Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dave]

liketofish, the catch data you trot out from the chinook Albion test fishery is as mentioned earlier next to useless when it comes to determining numbers of successful spawners.  And that's the bottom line as these stocks, like most Fraser sockeye, are bottoming out. 
Do some research on this….  Start with Nicola – Coldwater stocks, then check out North Thompson tribs, then Chilcotin/Quesnel/Nechako/Blackwater tribs.  After that try the upper Fraser River tribs like the McGregor, Willow and Bowron.    Dismal counts.
Some systems down to less than 20 spawners.
 
However, the value of the test fishery at Albion is considerable as it supplies a measure of long term trends in stock origin and perhaps more importantly, run timing. Albion is the most downstream data point available between the estuary and natal stream.  Back when I was involved in this stuff, all chinook at Albion were sampled for length and weight, scales, otoliths, DNA, tags, visible hatchery marks, parasite load, etc to determine their stream of origin.  Over years this data provides a pretty good snapshot of in- river stocks and where they are heading.  Spawning ground data is correlated with all this.

Add to this, steelhead catches in September/October determine whether or not the Thompson will open to angling.  Pretty important stuff to many people.

 For sure it would be great to have a better means of determining actual chinook/steelhead numbers entering the lower Fraser but the reality is Albion is all that is available. Perhaps in the future FN fisheries could supply much of this data but for now that is not funded.

18° C is when sockeye, and to a lesser degree chinook, start to show signs of decreased mobility and increased sub lethal stress indicators. Sadly, the timing of this July 16 opening coincides with Fraser River temperatures predicted to reach 18.5° C.  This combined with an app. 25% decrease in historic average flow means even faster temperature rises if the summer proves to hot.

Scary times to be a Fraser River salmon but perhaps a great time to be an ethical angler.

[alwaysfishn]

......... but perhaps a great time to be an ethical angler.

You had a great post until you made that comment.....  it was unnecessary and inflammatory. 

[liketofish]

I agree. It is not necessary to bash others as unethical fishermen if they don't agree with you. Like I said before, most seasoned fishermen are concerned with fish stocks, regardless of their style of fishing. It is only a matter of trusting the government or not. By the way, who trust the government nowadays.   

My question is, if DFO could open the Chinook fishery on June 1st in years past with much lower test fishery count (you don't mean they counted much more fish in spawning streams at comparable time in those low count years, do you?), why they delay opening this year when the test number is much higher and other areas down south are reporting historic catches, and this happens exactly right after the sockeye crash? Doesn't it smell fishy on DFO's motive to close/delay the fishery? Science or PR? And where are all those higher-count fish this year heading? If not the spawning streams, it will be in some illegal or legal nets. If the counts are so pitiful, why open drift nets? If conservation is a higher mandate than native fishery, why cave in to open more massive killings of these endangered stock? Agrue all you want. These are unsettling questions regarding DFO's management. One thing for sure, if any one wants to be DFO's poster boy, be my guest. 

[alwaysfishn]

My guess is it is both conservation and politics. The argument from the natives over the years has been "why do they need to pull out their nets while the sporties are still allowed to fish? They have not only asked the question but have challenged it in court as well. By closing the river to the sporties that argument is taken away from the natives.

That being said I would bet that the vast majority of the sports fishermen out there are not aware that the natives are still netting nor are they aware of the test set numbers. As a result it is an easy decision for DFO to disallow sporties any fishing opportunity on the Fraser at this time.

[Riverman]

True it is an argument.That is however just what it is.If there is a conservation concern it trumps all rights.That was settled in court.if priority is being given to one group over another then that is just an unfair curtailing of one groups freedom for cynical political reasons.The Natives lost the court case to keep us off the river now it is being done despite that ruling.The river is a shared resource and if there is no legitimate reason for dis-enfranchising one group to cater to another, it needs to stop!

[Every Day]

True it is an argument.That is however just what it is.If there is a conservation concern it trumps all rights.That was settled in court.if priority is being given to one group over another then that is just an unfair curtailing of one groups freedom for cynical political reasons.The Natives lost the court case to keep us off the river now it is being done despite that ruling.The river is a shared resource and if there is no legitimate reason for dis-enfranchising one group to cater to another, it needs to stop!

