Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: clarki on March 22, 2018, 11:34:36 AM
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There's been a lot of discussion on this board about the impact of seals on smolts and returning adults in BC waters.
Now imagine massive, hungry, sea lions parked below a falls on a narrow stretch of the Willamette River, 40 km south of Portland.
Sea lions congregating below Bonneville Dam on the Columbia River is nothing new, however it is new to see them taking up residence in smaller tributaries.
Make sure you read the last sentence of the article to learn the success of trapping and re-locating #U253.
It's a complicated issue...
http://vancouversun.com/news/world/sea-lions-gobbling-fragile-fish-in-us-northwest-survival-war/wcm/7f575ea5-06fe-48bd-90aa-717d3128c532
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Squamish stream keepers just counted 197 seals in the system
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Little Campbell river Hatchery was decimated this year when a bunch of seals swam all the way up. They found steelhead tails,heads ect on the beach, Herd the slaughter was pretty complete. Sad
Do we want an enhanced seal population or do we want an enhanced salmon population?
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Although it was years ago a friend and I saw a seal in the Chwk up in Bell Acres Rd. area
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There was a discussion/article posted on here in the past few years that said something along the lines of the Georgia straits historical Seal population was 40,000 to 60,000 and that it is now upwards to 1,000,000? I'm sure that same trend will be elsewhere.. and yeah.. they like eating baby Salmon... I'm not surprised. Wasn't there a Sea Lion living in the Stave for a while? It is savage, and they clearly decimate, but we scared/killed off their predators and are too animal friendly for a cull.
currently thought to be about 105,000 for the entire Province - perhaps 40,000 in the Strait of Georgia.
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/338997.pdf
During 1879-1914 and 1962-1968, harbour seals in B.C. were commercially harvested for pelts, and
over-hunting during these two periods depleted populations. Bounty payments offered for predator
control during 1914-1964 maintained populations below natural levels. Aerial surveys indicate that the abundance of harbour
seals in B.C. has increased dramatically since the species was protected in 1970. Populations grew exponentially during the 1970s and 1980s, but growth rates began to slow in the 1990s, and the population now appears to have stabilized. In 2008 it was estimated that about 105,000 harbour seals inhabited coastal waters of B.C., compared with perhaps 10,000 when the first surveys were conducted in the early 1970s. The current population size appears to be similar to pre-exploitation levels that occurred in the 1880s, and recent increases can be attributed to the recovery of populations from over-harvesting.
This is harbour seals alone - sea lions have experienced similar population explosions once they were protected in 70s.
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Sea Lion returns to river by the falls after a 5 day swim. ( article ) and extra hungry to boot!!!
Said they kill one but another takes it's place!!!
Well ya can kill a flea on a dog but there 's more fles. Just keep killing the fleas one by one & eventually there 's no more a flea problem. Keep the Sea Lions in the salt. If coming to the river ...they get killed.
Humanely (sp?) maybe good for the barbecue.
Black bears if being a neighbour problem get killed humanely. Gov can get $$$ for parts/ meat. On,y problem bears.
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Squamish stream keepers just counted 197 seals in the system
Jeez thats obscene. More seals than fish returning to the upper river.
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seals move around quite a bit and double counting is likely. I wouldn't take that number as 'gospel'
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Double counting is possible, but double killing is unlikely. Sea seals should remain in the sea. If they venture out in the river they should be shot.
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they are protected by Federal Law. Occasionally permits do get issued to kill nuisance seals.
Seals have been common in our local rivers for as long as I have been fishing them. I'd say river sections close to tide water are part of their natural habitat. I recall seeing seals in the lower Fraser in the 60s while bar fishing. I also saw people shoot at them. They were bad shots and the seals soon reappeared. Other than at Furry Creek I've never lost a fish to a seal locally. I have lost fish to loons while lake fishing. Once you wise up to it, it is fairly easy to avoid that.
Many fishermen seem to hate and want to harm just about anything that gets between them and the fish they seek. Seals, eagles, otters, killer whales and other 'predatory' species of fish. I believe there was once a bounty on Dolly Varden (aka Bull Trout these days) in BC. Now they are a highly desired and sought after sport fish & pretty much catch & release in BC rivers.
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Double counting is possible, but double killing is unlikely. Sea seals should remain in the sea. If they venture out in the river they should be shot.
