Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Addicted To Steel on January 08, 2006, 08:40:06 PM
-
My friend Dean and I were on the Chehalis river this afternoon, and we ran in to a fellow who told us that him and a group of guys are intending on putting one or more gravel pits in the upper Chehalis canyon somewhere between 4 mile and possibly all the way up to Statlu creek.
He said that his friend bought the mineral rights to that area, and they have already been doing sampling of the area for gravel extraction.
He said that they already had a fisheries biologist with them last week to go over the area and ideas. He said it will be a large operation with settling ponds, buffer zones, etc..
Apparently they will be barging the gravel out through the Harrison by the Highway bridge!!!????
I didn't get the biologists last name, but he said his first name was Jim. I think I am familiar with who the Biologist is but I won't post any info If I am not sure.
Apparently they have also already been in contact with the Chehalis Native Reserve to discuss having Natives employed in the operation.
He said the Natives have tentatively agreed with the proposals as long as they ensure to use at least 30 to 40% native man power in the operation.
He also said they are discussing the idea of these same Gravel workers to re direct the water back to the hatchery side. I got the impression that this is part of the deal so that the Natives get a lock on the employment opportunities of the proposed gravel extraction operation.
I don't know about any of you guys, but this is the first I have heard of it, and I am in contact with the Hatchery workers, and some Gov. people at times.???
Unless this guy ( First name is Tom.) is jumping the gun, then I believe we have a lot to worry about!!!!!!!!
I said to him that the settling ponds have had no affect on fixing the silt problem on the Coquitlam river, and he said to me that that was because they put them in after the pit was in operation for quite some time, and it was too late to fix the problem. That did not make sense to me.
I asked him what the forcasted start time was for this. He said it should be under way in the next 5 years.
If anyone has some info on this please post it.
I will be contacting some people about this tomorrow, and I will post the info I find out.
If this is in fact in the works I will be contacting some people and organizations for help in fighting this gravel extraction operation, including the press. I can not see how this is going to be beneficial to our fish, wildlife and environment.
Looking forward to your comments and concerns.
ATS
-
If what you are saying is true then this is really bad news. The Chehalis has already had its fair share of problems over the last few years, we definitly do not need this. Although frankley, there seems to be some holes in the plans described. I have fished nearly the enitre area that you have described and with the excpetion of two area's that I can think of the entire canyon in boxed in by bedrock and I can hardly see where they would find any sort of gravel depostis large enough to extract. Perhaps they are planning on blasting the bed rock and then grinding it down? Also, when you say that they were planning on barging out the gravel did they mean they were going to truck it down to the Harrison and then barge it down the fraser or did they mean that they were planning on barging it down the Chehalis? As for the fisheries biologist, I have a feeling I may know who you're talking about.
-
Hi there Biffchan. The guy said the plan is to take gravel from the areas along the logging road up the canyon. He said that in some areas the gravel deposits are meters and meters deep. You are right, the canyon is full of bed rock right in the river, so they won't be doing it right at the river, but that still means they will be close enough to it to have a major impact on the river. (in my opinion).
And yes, their plan is to truck it down to the Harrison bridge where it will be barged out.
Hopefully I can find more out today, and post that info tonight.
It's odd to me that when there was a proposal to gravel mine the Pitt River, it was publicized and a lot of groups lobbied against it, but for some reason this proposal about the Chehalis has gone undetected and not publicized ( if it is true.)
ATS.
-
Does not surprise me, the operation on the Coquitlam is close to running out of hill to mine, that's why they wanted the Upper Pitt. They didn't get the Upper Pitt so it only makes sence that they would surface somewhere else. It's a matter of find a new site or go out of bus, and as for envionmental studies don't by their BULL. It's all about money and they will tell anyone whatever to get started, then it's all yesterdays news with all fines writen off as a cost of doing business.
-
Hi guys. Here's an update on some info I have gathered relating to this;
I spoke with the Freshwater Fisheries Society today. I asked if they knew of this. They told me they did not, but that they were concerned and that they would also do some investigating on their own. They gave me a lead as to whom the Biologist may be involved with this. They told me it was probably a private consulting firm.
I then called the Chehalis fish hatchery. Larry (the manager) was not available, but I spoke with Dana and asked him if he knew of this project. He said he did not, but he was also very concerned. He told me he would get Larry to contact me tomorrow.
I then called the Provincial Branch of Fisheries and spoke with Jim Roberts the fisheries Biologist. I asked him if he knew of this and if he did, could he offer any info on it.
Jim was very helpful. He said that the DFO had just recently contacted Jim's office to ask if they had any environmental concerns in regards to gravel extraction of this area (the upper Chehalis). He said that the Environment of Minerals and Mining (whatever their called now, the name keeps changing) contacted the DFO about this gravel extraction idea recently to ask the same question, so they (the DFO) in turn contacted the Provincial branch with the same questions.
I asked Jim for the contact info for the DFO personnel involved with this referral about the gravel project from the Environment of Minerals and Mining. He obliged with no hesitation. Jim also gave me a lead as to whom the Biologist consulting firm may be. He gave me the same name as the Freshwater Fisheries Society gave me.
I will be doing more follow up tomorrow. I will be trying to contact the DFO, the Environment of Minerals and Mining, the consulting firm, and others.
I will post info as I gather it.
So far this looks like it is definitely real and under way. PLEASE DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN!!
The plan to extract gravel from the upper Pitt River was fought and won by concerned groups and individuals. If we voice our concerns and get the right people involved to fight this we can win too. Our voices are just as important as those who want this to go through.
ATS.
-
Keep up the good work on this and I will help in any way possible to insure this is not going to affect mine and many others favourite river.
Cheers!
Glen
-
Thanks Glen, ( CohoOn ). That is great to hear! I'll keep you posted.
-
Back to the top please.
-
Thanx for the heads up and the research so far.We don't need this kind of threat to such a magnificent river.Maybe the Fraser Valley Regional District has some say in the issue of a gravel extraction permit? or has some info on plans?
-
Yes Spoonman, you're absolutely right. There are too many of these beautiful river systems with dams, gravel pits, logging, construction, and other environmental hazards on them. Why let this happen to another one? I have started the ball rolling now, but there is much more work to be done. Hopefully by the end of this week I will make some positive progress, and gain some helpful info.
