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Author Topic: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon  (Read 8479 times)

wildmanyeah

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Re: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2018, 08:00:31 AM »

What’s the point of raising salmon in hatchery if their just going to be eaten by seals. Sooner or later the question will need to be addressed.

What we have is an enhanced seal population not a salmon one.

Their is some serious management actions coming down the pipe.If DFO does not take an eco system approach to management then its lickly some salmon stocks are stuck in what they call a “predator.pit”

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RalphH

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Re: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2018, 09:58:27 AM »

Most assessments say seals have returned to more or less their pre-20th century natural population levels. Overall this suggests there is plenty of seal food out there and most evidence that salmon constitutes a minority (30% range) of their diet though it is important at certain times.

A better idea than a costly, unpopular seal cull that probably won't work is to re-think our enhancement models. In the spring and the fall the current model just produces a free lunch and dinner for every seal nearby to take advantage.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 10:10:38 AM by RalphH »
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"Two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity... though I am not completely sure about the Universe" ...Einstein as related to F.S. Perls.

wildmanyeah

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Re: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2018, 10:32:25 AM »

I say an Eco Based management approach is needed because...

are Herring,Anchovies,Smelt,flounder,rockfish,salmon,squid at their pre-20th century natural population levels? If all those things were we would not have a problem.

They are just adapting to what every they can find as a major food source and now it's becoming more salmon smolts.  why would we manage at pre-20th century natural population level for seals but not for everything else????
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RalphH

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Re: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2018, 04:17:47 PM »

this all presupposes that a) a dramatic reduction is seals will cause a dramatic increase in salmon populations. No one who has seriously looked at the issue has much confidence this is so. b) it's even possible to reduce seals down to such a population level at a reasonable cost.

The issues we have with a species like salmon, herring, anchovy are far more complicated than seal numbers.

IMO it really is kind of half-arsed to think a seal cull will turn things around
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"Two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity... though I am not completely sure about the Universe" ...Einstein as related to F.S. Perls.

wildmanyeah

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Re: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2018, 06:41:48 PM »

this all presupposes that a) a dramatic reduction is seals will cause a dramatic increase in salmon populations. No one who has seriously looked at the issue has much confidence this is so. b) it's even possible to reduce seals down to such a population level at a reasonable cost.

The issues we have with a species like salmon, herring, anchovy are far more complicated than seal numbers.

IMO it really is kind of half-arsed to think a seal cull will turn things around

Well DFO is out their getting numbers killed 60-70 seals in a river on vancouver island, Not one public complaint.  So ill guess will see how that data panns out.
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RalphH

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Re: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2018, 08:15:58 AM »

Periodic seal culls on the Courtney/Puntledge have been authorized by DFO for over 20 years without a lot of effect. 
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"Two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity... though I am not completely sure about the Universe" ...Einstein as related to F.S. Perls.

wildmanyeah

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Re: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2018, 11:47:04 AM »

Some progress is being made on this file, last I herd over a 130
First Nations bands have signed on to having a seal harvest. Proposal is suppose to be handed to DFO in the next while.

That’s the rumour on the street anyways.
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clarki

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Re: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2019, 11:38:36 AM »

Oregon begins killing sea lions after relocation fails
https://vancouversun.com/pmn/news-pmn/oregon-begins-killing-sea-lions-after-relocation-fails/wcm/7873c7dd-e033-4bce-80f3-3abe2dd5fefe

I wonder if U253 will be one of the 93?
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DanTfisherman

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Re: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2019, 10:51:18 AM »

I could support a seal cull if we as a species could take responsibility for our actions, come up with a short term and long term plan and goals, and go from there.  Those of you who are using "historic numbers" from the 60's and 70's are not accurate.  I saw a report where a marine biologist reported that "historic numbers" for seals and sea lions from the late 1880's would place them in the 150 000 range or higher.  Can not remember exactly, but he said it was much higher than the numbers being reported on the various fishing sites.