X2. Seals that venture out into the tiny eco system of the upper section of a river where salmon/steelhead congregate to be ready to spawn should be eliminated. They don't live in their natural eco system of the ocean. I once saw a seal as high up as the Ranger Run. I am sure that thing would go up to the Slab and even the old limit hole where fish sit in large number and not actively swimming to avoid being eaten. How on earth fish stock can take that kind of predation at close range day in and day out? Seals doing that should be shot to protect precious fish stock from going extinct.
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Unfortunately outside of the fishing community very few people would agree that seals or sea lions should be shot whenever they venture into rivers. Sea Lions and seals are abundant in the Fraser when the eulachon run in late April. It's a natural thing man! Go see them sometimes - it's a sight!
Many river guides report that clients enjoy seeing wildlife including pinnepeds when out fishing on the Fraser.
There is no bigger seal attractant on the coast to equal the massive and totally artificial run of white springs into the Vedder every fall. Maybe we should get rid of them!
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There is no bigger seal attractant on the coast to equal the massive and totally artificial run of white springs into the Vedder every fall. Maybe we should get rid of them!
Haha! add to that the several million smolts released every spring. I have a feeling DFO will be upping the chinook production on the Vedder to make orca food ... if so I expect a reduction in some other fish produced there.
With any luck that would be steelhead ;)
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One of the big thing that I don’t agree with is the Vancouver Aquarium takes in over 200 seals from all over the bc coast and rehabilitation them.
Then release them all in the same spot in Vancouver harbour.
Silly
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I can understand some will disagree with the Aquarium's rehab program however much of the recent scientific information on seal movements and feeding comes from some of the seals who have been fitted with electronics and even head cams - so there is information coming from those seals that is not available by other means.
Specific information on collection, releases and animals either euthanized or died after collection is here: https://rescue.ocean.org/patient-list
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What’s the point of raising salmon in hatchery if their just going to be eaten by seals. Sooner or later the question will need to be addressed.
What we have is an enhanced seal population not a salmon one.
Their is some serious management actions coming down the pipe.If DFO does not take an eco system approach to management then its lickly some salmon stocks are stuck in what they call a “predator.pit”
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Most assessments say seals have returned to more or less their pre-20th century natural population levels. Overall this suggests there is plenty of seal food out there and most evidence that salmon constitutes a minority (30% range) of their diet though it is important at certain times.
A better idea than a costly, unpopular seal cull that probably won't work is to re-think our enhancement models. In the spring and the fall the current model just produces a free lunch and dinner for every seal nearby to take advantage.
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I say an Eco Based management approach is needed because...
are Herring,Anchovies,Smelt,flounder,rockfish,salmon,squid at their pre-20th century natural population levels? If all those things were we would not have a problem.
They are just adapting to what every they can find as a major food source and now it's becoming more salmon smolts. why would we manage at pre-20th century natural population level for seals but not for everything else????
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this all presupposes that a) a dramatic reduction is seals will cause a dramatic increase in salmon populations. No one who has seriously looked at the issue has much confidence this is so. b) it's even possible to reduce seals down to such a population level at a reasonable cost.
The issues we have with a species like salmon, herring, anchovy are far more complicated than seal numbers.
IMO it really is kind of half-arsed to think a seal cull will turn things around
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this all presupposes that a) a dramatic reduction is seals will cause a dramatic increase in salmon populations. No one who has seriously looked at the issue has much confidence this is so. b) it's even possible to reduce seals down to such a population level at a reasonable cost.
The issues we have with a species like salmon, herring, anchovy are far more complicated than seal numbers.
IMO it really is kind of half-arsed to think a seal cull will turn things around
Well DFO is out their getting numbers killed 60-70 seals in a river on vancouver island, Not one public complaint. So ill guess will see how that data panns out.
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Periodic seal culls on the Courtney/Puntledge have been authorized by DFO for over 20 years without a lot of effect.
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Some progress is being made on this file, last I herd over a 130
First Nations bands have signed on to having a seal harvest. Proposal is suppose to be handed to DFO in the next while.
That’s the rumour on the street anyways.
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Oregon begins killing sea lions after relocation fails
https://vancouversun.com/pmn/news-pmn/oregon-begins-killing-sea-lions-after-relocation-fails/wcm/7873c7dd-e033-4bce-80f3-3abe2dd5fefe
I wonder if U253 will be one of the 93?
