Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: chris gadsden on August 28, 2017, 02:17:16 PM
-
For immediate release:
The Fraser River Sport Fishing Alliance will be conducting a Demonstration fishery Saturday Sept 2nd which is intended to demonstrate the selectivity of our bar fishery and the virtual zero impact on sockeye stocks. Anglers who wish to participate are asked to be at Island 22 launch site in Chilliwack at 8:30 AM. This will be a bar fishery only and other angling methods will not be permitted.
As our attempts to work with DFO to open the river to our selective fishery have been ignored and currently retention fisheries for chinook and pinks are taking place at the mouth of the river, we must take this action to attempt to save any remnants of our summer fishery.
The angling community has been patient and respective of conservation concerns. We suggest the number of in river net fisheries and outside fisheries suggests the conservation concerns have abated and our fishery should commence.
The Fraser River recreational fishery has been a priceless Canadian heritage for many generations. We have grave concerns that this fishery will be lost to our children and grandchildren.
For further info contact:
Rod Clapton ||| FRSA Co Chair ||| rclapton@shaw.ca Fred Helmer ||| FRSA Co Chair ||| fredhelmer55@gmail.com
Fraser River Sportfishing Alliance fraseralliance.com
-
Who gives you the right to this illegal action?
You want to have an open season and despite there being no opening for you you still defy the law?
Criminals don't deserve to fish for salmon. Bad on you and I don't support your actions at all.
I'm surprised this type of illegal demonstration is even allowed to be made public on this fine forum.
If the law says no fishing - why are you fishing. Stop before you become a criminal.
-
Who gives you the right to this illegal action?
You want to have an open season and despite there being no opening for you you still defy the law?
Criminals don't deserve to fish for salmon. Bad on you and I don't support your actions at all.
I'm surprised this type of illegal demonstration is even allowed to be made public on this fine forum.
If the law says no fishing - why are you fishing. Stop before you become a criminal.
Just putting it up for information, if Rodney does not wish it to be here I am sure it will be deleted.It is all over social media at this time anyway.
As well no where in my post did I say I was taking part.
-
For immediate release:
The Fraser River Sport Fishing Alliance will be conducting a Demonstration fishery Saturday Sept 2nd which is intended to demonstrate the selectivity of our bar fishery and the virtual zero impact on sockeye stocks. Anglers who wish to participate are asked to be at Island 22 launch site in Chilliwack at 8:30 AM.
Funny how this group only raises it head once per year. They did the same last year and their planned illegal fishery demo was preempted by DFO opening the river just days before. However this Alliance''s claim of victory over the DFO opening the river, was pretty sad - and desperate. I hope the same happens to them this year.
I have zero respect for any person or group who blatantly breaks the law in a shallow, pathetic attempt to "stick it to the man."
-
Might I suggest a LEGAL demonstration fishery as some have done here in Washington - go through the motions but don't use anything on the business end. So may be bar fishing with a spin-n-glo but no hook attached - just a swivel underneath.
-
you can legally fish is in the Fraser right now it's not closed.
If DFO asks you're just out there fishing for Barracuda
Of course this might result in them closing the whole Fraser to all fishing but i doubt it.
-
This is only for those with boats which unfortunately is a minority among recreational fishermen. Perhaps they should organize a peaceful demonstration/rally and march in front of a DFO office inviting the media to cover the event to explain the unfair treatment of the recreational fishing sector by DFO. The politicians should be invited too to witness this so they know it can matter to their votes if the number of protesters is large enough.
-
For all you guys poo-pooing the FRSA, its not about getting the last salmon. A lot of it has to do with having an equal voice with Gov/DFO on behalf of the rec fisherman. Right now, all that GOV/DFO care about is the commercial sector and the FNs fishers. CONSERVATION, FIRST NATIONS, RECREATIONAL, COMMERCIAL is how its supposed to go. Well, as of late, the REC sector is bottom of the barrel........do your research.
-
Well said Steelheadfreak Its Hard to do the research when you are bent over touching your toes waiting for the DFO's next move, and hopeing for some miracle to happen and the river opens!
-
For all you guys poo-pooing the FRSA, its not about getting the last salmon. A lot of it has to do with having an equal voice with Gov/DFO on behalf of the rec fisherman. Right now, all that GOV/DFO care about is the commercial sector and the FNs fishers. CONSERVATION, FIRST NATIONS, RECREATIONAL, COMMERCIAL is how its supposed to go. Well, as of late, the REC sector is bottom of the barrel........do your research.
Not poo-pooing the FRSA at all - I just don't think a demonstration that does nothing more than needlessly ties up several CO's time is effective. While the CO's are needlessly watching an illegal demonstration, the real criminals will see this as an opportunity to take advantage of the low probability of a CO somewhere's else. Of course with any demonstration, the RCMP will need to be there to ensure peace is kept which is more wasted resources.
It's closed for salmon - don't demonstrate that you are going to fish for salmon despite it being closed for salmon.
Whatever - do what you want because in the end it won't matter a hill of beans other than more wasted resources. It's not going to bring the salmon back nor is an illegal demonstration going to open a fishing season when there is no fish. Are you so hungry to bar fish that you need a demonstration?
-
Or perhaps demonstrate in a way that can generate more positive coverage? Hold it at a popular fishing bar accessible to everyone and invite politicians and media where you can present your case intelligently and coherently. The optics of jetting off to who knows where just to fish in protest is not as justifiable IMHO.
-
As long as they get the media out there it will be well worth it!
It's not fair at all, If you want to protect salmon then I have always been an advocate for a coastal wide closure. Fraser River fish are being harvested everywhere up and down the coast. I don't care about if the old timers don't get to fish they had there day and they killed the resource, If they need to close it for the next 20 years then so be it.
The Americans are getting a commercial fishery on fraser river stock
ALL CITIZEN FISHERY:
Areas 7 and 7A: Open to purse seines, with non-retention of sockeye, from 5 a.m. to 9 p.m.,
Tuesday, August 29, 2017.
Areas 7 and 7A: Open to gillnets, with non-retention of sockeye, from 8 a.m. to 11:59 p.m.,
Tuesday, August 29, 2017.
Areas 7 and 7A: Open to reef nets, with non-retention of sockeye, from 5 a.m. to 9 p.m.,
Tuesday, August 29, 2017, and from 5 a.m. to 9 p.m., Wednesday, August 30, 2017.
(Note: U.S. All Citizen fishers should check the U.S. hotline and WDFW regulations before fishing
as there are additional State of Washington regulations, including time restrictions that may be in
effect).
The next in-season meeting of the Panel is scheduled to occur on Thursday, August 31, 2017 at
1:00p.m.
Sporties that fish the Fraser need to get out there and force their opinion and be heard!!! I support it!
Or perhaps demonstrate in a way that can generate more positive coverage? Hold it at a popular fishing bar accessible to everyone and invite politicians and media where you can present your case intelligently and coherently. The optics of jetting off to who knows where just to fish in protest is not as justifiable IMHO.
Bang on it needs media support not just do be a pain in the my friend to C&P staff who will probably call in sick anyways because they think the river should be open,
-
For all you guys poo-pooing the FRSA, its not about getting the last salmon. A lot of it has to do with having an equal voice with Gov/DFO on behalf of the rec fisherman. Right now, all that GOV/DFO care about is the commercial sector and the FNs fishers. CONSERVATION, FIRST NATIONS, RECREATIONAL, COMMERCIAL is how its supposed to go. Well, as of late, the REC sector is bottom of the barrel........do your research.
Complain all you want but the current laws and regs are written this way. I can never figure out all the 1000's of words split and argued over this subject every year on this forum and actually never results in action.
You want to change laws and regs and save the fish, don't sit on your arse and play armchair fisheries expert. Instead run for office, get educated and apply for a job at DFO or wherever your voice may be heard and help make change. All the bs bickering and finger pointing here reminds me of the quote from the end of the movie "Platoon": We did not fight the enemy; we fought ourselves. And the enemy... was in us.
As for me, it would not bother me a bit if the river was closed for a few years if it meant that it would help the salmon. But in the meantime and as I do a few times a week, I walk the Fraser, cleaning up garbage, educating (and occasionally RAPP) people for fishing out of season, not following regs and so on. Also next week, I will be fishing up in the interior and will come back with a truck load of garbage from river cleanup like I do every year.
Some may think this is insignificant in the big picture, but at least I am trying to do my part to help save the fish. Not bad for a full status FN person - which is almost everybody's favorite whipping group here.
-
Not poo-pooing the FRSA at all - I just don't think a demonstration that does nothing more than needlessly ties up several CO's time is effective. While the CO's are needlessly watching an illegal demonstration, the real criminals will see this as an opportunity to take advantage of the low probability of a CO somewhere's else. Of course with any demonstration, the RCMP will need to be there to ensure peace is kept which is more wasted resources.
It's closed for salmon - don't demonstrate that you are going to fish for salmon despite it being closed for salmon.
Whatever - do what you want because in the end it won't matter a hill of beans other than more wasted resources. It's not going to bring the salmon back nor is an illegal demonstration going to open a fishing season when there is no fish. Are you so hungry to bar fish that you need a demonstration?
I guess you really are missing the point of it all............ Its pretty easy to sit back and troll every post that people make on these forums, and you do. You really, really do....lol. You quit BB. You don't fish for salmon anymore on the Fraser and your selling your gear. Good for you. If you never want to fish this river again, why post at all? Its not like you are helping. Speaking of helping, what have you done, besides hang up your BB gear, to help out the salmon and the rec sector? The FRSA is for fisherman. A voice for the rec sector we truly are lacking. The rec sector is the most divided group there is. He said she said. A single voice is needed........Now you may think that the FRSA is going about this all wrong. Tell me, and the rest of us the right way? I will speak frankly here. I'm willing to get my hands dirty. Wade through the sewage so that guys like you can once again fish the Fraser for salmon.
As for COs time and DFO enforcements time being wasted, its not. With them having to be out on the river, because of a demonstration fishery, it gets noticed. By the GOV and John Q Public.
-
A lot of boat fish for sturgeon in Fraser river. If they want to change the setup, there is no one can stop
-
I guess you really are missing the point of it all............ Its pretty easy to sit back and troll every post that people make on these forums, and you do. You really, really do....lol. You quit BB. You don't fish for salmon anymore on the Fraser and your selling your gear. Good for you. If you never want to fish this river again, why post at all? Its not like you are helping. Speaking of helping, what have you done, besides hang up your BB gear, to help out the salmon and the rec sector? The FRSA is for fisherman. A voice for the rec sector we truly are lacking. The rec sector is the most divided group there is. He said she said. A single voice is needed........Now you may think that the FRSA is going about this all wrong. Tell me, and the rest of us the right way? I will speak frankly here. I'm willing to get my hands dirty. Wade through the sewage so that guys like you can once again fish the Fraser for salmon.
As for COs time and DFO enforcements time being wasted, its not. With them having to be out on the river, because of a demonstration fishery, it gets noticed. By the GOV and John Q Public.
Okay - you're right. You convinced me and I truly do appreciate your efforts as with the FRSA but I'm not fighting anymore. There are always multiple views on anything worth fighting for.
You want to demonstrate - you go for it.
I respect your rights and opinions.
You're right, I don't have to comment but I damn well felt like it - so I did. I voiced my opinion.
-
Steelhawk, the demonstration fishery is being held at island 22 boat launch site. Its open to all who wish to participate. Not for boat anglers only. Its for bar fishing only.
-
I'm on board with Rieber on this one. It's a race to the bottom and I don't want to be a part of it :(
Steelheadfreak: Is that an alternate account? You've only been registered for four days, on the site for 56 minutes total, and made only two posts (both here)?
-
My first thought is how many individuals involved with organizing the protest have a financial stake in it? asking people to break the law....hmmm. I as pissed as anyone, but I have concerns about the optics here.
-
Presently bar fishing is not closed nor illegal, salmon retention is and this protest is C&R from what I'm getting so technically you could still bar fish for summer steel. Why so sour everybody? I couldn't attend the event myself but I wish good luck to everyone involved.
-
Funny how this group only raises it head once per year.
Hey now, they pop up at least every quarter asking for money ;)
Zero sympathy or support for you snowflakes who they are more important than conservation and population management efforts.
This organization needs to start carrying themselves professionally and using appropriate channels like any other political groups. Otherwise, disband and stop embarrassing BC anglers and giving us a bad name.
-
I'm on board with Rieber on this one. It's a race to the bottom and I don't want to be a part of it :(
Steelheadfreak: Is that an alternate account? You've only been registered for four days, on the site for 56 minutes total, and made only two posts (both here)?
Not an alternate. I don't come here much as I frequent 2 other forums most of the time. Same handle. Fly BC and Speypages. I lurk here from time to time. I mostly fly fish these days so I concentrate on those 2 sites. That said, I still bar rig when I can as well as swing flys on the Fraser. I see where you were headed with your comment so I'm cutting you off at the pass......http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/Smileys/default/wink.gif
-
I was going to offer an opinion but after reading the response to Riebers post I can see that I have no right to offer that opinion. Perhaps one day I will have enough cred to avoid the stern talking to that Reiber got. Thanks steelheadfreek for pointing out that our opinions are not as valid as yours.
Good luck to you and the other stakeholders in your protest.
-
My first thought is how many individuals involved with organizing the protest have a financial stake in it? asking people to break the law....hmmm. I as pissed as anyone, but I have concerns about the optics here.
I'm a supporter of the group, nothing else and I have zero financial stake. Just my sanity.
-
I was going to offer an opinion but after reading the response to Riebers post I can see that I have no right to offer that opinion. Perhaps one day I will have enough cred to avoid the stern talking to that Reiber got. Thanks steelheadfreek for pointing out that our opinions are not as valid as yours.
Good luck to you and the other stakeholders in your protest.
lets hear it. I gave him a hard time as I'm sick of his trolling on this and other forums. He talks down to people. Little of his own medicine. So how do you see it?
-
lets hear it. I gave him a hard time as I'm sick of his trolling on this and other forums. He talks down to people. Little of his own medicine. So how do you see it?
I don't troll anymore either. I haven't used my electric motor in years. Mostly chironomid fishing is all I do these days.