So, what has happened?  My gut tells me we are to blame, and now we scapegoat the seals and sea lions and call for a cull for somewhat selfish reasons.  Moving up estuaries and grabbing salmon is an evolved, survival strategy.  These animals cannot be blamed for this.  It is not much different than us evolving and getting "better fishfinders" to find the fish, become more efficient, and catch more fish.  In a sense, I guess their evolved ability is infringing on our need to have it all our way.

Historically, did so many animals move up systems and wipe fish out where they were easy to pick off?  No  they did not have to.  There were enough salmon and sea life in the ocean to support their numbers, they could find their food in the ocean, and they did not have to make efforts such as entering estuaries.  But, at the turn of the century, we totally changed the landscape when it came to harvesting and "living off" the fish species.  Up to the turn of the century, it was sustainable and we harvested for the purpose of feeding ourselves.  Once the turn of the century came around, the fishery became an economic industry and the sustainability of the system was disregarded.  Huge canneries opened up and fish were harvested and sent all over the world.  The nature of catching fish improved, got better, and we harvested larger numbers much quicker.  We then came up with salmon farms and salmon ranching as strategies to increase harvests.  At the same time, we destroyed the habitat they were reared in and dedregated systems and their spawning habitat.  We still demanded what we had come to expect, and thus blamed other predators such as seals and sea lions, culled them, and wiped them out.

Seal and sea lion populations are re-bounding and moving back to historic levels, yet the food resources are scarcer and hard to find.  They are evolving and coming up with strategies to feed themselves and thus survive, and because they are doing this and interfering with our piece of the pie, we decide to punish them and cull them once again.

Now, even though I have pointed out the flaws of our ways, sounding anti-cull, this is not the case.  For the long term health of salmonoids and the long term health of the seal and sea lion populations, I believe we need an organized cull of some sort to support the various species.  But, this is a short term solution and unfortunately, at this point, it sounds like their is no long term plan.  The long term plan must be addressed or else the cull is useless, reckless, and unfair.  The long term plan needs to lay blame with us for the situation with salmon and we need to address this and fix this.

Long term, we need to look at the resource and cannot choose to exploit it and abuse it as we have.  If we approve a cull, we need to also address all the various segments involved in resource exploitation, how they impact fish stocks, and all need to have increased/improved regulations put in place to allow the fish stocks re-build.  As the fish stocks re-build, we need to recognize we also need to allow the seal and sea lion stocks re-build, and grow to historic levels along with the fish.

If such a plan was stated, devised, and addressed, I could then feel better about a cull.

As it stands now, it just reminds me of short term plans to address invasive species in lakes.  We discover bass or perch in a great fishing lake.  To save other nearby fisheries and lakes, we poison the whole lake with Rotenone, wiping out all that was alive in the lake.  We start again, introduce our desired species, help our desired species to re-build, to then discover again that human anglers have once again introduced invasive species to the lake again, so we once again kill the lake and start from scratch.

With the current situation, I do feel we need a cull to benefit the fish and all the various species that make use of the fish resource.  But, this short term solution should only have to be utilized once, as we realize our negative impact, take responsibility, and work to correct it.  I would not like to see a recurring cycle where we keep blaming seals and sea lions and cull them on a recurring basis due to our own errors and selfishness.

Dano
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RalphH

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Re: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2019, 02:04:10 PM »

Thoughtful stuff Dan. That a seal cull may significantly increase salmon returns is an untested assumption. The studies just confirm what most know about the natural world - big things eat lots of little things. Work Professor Scott Hinch at UBC and the broad eco-system study on the Cowichan show that many predators consume that huge quantities of young salmon, including char, trout, various birds racoon and so on. A seal cull may do nothing but leave a space to filled by other predators.

Most scientific work on predator culls show the culls seldom acheive their objectives and often introduce many unexpected negative consequences. You are quite to caution we need to take this idea slowly and much study.
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"Two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity... though I am not completely sure about the Universe" ...Einstein as related to F.S. Perls.

jessestmars

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Re: Sea Lions vs Salmon/Steelhead in Oregon
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2019, 01:53:04 PM »

The Pacific Salmon Foundation put on a great presentation this past November. Lots of great recent info on Sea Lions, Seals, & Killer Whales populations.

Watch on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zz8aEAg7dI