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Author Topic: Get your facts straight?  (Read 1308847 times)

shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1020 on: September 30, 2014, 10:13:34 PM »

Magnitude and Trends in Abundance of Hatchery and Wild Pink Salmon, Chum Salmon, and Sockeye Salmon in the North Pacific Ocean

http://afs.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1577/C09-054.1



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banx

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1021 on: October 01, 2014, 10:14:33 AM »

  I guess I can agree with you on most of what you say Banx. But you must also agree that, as big as the sport fishing industry is, we sport fishers kill a lot of wild and hatchery salmon for profit that would have put nutrients in the rivers and streams, fed the bears, eagles and trees, where I can not find proof of salmon farmers killing them. Just myths, fables, hearsay and lies. :) Btw, I know a few people in the sport fishing industry and they have second winter jobs because the industry is seasonal and does not sustain a year around income. Some head south and spend their hard earned money out of Canada and in a warmer climate. Seems to me that salmon farming is year around work in Canada and most of all in coastal communities that need and do benefit from it. 
  Now I have to ask you Banx, just why have we been pointing our fingers at salmon farmers when we have no direct Industrial competition with them? Also the same feed companies supply both hatcheries and farms giving them year around employment. Also I do not hear complaints from sport fishers about what is in the hatchery feed or the chemicals used to keep the smolts healthy that are released into the wild that we catch and eat. It looks like we have been misled with a double standard.

I'm sure there are farmers who sport fish, just like there are likely cattle ranchers who shoot moose and deer.

someones employment is a choice they make. there are also plenty of seasonal workers in other capacities. also, to say that steady employment is a justification for having a farm in an open ocean is ludicrous at best.

regarding feed, yes I feel your correct on a lot of it. But I'm sure, and this is only opinion but a wild or hatchery fish will look and taste better than its farmed counterpart.  Just like cattle, pork, chicken etc. what they eat has a huge affect on flavour.  having eaten pellets from birth to death it probably lacks the umani that a salmon would chasing down its prey in the ocean.

in the 8647 pages on this thread I have never blamed the farms for the demise of wild salmon. there are way worse things out there. way worse. But that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to the practice.  There has to be a better way.  There HAS to be.

for me there are serious red flags in the practice of having a pen in the ocean.  There are also serious unknowns that could have lasting implications.  It's very unlikely that some sort of virus or pathogen can transfer from fish to humans.  But there is a very strong possibility that there could be mutation and transfer to other species in the oceans.

swine flu, mad cow disease, avian flu, these are things that farmers never anticipated. to say that things like that could not happen on a salmon farm is living on a prayer for sure.  We have been domesticating animals for centuries, land based ones, and other than the ancient chinese no other culture was doing any form of aquaculture.  In the short time frame (relatively) that these types of farms have been in operation there have been serious serious problems.

and saying oh its BC were the best at it, nothing is going to happen.....  let me remind you that these farms are not infallible, they are not god. you can not predict the future or insure the ocean. 


Magnitude and Trends in Abundance of Hatchery and Wild Pink Salmon, Chum Salmon, and Sockeye Salmon in the North Pacific Ocean

http://afs.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1577/C09-054.1

thanks for the link.  I did come across a selfie you took steve.  I had to save it.





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troutbreath

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1022 on: October 01, 2014, 04:59:20 PM »

Alaskan salmon farm (opps...."ranching" or "salmon enhancement programs") facilities utilize several chemicals and antibiotics to treat illness. They also have to deal with sea lice. Ranched fish are also fed fish pellets, are vaccinated and leave "poop" on the ocean floor.

Your making it sound like freighters are out in the ocean feeding the ranched salmon to match the amount of feed that net pens are using.  ::)  Wow.

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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1023 on: October 01, 2014, 05:20:12 PM »

Your making it sound like freighters are out in the ocean feeding the ranched salmon to match the amount of feed that net pens are using.  ::)  Wow.
You just may be right TB. :)

"Ocean-ranched fish are hatched and reared in fresh water and then raised in ocean-based net pens where they are fed and protected from predation to gain size and strength before being released into the wild."
http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/01/17/alaskan-ocean-ranching-damages-wild-salmon-fishery-b-c-conservation-groups-say/
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troutbreath

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« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 06:02:08 PM by troutbreath »
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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1025 on: October 01, 2014, 06:43:31 PM »

That is because they call it ranching, not farming. They still keep the salmon in open net pens for up to 12 months. That would mean to me that those net pens would not be empty for very long. Nice try though TB. :)

http://alaskasalmonranching.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/report.pdf
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 06:53:47 PM by Fisherbob »
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rjs

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1026 on: October 01, 2014, 07:05:18 PM »

looks like more government tax payer bail out $$$ on the way  >:(


http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2014/09/30/algae-kills-280k-farmed-fish
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 11:21:11 PM by rjs »
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troutbreath

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1027 on: October 01, 2014, 07:59:37 PM »

That is because they call it ranching, not farming. They still keep the salmon in open net pens for up to 12 months. That would mean to me that those net pens would not be empty for very long. Nice try though TB. :)

http://alaskasalmonranching.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/report.pdf

More unauthorized content from your favorite site. Not even worth posting Bawb.

Let's face it Alaska banned salmon farming so that alone is enough for you and the dirty fish gang to target them (bully them in your other posters words).

Get the mudshark farm going Bawb and no one's going to complain. You could feed them all the dead fish from Marine Harvests latest killoff. A win win if I ever saw one.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1028 on: October 01, 2014, 10:36:59 PM »

Your making it sound like freighters are out in the ocean feeding the ranched salmon to match the amount of feed that net pens are using.  ::)  Wow.