If anyone knows some good groups or organizations who would be helpful with the fight please don't hesitate to post the useful info.
I will be contacting the Sportsfishing Defense alliance, Salmon, and Steelhead groups, the media, and others, but I'm sure there are lots of others as well.
-
you can check with the ministry of mines, ministries of enviroment provincial and fisheries federal has to approve of any removal of alluviam.I had not heard of any permits to extract. will see what I can find out. note there is a fair bit of bedrock up from the bridge canyon area but little above that mostly clay and gravel beds
-
might want to mention the Salish Sucker a species at risk according to the DFO. not a game fish but it's a species peculiar to the chehalis and tributries.
-
ATS, thank you for your ongoing effort of seeking the facts of this issue, and I hope you will able to obtain them and let us know. I will relay your concern to the Upper Fraser Sportfishing Advisory Committee, which will certainly seek for further answers before taking the next step. In the meantime, it would be wise for all to wait for all the facts are being presented before taking any action. :) Some representatives of the SFAC have also been meeting with the Chehalis First Nations at the ongoing Fraser Valley dialogue sessions, so it will be brought up at these meetings if needed.
Such a threat can put an end to a fishery that we often enjoy and take for granted. To ensure that the habitat, the fish and the fishery remained unharmed, it is a good idea for anglers to join a group that is represented at the SFAC meetings. It is an efficient way to make your concerns heard. One group that people wish to join is the Fraser Valley Salmon Society (http://www.fraservalleysalmonsociety.com/). Contact either Chris or Buckeye on the forum about becoming a member.
-
good point Rodney,
has anyone heard of a permit to extract being issued?
there are usually studies that now have to be done before those operations are allowed, unless it is grandfathered to a previous operation ie: logging road building/ maintinance .
-
Thank you Sandy and Rodney. I should be hearing back from DFO, and ENV. of Mines hopefully tomorrow. (Wednesday), as well as some other contacts.
I do not know if the permit to extract has been issued, but they definitely have the mineral rights so far( whatever that entitles them to- I'm not sure yet ). I will post the info as I get it.
ATS.
-
Thanks for the heads up, ATS. Once the steamroller gets going, it is very hard to stop it. So, the earlier we raise public concern, the better chances are that some good will come of it.
You may want to also put BC Wildlife Federation on your mailing list:
http://www.bcwf.bc.ca/about/contact.html
Please keep us updated on new info.
-
Thank you Nostro! The BCWF is at the top of the list for sure. I have worked with them in the past, so hopefully that will help too.
Unfortunately, I was on the rivers all day today so I was not around to get phone calls, but I did receive a couple of messages. I am working from home tomorrow so I will call them back to see what is up.
ATS.
-
Mineral rights do not give you entiltlement to remove gravel , mineral rights give you title to whats in the rock
Placer title allows you to process alluviam to extract minerals usually your not allowed to remove gravels from the claim area
.removing aluviam for use elsewhere is gravel mining and is a differant process again , technicaly 3 or more differant people/companies may own title to the same area .I'm a bit rusty with some of this title stuff but I don't think that things have changed al that much ,Goverment agents office MR should also be able to help you out .
-
OK guys, here's the info I gathered today after a lengthy conversation with Al Jonson from the DFO;
Approx. two weeks ago the DFO received a referral from the Ministry of Energy and Mines regarding an Exploration Permit for the Chehalis River area between Boulder Creek and Statlu creek. The Exploration Permit was granted and it encompasses an area of approx 900 hectares of land. This permit allows them to do test pits and seismic tests for now but their ultimate objective is to get an Extraction Permit. The proponent is claiming there will be a 200 meter buffer zone in between the gravel pits and the river if allowed to extract.
The publicly traded company which applied for this permit is called Mosquito Consolidated Gold Mines Limited. Traded under the initials MSQ on the TSX-V You can find them on line at http://www.infomine.com/index/companies/MOSQUITO_CONSOLIDATED_GOLD_MINES_LIMITED.html They are a Canadian company.
The DFO was contacted in order to get an idea of the plausibility of the proposals, and to give input regarding environmental concerns. The DFO also in turn contacted the Provincial Dept. of Fisheries for their input.
The companies proposal shows a series of pits, not just one, but several in the area listed above.
Another proposal of the proponent was to have a 15 km conveyor belt going from the main pit down to the Harrison River bridge used for transporting the gravel onto barges in order to save on trucking costs.
Al informed me that the company released a news release to their shareholders about this application, and that they wrote that the DFO was in favor of the application.
Al told me that the part of the news release about the DFO being in favor of it is untrue, and not supported by any of their communication.
Apparently they are not only interested in gravel extraction, but also in the gold in the area. There isn't much, but they have done sampling already and they figure on .5 of a gram per ton. Which equals approx $13/ton on top of the gravel value.
The gravel deposits are said to be very deep which will conflict with heavy concentrations of ground water. A main concern is that the disruption of the gravel deposits would have a negative impact on the ground water which is a contributor to the tributary creeks which feed the main stem of the Chehalis river with water during low water conditions.
( I have spent a large amount of time in the Chehalis canyon during the hot Summer months gathering broodstock for the hatchery. There were a couple of times the water was so low, and so warm that it was dangerous to catch steelhead because of the stress it would cause the fish. The fishes health is in jeopardy with water in this low,warm condition. If there was a disruption to this ground water supply (deep cold springs), it is my belief that the water in the main stem would be affected drastically. I am no expert, but Al supported this belief. Hopefully some experts will come to bat for those opposed to this operation with some helpfull ammunition.)
Al said that it is now that we should be gathering information and support to fight this application, because this company is serious about proceeding.
I will be relaying the information with several groups over the next two days, but once again-PLEASE HELP!!! This is the upper Pitt all over again guys.
I will continue to post info as I gather it, and news on any support I get from the groups I contact.
ATS.
-
Thanks for the update. I for one will support the fight against this in whatever way I can.
-
Hi Biffchan, that is great to hear!! I know you are an avid fishermen of the Chehalis. It is easy to get very attached to such a special river.
I sent you a PM a few minutes ago.
-
well done Ats,
might be a good idea to post this on the other sites,they will get the ball rolling quite quickly ,probably by applying to do a bulk sample under their exploration permits. ( speeds up the process)
try this link,
imho , I think they could be serious about this, not always is the case with junior mining companies.
