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Floss anything that swims, as long as its hooked in the mouth its all good.

7 (7.6%)

I like flossing, I even head out and target fraser springs when sockeye are closed.

18 (19.6%)

Sockeye don't bite, so I don't mind flossing some for the BBQ each summer.

38 (41.3%)

Flossing isnt for me but the resource can handle it so have fun boys and girls

6 (6.5%)

Flossing is snagging and should be banned on every river.

23 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 86

[marmot]

I'll probably floss a few this year for the BBQ and smoke a few, but I had a disturbing first time out this year so Im a little turned off it....and no, for me its not "really" fishing, just harvesting.  That said, everybody on their moral highhorse should really check themselves...because almost everything we do as anglers will eventually come into question as being ethical or not.  Use of live bait or bait at all, composite rods, fishfinders, treble hooks, lead weights, even the monofilament we all use...all that crap at one time has come under fire.  Lets face it, we harrass and sometimes kill fish for our own pleasure, and even the most environmentally conscious of us have lost gear (floats, mono, pencil lead and Drennans, too!!) in the chuck or rivers...sometimes we even *gasp* fish when stocks are low (2005 coho anyone?)...So please guys, remember what we ALL have in common.  Its a loophole in the regs right now that people are exploiting to catch fish that won't bite anyways...no use "losing friends" over it....we're all fishermen at one point or another.

[chris gadsden]

 Take some time to educate the people, show them a different technique whether it is bar fishing, float fishing, casting spoons etc. invite them fishing.
[/quote]I have invited you many times to ride out in the Leaf Craft and bar fish  but you have declined.

Is it the rolling, rolling rolling right along  that bothers you. It is almost time for that to start happening.

[Fish Assassin]

 Take some time to educate the people, show them a different technique whether it is bar fishing, float fishing, casting spoons etc. invite them fishing.

I have invited you many times to ride out in the Leaf Craft and bar fish  but you have declined.

Is it the rolling, rolling rolling right along  that bothers you. It is almost time for that to start happening.
[/quote]

I've heard through the grapevine that people that have ridden the Maple Leaf craft hasn't been the same since.

[Bonanza]

I think there are a few ways to ease the tension on the fraser. #1 Make it illegal to floss Springs. #2 When Sockeye are open, close spring retention. #3 Make it a requirement to tag sockeye on your licence. when you get your two you are done ! Go home! No more "I got my two now Im fishing for you"

[MERC]

Just my opinion on this.
The whole flossery issue always bring up two old adages for me.  My limited understanding of the history of the recreational sockeye fishery goes like this:  Once upon a time, sockeye was not open to recreational anglers but a small group of dedicated fisherfolks put in the time and effort to allow it to open.  Not sure if flossing came before or after this.  So, the first adage that comes to mind is that be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it.  The group of dedicated fisherfolks got what they wished for that allows a recreational sockeye opening but it has morphed into this flossery.  The second adage is that once you open Pandora's box, you can't close it. Interestingly enough, if you remember the actual myth, all the evils were let into the world with the opening of the box.  But, what most people usually forget is that remaining at the bottom of the box, was one small little creature called Hope.

First things first.  Flossing, by the current regulations is legal.  Period. It's the way the law is written. I've read it, I've interpreted it.  For those who wish to floss, this is a good thing.   For those who don't, obviously it's not.  But, the same law that allows flossing does not restrict which river system it's allowed in.  So, it's legal in the Vedder, Thompson, Chehalis, Brunette, Serpentine and any other little creek, stream or river you can think of.  For those who wish to floss, this is still a good thing, for those who don't, obviously still bad.  But, there is the third group of people for which this is bad: the group who doesn't mind flossing in the Fraser but not any other river system.  It's kind of the "Not in my backyard" kind of mentality.  But law is still law and flossing is allowed in any river system.  For those who are against flossing, I think their perspective (and I don't want to put words in the mouths of others here, so please correct me if I'm wrong) is global in nature.  By that I mean they're looking at the big picture and seeing how flossing will affect the sport fishing industry as a whole.  How the technique will pervade other river systems beyond the Fraser; ethical questions about legalized forms of snagging; where this kind of fishery will ultimately lead to.  Those in favor of flossing are seeing the benefits:  it's extremely effective in catching a species of salmon that doesn't bite; that the impact recreational fishers have on the sockeye stocks is fairly negligible; it's legal. Both viewpoints are valid and ironically not mutually exclusive as people would lead one to believe.  I would venture a small guess that most people who floss would prefer it to stay on the Fraser because they understand the negative impact it would have on other systems whereas the Fraser is better able to absorb it.   Flosser or not, for many people putting a fresh fish on the table is a wonderful thing that we are fortunate to have easy access to.  There aren't really any bad guys in any of this, only people who have differences of perspectives of the fishery. 

