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Author Topic: Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow  (Read 2623 times)

chris gadsden

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Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« on: May 30, 2004, 11:58:02 PM »

For those that were folowing the Kapp case re the First Nations pilot sales fishery that is being appealed by the Crown. The start of the 2 week appeal starts tomorrow in the Vancouver Court House.

The Sportsfishing Defense Alliance has been granted interving status and will be represented by their Lawyer during this appeal process.

A number of us will  be attending court tomorrow to view the first day of the preceedings.

The print and TV media should be covering this case.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2004, 12:28:44 AM by chris gadsden »
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otto

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2004, 07:41:28 AM »

Chris.....what is the Kapp case?  
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DragonSpeed

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2004, 09:47:57 AM »

Chris.....what is the Kapp case?  

Google can be your friend :D

See:

http://www.afn.ca/Media/2003/aug/august_20.htm

DragonSpeed

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2004, 10:31:55 AM »

jt

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2004, 01:48:56 PM »

it sounds interesting......if anyone here knows a bit about this case and would like to surmise it in english here that would be great. i treid to read the citation but legalese makes no sence to me.

jt.
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IronNoggin

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2004, 05:55:44 PM »

An attempt at the 'in a nutshell' description.

In August of 1998, 140 commercial gillnetters (amongst their ranks were aboriginal and non-aboriginal folks holding valid commercail licences for the area in question) held a protest fishery in Area 29 (Georgia Strait). The protest was held during a time when the area was closed to legally licenced commercial fishers, but WAS open for Pilot Sales Fisheries operated by three First Nations bands (Musqueam, Burrard and Tsawwassen Indian Bands). The purpose of the protest fishery was to  hopefully bring a constitutional challenge to the legality of racially segregated fisheries within BC.

The hope was realized, and Judge W. J. Kitchen was presented the case through April and May of 2003. In June of that same year, the Judge found in favour of the accused, and declared racially discriminate fisheries ILLEGAL! In his Reasons for Judgement, Kitchen concludes with: "The pilot sales program has not met this standard (referring to balancing the interests of all members of society); the program was misguided in conception and has been insensitively implemented and maintained..." "The most troubling aspect of this discrimination is that it is government sponsored..." "When racial discrimination or a semblance of it is identified, any continuance of it should not be permitted. The application is denied, and the charges are stayed, effective immediately." So charges against the protesters were dismissed, and the Pilot Sales program declared nonconforming with the Constitution and therefore illegal in nature.

This of course insensed First Nations groups who had become quite used to reliance upon these lucrative fisheries. In their anger, they turned the heat and the screws up on the Federal Government (who initiated the illegal sales and fisheries in the first place) to appeal the decision on their behalf. Our spineless Gov, instead of admitting to the original error, and in order to pacify the FN groups, agreed to do just that. And, now THEY (the Fed's) are.

From the AFN Statement: "I am pleased to see that the government is taking positive action to ensure our right to share in the fishery resources of Canada is respected and upheld, - Assembly of First Nations National Chief Phil Fontaine.

I believe this was actually more than somewhat focused upon in the original case, and the judge does indeed mention so. However, he based his decision at that time upon Equal Access and REAL sharing of the fisheries resources, as opposed to racially discriminated and thus preferentially segregated access to such fisheries (see last few paragraphs of the Reasons for Judgement).

It will be interesting to see the reasoning the Gov trots out for the appeal in light of the previous decision, and the next judgement that ensures.


So, how do YOU feel about that?