IMHO we should do our home work, before we make statements that are not factual eventhough we think the are true.
try this. http://www.mosquitogold.com/new_images/gravel.pdf
-
Thanks again ATS for the in depth research. I have forwarded this thread to those on the Upper Fraser SFAC as well as some of the interest groups that use the Chehalis River freqently. Many will be/have been reading this and will take this up to the upcoming meetings. Some have emailed me back and they want to express their thanks to you for doing the initial legwork. :)
-
Thank you Sandy. That's the letter all right. I'll include that link for sure in my communication with others.
I think this company is quite serious about this venture unfortunately. :( (But what do I know ;) )
-
Thank you Rodney! I'm glad to hear others are concerned, as we all should be. It feels good to know there are good people out there!! Let's hope this gets stomped out quickly, although my gut tells me it will be long and tough.
Is there anyone on this forum from the Sportsfishing Defense Alliance?
I was in contact again with the FWFS this morning. I passed on all the info I had, and I believe there will be some help comming from there. I also left a message with the BCWF and tomorrow I will do some more phone calling for support from others.
-
anyone got a map showing the chehalis pools etc.? also might want to find a map showing the proposed area
-
This was brought up at the Fraser Valley Salmon Society meetring tonight and our SFAC rep's will be doing some work I believe on this.
I will send some info to The Chilliwack Progress and ask them to send to their sister paper in Agassiz.
-
Thank you Chris, that is great news!! The ball is rolling ;D I knew there would be concerned souls on this forum. It is obvious by the professional style this forum has and the way people treat each other here that makes this a great place to hang out. :) Good job by the mods as well. ;D
Sandy, I think I may be able to get a map of that area. I had one in the early 90's. One of the tackle stores was distributing it, maybe I can dig one up still.
I also forgot to give the name of the resource consulting firm which this company is using; it is J.O. Thomas and Associates Ltd.
ATS
-
Have forwarded this thread just now to Bill Otway, SDA President. Also to two Chilliwack Progress reporters. If anyone has contacts with the Vancouver Papers that would be worth exploring also.
To really fight this, a lobby group should be formed as you always have more clout this way with a president and an executive.
I am not volunteering to do this as I have 11 committes at the present but have found this to be be very effective as I have started 4 groups over the years, a lot of work but you can accomplish a lot.
Worth considering before it is too late.
-
Hey Guys,
Can I get CBC TV & Radio interviews for you guys? I think Mark Forsythe would be so incredibly keen to take this story, as he's a dedicated flyfisher.
Also, I can drop some paperwork at the TV Newsroom, they're always looking for leads...
Could I get a contact list of credible people to forward to our staff? I could use 3 good names with phone numbers to get the ball rolling... You can post them here or email them to me at: nicole@cbcradio3.com.
Thanks,
Nicole Goodman
-
Nicole, email sent, you should see it in the morning.
-
Wow, the ball is rolling, rolling, rolling......
Chris, you are definitely right about a lobby group. I am not exactly sure what that entails, but perhaps we could meet, and you could give me some info and advice on that. It sounds like you have a lot of valueable wisdom to offer.
I will send you a PM with my contact info if this sounds good to you.
I'm sure my wife will be very pleased that I have spread myself very thin again. :) Oh well, it's worth it if we win this battle.
Nicole, I sent you an email.
-
Hello everybody. I would like to let everyone know that I will be at the Vedder River Clean Up tomorrow morning at 9AM at the Blue Heron. If there are people interested in the fight against the Chehalis River gravel extraction proposal, please come and meet to discuss this with me.
I need all the help I can get with ideas, facts, contacts, etc.. Hopefully we can get a start on forming a lobby group.
Perhaps after the clean up we can stick around for a little while to share ideas and swap contact info.
I have spoke with Chris Gadsen this morning, and he told me that we are welcome to use a room at the Blue Heron to meet at after the clean up.
My name is Paul, and you can find out what I look like from my gallery photo's if it will help you locate me at the clean up.
I just hope our poker tournament will not go on too long tonight or I'll be in rough shape for the morning. :P ;D I'll be there either way.
Thanks,
Paul
ATS.
-
Paul's photo album:
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/member/gallery/ats
-
Good to speak to you on the phone this am ATS. Excellent research work you and others have done on this proposed gravel pit, which could be another attack on another one of our precious rivers.
I hope a few concerned anglers will be able to turn out tomorrow to give support to all the leg work you have given to this issue. Even if people that would like to get involved and cannot make the cleanup if they came around 12 to the GBHNR they could have a meeting then as the cleanup should be wrapped up by then.
As Sandy stated in one of his posts it is very important to make sure all the information that is gathered is factual right off the start before going to the press etc.
It might be in order to PM ATS or post here if you are interested in getting involved and are able to attend the planned get together tomorrow.
Thanks ATS for bringing this to our attention.
-
Thank you very much Rodney, and Chris.
The contact info you have given me has been of great help. I have been speaking with a member of the board of directors from the SFAC and the SFDA.
I have also in turn been given more contacts from that person.
I will also hopefully be attending a meeting between the Chehalis Native Band and the SFAC in February.
And also a special thank you to Sandy who managed to get the copy of the Gold companies letter to it's shareholders regarding this proposal.
A few of us were having trouble finding it in the companies records, and news releases.
Take care all,
ATS
-
I have taken the liberty to send the Mosquito Consolationed Gold Mine Ltd. news release to a couple of my contacts at the FVRD and FOC as I see iin it these agencies appear to express support for the developement of the property.
Have also sent it to some other anglers for their interest.
-
thanks chris,
has any of the other sites posted anything ? I posted a link on FBC to this site.
-
thanks chris,
has any of the other sites posted anything ? I posted a link on FBC to this site.
Yes I see it on Shore Talk on Fish BC, only 120 views.
-
Yes ADS and Sandy, I saw it on fish bc as well!! Also very surprised that there has been so few views at it!!
-
pretty dissapointed with the response on FBC,I guess it's not to much of a concern to most of them.
Sorry,was looking forward to meeting you all today,but was on a callout lastnight untill 6.00
-
This organization is based in Ontario but maybe they can be supportive some how.
