters spread bovine droppings, I'll be there to correct them. :)
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #517 on: November 23, 2013, 09:30:17 PM »

Nope - as long as the feedlotters spread bovine droppings, I'll be there to correct them. :)

I just corrected you on another thread.  You are so welcome.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #518 on: November 23, 2013, 09:34:18 PM »

Steve works for a company that has pretty much the worst PR reps around. Good stuff.

Aren't you guys getting bored yet? It's like Groundhog Day poking my head back into this thread after more than a month off.

The worst?  You are being too nice to them..lol.  Unfortunately, the ground troops are getting the shaft.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #519 on: November 23, 2013, 10:06:13 PM »

I also appreciate where you (guys) are coming from pointing at urban development as well as other industries decimating habitat and eliminating salmon spawing streams completely. There will never be any comparison between the damage a salmon farm COULD do with what has already taken place. There is no denying that.

Well, according to activists this damage you talk about is already going on; however, they were not able to demonstrate that salmon farms are the environmental Armageddon during the inquiry.  If there can "never be any comparison" then which local runs have been decimated by salmon farms?  If you read the Cohen Final Report you will notice that Justice Cohen put all these factors that can potentially impact Fraser Sockeye into perspective, but apparently you have crystal ball that says that damage from a salmon farm will do more damage than what other factors have done or will do.

Have you ever taken a trip to other areas of the Fraser Watershed outside of the Lower Mainland?  I have.  It is a regular part of my job.  Try comparing the present day shorelines of Shuswap and Mara lakes to what they looked like 30 or 40 years ago and see how fish habitat in many area is now replaced by sandy beaches and grounding docks.  Check out what past exploitation rates were like for commercial fisheries (mixed stock) in this province.  What was the return of Upper Adams Sockeye like in 2004 after years of rebuilding?  Lastly, you also have to consider that fish species like Fraser Sockeye can have a very complex life history.  Potential marine impacts (i.e. aquaculture) are just one factor within that life history that includes many other areas for potential mortality.  Environmental conditions in the Fraser, as discussed by Scott Hinch during the inquiry, were clearly lost upon you as you read the report. 
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banx

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #520 on: November 24, 2013, 09:57:11 AM »

Well, according to activists this damage you talk about is already going on; however, they were not able to demonstrate that salmon farms are the environmental Armageddon during the inquiry.  If there can "never be any comparison" then which local runs have been decimated by salmon farms?  If you read the Cohen Final Report you will notice that Justice Cohen put all these factors that can potentially impact Fraser Sockeye into perspective, but apparently you have crystal ball that says that damage from a salmon farm will do more damage than what other factors have done or will do.

Have you ever taken a trip to other areas of the Fraser Watershed outside of the Lower Mainland?  I have.  It is a regular part of my job.  Try comparing the present day shorelines of Shuswap and Mara lakes to what they looked like 30 or 40 years ago and see how fish habitat in many area is now replaced by sandy beaches and grounding docks.  Check out what past exploitation rates were like for commercial fisheries (mixed stock) in this province.  What was the return of Upper Adams Sockeye like in 2004 after years of rebuilding?  Lastly, you also have to consider that fish species like Fraser Sockeye can have a very complex life history.  Potential marine impacts (i.e. aquaculture) are just one factor within that life history that includes many other areas for potential mortality.  Environmental conditions in the Fraser, as discussed by Scott Hinch during the inquiry, were clearly lost upon you as you read the report. 


thats not what I'm saying at all. I thought it made perfect sense.  I am saying that the damage done by other industries is worse than anything a farm could do..... that the worst a farm could do, would be relatively small compared to another industry.

Its also logistically easier in my eyes to remove a fish pen, as compared to a shipping port.

I'm not from the lower mainland and have been lucky, and old enough to see most of the province, repeatedly.  I've seen systems bounce back and others continue to suffer.  What I am seeing, is a push to move back to better days and healthier systems.

I'm pretty sure every small flow in the lower mainland has suffered from industry and urban development. Almost every one of them has a hatchery.
See to try and make my point yet again, the farms can be taken out of the water. to me that makes sense.

I also have never spoken about sockeye in particular. I have also not said farms are the sole reason for salmon stock problems.  Just the potential of virus mutation between atlantics and pacifics and what the potential consequences of having farms dropping crap and drugs into currents.
 in PRISTINE oceans.... with your long winded posts it's suprising your not even reading what I'm typing.

The information regarding viruses was contradictory and needed a lot of reading. If other parts of the world are having issues and culls, it's always a possibility that it can happen here.  Regardless of having the highest standards.
 
