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Author Topic: suicide creek 11-16  (Read 16532 times)

marmot

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2005, 11:39:28 AM »

Sometimes i think its where youre fishing more than the technique thats gonna snag fish backs.  If you are fishing in chum infested water, sooner or later, you'll end up crossing your blades, wool, roe, whatever across some poor unseen salmons back on the retrieve.  You need to look for the right water and fish delicately!
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Rodney

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2005, 11:59:50 AM »

Same old observations and complaints that have been repeatedly brought up in the last four seasons on the forum yet with no specific solutions developed and put forward to those who can make these changes. The solutions will not happen until the angling sector is able to unite instead of excluding individuals who are newcomers by labelling as beeks or those who are not as worthy as "anglers".

Golfman, I feel your frustrations, so I usually do my best to avoid getting into that situation. While making your thoughts heard by getting in the violators' faces get your point across effectively, be very careful what the consequences maybe. In the past fights do break out under these circumstances when both parties don't back up. It's not worth to risk your own safety to argue over the correct fishing techniques.

Phoning the authorities maybe the ideal option, but I highly doubt these individuals would be charged and fined unless they are truly doing something illegal by the book, ie. barbed hook, fishing without a licence, retaining fish over the daily quota. The existing regulations do not dictate how an angler should fish (ie. how far he or she should stand away from the other angler, how long the leader should be, how much weight he or she should use, how thick his or her line should be) and there isn't an intend to introduce such rules into the book.

What this community needs to do is to develop a efficient channel to deliver information on proper fishing techniques to the newcomers. What existing anglers should realize is that we should not turn away those who wish to get into fishing. Angling participation has been on the decline based on licence sales. What is observed at one specific location does not provide an accurate picture of the state of angling in this province.

Education and enforcement need to work side by side to improve the quality of angling in Southern BC. In the last few years I've set out objectives on this website to achieve this, by publishing articles that inform people how they can fish and what they should know about their targeted fish. The fishing reports provide an overview of the current fishing conditions but they are usually accompanied by a list of regulations that need to be learned. Our connection with DFO offices allow me to deliver any concerns that they may have to the community.

What I want to see more is a better way to deliver this information on the river. Signs, bulletin boards and information kiosks can satisfy this requirement. They can reduce the amount of misinformed anglers on the waters. Next spring, we'll be installing one of these information kiosks at London's Landing (Richmond), which is a popular fishing site for parents who wish to take their kids fishing. By having this educational tool available, it should reduce the amount of honest mistakes made by new anglers.

Cheers.

BwiBwi

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2005, 12:14:30 PM »

DFO will probably not change fishing to sport only. As angling for fish did not start as a mean of sporting but food gathering. Regulations are there to prevent wipe out of certain fish specie in certain water system. And to make sure specie under protection can be released with least harm. Truth is, where those less liked fishing method is happening more often, those area are most likely easy access, frequented by less experienced and less challenging. If you are really taking fishing as a sport, walk around find a nice scenic stretch and you'll find less people and even if you do encounter 1 or 2 you'll find they are usually your 'approved' anglers.
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Xgolfman

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2005, 12:56:30 PM »

Same old observations and complaints that have been repeatedly brought up in the last four seasons on the forum yet with no specific solutions developed and put forward to those who can make these changes. The solutions will not happen until the angling sector is able to unite instead of excluding individuals who are newcomers by labelling as beeks or those who are not as worthy as "anglers".

Golfman, I feel your frustrations, so I usually do my best to avoid getting into that situation. While making your thoughts heard by getting in the violator's faces get your point across effectively, be very careful what the consequences maybe. In the past fights do break out under these circumstances when both parties don't back up. It's not worth to risk your own safety to argue over the correct fishing techniques.

Phoning the authorities maybe the ideal option, but I highly doubt these individuals would be charged and fined unless they are truly doing something illegal by the book, ie. barbed hook, fishing without a license, retaining fish over the daily quota. The existing regulations do not dictate how an angler should fish (ie. how far he or she should stand away from the other angler, how long the leader should be, how much weight he or she should use, how thick his or her line should be) and there isn't an intend to introduce such rules into the book.

What this community needs to do is to develop a efficient channel to deliver information on proper fishing techniques to the newcomers. What existing anglers should realize is that we should not turn away those who wish to get into fishing. Angling participation has been on the decline based on license sales. What is observed at one specific location does not provide an accurate picture of the state of angling in this province.

