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[Rodney]

rln, I'm not entirely against hatchery production of steelhead. You're right regarding the difference in DFO and MOE's stand on hatcheries, and that reflects my point on the demand. MOE has a different objective when it comes to managing the resource. Maybe they don't see a demand for steelhead harvest in the sportfishery. Angling participation is obviously less in the steelhead fishery than samlon fishery, those numbers are used to determine the supply.

Coquihalla River, is its steelhead population near carry capacity? (I don't know, so this is not a rhetorical question) The number seems consistently low every season. Does it hold enough spawning ground and primary productivity for more fish?

The problem with the Squamish stocks, from my understanding, is the lack of spawning habitat as most of them spawn in tertiary tributaries that are poor? bkk can probably fill in more on that since he works up there.

Like I stated in the previous post, an increase in hatchery steelhead production would be in the anglers' best interest, so as a fisherman it's a welcoming idea to me. However, there are problems based on my past biology schooling. In the end, it all comes down to what we want to see. Do we want to see a "wild" river with smaller populations of fish that are products of natural selection? Or, do we want to see rivers where day trips are possible from Vancouver with large returns of fish that are available to be harvested by anglers?

[Old Black Dog]

I agree with RIN and MOE does not raise Steelhead as the $ are to high for the return on investment. Those are THEIR words.

By the way, it is possible to have your cake and eat it to. As RIN said the systems can have augmented hatchery stocks and all do better.
The Squamish was hatchery augmented for years, the fish were NOT MARKED and it was very succcessful.
MOE shut it down as they did MOST of the rivers on the ECVI and the lower mainland.

The Coq. river is not at its carrying capacity. This river has been totally screwed by the province and they yet have resolved the problems that they created.

[rln]

Rod, I never assumed you were for or against hatcheries
1) the Coq is nowhere near capacity. Some years in the good old days the return was plus 1000 fish nowadays usually less than 300.
2) bbk is for some augmentation on the squamish system. He is tired also of fishing a river almost devoid of steelhead.
 
Now here is a question for you. Do you think MOE biologist's want hatchery programs to work or do you think due to the way they want programs to work, they are doomed to failure right from the start.  A few examples to think about are:

1) many years ago now, MOE planted hatchery fish on the Ashlu river ABOVE the falls so there was no available spawning habitat for the returning fish, plus at the time they a)never marked them and b) never did any studies to say one way or the other if the program was successful. But ask now and they will tell you it was not

2) On the Seymour river there is so few steelhead smolts that studies claim they are using only 10% of the available habitat, yet MOE still makes the Seymour Salmonid Society release all the smolts from Swinbourne road downstream and they do not allow them access to ANY of the good habitat available above the canyon.
 
3) On the Capilano, a couple of years ago they raised somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 steelhead smolts at the hatchery then proceeded to put them above the Dam knowing full well that there is an 80% mortality rate on these smolts when they come over the spillway. Makes a lot of sense to me. Why not just raise 80% fewer and plant them below the dam?
 I feel the most of these programs are destine for failure before they are even started due to the way a lot of these programs are done. There is a great demand for a harvest fishery on steelhead, but there is NO mandate within MOE to provide a sportfishery of any type let alone a harvest fishery. Another question would be, Why will MOE NOT give steelhead or cutthroat hatchery production to the BC Freshwater Fisheries Society, yet they have no problem with giving these people all the trout work for lake fishing? Just a food for thought.

[Old Black Dog]

Many years ago now, MOE planted hatchery fish on the Ashlu river ABOVE the falls so there was no available spawning habitat for the returning fish, plus at the time they a)never marked them and b) never did any studies to say one way or the other if the program was successful. But ask now and they will tell you it was not.
=================================================================
I am told that they are still there and some guides are fishing them.

[funpig]

I just read Ernest Brannon's article.  See www.nwfishermen.org/120-05.htm regarding his take on Hatchery Benefits and Risks.

In this article, he concluded that "Contrary to the hatchery critics, artificial propagation should be viewed as a powerful tool in the conservation of wild fish that can be relatively free of long-term genetic risks, when working with local broodstock. Using integrated hatchery/wild fish, population structure of the native fish can be maintained in the presence of reduced habitat, marine related population crashes, and selective fisheries."

In this particular article, he seems to debunk the perceived risks of mixing hatchery and wild fish. 

I would note that he does write extensively in other articles about the mixing of non-native hatchery (namely, fish brought in from other system) with native wild fish.  In this situation, if the non-native hatchery fish is a stronger or more productive strain, it may displace the the native wild population over time (Brannon also points out that the benefit of this is enhanced diversity).  However, this is a different situation from what we have been talking about so far which is allowing native hatchery fish to intermingle with native wild fish.

