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Author Topic: Get your facts straight?  (Read 1309275 times)

shuswapsteve

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #465 on: October 30, 2013, 11:46:45 PM »

I also haven't manufactured any facts....... and If ISA was not found on any farms, why would Dr.Miller say she wasn't able to attain any samples?  were some provided after the report was commissioned?

Kudoa making Atlantic Salmon sick isn't manufacturing facts?  Information on Kudoa is not hard to find.  Google it.  You don’t have to go to a “public relations site” to find out about it.  It does not get fish sick.  The parasite causes post-mortem softening of the flesh.  ISA is apparently present here, but isn't that a manufactured fact if you have provided no evidence of its presence?  Read Volume 2 and it will tell you what the experts said and didn’t say about ISA.

I am not saying that you should not be concerned, but you should be knowledgeable about salmon farming if you are going to make the claims you are making.  Many of the critics of the BC fish farm industry on this forum make a lot of noise about fish farming, but have a very limited understanding of what is involved.  In my opinion, if someone is going to be against something like this then they should take the time to know something about it and not rely on false perceptions.  Afterwards, they do not have to agree with it, but at least they are informed.

As for Dr. Miller not being able to attain any samples there is more to that story than what farm critics will say (that is usually the case).  Here is what the BC Salmon Farmers Association had to say:

http://www.salmonfarmers.org/sites/default/files/sample_availability.pdf

Again, you should be aware that farmed salmon here have been more regularly tested than wild salmon for exotic viruses like ISAv.  Again, if ISA was on BC fish farms then there would be substantial mortality – similar to what critics say happened in Chile.  Again, if ISAv is detected, salmon farms in Canada are legally obligated to report it – just like it has been on the east coast of Canada.  The problem is that most of the research on salmonid diseases has been directed towards pathogens that have impacted captive fish either in government fish hatcheries or salmon farms.  As I eluded to before, Genome BC is going to be partnering with DFO (includes Dr. Miller) and the Pacific Salmon Foundation in a comprehensive study to collect the largest number of samples from wild and ocean-raised salmon in order to analyze the genomes of microbes as well as their presence and absence.  In July this year, BC Salmon Farmers signed a transfer agreement to assist in this study.  This is in stark contrast to the crude and unscientific virus surveillance program conducted by Ms. Morton.

http://www.genomebc.ca/index.php?cID=1235
http://www.salmonfarmers.org/bc-salmon-farmers-sign-transfer-agreement-genome-bc-study
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banx

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #466 on: October 31, 2013, 07:04:47 AM »

steve you are completely right. I was very wrong on the kudoa.  I should have only included issues that farmed atlantics have while they are still alive.  The fact that kuduo makes the meat inedible should have been excluded.  :-[   I did read up on it before I posted it.  and it 'was' an issue.

my apologies.

its nice to know though that was the only manufactured fact.  The push you gave me to become informed has not only cemented my feelings regarding pens.  It's opened my eyes to the disgusting practice even further.

The past denials through communication sites regarding sea lice.  The actual TONNAGE of drugs dropped into our ocean as well as a complete ignorance towards the future and the potential consequences of open net farming.  The lack of farms to move on recommendations and the amount of effort put forth to 'educate' the public.... and the visual impact of having a farm sitting in one of the most beautiful parts of the world. 

What truly boggles my mind, is that someone who appears to be as intelligent as you can support such a....... crime.

if you really were as informed as you claim to be, you would know that the "need for more protein for the human population" is a farce.  That a redistribution of wealth, rather, a reduction in how much food we waste would be better for the human population than putting more of these pens in pristine oceans.

The incredible amount of fish meal used to feed farmed salmon is one that needs to be eliminated completely for this to be truly sustainable...

That the incredible effort put forth, the "strictest regulations in the world" and the majority of the public opposing the practice is not enough of a deterrant to take these pens out of the ocean.

your doing your best to justify rape. and expect the vast vast majority of the population to feel the same way.  and their negative feelings towards the practice will ONLY increase as they become more informed.



edit: I did read volume 2. Isa is found in pacific salmon.  and if ISA gets atlantics sick, errrr actually it kills them.  wouldn't you want to remove your investment from that environment?  thats what a smart person would do.  :-\

why are whitsle blowers condemned?

