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[liketofish]

Can we explain why DFO's closure of the Fraser to Chinook fishing untill July 15 this year?

If they operate on scientific facts and make decision based on test fishery, then how do we explain the number on the Albion test fishery on chinook return so far?  I run report for the same period (may 30 to June 29) for 2008, 2009 & 2010, and the numbers are:

2007  -  39
2008  -  90
2009  - 148
2010  - 197

So on what basis is the current closure depended on  
Are they operating on 'scare-crow' mentality now after the sockeye crash?
Once again, sporties are having reduced fishing opportunity, this time for no obvious reason.

[buck]

liketofish

Numbers of fish taken by the albion test fishery don't mean that a large number of fish are making it to the spawning grounds.
Catch numbers should be reduced by all user groups if you want to see fish in the future.

[Every Day]

Wow Buck haven't seen you in a long while. How ya been?

liketofish
This mentality is EXACTLY why the salmon runs are decreasing with every year.

We see a few more fish coming through then the historic average, etc and say "WOOT, must be more fish around, lets open it up and kill em' all." The truth is that no one knows what is going on in the ocean right now, or what is happening with the fishs' patterns with weather changes, etc. For example, the Stamp river last year. They had a good early return and opened it up to commercial and sporties and then figured out "S**T that was all the fish, they just came early this year, there goes the run."

Truthfully I would love to see the rivers closed for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE for 8 years minimum. I personally could give up fishing for that long in order to hopefully give some runs a chance, maybe even experience some good fishing in the years after the closure. At minimum make a catch and release fishery available. I'm personally glad that they are operating on scare crow mentality right now and not opening it, and I wish they would keep it closed for good in the Fraser. Most of the fishing that goes on there is a gong show anyways.

People need to stop complaining about their own reduced fishing opportunities and think about how screwed up the salmon stocks are. At least you still have an opening and fish around, maybe get into the mind thought that the fishing may be good when it does open in a few weeks 

[ChromeBar]

I am just disgusted at the way the fishery is being managed. It's obvious the salmon are in danger and the closure would be justified if our government would have the river shut down for all users.. but as we sit on the side lines we are watching the natives rape the river of everything that swims and our government is allowing them to do it. Why do any of us even buy licenses. Its a slap in the face for the tax paying anglers who spend millions of dollars on our fisheries every year. Then when we do get openings they give us slot limits !!! its a joke. Im sure the natives release all there bigger springs right?? Bigger nets grids?? give me a break. I't seems to me that the natives should be all for the future of our salmon and the future of their kids salmon but it is clear that they dont care any longer and just want the most they can get before there are none left. The sporties could be fishing the fraser all year for springs and it wouldn't be a spec of sand compared to the amount of fish the nets are taking. Once again the taxpaying citizens have less of a right then the non tax paying. What can we do??? block roads off have protest marches?? unless your a minority they will probably have little effect... its a very sad day in age... were let down again!!!! WE need to stand up for our rights!!!
My 2 cents

[CameronT120]

Sport fishing is a right?

[Every Day]

The natives have number limits. They are only aloud certain amounts of fish just like every one else.
They have certain openings, saying that what sporties would catch is just a grain of sand is a very unbiased and uneducated opinion.
Now I know you may not agree with that, but it is the truth, not all of them are fishing illegally and taking more than they are aloud.

I don't agree with the nets, like I said, it should be closed for everyone for a minimum of 8 years.
But singling out on group of users is just plain stupid, everyone is at fault and it isn't just the natives.

If you really want to get down to it (and get to science behind it), it is everyone (even people that don't fish) who is the problem.
Warmer temps due to greenhouse gases cause algae and plakton blooms (salmon food) to occur earlier and in shorter, larger events. The reason pinks are becoming so abundant is because of how fast they migrate to the ocean, they are the first ones out to sea hitting all of these earlier and larger blooms. Later fish like sockeye aren't hitting the blooms anymore as they are occurring earlier, therefore there is a lack of food. Lack of food + commercial fishing in Alaska + Predation + nets in rivers + any openings means fewer fish coming back.

And complaining about a slot limit is just plain stupid as well...  don't want to protect the larger females that carry more eggs so we get fewer and smaller fish back every year   Licences, whether you like it or not do provide hatcheries with money such as the Vedder so you can get some fish for the freezer for food. Stop complaining, or stop fishing, one more person off the river isn't a problem. AND we need to stop blaming and pointing fingers at every other sector of fishing, we can't bring back the stocks if every one is fighting over the few remaining fish rather than trying to keep them alive.

