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Floss anything that swims, as long as its hooked in the mouth its all good.

7 (7.6%)

I like flossing, I even head out and target fraser springs when sockeye are closed.

18 (19.6%)

Sockeye don't bite, so I don't mind flossing some for the BBQ each summer.

38 (41.3%)

Flossing isnt for me but the resource can handle it so have fun boys and girls

6 (6.5%)

Flossing is snagging and should be banned on every river.

23 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 86

[darmin]

Where are the ethics in this fishery just step back on the bar and watch 

[DragonSpeed]

I want to focus on one thing you said: "Sockeye fishermen aim (for) the mouth, and try to catch the fish at the mouth".  This is snagging by definition.  If you read the regs as posted below they state:  to avoid foul hooking, the angler should induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.  Reverse that:  if a fish wasn't induced to take a hook in its mouth then it is foul hooked, its really that simple!!!! 

Flossers don't induce a bite so their fish are snagged ( except for a very small portion that hit at the end of the drift).

This is false logic, but I was never good enough at logic courses. 

Basically "IF A then B" does not imply if "NOT A then NOT B"

From page 8 of the regs... Provincial definition of Foul Hook(snag): 

snagging (foul hooking)… hooking a fish in any other part of its body than the mouth. Attempting to snag fish of any species is prohibited. Any fish willfully or accidently snagged must be released immediately.

From page 9:

It is unlawful to...  Snag (foul hook) fish (see definition,page . Any fish willfully or accidently snagged must be released immediately.

From your quote:

"the angler should induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth."

Interestingly - not in the provincial regs...

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/documents/Fish%20Syn%20Front%20End.pdf

Federal regs.... http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/recfish/Law/restrictions_e.htm

"wilfully foul hook or attempt to foul hook any fish other than herring, northern anchovy, Pacific sand lance and squid. To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth. "

"Should aim", not MUST aim.  Should is a suggestive verb.  MUST would be the requiring verb.    You don't see laws written that say you "should" wear seatbelts.  They use words like MUST, mandatory, etc.  not should.

If your boss says "we should have this project wrapped up tomorrow" do you feel that it MUST be? No, it is an expectation, not a requirement.

Until the law is clarified or challenged, this will continue to be a divisive issue among the recreational fishing community.  Some clearer grammar on the part of the law writers would go a long way. 

If anyone has the FULL legal freshwater salmon regulations and can find these parts of the document. I'd be interested reading the words from there, rather than the "supplememnt" to which we have easy access.

[firstlight]

Its really not that difficult people.
Flossing Sockeye is snagging Sockeye.
Sure there may be millions of Sockeye but it wasnt many years ago that the Chinook were in trouble and how many Thousands of them are snagged on the river every year?
This fishery is a joke and just because fisheries lets it happen it doesnt mean its right.

[Steelhawk]

I have no interest to debate flossing ethics. DFO allows the fishery. They also put the rules in the book about illegal fishing techniques. I appeal to those who are not die-hard anti flossing fishermen to read the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law. DFO's allowing the fishery while they also prohibit snagging must point only to one thing, that they think the spirit of the law is justifiable for flossing (for whatever reason). There is also the danger when we take any text of book (including the holy scritpures of the world religions), and interpret it to the extreme. Wars & killings of even the innocents have been waged based on just the letter of the law. If you don't like the flossing in Fraser, then so be it. No words are sufficient to pursuade you. Even if Fraser sockeyes do bite in clearer water, you will still oppose to it because of the chaotic scenes out there and the possible consequence to spread to the smaller system.

By the way, Gooey, thanks for the observation. I also notice that in places where sockeyes are in the travel mode, they don't bite, much like coho & spring. If you find them in a staging area of rest, the incidence of hooking in the mouth increases. Lower Pegleg has that huge diagonal shallow ledge at the top as a barrier to migration, so I think a lot of fish pause below it, making it easier for them to bite. I also fish another exclusive spot above Rosedale with a formation which cause them to rest in front of the formation, and that is another spot there is a higher incidence of mouth-hooked sockeye lately. But that spot is quite snaggy inside, so we cast further out, then at about 60 degree, I start releasing the line and about 30-40 degree is where the fish gets hooked. Just an interesting observation of late.

I don't intend to challenge some notable members' idealogy, but this is factual observation by being on the river.

Tight line.

[liketofish]

I feel it is a waste of time to debate the legality of flossing. DFO fines people for snagging fish all the time. They allow flossing. That should be enough say about its legality. End of debate on that. But if the debate is ethics, then who is to say that your ethics on fishing is more superior than others. Your teachers of fishing in the past do not hold the crown on fishing ethics. Other fishers' teachers in the past may say use the most effective method allowed by law to catch your fish, but do use the most effective method. Try not come home empty-handed to disappoint the family, stupid. 

If sporting means making fishing more difficult to be more challenging or entertaining, or C&R only, then it is a view not shared by many fishermen. Why bend others' views as if yours are the only valid ones. 