For those who have suggestions or would like the law to reflect changes so that it fits better into their personal beliefs, philosophy, or ethics, I'm sad to say, it isn't likely to happen at least not in the foreseeable future.  The amount of political will required to change a law in the House of Commons is staggering; the amount of political will to change the regulations (I'm assuming by the Governor in Council, but I will have to check) is merely confounding.  If it isn't a really hot politiical issue, change is unlikely.  So, you can't have your cake and eat it too unfortunately.  Ultimately I believe that choosing to floss is legal and a personal choice you make.  You have your reasons to do it and you can justify it any number of ways that can be substantiated in law and by your own values.  For those who don't floss, I don't believe that they sit on their morally superior chairs looking down their noses at those who do floss.  I believe that non flossers they truly care about the resource and the impact this technique will have on the entire fishery, not just the sockeye. 

So here's the little bit of Hope that is lying at the bottom of Pandora's box:

Once upon a time before there was flossing no one caught sockeye.  Fisherfolks put time and effort into coming up with ways to catch them.  Hence, flossing was born.  Now, there are some fisherfolk who are actively seeking a new way of catching them; one that doesn't involve a 9+ foot leader.  And if enough people work at this and share information about their findings I believe a new technique for enticing sockeye to bite will be born.  And therein lies some hope for mankind after all...

[Gooey]

#1 - I waould like to thank everyone for their votes and comments...one thing that shines thru is that most fishers here think that flossing should remain a tool to extract sockeye from the fraser...thankfully, there was only 2 votes for the floss anything that moves catagory...for all the debate and squabling back and forth, we all really aren't of that different a mind set!

I liked your post merc...I stated something similiar on another thread, indeed sockeye fishing is in its infancy and there is definitely room for it to evolve!

One thin I disagree with though - flossing is not legal, lets review the regs:

It is illegal too (bullet point from list):  -wilfully foul hook or attempt to foul hook any fish other than herring, northern anchovy, Pacific sand lance and squid. To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth .

(Taken from: http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/recfish/Law/restrictions_e.htm)

Someone who is flossing actively tries ("willfully") to run their line through the fish's mouth until the hook is pulled into the side of the face...thats why leaders are now 15 feet long (to increase the flossing action!!!).  DFO continues to say that to avoid foul hooking, the angler should "induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth"...I think anyone who is resonable would interpret "in its mouth" to be anything but INSIDE, not in-the-side of the mouth, under the chin, on the nose, and all the other places a hook point meets a fish's face.

As well, we don't" induce" the fish into a bite so our action fails this test as well. 

I know a person who set sockeye quotas for 6+ years.  The fraser panels position is that sports impact is so light that they are a non factor on the sockeye runs (when strong or weak).  For this reason, I believe they provide us this grace and allow us to snag sockeye.  People need to realizze we have been granted a concession and we shouldn't abuse it by flossing other stocks, runs, or rivers.

[Gooey]

to address Fishfreak, I am the middle catagory, I really don't think flossing should be done outside of springs season.  I would give up sockeye flossing to have bottom bouncers cleared off of rivers like the vedder, chehalis, stamp, seymour, and cap.