Education and enforcement need to work side by side to improve the quality of angling in Southern BC. In the last few years I've set out objectives on this website to achieve this, by publishing articles that inform people how they can fish and what they should know about their targeted fish. The fishing reports provide an overview of the current fishing conditions but they are usually accompanied by a list of regulations that need to be learned. Our connection with DO offices allow me to deliver any concerns that they may have to the community.

What I want to see more is a better way to deliver this information on the river. Signs, bulletin boards and information kiosks can satisfy this requirement. They can reduce the amount of misinformed anglers on the waters. Next spring, we'll be installing one of these information kiosks at London's Landing (Richmond), which is a popular fishing site for parents who wish to take their kids fishing. By having this educational tool available, it should reduce the amount of honest mistakes made by new anglers.

Cheers.

i figured this was what was happening and i honestly don't try and get into anyones face, it happens but I'm a pretty amicable guy all in all...i was wondering though if anyone thought of making up patches or the like that you got for a buck or free...i don't know, say's "Ethical fisherman" just that...when guys see it and ask you about it, you could tell them the story of snaggers, flossers etc. and explain that you are not one of these...don't know if it would help or not but if you charged a couple bucks for the patch you could you the money for educating guys on the proper way to fish. (might just be flyers at first but at least it would be something)

if I'm being naive i apologize..

Gooey

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2005, 01:33:44 PM »

Imagine how the older fishers on this board feel.  20-30 years ago when they were my age (32 now) they probably saw only a handful of guys a day on the river and fish were thick...I have seen pictures of 2 fishermen with a stringer full of 15-20lb steelhead, can you imagine that!!!  Well imagining it is as close as you are going to get to it now.

When you look at the gong shows, the snagging, the poor treatment of fish and their habitat, unethical fishing practices, etc  I shudder to think what my sons will see on the vedder river in 30 years when I'm that old fisherman who vaguely remembers "the good old days". 

This is why I get so wound up when I see the degridation of our sport.  I don't believe we sports fishing is evolving in a sustainable fashion...that terrifies me. 

We can not wait to act much longer.....that is if we all truely care.
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redtide

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2005, 01:48:45 PM »

hey golfnut....i was also shown how to fish by "ethical fishreman" on the vedder. using a spinning gear my first trip i immmediately switched to levelwind combo set at freds on my second trip. I am a short floater and i never dredge the bottom with lead as many do nowadays. I guess if fisherman really wanted others to stop bottom bouncing then a  lead ban on the vedder and other systems except the fraser would correct that. can't BB without a lot of weight. Although the tackle shops and others involved would not be so thrilled about the loss of sales. then of course licesnce sales would drop somewhat and then DFO would see this as a reason to cut egg production at the hatcheries. then there would be less fish to catch each returning year. somewhere out there there has to be a middle ground everyone can agree on.  And as the BB'ing debate continues the natives continue with their unabandoned raping of the resource...drift nets..poaching....illegal fish sales.....ceremonial fishery.....shopping carts etc etc..

I however do endorse a flyfishing only fishery on the veddr canal  between hyway bridge and KWB. especially during low water levels in the summer time. Keep up the fight Gooey. Ethical fishing will arrive sooner not later with education.
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cohokid

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2005, 03:03:16 PM »

i think that they should reduse the limit of coho to 1 a day. I think that it would stop all the meat fisherman that just want to get there 4 and leave. If there is only a 1 a day limit there will be more fish but other then that people would go for sport to get the fish, and will be thankfull to keep there 1 fish of the day. but im just a kid, so you older gents could think im nuts but i do think the limits should be redused.
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Fish Assassin

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2005, 03:36:17 PM »

The limit for sockeyes in the Fraser is 2 but has not stop the meat fishermen from double dipping.
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dnibbles

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2005, 03:55:24 PM »