www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/fishing/docs/ISA_Fact_Sheet.pdf‎
At the end of October, a report emerged showing that infectious salmon anemia (ISA) had been discovered in a sample of wild salmon taken from Rivers Inlet. Since that time, the Cohen Commission, which is studying the decline of wild salmon, has reconvened. Also, a secondary analysis that reversed the first ISA findings, called the sample degraded. A few days later, several news outlets reported that Canada covered up studies going back to 2002 that found 117 wild salmon had the the ISA virus.
 http://bcrainforest.com/salmon-flu-variant-found-to-have-existed-in-pacific-salmon/

In the fall of 2011, ISAv was identified in several species of Pacific salmon in British Columbia.
http://deptwildsalmon.org/pathogens/isa/

Dr. Kibenge’s testimony states when he tested 48 salmon from the west coast he found two fish who, in the test had the virus, however, newer developments quote him as saying perhaps there is a western form of ISA.
http://tumblerridgenews.com/?p=10908

"Asymptomatic infectious salmon anaemia in juvenile Onchorhynchus species from the North West Pacific Ocean," says:

    Juvenile chinook (Onchorhynchus tshawytscha), chum (O. meta), coho (O. kisutch), pink (O. gorbuscha) and sockeye salmon (O. nerka) from the West Coast of Vancouver Island, Southeast Alaska, and the Bering Sea were surveyed between August 2002 and April 2003 for infectious salmon anemia virus (ISAV).

    Spawning sockeye from the Cultus Lake and Kokanee from Lois Lake, BC population was also sampled. Pooled or individual tissues were tested by RT-PCR, nucleotide sequencing and virus isolation. ISAV segment 8 was amplified from 34 of 121 (28%) chinook and 15 of 88 (17%) pink salmon caught off the West Coast Vancouver Island and southeast Alaska. ISAV segment 8 was also amplified from all 64 spawning sockeye and one cultured Asiatic salmon.

    The 220bp RT-PCR products were 94% to 98% homologous with Canadian ISAV isolates and 92% to 93% with European ISAV isolates. A product of 377 bp was obtained with Segment 7 ORF1 products were obtained in 5 chinook fish and the nucleotide sequence corresponded to ISAV segment 7 ORF2 products and was 95.7% identical to NBISA01 control isolate (Canadian isolate) and 99.7% identity to an ISAV isolate 810/9/99 from Norway.

    ISAV segments 2, 6 and full opening frame for segment 8 were not amplified nor was ISAV isolated onto SHK or CHSE and ASK-2 cells. These results lead us to conclude that an asymptomatic form of ISA occurs among some specifies of wild Pacific salmon in the north Pacific.
http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Environment/2011/11/30/infectious_salmon_anemia/

and our government says it isn't here....http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/fact-sheet/eng/1327198930863/1327199219511

"Has ISA been found in Canada?

Yes. ISA was first detected in the Atlantic area in 1996. It has been reported in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland.

ISA has not been found in the Pacific Ocean watershed or the Pacific Ocean off British Columbia."

Theres also several other sites I read from oregon and washington that says it doesn't exist.
hard to swallow when the ones with nothing to lose are the ones accused of lying.

"..........the Cohen Commission has exposed a systemic history of closeted secretiveness, hidden motives and contrived deception, all exposed since the initial October revelation that ISAv has been found in wild BC salmon. Dr. Sally Goldes, a 17-year fish health section head for the BC Environment Ministry, testified during the reconvened Cohen inquiry that “current Canada Fish Health Protection Rules do not provide a high level of regulatory security against the introduction of ISAv into British Columbia.” To underscore her concern, she noted, “If you really look closely at the regulations, from a scientific basis, there is not the high degree of protection that the government, and particularly DFO, states that they have.” In her opinion, the DFO and CFIA press conference that announced no ISAv in BC “was entirely premature.” In other words, ISAv could have leaked into BC waters from Atlantic egg sources used by salmon farms, and government agencies are systematically hiding that possibility.