[Gooey]

Lets face it gang, ANYTIME a fish is hooked and it didnt STRIKE the presentation, it is SNAGGED.  Flossing is snagging period.  Regardless of where the hook lands, because the fish had no intention of hitting that hook and yarn it must have been snagged.

If your refer back to what dfo says, it confirms my statement:  To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth. 

We all agree that 95% of the sockeye don't bite...if they dont bite then we snagged em, plain and simple. 

A flossed fish wasnt induced into doing anything...it was in the wrong place when the hook flew by!  let me ask you this fish freak, you see a coho sitting in a pool, you lower your hook below the fish's mouth and then snap your rod up.  lets say the hook caught the fish under the chin...is its sangged?  Of coarse it is.  only difference between that example and the sockeye fishery it that the fraser river is what is powering your hook instead of you ripping the rod up but its still snagging all the same. 

[Gooey]

I think maybe DFO needs to further define and separate snagging (th eact of hooking a fish that didn't bite) and foul hooked (hooking a fish anywhere beside the mouth)...it think they are 2 separate and distinct things that DFO needs to define much better.

BTW FF, I ahve told you guys a ton of times about my buddy who got a ticket for a flossed coho at the tamahi, he said it was hooked right through the max out side in (like many sockeye) and an undercover CO gave him a ticket for bonking it.  Doesnt help that when you fish the tamahi, you are fishing seams more often than not and its easy to hold that line a little tighter than you should and sweep the drift a little.

Its all a matter of selective enforcement, why do you think enforcemenet isn't up on the cap where I coninutally find beaks with triple hooks, barbs, the whole works...CO's would rather have the beaks on the cap pounding a man made run opposed to having them on the squam, seymour, or some other "wilder" river.

[dennisK]

Lets face it gang, ANYTIME a fish is hooked and it didnt STRIKE the presentation, it is SNAGGED.  Flossing is snagging period.  Regardless of where the hook lands, because the fish had no intention of hitting that hook and yarn it must have been snagged.

If your refer back to what dfo says, it confirms my statement:  To avoid foul hooking (snagging) fish, anglers should aim to induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth. 

We all agree that 95% of the sockeye don't bite...if they dont bite then we snagged em, plain and simple. 

A flossed fish wasnt induced into doing anything...it was in the wrong place when the hook flew by!  let me ask you this fish freak, you see a coho sitting in a pool, you lower your hook below the fish's mouth and then snap your rod up.  lets say the hook caught the fish under the chin...is its sangged?  Of coarse it is.  only difference between that example and the sockeye fishery it that the fraser river is what is powering your hook instead of you ripping the rod up but its still snagging all the same. 

True - but revealing poll results - the way I see it almost 80% of the folks here don't mind flossing for fish in this manner.

[Gooey]

Don't get me wrong, I do think flossing is snagging but if the sock run can take the pressure (and it can) then I don't mind it in this scenario.  seems like most ( 27/52 votes) say floss the sockeye but nothing else...I think that is a workable position to work toward in BC!

I just want people to realize what exactly they are doing (snagging)...if they do, then I would hope they would minimise these activities on other rivers and at other times of the year. 

I like my logging anology, clear cutting a forest is unacceptable practice in todays world, but clear cutting a forest infested with pine beetles is another story.  Same sorta thing comparing a fishery like the vedder steelies (never should be flossed) VS the fraser sockeye (ok to floss a few).

[Gooey]

FF, the reason I want fishers to realize flossing is snaggin is so that they feel less inclined to go floss another river like the vedder.  And as I pointed out with my logging anology, there is a time and a place for everything, you agree with me that flossing should stick to the fraser sock run.

I do think that the guys here on FWR represent a far superior fisher VS the average guy you see sockeye fishing...we understand the regs relatively well and yet some of us (you for example) think flossing is close enough to the mouth not to be considered foul hooked.  all these other guys that don't know the regs and may actually think sockeye bite...they are truly the ones that need to be educated...they're the guys forming the meat lines at KWB and Lickman Rd etc...their the guys sweeping the drift, BBing, and running 5 and 10 foot leaders for steelhead!!!