-
I don't troll anymore either. I haven't used my electric motor in years. Mostly chironomid fishing is all I do these days.
ZIIIIIIING!
-
I agree with the others in this thread who are opposed to this. This demonstration is childish at best and won't accomplish anything. The demonstration comes across to the public as a toddler who has a tantrum who won't get their way. If you want change, annoy the HELL out of your local MP, the DFO, your local paper, etc. If you want change, the squeaky wheel will always get the grease. Don't try and change something by throwing a fit and violating the laws. If you wanted to increase the speed limit on a road because you thought it was too low, you wouldn't hold a demonstration by gathering your friends and speeding up and down the road at your desired speed would you?
-
May be this demonstration fishery and media attention is needed to pressure DFO to open it by Saturday. Probably BC TV or CBC is invited to film the situation down there. If they feel no pressure, then may be they'll open it in October.
-
I just don't get what they're trying to prove. DFO knows bar fishing doesn't hurt sockeye stocks. They have it closed because even if they open it to selective methods there will still be a bunch of idiots bottom bouncing. Unfortunately it's a case of the few ruining it for the many.
-
I just don't get what they're trying to prove. DFO knows bar fishing doesn't hurt sockeye stocks. They have it closed because even if they open it to selective methods there will still be a bunch of idiots bottom bouncing. Unfortunately it's a case of the few ruining it for the many.
This ^^^
-
I am with Rieber 100% on this one.
From the legal point of view, going out to bar fish in spite of the closure is no different from starting a camp fire in spite of the fire ban.
As for being entitled to an opinion...of course we are.
Opinions are just that...opinions. They are like a$$holes...everybody has one.
I, for one, am thankful for boats and interior lakes filled with big trout.
Salmon fishing be damned. My friendly FN neighbour always has whatever I need at unbeatable prices. :P
-
Why not make it a positive instead of a negative? Maybe get everyone with a boat out there and those that don't have boats with cameras that can ride with those with boats and patrol the river for illegal fishing. Draw attention to that instead.
Also, it isn't the fact that people floss so would you guys please quit. Good lord. The FN have stated that if they see rec fishers out there (it doesn't matter what type of fishing, bar fishing, flossing, dip netting, grabbing fish with their dang hands) they will consider themselves open for netting. The reason the river isn't open to rec fishing is because DFO is being held hostage.
-
My first thought is how many individuals involved with organizing the protest have a financial stake in it? asking people to break the law....hmmm. I as pissed as anyone, but I have concerns about the optics here.
Fred Helmer (owner of Fred's Custom Tackle) is one of the Alliance stakeholders and is listed as their Spokesperson on their website. His company will never see a cent of my money as long he organizes and condones these protest / demo fisheries.
-
Also, it isn't the fact that people floss so would you guys please quit. Good lord. The FN have stated that if they see rec fishers out there (it doesn't matter what type of fishing, bar fishing, flossing, dip netting, grabbing fish with their dang hands) they will consider themselves open for netting. The reason the river isn't open to rec fishing is because DFO is being held hostage.
And I am sure you have a valid source link for the above?
-
And I am sure you have a valid source link for the above?
It's been referenced on here quite frequently. I believe Rodney has even verified it. I'm almost positive it was the exact tactic used last year as verified by numerous people. They will not be closed for conservation while others may potentially impact the run despite the level of impact possible.
-
It's been referenced on here quite frequently. I believe Rodney has even verified it. I'm almost positive it was the exact tactic used last year as verified by numerous people. They will not be closed for conservation while others may potentially impact the run despite the level of impact possible.
Valid link does not mean a fishing forum where people can anonymously post 3rd hearsay. You made a statement "The FN have stated that if they see rec fishers out there (it doesn't matter what type of fishing, bar fishing, flossing, dip netting, grabbing fish with their dang hands) they will consider themselves open for netting. The reason the river isn't open to rec fishing is because DFO is being held hostage.
So where is a valid link where the above statements can be verified? Was this on the 6 pm news, read on a news or FN or DFO website or press release?
-
While I'm not a supporter of FRSA, I do support thoughtful, non-violent, civil disobedience. Our province has a long history of civil disobedience: for example, Clayoquot Sound, Eagleridge Bluffs, Everywomen's Health Centre....
People stood up for what they believed strongly in, and some went to jail as a result.
If you feel that strongly about something, and you have thoughtfully exhausted all other legal/sanctioned means to effect change, and non-violent civil disobedience is your last resort, then accept the consequences and go for it.
But I won't boycott you for doing it.
-
While I'm not a supporter of FRSA, I do support thoughtful, non-violent, civil disobedience. Our province has a long history of civil disobedience: for example, Clayoquot Sound, Eagleridge Bluffs, Everywomen's Health Centre....
People stood up for what they believed strongly in, and some went to jail as a result.
If you feel that strongly about something, and you have thoughtfully exhausted all other legal/sanctioned means to effect change, and non-violent civil disobedience is your last resort, then accept the consequences and go for it.
But I won't boycott you for doing it.
BINGO!
-
While I'm not a supporter of FRSA, I do support thoughtful, non-violent, civil disobedience. Our province has a long history of civil disobedience: for example, Clayoquot Sound, Eagleridge Bluffs, Everywomen's Health Centre....
People stood up for what they believed strongly in, and some went to jail as a result.
If you feel that strongly about something, and you have thoughtfully exhausted all other legal/sanctioned means to effect change, and non-violent civil disobedience is your last resort, then accept the consequences and go for it.
But I won't boycott you for doing it.
Well said, Clarki.
But don't forget that this act of civil disobedience could result in the death of hundreds of salmon that should not be taken out of the river due to ongoing conservation issues.
I am sure there are other ways to protest that will not further imperil already threatened stocks.
Like others said above, it is groups who have financial interest in this who'd benefit the most from this action, not the fish.
I stand on the side of the fish, and I can't, for the life of me, see how an illegal protest fishery would work in their favour.
-
Good point, Milo. I didn't have the opportunity to articulate my entire perspective, but, to me, "non-violent" isn't just about violence to people, it also means non destructive: i.e. vandalism, killing fish...
And wearing a bandana over your face isn't thoughtful, non-violent, civil disobedience. It's thuggery.
-
Helmer organized a similar protest fishery back in the late 80s or so - maybe Chris remembers. Then it was to allow a sport take of chinook though previously it had been c&r only. As I recal they caught on bleeder and hung it up so DFO observers could see it. It wasn't too long before DFO allowed a harvest.
One difference though was runs were doing quite well after recovering from a decline in the 70s and 80s. The returns are crap this year which makes me feel this may be not that responsible.
Oh and to add, the FN groups have not in the past, opposed opening the river once sockeye migration through the lower river has reached or exceeded 90%. It is interception of sockeye by sport anglers when they, FNs have agreed not to take sockeye.
-
I believe the chinook numbers have been better than DFO estimated. There has been numerous harvesting going on for these chinooks on the fraser... This protest fishery is for DFO to see that bar fishing is very selective fishery targeting chinook and not sockeye. Any fish caught will be released and some will be bar fishing with no hooks. They want to get the point across that the recreational Bar fishing sector is always excluded from harvesting during depressed stock estimates....but t it is not showing low numbers of chinook at the moment. BUUUUT!...the first nations will see this as their right to net sockeye and the bottom bouncers will try to get a piece of the action as well doing what they do best. :o
-
For immediate release:
The Fraser River Sport Fishing Alliance will be conducting a Demonstration fishery Saturday Sept 2nd which is intended to demonstrate the selectivity of our bar fishery and the virtual zero impact on sockeye stocks. Anglers who wish to participate are asked to be at Island 22 launch site in Chilliwack at 8:30 AM. This will be a bar fishery only and other angling methods will not be permitted.
As our attempts to work with DFO to open the river to our selective fishery have been ignored and currently retention fisheries for chinook and pinks are taking place at the mouth of the river, we must take this action to attempt to save any remnants of our summer fishery.
The angling community has been patient and respective of conservation concerns. We suggest the number of in river net fisheries and outside fisheries suggests the conservation concerns have abated and our fishery should commence.
The Fraser River recreational fishery has been a priceless Canadian heritage for many generations. We have grave concerns that this fishery will be lost to our children and grandchildren.
For further info contact:
Rod Clapton ||| FRSA Co Chair ||| rclapton@shaw.ca Fred Helmer ||| FRSA Co Chair ||| fredhelmer55@gmail.com
Fraser River Sportfishing Alliance fraseralliance.com
"This will be a bar fishery only and other angling methods will not be permitted." - Now that's funny, come fish illegally, but then set rules on how you must illegal fish. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I can't get over how hilarious this sounds. So what happens if someone tosses a croc?, are the bar fishermen going to call DFO on them ( LMAO )?, ruff them up? all while they are fishing illegally...this is so messed up.
-
"This will be a bar fishery only and other angling methods will not be permitted." - Now that's funny, come fish illegally, but then set rules on how you must illegal fish.
I noticed that also. Just demonstrates that there is still honour among thieves (and poachers.)
-
So if Fishing with Rod chooses to support the Fraser River Sportfishing Alliance, most of you will stop coming on here again right? ;)
Lets clarify what the FRSA hopes to achieve on Saturday by laying out some facts.
Currently, bar fishing is not illegal on the Fraser River, which is still open for steelhead, trout and char fishing (and retention of hatchery-marked fish).
Saturday's event is not a protest fishery, participants will not be taking part in illegal activities, but rather they will be bar fishing only, and releasing all salmon that are caught.
Whether you agree with it or not, some of you are out of line for questioning the character of Fred and other directors of the FRSA. These are the individuals who are actually working hard behind the scene daily to find solutions so we can regain some of the recreational fishing opportunities that have been lost in the Fraser Valley in the past ten years. Just about all of you are unaware of the challenges and frustrations which my colleagues and I have experienced in the past few years. All of us who are involved have been urging Fisheries and Oceans Canada to make bar fishing a mandatory practice in the summer when sockeye salmon is closed so we can actually have a fishery. Motions were passed at the local SFAC to get things moving, but it has been declined everytime once it reached the final stage. This past year we have been asking for Fisheries and Oceans Canada to conduct studies on bar fishing's impact on sockeye salmon, that was declined. I have stressed repeatedly that the large % of unselective fishing practice in the Tidal Fraser River from their aerial survey is wrong because there's no way anyone is unselectively fishing and hooking sockeye down there unless you are intentionally snagging them. Those concerns were never addressed, so we continue to have a Tidal Fraser closure while sockeye by-catch is not a concern. Two years ago I wanted to make sure the regulations were correct as it should have been "no retention for pink salmon" instead of "no fishing" so catch and release opportunities were still available. The response the group received was "pink and chum are not open to retention at this time so why would fishers be targeting them?" Personally I have given up attending the SFAC process in the past two years because I don't see any progress and I feel that my limited time can be better used somewhere else.
Currently there is very little interest in the department to go out of their way to find opportunities for openings, rather we have seen blanket closures as the easier route to manage a user group. The FRSA hopes to change that, by having a united voice in this community so people can recreational fish again when conservation requirements are met.
And of course majority of the directors who lead this have a financial stake in this recreational fishing industry! Why is that a surprise? Who's going to do this for free? Those who volunteered to do this quickly realized the amount of work involved at meetings and emails is simply not worth it. Closures like this and their domino effects are devastating to businesses. I've financially struggled this year because my clients like Fred have taken a big hit, so we have to adapt and find ways to change things.
If you wish to participate on Saturday. Fred has informed me that there'll be boats shuttling anglers to the bars.
-
Wow, there are some terribly uninformed people posting on this site. To bash the very people who have worked for decades to keep us fishing is gross. Standing on a internet soap box hiding behind a screen is pathetic.
At the very least, know the history of the Fraser River fishery before making bold claims about guys that have been there fighting for you and your friends and families right to a fair access to fish for Salmon on the Fraser River.
http://www.fraservalleysalmonsociety.ca/history.html (http://www.fraservalleysalmonsociety.ca/history.html)
-
Lets clarify what the FRSA hopes to achieve on Saturday by laying out some facts.
Currently, bar fishing is not illegal on the Fraser River, which is still open for steelhead, trout and char fishing (and retention of hatchery-marked fish).
Saturday's event is not a protest fishery, participants will not be taking part in illegal activities, but rather they will be bar fishing only, and releasing all salmon that are caught.
I think we all know that if you are targeting a fish that is closed to fishing, you are breaking the law, the intent here is not to catch steelhead, char or whatever else may be open, it's to show certain salmon species can be caught without intercepting Sockeye. Any way you slice this Rod it is a protest fishery. I understand the good work the various groups do on our behalf, I just choose not to agree with this particular event.
-
I don't believe it is anywhere near correct to call this action poaching.
I do think it is correct to call it a protest as hat is what it is; a public demonstration of disagreement with Government policy. Fact is demonstration and protest are often used interchangeably.
It is their right to express their opinion on the subject in this manner. I doubt any charges levied would stick or result in conviction.
I'd also ask if despite the current salmon closure it is legal to bar fish, what are these guys complaining about? Any chinook caught while angling for the absent and at greater conservation risk, interior steelhead, can be safely released.
Fact is this is mostly about their desire to get the ability to kill fish and at least for the guide operations, increase their business.
-
Did you even read the link????
Nothing illegal happening this Saturday. Just anglers out fishing. To suggest that this is targeting a certain species would be admitting that bar fishing is a very selective form of fishing and that is the very point trying to be made.
A spin n glo will catch Steelhead, trout, bull trout, Pink salmon, Chinook Salmon, Chinook jacks, coho Salmon and even a Sturgeon on occassion, but virtually never a Sockeye Salmon. Chinook stocks are moving through the Fraser in good numbers now with a strong effort all around the Fraser mouth and Vancouver area. Simply no reasonable reason why we couldnt have a area specific section of the Fraser opened to bar fishing.
-
it's so weird to have the Fraser closed for Chinook while the saltwater guys have been hammering the crap out of them at the moth for the last few weeks!
Same fish!!!
-
I didn't read the link.
I agree there could and should be opportunities for us all to fish, I just don't agree with the event set for Sat. My choice, my view, we all have them.