Canadian Sportfishing Industry Association
http://www.csia.ca/
-
Hello everybody! What a great day at the Vedder River Clean up! I have not been to this clean up before, but I have to say that I will be attending all the future ones if possible.
I was fortunate to be teamed up with Tom ( Allwaysfishin ). In only a 400 yard area of the river we managed to collect a truck load of garbage. It is truly amazing how much garbage is out there. I always pick up garbage when I am out fishing (my vest is usually full by the end of the day) but I did not realize how much was really out there until I saw all of these vehicles full of garbage collected from the river!!
It was really good to hang out with Tom. We have a lot in common and have fished and hunted in a lot of the same areas of BC. Cheers Tom!! Tom took a couple of pictures of the garbage collected, hopefully he can post them later.
Congratulations to everybody that was involved with the organizing, and collecting! Not to mention the doughnuts and coffee. ;D
It's hard to believe that they do that three or four times a year and always collect that much garbage. Wow.
Thanks everyone!! :)
Besides having a great experience with the cleanup and meeting great people, I also had the chance to talk with some people who will be helping with the petition against the gravel pit proposal on the Chehalis/Statlu rivers.
After the clean up I sat with Rodney, Chris, Frank(SFAC), David(FVRD), Gwyn, and Tom(alwaysfishin) to discuss this petition. We swapped contact info, shared ideas, and expressed our concerns about this gravel pit proposal.
I gained a lot from my experience today and contacts I made.
The fight is on, and I will continue gathering information, and making allies over the next week. Durring the cleanup I received a call from Ed Mankelow, the Chairman of Mining Sub Community of the BCWF. After the clean up I called him back, and he expressed his deepest concerns. I sent him all of the information, and he told me he would contact me after looking it over, and doing some investigating. He also gave me some very valuable contacts.
I also asked Ed if he was involved with the Upper Pitt River Gravel Extraction Application and he said yes. I asked him if he would be able to dig up the files and archives. He said he would which is great because hopefully there is some valuable information there that we can use to help support our fight.
I also forwarded the shareholders letter to Bill Otway who had not seen it yet although he had received a link to this forum thread. I also spoke with Bill on the phone and asked him for his support.
Hopefully this week will bring more information, and more contacts, as I have plans to talk again with the DFO, Min of Energy and Mines, the BCWF, and others.
I am also planning to try and get a statement from the consulting firm.
Thanks to all who have helped and supported this petition.
ATS
-
ATS there was also some new interest on the fishbc site this morning you might want to check out!! There are a couple people there that are quite concerned as well. ;)
-
A real pleasure to meet you ATS and I salute you for all the work you have done on this file to date.
I am sure you will be able to count on a number from this forum to work and support the opposition to this proposal of a gravel minning operation that would threaten another of our Lower Mainland rivers.
You met some good contacts today at the cleanup as well that will help pick up the torch to make sure this operation does not get off the ground.
Thanks as well to you for attending and helping with the cleanup.
-
Thank you Big Steel. I am not registered on FishBC, but I will check it out and try to get them some info, and get them up to speed. We need all the help we can get!!
Chris, thank you for your kind words, and wonderful job at the clean up. I really appreciate your help and advice with this gravel proposal.
The people I met at the clean up are truly special. Seeing people care for our environment this way was very uplifting. We see way too much bad in this world and we need to surround ourselves with good as often as possible. :) The attention Rodney and his sight has brought to the Vedder River Clean Up is so valuable.
Glad to have been involved!
-
Not much of an update yet. My calls to the DFO and Min. of Energy and Mines were not returned today. However I did have a very positive conversation with a BCWF member who said they are completely behind this fight and will get a lot of helpful people and groups involved. They sure have a lot very powerful and influential contacts at their disposal.
I will keep everyone informed as things unfold.
ATS
-
Thanks for all the effort Addicted to Steel.
Ill support where I can and spread the word as well.
-
It has been determined that DFO most definately has not expressed support
for this propsal contrary to the comment in 3rd to last paragraph in News
Release. One could most certainly question whether the other groups have
also expressed support. This could perhaps be interpreted by the
Securities Commission as erroneous information. For your info the address
of the Securities Commission is: PO Box 10142 Pacific Centre 1250 West
Georgia Vancouver, B.C. V7T 1L2
-
Thank you very much 2:40 and Old Black Dog.
OBD, I will give the SC a call tomorrow to discuss this with them. I definately agree with your thoughts.
ATS
-
Here's a couple of thoughts regarding the Chehalis river and gravel that no one seems to be considering in the mass panic that seems to have started.
1. maybe the gravel plan is to do what they did on the Vedder to improve water flows and stop the upper part of the river from becoming shallower. The gravel pits down below have sure improved the water depth and flow in the rest of the river. Anyone remember the damaged caused to the upper Vedder when the gravel slide occurred a few years back.
2. Earlier addicted talks about summer water being so warm that its stresses the steelhead in the river. The cause being that the river is becoming shallower due to gravel naturally washing into the river. Over the years I’ve seen this slowly build and its killing this river.
In fact I heard that the regional district has had studies done that indicate the Chehalis is slowly dying due to the influx of gravel and silt during high water.
Maybe the gravel extraction plan will help solve this problem
3. I read over on the BCfishingreport forum about the gravel being washed down causing problems for the Coho down below the Easter seal run, coho spawning and dying in back channels which later completely dry up killing the eggs and thus reducing stocks
oh and by the way I've fished the Chehalis with my family for over 18 years now, delivered many brood steelhead to the hatchery and if anyone could come up with a viable, environmentally sound method of stopping the gravel being dumped into this river then I’m all for it.
-
Fishman, a few corrections.....
1. maybe the gravel plan is to do what they did on the Vedder to improve water flows and stop the upper part of the river from becoming shallower. The gravel pits down below have sure improved the water depth and flow in the rest of the river. Anyone remember the damaged caused to the upper Vedder when the gravel slide occurred a few years back.
The upper vedder was never being 'shallowed' out. The slide you are refering to was a clay slide not a gravel slide and it was repaired by the hard work of volunteer groups, not through gravel extraction in the lower river. Similarly, the upper Chehalis (river) is still in its untouched shape that it has always been in. As for removing gravel in the lower river to control floods, there are no solid facts on this actually working and it is a rather heated debate.
