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[Every Day]

liketofish

Where do you get the 2% from? I truthfully believe that we sporties take a heck of a lot more fish then we would like to think. I know a lot of people that could easily wack their 4 springs a day during the July period, how many people are out there on a given day? You may not think that the 100's of bar fishers out there are doing nothing to hurt the stocks, but I personally think that they get a lot more of the % then you are lead to believe.

Example... Say 10 guys go into a small stream like the Coquihalla. They fish 10 days and each take a fish per day, you've now pretty much wiped out that whole run. What we are doing now on the Fraser is not the exact same, but it is happening on a larger scale at a slower rate. The other part is that some of these early springs you catch may indeed be part of an endangered run where the fish only umber in hundreds in that river, in that case EVERY fish counts.

Saying this run is healthy is not a very good justification either. You are comparing these numbers to the 2 years previous. Unless you've missed a lot of time out on the water you would know stocks have been collapsing drastically for 4 years. O goody, we have 50 more fish in a net then the year previous which wasn't a good year. Problem is that we keep adjusting numbers, keep lowering the mandatory escapement numbers so that we can say "O look, we are at normal levels and we have enough fish to go around." And by the way... Americans put a hell of a lot more money into hatchery programs. The Columbia is HEAVILY enhanced and they release unreal amounts of smolts, so you would think eventually some of those would have to go back.

I am far from being a PETA member, and I am FAR from being behind the netting that the natives get to do. My personal opinion is that if they want to net their "traditional" mounts, they should have to use their "traditional" methods like using a canoe with a dip net, or a bark net rather then the huge gill/drift nets and motor boats they have out now.

Last thing I'll leave with is that you say you could not lay down your rod for 8 years for the run to recover, and that you would no longer fish and buy a licence when it re-opens. I would rather lay down my rod for 8 years and hit up some lakes, etc then watch the salmon go right into extinction and never have a chance to fish for them again unless I do road trips to Alaska.

[liketofish]

2% is always a number thrown around for the take of the recreation sector. If you read enough about this kind of info on user groups harvest, this number comes out. I am not going to debate you based on an exact %, but it does not take rocket science to know that sporties with one rod and one hook are not going to hurt fish stock as compared to when other groups are using nets.

Like I say, some forum members always lay blame and guilt on others who wish to have better or fairer fishing opportunities, and blame them for causing fish stock collapse. This is silly indeed in the bigger picture of things.

4 springs per day? I have never seen it happened with any body that I know. Many spring trips are skunked as a norm. People just want to have a fair chance to catch a fish, to have a day out to the river, but very few actually catch a spring on the bars. So I don't know how real is the figure. To use such extreme example is not being fair to your fellow fishermen, I think. Even on good days on any popular bar, it is rare to see more than 30 fish taken in total, and that is with weekend crowd. At least that is my experience.

Anyways, the thread is not about ethics, but about return numbers and ocean survival, which test fisheries plus catches in other areas can give a glimpse of the return. Yes, the Americans had much more stocking and money, but their returns were not always as high. This article from down south tells the bright picture:

 http://www.tri-cityherald.com/2010/06/26/1070608/columbia-salmon-fishery-fit-for.html

The columbia return was a disappointment last year but not this year. There are so many fish out there in the ocean that they predict 650K fish return, which is 250K more than last year. Our test fishery is also way more than before (2 times more than 2008). So if we could open the fishery as scheduled on June 1st 2 years ago, why delay it till July 15 this year when the numbers are much higher.

Everyday, I respect your concern for fish stock conservation. Most seasoned anglers are. If DFO is sincere about protecting the endangered run of some small stocks, why the heck they allow the nets now? Isn't conservation concern a higher mandate than FN food fishery? If some run can be endangered by guys with a rod & hook, it can be wiped out for sure by hundreds of nets.That is the hypocrisy about the whole thing.

I happen to believe that DFO is again using the shutting down of a small impact group (the sporties) as always for public consumption that they are doing something to conserve stock but in reality our impact is minimal. I support shutting down all user groups if some endangered run is running, like the Stuart sockeye run. If not, open it when the numbers are higher than prior years and other areas are reporting historic return. Stop playing PR or political game. That is my 2c.

[kingpin]

i dont think anyone is taking 4 fish...only 1 adult can be taken and i highly doubt any flossers are getting jacks...maybe the odd bar guy.

2% is not an unreasonable number considering we can only take 1 adult a day...whereas nets take many adults at once.

dan, the coquihalla example is pretty bad...i doubt anyone is up there killing wild summer runs  right now

[lude98r]

I love to fish as im sure the bulk of everybody here does but fishing for salmon with the stocks declining the way they are makes to sense. My Mom always said two wrongs dont make a right. Try fishing for something else.

My 2cents

[Dennis.t]

Every year its the same old thing...the natives are taking too many fish and the sporties are not getting thier fair share. The natives have a constitutional right to fish and thats not going to change ever. I would have to agree with closing down the river for say 4 yrs, one full cycle to see if that would improve the stocks.Alot of fisherman have thousands of dollars tied up in big jet boats and fishing gear so therefore they have a god given right to fish the fraser.I dont revolve my whole life around whether or not i will get to kill springs on the river.Wake up... the sockeye have collasped and now we want to keep fishing the chinnooks into collaspe.Time to find other things to do with our hard earned dollars and pursue sustainable fisheries elsewhere like off the west coast of the island.I made a trip out there last July and it was awesome!