-
Valid link does not mean a fishing forum where people can anonymously post 3rd hearsay. You made a statement "The FN have stated that if they see rec fishers out there (it doesn't matter what type of fishing, bar fishing, flossing, dip netting, grabbing fish with their dang hands) they will consider themselves open for netting. The reason the river isn't open to rec fishing is because DFO is being held hostage.
So where is a valid link where the above statements can be verified? Was this on the 6 pm news, read on a news or FN or DFO website or press release?
Can post anonymously and do are completely different. Maybe it was last year this happened but the threat was real and verified by numerous people on this site that are not anonymous. If such an ultimatum was made last year, you don't think that would affect decisions this year?
-
Rod, while I appreciate and respect all that you do for the fishing community in BC and the Fraser Valley, I respectfully disagree with you.
The FRSFA has attempted to be clever in calling this a "demonstration" fishery, but please let's call a spade a spade: It's a protest against regulations that the DFO has put in place that financially effects recreational anglers and guides. To the public, and myself, this protest fishery comes across as extremely childish and immature.
While I may not agree with some of the DFO regulations, there are certainly more refined and less adolescent ways of solving a problem than doing what you've been told not to do. Engage in dialogue, call your MP, call the DFO, write letters, be annoying as hell. And do it in great numbers. This is how you get change, not by throwing a tantrum.
There are many, many anglers out there who loosely follow the regulations, and are more or less uninformed. You know the type: unsure about the regs, only fishes in October, isn't sure if barbs are legal, can't distinguish salmon types, etc. There is nothing wrong with an occasional angler, however they can be naive. When an "occasional angler" hears about this protest fishery, what sort of message does that send? How is the average Joe-blow supposed to distinguish "good" and "bad" fishing regulations if some of them are openly disobeyed, and even supported by local guides and tackle shops? Do you suppose this kind of behaviour will lead to MORE regulation compliance, or LESS? My guess is the latter.
Those in positions of influence in the recreational fishing industry who support this protest are sending the wrong message to anglers, and it's a real shame this is happening.
-
Oh Rod how your tune has changed from a few weeks ago
Still discussing about leader length lol... If only you understand why the river really is closed.
There are lots of excellent fisheries around this province beside the Fraser to enjoy in the summer. My suggestion to all is to take advantage of those.
Someone calls out Fred, one of your sponsors of this site and all a sudden your pro fishing the Fraser while its close to salmon. I suppose you're right why don't we all go fish somewhere else then the lower mainland and support other fishing shops.
Currently, bar fishing is not illegal on the Fraser River, which is still open for steelhead, trout and char fishing (and retention of hatchery-marked fish).
Also it's still open to bottom bounce too, DFO need the MP's in Ottawa to amend the BC fishing ACT. As it was clearly stated in an earlier letter
"We appreciate that some anglers choose to fish selectively; however, where regulations are not in place, DFO Conservation and Protection (C&P) staff are unable to take enforcement action, and C&P must manage staff resources to ensure monitoring and enforcement of existing regulations is prioritized."
They have opened the river in the past and what happens? Fed sell bottom bouncing equipment, along with all the other shops as well. Not informing there customers about selective methods even after they all stood up front in the SFAB and told DFO that they could promote selective fishing methods. In fact earlier this season I was in a Sports Fishing Shop, someone came in bought hooks, wool and bouncing betties. The workers laughed after the customer left and were like " hahaha guess we know what he's doing with that"
DFO knows that bar fishing is a selective method, So who are they demonstrating it too? what the SFAB has always failed to do is insure people actually bar fish, or fish selectively.
Then what do they do once out on the river? they start fishing at midnight (fishing after dusk gets closed), Getting people to shuttle their limits home, leave garbage everywhere (laid law bar gets closed), Fighting with FN (citizen patrols, Chucking weights at them, picking FN nets ect..)
That being said I am pro the river being open right now for Chinook and Pink retention. No reason for it not to be while the salt is open. Also I am Pro this protest because people that fish the Fraser are getting the short end right now.
-
it's so weird to have the Fraser closed for Chinook while the saltwater guys have been hammering the crap out of them at the moth for the last few weeks!
Same fish!!!
actually the Albion test fishery has just come up to the historical average in the last few days:
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/fraser/docs/commercial/albionCHdailytotal-eng_files/ALBION2016%20mh%20edits(Oct26th)_18233_image002.png
..so it's a crock to claim that chinook numbers have been high enough to support a kill fishery for the last number of weeks.
-
Oh Rod how your tune has changed from a few weeks ago
The tune hasn't changed one bit. My point is still the same, expect to see less and less recreational fishing opportunities in the Lower Mainland in the years to come so people need to start exploring other opportunities in this province. We are losing opportunities due to stock decline, but for the most part the management approach has changed and recreational fishing sector is not in the managers' best interest. My time these days is limited so I no longer spend hours defending myself on platforms mainly participated by anonymous participants, so I'll leave it at that and you can do more research on what exactly has been done behind the scene that lead us to this.
Thanks cdjk123 and minnie-me, appreciate the different point of views. Whether you agree with those who are running the FRSA or not, I do encourage everyone to get involved by supporting the group, either become a member or bring your ideas to the group if you don't agree with them. Here is an opportunity for anyone who recreational fishes in the Fraser Valley to have a collective voice, take advantage of it.
-
Rod, while I appreciate and respect all that you do for the fishing community in BC and the Fraser Valley, I respectfully disagree with you.
The FRSFA has attempted to be clever in calling this a "demonstration" fishery, but please let's call a spade a spade: It's a protest against regulations that the DFO has put in place that financially effects recreational anglers and guides. To the public, and myself, this protest fishery comes across as extremely childish and immature.
While I may not agree with some of the DFO regulations, there are certainly more refined and less adolescent ways of solving a problem than doing what you've been told not to do. Engage in dialogue, call your MP, call the DFO, write letters, be annoying as hell. And do it in great numbers. This is how you get change, not by throwing a tantrum.
There are many, many anglers out there who loosely follow the regulations, and are more or less uninformed. You know the type: unsure about the regs, only fishes in October, isn't sure if barbs are legal, can't distinguish salmon types, etc. There is nothing wrong with an occasional angler, however they can be naive. When an "occasional angler" hears about this protest fishery, what sort of message does that send? How is the average Joe-blow supposed to distinguish "good" and "bad" fishing regulations if some of them are openly disobeyed, and even supported by local guides and tackle shops? Do you suppose this kind of behaviour will lead to MORE regulation compliance, or LESS? My guess is the latter.
Those in positions of influence in the recreational fishing industry who support this protest are sending the wrong message to anglers, and it's a real shame this is happening.
--It is one day...even the average Joe-blow should be able to distinguish the difference
-
Whether you agree with those who are running the FRSA or not, I do encourage everyone to get involved by supporting the group, either become a member or bring your ideas to the group if you don't agree with them. Here is an opportunity for anyone who recreational fishes in the Fraser Valley to have a collective voice, take advantage of it.
I sincerely doubt any member with opposing views to the FRSFA who joins that organisation will be met with reasonable and fair discourse. It's hardly a collective voice for all anglers when the FRSPA is so slanted and opinionated, especially in this particular issue. However, I'm sure they will be welcoming to those who agree with them
-
I sincerely doubt any member with opposing views to the FRSFA who joins that organisation will be met with reasonable and fair discourse. It's hardly a collective voice for all anglers when the FRSPA is so slanted and opinionated, especially in this particular issue. However, I'm sure they will be welcoming to those who agree with them
You never know until you try it. ;)
-
RalphH,
I wasn't suggesting with my post that the Chinook numbers justified an opening on the Fraser!
I was just commenting that it's weird that DFO allows Chinook to be caught at the mouth of the river and it's closed for Chinook retention in the river.
if there was a concern with low numbers why don't they close the approach areas too?
-
Looks like the demonstration fishery wll happen as the river is not anticipated to be open.
http://notices.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=200244&ID=all
"The Department is receiving questions regarding the possibility of recreational
fishery openings for chinook and/or pink salmon in the Fraser River. At this
time management measures in place are aimed at limiting impacts on Fraser
sockeye while allowing First Nations food, social and ceremonial fisheries,
directed on other species, to occur. Recreational fisheries for salmon in the
Fraser River are not anticipated to open in advance of the upcoming Labour Day
weekend. DFO will continue to monitor the migration of sockeye through the
marine areas and the Fraser River and will consider an opening for pink salmon
when it is determined that impacts of an in-river recreational fishery would be
minimal for sockeye. As Late Run sockeye can demonstrate holding behaviour in
the lower river and off the river mouth, such an opportunity is likely not to
occur in the immediate future. Due to significantly reduced FSC harvest for
First Nations this year, with very low harvests of both sockeye and chinook to
date, DFO is not considering opening additional recreational chinook fisheries
in the river at this time to provide for priority access for First Nations FSC
fisheries. For information on current recreational fishery opportunities for
chinook in other areas please see the Department's web-site at:
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/index-eng.html "
-
bottom line is that the First Nations have told DFO that if they open the Fraser for rec. fishing they will start taking Sockeye!
DFO is being held hostage by First Nations due to our federal government's "hands off " approach with the First Nations!
-
bottom line is that the First Nations have told DFO that if they open the Fraser for rec. fishing they will start taking Sockeye!
DFO is being held hostage by First Nations due to our federal government's "hands off " approach with the First Nations!
You connected?
-
bottom line is that the First Nations have told DFO that if they open the Fraser for rec. fishing they will start taking Sockeye!
DFO is being held hostage by First Nations due to our federal government's "hands off " approach with the First Nations!
If this is true then that's well played by the First Nations.
Looks to be an interesting stand-off. Looks like First Nations has had enough of the mismanagement of the resource and have decided F/N will decide what's going to happen now.
Should get interesting. Maybe a protest is being planned to protest the protest?
Like everyone else, I wish there was a simple solution. If there was a simple solution there wouldn't be this problem.
-
bottom line is that the First Nations have told DFO that if they open the Fraser for rec. fishing they will start taking Sockeye!
DFO is being held hostage by First Nations due to our federal government's "hands off " approach with the First Nations!
So true. Too add, DFO/GOV is very afraid of FNs since the 1990s and the Oka issue. Ever since then, Gov handles FNs issues with kid gloves. But lets not get off topic here............This thread could go south very fast.
-
Oka has next to nothing to do with it. People seem to forget we has Gustafsen Lake here in BC. That has little to do with it.
What has to do with it is the spankings the Federal Government has gotten when they forced these issues into Federal Court and made the courts decide when they could have gotten better and more flexible deals if agreements had been negotiated with the FNs.
-
Thanks Rod for you well thought out posts on this very complex issue.
-
http://www.theprogress.com/news/demonstration-fishery-saturday-near-chilliwack-to-demand-fraser-river-opening/
-
Like everyone else, I wish there was a simple solution. If there was a simple solution there wouldn't be this problem.
Oh, but there is, Rieber, there is.
Let FNs manage all salmon fisheries. Let them do the research, conduct counts, and let them issue commercial and recreational licenses and quotas, keeping the proceedings to invest into better managing of the resources. They did it quite successfully for centuries before European conquerors arrived and messed things up.
-
Oh, but there is, Rieber, there is.
Let FNs manage all salmon fisheries. Let them do the research, conduct counts, and let them issue commercial and recreational licenses and quotas, keeping the proceedings to invest into better managing of the resources. They did it quite successfully for centuries before European conquerors arrived and messed things up.
No way. You can't have one user group have controlling monopoly over this resource. I do believe FN need to be well represented on the Management Committee. We assume FN did a good job managing this resource before Whiite invading immagrants made the mess we're in now, but that were a lot less people and a lot more fish and a ton less civilized destruction of North America.
-
Oh, but there is, Rieber, there is.
Let FNs manage all salmon fisheries. Let them do the research, conduct counts, and let them issue commercial and recreational licenses and quotas, keeping the proceedings to invest into better managing of the resources. They did it quite successfully for centuries before European conquerors arrived and messed things up.
This isn't that outlandish of an idea. The Quinalt river on Washington's coast is managed in such a way. In order to fish, anglers must be accompanied by a tribal "guide". The Quinalt does have one of the best steelhead harvest fisheries in Washington, but I don't know how it's salmon runs are doing. The biggest problem with this type of system is the angling licenses are likely to be priced out of range for most anglers - it would begin to look like the systems in place in European countries where you purchase rights to fish a river from the land owner. Also, I think it would put all non-FN guides out of business.
-
This isn't that outlandish of an idea. The Quinalt river on Washington's coast is managed in such a way. In order to fish, anglers must be accompanied by a tribal "guide". The Quinalt does have one of the best steelhead harvest fisheries in Washington, but I don't know how it's salmon runs are doing. The biggest problem with this type of system is the angling licenses are likely to be priced out of range for most anglers - it would begin to look like the systems in place in European countries where you purchase rights to fish a river from the land owner. Also, I think it would put all non-FN guides out of business.
Two very different water systems and user groups. The Fraser River is an Industrial and Commercial use river. FN will never be afforded the management rights of the Fraser River system. Cash is thicker than blood - Industry and Commercial opportunities to exploit natural resources will not be stopped until they simply run out. We're seeing some minor adjustments made as Resources are diminished but we will not see a real correction in out lifetime - not in the next generations lifetime.
Salmon stocks have dropped below critical mass and there just isn't enough salmon left to annually sustain, never mind overcome, the depletion. There are too many factors that would need to be corrected. I'm confident we'll see some corrections and cyclic recovery but this will likely be just natural cycles in salmon stock numbers. God, I hope I'm wrong. :(
Serious efforts to correct this problem won't be afforded until there is no more money to be made.
I'm sad that I've become so cynical but management efforts came too late and without enough impact.
-
Count me in. Thanx Rod for the clarification.
-
Curious to see the results of the recorded catch for this demonstration fishery. It's baffling that he DFO hasn't implemented specific methods of fishing and times of year for those methods. Probably would have reduced some of the wild fluxuations between some of those returns that are a fraction of their spawning year return. Then again, that's more likely a factor of habitat, weather, ocean conditions, and commercial fisheries. Opening on the Labour Day weekend makes a lot of sense for the rec sector trying to enjoy one last weekend of the summer before kids go back to school.
-
Oh, but there is, Rieber, there is.