[ChromeBar]

I was just ranting and i know i was abit over the top.. i totally agree with most of what you said i would love nothing more then for the river to be closed for as long as it takes to see a positive impact. as far as numbers and openings for the natives there's no way they can even begin to speculate how many fish are being taken the bottom line is the nets should be out.
I feel they probably know their doing serious damage to the salmon runs but are not doing enough to save em.. As far a picking on a single user group they are the only ones netting the fraser thus me pointing them out. I agree there are tons of reasons the stocks are dwindling but fish that do make it thru the other obstacles are being met with certain doom in there most vunerable and critical part of their journey. The goverment has acknowledged that the stocks are in trouble but give them openings anyways... i feel the natives should know better and choose to not push their right to harvest in the matter they are doing it. This day in age theres no reason to have to live on fish!! theres plenty of other food opportunities out there....

[alwaysfishn]

The natives have number limits. They are only aloud certain amounts of fish just like every one else.

Do they stick to those number limits? How could you tell, they self-monitor.

They have certain openings, 

They have certain opening but they often fish around the clock. During non-openings they string out hidden set nets. They often use drift nets during non-openings.

Now I know you may not agree with that, but it is the truth, not all of them are fishing illegally and taking more than they are aloud.

Your statement may be the truth. What percentage do you believe are fishing illegally? The catch numbers they report are self monitored numbers do you believe they are accurate? If they are allocated certain numbers for food and ceremony purposes why are there so many cheap fish available for sale?

[ynot]

I quess we should ask the americans how they have just had one of the largest chinook runs in the columbia river since the 1930s. must be doing something right even with warming waters etc.

[kingpin]

there is absolutely no way to determine how many fish the natives take...but you can be sure its much much higher than they like to admit...commercial guys are not much better...i really dont see how we can continue to support a commercial fishery on the fraser...though i am obviously biased...sporties take so few fish in comparison to the nets...time to decrease the amount of fish they are allocated to take...

I do believe all species of salmon should have a catch card....not just chinook and steelhead. 10 coho is a reasonable number...some guys cant even kill that many adults(chris  ) but the slab and tamahi regulars are taking a lot more than that. I knew a guy who bragged about killing 60 coho a few years ago...He didn't have much of an answer when I asked him why.

we could go a step further and say 10 adult salmon a season....the problem there though is with online licensing it makes it so easy to cheat.

either way cooperation with every interest group would be ideal...but there is so much animosity between commercials guys and natives over netting and selling of fish....and sporties vs both of them...its unlikely the summer run of salmon will get any better....the fall run could be next...especially with the roe fishery that takes place on pinks and chum....

[FISHIN MAGICIAN]

Well..from the bellyaching going on..I have no sympathies for anyone, including myself. 

The natives haven't taken a whole lot of fish so far this year, just 641 pieces. When I look at the bar fishing pressure going on during an average day when it is open, and it likely will be open on July 15 for 4 springs.... 1 over and 3 under the 67 cm limit or whatever it will be this year--it is obvious that the First Nations Groups will probably take as many as the River Anglers. However, on an average day when the bars are accessible, when the fishing is good and the various anglers are on the river, there are probably a few hundred taken some days.

I'm a Saltwater dude 99.99% of the time and I can tell you that what I spend to target the Springs off the Fraser Mouth makes what a river angler spends look like pocket change. My daily limit will probably be 2 springs after July 15...both of which must be over 65 cm. I'll go out there and troll miles and miles of water in a days fishing and be lucky if I see 2 fish to the boat---feeding the seals and sea lions as the day goes by. Then I'll be waiting until the next time the weather is nice enough to get out again in the productive areas in the ocean.  The entire fleet of boats (charters and private recreational anglers) out on a given weekend may boat a couple of dozen fish if the schools happen to wander around off the Fraser in the areas conducive to effective trolling...however..there are only a few dozen crab trap floats to dodge while trolling.

Yet, here I am, reading a forum where everyone complains about their opportunities pointing fingers and bellyaching about this that and the other thing and no one offers any solutions or acts upon them. The WCVI guys in Areas 19 and 20 and other areas sit quietly by releasing all these fish which those who fish in the rivers are going to get a crack at.