[lude98r]

I am one of those fisherman with thousands of dollars tied up in gear and a big jet boat but dont feel " a god given right" to fish for salmon. That is an ignorant opion in my books. Dont be jelous Hater

[bbronswyk2000]

Every year its the same old thing...the natives are taking too many fish and the sporties are not getting thier fair share. The natives have a constitutional right to fish and thats not going to change ever. I would have to agree with closing down the river for say 4 yrs, one full cycle to see if that would improve the stocks.Alot of fisherman have thousands of dollars tied up in big jet boats and fishing gear so therefore they have a god given right to fish the fraser.I dont revolve my whole life around whether or not i will get to kill springs on the river.Wake up... the sockeye have collasped and now we want to keep fishing the chinnooks into collaspe.Time to find other things to do with our hard earned dollars and pursue sustainable fisheries elsewhere like off the west coast of the island.I made a trip out there last July and it was awesome!

Thats because most of those fish off the West Coast are American fish. Americans are doing something right and its time for us to follow in their footsteps.

[ChromeBar]

Dennis T you are the one that needs to wake up.... closing the river for five or ten cycles would help if the nets were to be completely out of the river but even if the river was "closed" to everyone the natives will protest and still fish. Our government is scared to take the nesasary mesures to properly enforce it  . Every year there are more and more nets in the river as it seems like a free for all before the fish are gone. If you've  read the posts most sporties would be glad to see the fishery closed for as long as it took.. but it's pointless if the nets are still in the river. Sporties sitting at home just means less eyes on the river to see whats really going on! Its not about the meat my friends.

[Dennis.t]

Dennis T you are the one that needs to wake up.... closing the river for five or ten cycles would help if the nets were to be completely out of the river but even if the river was "closed" to everyone the natives will protest and still fish. Our government is scared to take the nesasary mesures to properly enforce it  . Every year there are more and more nets in the river as it seems like a free for all before the fish are gone. If you've  read the posts most sporties would be glad to see the fishery closed for as long as it took.. but it's pointless if the nets are still in the river. Sporties sitting at home just means less eyes on the river to see whats really going on! Its not about the meat my friends.

  I dont disagree the natives are doing what you suggest.My point is...they will always be allowed to put thier nets in the river and no amount of complaining will change that. I do disagree however when you suggest the fraser is not a meat fishery. The majority of people who fish the fraser are there to kill chinooks.I dont want to be fishing the chinnoks into collaspe and be part of the problem,two wrongs dont make it right.Thats why im choosing to look for other sustainable fisheries that have no conservation concerns such as the fabulous fishing that can be had on the west coast of the island.

[Kristopher]

Murder murder murder.  Kill kill kill.

[liketofish]

PETA might have just arrived. Since when we fishermen have become murderers? Shhhhhhhh.  

By the way, I just scan the 2007 return and for the same period it only had 39 fish. So this year is almost 5 times more fish and we are not allowed to fish until 1.5 months after the usual start. What science is this openning/closure thing based on? Are we saying DFO and its scientists had gone to sleep in those years that they could allow opening June 1st with those low numbers. I mean, if now they think near 200 fish in test fishery is indicative of a low return, what science did they use to justify those earlier June 1st openings then?  If the June 1st openings for the low number would kill lots of fish by the sporties, then explain why the offsprings of these reduced escapees are a lot more abundant than before.

I stick to the gun that this closure is not justified at all. It is just a scare-crow or knee-jerk reaction. If the test fishery is not something to use for deciding opening & closing the fishery, then why the heck let those test nets do their killings daily (ya, right, killings  ). Those fish die for nothing for sure. I don't care if I get to fish now or not, as July 15 is only days away. But just have to express my take on this unjustfied closure. If fishermen don't voice their displeasure with DFO when their actions are not justifed, they can surely get away with 'murder'. Doesn't Ironnoggin's thread on 'No Father's Day gift from DFO' convey the same message that we sporties's right are not respected?

[nosey]

Well maybe it was in 2007 they errored by opening it too early.

[nosey]

  And now that I'm here, when the DFO were doing creel surveys on the scales bar in Hope early in the years of the onset of bottom bouncing it was adding up to 1000 springs per week, so maybe one man with one rod doesn't make a difference but guaranteed 3000 men with 3000 rods on evdry hot bar in the river will deffinately make a difference. I'm just as avid a fisherman as anybody but there comes a time to take a step back for conservation purposes.
  If the natives are allowed to fish so be it, I cannot do anything about that but there is no denying that shutting down the commercial and sport fishery will allow a greater escapement of springs to the spawning beds and that has to happen before we kill every fish in the river.

[Dave]

Nearly all summer run Fraser chinook stocks are crashing, the exception being the SouthThompson which although way down from historic numbers seem to be doing better than others.  The major concern is for 4 and 5 year old fish, hence the size slots.  These fish would have spawned in 2005-6 so using catch rates from Albion (a test fishery that is intended to measure trends, not abundance) in 2007 is irrelevant.

[chris gadsden]

Been away fishing for 4 days, must get some comments in here too but after I write, The Journal later. I am sure Dave will like my comments.