Let FNs manage all salmon fisheries. Let them do the research, conduct counts, and let them issue commercial and recreational licenses and quotas, keeping the proceedings to invest into better managing of the resources. They did it quite successfully for centuries before European conquerors arrived and messed things up.
I cannot tell if you are serious. As I said in another thread, there is even more discord among First Nations then there is among people on this Forum. The simple Fact of the matter if that there is probably more people in Surrey alone then there was in all of BC at any given point pre-contact. Combined with countless kms of untouched spawning grounds the First Nations did no nothing to manage salmon, they didn't have to. (yet there was still lean years) Simply put, the DFO needs to step up the plate in all regards, do their jobs and put salmon First. The one constant that every court decision has agreed upon since the beginning is that conservation trumps everything. Selective Fishing techniques are quite easy to obtain no matter the group if only it was enforced.
But back to the topic at hand, this is not an illegal fishery. I have seen several people target Sturgeon with Bar rigs and be successful, though roe works better than a spin and glo. Many other ethnicities make delicious soups out of Pike minnow, white fish and other course fish that some find unpalatable. If a salmon is caught by chance then so be it, but they are not breaking the law in anyway and more sportfishing opportunities will only enhance the public interest. That is a good thing. I will not be attending as I will be at a funeral in Prince George that day, but think I may head down towards Fort Langley tomorrow and see up from the apple trees is still producing.
-
If this is true then that's well played by the First Nations.
Looks to be an interesting stand-off. Looks like First Nations has had enough of the mismanagement of the resource and have decided F/N will decide what's going to happen now.
Let's not paint the kettle black....First Nations share in the mismanagement of this fishery. I don't know how many times in past years where I've witnessed FN's netting and discarding mortally wounded male salmon because they were only after roe, this especially true when harvesting chum. Selling of there catch (illegally) even when there were closures....very unceremoniously and total self indulgence of their special privileges.
True conservation and legitimate concerns over a species' survival, does not allow political correctness to take precedence. Any arguments opposing that idea is nothing more than self serving and mute.
-
Let's not paint the kettle black....First Nations share in the mismanagement of this fishery. I don't know how many times in past years where I've witnessed FN's netting and discarding mortally wounded male salmon because they were only after roe, this especially true when harvesting chum. Selling of there catch (illegally) even when there were closures....very unceremoniously and total self indulgence of their special privileges.
True conservation and legitimate concerns over a species' survival, does not allow political correctness to take precedence. Any arguments opposing that idea is nothing more than self serving and mute.
I believe you are absolutely correct. In order for the FN (species) to survive, they need their supply of Salmon. They need to take advantage of their Treaty and be given the right to manage what they have legally negotiated and been granted. If that means selling some of their harvest to purchase other items needed for their survival then so be it.
The culling of a fish catch is no different than brush piles at a logging site landing. No different than the tailings at a mine site - these are all spoils of harvesting a resource. Yes the FN have found an opportunity for selling roe from Pink or Chum salmon and at that stage of the spawn cycle, the males have little food value. But be certain that the critical mass of returning salmon would have gone through the system and that cycles required return number would have been approximately met.
You are 100% correct, I can't argue or oppose that idea. FN definitely hold a share in the mismanagement and they will need to hold a bigger share in the recovery of this resource. You can point a finger of blame at FN, but in your hand of judgment, you also hold at least three fingers pointing at yourself and others behind you. BlydRnr - when I use the term "you", I don't mean you literally. "You", in this case, is everyone other than FN and that includes me - I used to blame FN 100% - I was wrong.
It's good that we can blame whomever we want. That means there is still something worth fighting for. There is still a hope of recovery. Once the salmon are gone, there is no point blaming anyone because it won't matter any more - once the salmon are gone, they're gone.
So who's going to catch the last Salmon?
-
I cannot tell if you are serious. As I said in another thread, there is even more discord among First Nations then there is among people on this Forum.
You know this is an apples and oranges comparison. How many people regularly post on this forum? A few dozen? The BC population of FN people approaches a quarter million.
The simple Fact of the matter if that there is probably more people in Surrey alone then there was in all of BC at any given point at contact
The population of Surrey today probably exceeds the population of every European city at contact so again what point are you making with such pointless analogies?
So who's going to catch the last Salmon?
Me, I won the lottery. The rest of you have to stay home now.
-
You know this is an apples and oranges comparison. How many people regularly post on this forum? A few dozen? The BC population of FN people approaches a quarter million.
The population of Surrey today probably exceeds the population of every European city at contact so again what point are you making with such pointless analogies?
Me, I won the lottery. The rest of you have to stay home now.
It is not a false analogy when someone claims that before contact First Nations "managed" salmon stocks efficiently. Simply put, the lower population and very limited industrialization meant that First Nations of the time were incapable of decimating salmon stocks. Things have changed. To give one First Nations control over the already dwindling population would do nothing to stop the decline. I do not think over fishing is what has killed salmon. I believe it is the massive urbanization of there spawning streams, the pollutants going into the river, the destruction of ocean habitat (eel grass, kelp, food). I do believe that over fishing will be the death knell but that sport fishers don't legally have that ability. Non selective fishing methods running all day and night on the other hand...
Ralph, I appreciate your commitment and strong beliefs. We may disagree on some things but over all we want the same thing. Send me a pic of the last salmon! Hope its a doozy!
-
Ralph, I appreciate your commitment and strong beliefs. We may disagree on some things but over all we want the same thing. Send me a pic of the last salmon! Hope its a doozy!
And that is how you disagree, with class :)
-
It is not a false analogy when someone claims that before contact First Nations "managed" salmon stocks efficiently. Simply put, the lower population and very limited industrialization meant that First Nations of the time were incapable of decimating salmon stocks. Things have changed. To give one First Nations control over the already dwindling population would do nothing to stop the decline. I do not think over fishing is what has killed salmon. I believe it is the massive urbanization of there spawning streams, the pollutants going into the river, the destruction of ocean habitat (eel grass, kelp, food). I do believe that over fishing will be the death knell but that sport fishers don't legally have that ability. Non selective fishing methods running all day and night on the other hand...
Ralph, I appreciate your commitment and strong beliefs. We may disagree on some things but over all we want the same thing. Send me a pic of the last salmon! Hope its a doozy!
Ok and you know this how?
be honest, you are making an assumption.
In some circumstances they were quite able to decimate a salmon stock however they had powerful social conventions that tended to prevent it.
-
Ok and you know this how?
be honest, you are making an assumption.
In some circumstances they were quite able to decimate a salmon stock however they had powerful social conventions that tended to prevent it.
I could be mistaken, but I believe you mistaking my use of the word "stock" for "runs". It was quite possible for certain runs in some streams to be destroyed, and I am sure they were! Heck, mother nature does it all the time. But for the entire stock (ie almost every single river, stream, and creek that contained salmon in the province) to be negatively to some degree as is the case today would require modern equipment, chemicals, and the increased population. That is what we are talking about today, the complete collapse of pacific salmon as whole.
Social constructs had nothing to do with it. Unless First Nations in BC are extremely unique from the their neighbours to North, East, and South (as well as similar civilizations around the world) and showed such remarkable restraint to only take enough to get themselves through to the next Spring Equinox and the return of the Chinook they would take as many salmon as the could possibly preserve and store. This is not a social structure, this is basic survival. The same as First Nations in Washington, Oregon, Alaska, and the Yukon openly admit and are proud of as it allowed them to survive the low return years, extreme fire seasons, blizzards in May, and everything else. No species will allow itself to starve so that another may survive. Humans included, no matter how altruistic some claim to be.
But this thread is about the Protest Fishery. I will not be responding again unless there is anything I feel I can add to that topic.
-
Fair enough, but you brought it up. Much of what you are saying regarding FN people in BC, particularly at or before contact seems based on a lack of knowledge and a lot of assumptions. As for me, I have a university level academic background in subject. Their societies were very sophisticated and very close to the early societies of the middle east that we like to call 'civilized'. In certain respects they had a better life than the average person in ancient Sumeria or Egypt.
Cheers
-
So sad that it has come down to this, but with Salmon stocks so low there are no easy answers. Unless meaningful solutions are put forward to deal with dwindling Salmon stocks, it will be very hard to reverse this downward spiral in the future.
-
So as of tomorrow, you can fish for pinks in the S Thompson. As well chinooks are open in the S. Thompson...........The closer to sports fishing for both these species on the Fraser due to low numbers is a giant crock of crap.
-
So as of tomorrow, you can fish for pinks in the S Thompson. As well chinooks are open in the S. Thompson...........The closer to sports fishing for both these species on the Fraser due to low numbers is a giant crock of crap.
Because people cannot catch many there:)
-
I think the problem is if they open the river to recreational pink fishing, they will have to open it for commercial fishing too. FN ceremonial comes first, then they allow rec/comm at the same time.
While the rec sector can take tens of thousands of pinks, commercial fishing can take a few hundred thousand.
I'm not sure if they can allow rec fishing without opening the comm fishing.
-
they have done it before. I think an opening for the lower Fraser has to wait for the PSC meeting either this afternoon or tomorrow. Still we may have to wait past the weekend.
-
I'm not sure if they can allow rec fishing without opening the comm fishing.
I think they did in 2015. I recall there was some small pilot/test commercial opening but went poorly so that was it for the commies while the recs got a later opening. Memory's a bit vague so I'm sure someone will clarify the details if I'm wrong.
Logically though even a limited sport opening could have significant benefit for that sector. Theoretically even a short opening of the Fraser with a limit of one pink would allow lots of people to go out and get some benefit from the fishery but the total harvest would be like a rounding error as far as a potential commercial take is concerned.
-
Logically though even a limited sport opening could have significant benefit for that sector. Theoretically even a short opening of the Fraser with a limit of one pink would allow lots of people to go out and get some benefit from the fishery but the total harvest would be like a rounding error as far as a potential commercial take is concerned.
wholeheartedly agree with this statement.
with selective methods of course.
-
Salmon are dieng out. Why doesn't the government invest in a few more hatcheries Wouldn't that help ? Why not stick a couple on the Fraser river. Dump a few 100k chums pinks and socks. It's seams everyone just wants to point fingers. Yes we all f-ed up over fished But now is the time to plan a head sure its costs money but if the fish stop coming home a lot of money is lost anyways sorry if I went off topic but it's crazy fighting amongst each other over a bigger situation! If you build them the fish will come back. And why can't hatcherys release a few smolts in the river reds so they can create a kinda wild fish again.
-
I think they did in 2015. I recall there was some small pilot/test commercial opening but went poorly so that was it for the commies while the recs got a later opening. Memory's a bit vague so I'm sure someone will clarify the details if I'm wrong.
Logically though even a limited sport opening could have significant benefit for that sector. Theoretically even a short opening of the Fraser with a limit of one pink would allow lots of people to go out and get some benefit from the fishery but the total harvest would be like a rounding error as far as a potential commercial take is concerned.
X3. Opening tidal Fraser for 1 pink wouldn't do any harm to the sockeye stocks. Thousands of sockeyes and pinks die from other user groups including the test nets. These can do harm so much more to the sockeye/pink stock. Just close down some of those darn test nets for a day and the number of sockeyes and pinks saved for brood stock will be more than anything the tidal pink fishery with lure fishing can do harm to these species in a season. DFO and its head honchos are just a bunch of stubborn idiots functioning without any regards to the recreational fishery and without true stats or science to back up their claim that allowing sporties to fish for pink, even chinook, will damage the stock survival of sockeye.
-
Hatcheries have had diminishing returns for a number of year, Ocean survival rates from 10% down to 1-2%. Seems to me they might not be doing anything if fish are starving at sea.
Arnt chum suppose to have another huge return this year see no sense in having more of thoes.
-
I believe you are absolutely correct. In order for the FN (species) to survive, they need their supply of Salmon.
Last time I checked, I didn't see a sign at Superstore banning the natives.
-
Last time I checked, I didn't see a sign at Superstore banning the natives.
Why would Natives be banned in a Superstore. Cripes man - lose the hate.
FN will use what amount they need to feed their families and then they need to sell the rest to buy other foods. Are you seriously thinking FN only eat fish?
Who says native caught fish don't go to the supermarkets? I don't know the legalities of that and it doesn't matter to me if it did end up in stores as long as it was all legal and food safe.
One of the skills our local FN is that they definitely know how to fish. Why wouldn't anyone not want to see FN gt the chance to be more self sufficient? Did European invaders that "founded" Canada not already do enough the f-up these people?
It only took 150 years to virtually destroy the salmon and we're still not satisfied, we're going to keep going until the people who depend on the salmon for existence are also gone.
Help people overcome hurdles - don't put up the road blocks.
-
I thought chums were almost gone but why could you ever have to many returning more eggs mores big guys later on .ya hatcherys are producing less but is that because of funding or lack of returns. Or both I still think fighting here won't accomplish anything turn that anger into conservation and education Blaming everyone else for the the whole of our doing is stupid keep racist stuff out of it that's the problem with forums they get side tracked Attend a meeting if you can and have a response to there comments a friendly one. Keep the hate at home Maybe just maybe someone will listen. The chances are about the same as the % of the returns we are not getting anymore if that makes any sense !!! We as the people have the power it just needs to be focused in a direction.
-
In order for the FN (species) to survive, they need their supply of Salmon. They need to take advantage of their Treaty and be given the right to manage what they have legally negotiated and been granted. If that means selling some of their harvest to purchase other items needed for their survival then so be it.
Please tell me this was a tongue in cheek comment like satire because last I checked FN's have access to the same resources as everybody else. As far as blame, I'm not directing my point solely to demean their rights, I just found it humorous that you made them out to look like the model of true conservationists with unblemished hands.
I respect their treaty, I just don't believe they (I'm not saying all) need to hide behind a veil of deceit to conduct in activities that misconstrued what their treaty was originally designed for...but you are right, once the salmon is gone it won't matter much to whom the rights belong to...I just hope First Nations don't die out due to the lack of this food source that's so vital for their very survival... ::)
-
Last time I checked, I didn't see a sign at Superstore banning the natives.
Please tell me this was a tongue in cheek comment like satire because last I checked FN's have access to the same resources as everybody else. As far as blame, I'm not directing my point solely to demean their rights, I just found it humorous that you made them out to look like the model of true conservationists with unblemished hands.
