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Author Topic: Fingers Crossed this will be funded  (Read 9328 times)

mykisscrazy

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Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« on: February 06, 2012, 07:33:59 PM »


Well if this happens....a good deal of bickering will stop on this discussion page!


Mark Hume
Scientists seek to learn whether fish farms kill fish
VANCOUVER— From Monday's Globe and Mail
Published Sunday, Feb. 05, 2012 9:06PM EST
Last updated Sunday, Feb. 05, 2012 9:13PM EST

A group of leading fisheries scientists have come up with a proposal to answer some of the most pressing and difficult environmental questions on the West Coast: Are fish farms killing wild salmon? And if so, how many?
Debate on the environmental impact of fish farms has raged in British Columbia for over a decade. Environmentalists blame aquaculture for causing a collapse in wild salmon populations by spreading sea lice and disease, but there has never been any hard scientific evidence to prove those claims.
Now David Welch, who has done groundbreaking work tracking fish at sea with acoustic transmitters, has put together a team of some of the brightest fisheries researchers in Canada to solve the mystery.
Dr. Welch testified last year to the Cohen Commission, explaining how his acoustical tracking work had shown that salmon smolts, in their first year at sea, were vanishing in Queen Charlotte Strait, just past the northern tip of Vancouver Island.
Because fish farms are clustered in a bottleneck in Discovery Passage on the northeast coast of Vancouver Island, Dr. Welch’s research raised suspicions that wild salmon might be picking up diseases and/or lice as they migrated past the farms, then dying some weeks later in Queen Charlotte Sound.
In December, Dr. Welch filed a supplemental report with the Cohen Commission, saying a new analysis shows his data is even stronger than he first thought. So many fish died north of the farms, he stated, that it could explain the Fraser River’s catastrophic sockeye collapse in 2009, when only one million fish returned to spawn, instead of 10 million.
“This level of higher mortality would be sufficient to fully explain the 10-fold decline in Fraser sockeye survival seen since 1990,” states Dr. Welch.
He cautions that “this new result remains a correlation, not proof that the fish farms caused the reduced survival,” but he proposes a way to find out.
Working with several prominent researchers – including Scott Hinch of the University of British Columbia and Kristi Miller of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans – he proposes to tag thousands of salmon smolts with acoustic transmitters and to track them up the coast, past the fish farms and deep into Queen Charlotte Sound.
The researchers would use control groups, including fish held in pens near fish farms, as well as fish released in pristine areas where they cannot come into contact with farms.
“Whether fish farming caused the widespread decline of southern British Columbia salmon stocks is hotly debated, and it is unlikely that evidence reported at the Cohen Judicial Inquiry can resolve the controversy,” Dr. Welch writes in an overview of his proposal. “[But] if fish farms reduce survival by disease transfer, parasite load, or some unknown agent, then there should be a measurable decline in survival of the exposed smolts relative to controls.”
He says the project should not only show whether fish farms are killing salmon – but how many salmon are killed.
“We believe that the statistical power of the design we have identified is high enough that by the end of 3-5 years a clear decision can be made about whether fish-farm impacts are unacceptably large and the industry should be regulated to minimize interaction with wild stocks,” writes Dr. Welch.
Several fisheries scientists have written letters of support that have been filed with the Cohen Commission.
Steven Cooke, Canada Research Chair in Fish Ecology at Carleton University, states the study is sorely needed to finally settle the issue of whether fish farms are to blame for wild salmon declines.
Paul LeBlond, Professor Emeritus at UBC, writes that the study “could save years of further bickering” over the fish-farm issue.
And Neil Frazer, Professor of Geophysics at the University of Hawaii, states that Dr. Welch’s work marks “a watershed in fisheries research” because his methods “turn fish into moving reporters on the marine environment.”
To do the study, Dr. Welch needs $3-million a year in funding for up to five years. That’s a lot of money – but it’s not much when you consider that Dr. Welch could end the war over fish farms and provide the scientific base that government needs to properly regulate the industry.
That’s a deal worth fishing for.

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alwaysfishn

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 08:02:33 PM »

Well if this happens....a good deal of bickering will stop on this discussion page!


The fish farms should have an interest in funding this, but they're not going to......  ???   because they are afraid of the results.
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Dave

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 08:27:25 PM »

Lots of big names there from the current experts of the day.  Of course this will be funded; can't not be.  Get ready to get busy A ;D
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chris gadsden

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 08:43:13 PM »

Good to see that someone else is suggesting there is a concern with the fish farms in the areas they are presently located. ;D ;D ;D

mykisscrazy

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 10:19:21 PM »

Let's see how much Alexandra Morton puts up....All groups who have an interest in wild salmon should take part
Hopefully Alwaysfishin you are wrong about the Aquaculture Industry. I would not be too surprised if they play a role.
All the people who I know who are involved in the Industry do deeply care about Wild Salmon in BC.

