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[liketofish]

I must have just read the most ridiculous post on the forum since it was established. Unbelievable that this level of stupidity still exists.

If you intend to get personal, fine. If we disagree on where we stand, and then resort to personal attack, then what is the point of having a public forum to debate things. You may as well close these forums.  I say what I feel is behind the shark-fin soup phenomenon, like it or not. At least I am not a 'traitor' of my own culture. So after shark fin, what next? Ban all live seafood tanks in the Chinese super markets because it doesn't measure up to some westerners' idea of animal treatment? How about banning the eating of guts because it doesn't fit food safety standards?

[Schenley]

That is all I can say and no more comments forthcoming from me on this issue.

Too bad you didnt heed what you wrote before.


Calling Rodney a traitor to his culture just re-enforces your stupidity...

[liketofish]

Too bad you didnt heed what you wrote before.


Calling Rodney a traitor to his culture just re-enforces your stupidity...

I was calling a stop to posting on the soup because we are repeating the same points. But Rodney came back with a personal insult of the utmost kind without any attempt to debate point by point. Why? Just because he is the mod here so he can make such insulting post? If he were a poster like you and me, such tone or language may not be tolerated. I believe he owes an apology. I am coming back to post because of the insulting attack on my attempt to protect our cultural heritage (at least in large part of China) to have the soup for important ceremonies, much like you folks in the West eating turkey for festivities.

We have to be civil in our debate forum. If the mod set such example, how can we blame anyone from jumping on posters' mistakes or different points of view with name calling or insulting terms. Sorry I didn't say he is a traitor. You said it. I don't consider him a traitor, because he happens to be educated and lived most of his life outside of China/Taiwan. Particularly with his field of study, I can understand he will identify more with the scientists out there. Who is he anyway outside of this forum? Whatever he believes is his own personal belief, and this forum is too small an influence outside of the fishing readership. Actually, the person a lot of us cultural Chinese in HK consider a 'traitor' of sort is a famous NBA athlete, who was considered a national hero of sort, and probably still is. But his image is greatly tarnished in the mind of cultural Chinese at large due to his joining with the extremist movement against the soup. He is not from southern China, so not sure if he eats the soup or not. But while he profits handsomely from his Chinese root (in huge Chinese endorsement), he joined the extremist movement & became a spokesman of sort, without truly understanding the kind of folks behind the movement. I remembered in the several banquets I attended in HK, everyone was blaming this guy and the gwai lo trying to force their view on us.

Sorry to say, some of these animal rights folks have terrorist inclination. You think I invent the story that the anti-soup groups consider the tragedy of the Japanese tsunami a karma for their killing the shark, and implying that they deserve their fate? Try google it and see how many you can find, or read this author who tries to counter the view:
 http://www.alexhofford.com/node/2378

These fanatics, having done the damage to the Inuit's seal hunt, and spraying paint on people's fur coat, are now focussing their hate on China town and any one daring to oppose their anti-shark-fin stance. This is just one of the hate cases on it. Will we see poisons, bombs & what-have-u in our China towns or any Chinese businesses? What's next if this anti movement is pushed to fanatical level by our own MPs & government?:
 http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/02/hate-crimes-unit-called-in-after-purported-animal-rights-group-threatens-to-poison-food-in-chinatown/

Do you Chinese want to see the day when you don't feel secured in any places where Chinese frequented, when anti-Chinese sentiment is fermented vehemently by the anti-shark-fin movement? I don't think I want to see that day. To have our MPs legitimizing such sentiment directly & indirectly is a total waste of my tax money, and at least I can protest their involvement in this. We have more urgent tasks to protect our own environment and our wild salmon. Deal with that first and what is wrong with my opinion? Why is that stupid?

Am I alone in thinking the west is being hypocritical about imposing ban on our cultural dish while they can enjoy caviar, tuna, & Japanese whales? Read this:
 http://necescity.com/dining/item/1449-shark-fin-soup-%E2%80%93-a-battle-for-hegemony-between-east-west?.html

This report in Taiwan shows that majority of cultural Chinese want their soup despite the utmost media blize started by the other side, as most major hotels still serve the dish. However, the ending part of the report shows there is the tendency to bring the whole shark back for use instead of dumping over the sea to satisfy the so called wastage factor in the attack (which I consider hypocritical comparing how much wastage in shrimp fleet). The industry will comply to more regulation, perhaps even a quota. That is the way to go. Not banning the dish is an encroachment to our culture. Read:
 http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2011/11/27/2003519318