My solution to the problem,or at least to curb it; decide which fisheries are set aside as MEAT fisheries (Fraser sockeye maybe, Stave chum, whatever) and then decide which are sport fisheries (everthing else). Regulate leader length on your sport fisheries for coho, steelhead, etc to say 36". Open up your summertime floss fest, but have DFO call it what it is a SNAG fishery, but allow people to keep their two sockeye, regardless of how the angle them. If it's regulated as a harvest fishery, with the word SNAG attached to it.  In Alaska they do this, people can snag abundant runs in terminal areas. People can still go down to the Fraser and get their fish for the freezer, but a distinction is made that this is not a SPORT fishery. Then maybe rookies will not be fooled into thinking that this is the way that salmon are fished everywhere.
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Big Steel

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2005, 04:41:33 PM »

Cohokid I  do agree with you totally, but I think that a limit of one is a bit to low!!!!  For the price of gas, I think that a limit of two would be a bit better.  Now don't start calling me a meat fishermen because of this!!!!!  I could care less whether I catch a wild or a hatchery, I just like catching fish!!!!!  BUT, if I have a good day and get a fair amount of fish, I would probably like to keep a couple!!!!  I love eating fish!!!!  I like having barbecues, I use a fair amount of fish!!!!!  Infact since I suggested that maybe we have Salmon for Christmas dinner, we have had nothing but!!!!  Let me tell you, that take a lot of fish when there is about 20 people there!!!!!   All I am trying to say it that, I think that the limit is to high as well.   I was getting 6-7 hatchery coho everytime I went out like two years ago, only kept 4 in a day twice at the start of the year.  I felt that this was two much fish!!!!  After that the most I took was 2.  Sometimes I took nothing.  Depended on the need and which family member was asking for some!!!!  This year I have only taken home 3 hatchery so far.  The rest have been wild.   This doesn't bug me, I'm still getting fish. I also think that a reduction in the limit would keep some of the more honest one off the river, but there will always be those that double dip like they do on the Fraser!!!!  So it would help but at this point I don't now how much!!!!! ::) ::)
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Rodney

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2005, 04:44:53 PM »

i was wondering though if anyone thought of making up patches or the like that you got for a buck or free...i don't know, say's "Ethical fisherman" just that...when guys see it and ask you about it, you could tell them the story of snaggers, flossers etc. and explain that you are not one of these...don't know if it would help or not but if you charged a couple bucks for the patch you could you the money for educating guys on the proper way to fish. (might just be flyers at first but at least it would be something)

If a flyfisherman approaches you and explains to you that the only ethical fishing method is enticing a fish with a fly, would you accept his or her view?

Some people believe catch & release is cruel and a meaingless practice that only aims to torture fish for anglers' pleasure, would you agree?

Ethic is not the law. It is not absolute but constantly evolving as the society changes. The morals that people adopt since they were little differ from each other due to their family background, schooling and social interaction. The rights and wrongs cannot be distinctly separated, instead solutions are developed by civil discussions, like what we are doing right now. ;)

By identifying yourself as an ethical angler, you will simply be lablled as a purist/elitist by others who question, "Who granted you the angling authority to judge my fishing method?"

It's the perfect method to exclude others from learning what you would like them to know. This has been practiced in the past by some individuals who have not really made a difference if not made the situation worse.

I constantly remind myself to keep a good distance from the term "ethical angler", because I do not want to be known as that narrow minded person who apparently knows it all but actually doesn't, and chooses to dictate how others should fish. Instead I welcome those who want to know what has worked for me in the past, to share the knowledge that has been passed onto me. Whether others wish to use that knowledge or not is up to them, people should be given the opportunities to make decisions for themselves.

i figured this was what was happening and i honestly don't try and get into anyones face, it happens but I'm a pretty amicable guy all in all...

I think anyone would snap under such negative atmosphere, some just snap faster than others. Backing away maybe a hard one to swallow, but one needs to consider the outcome of the action that you choose to take. Arguing with others only result in three outcomes:

  • Both parties walk away after cooling down and ending up hating each other. No one learns from the experience.
  • One party physically assaults the other one, police are called and a good day of fishing ends.
  • One party is physically assaulted by the other one, a good day of fishing ends up at the hospital.

By walking away, you're not necessarily being ignorant to the problem. Instead, take the problem to those who can make a difference. If crowding becomes a serious issue that poses a threat to the anglers' safety, the fish stock etc, then new regulations will be implemented.

i think that they should reduse the limit of coho to 1 a day.