But imagine if it's found that the farms are not causing a problem....
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 07:50:39 AM »

Let's see how much Alexandra Morton puts up....All groups who have an interest in wild salmon should take part
Hopefully Alwaysfishin you are wrong about the Aquaculture Industry. I would not be too surprised if they play a role.
All the people who I know who are involved in the Industry do deeply care about Wild Salmon in BC.

But imagine if it's found that the farms are not causing a problem....

Do you seriously believe that these people would be fighting the feedlot industry if didn't have many reasons to believe that it is a huge risk to our wild salmon? Morton and Staniford and others are not stupid people, they just carry their passion for wild salmon, to the next level. Unfortunately they don't have the dollars backing them that the feedlots do.  All of them operate under non-profit agencies whose financial records are public. Take some time and check them out. It will answer the question as to how much Morton can afford to put up.....   ::)  ::)

Morton and Staniford's fight can be compared to the growing objection to building the Enbridge pipeline across BC.  Unfortunately the feedlot industry got a foot hold in our oceans before we realized the damage they are causing. Now they argue that they are not harming the wild salmon because you can't prove they are killing them.  ???

I was being sarcastic when I suggested that the feedlots should fund this new research. There is absolutely no chance that they will ever put up the money....  It's like asking the tobacco industry to put money into researching whether tobacco is harmful.  ???

 
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absolon

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 09:52:13 AM »

Your buddy Don doesn't operate under a registered non-profit agency and his records are certainly not public. In fact, I suspect his organization, the Global Alliance against Industrial Aquaculture, exists only on the harddrive of his laptop and some rented space on a web server. The website lists no information about who backs his group, what specifically he does and how he spends the money he raises. The only name associated with it is his, and the only contact information is an email address that leads to him.

The financial records that are available for Morton show that the bulk of the money she raises comes from re-granting by large private foundations and surprisingly little comes from Joe and Jane Citizen. Both Morton and Staniford are part of a larger coalition of groups that receive considerable funding from a network of private foundations and much less from private individuals. There is a substantial pool of money available to these groups; to suggest they are financially outgunned by the farming industry is to propagate another of the myths that the movement relies so heavily upon.

I don't care a whit about what these people believe is the truth. I care about what they can show to be the truth. It is a nonsensical idea that because they say it is so, it must be so. It is a nonsensical idea to compare this to the Enbridge situation and it is a nonsensical idea to compare the fish farms to the tobacco industry. Indeed, the whole reactionary movement has moved well beyond the reasonable and the rational into the nonsensical where people like yourselves will say absolutely anything regardless of accuracy or ability to substantiate in order to paint fish farms as evil.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 10:21:54 AM »

For someone who is so critical of anyone that posts any unsupported opinion, you certainly are throwing out a lot of it.  ::)

Whether a charity is private or public it exists to not only carry out a charitable work, but it also provides a charitable tax receipt for the donors. In other words, the contributions and expenditures are very transparent, as they must be reported through CRA. In order to receive certification as a charity the organization must demonstrate it's charitable objectives. http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/chrts-gvng/chrts/pplyng/menu-eng.html  Conditions for registering a charity and maintaining one are much more stringent since 9-11. This is because in the past charities have been used to fund terrorism. Failure to follow the guidelines set out by CRA will result in an immediate withdrawal of the organizations charitable status.

Your biased opinions with respect to the whole topic of salmon feedlots hasn't earned you a lot of credibility. Why don't you provide some backup for your financial conspiracy theories? Apply your own philosophy for a change...... "I care about what they can show to be the truth".
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 10:42:13 AM by alwaysfishn »
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 12:18:38 PM »

Af,  If you could have named the tittle of this thread what would you have named it?
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Chicken farm, pig farm, cow farm, fish farm.

alwaysfishn

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 12:27:48 PM »

Af,  If you could have named the tittle title of this thread what would you have named it?