Like I said before, be happy you even get to fish this year.

Like Dave said, some runs are down to 20 or so fish. Yes the natives are taking a lot of fish but from DFO's views, allowing thousands of more anglers on the river will have that much further of an impact. Besides, we all know that (most likely) more than 50% of the fisherman out there are going to be flossing. The early Stuart run of sockeye is in fairly bad shape. In DFO's eyes, opening the river will probably mean a lot more by-catch and harassment of these early runs. Add in the fact of how many of these fish are treated on release and they may as well have been in a net.

Complain all you want about how natives get their traditional netting rights. DFO ALWAYS opens it up to them first, and then allows a sport fishery after if there are enough numbers of fish, it has always been that way and we are just realizing it now because there are less fish to go around and we want more of them. May not seem fair in anyones eyes but fishing isn't a right, it's a privilege. What makes the Fraser so special to you? Why don't you just go fish some of the other rivers that are open for chinook retention?

[liketofish]

It is not the point whether I fish or not. I don't raise this thread so I can go fishing if I win. Are we really that silly to think that things we discuss here will change DFO. Be real? I am too busy watching World Cup  anyway. Who need to fish under these hot days when one can be watching the beautiful game in air-cond?  

The point is that DFO is not justified to shut down the sporties only, if the spawning counts are too low. It is their mandate to conserve stock. If the low spawning counts are used to shut fisheries down, and if we are down to few fish as Dave said it, then why the heck open the nets and let the nets kill the few fish left? But if they use the test fishery instead to decide opening of closing, on what justification is the closure or delay opening is based on? If not, then it is based on PR and based on protecting some job security. It can set a bad pattern in the future when DFO can summarily close fisheries to the sporties with or without justifications.

If you are happy with DFO, be my guest. I am not. Let's just respectfully disagree. Where one chooses to fish is highly personal thing. If you like to catch trout, and if DFO said they close out all lakes except those stocked ponds in the city, will you want to settle with that? And if this happen after you already buy license to catch trouts in merrit lakes, aren't you pissed about it? Likewise, if I like to fight the beasts of the Fraser springs with their exciting runs, I am not sure I want to fish those in the smaller systems, as much as you don't enjoy the stock ponds.

[Every Day]

I am not happy with DFO at all. I would love to see a lot of things changed about how they run our fisheries, etc starting with making fish farms land based. We will never get what we want, but complaining about a closure to actually do their job and protect stocks doesn't do anyone any good.

I don't think you are quite listening to what I am saying. The FN have ALWAYS and will ALWAYS get first dibs at the fish. This means if there is 20 000 fish over the escapement target the FN will get those fish and no one else. DFO only open the river up to sporties if there are enough fish after the FN allotted slots.

Dave also mentioned the valuable information achieved by using the Albion test nets. It is the lowest part in the river below all the tribs. They can find out how old every fish is, where they are heading, what run timings are for that particular river, build trends, etc by using the fish caught in the net. It is not only about having numbers to justify whether or not to open the system. I can tell you undeniably that these numbers in the Albion do nothing to show the numbers of the run, if you had access to some fish counting stations on the Fraser you would know this.

You can get just as good of a fight out of a spring in other river systems as you do in the Fraser. Fighting without that extra 16 oz of weight also lets them be more acrobatic and such. I personally will go wherever I can to have a chance at a fish and will use gear that will provide the same fight as if I was using a bar rod with a massive weight in the Fraser. Downsize the gear and you would be surprised how much different fish fight.

[jetboatjim]

if the interior tribs are in such dispare why do they allow the natives to fish them if there is only 20 ? I have seen netting/snagging and gaffing on some small tribs in the interior that have very few chinook.
perhaps the lower closures are not the biggest part of the problem.

its easy to sit here behind the computer screen, but sad to say 95% of you complaining dont and will not ever do anything positive about it.


I read it on the net or heard it from "my buddy" that works for DFO, is just pain hogwash.