Would you like this rule change if you have to pay for your own car and gasoline? ;)

Daily quota is determined by the amount of hatchery fish expected to return and previous creel survey data. As long as the amount of hatchery fish meets the demand of angling participation, daily quota is not to be reduced. Everyone has to understand that, the purpose of hatchery fish in Southern BC is for harvesting, which would protect the wild stock.

I'm not too sure why there needs to be a distinction between meat and sport fishermen. People like to go fishing because they like to catch fish, as well as bring fish home to eat. Those who just want to eat fish, would only go to the market to buy fish. Again, this comes back to the lack of unity in the angling community. For some reason we have the urge to categorize ourselves in groups so we would seemingly feel better than others. Why is it so hard to realize that, everyone is out there for one reason - Fun?

The daily quota for pink salmon in the Squamish two years ago was one. Nina and I left in a hurry after we were crowded out by a few locals at 7:00am in July 2003. There was a huge line starting from the mouth of Mamquam River. Did daily quota of one reduce the crowd?

The daily quota for Fraser River sockeye salmon, as FA has brought up, is two. Thousands of people rush to the Fraser Valley as soon as it opens despite of the high cost of gasoline.

The problem that you are trying to solve, is the increasing number of violations. Just because a few people choose to violate fishing regulations, does that mean we need to reduce sportfishing opportunities? The solution that is absent most of the time is enforcement. Without enforcement, you can set your daily quota at one fish, people will continue to retain more than they can because they know that they will not be checked. Closing the river down would create a paradise for poachers as no anglers will be present on the river to report them in.

The reality is, we are utilizing a public resource that needs to be shared. Public resource is hard to manage, because no one wishes to take up responsibility of it. Fishermen have this fear that others will get to their spots first, get all the fish first. This fear usually builds up the gold rush effect, which results in the nastiness that people witness on the rivers all the time. The ideal management would be to go Euro - Privatize every watershed out there. Private owners have the responsibility to make sure their fisheries meet sustainability, which will draw anglers back. You have to fish the way they tell you to, or be prepared to take the consequences by the efficient enforcement. If crowding becomes a problem, how about time allocation? Anglers pay by the hour to fish, maximum three hours per day? Are you prepared to pay a daily access fee to fish your favorite rivers? I don't, I enjoy the current freedom in our fisheries. However, too many people take this for granted, which devalues what we still have.

It's not a simple issue, and the solutions are difficult to find, otherwise we wouldn't be scratching our head so much at meetings when this comes up everytime.

cohokid

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2005, 05:24:34 PM »

yes rodney, i do understand you piont, but honestly, i think that 2 coho maximum is plenty. And i do understand the gas thing, as i was going to release a coho that was still chrome but was darker then normal and my dad said it will be a good smoker, bonk it. for the gas we spent going out here, and my dad have a 454 7.3 litre big block chev and let me tell you 100$ to go to the vedder and back. so fish dont really pay for much of the gas, even if you limit out. the only fish that would pay for you gas would be sockey at 50$ a fish. But big steel does agree. at least 2 fish is sufficent enough for a person.  and now a days the chance of getting 4 coho in a day are slim so why not reduce it a little. not trying to come across as a little S**t head either. but this is my personal opinoin. :)
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Rodney

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2005, 05:37:54 PM »

Haven't you realized that minors on this forum cannot have an opinion? ;)

I agree with you and Big Steel that four is more than enough for those of us who fish regularly. How about those who make one trip a year from the interior down to the Vedder River? In my opinion, they should have the option of keeping four fish per person if they want to. For the rest of us, keep less to please you. :) The gas money comment was meant to poke fun at you mainly ;) , I just wanted to remind all that cost does play an important factor in sportfishing (trust me, it does, I have the studies sitting on the shelf somewhere, just have to find them).

The bottom line is, daily quota designation should be decided by the fishery managers. If the harvest opportunities are there, then they should be given. What you and I should be pushing for, is more permanent enforcement officers in our regions to enforce the existing regulations that can make a difference.

Oh yes, chrome fish are good for smokers, dark fish are nutrient for the river. ;)

cohokid

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2005, 05:47:18 PM »

if the fish is bright chrome then we smoke it, we dont keep rotters or anything. but if there bright chrome then we eat it at the table.

Dinner Table


Smoker..if it werent wild
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cohokid

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Re: suicide creek 11-16
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2005, 05:48:11 PM »

i meant if the fish isnt bright chrome. soorry my bad :(
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