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Author Topic: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton  (Read 23209 times)

aquapaloosa

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2012, 01:35:13 PM »

Quote
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=24760.msg234321#msg234321

This was a good thread.  I would not call your list "exhaustive".  It was 3 clicks likely.  highlight/copy/past. 
The thread is worth re-reading.  I like the part where the moderator steps in to delete some of Jon5's posts for their negative nature. 
I hope your donating jon5 ;)
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jon5hill

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2012, 03:51:37 PM »

And the personal attacks begin..

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jon5hill

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2012, 04:04:10 PM »

It doesn't matter how irrefutable the science behind population management, it is still trumped by politics. Just ask the Atlantic cod fishermen. So long as fishing pressure exists, it will take the last fish.

So we're just pretending to manage our fisheries? We employ hundreds of people with our tax dollars to pretend that they are actually doing something?

If we can all eat lentils or quinoa or tilapia and therefore don't need farmed salmon, why do we need a commercial fishery for salmon?

I suggested these are reasonable alternatives for humans to consume, I never said they should replace salmon on your dinner plate. Please don't put words into my mouth.


Can you point to a single successful standalone closed containment system for rearing salmon or explain how the laws of both biology and physics can be overcome sufficiently to make the practice possible?
Swift Aquaculture, Sweet Spring Salmon, Agrimarine has operations in BC and China

Since you believe they can operate on reduced profit, could you enlighten us as to what profit margins the "huge megacorporate complex" farming in BC are making?

I think you may have misinterpreted the point I was making. Our oceans cold recirculating salt water is being used at the expense of the many for the benefit of the few.





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jon5hill

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2012, 04:09:22 PM »

This was a good thread.  I would not call your list "exhaustive".  It was 3 clicks likely.  highlight/copy/past. 
The thread is worth re-reading.  I like the part where the moderator steps in to delete some of Jon5's posts for their negative nature. 
I hope your donating jon5 ;)

I'm not going to argue about the usage of the word exhaustive with you. If the correct application of an adjective and personal shots at me are the crux of your argument.. /golfclap
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM »

Quote
And the personal attacks begin..

I doubt the moderator is stepin' in on this one as they have with you previously.  You mentioned another thread, i replied about that thread.
Hardly personal.  A bit off topic ya.  I am sorry for that.

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jon5hill

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2012, 04:10:48 PM »

1. Read what I said, the money is for Morton's latest anti salmon farm attack.
2. If people are concerned about salmon infected with whatever virus she has found that particular day I gave them an opportunity to donate to this ridiculous cause.  I will not be donating - how about you?
3. And correct, I have no issue with eating fish carrying IHN .... been doing it for about 50 years, as has every other person who consumes Fraser River sockeye. 

Dave,

Do you eat atlantic farmed fish?
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2012, 04:13:27 PM »

Quote
Swift Aquaculture, Sweet Spring Salmon, Agrimarine has operations in BC and China

This reply fails to answers the question.
Quote
a single successful standalone closed containment system for rearing salmon or explain how the laws of both biology and physics can be overcome sufficiently to make the practice possible?

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Dave

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2012, 04:20:15 PM »

Dave,

Do you eat atlantic farmed fish?

Yes
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jon5hill

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2012, 04:35:32 PM »

This reply fails to answers the question.


There many recirculating and flow-through systems that are successful. A couple of well put together reviews of the various technologies are located on the farmed and dangerous website

http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/08_05_Closed_System_Aquaculture_summary.pdf

and

http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ClosedSystemAqua-FINAL.pdf
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Every Day

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2012, 05:27:16 PM »

Jon.

First of all if you don't think I know what a parasitic stage of copepod is, then you need to give your head a shake. How close in proximity were you sampling to these farms? How long did you observe the fish in NATURAL conditions (not hanging off the end of a dock in high densities and abnormal temps) to see if the sea lice had any effect? What methods did you use for sampling these fish? If you look at much of the research done, it clearly shows that all salmon after a certain size (which they attain in less than a wk of being in freshwater) can shake lice off or shed lice off without much of a negative effect.

If you don't think I have seen closed containment, then once again you need to give your head a shake. I worked in a brand new research recirculation facility funded by the government for 2 years while I went to VIU. I'm not saying closed containment fish farming can't be done. The problem is the cost associated with raising salmon. Freshwater fish are no problem, salt water fish are the problem. To transport salt water, chill it, etc is much too expensive. Even if they went to the measures to make all farms closed containment, the next thing you guys would be complaining about is the effluent.

Next, you say farms don't pay for anything at all? Many of these companies are the only reason there are eel grass beds being restored and/or being put into many estuaries. These companies constantly donate money for research to make less of an impact, and will try and help wild salmon as much as they possibly can by donating for research/restoration projects. If you don't believe me maybe look into it a little bit.

And your right, multi species integrated aquaculture is most definitely the way of the future. Many people are looking at raising fin fish in pens, surrounded by bivalves and seaweeds to filter out waste, and also having sea cucumbers at the bottom of the pens to filter out waste that drops to the ocean floor. Land based operations are using settling ponds with various plant species to help filter out waste (and to sell the plants) while they grow out fish.

And like I said... there are MANY places where they have scientists telling people not to fish on stocks, along with catch limits and such. In the end it all comes down to money and the government will ignore scientists and allow fishing any ways and people will poach, etc. If you're convinced that DFO will do a good job managing the stocks, then more power to you, but I would put trust in someone who says "too many fish will clog spawning grounds, we need to harvest a few million." Shows how educated they are eh.
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2012, 05:46:53 PM »

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aquapaloosa

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #71 on: May 28, 2012, 05:52:18 PM »

Everyday,

  Good for you for being part of that project.  It shows in your post that you know what you are talking about!