It's not so simple. Almost without exception, FNs have a very different metabolic system from Europeans and Asians. What is food for us is often literally poison for them. Their bodies cannot handle processed foods and additives the way ours can. They get obese and sick much faster than caucasians and Asians do. It's getting bad for us, too, but that's another story.
FNs don't do well getting their essential nutrition from grocery stores. They need their wild fish, their game, their traditional way of harvesting and preparing food in order to be healthy and thrive. For centuries now, the white man has been denying them that, imposing upon them a lifestyle that does nothing but kill them off slowly.
And that is WRONG. Wrap your mind around that concept. WRONG.
While you and I don't NEED our wild salmon for existential purposes, our native brethren do.
Educate yourself. Read this paper, it contains in a few short pages everything you should know about Natives' lifestyle, metabolism, nutrition and such. And about the horrendous impact that your ancestors have had on those good people.
1828_NCCAH_mini_diets_health_final.pdf
-
Please tell me this was a tongue in cheek comment like satire because last I checked FN's have access to the same resources as everybody else. As far as blame, I'm not directing my point solely to demean their rights, I just found it humorous that you made them out to look like the model of true conservationists with unblemished hands.
I respect their treaty, I just don't believe they (I'm not saying all) need to hide behind a veil of deceit to conduct in activities that misconstrued what their treaty was originally designed for...but you are right, once the salmon is gone it won't matter much to whom the rights belong to...I just hope First Nations don't die out due to the lack of this food source that's so vital for their very survival... ::)
Oh the FN know they don't have unblemished hands - I've never hear that from anyone ever. But I know what you meant, I come across as pro FN in this case.
The FN don't need to hide behind a veil of deceit but history has shown that the mob mentality and the outnumbered abuse dished out on the river is not very welcoming to the FN. While FN have been drifting, people on the bars are seen launching BBetties, stones, sticks literally anything that can be thrown at them. Why? Because we're greedy and mob bullies. Heck, I've seen it downright dangerous for FN to be out there around some of our social white fishermen. So what do some natives do - they drift at night or pull their nets very early in the mornings to avoid interactions with our ding-dong white super fishermen. Damn sickening. Now come on, there is some great interactions between FN and white fishermen and that needs to keep improving.
Elders know they have some young radical fishermen that are a little too aggressive. It's not a perfect world and as humans we can become a little unstable at times.
Hey , I've been pissed myself at FN drifters damn near wiping me off my feet with their drift net. Stupid on me because I seen them coming but I wanted to catch that last salmon. Funny how I know better than stepping in front of a moving vehicle yet I was somehow going to (in my mind) withstand the effects of a loaded drift net in the water. One more second and that would have ended poorly for me - and it would have been my own stubborn stupidity that would have done me in.
Anyways, we're all frustrated there are no fish and no openings. Maybe the timing of the demonstration will magically create an opening for the Rec. fishermen. Oh ya - it will surely be because of a demonstration fishing mob. Keep telling yourselves that, you almost have people convinced. And that's okay if you truly believe this is the answer - I don't believe it is - that's all.
Enjoy the outing, it's looking like its going to be a beautiful day to be on the river. I'll either be at work or hopefully on a lake.
-
Anyways, we're all frustrated there are no fish and no openings. Maybe the timing of the demonstration will magically create an opening for the Rec. fishermen. Oh ya - it will surely be because of a demonstration fishing mob. Keep telling yourselves that, you almost have people convinced. And that's okay if you truly believe this is the answer - I don't believe it is - that's all.
Next PSC meeting is on Tuesday, so you would think the earliest opening would be on Wednesday, September 6th. :(
-
The FN don't need to hide behind a veil of deceit but history has shown that the mob mentality and the outnumbered abuse dished out on the river is not very welcoming to the FN. While FN have been drifting, people on the bars are seen launching BBetties, stones, sticks literally anything that can be thrown at them. Why? Because we're greedy and mob bullies. Heck, I've seen it downright dangerous for FN to be out there around some of our social white fishermen. So what do some natives do - they drift at night or pull their nets very early in the mornings to avoid interactions with our ding-dong white super fishermen. Damn sickening. Now come on, there is some great interactions between FN and white fishermen and that needs to keep improving.
The only way to improve the interaction is by giving equal rights to everyone. Equal rights to healthy foods, medical care, education, etc. Dividing people into First Nations and 'the rest of us' doesn't help improving the 'interactions'. Treating everyone respectfully and equally does. BTW, as a white person I feel deeply offended by your implied suggestions.
-
It's not so simple. Almost without exception, FNs have a very different metabolic system from Europeans and Asians. What is food for us is often literally poison for them. Their bodies cannot handle processed foods and additives the way ours can. They get obese and sick much faster than caucasians and Asians do. It's getting bad for us, too, but that's another story.
FNs don't do well getting their essential nutrition from grocery stores. They need their wild fish, their game, their traditional way of harvesting and preparing food in order to be healthy and thrive. For centuries now, the white man has been denying them that, imposing upon them a lifestyle that does nothing but kill them off slowly.
And that is WRONG. Wrap your mind around that concept. WRONG.
While you and I don't NEED our wild salmon for existential purposes, our native brethren do.
Educate yourself. Read this paper, it contains in a few short pages everything you should know about Natives' lifestyle, metabolism, nutrition and such. And about the horrendous impact that your ancestors have had on those good people.
1828_NCCAH_mini_diets_health_final.pdf
I'm all for having them eat whatever is necessary to sustain their nutritional needs, I'm merely stating they don't always use their privileges for the sake of self preservation. In fact, they use these privileges to create loop holes in the regulations which any other groups or people are bound by and held accountable....for the sake of commercial venture not ceremonial or food source. It's an unfair practice that under minds a level playing field in which the only real losers are the declining salmon stock. A practice that has nothing to do with FN culture or heritage.
-
Next PSC meeting is on Tuesday, so you would think the earliest opening would be on Wednesday, September 6th. :(
Yes, I think we'll see a small opening mid week. Sadly the window is rapidly closing from the other end with wild Coho soon to hit the system.
Rec fishers will see a little window and then commercials will get their opening just ahead of the weekend and that will shut the supply of salmon and the Rec fisher will still have their opening but the salmon run will have been all collected downstream of the anglers. FN will continue sweeping up the remainder of the salmon that manage to trickle through.
Then the Coho enter the system and Rec and Commercial fishing is closed and the FN will still be able to selective harvest for roe.
So wipe the dust off those reels and oil up the worm gears the opening will be announced right after the long weekend.
-
Please tell me this was a tongue in cheek comment like satire because last I checked FN's have access to the same resources as everybody else.
they do not.
Legally they have the same access. Socially & culturally they do not.
-
I wonder if the demonstrators will be wearing leather fishing vests with the big round embroidery on the back saying " Taking Back the Fraser - One Salmon at a time"
Or maybe "One Bar - One Way"
;D Now, I'm just being cheeky.
-
It's not so simple. Almost without exception, FNs have a very different metabolic system from Europeans and Asians. What is food for us is often literally poison for them. Their bodies cannot handle processed foods and additives the way ours can. They get obese and sick much faster than caucasians and Asians do. It's getting bad for us, too, but that's another story.
FNs don't do well getting their essential nutrition from grocery stores. They need their wild fish, their game, their traditional way of harvesting and preparing food in order to be healthy and thrive. For centuries now, the white man has been denying them that, imposing upon them a lifestyle that does nothing but kill them off slowly.
And that is WRONG. Wrap your mind around that concept. WRONG.
While you and I don't NEED our wild salmon for existential purposes, our native brethren do.
Educate yourself. Read this paper, it contains in a few short pages everything you should know about Natives' lifestyle, metabolism, nutrition and such. And about the horrendous impact that your ancestors have had on those good people.
1828_NCCAH_mini_diets_health_final.pdf
Is funny that the First Nations people I know eat the exact same foods as I do.
Im calling BS on this one.
-
So the Japanese will die off without whales?
-
So the Japanese will die off without whales?
That's a strange question. Are the Japanese harvesting whales in the Fraser?
-
This discussion is getting sidetracked a little bit but that's expected. Rather than focusing on what First Nations should or shouldn't do, perhaps lets look at what the angling community hopes to achieve on Saturday.
Whether you see tomorrow's event as a demonstration or a protest, lets be clear that participants will not be taking part in anything illegal. Fred and other FRSA directors have communicated with the officers at DFO's C&P, to ensure that and also to let them know what they can expect from the event. This isn't just about a bunch of angry individuals going out and doing anything to get a rise out of the authority, far from that because it'd be counter-productive. Everyone who shows up at Island 22 at 8:30am will have to register before going out. Few things are expected to be accomplished:
FRSA wants all fish that are caught, released or legally retained, recorded so at the end of the day there is some data to demonstrate that selective methods can be used by the angling community to specifically target species that can and should be open for fishing. This collection is long overdue as we have been asking Fisheries and Oceans Canada to do so for years.
The event will also show that the regulations need to be improved. As of now, not just tomorrow, but the whole summer, you can freely head down to the non-tidal Fraser and bar fish, and when asked you simply have to say you're bar fishing for steelhead, trout or char. You can head down to the tidal Fraser River, spincast a lure with a light outfit, or bottom fish with roe, and when asked you simply have to say you are targeting northern pikeminnow, bull trout and cutthroat trout. Majority of us are not doing that, because we've chosen not to make this management harder when closed salmon species are moving through. At some point that restraint and patience will run out when another user group continues to be allowed to harvest while the anglers sit on the sideline.
You don't have to fish tomorrow when participate in the event. FRSA directors won't pretend to know all the solutions and they don't, so this is an opportunity to provide your inputs and ideas.
Some may suggest that an event like this would just further escalate and create conflicts, but I think if the current management approach continues, conflicts will be expected at some point when one user group continues to be given access while the other is ignored. Rather than shutting down all recreational salmon fishing opportunities to minimize conflicts on the water with First Nations, there have to be better communications. This should not about denying First Nations' rights to harvest, it should be about the push for better management by those who are in charge in this area.
The socio-economic impacts from these closures cannot be neglected. This summer's freshwater fishing licence sales have been the lowest in the past decade due to Region 2 fishing closures, and fires in Regions 3 and 5. You may not be affected financially by it, but there are plenty of businesses in the Fraser Valley that are, so that's where we are at now.
-
Sounds good. Thank you Rodney.
-
Is funny that the First Nations people I know eat the exact same foods as I do.
Im calling BS on this one.
You can call BS all you want - you obviously didn't even read the document I linked.
Besides, if they eat exactly the same foods you eat, they are probably overweight and diabetic. ::)
So the Japanese will die off without whales?
Whale meat is not nearly as important a staple in the Japanese diet as salmon is in FN's.
-
This thread was about: Recreational Fishermen protesting the Closure of the Fraser river.
Stake holders: Recreational, FN & Commercial Fisheries (associated groups, lobbies, businesses)
Geographical location of focus: Fraser River
Policy & Management Groups: DFO, FN, Canadian Federal, Provincial & Municipal Governments
It (the Thread) now references in "one way or another":
- Eugenics
- DNA gene sequencing
- Extreme Views of the "Alt right / Alt Left"
- Separatist Ideology
- Discrimination
- Race Baiting
- Reparations
- Politically Correct Jargon
- Historical Inaccuracy
- Climate Change Debates
*Hopefully someone will discuss how "Alien Abductions" could factor into the situation. We should also not forget about the impact that "Sasquatch (Bigfoot)" populations have been making
That's really good. This topic stayed at the top for its duration since being created. Nearing 5000 views. People are well aware of the demonstration and we got a good idea on where people stand on this topic.
I hope the demonstration proves to be effective, safe and enjoyed by all that attend. I think it would have been good it was able to be seen by public from the roadyways somehow but that's not possible.
Hopefully there will be footage via drone.
Hopefully there are no Sockeye caught on the bar rigs or any sockeye that show up downstream belly up. Yes, I know the odds of that happening are extremely low.
Lots of water, portable shade and sunscreen - it's going to be a hot one.
-
Do we have exact fish numbers taken by FN,Commercial, and recreational in past, say 5 or 10 years?
-
Do we have exact fish numbers taken by FN,Commercial, and recreational in past, say 5 or 10 years?
there are some reliable numbers for FN and commercial fisheries. No one has a clue for the rec sector.
-
Here is a commercial one . You may have to dig a little deeper to find any other stats.
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Fos2_Internet/commercialSM/salmonCatchStats.cfm?year=2017
-
Fred has written a letter to the Minister Dominic Leblanc of Fisheries, Oceans, and the Canadian Coast Guard on the eve of tomorrow's demonstration fishery organized by the Fraser River SportFishing Alliance.
Dear Minister
It is in an act of desperation that I seek your assistance with improving how fisheries are managed in the Fraser Valley, mainly the Fraser River and the precious Salmon resources that provide huge economic and social value to our community.
I was born in 1955 and raised on the banks of the Fraser River in the Chilliwack area. I have dedicated my entire life to the fishing community in every possible way. My passion and commitment for this priceless resource has been well documented for over forty five years. My business established in 1978 includes retail fishing tackle and guided fishing trips. My priority however has been to the community, our staff, friends, family and our clients. The collective commitment has been to the fish, conservation and a sustainable future. Without the fish, all of this is lost and this would be such a preventable demise to a multi million dollar industry.
Over the years, runs of salmon have diminished in drastic ways and opportunity to fishers and users have been reduced to historic low levels. Some years are better than others but the facts suggest we are trending towards disaster in the immediate future as we witness this year becoming a serious reality check. It must be recognized that the environment is changing quickly and we need to change with that reality. The demands on the resource are out growing the returns with sustainability being a legitimate question.
It is time to bring positive, progressive, collective and co-operative efforts to the table. There is an organization called the Fraser River Sportfishing Alliance that is working hard to include the knowledge and leadership from our industry, our communities and all users of the resource. We are over due in developing a resourceful, respectful and effective strategy to help government work towards realistic goals and sustainable fisheries for the future. We need accountability from everyone if we want to change where fisheries are headed.