I say you (or I) can bonk as many hatchery fish that you (or I) can legally catch.  But IMO I don't think it is correct to rationalize that the bonking of hatchery fish is necessary for the preservation of the genetics of the wild stock.

[Rodney]

rln, sorry, kept forgetting to reply to your post. I can't really comment much on the projects done by MOE in the past without hearing their reasonings and I am not familiar with them. I think this is a good reason to push further for an advisory committee with the province like what the SFAC and SFAB have been doing with DFO. We've had a MOE staff attending the last couple meetings at our SFAC, very useful.

Regarding Coquihalla River, if historical return was at 1000+ spawners, can the current state of the river hold that many fish? Has its carry capacity changed over the years due to habitat alteration etc? I'm asking, should habitat enhancement be done first prior to augmentation so there is more spawning habitat for more spawning fish?

"Another question would be, Why will MOE NOT give steelhead or cutthroat hatchery production to the BC Freshwater Fisheries Society, yet they have no problem with giving these people all the trout work for lake fishing? Just a food for thought."

Well that's easy, MOE is trying to take out sportfishing from the equation in river management?

[redside1]

MOE should be changed from the Ministry of Environment to the Ministry of Extinction when it comes to steelhead management at the present time.

[Steelhawk]

Last year I met a flyfishing steelheader from White Rock.  He told me that he was retired, and he spent lots of time fishing.  He said in terms of steelhead population of steelhead rivers, ours are just miniscule compared to the American rivers.  He was tossing out a series of names of American rivers from the Russian in northern California to the Clearwater,  Williamette, Deschute & Umqua & Rogue of Oregon, to Cowlitz & Klamath of WA, & those in Olympic Peninsula Wa.  He said you would not believe the phenomenal steelhead fishing in some of those rivers, 20-30 hookups per day are common, and fish runs are in 20K to 40K steelheads per river. Some rivers, particularly those in Olympic Peninsula, produce huge steelies.  So he said in his retirement, he only fished the U.S. rivers now.

I have not fished the U.S. waters yet, but if his stories are true, what the heck is happening to our great Canadian fishing?  Is MOE the culpit in the decline of our fish stock?  I mean, if our Vedder is considered among the best steelhead river here, and yet most fishers are skunked in their trips (even top rods), how do we come to this, that even our best river is so far behind in productivity?

Has any one fished the U.S. steelhead rivers to echo this gentleman's comment?

[Big Steel]

I have fished the Sol-Duc, Hoe and some other rivers from washington.  I would not put that much faith in what the retirey was saying.  While I was fishing there over a couple of years, I went with many of the areas top guides.  Our best day was hooking three steel.  While chatting with one of the guides in particular, he was mentioning that even 10-15 years ago, the fishing was great, they would have no problem getting their clients into multipule fish days.  But, year after year it was getting slower and slower.  Till, even the springs were on a major decline.  AS for the steel, of the time that I spent down there, we only ever saw maybe 10 steelies hooked.  But on a plus side there was a beauty chrome 23lb Buck that was landed.  We followed to fight about 2.5 km down river, then got out of the boat and helped the poor guy land his beast.  It was an amazing Steel.
  But overall, I was left with the impression that their fishery was going downhill very fast.  The only ones that were doing good down there for steel was the ones with the nets!!  If you know what I mean.  All the guides I talked to had the same feeling, and you could cut the tension with a knife whenever the topic came up!!  Thus I have not been back for over 2 years.  I was informed that it would more than likely be a waste of money.   

[Sterling C]

Anyone who sees these pics might think different than Big Steel.

http://www.lettypotter.com/

[Big Steel]

OK SO, I didn't have much luck with the guides I was with!!!  I didn't say that everyone else would have the same experiece as I did!!  If you have the right guide, maybe anything is possible.  I was just relating what I saw and what I was told!!   That was just MY view on the topic!!

[BwiBwi]

Did you met this gentleman on the river?


By the way Big_steel you need your beauty sleep aren't you going fishing in the morning?

[Big Steel]

Thinking about it, but it seems as though I have noone to go with, so I'm not sure!!

[Steelhawk]

BwiBwi, no, I didn't meet him in the Vedder.  I posted my new Patagonia boots for sales (a bit too tight for me) on Fishbc, and he came from White Rock to my home to buy it.  Then he proceeded to reveal to me where he was fishing, and how great steelheading was down south. I don't think he was boasting or lying.  He was a nice, soft speaking gentleman.  He told me about the fantastic fishing down south only because I asked him where he would mainly use the Patagonia Beefy boots.   

[BwiBwi]

No actually I wasn't calling him lying.  We're visiting my cousin down south, Redmond next week for 3 days, and will be doing some fishing. I was hoping if you meet him again can ask him for fly pattern suggestion.