2. Earlier addicted talks about summer water being so warm that its stresses the steelhead in the river. The cause being that the river is becoming shallower due to gravel naturally washing into the river. Over the years I’ve seen this slowly build and its killing this river.
Summmer steelhead do not hold for long in the lower river. They usually shoot up the canyon as fast as possible so once more a shallower river is not an issue here. Over all the years prior to now the river has always flushed itself free of gravel without our help. Why should we start now, only difference right now is its currently in the process of changing courses and has consequently become braided. Still not an issue IMO.
Ok I lied, there is one other difference between our current and historical chehalis river. Much of the upper river has been logged causing surface runoff to penetrate the river at a much quicker rate. This, however, would give the river's water level much more of a sinusoidal pattern than historically. If anything, these large pushes of water would be more competent at pushing out excessive gravel than a more steady flow.
3. I read over on the BCfishingreport forum about the gravel being washed down causing problems for the Coho down below the Easter seal run, coho spawning and dying in back channels which later completely dry up killing the eggs and thus reducing stocks
I believe (someone correct me if I'm wonrg) that the vast majority of coho spawning occurs above the easter seal run. I have personally seen schools of coho in the hundreds sitting in the upper chehalis as well as large amounts of coho scattered about statlu creek.
The other key thing here is that in Mosquito's letter to stock holders that full out say that the gravel deposits they are specifically targetting are glacial till, not fluvial outwash. To explain it to everyone else with no background in earth and environmental sciences, what happend was 10,000 years ago the chehalis valley was covered by a large glacier. As this glacier slowly travelled down the valley its abbraisive nature caused it to break off bed rock and wear it down into smaller pieces ie gravel as it carried it down the valley. Eventaully, this gravel was deposited in very well sorted piles as glacial till. Eventually, the glacier melted away and these piles of till were covered by soil and vegetation and the chehalis river was born. Now, they want to mine out this till as it is piled very deep and it is very well sorted. The problem is that in order to do this they must dig large gravel pits within close proximity to the river. By doing this, any run off in the area will be silty and therefore choke the river with silt covering up potential spawning habitat similar to what happened on the coquitlam river.
Please don't think of this as a shot at you. We are all very concerned about this issue and wish the best for this precious river. It's just that we need to have all of our facts straight and can't have false information floating around.
-
glacial till and outwash are different, outwash is usually sorted by meltwater ,often seen on steep gravel banks showing crossbedding of the stratas,
till is usually deposited by the bulldozer type action of the glacier beneath its self ,as the glacier retreats the melt waters wash the till and sort the components which are then deposited depending on the combination of slope grades and quantity of water and weight of the material being transported ( natural sluice box).
the main question will be how close to the river will be considered safe.I doubt that unless It can be proven a gravel extraction operation/mine would be of unacceptable risk to the river, it will go ahead.The job in hand will to be prove that this operation will risk the river system to the appropriate agencies. making infactual statements will only waste valuable resources in litigation. remember the other side is probably as passionate about their cause ( making Bucks)
-
I contacted the securities commision today to give them the information about the news release letter and their(the mining company's) statement about the support they have received from the groups they list in the letter. I explained that some of the groups have denied giving this support to the mining company.
I was told by the woman I spoke to that they are very interested in investigating this.
Tomorrow I will be giving the SC my contacts, and I will also be asking for interviews from the other groups who have not gone on the record yet about the support statement.
Just so all of you know, I will not be debating the goods or bads of a gravel mine adjacent to a river on this thread. I have explained my position on this, and I will continue to fight this battle, as I know all of you who believe the same will do as well. Everybody is entitled to show their own concerns and opinions, that is the nature of a forum such as this.
However, I am choosing to report only my findings, and progress on this petition on this thread from this point on. If people choose to debate it on the thread than be my guest. I will not get involved that way. I hope you all understand. I will save my "opinions, and beliefs" for the final presentation where they will be backed up by only facts, and examples from concerned groups and individuals.
ATS
-
Interesting corrections, unfortunately only half truths.
1. Anyone who knows the upper vedder has seen the shallowing of some of the runs as part of the natural process. Campground for example used to have a beautiful large deep pool that’s no longer there. As for the slide it was made of clay, silt and gravel not just clay. As for the gravel removal down below its already been established by experts that it is and has worked only the die hard no development at any cost environmentalists disagree.
2. Winter steelhead hold and spawn in the lower rivers (we hook lots wild and hatchery every year right through to end of April in the backwoods) and they are in much bigger numbers than summer. As for the river flushing free the gravel, why then when I phoned the regional district did they talk of major problems in the Chehalis, they said that they had a report recently done by experts who point to major problems?
Its funny guess you haven’t walked the canyon very much and seen how the size and shape of the pools from Chehalis lake to Easter seal have changed over the past 15 years
The Fraser river by the way is having the same shallowing problems in an even bigger way.
3. There are way more Coho below the road bridge than above from what I’ve seen over the years. I too see lots of dead coho this year in these braided channels and these go bone dry in the spring. I also find pools filled with tomatoes that have been there since September and they still chase blades by the way.
4. I also read the press release from mosquito, it clearly states “property underlain by thick glacial outwash complex ..” Not glacial till. So my question is why the change in wording? I talked to a geologist friend of mine who also goes fishing, he says that the outwash are all washed clean of fines and clay and well sorted, while till contains all sorts of clay and fines. So is this the reason you tried to change the wording!! Once we see the exact area of this gravel operation, I’ll take my friend fishing and we will check it out.
I too like to keep the facts straight and stop false information or half truths floating around, but what really bugs me is the amount of twisting and misleading information that is put out by radical environmental groups in order to create hysteria and fear amongst the uninformed public. So I myself will continue to investigate the true facts to see if this indeed is a problem or part of a solution designed to provide a balance between development and protecting a valuable river.
-
If there is any doubt, just follow the money.
Who is going to make money from this?
-
1. Anyone who knows the upper vedder has seen the shallowing of some of the runs as part of the natural process. Campground for example used to have a beautiful large deep pool that’s no longer there.
So lets just assume for a second that you are correct about the upper river shallowing from natural processes then why not accept it as such. How is gravel extraction in the lower river responsible for this?
As for the gravel removal down below its already been established by experts that it is and has worked only the die hard no development at any cost environmentalists disagree.