Nog
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jt

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2004, 06:54:24 PM »

Thanks IronNoggin.......


i just wrote a long reply to this topic but deleted it. I have pretty strong opinions on the subject but have to think more to articulate myself well. Basically i'm glad i have no say in the issue because there is no right answer on this case. All the parties involved in the case have a need for these fish....not just for livelyhood but culture as well. I think this court case is going to make some people very unhappy - not sure who but we'll find out. It's too bad because they all have good positions and deserve to continue the way they want. The true root of the problem is we've nearly killed our resources and the fight is on to see who will controll the last of it. i hope Soylent Green at least tasted good!

jt.
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otto

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2004, 07:59:14 PM »

thanks everybody for all the websites and info.......this case should be interesting in the next few months.
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chris gadsden

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2004, 09:14:11 PM »

A few of us were there this morning and the appeal at this level should go on for 2 more weeks. The Crown made their presentation today in court room 55. I was not very impressed with the presentation as she was using a lot of smoke and mirror talk. ???

As well it was very frustrating as was very hard to hear her. During the break I asked her if she could speak up but she said because she had a cold it was difficult to speak any louder. ::)

The Sports Fishing Defense lawyer will be most likely be presenting his case on Monday. If interested stop by the Court House at 800 Smithe.

IronNoggin

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2004, 10:22:34 PM »

THANKS for the update Chris! Sincerely appreciated!

Is there anywhere one can access the proceedings from afar (I'd guess likely not, eh?) or can you pass along anything in this regard? I wouldn't ask, but this particular one is close, and of extreme interest to me. I'm particulary curious just what the BASIS for the appeal is, considering who's launched it.

Wish I could stop by, that's for sure! But a lot of distance, and a lot of work related issues prevent that option for me.

Again, thanks, and please do let us know what you're able!

Cheers,
Nog
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chris gadsden

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2004, 05:11:43 AM »

I was not very impressed with the presentation as she was using a lot of smoke and mirror talk. ???

It's an appeal, these are the opening arguments.  There won't be much stuff said, just a brief introduction.

Quote
As well it was very frustrating as was very hard to hear her. During the break I asked her if she could speak up but she said because she had a cold it was difficult to speak any louder. ::)

Are the mic's turned off in the courtroom?  Before the proceedings begin, and the only people in there is the court clerk, her his/her attention and ask to have them turned on/up.  You also may want to sit closer. :)


The Crown's presentation was not going to be that brief. She spoke for all of the morning session and I was told she would speak in the afternoon and part of today's proceedings as well. Re the volume. I could not get much closer as was in the front row. All our people had a hard time to hear. Thought of moving into the empty jury boxes in order to hear better. ;D ;D

We did ask for more volume and it did improve some but the Crown Lawyer was not speaking loud enough and close to the mike but I thought they would be more sensitive than they were. One of our members were told that the mic's are just for recording the proceeding and not for sound. I find that hard to believe. Fulcrum_29 will know I am sure if that is true and should send him down to sort it out :D ;D.

I would like to go to more of the trial but is expensive for us to travel into Vancouver each day from Chilliwack, It cost me about $30 out of my own pockets yesterday for gas, parking, coffee,and sky train. Also did not have to buy lunch as our lawyer was kind enough to do that or that woulds have been another 10 to 12 dollars. Takes a few golf balls to make that up for a retired guy. ;D

And I am supposed to be retired and should be fishing which I plan to do today some where. Fish Assassin, prepare yourself for a report from me later today. ;D ;D

Speaking of lawyers it bothers me that the Government apparently pay's the First Nations lawyers and there was 10 of them along with associates there yesterday at I hear fom $500 to $1000 a day. :'(

They say they repay back when treaties are settled but to me too easy to just write this off then and no one is the wiser. ???

Comments from others???
« Last Edit: June 01, 2004, 05:32:45 AM by chris gadsden »
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chris gadsden

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2004, 05:29:41 AM »

THANKS for the update Chris! Sincerely appreciated!

Is there anywhere one can access the proceedings from afar (I'd guess likely not, eh?) or can you pass along anything in this regard? I wouldn't ask, but this particular one is close, and of extreme interest to me. I'm particulary curious just what the BASIS for the appeal is, considering who's launched it.

Wish I could stop by, that's for sure! But a lot of distance, and a lot of work related issues prevent that option for me.

Again, thanks, and please do let us know what you're able!

Cheers,
Nog
Check the above mentioned web sites for a back grounder on this case.