What project was it you were on?
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Every Day

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #72 on: May 28, 2012, 06:04:44 PM »

Everyday,

  Good for you for being part of that project.  It shows in your post that you know what you are talking about!

What project was it you were on?

I worked in the ICSS for practicum both years.
It involved working with sturgeon in a recirculation facility, setting up the facility, etc.

Learnt a lot about taking care of baby sturgeon.

As said before, growing FW fish such as sturgeon in a land based recirculation facility is more than possible, just SW fish are the problem. You also need to take into consideration the fact that you may lose your whole stock of fish over night in closed containment. During my time there we lost 8000 sturgeon almost over night due to a bio filtration failure causing high levels of Ammonia. Something like that in an industry setting would probably come close to shutting a company down, luckily for VIU they were just research fish.
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jon5hill

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #73 on: May 28, 2012, 06:08:38 PM »

How close in proximity were you sampling to these farms? How long did you observe the fish in NATURAL conditions (not hanging off the end of a dock in high densities and abnormal temps) to see if the sea lice had any effect? What methods did you use for sampling these fish?

As close as 35-50 meters from the farm, probably at Glacier Falls in the Broughton fish farm was the closest sampling site. I'm not sure what you mean by observing the fish in NATURAL conditions. There are no docks where samples were taken, I can assure you we didn't hang off the end of any docks to do our sampling...  ::). We were sampling juvenile pink and chum salmon in high density schools around pens using 130' x 8' beach seines. The methods were to sample entire schools with our seines. We were always successful in getting a school in its entirety. From the school we pursed the net and sub-sampled with large dip nets, transferred them into 60L holding tanks and then randomly selected individual fish from each with smaller dip nets. The juveniles were then put into plastic bags with just enough water for them to breath, then held up to a hand lens for parasite enumeration. Other information was taken from each juvenile (Species, FL, predator scars, motile-scars, etc). The fish then went into a recovery tank and afterwards returned to the ocean. Other work that had consistent results with ours was being conducted around our sampling sites and involved preserving fish in ethanol and enumerating lice by microscopy back at the lab.  

If you look at much of the research done, it clearly shows that all salmon after a certain size (which they attain in less than a wk of being in freshwater) can shake lice off or shed lice off without much of a negative effect.

You won't see any argument from me about this. We are, however, talking about juvenile salmon when we bring up the topic of farm-wild parasite transfer.. and juveniles don't migrate back to the fresh water..

If you don't think I have seen closed containment, then once again you need to give your head a shake. I worked in a brand new research recirculation facility funded by the government for 2 years while I went to VIU. I'm not saying closed containment fish farming can't be done. The problem is the cost associated with raising salmon. Freshwater fish are no problem, salt water fish are the problem. To transport salt water, chill it, etc is much too expensive. Even if they went to the measures to make all farms closed containment, the next thing you guys would be complaining about is the effluent.

What I glean from this is that you have experience working at a closed-containment facility, but also that it's not feasible because it is too expensive. Is the price of transporting salt water, chilling it etc worth the cost of imperiling our wild fish?

Next, you say farms don't pay for anything at all? Many of these companies are the only reason there are eel grass beds being restored and/or being put into many estuaries. These companies constantly donate money for research to make less of an impact, and will try and help wild salmon as much as they possibly can by donating for research/restoration projects. If you don't believe me maybe look into it a little bit.

Here you claim that the ONLY reason eel grass beds are being restored are because of fish farms. Fish farming companies improving wild habitat is largely a strategy to improve their public image. This is similar to what Kinder Morgan does with local streamkeeper organizations. Also - they aren't the only ones restoring eel grass beds, there are NGO's and other volunteer groups raising awareness and volunteering to preserve these types of habitats. One of the farm sites (Sir Edmund Bay) was ideal eel grass habitat, but there was a giant dead-zone around the farm. This farm was decommissioned by the end of our sampling season.

And your right, multi species integrated aquaculture is most definitely the way of the future. Many people are looking at raising fin fish in pens, surrounded by bivalves and seaweeds to filter out waste, and also having sea cucumbers at the bottom of the pens to filter out waste that drops to the ocean floor. Land based operations are using settling ponds with various plant species to help filter out waste (and to sell the plants) while they grow out fish.

We're on the same page here, it's what we should be doing..

And like I said... there are MANY places where they have scientists telling people not to fish on stocks, along with catch limits and such. In the end it all comes down to money and the government will ignore scientists and allow fishing any ways and people will poach, etc. If you're convinced that DFO will do a good job managing the stocks, then more power to you, but I would put trust in someone who says "too many fish will clog spawning grounds, we need to harvest a few million." Shows how educated they are eh.

I work for a regulatory agency, and an enormous amount of work is done each year to establish test fishery data complete with stock identification profiles based on genetic and scale-based racial analysis as well as hydroacoustic abundance estimates and other metrics to manage the fishery. The information is gathered in-season and management decisions are made with the most current data available. If you do not believe in the mechanisms in place to protect the resource, then you are the problem to begin with. I can't imagine living with such a pessimistic view about humanity.
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Fun with Mrs. Alaxandra Morton
« Reply #74 on: May 28, 2012, 06:12:18 PM »

Thanks for your response.  You would think that sturgeon would survive pretty much anything a closed containment failure would throw at them.  It seems even more complicated than I thought and I know a fair amount about it.
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