I was unaware of any conclusive findings regaurding this. Perhaps you would care to bring the study to my attention.
2. Winter steelhead hold and spawn in the lower rivers (we hook lots wild and hatchery every year right through to end of April in the backwoods) and they are in much bigger numbers than summer.
Apples to oranges. ATS was originally concerned with the well being of summer run fish not winter runs. I'm curious, these winter runs that you catch in the lower river, are they spawners/ have you ever seen them on the beds. I'm asking because the only spawners/fish on the beds that I've ever came across were in the upper river.
As for the river flushing free the gravel, why then when I phoned the regional district did they talk of major problems in the Chehalis, they said that they had a report recently done by experts who point to major problems?
Major problem? How about the hatchery is drying while the native reserve is being flooded. Seems like a bit of a problem to me.
Its funny guess you haven’t walked the canyon very much and seen how the size and shape of the pools from Chehalis lake to Easter seal have changed over the past 15 years
Funny I was going to sugest the same thing. Unfortnatly I have only been fishing the canyon for four years so I cannot comment on the dynamics of the river in this area.
The Fraser river by the way is having the same shallowing problems in an even bigger way.
See rebuttal to point number 1.
3. There are way more Coho below the road bridge than above from what I’ve seen over the years. I too see lots of dead coho this year in these braided channels and these go bone dry in the spring. I also find pools filled with tomatoes that have been there since September and they still chase blades by the way.
Well thats just where you and me differ. As for there being dead coho in dried channels who is to say how they got there. Is it not possible that these dead fish spawned elsewhere and where washed down here later on.
Your statement about coho being trapped in pools since september is just plain silly. I'm assuming that you are refering to Purdey's or perhaps some of the other backwoods pools further down that channel. I too have seen schools of fish trapped in these pools. Assumably they moved up during high water and got stuck after the water dropped. However, what is to stop them from continuing on after the water has once more risen. This is souther B.C. we're talking about, its not as if it doesn't rain.
4. I also read the press release from mosquito, it clearly states “property underlain by thick glacial outwash complex ..” Not glacial till. So my question is why the change in wording? I talked to a geologist friend of mine who also goes fishing, he says that the outwash are all washed clean of fines and clay and well sorted, while till contains all sorts of clay and fines. So is this the reason you tried to change the wording!! Once we see the exact area of this gravel operation, I’ll take my friend fishing and we will check it out.
So you did read the press release. Well then at least no we can stop disucssing the idea of gravel removal in the lower river.
Ok you got me there. Outwash is in fact different than till. As you eluded to till is deposited directly by melting ice whereas outwash is distributed by meltwater streams. Two very similar entities, however, when I was writting my original responce to you I was thinking of something else. If you want to see the sight of the gravel operation just go for a drive, they pretty much tell you exactly where in the press release. Between Statlu and Boulder creeks, not exactly a huge area. FYI should you happen to go through with this and check out the area, on your way down the boulder creek road you will notice a rather large scree slope which should give you a pretty decent idea of what we're dealing with.
Are you accusing me of twisting the facts? I've been around here for a while and those who know me know that I am deeply concerned with this and know what I stand for.
So after all the dust has settled we must get back to the original issue you raised. Is the river slowly dying on account of the fact that no one is removing gravel deposits that are several hundreds yards from the actual river itself. Is it that this river that has maintained itself for thousands of years is suddenly in trouble and requires our help to restore its natural balance.
-
When did this become a debate!! ???
-
Replies
1. Got it wrong… rock gravel extraction in lower not responsible. Gravel extraction in lower river is supposedly designed to increase flows thereby moving the gravel from higher up the river into the lower section. I.E. remove gravel between Keith Wilson and railroad bridge, gravel above railroad bridge moves down to fill hole and so on as it works up the river. Also Coho seem to love the gravel pit areas, at least that’s where we catch lots. A friend of mine who works indirectly with fisheries says he as seen the studies and although it takes a long time it apparently is working.
2. I’ve sat on the high banks on the Indian side of the river in the bushes where all the water is and watched steelhead creating nests in the gravel with their tales. Seen up to 20 sometimes in the pools. Take a walk down there in May when the river is closed. That’s probably why you never see them spawn. By the way they love worms and roe. We hook and release lots especially in April. We even seen the steelhead spawning on the gravel below the hatchery in May, but water has been too low for the past couple of years for that to happen. Coho spawn through out this area of the river along with chum, pink and the odd sockeye. Oh and don’t forget the red springs. In fact we were catching lost of fresh coho in some of these channels when the water was high.
3. hatchery drying reserve flooding yep that’s right, you’re getting the idea.
4. as for the trapped Coho of course they are not the same fish from September. Just last week I saw a dozen dead Coho and two live brick red ones swimming in a 10 foot long by 5 foot wide by 2 foot deep pool surrounded by gravel. These channel get reused every time the water rises so there might be three or four spawning sessions during the run in these areas. As soon as the river drops these areas are as dry as a bone and the eggs die. Locally some small pools survive all year and you can find hatched fish in them but the majority of these areas dry right up. I’ll take some pictures next trip if any are left alive.
As for the rest given the amount of material that is currently being washed into the Chehalis river flushed through the canyon and out into the lower area. You’re darn right it’s a major problem. When the canyon gets scoured in the floods what do you think happens to all the eggs in the gravel that is being scoured and then refilled.
Biffchan it wasn’t you twisting the facts it was addicted… who called the stuff Till instead of outwash. Which appears to me to be a deliberate attempt to mislead. Suggest you ask the regional district, natives about their concerns about the current status of the river.
-
bigsteel
whats wrong with a debate?
Afraid of the truth!!!
-
bigsteel
whats wrong with a debate?
Afraid of the truth!!!
This thread was not created for a debate, it was started to bring the Chehalis situation to light, and to see what could be done to stop it!! I think that it should get back on topic as well!!
-
Fishman says:
Biffchan it wasn’t you twisting the facts it was addicted… who called the stuff Till instead of outwash. Which appears to me to be a deliberate attempt to mislead. Suggest you ask the regional district, natives about their concerns about the current status of the river.
What in the world are you talking about "friend"? Can you please show me where I have said anything at all about till or outwash? You better get your facts straight before posting BS on someone else's thread.