I read an article that I think was turned into a documentary about the sockeye return of 2011 and it being the result of a volcanic eruption in alaska feeding all the zooplankton.  So ya, I agree, things go in cycles.

None of that information I read was lost on me. You can't see the forest through the trees.
Open pens don't need to be a 'smoking gun' to be a problem.  Part of an old job I had was investigating accidents in the workplace.  If a risk could be eliminated through engineering, it's what was always done.

 
....  I do not really care if BC fish farmers decide to go close containment.

There is no point continuing this conversation.


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Novabonker

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #521 on: November 24, 2013, 06:53:48 PM »

I just corrected you on another thread.  You are so welcome.

Oh thank you, grand Master of semantics and $50 words. You see, I'm just another ignorant redneck, not worthy of sharing the world's air with you.( Sarcasm before your knickers get all knotted up) ;)
 Um, my parents were poor fishing folks of the maritime variety. As soon as I was old enough, I was out working to help support our rather modest existence. There wasn't any money for school beyond what basics I had by grade 9 - then it was out to work, either on a family boat or at a fish plant. In my generation and where I came from, there might have been a half dozen who's parents could afford to send their children off to higher learning institutions. I'm happy your family had the resources to do that for you. Smug commentary aside, I think while you may indeed be quite intelligent, it's too bad you need to constantly talk down to people who don't espouse your point of view - yes, before you say it, I do as well, but mostly with  farmfisherbawb who's posts are all ridiculously self serving industry propaganda links. Carry on!
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #522 on: November 26, 2013, 10:39:34 PM »


thats not what I'm saying at all. I thought it made perfect sense.  I am saying that the damage done by other industries is worse than anything a farm could do..... that the worst a farm could do, would be relatively small compared to another industry.

I read what you say again and I see what you were trying to say.  My apologies this time.

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I'm not from the lower mainland and have been lucky, and old enough to see most of the province, repeatedly.  I've seen systems bounce back and others continue to suffer.  What I am seeing, is a push to move back to better days and healthier systems.

You are right...There is a push to move back to better days and healthier systems.  Now if we can rid ourselves of Harper and get back to a Fisheries Act that actually does what it is supposed that would be even better.

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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #523 on: November 26, 2013, 11:10:31 PM »

Oh thank you, grand Master of semantics and $50 words. You see, I'm just another ignorant redneck, not worthy of sharing the world's air with you.( Sarcasm before your knickers get all knotted up) ;)
 Um, my parents were poor fishing folks of the maritime variety. As soon as I was old enough, I was out working to help support our rather modest existence. There wasn't any money for school beyond what basics I had by grade 9 - then it was out to work, either on a family boat or at a fish plant. In my generation and where I came from, there might have been a half dozen who's parents could afford to send their children off to higher learning institutions. I'm happy your family had the resources to do that for you. Smug commentary aside, I think while you may indeed be quite intelligent, it's too bad you need to constantly talk down to people who don't espouse your point of view - yes, before you say it, I do as well, but mostly with  farmfisherbawb who's posts are all ridiculously self serving industry propaganda links. Carry on!

Hmmm....so it is ok for you to be "correcting" people, but if someone notices something you posted that is not correct you believe they are talking down to you.  Sounds fair...lol.  Seems like you were talking down to people like me in the following statement: 

Nope - as long as the feedlotters spread bovine droppings, I'll be there to correct them.

But that's ok....because you are just a poor, disadvantaged Maritimer who is constantly picked on by people like me.  That is an excuse for the comments you make?  I should really be cutting you some slack?  Really??  Let me tell you this...You don't know me or what I did to get to where I am at today so be careful of about what you assume.



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« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 11:12:27 PM by shuswapsteve »
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Novabonker

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #524 on: November 28, 2013, 06:25:34 AM »

Hmmm....so it is ok for you to be "correcting" people, but if someone notices something you posted that is not correct you believe they are talking down to you.  Sounds fair...lol.  Seems like you were talking down to people like me in the following statement: 

Nope - as long as the feedlotters spread bovine droppings, I'll be there to correct them.

But that's ok....because you are just a poor, disadvantaged Maritimer who is constantly picked on by people like me.  That is an excuse for the comments you make?  I should really be cutting you some slack?  Really??  Let me tell you this...You don't know me or what I did to get to where I am at today so be careful of about what you assume.



.

So - ya wanna go grab a coffee sometime? I'll buy. You can even have the grande  ;D I'm pretty open about who and what I am, you - not so much.
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