Well, you made the comparison to freighters - not me.  I also never mentioned anything about "matching" the amount of feed.  I notice that you don't like the inconvenient facts about salmon ranching in Alaska and have instead decided to shoot the messenger rather than critique the content.  Interesting.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1029 on: October 01, 2014, 10:47:35 PM »

I am right about him making it sound like that, but fact is:

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/fishing/PDFs/hatcheries/2013_ak_hatcheries.pdf

http://www.wildakgirl.com/2013/04/why-did-alaskan-ban-fish-farms.html

By posting these what is the point you are trying to make?  As for Sara Pozonsky, she is passionate about her beliefs, but I don't believe she really understands what is going on in her own backyard. She obviously has not considered the study that I just posted previously or the concerns from folks in her own camp like Watershed Watch Salmon Society with regards to salmon ranching in Alaska or even in production from Japan or Russia.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1030 on: October 01, 2014, 11:52:45 PM »

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2014/09/30/algae-kills-280k-farmed-fish

These fish kills in BC caused by this algae are not uncommon if you look at the literature.  Wild salmon can be impacted but are more able to avoid the bloom; whereas, farmed salmon are more restricted in a net pen and have a more difficult time avoiding it. BC fish farms are situated to hopefully avoid these toxic blooms but they do happen.

Alex Morton, an independent biologist, said climate change could trigger the blooms. But she also pointed to “industrial feedlot waste” from the farms themselves that attracts the algae.

“Wild fish in theory can go deeper (the bloom sticks to surface waters) but it’s hard to figure out what happens to wild fish,” she said.


Heterosigma akashiwo is found along the Pacific coast from Mexico to the northern BC coast. It was proposed as one of the factors in the decline of Fraser Sockeye at the Cohen Commission, but it's contribution to the overall decline is still relatively uncertain. It is true that it can kill wild fish; however, whether the impact is that great as to be a significant cause in the decline is not a slam dunk because wild fish have the ability to avoid these blooms. When it hits farmed fish here it doesn't appear to be a complete kill so in my opinion it can add to mortality like the other factors mentioned during the inquiry, but it's likely not the big smoking gun.

I do agree with Morton that it's hard to figure out what happens to the wild fish in this circumstance. It is possible that many wild morts that fall victim to toxic algae will sink to the bottom and be undetected unless water temperatures encourage them to come to the surface.  This is similar to farmed salmon found dead at the bottom of net pens.  However, when you factor in scavengers in the water column (benthic and pelagic); tides and ocean currents impacting the distribution of carcasses; and the fact that carcasses can remain on the bottom for indeterminate amount of time (making detection even more difficult) the availability of carcasses to make for a meaningful study into this could be a difficult task.

As for fish farms attracting these blooms there is little evidence to support that theory. As Ian Roberts notes, these blooms happen in areas without fish farms and the nutrient load may not be as significant as Morton believes. I posted this study from the Puget Sound before: http://www.whoi.edu/fileserver.do?id=39383&pt=2&p=29109
 
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1031 on: October 02, 2014, 12:11:46 AM »

Morton followers ignorant of toxic algae off our coast:

https://www.facebook.com/AlexandraMortonSalmonBiologist

Typical Morton....Promote ignorance by posting something inflammatory with little or no context and factual information.

Here is a really good one....

Thank God this got blocked in Washington state. The zoologists I was working with were against it totally

LOL...Yep...no fish farms in Washington State...lol. These toxic blooms happen in Washington State also.  Donkey.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 12:15:41 AM by shuswapsteve »
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1032 on: October 02, 2014, 12:14:37 AM »

Good one, banx.  I laughed for awhile.  That was funny and needed after a difficult past couple of days.
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salmonrook

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1033 on: October 02, 2014, 01:25:48 AM »

I like the fact that Alaska recognized that fish farms were harming their environment and banned them. Instead shifting to Salmon ranching which  only keeps  the fish for 12 months , after that they can be regarded as wild as they do most of there growth on natural food in the ocean. It is a more natural way of growing fish rather than penning them up and feeding them pellets for there whole life .At least they(State of Alaska) are  not turning a blind eye to all of this , which conveniently for our feds seems to happen with the fish farms here in bc.
   I would bet that the majority of people here know about fish farms and are aware of their folly, only through individuals and organizations like Seachoice (education) are people going to make informed decisions .
 I would also wager that  majority of people do not know the extent of the fish farming and its effects on our environment and the govt involvement supporting it financially .If they did they would be shocked.Its up to all of us to keep the info flowing instead of trying to deflect,misinform and hide any kind problems affecting our environment.
 As for the latest fish kill , this was an usually warm year and we did see several instances of algae blooms in waters around the bc coast.As mentioned the wild fish can avoid these blooms while the penned ones cannot.
 The unfortunate part is the feds may bail them out when in fact most of the production and profits from this company,Marine harvest will not stay in Canada.
  I applaud Sara Pozonsky for supporting the local industry of fishermen and there natural historic  methods.
 Im sure she has a quality product. She may even be buying ranched salmon , that have returning after several years of ocean growth and survival .
 
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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #1034 on: October 02, 2014, 07:18:26 AM »

One or the other? Or both? At least we can keep an eye on both. I have noticed over the years that I am not catching the size of salmon I use to. Too many fish on the range?

http://www.cbbulletin.com/399883.aspx

Looks like a lot of money heads home with seasonal workers in Alaska.
http://www.adn.com/article/feds-correct-ban-alaska-fish-processing-jobs-j-1-visa-program

The great "wild" bi-catch scam. Over loading the range and cutting the grass also.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/07/nation/na-alaska-fishing7
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 08:08:17 AM by Fisherbob »
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