And I am now asking you to please discontinue posting your untruths on this thread. I am not asking you to stop posting your views, but please do it on your own thread which you can create on your own please. If people choose to debate this issue with you then fine, but do not lie about things that I have said or written.
Everything I have posted about this proposal is verbatim from the DFO and Ministry of Energy and Mines. When I posted something that was my "opinion", I stated it as such. So please do not say anyone is trying to mislead anyone. This thread was started to inform, and ask for help, and research. There will be no BS associated with this petition, so please do not bring any into it. If you have problems with any information I have given, you may contact me directly. I will then lead you to the proper people with whom you can raise your concerns with.
If this gravel operation is beneficial to our environment then you have nothing to worry about do you?
-
"If this gravel operation is beneficial to our environment then you have nothing to worry about do you?"
well said
Maybe it was my statement re: outwash/till???
-
I think one of the earliest posts sort of... pointed a negative finger directly at the native band. Could be that this other person has a resource that has not yet been made available to the rest of us.
I'd like to see all the facts. I know what changes can happen over a relatively short period of time with regards to water. My childhood play place was a little creek that ran through our property. Just a little winter run off creek that usually ended up dry by august.. It was perfect, we could ride our bikes throught some parts because it was so shallow.. now the erosion is so bad it's at least a 6ft drop from the original creek bed, to where it is now. That's only been (dare I say only..hehe) 20 years. What ever clear cut logging occured in the upper part of the mountain has severely and negatively affected this little creek. The other creek I used to frequent was a regular creek that supports kokanee, rainbows and suckers. Didn't change for years and years and then about 3 years ago I went there (I had moved away) and noticed that erosion was so bad there as well that they had to do emergency restructuring.
I read in one of the posts that there was clear cutting in the area. This will kill the water system, and leaving it 'as is' is only going to help it die. Unfortunatly no one realized then exactly what clear cutting could do in a short 20 years. if the area is mostly gravel, the river banks aren't going to be able to support it for very long, whether it dries up or erodes away, something has to be done to fix it.
I commend Addicted for all the work he's doing. I certainly hope a solution that benefits the water system first can be found. I'm sure all parties are equally concerned with the future of the river, but benefiting a community as well is nothing to look down at. I'm sure that community has generations more ties to the water and land than anyone on this forum. I'm sure that wasn't Addicted's intention.
-
I see and the stifling of opinions that differ from your own begins. Its always the same with people trying to cause hysteria and panic without all the facts.
Addicted. How soon you forget what you post.
What in the world are you talking about "friend"? Can you please show me where I have said anything at all about till or outwash? You better get your facts straight before posting BS on someone else's thread.
Here's your exact quote from your post on page 4
“The other key thing here is that in Mosquito's letter to stock holders that full out say that the gravel deposits they are specifically targetting are glacial till, not fluvial outwash “
Here's what the press release actaully said
The property is underlain by a thick glacial outwash complex possibly having been deposited against occluding glacial ice
So in your own words "You better get your facts straight before posting BS on someone thread"
-
prettyfly you're right clearcut has occured over the years in most of the upper area, just drive up to Statlu creek and you'll see the huge clearcuts. In fact it looks in a lot of places along the creek and the river that the entire area is slowly moving into the river. If this is simply left alone then the river is going to die and maybe some of these not-in-my-backyard types better do a lot more investigation instead of trying to cause mass panic and hysteria.
-
I should suggest that you really READ CAREFULLY WHAT YOU QUOTE PEOPLE AS SAYING!!!!!!! You are trying your hardest to destroy a beneficial thread.
Once again you have lied on this thread.
The quote you have shown and claimed I said is a post written by Biffchan, not I.
As all the readers can see here you are obviously very nervous about something, so nervous you have to lie.
So once again, keep your NONSENSE off of this thread.
READ PAGE 4 FISHMAN. AS YOU CLAIMED YOU HAVE.
I only want what is good for the environment, as does everybody I would hope. You can try to twist anything around you can, but in the end, you will see that I do not choose to play the same game as you Fishman.
It doesn't take readers long to figure someone out Fishman, so unfortunately for you I suppose.
Hysteria is not caused by information gathering, and fact finding, as enlightened people well know.
I am curiouse as to why you will not start your own post Fishman? Maybe you could gain some allies in your favor?
-
Destroy a beneficial thread. Wow I must have hit a real nerve!
Sorry, I guess it was biffchan after all the made the remark about the till after all. But you two sound so much the same its difficult to tell you apart. Maybe your form the same organization.
As for the lies boy that’s a bit of an exaggeration. So please inform what other lies you are babbling about.
What’s the matter can’t stand a different opinion to your one sided views. I hate to inform you but last time I looked we lived in a democratic and relatively free society with the freedom the speak ones mind.
I’m sure the moderators of the forum are quite aware of this and will prevent posters from deliberating trying to prevent opposing views from being suppressed.
So now comes the next stage where the name calling and the threats begin. So typical of the radicals who try to create hysteria and fear amongst the uninformed..
As I suggest I think you should follow your own mantra and quit posting half truths and exaggerations so typical of the radicals.
Go ahead phone the Regional District and ask them about the studies done on the Chehalis problems. Talk to the native bands.
As for leaving the thread I’m not the one going around calling people liars!!
As for the rest, game, I didn’t realize that trying to solve major problems in a great fishing river is a game. The problem I see is you haven’t done your homework on the river and what has happened to it over the past 20 years.
So despite your attempts to suppress an alternative opinion, fishman will continue to post the facts as this we see how this develops. If the project is as bad as you say for the river then it wont proceed, however if its good for the river and resolves a lot of the problems currently identified then it should proceed. I would strongly suggest a wait and see attitude rather than a stop it at all costs approach.
-
Furthermore, let me inform you as to who I am. I'm engineer that has been involved in all types of projects throughout the world and as I stated earlier my family and I have fished the Chehalis just about every week for 18 years. We do miss the occasional weekend due to snow, or being out of town.
I have pictures of the river through this period. So I know the river I've seen what’s happening to it, can look at it from a some what technical view, as well as a fishing view, and I am very passionate about it.
