Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: BC Salmon - an historical perspective  (Read 6571 times)

Morty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 411
BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« on: October 14, 2020, 11:23:46 AM »

In discussion about the harvesting rights and use of BC's salmon there are sometimes comments related to salmon, and some aboriginal groups, being here "forever".  I'd like to add another perspective to that.

Up until agrueably 9,000 to 12,000 years ago all of BC, including Vancouver Island, and parts of Washington State as far south as Seattle-Tacoma, were covered by the Cordilleran Ice Sheet.  Therefore there was logically no Fraser River during that time, and obviously no salmon in it.  And unless they lived on the harsh environment of the surface of a glacier, there were no aboriginal peoples here either.

After the melting of the glaciers "our" world famous salmon all came here from somewhere else.  So did the aboriginal peoples.  Neither has always been here!

The so-called 'First Nations' peoples were in fact here first and based on historical, universally accepted practices, relating to colonization they do have some special rights tied to their traditions.
Logged
"What are YOU going to DO about the salmon crisis?"

psd1179

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 731
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2020, 11:39:44 AM »

What caused the global warming at that time?
Logged

Dave

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3377
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2020, 02:54:45 PM »

What caused the global warming at that time?

Dinosaur farts
Logged

RalphH

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4862
    • Initating Salmon Fry
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2020, 03:14:15 PM »

Dinosaur farts

maybe you should seek medical help about that... ;D
Logged
"Two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity... though I am not completely sure about the Universe" ...Einstein as related to F.S. Perls.

RalphH

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4862
    • Initating Salmon Fry
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2020, 04:20:16 PM »

In discussion about the harvesting rights and use of BC's salmon there are sometimes comments related to salmon, and some aboriginal groups, being here "forever".  I'd like to add another perspective to that.

Up until agrueably 9,000 to 12,000 years ago all of BC, including Vancouver Island, and parts of Washington State as far south as Seattle-Tacoma, were covered by the Cordilleran Ice Sheet.  Therefore there was logically no Fraser River during that time, and obviously no salmon in it.  And unless they lived on the harsh environment of the surface of a glacier, there were no aboriginal peoples here either.

After the melting of the glaciers "our" world famous salmon all came here from somewhere else.  So did the aboriginal peoples.  Neither has always been here!

The so-called 'First Nations' peoples were in fact here first and based on historical, universally accepted practices, relating to colonization they do have some special rights tied to their traditions.


 First off - most of the First Nations and Aboriginal peoples of the America's have creation myths that have them created right where they are now ...or where in the case of those that were relocated. Certainly Europeans were not here "forever" or in Europe " forever". Fact is humans or more correctly Homo Sapiens has only been on earth for a very short period (about 1/4 million years) relative to the age of the planet and the time life has been on the planet.

Second the glaciers by their very nature destroyed whatever evidence of life, human and otherwise, that was on the parts of the earth immediately before they covered them.

During glacial periods ocean levels were hundreds of feet lower than currently since so much of the water in the water cycle was locked up in ice. People may lived along the margins of the glacial sheets where there was land just as there is in Greenland today. Evidence of such habitation that could be much older than current evidence would be covered under hundreds of feet of water.

The dates we have from evidence recovered is the oldest we have to date. It's not the final word though most archaeologists and geologists believe that is about the limit since the earliest human habitation evidence for Eastern Siberia isn't much older than the dates for North America.

No there wasn't a Fraser River but there was a Columbia River and salmon bearing rivers in Oregon. Most of Eastern BC's watersheds flowed south through the Columbia including the upper Thompson watershed. Likewise rivers of now inundated coastal margins also had salmon. (Greenland has rivers with huge populations of Arctic Char). Haida Gwaii was never glaciated and neither was much of Alaska  That's likely why the Fraser and other coastal rivers formed after the ice retreated were so quickly colonized by salmon. It also shoots your little 'theory' in the foot. (Not dead just wounded).

 FWIW most scientists now consider that we are still in an 'ice age' since there is permanent still present in many parts of the world including BC. Just go north of the Fraser valley and it is possible to enter an ice age zone. The cause of the ice age isn't well understood but seems to depend on 2 things; Milankovitch cycles; the wobble of the earth's axis every 23,000 years or so and the carbon cycle. Carbon that gets created by life gets bound up either in rock strata (ie oil and coal) or in the depths of the ocean. Glaciation also reduces carbon essentially making a larger portion of the earths surface more or less lifeless. The carbon that causes glacial retreat is thought to come from the carbon sinks in the depth sof the ocean. The glaciers move south to some limit and then melt releasing liquid water formerly bound as ice.  This corresponds to a warming part of the Milankovitch cycle.The melt water that enters the oceans, changes ocean currents and concentrates heat in the equatorial zones  and southern latitudes  pushing sequestered carbon out of the deep ocean carbon sink. At least that's a current theory. One thing that is fairly certain is that increases in atmospheric CO2 always lead (come before) dramatic rise of average global temperatures.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 08:06:46 PM by RalphH »
Logged
"Two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity... though I am not completely sure about the Universe" ...Einstein as related to F.S. Perls.

milo

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2106
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2020, 06:15:23 PM »

Either way you look at it, wild salmon would still thrive if it weren't for unfettered western capitalism based on quick profit and insatiable GREED.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 06:17:57 PM by milo »
Logged

RalphH

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4862
    • Initating Salmon Fry
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2020, 08:05:29 PM »

Either way you look at it, wild salmon would still thrive if it weren't for unfettered western capitalism based on quick profit and insatiable GREED.

