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Author Topic: Would you keep a mis-clipped?  (Read 5443 times)

Sandman

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2012, 06:59:44 PM »

No need to be sorry blade! I was out fishing on the weekend and ran across a CO so i thought i would ask. His response was the regs state a hatchery fish has its adipose fin missing and a healed scar in its place period. He states a fish with a partial adipose fin is not considered a hatchery fish and is considered wild and goes on to explain a deformed fin etc, it was quite a lecture. He stated exactly what the rules say in the regs and that is what he enforces. I suppose it depends on the CO , what kind of day he is having etc as to whether he writes a ticket or not.
It is clearly written in black and white, missing adipose and a healed scar. There is no in between written in the regs. So as i mentioned earlier there needs to be some work done on this and i think we all know which way its going to end up when the legal beagles get ahold of this, the rules will probably stay the same or even enhanced saying the whole fin must be removed and a healed scar in its place. It cant get any clearer than that.
you say this (if it's black and white you're looking for then "a healed scar in place of an adipose fin" is exactly what it says...where a digit was once in place no longer exist, but in it's stead the markings or 'scar' showing where it was removed. ???) We are talking about a partial fin in place and the balance a scar, you are sounding like the whole fin is missing here. I think a judge would say that if there was a partial fin there the fin is not missing it is partially missing just like cutting the tip of ones finger off.

Just wanted to share the CO'S opinon, not mine. So i would nt be bonking one, really how much risk is one willing to take for a fish its not worth it to me to lose all my gear and get a ticket..  ::)

The point blaydRnr was making regarding the "plain meaning" rule is that just as the regulations do not say a "partially removed fin" neither does it say an "entirely removed fin."  It refers to the presence of a healed scar in the place of a fin.  If you look at Rod's photo, even though the fin is not entirely removed, the part that is removed is replaced by a healed scar.  To suggest that a partially removed fin with a healed scar (this is NOT a deformity, it is a scar), is not a hatchery fish is just trying to make an excuse to write a ticket (they get to write so few of them). Once again, I assert that the mis-clipped fish is indeed a hatchery fish and so you need not feel bad if you kill it (it was bred for you to do so), however, I would not suggest you do so, as you could find yourself having to defend your decision in front of a judge who may or may not agree with you.  What we really need is someone to be charged and take it to the Supreme Court to have the precedent set.  If you are ever charged, I would be happy to act as your defense council.  My will to continue teaching is being drained these days. 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 07:02:17 PM by Sandman »
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Sandy

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2012, 10:25:35 PM »

and as I was told yesterday, "don't let me catch you with one" and if you are having difficulty understanding the written stuff ,there are a couple of diagrams to look at. I got the feeling this very nice fella  ;D was tired of the question. I for one will be glad when a clarification comes forth, whatever it is.
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blacktail2

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2012, 09:26:03 AM »


@ Sandy i take it you had a chat with a CO recently? Seems he is getting a little tired of answering the same question .. and has a bit of an attitude. Yes what we need is clarification and i have a feeling there will be a small change that states the whole adipose must be removed and in its place a healed scar, thats where they will go with that one. Too bad we are getting these mixed messages from the agencyy that we rely on to enforce blatant violations, but i guess up until this time they feel what they have in writing is sufficient. I totally disagree with this and its too bad they can let their personal feelings and attitude influeance their enforcement decsions.

@ Sandman thanks for the clarification about the point blaydRnr was trying to make. I just wanted to share a less than pleasan  experiance i had with a CO while i was out fishing and asked him the question about a mis clipped fin. He made me feel like i was asking a silly question even after i said i wanted some clarification on the regs and i was a bit of a bother by asking, he even said how do i know it is not a deformed fin???  We all know what a healed scar is. It sounds like Sandy had a similiar experiance, and maybe Rod is lucky he didnt run into the CO i was speaking to or the one Sandy spoke to.

We do need a clarification on this and we need our enforcement team to come together and make uniform decsions.. I myself personally think these are mis clipped hatchery fish and meant to be bonked if so desired but i wont be taking one should the opportunity arise thats for sure. Be just my luck i would run into the same CO that i spoke with.





and as I was told yesterday, "don't let me catch you with one" and if you are having difficulty understanding the written stuff ,there are a couple of diagrams to look at. I got the feeling this very nice fella  ;D was tired of the question. I for one will be glad when a clarification comes forth, whatever it is.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 09:33:13 AM by blacktail2 »
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blaydRnr

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2012, 05:06:59 PM »

Thank you Sandman for clarifying what i was trying to relay. My goal was not to promote Steelhead as a meat fishery, but to point out the legality of harvesting fish that is intended to be 'marked brood stock' as part of the hatchery program.  Semantics should not play a role or be used to misconstrued the intent of identification where human error has proven time and time again to affect the outcome. Common sense obviously has not prevailed, that's why in some States they use the Adipose Recognition Program and in others, they simply reworded the regulation.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 05:11:19 PM by blaydRnr »
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Rodney

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2012, 05:29:44 PM »

Nice to see a lengthy discussion on this as I had expected when I decided to post this. :) It gets people talking and identifying some key problems that may need to be looked at. I dispatched this fish with full confidence that we would not be fined, because we are fit and can outrun any CO... ;D No, actually it's because we've worked closely with the hatcheries and COs in this area, so we know what the expectations are when it comes to what are legal and illegal. Skaha does bring up a good point, and it's something I practice constantly. For this website's information to be credible, I have to make sure that the decisions I make are correct, or at least do our best anyway (occasionally we slip up ;D ). Overall I wanted to know what other anglers' decisions would have been and Sandy has gone further to obtain a few opinions from the ministry. IMO, even though we retained this fish, I am in full support of only allowing the retention of fish with the adipose fin removed completely to avoid similar scenarios.