I look on this gravel mining venture as a potential opportunity for us to clean up the river and put it on a more stable course. The cost of this work being paid for by the mining operation. If we wait for government money it will take forever and will never happen. Even the hatchery has had funding problems. It’s only a matter of time before those large gravel cliffs on the Chehalis and Statlu creeks end up in the river. If you don’t believe me just drive across the Statlu creek bridge, turn west and drive 600m look across the creek, you’ll see a huge high cliff composed entirely of sand and gravel, currently being cut into by the river when it floods. Instead of trying to shut the project down we should be making suggestions and becoming involved in the development to ensure it gets done properly and also to ensure that it will solve the problems already outlined. I’m sure the company who is proposing the work would welcome all input of a constructive nature.
Maybe that’s a better approach than this fear mongering and hysteria.
-
If I remember correctly only active glaciers has glacier outflow (from melted ice). After glacier fully retreated and what's left behind in piles is called till.
-
What’s the matter can’t stand a different opinion to your one sided views. I hate to inform you but last time I looked we lived in a democratic and relatively free society with the freedom the speak ones mind.
I’m sure the moderators of the forum are quite aware of this and will prevent posters from deliberating trying to prevent opposing views from being suppressed.
Actually this forum is private property.
You still have failed to answer my question. How is removing gravel hundreds of yards away from the river going to improve the state of the river in any way? You keep getting distracted from the issue at hand with you're debating of semantics and dissucssing how we should remove gravel from within the river.
-
looked up the definition here they are:
Glacial outwash: Gravel, sand, and silt, commonly stratified, deposited by melt water as it flows from glacial ice. Can be washed of all fines leaving behind partially sorted clean gravel and sand .
Glacial Till
The mass of rocks and finely ground material carried by a glacier, then deposited when the ice melted. Creates an unstratified material of varying composition. unsorted and unswashed all fines and clays still present.
There is a major difference between the two types. The gravel I've seen on Chehalis and Statlu looks very clean and sorted. I know it's probbaly important to understand the difference between the two.
Mind you the river sure turns red brown when the slides/floods occur in the upper river area. Last time I remember was two years ago and we were trying catch any of eight or nine steelhead we could see in this pool and the river changed to red brown in minutes and rose two feet and that was the end of fishing for the day. We barely made it back across the river at the hatchery.
bet some of you other guys remember these events.
-
You see that's what I'm saying. Glacial outwash IS created from active glacier. Since isn't one for thousands of years in that river basin I don't know why it's still called a glacier outwash?
Also the gravel and sand deposited is against occluding glacial ice. Which does not sound like a outwash which is suppose to be in a fan formation.
-
1.
How is removing gravel hundreds of yards away from the river going to improve the state of the river in any way?
Well I thought that was kind of obvious, if the gravel located up hill above the river is removed how can it enter the river. Just look into all those small creeks that flow from the hills into the Chehalis they are all carrying gravel and sand. Slowly moving it toward the river. In flash floods the loading increase dramatically. Now if this was removed and replaced by lake or lakes it would stop the gravel from entering into the system. Even stock the lake with fish.
You would therefore reduce the scouring in the canyon, shallowing of the pools and the huge amount of gravel being dumped at Easter seal and beyond. I suppose you could wait 40 years for the trees to grow back, but in the meantime the whole valley is subject to slides and movement of gravel from above the river into the river. That’s what all the various knowledgeable groups are recognizing as a major problem for the river. And thats what I've seen happening in the river over the years.
2. Sure Glacial outwash is created by an active glacial but it gets deposited and therefore is preserved and overtime buried and exposed. Outwash deposits are easily identified from till by the lack of fines and clays in them. There are lots of glacial outwash deposits throughout Canada in areas where there are no glaciers, I’ve actually been involved with building highways through a couple.
-
Well I thought that was kind of obvious, if the gravel located up hill above the river is removed how can it enter the river. Just look into all those small creeks that flow from the hills into the Chehalis they are all carrying gravel and sand. Slowly moving it toward the river. In flash floods the loading increase dramatically. Now if this was removed and replaced by lake or lakes it would stop the gravel from entering into the system. Even stock the lake with fish.
Ok first of all, the area that they are planning to remove gravel from is rather small in comparison to the total area of the watershed below the lake. Even if you were correct in your logic it still wouldn't make a huge difference. Also, do you really think that Mosquito will be allowed to remove gravel from within a close proximity to tributary streams? I doubt it.
-
Surface mining, will remove vegetation which prevents erosion large amount of sand, soil, pables, rocks will all be exposed. Gravel will need to be washed, and a settling pond need to be created. All these during high rain will get washed into Chehalis. Why do you think it will not effect the river? The general area around Statlu is still well within Chehalis River Watershed.
-
I smell a rat :o
-
interesting comments.
1. The gravel is moving into the river right now. Therefore anything to stop it will be worthwhile. But maybe as part of the conditions of permit other identified problem areas could also be identified and resolved, thereby improving the overall basin.
2. of course they won’t be allowed to remove gravel from tributary streams, its all the surface runoff thats accurring as we speak, you see hundreds of them all along the upper road just count the number of culverts that cross the road.
3. Surface mining, will remove vegetation which prevents erosion large amount of sand, soil, pables, rocks will all be exposed. Gravel will need to be washed, and a settling pond need to be created. All these during high rain will get washed into Chehalis. Why do you think it will not effect the river? The general area around Statlu is still well within Chehalis River Watershed
Too late its already happened, I would think that as part of the granting of any right to mine there would have to be engineering designs done that would hand all flood and rain conditions to stop any of the material being worked, exposed. Moved etc from entering the river system. This will most likely be handled in the full environmental impact study including all engineering designs and studies. I’d think they’d design for the 200 year and even 1,000 year flood events, thereby preventing any runoff going to the river. I understand that was the problem over on the Coquitlam river, where there was no engineering design. If there wasnt a proper design within the plan teh I wouldnt support it either!!
4.I smell a rat
ah back to name calling again i see!!
-
Have I insulted you before? ???
-
I've locked this thread as it seems the discussion is starting to go towards a place that is rather unpleasant.
An issue has many sides, ALL those who participate in the discussion of an ongoing issue should listen, digest and respect others' point of views even if you do not agree with them.
ATS has done some fine research as noted in this thread, and I'm sure he'll present his findings at the next Fraser Valley Fisheries Dialogue between the sportfishing group and First Nations very well. It will be the first time when all parties will express their views on this project. I'm sure many are looking forward to what come out of these face-to-face discussions.
:)