It is obvious that the recreational sector that is dependant on opportunity is being neglected to the point of being insulting. The economic and social hardships need to be understood, respected and not underplayed. Conservation has to be the number one priority and everyone agrees on this. The issue is that opportunity has to be handled in a fair and equitable manner. First Nations have a priority access in the constitution and in law and that is understood and respected. The frustration comes from the lack of communication and effort that is given to recreational Fraser River fisheries and the rational the does not allow for catch and release and or other species to be targeted. There are ways to address the concerns by DFO that have been suggested over the years but unfortunately the department has ignored or undermined the process. It is clear that they default to a simple closure as it is a easy and cheap way out. This has to change immediately.
A big concern is enforcement levels and funding. The officers are doing a tough job and deserve support especially when conservation concerns are in place. Monitoring has to be stepped up to ensure all the rules are followed and law breakers are made accountable with severe consequences. It is time to reward good behaviour and punish the bad behaviour that often is overlooked as if it does not exist.
A campaign to resolve issues needs to include recreational anglers that are participating in the fisheries. Anglers desperately need to be involved as part of solutions to protecting our priceless heritage for future generations. The social and economic losses are astronomical and has to be considered before it is too late.
Please open the door of opportunity to include a team of dedicated and knowledgable people with forward and inclusive thinking in a time of crisis. Governments role in bringing this team together is a priority and your assistance is requested.
The FRSA is looking for a positive and effective change in dealing with the serious challenges that face us in today's changing world. Lets work together and remove the hurdles that stall and complicate the issues. Lets bring creative and positive efforts to resolving and fixing the troubled waters.
Yours truly,
Fred Helmer
Owner Freds Custom Tackle
Co-chair Fraser River Sportfishing Alliance
-
Here is a commercial one . You may have to dig a little deeper to find any other stats.
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Fos2_Internet/commercialSM/salmonCatchStats.cfm?year=2017
FN reports for the Fraser: http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/fraser/abor-autoc-eng.html
-
Chris, Fred's letter is well written - thank you for sharing.
Have you ever seen positive or constructive responses to these letter from the Ministry?
-
Chris, Fred's letter is well written - thank you for sharing.
Have you ever seen positive or constructive responses to these letter from the Ministry?
Not that I have heard but was away on a road trip the last 4 days.
-
From the organizers
Some key points & messages:
We officially support the demo fishery at one location only (back end of Wellington)
We have no influence or control of what happens on balance of river
We closely monitor fishery at Wellington (C&R Bar fishing only fish kept in the water)
We cooperate with First Nations if in area.
We are not targeting any species
WE ARE DEMONSTRATING THAT WE CAN FISH TRULY SELECTIVELY FOR OTHER SPECIES & AVOID SOCKEYE (This is key message & intent of the fishery)
Refer media questions to spokespeople (Fred or Rod)
We will ensure we have people at both Wellington & Island 22 to provide control & directions
All participants will be given info sheet for recording & brochure. They must understand rules of the day.
If asked by DFO what they are fishing for they can say trout. Steelhead stamp not required on Fraser when fishing for other species.
-
they do not.
Socially & culturally they do not.
If one chooses to isolate themselves from the fabric of contemporary society because of the past then that's on them...but to use the misdeeds of our forefathers as leverage (to gain advantage over other groups) when you're also benefiting from present day opportunities (allotted by the very society you despise) is pure hypocrisy.
-
From the organizers
Some key points & messages:
We are not targeting any species
This statement should be omitted from your criteria because you're trying to convey that you can successfully fish selectively... by saying you're not targeting any species sounds loose at best, if not interpreted as deceitful or uncontrolled in its intent.
-
If one chooses to isolate themselves from the fabric of contemporary society because of the past then that's on them...but to use the misdeeds of our forefathers as leverage (to gain advantage over other groups) when you're also benefiting from present day opportunities (allotted by the very society you despise) is pure hypocrisy.
No, it is the white man who has isolated them, perpetuating the cycle of poverty, social stigma, alcohol and drug addiction that run rampant in many aboriginal communities - afflictions unknown to them until the arrival of the white man.
And what benefits are you talking about? Living on reserves? Scant salmon openings? Please enlighten me because I have no clue.
-
From the organizers
Some key points & messages:
We closely monitor fishery at Wellington (C&R Bar fishing only fish kept in the water)
We officially support the demo fishery at one location only (back end of Wellington)
We have no influence or control of what happens on balance of river
We cooperate with First Nations if in area.
We are not targeting any species
WE ARE DEMONSTRATING THAT WE CAN FISH TRULY SELECTIVELY FOR OTHER SPECIES & AVOID SOCKEYE (This is key message & intent of the fishery)
Refer media questions to spokespeople (Fred or Rod)
We will ensure we have people at both Wellington & Island 22 to provide control & directions
All participants will be given info sheet for recording & brochure. They must understand rules of the day.
If asked by DFO what they are fishing for they can say trout. Steelhead stamp not required on Fraser when fishing for other species.
Sorry but this is total BS. "We are not targeting any species..." , "if asked by DFO what they are fishing for they can say trout. Steelhead stamp not required on Fraser when fishing for other species"...WTF, really?, if that's what your telling participants you guys are asking the masses to outright lie, plain and simple, you know that is a lie and so does anyone that participates, you state you want to prove selective fishing for salmon other than Sockeye, the gear your using and methods are for salmon, salmon are closed. Anyone targeting salmon are fishing illegally, your breaking the law, period.
"We have no influence or control of what happens on balance of river", what???, worried you may have others taking advantage of your protest fishery and don't want to associated with it...you are asking people to fish illegally...I hope it comes back and bites you in the rear end.
Wrong way to try and get your message out...
-
If one chooses to isolate themselves from the fabric of contemporary society because of the past then that's on them...but to use the misdeeds of our forefathers as leverage (to gain advantage over other groups) when you're also benefiting from present day opportunities (allotted by the very society you despise) is pure hypocrisy.
Your words are without meaning. You have not had your way of life taken away from you.
-
No, it is the white man who has isolated them, perpetuating the cycle of poverty, social stigma, alcohol and drug addiction that run rampant in many aboriginal communities - afflictions unknown to them until the arrival of the white man.
And what benefits are you talking about? Living on reserves? Scant salmon openings? Please enlighten me because I have no clue.
When my parents came over from the old country 50 years ago they had no social services to rely on, no ESL, and no health benefits....nothing! They were ridiculed for being a minority even though they were well educated. They had to take on multiple menial jobs because their university degrees were attained from a third world country and it took them a decade to scrape up enough money to afford themselves suitable housing and reaffirm their degrees. This while raising 4 very young children. This while white neighbours scolded them for moving into their complex and their children bullying my siblings and I as part of their playtime. Living on the level of poverty that can only be described as third world in a first world nation.....Was it fair? No.... but that's what my parents endured to make a better life for their family.
My father use to tell me..."you're only to blame if you do nothing to better yourself in life, you can be victimize and still flourish or spend your life as a prisoner of resentment"
-
When my parents came over from the old country 50 years ago they had no social services to rely on, no ESL, and no health benefits....nothing! They were ridiculed for being a minority even though they were well educated. They had to take on multiple menial jobs because their university degrees were attained from a third world country and it took them a decade to scrape up enough money to afford themselves suitable housing and reaffirm their degrees. This while raising 4 very young children. This while white neighbours scolded them for moving into their complex and their children bullying my siblings and I as part of their playtime. Living on the level of poverty that can only be described as third world in a first world nation.....Was it fair? No.... but that's what my parents endured to make a better life for their family.
My father use to tell me..."you're only to blame if you do nothing to better yourself in life, you can be victimize and still flourish or spend your life as a prisoner of resentment"
So why do you victimize other victims?
-
Your words are without meaning. You have not had your way of life taken away from you.
You can't change the past, but in turn, can't live as a prisoner of resentment. That's a major stumbling block that disallows you to progress in life.
-
So why do you victimize other victims?
How am I victimizing others when I'm merely stating facts?
-
When my parents came over from the old country 50 years ago they had no social services to rely on, no ESL, and no health benefits....nothing! They were ridiculed for being a minority even though they were well educated. They had to take on multiple menial jobs because their university degrees were attained from a third world country and it took them a decade to scrape up enough money to afford themselves suitable housing and reaffirm their degrees. This while raising 4 very young children. This while white neighbours scolded them for moving into their complex and their children bullying my siblings and I as part of their playtime. Living on the level of poverty that can only be described as third world in a first world nation.....Was it fair? No.... but that's what my parents endured to make a better life for their family.
My father use to tell me..."you're only to blame if you do nothing to better yourself in life, you can be victimize and still flourish or spend your life as a prisoner of resentment"
Much of what your folks went through has been a reality for most immigrants settling in Canada, myself included. And that was a scant 18 years ago.
But we did it BY CHOICE. No one put a gun against our heads and forced us into Canada.
Ask the aboriginals if they had the privilege of being able to choose.
-
If one chooses to isolate themselves from the fabric of contemporary society because of the past then that's on them...but to use the misdeeds of our forefathers as leverage (to gain advantage over other groups) when you're also benefiting from present day opportunities (allotted by the very society you despise) is pure hypocrisy.
my friend you have it backwards & are grossly misrepresenting the facts & history. Your parents chose to come here. FN people were here before anyone else came. Once other people from Europe came agreements were made & alliances formed, land title surrendered in exchange for specific rights of access to resources. It wasn't just fish either.
As far as "misdeeds of our fathers". Governments don't cease to be after an election results in a new party. It's responsibilities under the law stay the same.
FWIW my parents came here as foreigners too & faced discrimination. I had the experience myself. My father had skills that were not recognized once he got here. My parents together built a new life much your family.
-
If one chooses to isolate themselves from the fabric of contemporary society because of the past then that's on them...but to use the misdeeds of our forefathers as leverage (to gain advantage over other groups) when you're also benefiting from present day opportunities (allotted by the very society you despise) is pure hypocrisy.
You can't change the past, but in turn, can't live as a prisoner of resentment. That's a major stumbling block that disallows you to progress in life.
Excellent points, but unfortunately if you want to be part of this forum, you have to understand that it's infested with bleeding heart liberal left wingers....
-
I wonder however is the future of this special treatment. The destruction of the Natives lives and culture happened in the past - many generations down, far removed from any of us of people alive today. No one should own the Earth and forever have special rights
While I understand your point and think it will be interesting to see how "native rights" evolve has FN people take a larger part in Canadian society. I want to say that in my life time I have seen and experienced what you describe as far removed from any of us alive today. For FN people born on isolated reserve with facilities and services typical of 3rd and 4th world countries, far removed from educational and employment opportunities it is still very real and a part of their everyday lives.
-
For FN people born on isolated reserve with facilities and services typical of 3rd and 4th world countries, [...] it is still very real and a part of their everyday lives
I believe that every Canadian has a right to safe, clean water. That's not happening on many reserves:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/bad-water-third-world-conditions-on-first-nations-in-canada-1.3269500
"If this was in a town or municipality somewhere else, the news would be all over this," said Derrick Gould, an outgoing band councillor from Pinaymootang."
I believe that every Canadian has a right to live in a home free from mould and other dangerous allergens. Also not happening on many reserves:
http://bc.ctvnews.ca/mould-plagues-first-nations-reserves-uvic-study-1.758789
"The UVic researchers suggest that a long history of removing aboriginal people from their traditional homes and placing them on reserves has degraded their economic power and left them dependent on Ottawa for survival."
When I see posts talking about how the solution is to just treat everyone equally, I think they have a good point. But I also think we should talk about big issues like water quality and safe housing before we start looking at less important things like fishing rights.
-
So there must be rods in the water by now - maybe not quite yet.
Wonder how their prizes will be awarded:
* First fish
* Largest Spring
* Largest Jack Spring
* Smallest Jack
* First Sockeye
* Hook furthest from the mouth.
Who will receive the ceremonial ticket for fishing for species out of season?
Who will receive the first boat confiscation?
The group is there and the demonstration is going to take place regardless of any further opposition. Dang, I hope nobody hooks a Sockeye otherwise you'll never see a limited/species targeted opening by Bar fishing only during the presence of protected/restricted species.
Does anyone have any live news on the event?
-
I remember watching a protest fishery at the Brownsville Bar in the 90's, fishery officers were there undercover for a while watching, then the uniformed guys came down and ticketed a load of people and confiscated all their gear. Sure hope everyone left their Sage rods and fancy reels at home...
-
A bit late, but I just read the BCWF email regarding this. I am extremely disappointed that the Fed decided to put out a public statement condemning this Demonstration. I agree that should not support it, but to actually come out and condemn it... Would of been best to have no comment. Fishermen and women do not need special "authorization" to legally fish. The Fraser River is not closed to fishing! There are an abundance of species to fish for, many of which can be successfully caught bar fishing. Though some may not like the purpose behind the Demonstration Fishery it is breaking no laws, and will provide solid evidence. Evidence that the DFO and the FLNRO have refused any attempt at gathering themselves.
-
A bit late, but I just read the BCWF email regarding this. I am extremely disappointed that the Fed decided to put out a public statement condemning this Demonstration.
Is there a link? I'm sure many would be interested in reading the response.
-
So there must be rods in the water by now - maybe not quite yet.
Wonder how their prizes will be awarded:
* First fish
* Largest Spring
* Largest Jack Spring
* Smallest Jack
* First Sockeye
* Hook furthest from the mouth.
Who will receive the ceremonial ticket for fishing for species out of season?
Who will receive the first boat confiscation?
The group is there and the demonstration is going to take place regardless of any further opposition. Dang, I hope nobody hooks a Sockeye otherwise you'll never see a limited/species targeted opening by Bar fishing only during the presence of protected/restricted species.
Does anyone have any live news on the event?
Why do you have to keep trolling this thread? If you are loosing your sleep so much over this just go down and see for yourself and state your opinion or you could just keep posting anonymous nonsense on internet.
-
Why do you have to keep trolling this thread? If you are loosing your sleep so much over this just go down and see for yourself and state your opinion or you could just keep posting anonymous nonsense on internet.
Why do you worry so much about me? If you are loosing sleep over my words of wisdom why don't you ignore what I post. Can you imagine that I'm so deep into your mind that you had to bring yourself to post what you did? I am truly honored that you think so highly of my preaching that you bless my words with your kindness and care. You are the best and my heart goes out to you.