BINGO!
Logged
"Two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity... though I am not completely sure about the Universe" ...Einstein as related to F.S. Perls.

wildmanyeah

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2018
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2020, 08:26:49 PM »

time immemorial
phrase of time
used to refer to a point of time in the past that was so long ago that people have no knowledge or memory of it.
"markets had been held there from time immemorial"
Logged

wildmanyeah

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2018
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2020, 08:36:16 PM »

Either way you look at it, wild salmon would still thrive if it weren't for unfettered western capitalism based on quick profit and insatiable GREED.

I think that’s largely debatable, even in arras of this planet that don’t have western capitalism and greed fishery stocks are depleted.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 09:34:51 PM by wildmanyeah »
Logged

Hike_and_fish

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 891
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2020, 10:19:18 PM »

There is a lot of evidence that suggests the "Ice sheet was well inland from the coast.
Logged

milo

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2106
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2020, 01:45:10 PM »

I think that’s largely debatable, even in arras of this planet that don’t have western capitalism and greed fishery stocks are depleted.

Well, let's debate it.
I will start by providing this short article:

https://www.nationthailand.com/edandtech/30386281

Some shocking (but positive) information in it. As the COVID-19 pandemic brought the hospitality industry (the main consumer of commercially caught fish and seafood) to a grinding stop, many commercial fisheries interrupted their activities.

The result? Marine life recovering, fish stocks increasing.

I think it was Ralph who long ago suggested that if the human race stopped commercial fishing altogether for 4 years, ocean fish stocks would probably manage to recover substantially, along with our salmon.
I tend to agree. In that respect, maybe the pandemic is a blessing in disguise. Time will tell.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 02:43:36 PM by milo »
Logged

firstlight

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1550
  • I'm a llama!
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2020, 03:13:14 PM »

I read that much of the First Nation population was started by Hawaiin and Polynesian settlers.

It would be good for the fish if there was stop on all fishing for any amount of time but unfortunately many of our fish disapear due to rogue ships taking everything and anything in International waters.
Ive been doing my part and havent caught a Salmon in about 4 years.lol
Logged

RalphH

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4862
    • Initating Salmon Fry
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2020, 04:31:00 PM »

I read that much of the First Nation population was started by Hawaiin and Polynesian settlers.



Really? Where? There is little or no evidence of any contact until the Kanakas came to BC from Hawaii in the 19th century. The Americas were settled over 8,000 years before Hawaii. There is some suggestion that some Haida reached Hawaii within the last couple hundred years.
Logged
"Two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity... though I am not completely sure about the Universe" ...Einstein as related to F.S. Perls.

wildmanyeah

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2018
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2020, 06:18:57 PM »

Well, let's debate it.
I will start by providing this short article:

https://www.nationthailand.com/edandtech/30386281

Some shocking (but positive) information in it. As the COVID-19 pandemic brought the hospitality industry (the main consumer of commercially caught fish and seafood) to a grinding stop, many commercial fisheries interrupted their activities.

The result? Marine life recovering, fish stocks increasing.

I think it was Ralph who long ago suggested that if the human race stopped commercial fishing altogether for 4 years, ocean fish stocks would probably manage to recover substantially, along with our salmon.
I tend to agree. In that respect, maybe the pandemic is a blessing in disguise. Time will tell.

You said western capitalism my point is that in areas of this world that are not governed by western  capitalism have still depleted their stocks. I was not arguing that eating fish is not an issue clearly it’s the main issue,
Logged

milo

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2106
Re: BC Salmon - an historical perspective
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2020, 07:12:23 PM »

You said western capitalism my point is that in areas of this world that are not governed by western  capitalism have still depleted their stocks. I was not arguing that eating fish is not an issue clearly it’s the main issue,

Forgive my ignorance, but which areas of our world today haven't fallen prey to globalization - the latest iteration of western-style capitalism? Since the dawn of the capitalist era, by means of colonization first, and globalization in the last few decades, capitalism's hunger for profit has been slowly, but surely, sucking the life out of our wilderness and oceans.

I urge everyone to watch David Attenborough's "A Life on Earth" (2020) on Netflix; It is his witness statement on what population growth and the market economy have done to our resources, especially since the advent of globalization.
Logged