I think the title is appropriate.  ( I corrected the spelling for you)  ;D
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absolon

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 12:41:01 PM »

For someone who is so critical of anyone that posts any unsupported opinion, you certainly are throwing out a lot of it.  ::)

Whether a charity is private or public it exists to not only carry out a charitable work, but it also provides a charitable tax receipt for the donors. In other words, the contributions and expenditures are very transparent, as they must be reported through CRA. In order to receive certification as a charity the organization must demonstrate it's charitable objectives. http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/chrts-gvng/chrts/pplyng/menu-eng.html  Conditions for registering a charity and maintaining one are much more stringent since 9-11. This is because in the past charities have been used to fund terrorism. Failure to follow the guidelines set out by CRA will result in an immediate withdrawal of the organizations charitable status.

Your biased opinions with respect to the whole topic of salmon feedlots hasn't earned you a lot of credibility. Why don't you provide some backup for your financial conspiracy theories? Apply your own philosophy for a change...... "I care about what they can show to be the truth".
 


http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/srch/basicsearchresult-eng.action?s=registered&k=Global+Alliance+Against+Industrial+Aquaculture&p=1&b=true
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 12:50:54 PM »

 


http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/srch/basicsearchresult-eng.action?s=registered&k=Global+Alliance+Against+Industrial+Aquaculture&p=1&b=true

Not sure why you posted that link.....   

Apparently you're assuming that he has registered GAAIA as his charitable organization? No wonder you post these conspiracy theories.   ;D
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absolon

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 01:04:39 PM »

Wasn't it you that just said this:

Quote
Whether a charity is private or public it exists to not only carry out a charitable work, but it also provides a charitable tax receipt for the donors. In other words, the contributions and expenditures are very transparent, as they must be reported through CRA. In order to receive certification as a charity the organization must demonstrate it's charitable objectives.

And wasn't it you that also said this:

Quote
Morton and Staniford and others are not stupid people, they just carry their passion for wild salmon, to the next level. Unfortunately they don't have the dollars backing them that the feedlots do.  All of them operate under non-profit agencies whose financial records are public. Take some time and check them out.


Are you now suggesting you were making it up? Which story is true?


And you are also wrong about saying I ever suggested he was a operating a charity. Indeed, I indicated that I suspected that the organization with the impressive sounding name existed only on his laptop and a web server. I would be very surprised if he ever issued a tax receipt since he is not registered as a non-profit charity and I would be very surprised if he was not covering his living expenses with donated money.

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alwaysfishn

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 08:28:06 PM »

Wasn't it you that just said this:

Yes... you quoted me....

And wasn't it you that also said this:


Yes.....   again you quoted me.

Are you now suggesting you were making it up? Which story is true?


Where have I suggested I was making something up? Neither are stories...  The first is referring to charities in general. The second is more specific to Morton and Staniford.

And you are also wrong about saying I ever suggested he was a operating a charity. Indeed, I indicated that I suspected that the organization with the impressive sounding name existed only on his laptop and a web server. I would be very surprised if he ever issued a tax receipt since he is not registered as a non-profit charity and I would be very surprised if he was not covering his living expenses with donated money.


Where did I say that you suggested he was operating a charity? Because you left a link in your post without any explanation.....I was guessing as to why you would have posted a link showing you searched his organization's name under CRA's registered charities.  Did you have another reason for posting that link, or should I keep guessing?

Why would you be concerned that he might be receiving money personally?? If that is the case I would suggest you should be even more impressed by the commitment of his supporters, as they would be giving him a gift with after tax dollars because they wouldn't be entitled to a tax credit. As far other registered charities, they cannot gift money to anyone other than a qualified donee (registered charity). Corporations can spend their money any way they want. However if they give money to Don on a personal basis rather than through his charity, Don would be required to claim the money as personal income.

I'm not going to help you with all your homework Absolon. You'll have to figure out for yourself how their funding works....  But until you have some facts, I suggest you are just putting out theories.

Why don't you make a donation to to Don yourself? and ask him for a receipt....  ;D  I'm quite sure Don would appreciate that.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 08:30:14 PM by alwaysfishn »
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chris gadsden

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Re: Fingers Crossed this will be funded
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 08:44:06 PM »

Let's see how much Alexandra Morton puts up....All groups who have an interest in wild salmon should take part
Hopefully Alwaysfishin you are wrong about the Aquaculture Industry. I would not be too surprised if they play a role.
All the people who I know who are involved in the Industry do deeply care about Wild Salmon in BC.

But imagine if it's found that the farms are not causing a problem....
It would be wonderful if they did not cause a problem here but as I have said so many times before  ::)  from what I have seen in other countries there has been many problems, so once again why will it be different here? Maybe that has been stated before by someone but I have yet seen a good answer and I donot know if there is one.