[liketofish]

This is exactly what I am saying. Why let the natives fish when you are down to 20 spawners. If the low count on the trib is used for closure, then how on earth they know that there will be more coming to cover for the FN share? Isn't it too much a gamble on the stock? Isn't that what happened to the sockeyes?  We would love to have the sockeyes FN caught last year swimming in the spawning streams rather than on some body's plates. You are missing the point EveryDay. FN should not fish if there is a conservation concern. They are not always entitled to fish if the numbers are not there. So according to Dave & you, should DFO open the nets when the tribs are down to survival line?

But if the test fishery is used to judge opening and closing, then the return number is higher than any of the last few years. July 10 had 50 fish. That is after July 4 had 45 and some 30 fish days before that.  Since you don't fish the Fraser for springs, I will excuse you for your ignorance about that number. For those of us who fish the river and had used that number to help us plan the trip, that is a huge number for a day's test catch. The river literally had waves and waves of springs when those test numbers reported.

Contrary to what my postings may be perceived, I am not even too keen on fishing the Fraser when it opens. Why, just don't want to unnecessarily harrrassed most of the fish which probably are bigger than the minimum size of 77 cm. Springs fight a lot harder than sockeyes, and a tired out big mama will probably not make it to spawning ground. Why put the fish through all that if not intending to keep. I am not a c/r guy and I see no justification to put a fish through all that just for my pleasure. So I am going to wait. 

But with all the big test number, is it still a bad year for Fraser springs? Believe it. I don't. By the way, I am not a bar-fisher. Let the lead-bomb group answer why using the lead bombs  

[Every Day]

I'm not ignorant of how many fish are coming through the river... in fact I know the estimates of how many have. Yes there are a lot coming through, and it has been taking a while to count them all 

I will just leave this discussion as is. I personally don't disagree with DFO's decision to shut down the river. Yes there are nets (which I do disagree with, but have come to the realization that there is nothing we can do about that) but every fish counts. I am happy fishing other areas for rainbows and cutties, or the occasional summer steely or red spring to worry about the Fraser.

[ChromeBar]

We all disagree with the nets but we all say they same thing... there's nothing we can do There's gotta be some way to stop it i'm not sure what but there's gotta be a way. There's so many people against it and we all know it bad.

[skaha]

--there are perhaps better methods of selective harvest such as the use of weirs, pens or artificial channels which allow for better managed escapement of none target species. These methods may even provide better counts for management purposes.

--Maybe some would accept a more ceremonial traditional fishery with main for food fishery supplemented by...land based closed penned or trade of fish and quota from other geographic areas.
 
--Some Interior First Nation Bands will fish lakes and rivers with very few fish taken in order to assert their traditional territories and rights to fish. These values and rights need to be preserved.

--Peoples attitudes change, concensus negotiation is possible.

[alwaysfishn]

--Maybe some would accept a more ceremonial traditional fishery with main for food fishery supplemented by...land based closed penned or trade of fish and quota from other geographic areas.
 
--Some Interior First Nation Bands will fish lakes and rivers with very few fish taken in order to assert their traditional territories and rights to fish. These values and rights need to be preserved.

--Peoples attitudes change, concensus negotiation is possible.

Wow you need to get out more.....    While there may be some of the traditional stuff going on in some of the remote areas in the province, around the lower mainland it is all about economic opportunity. At the risk of generalizing, most of the fish caught by natives on the lower Fraser hit the market. When money is involved greed is involved. Where greed is involved the individuals don't give a d@mm about conservation, selective harvest or sustainability. After conservation excapements are met the natives know they are next in line and the more they take the less are left for any other user groups! Why should they care??

The only way to manage the situation is with strict laws and strict enforcement. The government hasn't got the will to do that, because in the background they are trying to settle the land claims. Every time DFO tries to enforce the rules they get taken to court by the natives.  Another thing to thank Trudeau for, with his rights and freedoms amendment!

[Matt B.]

im not from around here, but from what ive seen i think there would be more fish if no one could net them in the river not even the natives