To a degree you are right, a lot of the people here don't need to be educated on this issue, some do though.  According to the web site, there are 1600 memebers here, if all the members here go out with the same message in their heads and share it with just a handful of other fisher on the bar that aren't so knowledgable then we will actually help to educate the masses and we may even help reduce flossing on other systems. 

Maybe thats the difference between you and me, I do think we all can chip in a tiny bit but by the end of it all those tiny bits add up to a significant impact in the fishery.  It needs to start with a consistant message and goal though...and thats were I come in 

[Gooey]

PS FF - I would have classified you as a hard core flosser last year, I don't know if my impressions were wrong but you don't seem quite that way this year...has your perspective changed since last season?!?  Could that be attributed to what you read here and the knowledge shared between memebers you have been fishing with?!?!  Just some food for thought 

[Steelhawk]

To me flossing is not snagging according to DFO. If it is, DFO would have ticketed every one left & right. If you want to see snagging, look at the natives at the Cap mouth with their treble hooks and the way the yank the rod repeatedly to try to hook the body of the fish. Sockeye fishermen aim the mouth, and try to catch the fish at the mouth.

I for one has caught many sockeyes (especially lately when Fraser is clearing) inside the mouth by bouncing with a slow, controlled release of the line at Pegleg (where it is relatively snag-free). The fish usually gets hooked towards the end of the drift when my line has the least swing action. At that point the betty is not bouncing and I keep on releasing line slowly to make an almost straight-line backward bounce slowly (at about 20-40 degree angle from shore). A little piece of red wool seems to get them interested instead of a big glob. When I did not release line, a high incidence of sockeyes are flossed with the hook outside in.

I am beginning to doubt the statement that some notable members are saying that the Fraser sockeyes don't bite categorically. How can they be so sure? Have they seen what happen down there at river bottom to make such emphatic statement? I have fished sockeyes since the fishery began, so I think I know what I am talking about. If sockeyes bite in other systems, why is it that the Fraser fish (of multiple stocks) don't bite your same presentation (a small wool) slowed down to the pace that they can see it at this level of water clarity lately?

Yes, I can shorten the leader to justify this claim, but firstly, I don't mind a flossed sockeye personally, and secondly, given the highly erratic bounces of the bettie, a longer leader should moderate the erratic movement of the wool, perhaps giving a slowly dancing form at the end of the long line, so that sockeye can be enticed to mouth it when it is close by where they can see it.

I am giving my observation of my recent catches not to justify anything, because I am at peace with flossing. It is just a curious observation of my own catch recently, using a slow down bouncing approach during this late period of clearing water. Are there similar observations out there? Even if you do not use my technique, has any one noticed that there are more sockeyes caught inside the mouth as the water is clearing up? If there is a general consensus that this is the case, perhaps it proves that Fraser socs do bite when they can see it with a slower presentation.

By the way, I don't encourage every one to try this approach as you can lose tons of betties & hooks by releasing line during bouncing. Many snaggy bars are not forgiving to this technique. Lower Pegleg seems to be the only safe spot to do this.

[Gooey]

Yes the sockeye do bite ocasionally, I have caught a spring on the retrieve this year and I have also caught maybe one sock in the mouth this season.  You are right fun fish, a take like that comes at the end of the drift when there is little sweeping motion and the fish can actually see the yarn or corky infront of them...it dosnt happen often though and it never happens in the first 1/2 to 3/4 of your drift..

I want to focus on one thing you said: "Sockeye fishermen aim (for) the mouth, and try to catch the fish at the mouth".  This is snagging by definition.  If you read the regs as posted below they state:  to avoid foul hooking, the angler should induce the fish to take the hook in its mouth.  Reverse that:  if a fish wasn't induced to take a hook in its mouth then it is foul hooked, its really that simple!!!! 

Flossers don't induce a bite so their fish are snagged ( except for a very small portion that hit at the end of the drift).