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[Addicted To Steel]

Thank you Big Steel. I am not registered on FishBC, but I will check it out and try to get them some info, and get them up to speed. We need all the help we can get!!

Chris, thank you for your kind words, and wonderful job at the clean up. I really appreciate your help and advice with this gravel proposal.
The people I met at the clean up are truly special. Seeing people care for our environment this way was very uplifting. We see way too much bad in this world and we need to surround ourselves with good as often as possible. The attention Rodney and his sight has brought to the Vedder River Clean Up is so valuable.

Glad to have been involved!

[Addicted To Steel]

Not much of an update yet. My calls to the DFO and Min. of Energy and Mines were not returned today. However I did have a very positive conversation with a BCWF member who said they are completely behind this fight and will get a lot of helpful people and groups involved. They sure have a lot very powerful and influential contacts at their disposal.

I will keep everyone informed as things unfold.

ATS

[2:40]

Thanks for all the effort Addicted to Steel.

Ill support where I can and spread the word as well.

[Old Black Dog]

It has been determined that DFO most definately has not expressed support
for this propsal contrary to the comment in 3rd to last paragraph in News
Release.  One could most certainly question whether the other groups have
also expressed support.  This could perhaps be interpreted by the
Securities Commission as erroneous information. For your info the address
of the Securities Commission is:  PO Box 10142  Pacific Centre  1250 West
Georgia  Vancouver, B.C.  V7T 1L2

[Addicted To Steel]

Thank you very much 2:40 and Old Black Dog.

OBD, I will give the SC a call tomorrow to discuss this with them. I definately agree with your thoughts.


ATS

[fishman]

Here's a couple of thoughts regarding the Chehalis river and gravel that no one seems to be considering in the mass panic that seems to have started.

1. maybe the gravel plan is to do what they did on the Vedder to improve water flows and stop the upper part of the river from becoming shallower. The gravel pits down below have sure improved the water depth and flow in the rest of the river.  Anyone remember the damaged caused to the upper Vedder when the gravel slide occurred a few years back.

2.   Earlier addicted talks about summer water being so warm that its stresses the steelhead in the river. The cause being that the river is becoming shallower due to gravel naturally washing into the river.  Over the years I’ve seen this slowly build and its killing this river. 

In fact I heard that the regional district has had studies done that indicate the Chehalis is slowly dying due to the influx of gravel and silt during high water.
Maybe the gravel extraction plan will help  solve this problem

3. I read over on the BCfishingreport forum about the gravel being washed down causing problems for the Coho down below the Easter seal run, coho spawning and dying in back channels which later completely dry up killing the eggs and thus reducing stocks

oh and by the way I've fished the Chehalis with my family for over 18 years now, delivered many brood steelhead to the hatchery and if anyone could come up with a viable, environmentally sound method of stopping the gravel being dumped into this river then I’m all for it.

[Sterling C]

Fishman, a few corrections.....

1. maybe the gravel plan is to do what they did on the Vedder to improve water flows and stop the upper part of the river from becoming shallower. The gravel pits down below have sure improved the water depth and flow in the rest of the river.  Anyone remember the damaged caused to the upper Vedder when the gravel slide occurred a few years back.

The upper vedder was never being 'shallowed' out. The slide you are refering to was a clay slide not a gravel slide and it was repaired by the hard work of volunteer groups, not through gravel extraction in the lower river. Similarly, the upper Chehalis (river) is still in its untouched shape that it has always been in. As for removing gravel in the lower river to control floods, there are no solid facts on this actually working and it is a rather heated debate.

2.   Earlier addicted talks about summer water being so warm that its stresses the steelhead in the river. The cause being that the river is becoming shallower due to gravel naturally washing into the river.  Over the years I’ve seen this slowly build and its killing this river.

Summmer steelhead do not hold for long in the lower river. They usually shoot up the canyon as fast as possible so once more a shallower river is not an issue here. Over all the years prior to now the river has always flushed itself free of gravel without our help. Why should we start now, only difference right now is its currently in the process of changing courses and has consequently become braided. Still not an issue IMO.