Again, I am for countries engaging in meaningful negotiations on regulating the shark harvest industry, both in method & number. Banning shark fin without exhausting such process is an assault on our culture, when more endangered species are still being harvested in the west or Japan, and when more wasteful fishing methods like shrimp trawling & drift nets are not stopped. I am proud to stand & defend our cultural heritage. If that is considered utmost stupidity by another Chinese, I have no respect for such person and no apology forthcoming. If my points are not acceptable, debate it. Considering that negative ads are all over the media in the State in their presidential bid, where folks are giving reasons to back up their points against your opponents, I am doing mine against those extremist groups who try to encroach on our culture like they try to do it to the Inuit. If that is stupidity, so be it. If defending Chinese pride after it had been hammered for years is considered stupid, so be it.

Have a Happy New Year folks.

[Nina]

Stop using ‘cultural heritage’ as an excuse. Lots of dumb stuff goes on around the world because of it. Cultures have always evolved and will continue to evolve – hopefully for the better.

[Rodney]

There was nothing personal about my post. I don't know who you are beside your handle on the forum. You may think it's personal because I'm pretty open on who I am, what I do in public. Those arguments were so ridiculous that I am not going to invest the time to demonstrate why they are so, I'd feel that my intelligence is insulted. Yes, it's disrespectful to your views, but I have no respect for deliberate ignorance used by individuals who feel their self entitlement is more important than their impacts on this planet.

"Traitor"... Thanks for the laugh. Here's the difference between you and me. You think shark fin soup is a race issue, I don't.

[Sandy]

Stop using ‘cultural heritage’ as an excuse. Lots of dumb stuff goes on around the world because of it. Cultures have always evolved and will continue to evolve – hopefully for the better.

yup and well said: pretty evident that stupidity crosses all race and cultural barriers.

[DragonSpeed]

EVERYONE - Please....

As the "non-drugged-up" moderator in this forum I'd like to say a few things to ALL:

Attack the points, the ideas, the philosophy, but DO NOT ATTACK the poster.  Remember, internally you may think a guy is a moron, or what-have-you, but keep moral high ground, do not stoop to personal level attacks.... it drags us down into the mud and we all know how hard it is to fish when you're mired in the mud.

Happy New Year all! Group Hug?

BTW, some of the Buddhist Vegetarian restaurants make some excellent imitation shark fin soup....  For those that CRAVE the texture.  

[itosh]

I've heard that bears, both black and grizzly, have also killed and eaten humans.  And I'm sure it wasn't done in a merciful fashion.  Using that 3rd world way of thinking, we should be killing the bears and cutting off the paws and taking the gall bladder and selling it to China.  We can just discard the rest of the bear in the bush because it will decompose and add nutrients to the soil as well as feed a plethora of scavengers.

Also, not condoning the tuna fishery or whaling, but I'm pretty sure that at least 90% of the kill is eaten.  Afterall, it is the meat that is eaten.  In the case of tuna, even the head is consumed on occasion (Google "kabutoyaki").  Pretty much the exact opposite of the Shark Fin industry.

Shane

[liketofish]

Thanks Dragonspeed. You are a gentlement and a sensible moderator. In any debates, both sides must have different opinions. It is important to respect other's reasoning becuase it is his/her reasoning from his/her background/educastion. It makes sense to him/her. This world is full of hate due to intolerance of differing opinions. We see that in religions, in politics, in everything. We need to learn to respect each other's opinions without resorting to emotional outbursts & violence. Debate and give your points. Let others who read it decide what they believe or not believe. Among us Chinese governments, we see differences in such intolerance. In a political setting, you can be exiled or killed if you don't agree with your political opponents in China. In Taiwan, chairs & objects will be tossed to each other with personal insults, and in Hong Kong, legislature members just voice their opinions and protest mildly, much like Canada. So perhaps the latter model is a better way to follow here. I appreicate the mod will delete insulting comments directed to posters personally out of emotion. I disagree that posters can be insulted or treated without politeness because they have no face. There is a human soul behind each poster name. So treat it with more dignity than a shark. 