There's nothing to complain about....and don't get me wrong..I'm not complaining. DFO is trying to get it right...actually conserving the stocks and seeking to protect it and the rogue groups are as well (at least no one has any pictures of illegal fishing on the Rivers in recent days)...yet people are STILL complaining about this that and the other thing!!!!.

I say, if the sport fishers are going to be open in the river, then us saltchuck guys should be open as well.

Anyways, I know I'll get a crack at these springs, and you river folks will as well, so quietyerbichin and tie up your BEST spin'nglows, use your bouncin' betties for paperweights instead of fishing gear when it's open and open a pop and chill out.

.02!!!!

[liketofish]

I quess we should ask the americans how they have just had one of the largest chinook runs in the columbia river since the 1930s. must be doing something right even with warming waters etc.

This is what we are talking about. There is ample evidence that chinook run is healthy. It is better than prior years, and the Coumbia has a very strong run. So what is the scientific or statistical justification for the delayed opening?

Everyday, there is no need to blame any sport fisherman wishing to have more fishing opportunities for the decline in stock. What facts are you based on? You must be kidding. We sporties take 2% of fish and are responsible for fish decline? If it is that bad, then perhaps we should all hang up the rods for good and be a buddist or a PETA member. 

This thread is not about debates on personal ethics of fishing. No good fishermen will fish when the fish stock is endangered. Saying that, I don't agree with the PETA-like mentality about fishing either. Sporties are not taking big enough number to hurt fish stock, so there is no point to call others stupid if they want to fish more often. 8 years not fishing? Perhaps some of you can do it, but for most of us normal fishing souls, our fishing gears would have been sold long before the 8 years closure is finished and DFO will see very few people interested to buy their licenses.  

The chinook run has been healthy based on figures and other runs. Why the closure or delayed opening? Ya, I don't mind if all user groups are off the river if the runs are low, but when some groups are still allowed to slaughtering the fish with potent gill nets.....  Perhaps Einstein can solve the puzzling equation.  

[alwaysfishn]

I believe it's something to do with priority as per some treaty agreements with the natives. DFO first determines whether there is enough escapement for reproduction, then the native are given an opportunity for ceremonial and food purposes. Then the sporties get an opportunity.

Because the natives have had minimal opportunity to fish for chinook, DFO cannot allow the sporties an opportunity.

[FISHIN MAGICIAN]

I believe it's something to do with priority as per some treaty agreements with the natives. DFO first determines whether there is enough escapement for reproduction, then the native are given an opportunity for ceremonial and food purposes. Then the sporties get an opportunity.

Because the natives have had minimal opportunity to fish for chinook, DFO cannot allow the sporties an opportunity.

100% Correct!

[FISHIN MAGICIAN]

This is what we are talking about. There is ample evidence that chinook run is healthy. It is better than prior years, and the Coumbia has a very strong run. So what is the scientific or statistical justification for the delayed opening?

Everyday, there is no need to blame any sport fisherman wishing to have more fishing opportunities for the decline in stock. What facts are you based on? You must be kidding. We sporties take 2% of fish and are responsible for fish decline? If it is that bad, then perhaps we should all hang up the rods for good and be a buddist or a PETA member. 

This thread is not about debates on personal ethics of fishing. No good fishermen will fish when the fish stock is endangered. Saying that, I don't agree with the PETA-like mentality about fishing either. Sporties are not taking big enough number to hurt fish stock, so there is no point to call others stupid if they want to fish more often. 8 years not fishing? Perhaps some of you can do it, but for most of us normal fishing souls, our fishing gears would have been sold long before the 8 years closure is finished and DFO will see very few people interested to buy their licenses.  

The chinook run has been healthy based on figures and other runs. Why the closure or delayed opening? Ya, I don't mind if all user groups are off the river if the runs are low, but when some groups are still allowed to slaughtering the fish with potent gill nets.....  Perhaps Einstein can solve the puzzling equation.  

What exactly is your definition of "healthy"? There are several stocks of concern which are entering the river at the same time as many  non endangered runs and those endangered stocks are not doing well..if anything, they're nearing extinction numbers with just a few handfuls of returning fish in some cases.

I love it when I hear people talk about "healthy" runs when in fact those runs have never been more vulnerable.

If people want to know what a "healthy" run is they need to go back in time 40 years, then you'll understand what "healthy" is...it's a relative term.

50% of the Canneries on the BC Coast shut down by the 40's. Now that's relative to today.....never mind 40 years ago.

The salmon runs aren't "healthy", we've just come to accept the mediocre runs of today as norms.