I heard former fishery Minister Thibault did not want the appeal to go ahead but the Justive Minister along with Chretian was pressured into it. This was what I was told there yesterday but not sure if this was true.

Also duing the break for lunch I got into 2 heated debate with one of the FOC lawyers (She was only observing  as well).I am afraid I blew up a bit too much as I told her how the government and department of Fishery should not be allowing all the illegal fishing that is and has been going on the Fraser for a number of years even during conservation concerns of some salmon stocks.

One of her replies was it is a very very compliacated matter. I said it is as complicated as the department wants to make it. I also added in our democratic society, laws should be obeyed by all. If the laws are wrong or not fair they should be changed in a court of law. Felt good to vent a bit and she has not heard the last of me as I will return to the proceedings hopefully next week. ;D ;D

Enough of this, time to get ready to get rolling along and go fishing. ;D ;D ;D

Also Iron Noggin their is a band from Port Alberni represented by 2 lawyers there as you most likely know, their also was a couple of gentlemen from PA  taking in the procceedings.

Just cooked up the 50 bugs I pumped after we attended the court proceeding yesterday. Do they ever look good. Should be taking them on a little trip to the Chehalis that opens today but is a little miserable in Chilliwack today so maybe put the trip on hold until tomorrow and catch up on some chores at home. May also try a trip up Merritt way later in the week to join Lew and Terry.

Sort of got hooked on that lake fishing with Nick a week ago. This time I will not have the expert along but I hear Lew and Terry have some hot chironmids I can steal. ;D ;D

Boy retirement is great. ;D ;D
« Last Edit: June 01, 2004, 11:13:58 AM by chris gadsden »
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fishersak

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2004, 11:15:42 AM »



I also wish to add my thanks to guys like Chris who work so hard to perserve our sport.  Where would we be without people like you!!

As for retirement, sounds to me like Chris is pretty busy as it is.  Just a new kind of job eh? ( and what could be more rewarding than providing for our children! )

Chris my kids will also thank you for all your work!

Thanks again, for all you do!
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chris gadsden

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2004, 10:59:49 PM »

Thanks guys but I just play a very small part in this as there is many others involved working to retain our great sport of fishing.

There is so many different organizations such as the Steelhead Society of British Columbia, The Drift Fishers, Fraser Valley Salmon Society, The Volunteer Hatchery Workers, Streamkeepers, Chilliwack River Action Committee, Chilliwack/Vedder River Cleanup Coalition and of course Rodney with all the organizations he promotes and works with.

Other forum members may want to list and reconize more that have the same goal as the above groups. I do not begin to know them all.


 One fellow that deserves a lot of credit is Bill Otway who spends countess hours not only with the Sports Fishing Defense Alliance but several other committees to keep all levels of Government accountable as much as possible.

Will try to kep you posted as the Kapp case continues but will not be attending all that many.

Off for 3 days of fishing for the rest of the week, need a rest fom meetings. ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: June 01, 2004, 11:09:23 PM by chris gadsden »
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chris gadsden

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Re:Kapp Appeal Case Starts Tomorrow
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2004, 06:17:07 AM »

For anyone interested The Sports Fishing Defense Alliance's lawyer will be making his submission to the Kapp appeak case this Friday.
I will not be able to attend because of this planned fishing trip.  

Keith was supposed to be up next Monday but now has been moved up for some reason. I am sure he will do us proud as we continue to protect our right to fish.

Will ut in a brief fishing report here as well


First day of fishing yesterday went poorly fish wise as could not temp a spring to taste my freshly cooked bugs.

On the plus side it was just a top drawer day as Shell Busey would say. ;D

A beautiful day to be on the water with good friend Gary.

Off to Merritt to join Lew and Terry for a couple of days of fishing, will be tough without guide Nick along and try to repeat the lovely fish I was able to get a couple of weeks ago. Will be enjoyable just the same. I hope they have some good tips for me before I rool out on to the water. ;D ;D ;D