Ok I lied, there is one other difference between our current and historical chehalis river. Much of the upper river has been logged causing surface runoff to penetrate the river at a much quicker rate. This, however, would give the river's water level much more of a sinusoidal pattern than historically. If anything, these large pushes of water would be more competent at pushing out excessive gravel than a more steady flow.

3. I read over on the BCfishingreport forum about the gravel being washed down causing problems for the Coho down below the Easter seal run, coho spawning and dying in back channels which later completely dry up killing the eggs and thus reducing stocks

I believe (someone correct me if I'm wonrg) that the vast majority of coho spawning occurs above the easter seal run. I have personally seen schools of coho in the hundreds sitting in the upper chehalis as well as large amounts of coho scattered about statlu creek.

The other key thing here is that in Mosquito's letter to stock holders that full out say that the gravel deposits they are specifically targetting are glacial till, not fluvial outwash. To explain it to everyone else with no background in earth and environmental sciences, what happend was 10,000 years ago the chehalis valley was covered by a large glacier. As this glacier slowly travelled down the valley its abbraisive nature caused it to break off bed rock and wear it down into smaller pieces ie gravel as it carried it down the valley. Eventaully, this gravel was deposited in very well sorted piles as glacial till. Eventually, the glacier melted away and these piles of till were covered by soil and vegetation and the chehalis river was born. Now, they want to mine out this till as it is piled very deep and it is very well sorted. The problem is that in order to do this they must dig large gravel pits within close proximity to the river. By doing this, any run off in the area will be silty and therefore choke the river with silt covering up potential spawning habitat similar to what happened on the coquitlam river.

Please don't think of this as a shot at you. We are all very concerned about this issue and wish the best for this precious river. It's just that we need to have all of our facts straight and can't have false information floating around.

[Sandy]

glacial till and outwash are different, outwash is usually sorted by meltwater ,often seen on steep gravel banks showing crossbedding of the stratas,
till is usually deposited  by the bulldozer type action of the glacier beneath its self ,as the glacier retreats the melt waters wash the till and sort the components which are then deposited depending on the combination of slope grades and quantity of water and weight of the material being transported ( natural sluice box).

the main question will be how close to the river will be considered safe.I doubt that unless It can be proven a gravel extraction operation/mine would be of unacceptable risk to the river, it will go ahead.The job in hand will to be prove that this operation will risk the river system to the appropriate agencies. making infactual statements will only waste valuable resources in litigation. remember the other side is probably as passionate about their cause ( making Bucks)       

[Addicted To Steel]

I contacted the securities commision today to give them the information about the news release letter and their(the mining company's) statement about the support they have received from the groups they list in the letter. I explained that some of the groups have denied giving this support to the mining company.

I was told by the woman I spoke to that they are very interested in investigating this.

Tomorrow I will be giving the SC my contacts, and I will also be asking for interviews from the other groups who have not gone on the record yet about the support statement.

Just so all of you know, I will not be debating the goods or bads of a gravel mine adjacent to a river on this thread. I have explained my position on this, and I will continue to fight this battle, as I know all of you who believe the same will do as well. Everybody is entitled to show their own concerns and opinions, that is the nature of a forum such as this.

However, I am choosing to report only my findings, and progress on this petition on this thread from this point on. If people choose to debate it on the thread than be my guest. I will not get involved that way.  I hope you all understand. I will save my "opinions, and beliefs" for the final presentation where they will be backed up by only facts, and examples from concerned groups and individuals.

ATS

[fishman]

Interesting corrections, unfortunately only half truths.

1.   Anyone who knows the upper vedder has seen the shallowing of some of the runs as part of the natural process.  Campground for example used to have a beautiful large deep pool that’s no longer there. As for the slide it was made of clay, silt and gravel not just clay. As for the gravel removal down below its already been established by experts that it is and has worked only the die hard no development at any cost environmentalists disagree.