Dr. Kristi Miller, one of the key DFO scientists in this process, took the initiative to do her own testing on wild and farmed salmon. She concluded that an ISA virus, or something that is 95 percent similar to the strain afflicting farmed Atlantic salmon in Norway, Scotland, Maritime Canada and Chile, is present in BC waters. And her review of DFO’s archival fish samples shows that markers for ISAv have been present in BC since 1986 – shortly after Atlantic salmon were first farmed here. A study by Dr. Molly Kibenge suggested that ISAv was here in 2004. Despite a UN convention that requires “evidence or suspicion” of ISAv to be reported, this was never done. Neither was evidence of ISAv reported to the initial phase of the Cohen Commission hearings."
http://commonsensecanadian.ca/shades-of-green-salmon-virus-cover-up-about-protecting-markets-not-fish/

also... were supposed to believe these people

"The second of three extra days of hearings at the Cohen Commission into disappearing Fraser River sockeye yielded more surprises – the biggest of which came in the form of a telling internal email strain between DFO and Canadian Food Inspection Agency staff. The emails were sent following a teleconference for media hosted by the two departments, aimed at quelling concerns over the recent discovery of Infectious Salmon Anemia virus in wild BC salmon.

In a message dated November 9, 2011, Joseph Beres, an inspection manager at the CFIA, wrote to colleague Dr. Con Kiley and other senior DFO and CFIA staff who had appeared on the conference call:

Con,

It is clear that we are turning the PR tide to our favour – and this is because of the very successful performance of our spokes[people] at the Tech Briefing yesterday – you, Stephen, Peter and Paul were a terrific team, indeed. Congratulations! One battle is won, now we have to nail the surveillance piece, and we will win the war also.

Cheers, Joe."

this is a very dangerous game of he said she said.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 09:44:56 AM by banx »
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Novabonker

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #467 on: November 01, 2013, 05:54:15 AM »

http://thetyee.ca/News/2013/10/31/Cohen-Report-One-Year/


On Oct. 31, 2012, Mr. Justice Bruce Cohen issued his long-awaited report on the disastrous Fraser sockeye run of 2009. It runs to three extensive volumes, including a 70-page chapter with 75 carefully argued recommendations.

British Columbian advocates for wild and farmed salmon had a lot riding on Cohen's findings. They had been feuding for years about the impact, if any, of Atlantic salmon farms on the wild Pacific fish -- especially the spread of diseases and parasitic sea lice from the farm pens to the migrating salmon on their way out to sea, and again on their return to spawn.

All sides expressed satisfaction with the report. Cohen had not found the farms responsible, but neither did he entirely approve of maintaining them on sockeye migration routes. He called for a moratorium on establishing new farms in the Discovery Islands, and said all farms in that region should be banned after 2020 unless the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) could prove a minimal risk of serious harm to wild sockeye.

In the past year the controversy has continued; but what's been done about the recommendations? The Tyee asked a number of stakeholders for their thoughts on the impact of the report.

In his reply, Mr. Justice Cohen himself said he was "not able to offer any views on the impact of the report on government policy, nor am I able to offer any views on the government's response, or lack thereof, to the commission's recommendations."

"I have not discussed the report or its recommendations with policymakers, although myself and commission senior counsel, together or individually, have had an opportunity since the report was released to make presentations to some interested non-governmental groups which comprised of an overview of the content of the report and its recommendations," he added.

Others have been less reticent. On the website of the David Suzuki Foundation, Suzuki posted some thoughts on Oct. 24:

"With optimism that the federal government was taking the decline of wild salmon seriously, this independent and thorough review created a blueprint for action. What had become a contentious and polarizing issue had a direction forward.

"That clear direction, however, has been followed with near silence and little effort from the government. Although politicians say they're reviewing the report and taking actions 'consistent with the recommendations', the few steps they have taken, such as providing grants for research projects, miss the mark and don't address the significant issues and opportunities raised by Justice Cohen.

"A year has passed, the testimony is in, the evidence heard and $26 million spent. It's time for action to rebuild wild Pacific salmon runs, so this iconic fish can be shared and enjoyed for generations to come. The fate of wild salmon is too important to be left to languish in government offices. We can't go on setting up inquiries to review problems and then ignore their recommendations."

After the release of the report last year, the B.C. Salmon Farmer's Association issued a news release supporting Cohen's findings, and followed up in March 2013 with another one approving of the B.C. government's response to the report.

That response, according to a Ministry of Agriculture spokesperson, includes the government's March 2013 announcement that it would not issue any new tenure agreements for net-pen salmon farms in the Discovery Islands until Sept. 30, 2010.

In addition, the government is currently seeking public opinion for new legislation that will replace the Water Act, the spokesperson said. Cohen's report urged the province to "resolve differences" over interpretation of certain parts of the old Act.

"The B.C. government is committed to the socially and ecologically responsible management of B.C. fisheries, including an environmentally and economically sustainable aquaculture industry for the benefit of all British Columbians," the spokesperson said.