Sorry, I can't get out to Wellington on my little fly fishing boat otherwise it is a beautiful day and it would be awesome to be out on the Fraser fishing today.
Listen, now that the event is on, I really wish the group all the best in achieving what they hope to accomplish with this demonstration. I was hoping in today's day of technology, there would be some live streaming from a drone camera for those without river boats to witness this.
As for you Tangles, try not to spike up your blood pressure too much over me or my postings - it's really not worth it. My words are just my words and honestly, they shouldn't profoundly move you as much as they do. Try a cool glass of sugar free, orange Metamucil - it should help clear your mind - it works for me.
Cheers, :-*
-
LOL. Carry on Rieber some of us enjoy your nonsense. Sometimes a little comedic relief is appreciated.
-
LOL. Carry on Rieber some of us enjoy your nonsense. Sometimes a little comedic relief is appreciated.
Rieber, you rock, Dude! But you are even funnier in person. ;D
Excellent points, but unfortunately if you want to be part of this forum, you have to understand that it's infested with bleeding heart liberal left wingers....
Robert G, I truly hope you have me included me among them. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the forefather of all of us bleeding heart left wing liberals, must be smiling at you now. :)
-
LOL. Carry on Rieber some of us enjoy your nonsense. Sometimes a little comedic relief is appreciated.
egg-xactly!
-
Robert G, I truly hope you have me included me among them. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the forefather of all of us bleeding heart left wing liberals, must be smiling at you now. :)
bleeding heart liberal...derives directly from the expression, "the bleeding heart of Christ."
-
Is there a link? I'm sure many would be interested in reading the response.
This is an excerpt from the email that was sent to members:
"Anglers plan to hold unauthorized fishing demonstration
Recreational fishers frustrated at being shut out on the Fraser River are holding a demonstration selective bar fishery on the Labour Day weekend. The BC Wildlife Federation is sympathetic to the goals of the Fraser River Sportfishing Alliance for selective fisheries, but cannot condone fisheries that are not authorized, demonstration or otherwise.
"We will be taking our concerns to the Minister through Mr. Terry Beech, the Parliamentary Secretary for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans who we are meeting with on September 9th,”stated Harvey Andrusak, president of the BCWF. “We will be suggesting constructive approaches to managing this and other fisheries during times of low abundance of salmon and steelhead." "
I have proudly been a member of the BCWF since I was a child and will continue to support them! However, in my opinion there was absolutely no need for this. Especially since no laws were even being broken. The only AUTHORIZATION you need to fish the Fraser right now is a valid Fishing License. I am unable to find any hint or suggestion that the the FRSFA and the BCWF are connected in anyway so why the need to distance themselves and throw the FRSFA under the bus? It is great that the BCWF is taking alternate approaches to resolving this issue, but the more the groups and people that speak out the better.
Anyways, I hope the demonstration went well. Lots of Fun was had by all, and plenty of data was collected.
-
Did anyone make it out? Any fish caught?
-
any press there?
-
On Global at 6pm
-
I hope they paint a better picture than the news cast I seen yesterday.
Made the protestors sound like a bunch of thugs.
-
The Global report did not do a good job of articulating what the demonstration was about, ie. trying to show there are ways to allow sport fishing of the Fraser without impacting sockeye.
They made it seem more like fishermen are angry about the sockeye closure and out there fishing for them anyways...
-
On Global at 6pm
I poked around the Global website just now but couldn't find it. Does anyone have a link?
-
The Global report did not do a good job of articulating what the demonstration was about, ie. trying to show there are ways to allow sport fishing of the Fraser without impacting sockeye.
They made it seem more like fishermen are angry about the sockeye closure and out there fishing for them anyways...
That's because the media too is bought and paid for by the liberal left wing agenda.
-
Much of what your folks went through has been a reality for most immigrants settling in Canada, myself included. And that was a scant 18 years ago.
But we did it BY CHOICE. No one put a gun against our heads and forced us into Canada.
Ask the aboriginals if they had the privilege of being able to choose.
You're right it was by choice that my parents moved to Canada, just like some friends from Afghanistan, Sarajevo, and Vietnam....what you fail to see is that not all migrants uprooted their lives for the sake of capital gain, but for the mere right to exist. Through some of our eyes, the plight of Native Americans is a step up from where we originated from. No offense was intended in the comments I made....It was just to point out that no matter how bad they think they have it...there will always be others who have it worse.
-
That's because the media too is bought and paid for by the liberal left wing agenda.
High five, finally someone gets it!
-
That's because the media too is bought and paid for by the liberal left wing agenda.
Getting sympathetic coverage on this event was going to be tough from the get-go. I don't know that you have to jump straight to conspiracy :P
Reporters have to reduce an issue to a couple of minutes for broadcast. They get a couple of sound bites from each side: on one side you have an angler who says "Our access to salmon is limited and we'd like that changed. We can increase rec access to salmon without harming at-risk stocks" and on the other you have a DFO-type saying "The runs this year are historically low. We've been working on enforcement and conservation."
The average person probably can't name a salmon species besides Sockeye. How can the media be expected to convey the nuances of this issue in a 2-minute segment?
Reminds me of when the RCMP retroactively banned the 25-round Butler Creek mags for the Ruger 10/22. They'd been legal for years and they became illegal suddenly and without notice because the mags could be used in a newer handgun. Except there were very few of these particular handguns in Canada and the mag had been made for the rifle; the pistol (I forget the name now) happened to take the 10/22 mags and it would have been illegal to use the mags with the pistol anyways! There was an argument to be made that the banning was arbitrary, capricious, and unfair but good luck complaining to anyone outside of a range or sporting goods store. The public didn't understand or care... they just heard armed weirdos complaining about not being able to put enough bullets in their guns ::)
-
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember on the morning of the election CNN blatantly aired that the POLLS stated that Hilary Clinton was either 95% or 98% chance of winning the election. NO ONE can be that off. Everyone with a brain knows it was a 'hopeful' left wing tactic to get republicans to give up and stay home and not bother to vote.
CNN, CBC...etc.etc is so guilty of fake news.....its ridiculous...they've all been caught several times and 99 times out of 100, the fake news favors the left wing progressive agenda....
You have to be blind to not see it.
-
You have to be blind to not see it.
I may not see it but you're seeing it everywhere. I'll leave you to it.
(I like that your profile pic is Magic the Gathering art, btw. I'm a big fan of the game!)
-
I poked around the Global website just now but couldn't find it. Does anyone have a link?
here you go.http://globalnews.ca/video/3715238/sports-anglers-protest-sockeye-fishery-crackdown
-
I guess its serious when they bring in the coast guard cutter. LoL. Sounds like from the DFOs perspective they don't plan on opening the Fraser this year. Has a full closure ever happened in history?
-
No DFO shown up. Nobody been handcuffed.
-
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember on the morning of the election CNN blatantly aired that the POLLS stated that Hilary Clinton was either 95% or 98% chance of winning the election. NO ONE can be that off. Everyone with a brain knows it was a 'hopeful' left wing tactic to get republicans to give up and stay home and not bother to vote.
CNN, CBC...etc.etc is so guilty of fake news.....its ridiculous...they've all been caught several times and 99 times out of 100, the fake news favors the left wing progressive agenda....
You have to be blind to not see it.
Everyone with a brain knows Hillary is spelled with two L not one. And btw cnn never predicted her to win by 95%, not sure where you dug that lie up from? They did predict her ahead in the polls by a small amount. And guess what? She won the popular vote, meaning the majority of Muricans wanted her to be president. You really know whats ridiculous? That any folks north of the border believe a single word the sick elderly white supremacist trump utters, after all he has proven himself a serial/pathological liar numerous times...
And for whats its worth I support the protest fishery 100 %, and thank those willing to help make a change. I have had a few of my own "protests" already and will likely have more. 8)
-
Glad to hear a lot of people showed up and were willing to put their necks on the line for this but I really wish they would have worked on their message. It came across as bar fishermen don't target sockeye. Like I said in an earlier post, DFO and government knows this so that's nothing new. The bigger issue is where sport fishermen stand. We're at the bottom of the totem pole. Currently, if there's not enough fish for a FN opening and commercial opening then there's no chance for a rec opening. If the message today was sport fishermen should have an opening even if commercial and FN don't have one and have the facts to back up that sport fishermen have little effect on salmon stocks then I think more people would be behind them.
-
So what was the end result fish catch summary? Even though the Demonstration was only targeting Steelhead, Trout and Char, I wasn't surprised Global showed footage of what appeared to be a nice Chinook being released.
Any evidence of the alien Atlantic Salmon up the river yet?
-
Everyone with a brain knows Hillary is spelled with two L not one.
You know you've got nothing when the first thing you point out is a spelling error. And yes CNN did post those numbers. I'm pretty sure NBC did too.
-
Saw the news report on at 11 last night on Global.
Fred and Rod did an amazing job. I thought global had fair and accurate representation of the matter.
A big thanks to all who showed up. I was not out there but I am glad there was a good turnout.
-
So what was the end result fish catch summary? Even though the Demonstration was only targeting Steelhead, Trout and Char, I wasn't surprised Global showed footage of what appeared to be a nice Chinook being released.
Any evidence of the alien Atlantic Salmon up the river yet?
I am sure we will soon get a tally of the fish caught and of course all released.
-
I guess its serious when they bring in the coast guard cutter. LoL. Sounds like from the DFOs perspective they don't plan on opening the Fraser this year. Has a full closure ever happened in history?
I was out in the salt it's been park out front of the river mouth (Sand Heads) for days. Got checked by DFO yesterday. They said that they wrote 2 full books worth of tickets for barb hooks in one day. Thats Freaking pathetic I am ashamed at people that use them. They said that they were asked to come help out front to manage the recreational fishery by the officer in charge of the Steveston office. As the Chilliwack, Mission, Langley and Steveston DFO offices have all there members working around the clock managing the native fishery up river.
The vessels is operated out of Victoria. It is not a Coast Guard Vessel it is owned by DFO and manned by 3 officers that work 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. Coast guard provides the pilot,cook and deck hands but it's directed where it's needed by DFO. It is a mid shore vessel and they recently had two of them built in hallifax.
The river will be open for Chum and Coho, Not sure about pinks
-
"September 02, 2017
A big thank you to everyone that attended the demonstration fishery today. It was a great day with great people. The mission to demonstrate that Sockeye could be avoided with bar fishing methods was clearly proved with approx 80 anglers. Final numbers are not complete but approx 10 Chinook and 20 pinks were landed and carefully released. Zero Sockeye were hooked for the day. There were Sockeye being caught right next to us with long drift nets, so they were in the river in decent numbers as well.
The First Nations fishers and anglers were respectful to each other as they fished side by side with no issues or altercations what so ever. This concern that is continually brought up by DFO as a stumbling block and a reason recreational fishers should not be on the water can be handled with common sense and courtesy. Not everyone is able follow this approach but today it was clear that it can work.
FRSA will continue to fight for opportunity with resourceful thinking with the support of many organizations and the growing membership. Thanks for making a difference in this difficult and challenging task to save our fishery.
Lets work together to ensure there are fish for future generations.
Join the FRSA team today. Fraseralliance.com"
Taken from freds website.
https://www.fredscustomtackle.com/fishing-report
-
Also some photos of bycatch male pinks being dumped are making the rounds on FB.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21272325_1431535260233166_692123982315623834_n.jpg?oh=02517efed7dc9bdfb5660174cfe3b35c&oe=5A1AFBDD)
https://www.facebook.com/CrescentSportfishing/
-
Thanks for info on the event yesterday. It's terrible how a few bad apples (people who cause problems for the FN fishery) can have such a broad effect. Once I was fishing a spot, crowded 'cause sockeye were open and a FN came by mentioning that someone
had pushed his boat into the river overnight. Fortunately some other rec anglers recovered it for him. I've also heard stories of people, fishing from anchored boats who won't move when FN boats using drift nets come by.
also looking at the by-catch discards I can't help wondering if those can't go to a food bank or some other no-profit that could put it to use.
-
also looking at the by-catch discards I can't help wondering if those can't go to a food bank or some other no-profit that could put it to use.
I'd let you sample the dish first. They've been sitting out in 30+ degree heat. They're wasted...I need not say more.
-
Also some photos bycatch male pinks being dumped making the round on FB.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21272325_1431535260233166_692123982315623834_n.jpg?oh=02517efed7dc9bdfb5660174cfe3b35c&oe=5A1AFBDD)
https://www.facebook.com/CrescentSportfishing/
What an absolute waste. Makes my blood boil. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
-
Keep calm. Incidental by-catch mortalities like these have already been taken into account when allocating quotas. Conservation objectives will be met lol. :-*
-
I'd let you sample the dish first. They've been sitting out in 30+ degree heat. They're wasted...I need not say more.
Lol ... yes they are clearly wasted. What an insult to every readers intelligence but I have come to expect that and worse.
-
Those discarded pinks show that a certain group won't lower themselves to eat pinks while they claim their people have to deal with poverty and lack of salmon for their need this year, whereas many of us got up at 4 or 5am and drove all that far to Squamish just to have the chance to provide the family with one pink and that is if they are lucky. They are not just a waste. They are a symbol of discriminatory treatment between races in fishery management and a shame to our Canadian value of equality for all.
-
also looking at the by-catch discards I can't help wondering if those can't go to a food bank or some other no-profit that could put it to use.
Well....let me read your post again then....since you are accusing me of insulting people.
You said you "can't help 'wonder'". That generally means to be deep in thought...and we all can only imagine what goes on in your (brainwashed by the system left wing) mind.
You continued with "could they go to a food bank". That sounded to me like a question or a possibility. If you want to be understood as already knowing, then why would you open the idea of possibility?
Lastly you say "could put it to use". What use is that? If you already know they are wasted....why even ramble on about it?
Because that's what you do...ramble on about things you know very little about.
-
Those discarded pinks show that a certain group won't lower themselves to eat pinks while they claim their people have to deal with poverty and lack of salmon for their need this year, whereas many of us got up at 4 or 5am and drove all that far to Squamish just to have the chance to provide the family with one pink and that is if they are lucky. They are not just a waste. They are a symbol of discriminatory treatment between races in fishery management and a shame to our Canadian value of equality for all.