2.   Winter steelhead hold and spawn in the lower rivers (we hook lots wild and hatchery every year right through to end of April in the backwoods) and they are in much bigger numbers than summer. As for the river flushing free the gravel, why then when I phoned the regional district did they talk of  major problems in the Chehalis, they said that they had a report recently done by experts who point to major problems? 
Its funny guess you haven’t walked the canyon very much and seen how the size and shape of the pools from Chehalis lake to Easter seal have changed over the past 15 years

The Fraser river by the way is having the same shallowing problems in an even bigger way. 

3.   There are way more Coho below the road bridge than above from what I’ve seen over the years.  I too see lots of dead coho this year in these braided channels and these go bone dry in the spring. I also find pools filled with tomatoes that have been there since September and they still chase blades by the way.

4.   I also read the press release from mosquito, it clearly states “property underlain by thick glacial outwash complex ..” Not glacial till. So my question is why the change in wording? I talked to a geologist friend of mine who also goes fishing, he says that the outwash are all washed clean of fines and clay and well sorted, while till contains all sorts of clay and fines. So is this the reason you tried to change the wording!!  Once we see the exact area of this gravel operation, I’ll take my friend fishing and we will check it out.

I too like to keep the facts straight and stop false information or half truths floating around, but what really bugs me is the amount of twisting and misleading information that is put out by radical environmental groups in order to create hysteria and fear amongst the uninformed public. So I myself will continue to investigate the true facts to see if this indeed is a problem or part of a solution designed to provide a balance between development and protecting a valuable river.

[Old Black Dog]

If there is any doubt, just follow the money.
Who is going to make money from this?

[Sterling C]

1.   Anyone who knows the upper vedder has seen the shallowing of some of the runs as part of the natural process.  Campground for example used to have a beautiful large deep pool that’s no longer there.

So lets just assume for a second that you are correct about the upper river shallowing from natural processes then why not accept it as such. How is gravel extraction in the lower river responsible for this?

As for the gravel removal down below its already been established by experts that it is and has worked only the die hard no development at any cost environmentalists disagree.

I was unaware of any conclusive findings regaurding this. Perhaps you would care to bring the study to my attention.

2.   Winter steelhead hold and spawn in the lower rivers (we hook lots wild and hatchery every year right through to end of April in the backwoods) and they are in much bigger numbers than summer.

Apples to oranges. ATS was originally concerned with the well being of summer run fish not winter runs. I'm curious, these winter runs that you catch in the lower river, are they spawners/ have you ever seen them on the beds. I'm asking because the only spawners/fish on the beds that I've ever came across were in the upper river.

As for the river flushing free the gravel, why then when I phoned the regional district did they talk of  major problems in the Chehalis, they said that they had a report recently done by experts who point to major problems?  

Major problem? How about the hatchery is drying while the native reserve is being flooded. Seems like a bit of a problem to me.

Its funny guess you haven’t walked the canyon very much and seen how the size and shape of the pools from Chehalis lake to Easter seal have changed over the past 15 years

Funny I was going to sugest the same thing. Unfortnatly I have only been fishing the canyon for four years so I cannot comment on the dynamics of the river in this area.

The Fraser river by the way is having the same shallowing problems in an even bigger way.

See rebuttal to point number 1.

3.   There are way more Coho below the road bridge than above from what I’ve seen over the years.  I too see lots of dead coho this year in these braided channels and these go bone dry in the spring. I also find pools filled with tomatoes that have been there since September and they still chase blades by the way.

Well thats just where you and me differ. As for there being dead coho in dried channels who is to say how they got there. Is it not possible that these dead fish spawned elsewhere and where washed down here later on.

Your statement about coho being trapped in pools since september is just plain silly. I'm assuming that you are refering to Purdey's or perhaps some of the other backwoods pools further down that channel. I too have seen schools of fish trapped in these pools. Assumably they moved up during high water and got stuck after the water dropped. However, what is to stop them from continuing on after the water has once more risen. This is souther B.C. we're talking about, its not as if it doesn't rain.