Sandy

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2012, 06:21:49 PM »

@ Sandy i take it you had a chat with a CO recently? Seems he is getting a little tired of answering the same question .. and has a bit of an attitude. Yes what we need is clarification and i have a feeling there will be a small change that states the whole adipose must be removed and in its place a healed scar, that's where they will go with that one. Too bad we are getting these mixed messages from the agencyy that we rely on to enforce blatant violations, but i guess up until this time they feel what they have in writing is sufficient. I totally disagree with this and its too bad they can let their personal feelings and attitude influeance their enforcement decsions.

@ Sandman thanks for the clarification about the point blaydRnr was trying to make. I just wanted to share a less than pleasan  experiance i had with a CO while i was out fishing and asked him the question about a mis clipped fin. He made me feel like i was asking a silly question even after i said i wanted some clarification on the regs and i was a bit of a bother by asking, he even said how do i know it is not a deformed fin???  We all know what a healed scar is. It sounds like Sandy had a similiar experiance, and maybe Rod is lucky he didnt run into the CO i was speaking to or the one Sandy spoke to.

We do need a clarification on this and we need our enforcement team to come together and make uniform decsions.. I myself personally think these are mis clipped hatchery fish and meant to be bonked if so desired but i wont be taking one should the opportunity arise thats for sure. Be just my luck i would run into the same CO that i spoke with.








and as I was told yesterday, "don't let me catch you with one" and if you are having difficulty understanding the written stuff ,there are a couple of diagrams to look at. I got the feeling this very nice fella  ;D was tired of the question. I for one will be glad when a clarification comes forth, whatever it is.




100% agree with you Blacktail.


« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 06:35:32 PM by Sandy »
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Sandy

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2012, 06:36:22 PM »


Nice to see a lengthy discussion on this as I had expected when I decided to post this. :) It gets people talking and identifying some key problems that may need to be looked at. I dispatched this fish with full confidence that we would not be fined, because we are fit and can outrun any CO... ;D No, actually it's because we've worked closely with the hatcheries and COs in this area, so we know what the expectations are when it comes to what are legal and illegal. Skaha does bring up a good point, and it's something I practice constantly. For this website's information to be credible, I have to make sure that the decisions I make are correct, or at least do our best anyway (occasionally we slip up ;D ). Overall I wanted to know what other anglers' decisions would have been and Sandy has gone further to obtain a few opinions from the ministry. IMO, even though we retained this fish, I am in full support of only allowing the retention of fish with the adipose fin removed completely to avoid similar scenarios.



I suspected that's what you were up to Rod. Remember you only need to outrun Nina , works for bears too.

I have heard rumours of this and kinda questioned the logic. I will say this my concern is and was that wild Steelhead may bonked due to missidentification as being mis-clipped but really accidentally or Adipose fins. What happens when this precedent is then taken to other fisheries and species?
 We end up with valuable resources tied in a litigious system. All for the want of a very few an precise words : COMPLETLY MISSING  and HEALED SCAR. This not open to interpretation and I am pretty sure that the regs of a decade or two back made this very point.

I blame no-one, as this to me appears to be a problem that evolved through a system that is broken, in that communication from the field is not being processed and acted upon by the Ministries adviser's in Victoria and or direction from Victoria is not being acted upon in the field. We hear much about simplification of the regs , but all this does is infact complicate everything.

I can tell you this, I got into a spot reglarty trouble years ago. I worked in the a particular area closely watched by ministry staff and police. I then moved to work in another area doing exactly the same job of with the same methodology, then I found out that what was being doing under guidance was not cosher. I knew what I was doing was questionable but trusted that the Authority at site knew better.
Almost cost me all I owned, but fortunately a "staffer" was able to reason things to a satisfying end, with a "you should have read the regs and act" cost me nothing but a wack of ego.



appologies for butcher job !
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 06:42:50 PM by Sandy »
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bigblue

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2012, 07:00:02 PM »

Nice to see a lengthy discussion on this as I had expected when I decided to post this. :) It gets people talking and identifying some key problems that may need to be looked at. I dispatched this fish with full confidence that we would not be fined, because we are fit and can outrun any CO... ;D No, actually it's because we've worked closely with the hatcheries and COs in this area, so we know what the expectations are when it comes to what are legal and illegal. Skaha does bring up a good point, and it's something I practice constantly. For this website's information to be credible, I have to make sure that the decisions I make are correct, or at least do our best anyway (occasionally we slip up ;D ). Overall I wanted to know what other anglers' decisions would have been and Sandy has gone further to obtain a few opinions from the ministry. IMO, even though we retained this fish, I am in full support of only allowing the retention of fish with the adipose fin removed completely to avoid similar scenarios.