Well said, but there are people here who have stated that the natives need salmon to survive and can't survive on a western diet. I guess they must have more than they need if they are throwing fish away. I guess they won't have any problem with the sporties getting an opening now.
-
Everyone with a brain knows Hillary is spelled with two L
If you really wanna be technical the correct spelling is with a K - Killary ;D
-
If you really wanna be technical the correct spelling is with a K - Killary ;D
You'd be shocked how many times articles and opinions have outright used that name. It suits her. She has blood on her hands like you wouldn't believe.
-
Well....let me read your post again then....since you are accusing me of insulting people.
You said you "can't help 'wonder'". That generally means to be deep in thought...and we all can only imagine what goes on in your (brainwashed by the system left wing) mind.
You continued with "could they go to a food bank". That sounded to me like a question or a possibility. If you want to be understood as already knowing, then why would you open the idea of possibility?
Lastly you say "could put it to use". What use is that? If you already know they are wasted....why even ramble on about it?
Because that's what you do...ramble on about things you know very little about.
Ok, Robert I can accept that you read it that way. I apologize for stating you insulted the intellgence of the readers here though I was referring to the discards issue in general & not the specific fish in the photo,
However to re-visit another issue; do first FN peoples have the same access to resources as all Canadians?
in 2011 the Supreme Court of Canada rules in Cummins V Rex (1998):
exclusive aboriginal-only fishery did not violate the constitutional rights of non-aboriginal fishermen because the disadvantage of aboriginal people is indisputable.
“The bands granted the benefit were disadvantaged in terms of income, education and a host of other measures. This disadvantage, rooted in history, continues to this day,” ruled the Supreme Court.
-
You'd be shocked how many times articles and opinions have outright used that name. It suits her. She has blood on her hands like you wouldn't believe.
A total delusion RG - you lack any sense of critical thinking.
-
A total delusion RG
Exactly what a left winger would say.
-
However to re-visit another issue; do first FN peoples have the same access to resources as all Canadians?
in 2011 the Supreme Court of Canada rules in Cummins V Rex (1998):
Ralph, that quote from the Supreme Court of Canada completely shows why you're wrong.
It does NOT state that they had a disadvantage in ACCESS.
But what is SHOWS is that they CHOSE to not take advantage of the opportunities.
You and I both know that Natives have awesome opportunities for post secondary education. The get a lot of their education for free. I had to take out a student loan for all my university.
Sadly in a lot of cases....they CHOOSE not to take advantage of it. How can you blame the Caucasian for the poor choices that most natives make?
We had a native couple for neighbors awhile back. Both of them got their masters.....fully paid for by the government. They are awesome citizens and make over $200 k per year combined income. They chose to take advantage of opportunities not available to me and they made the most of it.
Something I don't understand with you is how you see that a person or group of people can make bad choices and then expect to be bailed out by someone else instead of face the consequences that they laid out for themselves. That's one of the main problems with all left wingers...they just can't see the forest for the trees.
We all make our own beds, so we better understand that we have to sleep in them too.
-
You and I both know that Natives have awesome opportunities for post secondary education. The get a lot of their education for free.
Have you ever dealt with INAC? I doubt it.
We had a native couple for neighbors awhile back. Both of them got their masters.....fully paid for by the government.
I don't know the specifics but this would be exceptional.
I had to take out a student loan for all my university.
And your loan was interest free.
We all make our own beds, so we better understand that we have to sleep in them too.
Yup, conservatism works fine until your bed is on fire, or is under water, or you need a bed with a doctor. Just look around. We are all in this together - one bed, one society, and one planet. Stop kidding yourself! (And show some respect)
-
Threads like this make me want to leave again for a few years. Sticky this one it's broken please and thank you
-
I'm with Danielk. Stop this thread.
-
Threads like this make me want to leave again for a few years. Sticky this one it's broken please and thank you
I take it you want the administrator to lock this thread... Did you really believe that this demonstration wasn't going to stir the pot? Sometimes valid points come across as prejudicial, but in the whole scheme of things, dirty laundry needs to get aired out before common ground is attained. If you don't like the direction its gone, don't participate... simple. As long as no one crosses that fine line, forum members should be allowed to rant.
-
Please don't lock it. The online jousting between Ralph and Robert is highly entertaining. It's been an interweb staple for well over 15 years.
I was just going to go make some popcorn. Please don't make me wait for another thread.
-
Exactly what a left winger would say.
Robert, do you even know what the left wing is?
Have you ever considered the contribution of the left to the benefits so many of us enjoy today?
If you had taken the time to inform yourself before tapping all that vitriol onto the screen, you might have even learned a thing or two.
From your posts through the years, I believe I have come up with quite an accurate profile of yours: middle to senior age, caucasian, Anglo-saxon, God-fearing, bible thumping Christian. In short, a relic from the Canadian past who simply cannot get over the fact that Canada is no longer the country of white supremacy.
I have a piece of unsolicited advice: suck it up, buttercup. Racism has no place in today's society. Even your good lord JC probably shudders at the thought of racial discrimination.
From the bottom og my heart, I wish you to be blessed with many many healthy grandchildren and great grand children of mixed race because interracial kids are the most efficient way of bringing people of all colours closer together and closing the gap that retrograde people work hard at keeping as wide open as possible. :)
-
Much of what your folks went through has been a reality for most immigrants settling in Canada, myself included. And that was a scant 18 years ago.
But we did it BY CHOICE. No one put a gun against our heads and forced us into Canada.
Ask the aboriginals if they had the privilege of being able to choose.
Exactly this. Well said. We were in the same situation landing with hardly anything and being minority. Yet, I would never compare our situation with the First Nations situation. Its pretty awful when people try to use that terrible comparison. The situations are not even slightly similar.
-
Exactly this. Well said. We were in the same situation landing with hardly anything and being minority. Yet, I would never compare our situation with the First Nations situation. Its pretty awful when people try to use that terrible comparison. The situations are not even slightly similar.
Why? Because you believe First Nations suffered more than the plight of others who got driven from their homeland while losing love ones in the process? You're right there's no comparison because at least First Nations are still standing on the grounds of their ancestors. I have a friend now who lost his entire family in the Bosnian War who came to Canada as a refugee and after hearing about this thread he said he would gladly trade place with any First Nations who think they've got it bad. The difference is, he's made peace with the past and is now thriving with a new family....He's never forgotten, but he never let the situation defeat him let alone made him bitter thinking the world owed him more.
-
Rodney.
This thread is well past any semblance of usefulness and needs to be closed. Pretty said to see that the posts here delve into race wars. Not a good way for sporties to gain any respect...
-
Please don't lock it. The online jousting between Ralph and Robert is highly entertaining. It's been an interweb staple for well over 15 years.
I was just going to go make some popcorn. Please don't make me wait for another thread.
Just where to you stand on the Maria Slough Sockeye controversy? ;D
-
From your posts through the years, I believe I have come up with quite an accurate profile of yours: middle to senior age, caucasian, Anglo-saxon, God-fearing, bible thumping Christian. In short, a relic from the Canadian past who simply cannot get over the fact that Canada is no longer the country of white supremacy.
I have a piece of unsolicited advice: suck it up, buttercup. Racism has no place in today's society. Even your good lord JC probably shudders at the thought of racial discrimination.
You ask if I know what left wing is? It's posts like these from you which is confirmation of why you are left wing.
You exaggerate and post things about people or things that are outright not true.
Over the last few days, I've been posting against discrimination and racism more than anyone.
So how do you respond? You insinuate that I'm full of 'racial discrimination' because I don't want a certain group to receive favoritism over the rest of us.
That's what left wingers do. They insult people who have different opinions even when they don't have the documentation or quotes to back it up.
You've been around these forums long enough to know their isn't a post under my name that suggests I'm racist or white supremacist. In fact my posts probably use the words 'equality' more than anyone else here. I'll say it again, so next time you call me racist I can report you.
"I believe all Canadians should live as one people. All having access to buying property and goods, being able to work, or start a business, pay taxes, and enjoy the services that the country provides us. With no one receiving special consideration or financial extras, etc, etc because of race, gender, etc. etc. All Canadian citizens are and will always be considered equal under our government and laws"
That is what I stand for, and if you think that statement has ANYTHING to do with racism or discrimination, then you're not too bright and should have someone help you with your posting before insinuate things.
-
Those discarded pinks show that a certain group won't lower themselves to eat pinks while they claim their people have to deal with poverty ...
it's always been common for sport anglers to discard by-catch and toss it in the bush, how about you?
-
it's always been common for sport anglers to discard by-catch and toss it in the bush, how about you?
So you're assuming all sporties are the same? You say it's 'COMMON'. See it's idiotic comments like that why I can't respect you. I've never tossed a salmon in the bush ever. In fact, In over 35 years of salmon fishing, I've seen very few sporties toss salmon in the bush. But you just lumped us all together.
-
Did I mention salmon? I don't think so.
Ralph, that quote from the Supreme Court of Canada completely shows why you're wrong.
Robert, five years of University and you still don't understand denial is not an argument.
Next you'll offer the Monty Python-esque "t'isn't" rebuttal. I'll sit that out thank you.
I didn't say anything Robbie, I just quoted the SCO ruling.
-
Did I mention salmon? I don't think so.
If you didn't mean salmon, then what did you mean? Pike Minnows. Really???
This topic is about salmon.
-
I agree with Birkenhead,
its time to close this thread.
Too much ranting.
-
it's always been common for sport anglers to discard by-catch and toss it in the bush, how about you?
I dont agree. Invasive species and non-game fish, perhaps, but when is it common for sporties to discard by-catch of a species for which there is a conservation concern?
A whole sector is dying for any opening (which was the whole point of the demonstration fishery) but is denied on the premise of conservation yet another sector is literally throwing fish away because they aren't worth any additional effort. A couple dozen pinks are insignificant in the big picture, but the optics of those discarded pinks is bad. And there must have been a better way to handle it than just leaving a pile to rot on the bank.
-
Just where to you stand on the Maria Slough Sockeye controversy? ;D
I can neither confirm nor deny the presence of sockeye in Maria Slough. 😀
-
Catch and release is a kind of discard. Depending on the terminal tackle it can be quite significant. Studies on fishing for coho with roe has shown discard rates (mortality) of 10 to 50% By law you can't waste your catch and that includes pike minnows, chub sculpins and other 'trash' fish.Those fish play important roles in river eco-systems. Sculpins are important trout and bull trout food.
As I said above I think it would benefit if means could be developed to make use of non-target species in FN fisheries, like pinks.
-
And there must have been a better way to handle it than just leaving a pile to rot on the bank.
The only rational thing to do is to go back to the river, collect those salmon, and donate them to a food bank. And just to be clear I'm not talking about salmon caught in the future. I'm talking about those fish in particular.
/s
-
Rodney.
This thread is well past any semblance of usefulness and needs to be closed. Pretty said to see that the posts here delve into race wars. Not a good way for sporties to gain any respect...
What do you think the Demonstration Fishery was all about? When you peel away at the layers of sugar coated political correctness along with seeing photos of discarded salmon by special interest groups, it's really hard to swallow the pill of empathy. It's even harder when certain people feel it justified.
Maybe as a protest Recreational Fishermen should file a class action law suit for the return of funds spent on Tidal Salmon Tags....would that not be justified?
-
The only rational thing to do is to go back to the river, collect those salmon, and donate them to a food bank. And just to be clear I'm not talking about salmon caught in the future. I'm talking about those fish in particular.
/s
Sarcasm at it's best.
If a sporty caught another sporty doing that to any salmon chances are the perpetrator would end up going for a swim.
If a CO caught a sporty doing that to any salmon, chances are they would be fined and charged with animal cruelty.
But if they belong to a special interest group, it's okay because it falls under their assigned quota along with their God given rights. Too boot, it's considered racist to speak out against it.
-
It's a blinkered view that let's you see it this way. The discard of by-catch pinks is relatively small compared to what happens in the commercial sectors. Likewsie Sport anglers discard without even thinking or recognizing it.
That said it would be best to utilize them if FN people won't. DFO would have to make a concession as technically those fish are only for first nations use.
-
Sarcasm at it's best.
If a sporty caught another sporty doing that to any salmon chances are the perpetrator would end up going for a swim.
If a CO caught a sporty doing that to any salmon, chances are they would be fined and charged with animal cruelty.
But if they belong to a special interest group, it's okay because it falls under their assigned quota along with their God given rights. Too boot, laying out criticism for their actions and questioning their integrity is considered racist.
Wrong. No one here condones wasting animals. By any user groups.
You are making unsubstantiated insinuations.
"I believe all Canadians should live as one people. All having access to buying property and goods, being able to work, or start a business, pay taxes, and enjoy the services that the country provides us. With no one receiving special consideration or financial extras, etc, etc because of race, gender, etc. etc. All Canadian citizens are and will always be considered equal under our government and laws"
That is what I stand for, and if you think that statement has ANYTHING to do with racism or discrimination, then you're not too bright and should have someone help you with your posting before insinuate things.
So, according to you, there is no such thing as the underprivileged who need "special consideration and financial extras"? The heck with struggling single mothers and the handicapped, who needs them anyway?
That is what any reasonable person will infer from your quote above. >:(
-
It's a blinkered view that let's you see it this way. The discard of by-catch pinks is relatively small compared to what happens in the commercial sectors. Likewsie Sport anglers discard without even thinking or recognizing it.
That said it would be best to utilize them if FN people won't. DFO would have to make a concession as technically those fish are only for first nations use.
Let's say this photo represents a single set...now multiply that by the number of boats/shore netting in a region...is that not significant? Does the quota allot for gross catch including the discarded or is it just the total retained? What percentage of culling is accounted for in a week's worth of netting...What is the mortality rate per percentage of fish processed vs wasted?
-
Wrong. No one here condones wasting animals. By any user groups.
You are making unsubstantiated insinuations.
No my friend, I'm making direct accusations because I've witnessed it with my very own eyes and have reported it without results.
-
Well focusing on the transgression of one group like natives and ignoring others smacks of discrimination.
-
Likewsie Sport anglers discard without even thinking or recognizing it.
Who is it you are talking about? It says right in the regs that it is unlawful to waste our catch. If a sporty is throwing fish in the bush, then he should be fined too.
-
::)