Advocates waiting on 'concise' response

Responding to a Tyee inquiry by email, the Salmon Farmer's Association director Mary Ellen Walling said she was happy to support the government's decision to accept no further applications for farm sites in the Discovery Islands, which crowd the northern end of Georgia Strait and force migrating salmon into a few narrow channels before reaching the sea.

According to a recent news release from the association, salmon farmers are hosting a series of workshops to identify possible risks to wild salmon, and are monitoring water temperatures -- "the issue Commissioner Cohen deemed 'the elephant in the room' during the release of his report," it read.

Will Soltau, sustainable fisheries and salmon farming campaign manager for the Living Oceans Society, said that the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans "has still not produced a concise response since the report was released, making it hard to judge the impact on management."

"I can point to only one recommendation that has been adopted in a timely manner -- the publication of an approved Integrated Salmon Fisheries Management Plan for 2013. To my knowledge, DFO has no implemented any other recommendations and they have missed all of the report's deadlines to date," he said.

DFO did not respond to a Tyee query by publication time. The last mention of Cohen on the department's website was a news release about Fisheries Minister Gail Shea tabling the report on Oct. 31, 2012.

'It just requires government to lead the way'

"Cohen pointed to a number of threats in his report and said he could not find a single smoking gun. In that sense he didn't change the debate over the fate of wild salmon," Living Oceans' Soltau said.

"He did, however, clearly identify a number of knowledge gaps needing to be addressed. The report is a template that should have significant impact on the fate of wild salmon. The template is there. Now, it just requires government to lead the way and take some action."

Soltau added that Living Oceans has held meetings with government officials, especially to discuss Shelter Bay and Marsh Bay, north of Port Hardy, as problems:

"Evidence presented during the Cohen Inquiry shows how these two salmon farms are in the path of the Cultus Lake sockeye salmon -- a Fraser River stock recommended for listing under the Species at Risk Act by COSEWIC. We reminded DFO about this evidence and yet they approved significant production increases, refusing to share with us the reasons for their decision. We were told to file an Access to Information request. We did and are still waiting for a response to our request."

Biologist Alexandra Morton called the Cohen Commission "a good long look behind the iron curtain of government protection of the salmon farming industry."

"I learned there is no mechanism without DFO to protect wild salmon," she said. "I also learned that there are many wonderful people in DFO who are trying to protect wild salmon, but basically they are out-numbered and out-gunned."

She quoted Cohen: "I therefore conclude that the potential harm posed to Fraser River sockeye from salmon farms is serious or irreversible."

Morton pointed out that 11 of Cohen's recommendations were intended to protect wild sockeye from the effects of salmon farms. She also mentioned a March 13, 2013 deadline Cohen had set for DFO to revise its criteria for siting new farms -- a deadline she said was ignored.

In Morton's interpretation, "Cohen is saying get the salmon farms out of the place the Fraser sockeye come into closest contact with Atlantic salmon -- unless DFO can prove the Atlantic salmon are having only minimal risk."

Discussing her own research into viruses affecting wild salmon and prey species like herring, Morton said: "Government has not reacted to the Cohen Commission, but I have, and with the support of British Columbians I am racing a viral epidemic that government has given the viruses the head start."

Limited run this year

The Cohen Commission was sparked by the fate of one year's run of the Fraser River sockeye -- 2009. According to a Sept. 13 news release from the Pacific Salmon Commission, this year's run has not seen that run's descendants bounce back.

"The estimated total return of the Fraser River sockeye salmon this season is 3,732,000 fish, which is over double the very low Fraser sockeye return in the parent brood year (2009). However, the Fraser sockeye return this season is lower than the median (50p) pre-season forecast of 4,765,000 fish," it reads.

As a result, the sockeye fishery this fall has been limited to "ceremonial and subsistence" catches by First Nations; those fishing for pinks were told their efforts must include "non-retention of sockeye."

Given the continuing fragility of the Fraser sockeye, and the importance of the fish to the whole coastal ecosystem, many British Columbians are hoping for the federal government to act more decisively on Mr. Justice Cohen's recommendations well before his report's second anniversary arrives on Oct. 31, 2014. [Tyee]
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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #468 on: November 01, 2013, 09:02:29 AM »

"On Oct. 31, 2012, Justice Bruce Cohen released his 1200-page, 75-recommendation final report after three years of research, hearings and investigation into possible causes of the decline of Fraser River Sockeye. While he found no single cause, the commissioner made a long list of recommendations ranging from wild fisheries management, to improvements in hatchery operations. Eleven recommendations related to salmon aquaculture."