Well, New Year is such a festivity. It was good to forget about these hateful debates for a few days. This is my argument on one of the accusations of the anti-soupers:

Accusation - Chinese are wasteful to just eat the fin but not the shark, so no shark fin to you Chinese. Really? Are you kidding me? Think again  - Chinese as a race has endured numerous famines in history. They treasure every bit of edible parts. The argument from western extremists that Chinese are wasteful to just eat the fin and dump the shark is a plain stupid argument, and only stupid people, particularly stupid Chinese will side with such accusation.Why? In Chicken, fish, cattle, pig, any animal foods, Chinese eat their heads, tails, claws, guts, bones, organs & what have you. The west only eat the best meaty parts - steak, breast, ribs, and dump the rest. What a waste (to us cultural Chinese). When a fish dish is served in a Chinese dinner table, it is eaten down to the bones. Even the gelatinous stuff among fins are sucked clean, the head & tail chewed up. Some of my Chinese fishing friends will wait at the fish cleaning stations of mariners such to collect all the 'waste' that other don't see fit to eat, the heads, tails, guts, even the 'fat' belly meats are sometimes discarded but treasured by us Asians. So why the heck the west have the moral superiority high ground to attack the Chinese as being wasteful in eating shark fin only. They say you Chinese eat the whole shark? How about Chinese drop the left over shark to any western restaurant for free and let them serve to their clients if that pleases them. Chinese is a hungry race in the past but not dumb. History have told them that stuff except the fins is poisonous, and mercury poisoning in the old days mean sure death. If must have killed many of them before they realize which parts are edible. If the west does not want to eat guts, organs, bones, heads (shamelessly killing the animals and not eating all its edible parts), and now turn around to tell the Chinese to eat the whole mercury-laden shark as a price to justify their accusation, knowing that stuff will kill their fellow human beings, I don't know what moral ground they are on. Perhaps nothing but western cultural arrogance - I must be right,  and you in the developeing worlds are wrong.  

Shark harvest should be regulated and method of harvest/finning be done humanely. It should be regulated like blue fin tuna, cod, whales etc. to sustainable level. But a ban on an individual rights to enjoy their cultural dish is an assault on our culture. It is a movement by the animal rights extremists, PETA, etc. who love to shut down fishing too for us. I am sure they will get their way some day using the cruelty argument. Good luck.  Have a good day.

[liketofish]

Be fair to our human race - hey, just be fair. To some of you PETA inclined thinking folks (I am not naming names), why so keen on attacking me on my post. I proviide links on articles on the ridiculous karma thinking by those animal rights guys, the extremists. Have you read them? Why so slient on such rediculous thing? Are you agreeing with them that the tragedy of the Japanese tsunami is a karma to killing sharks. It is chilling that we homo sapients can be so 'twisted' in this cruel thinking about our own kind. Is human life really nothing compared to animal. I literally have read PETA posters say the Japanese who kill sharks deserve their tragic fate. No wonder none of these animal rights folks have any concern or will do media bliz on millions of unborn, defenseless, voiceless human fetes (we are animals too) sucked, broken, fragmented cruelly out of the wombs while they swarm to protect a stranded seal, whale or shark and perhaps spending on helicopter airlifts sometimes by conservationists. 

[lucky]

liketofish your posts are laden with arrogance and ignorance.  I'm curious,  do you consider yourself a Chinese Canadian or are you just another Chinese living in Canada?  Wondering if you also feel the same entitlements about consuming tiger penis and other endangered animal parts?

[liketofish]

Another personal attack without any substantiation. Just because others don't agree with you? Who is the arrogant party here? Present the points and support them well before you make blanket biased accusation. I am asking any one to comment why it is ok for the anti-shark-fin groups to consider the 20,000 Japanese tsunami victims as a karma for fishing for sharks. So we are all killing salmons and edible fish here, are you prepared to take comments like that from organizations like PETA if we get hit by an earthquake/tsunami here with massive deaths because they think we killed millons of salmon every year here?

I make no attack on others until they attack me. Arrogant people think they know it all and consider others stupid without attempting to debate. So please debate by points where I show arrogance and where I show ignorance. I am university educated. Yes I watched HD programming on Oasis & Discovery channels and I heard all the arguments put out by the anti-shark folks right from the beginning of the movement when Cousteau's son (I think called Philippe) was on the fore front to criticize the soup, as well as many shark-dive operators. I agree with them there needs to have conservation on shark hunt. There needs to be treaties & mechanism of verificatiion.  I just don't agree on the method by shutting down the choices and voices of us Chinese folks living in Canada or overseas under different western jurisdictions when the west are eating their own more endangered animals than sharks and engaged in more environment destructive means of fishing or raising fish like fish farm, drift nets, shrimp trawlling, to name a few.