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I could support a seal cull if we as a species could take responsibility for our actions, come up with a short term and long term plan and goals, and go from there. Those of you who are using "historic numbers" from the 60's and 70's are not accurate. I saw a report where a marine biologist reported that "historic numbers" for seals and sea lions from the late 1880's would place them in the 150 000 range or higher. Can not remember exactly, but he said it was much higher than the numbers being reported on the various fishing sites.
So, what has happened? My gut tells me we are to blame, and now we scapegoat the seals and sea lions and call for a cull for somewhat selfish reasons. Moving up estuaries and grabbing salmon is an evolved, survival strategy. These animals cannot be blamed for this. It is not much different than us evolving and getting "better fishfinders" to find the fish, become more efficient, and catch more fish. In a sense, I guess their evolved ability is infringing on our need to have it all our way.
Historically, did so many animals move up systems and wipe fish out where they were easy to pick off? No they did not have to. There were enough salmon and sea life in the ocean to support their numbers, they could find their food in the ocean, and they did not have to make efforts such as entering estuaries. But, at the turn of the century, we totally changed the landscape when it came to harvesting and "living off" the fish species. Up to the turn of the century, it was sustainable and we harvested for the purpose of feeding ourselves. Once the turn of the century came around, the fishery became an economic industry and the sustainability of the system was disregarded. Huge canneries opened up and fish were harvested and sent all over the world. The nature of catching fish improved, got better, and we harvested larger numbers much quicker. We then came up with salmon farms and salmon ranching as strategies to increase harvests. At the same time, we destroyed the habitat they were reared in and dedregated systems and their spawning habitat. We still demanded what we had come to expect, and thus blamed other predators such as seals and sea lions, culled them, and wiped them out.
Seal and sea lion populations are re-bounding and moving back to historic levels, yet the food resources are scarcer and hard to find. They are evolving and coming up with strategies to feed themselves and thus survive, and because they are doing this and interfering with our piece of the pie, we decide to punish them and cull them once again.
Now, even though I have pointed out the flaws of our ways, sounding anti-cull, this is not the case. For the long term health of salmonoids and the long term health of the seal and sea lion populations, I believe we need an organized cull of some sort to support the various species. But, this is a short term solution and unfortunately, at this point, it sounds like their is no long term plan. The long term plan must be addressed or else the cull is useless, reckless, and unfair. The long term plan needs to lay blame with us for the situation with salmon and we need to address this and fix this.
Long term, we need to look at the resource and cannot choose to exploit it and abuse it as we have. If we approve a cull, we need to also address all the various segments involved in resource exploitation, how they impact fish stocks, and all need to have increased/improved regulations put in place to allow the fish stocks re-build. As the fish stocks re-build, we need to recognize we also need to allow the seal and sea lion stocks re-build, and grow to historic levels along with the fish.
If such a plan was stated, devised, and addressed, I could then feel better about a cull.
As it stands now, it just reminds me of short term plans to address invasive species in lakes. We discover bass or perch in a great fishing lake. To save other nearby fisheries and lakes, we poison the whole lake with Rotenone, wiping out all that was alive in the lake. We start again, introduce our desired species, help our desired species to re-build, to then discover again that human anglers have once again introduced invasive species to the lake again, so we once again kill the lake and start from scratch.
With the current situation, I do feel we need a cull to benefit the fish and all the various species that make use of the fish resource. But, this short term solution should only have to be utilized once, as we realize our negative impact, take responsibility, and work to correct it. I would not like to see a recurring cycle where we keep blaming seals and sea lions and cull them on a recurring basis due to our own errors and selfishness.
Dano
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Thoughtful stuff Dan. That a seal cull may significantly increase salmon returns is an untested assumption. The studies just confirm what most know about the natural world - big things eat lots of little things. Work Professor Scott Hinch at UBC and the broad eco-system study on the Cowichan show that many predators consume that huge quantities of young salmon, including char, trout, various birds racoon and so on. A seal cull may do nothing but leave a space to filled by other predators.
Most scientific work on predator culls show the culls seldom acheive their objectives and often introduce many unexpected negative consequences. You are quite to caution we need to take this idea slowly and much study.
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The Pacific Salmon Foundation put on a great presentation this past November. Lots of great recent info on Sea Lions, Seals, & Killer Whales populations.
Watch on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zz8aEAg7dI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zz8aEAg7dI)