4.   I also read the press release from mosquito, it clearly states “property underlain by thick glacial outwash complex ..” Not glacial till. So my question is why the change in wording? I talked to a geologist friend of mine who also goes fishing, he says that the outwash are all washed clean of fines and clay and well sorted, while till contains all sorts of clay and fines. So is this the reason you tried to change the wording!!  Once we see the exact area of this gravel operation, I’ll take my friend fishing and we will check it out.

So you did read the press release. Well then at least no we can stop disucssing the idea of gravel removal in the lower river.
Ok you got me there. Outwash is in fact different than till. As you eluded to till is deposited directly by melting ice whereas outwash is distributed by meltwater streams. Two very similar entities, however, when I was writting my original responce to you I was thinking of something else. If you want to see the sight of the gravel operation just go for a drive, they pretty much tell you exactly where in the press release. Between Statlu and Boulder creeks, not exactly a huge area. FYI should you happen to go through with this and check out the area, on your way down the boulder creek road you will notice a rather large scree slope which should give you a pretty decent idea of what we're dealing with.

Are you accusing me of twisting the facts? I've been around here for a while and those who know me know that I am deeply concerned with this and know what I stand for.

So after all the dust has settled we must get back to the original issue you raised. Is the river slowly dying on account of the fact that no one is removing gravel deposits that are several hundreds yards from the actual river itself. Is it that this river that has maintained itself for thousands of years is suddenly in trouble and requires our help to restore its natural balance.

[Big Steel]

When did this become a debate!!  

[fishman]

Replies

1.   Got it wrong… rock gravel extraction in lower not responsible. Gravel extraction in lower river is supposedly designed to increase flows thereby moving the gravel from higher up the river into the lower section. I.E. remove gravel between Keith Wilson and railroad bridge, gravel above railroad bridge moves down to fill hole and so on as it works up the river. Also Coho seem to love the gravel pit areas, at least that’s where we catch lots. A friend of mine who works indirectly with fisheries says he as seen the studies and although it takes a long time it apparently is working.
2.   I’ve sat on the high banks on the Indian side of the river in the bushes where all the water is and watched steelhead creating nests in the gravel with their tales. Seen up to 20 sometimes in the pools. Take a walk down there in May when the river is closed.  That’s probably why you never see them spawn.   By the way they love worms and roe. We hook and release lots especially in April. We even seen the steelhead spawning on the gravel below the hatchery in May, but water has been too low for the past couple of years for that to happen.  Coho spawn through out this area of the river along with chum, pink and the odd sockeye. Oh and don’t forget the red springs. In fact we were catching lost of fresh coho in some of these channels when the water was high.
3.   hatchery drying reserve flooding yep that’s right, you’re getting the idea.
4.   as for the trapped Coho of course they are not the same fish from September. Just last week I saw a dozen dead Coho and two live brick red ones swimming in a 10 foot long by 5 foot wide by 2 foot deep pool surrounded by gravel. These channel get reused every time the water rises so there might be three or four spawning sessions during the run in these areas. As soon as the river drops these areas are as dry as a bone and the eggs die. Locally some small pools survive all year and you can find hatched fish in them but the majority of these areas dry right up. I’ll take some pictures next trip if any are left alive.

As for the rest given the amount of material that is currently being washed into the Chehalis river flushed through the canyon and out into the lower area. You’re darn right it’s a major problem. When the canyon gets scoured in the floods what do you think happens to all the eggs in the gravel that is being scoured and then refilled.

Biffchan it wasn’t you twisting the facts it was addicted… who called the stuff Till instead of outwash.  Which appears to me to be a deliberate attempt to mislead. Suggest you ask the regional district, natives about their concerns about the current status of the river.

[fishman]

bigsteel
whats wrong with a debate?
 Afraid of the truth!!!