I lived in China & HK 25 years. But I lived in Canada for over 30 years. In HK I have seen western arrogance in the old days when they labelled places with sign which read 'Chinese and dogs not allowed!'. In Canada, most folks are great and open minded. But I have seen many cases when the ugly faces of racism were shown towards Chinese or Asians in general by some people. Despite that, I love Canada, but I also love & respect the cultural heritage I came from. I am not ashamed to be a proud Canadian Chinese. That doesn't mean I am in agreement with the politicians in all they do. Who else are? Are you? Politicians have no business to join forces with animal rights groups. Just because they don't eat the soup doesn't give them the rights to take away the freedom of choices of the Chinese people living in this country. It is actually arrogance displayed by these folks in overriding Chinese's freedom of choice. Chinese here can make the choice to eat the soup or not. Let them decide after listening to all arguments. If the majority of Chinese don't want to eat that soup, no one will see the need to import it. To override that freedom of choice is arrogance of the western politicians. Try do that to the other cultures who are more vocal & would likely cause violence or civil unrest, see what happen. They can't force their will on the natives. They can't force their will on how other cultures do with their clothing or head dress as the muslim & Indo canadians will shout back. But Chinese in general are passive politically. There are not that many Chinese MPs or MLAs, or mayors/city councillors in proportion to the Chinese population here. And Chinese in general mind their own business and do not want to fight government authority. In Cantonese at least, we have a saying, "don't hold government office when you are alive, and don't enter hell when you die". Bad advice there. This is why Chinese is so submissive to government in general and even to bosses over them. Chinese unions can do nothing like western unions. They ne want to challenge their bullies much.

I am stating the West is stomping on our culture by banning our ceremonial cultural dish. The movement was engineered by animal rights groups aided by conservationists. They have done this to the Inuit people with the seal hunt causing total disruption to their way of life for eon of time. Now the seal population explodes and they are eating up the cod stock and our salmon stock. I have never seen so many seals in the Vedder, not in the canal only. Some even make it up to Ranger run. I hate to see humans become sushi material for the sharks if their population explodes too. I have seen some documentaries showing reef sharks hunting in wolf pack at night. They don't just eat skates. They chew up everything inside cracks and holes. No parrot fish or groupers stand a chance if they get invaded. All the 'top predator' talk benefitting the reef. Have any official scientific studies been done by non-biased ocean scientists with control experiments on these. Even if it is true that there will be more skates & octopuses around with less sharks and they eat up the lobsters and shell fish, so what? The west don't eat skates, but Asians love it, not just Chinese alone. You see skates in most Asian seafood markets in Asia but you won't see shark because shark body is mercury laden and Asians are not dumb to risk mercury poisoning.

Arrogance are people who make personal insulting statement without attempting any debate. Ignorance? The animal rights people consider any body who oppose their statement as stupid & ignorant. There is no debate that sharks, like most seafood man prey on are declining. Regulation is needed in all cases for all animals to maintain substainable harvest. Not total banning which is an arrogant attack on our cultural heritage. Blue fin tuna has a lot less population than shark and they will not eat humans if over-populated. Every large tuna taken is celebrated (like the one just on the news). Yet I consider another rare big spawner taken out of that rare stock. I am sad for the blue fins and I won't order it even I like sushi a lot. Sharks are a lot more numerous & spread out than blue fin, as well sturgeon. Yet there is no attempt by the west or the animal right groups to ban the sales of either these two fish or their by-product (like caviar). This is plain hypocrisy and arrogance. I can eat what I like, you can't. That is arrogance.

I welcome debating with points and any further personal attack without substantiation or making an attempt to debate by point will not be answered. I am actually wasting my time here. This is just too small a venue to debate & battle with the soup banning movement on the Chinese culture. Thank you folks for the time to read my posts anyway.

[Bassonator]

Wasnt binding womens feet part of your culture too...but that has stopped...why??

[itosh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkoPQwYL9ys&sns=fb

 
I wonder if liketofish also buys products made out of rhino horns for its "medicinal powers" because, lets face it, its part of his culture.  And who are we to tell him and the Chinese population what not to do because China is not a poor 3rd world country anymore (its just a rich 3rd world country).

[StillAqua]

Think it's time to let this thread (and the shark fishery) die a natural death. Canada and many other countries already ban the trade in hundreds of plant and animal species for very good conservation reasons. I've never seen so many silly rationalizations for an unregulated and unsustainable fishery.