"While he found no single cause". 26M spent, and Doc Morton is still guessing. :)
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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #469 on: November 01, 2013, 06:29:58 PM »

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Novabonker

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #470 on: November 02, 2013, 07:35:04 AM »

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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #471 on: November 07, 2013, 08:46:10 AM »

Warning, obedient listeners will not like this. :)

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/11/06/david-suzuki-the-fallen-saint
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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #472 on: November 07, 2013, 08:58:50 AM »

26 mil.
"“I am also satisfied that marine conditions in both the Strait of Georgia and Queen Charlotte Sound in 2007 were likely to be the primary factors responsible for the poor returns in 2009. Abnormally high freshwater discharge, warmer-than-usual sea surface temperatures, strong winds, and lower-than-normal salinity may have resulted in abnormally low phytoplankton and nitrate concentrations that could have led to poor zooplankton (food for sockeye) production.” (Volume 3, page 59)
Wow! “Primary factors”, you say Judge? That sure sounds like the “smoking gun”!
And then this zinger:
“…data presented during this Inquiry did not show that salmon farms were having a significant negative impact on Fraser River sockeye…” (Volume 3, page 24).
Holy crap!"

http://www.alaskasalmonranching.com/blog/

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troutbreath

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #473 on: November 07, 2013, 03:35:45 PM »

Worried about your job at the fish farm Bob?
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Dave

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #474 on: November 07, 2013, 04:40:11 PM »

Worried about your job at the fish farm Bob?
Worried about your stand on this issue troutbreath?
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troutbreath

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #475 on: November 07, 2013, 06:59:25 PM »

Worried about your stand on this issue troutbreath?

More selected material from self interest enterprizers does not worry me. People gullible enough to embrace it does. The web site bob is getting his info from is probably done by "salmon farmers" who are against "salmon ranchers". Your type of people Dave (?) just feeding off each other about who's better. Great comic relief to me alright. Worry?
----------------------------------------
About us
The purpose of this blog is to educate the public about salmon culture in Alaska by:

■explaining what salmon ranching is.
■exposing marketing campaigns that make false claims like “salmon from Alaska is 100% wild“.
■making fair benefit/impact comparisons to other fish culture techniques around the world.
■breaking through the anti-fish culture smoke screen adopted by many Alaskan fisherman, marketers and journalists.
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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #476 on: November 08, 2013, 08:01:48 AM »

Worried about your job at the fish farm Bob?
Not at all TB, I am not a farmer. That is a typical question from the obedient listening crowd though. :)
Are you saying this quote is all made up TB? Oh I forgot, the obedient listeners are not allowed to answer questions.

" "“I am also satisfied that marine conditions in both the Strait of Georgia and Queen Charlotte Sound in 2007 were likely to be the primary factors responsible for the poor returns in 2009. Abnormally high freshwater discharge, warmer-than-usual sea surface temperatures, strong winds, and lower-than-normal salinity may have resulted in abnormally low phytoplankton and nitrate concentrations that could have led to poor zooplankton (food for sockeye) production.” (Volume 3, page 59)
Wow! “Primary factors”, you say Judge? That sure sounds like the “smoking gun”!
And then this zinger:
“…data presented during this Inquiry did not show that salmon farms were having a significant negative impact on Fraser River sockeye…” (Volume 3, page 24)."
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 08:10:26 AM by Fisherbob »
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troutbreath

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #477 on: November 08, 2013, 03:45:54 PM »

Your really clingon on that goofy website poop. Sure your not worried about the fish farming job bob.


“…data presented during this Inquiry did not show that salmon farms were having a significant negative impact on Fraser River sockeye…”

I don't know how you see that as a rock solid statement that the data may be accurate. But hey get it on a Tshirt and wear it to work at the fishfarm. :)
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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #478 on: November 08, 2013, 04:51:49 PM »


“…data presented during this Inquiry did not show that salmon farms were having a significant negative impact on Fraser River sockeye…”

Now you are seeing the big picture like a good obedient listener. :) i see you read volume 3 page 24. Good for you.
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Fisherbob

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Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #479 on: November 08, 2013, 04:57:24 PM »

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