I hope Rodney's comments would bring to rest this topic and prevent over eager fisherman from interfering with harvest of hatchery fish on Vedder River. Last month a fishing buddy of mine had to let go of a mis-clipped hatchery as one of the guys on the flow insisted that retention of a mis-clipped was illegal. I personally believe that nothing good can come from a hatchery (or suspected hatchery fish) breeding with a wild fish on the Vedder as it does have a large and stable population of wild fish present. 
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typhoon

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2012, 08:00:13 PM »

I hope Rodney's comments would bring to rest this topic and prevent over eager fisherman from interfering with harvest of hatchery fish on Vedder River. Last month a fishing buddy of mine had to let go of a mis-clipped hatchery as one of the guys on the flow insisted that retention of a mis-clipped was illegal. I personally believe that nothing good can come from a hatchery (or suspected hatchery fish) breeding with a wild fish on the Vedder as it does have a large and stable population of wild fish present. 
How did you get that from Rod's comment or the rest of this thread?
I read that the word of the regulations is clear - the adipose must be MISSING with a healed scar - but that the interpretation of an individual CO may let it slide.
Several posters on this thread feel that they law does not apply to them because it is their OPINION that any marked adipose is a legal hatchery fish.
Also I think you would have a hard time convincing anyone that there are true wild genes in any wild fish on the Vedder.
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Sandy

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2012, 09:00:44 PM »

How did you get that from Rod's comment or the rest of this thread?
I read that the word of the regulations is clear - the adipose must be MISSING with a healed scar - but that the interpretation of an individual CO may let it slide.
Several posters on this thread feel that they law does not apply to them because it is their OPINION that any marked adipose is a legal hatchery fish.
Also I think you would have a hard time convincing anyone that there are true wild genes in any wild fish on the Vedder.

Dave might be able to help us with that one. I understand that there is residual wild stock in the upper reaches, as for their purity I heard their was a DNA study done on some in the last several years. I have no idea how baselines for comparison would be established, unless there is genetic or other samples available that were taken before the establishment of the hatchery to campare with. I don't know ,maybe Dave or others in the know can answer.
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finding your limits is fun, it can also be VERY painful.

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blaydRnr

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2012, 10:18:19 PM »

How did you get that from Rod's comment or the rest of this thread?
 
Several posters on this thread feel that they law does not apply to them because it is their OPINION that any marked adipose is a legal hatchery fish.
 

Likewise with you, Where did you get the idea that anyone is suggesting the law does not apply to them? This thread is about clarity of the regulation and people's interpretation of what the officials themselves can't seem to agree on. Like you mentioned people are giving their opinions based on research and communications with the ministry. No one thus far has promoted or advocated doing anything that would suggest otherwise. Remember, there's a difference between giving an opinion and making out right accusations.


In response to this never ending debate, I too have emailed the Ministry of Fisheries to try and get some clarity on this topic... My little part in doing more than just talking.... Hopefully, I will receive some form of feedback because calling the DFO hotline is like trying to get through Shaw Cable.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 11:02:25 PM by blaydRnr »
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bigblue

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2012, 11:05:26 PM »

Likewise with you, Where did you get the idea that anyone is suggesting the law does not apply to them? This thread is about clarity of the regulation and people's interpretation of what the officials themselves can't seem to agree on. Like you mentioned people are giving their opinions based on research and communications with the ministry. No one thus far has promoted or advocated doing anything that would suggest otherwise. Remember, there's a difference between giving an opinion and making out right accusations.

X2. Unless regulation is amended to make it more clear, both fisherman and COs will continue to make their own interpretations.
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Dave

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2012, 08:10:42 AM »

Dave might be able to help us with that one. I understand that there is residual wild stock in the upper reaches, as for their purity I heard their was a DNA study done on some in the last several years. I have no idea how baselines for comparison would be established, unless there is genetic or other samples available that were taken before the establishment of the hatchery to campare with. I don't know ,maybe Dave or others in the know can answer.
DNA samples are being taken regularly now but as you mention Sandy, there is scant baseline data to compare this to.  No doubt there are old scale samples archived somewhere but if their storage was not optimal they may be useless for accurate comparisons. 
Are there still pure wild steelhead in the Chilliwack?  I don't think anyone can say for sure but I can tell you this - the fish we observe spawning during our enumerations certainly act as wild as any other salmonids we have seen. 
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typhoon

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2012, 10:45:08 AM »

I don't think anyone can say for sure but I can tell you this - the fish we observe spawning during our enumerations certainly act as wild as any other salmonids we have seen. 
Were you expecting the hatchery fish to act all privileged?
"This place is filthy. I'm not spawning until you clean up that gravel"  :P
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troutbreath

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Re: Would you keep a mis-clipped?
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2012, 02:16:51 PM »

I guess that's the kicker they were "acting".  ::) Trying to fool people.
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another SLICE of dirty fish perhaps?