I agree with BS, not every one carries the flossing gear to the Vedder. I didn't. Even if some one does, they will lose tons of gear and betties are not cheap. If they see short floaters catching fish often, they will switch their gear. None of my sockeye friends bb the Vedder.

I am ok with flossing because it is productive. It brings out the family. I love to see the whole family united in catching their dinner fare. It provides opportunities for fathers to spend time with their kids, even teenagers.  If you ignore the high-sounding ethics issue, there are the pros for sockeye fishery. Would you rather see the fathers alone in the pubs instead, trying to hook into .....    I rest my case.

[Old Black Dog]

I am ok with flossing because it is productive. It brings out the family. I love to see the whole family united in catching their dinner fare. It provides opportunities for fathers to spend time with their kids, even teenagers.  If you ignore the high-sounding ethics issue, there are the pros for sockeye fishery. Would you rather see the fathers alone in the pubs instead.

Well said.

[TrophyHunter]

I love sitting back and reading all these posts.. don't you realize that you can't change anyones mind!!  the people who floss will defend it till their blue in the face , those who call it snagging will bash you till they are blue in the face.. nothing comes from these disussions ... they just escalate until someone gets pissed and the thread gets closed.. same thing over and over.. all the same points being made over and over... funny stuff me thinks !!!

Rick just stating the facts as he sees em

[Fish Assassin]

I love sitting back and reading all these posts.. don't you realize that you can't change anyones mind!!  the people who floss will defend it till their blue in the face , those who call it snagging will bash you till they are blue in the face.. nothing comes from these disussions ... they just escalate until someone gets pissed and the thread gets closed.. same thing over and over.. all the same points being made over and over... funny stuff me thinks !!!

Rick just stating the facts as he sees em

You're absolutely right on Rick.

[Gooey]

I'm  going to go and stick my head in the sand now (next to ricks) 

[TrophyHunter]

Yeah yeah yeah tell you what though you can join me saturday morning for a lil fishing ... maybe carpool our way to the river

[liketofish]

Thickrick is quite right. No die-hards can convince other die-hards on the opposite side. It is the middle-ground people who are digesting and will make their choices. Otherwise, it is a waste of time, unless you have lots of time to waste. 

Come to think more about it, why are we trying to convince others to join our rank?

If the bar fishermen succeed to convince every one else to join their rank, then they will have to face lots of people fishing along side them without a room even to stick up your rod. Same goes with the flossing proponents. Who needs more lines crossing each other at the sockeye bars.   Folks, this is not just a waste of time, it can also lead to risking the loss of our favourite spot on the river. 

[Ho whacker]

The same types of debates where on my hunting forum with people saying that crossbows in bow season is unethical and all that jumbuliha. But the point there is in the end the general consensus ended up being hunting is hunting and lets stick together as a group instead of bickering amoungst ourselves.The same can be applied here , the method you use to catch fish is up to you and the regulations and limits for fish are there for a reason.you are only aloud your 2 socks or 2 cohos or whatever plain and simple and as long as the dfo does there research recreational fishing of any kind should not damage any run of fish. Now if the effects of flossing on the population of fish is not what troubles you then what is it?people aren't fishing the way you prefer so they must be forced to? a ludicrous ideal . lets say (purely and example) me and my buddies from work don't think that women are rational enough to vote, so in turn they are not and the government should recall that right from women .......come on fishermen are fishermen and as long as we are not endangering the runs of fish cant we all just accept eachothers methods of FISHING

[searun17]

Sorry ho whacker but no i cannot accept it when more and more people are taking the long  leader and bottom bouncing that is the norm on the Fraser onto smaller systems such as the vedder , chehalis etc,i personally  feel this type of fishing  has negative impact on these systems and there is no place for it here,i am not trying to criticize you or anyone else for fishing the Fraser socks as long as it is a legal method as defined in the regs ,if people choose to fish them or not right now, that is a persons choice and thats fine,you can rationalize this type of fishing any way you choose but the bottom line is the overflow of the sockey mentality onto the smaller streams is not a positive in any way shape or form.

[Steelhawk]

Most of us who are flossing the Fraser do not want the betties & the long leaders used in the Vedder too. It comes with education and with helping our newbie friends to fish properly in the smaller system. BS is so right about the correct attitude. Instead of getting so pizzed by others' lack of skill, why not just take some newbies fishing & show them the trick. It does much more for fishing than yelling and belittling each other. I motion our great CG do a FREE short floating demonstration seminar at the Vedder during the coho season to set things right.    Post this across various forums, or even set up some posters in the pouplar sockeye bars. How does that sound, Chris? 

[Stratocaster]

funfish I think that is a great idea!  Not just Chris but alot of the members of this forum could help out as well.  We could have it just downstream of KWB.  We could see if any tackle shops can help with supplying some gear.  It would also be a chance for the CR cleanup coalition to spread the word so to speak.