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[stsfisher]

https://www.bcfishingjournal.com/journals/how-many-steelhead-are-returning-to-the-chilliwack-vedder-river/

Taken from the above article. "The visual observation is close enough to see any present adipose fins on the fish in Centennial Channel. In this location they have never observed a clipped Steelhead (hatchery Steelhead)."

[avid angler]

I don’t think the 2/day rule will change much either way. Not many guys are even capable of regularly having multiple fish days.

[Dave]

https://www.bcfishingjournal.com/journals/how-many-steelhead-are-returning-to-the-chilliwack-vedder-river/

Taken from the above article. "The visual observation is close enough to see any present adipose fins on the fish in Centennial Channel. In this location they have never observed a clipped Steelhead (hatchery Steelhead)."

Yup, that's why I said later run fish.  I don't believe significant numbers of clipped steelhead spawn in the closed section of the upper river, but they are documented to spawn in the upper open area.

[stsfisher]

Yup, that's why I said later run fish.  I don't believe significant numbers of clipped steelhead spawn in the closed section of the upper river, but they are documented to spawn in the upper open area.

I would be very interested in seeing the data, showing hatchery fish spawning on redds between tamihi and the hatchery closed area. There are some nice off channels in that section you never here about being utilized by steelhead? Are they using the main river side channels?

[Roderick]

So the question is, does the closure, the good in this case (less pressure on unclipped fish) outweigh the bad (more clipped fish spawning)?

So it's a question of quality or quantity.  In this case I think quantity is the way to go. The more spawners the better. The C&R mortality on the wild fish is too high a price to pay to weed out the small(?) percentage of hatchery fish that make it that far. How many wild fish die or don't have the energy to spawn to remove a single hatchery fish from the gene pool?

In any case the quality issue tends to fix itself.  The epigenetic changes associated with hatchery fish happen very quickly in the early stages of life, in the tanks where they are raised.  Even with both parents being wild, the progeny quickly develop hatchery type epigenetic changes under hatchery conditions.  In my mind there's no reason to think that the reverse isn't true.  Even with both parents being hatchery, the progeny should epigenetically revert to wild type if raised in wild conditions in the first few months of life.  Those that don't revert are less likely to survive and contribute to the next generation. 

If the idea is to have more wild type fish return then the more spawning fish the better.

[RalphH]

actually Roderick they have been studies that examined the 'epigenetic'  issues raised for hatchery fish that spawn in the or where there is in essence some sort of cross breeding. IIRC they do find a decrease in spawning success and survival that last for more than 1 generation. One possible reason why the V/C has done so well could be the avoidance of hatchery sourced spawners essentially overwhelming wild fish. The river has a relatively long stretch of water open to fishing so there is a long filter to remove hatchery fish from the gene pool. Many other rivers don't. In the US where the were slower to invoke c&r on wild fish together with retention of hatchery fish the filter was applied to both. Also as ocean survival fell in the US they increased hatchery output to try and compensate. Something like 70% of all smolts that go out in the SOG are derived from US hatchery sources.

However I think your concerns about repeated c&r of wild fish are valid.

[psd1179]

I don’t think the 2/day rule will change much either way. Not many guys are even capable of regularly having multiple fish days.

The truth is Not many fish to show up.

[Dave]

I would be very interested in seeing the data, showing hatchery fish spawning on redds between tamihi and the hatchery closed area. There are some nice off channels in that section you never here about being utilized by steelhead? Are they using the main river side channels?

This information, and tons more, is available in the 2000-2001 telemetry study, sorry I don't have a link.  I personally have not seen spawning fish in the area mentioned.

[Dave]

If the idea is to have more wild type fish return then the more spawning fish the better.
[/font]

Good post.  The realist in me agrees with this sentence.

[jackster]

I don’t think the 2/day rule will change much either way. Not many guys are even capable of regularly having multiple fish days.

You need to get out more.

[avid angler]

You need to get out more.

😂😂😂

[stsfisher]

This information, and tons more, is available in the 2000-2001 telemetry study, sorry I don't have a link.  I personally have not seen spawning fish in the area mentioned.

Thank you Dave, I am familiar with that study.
I often wondered if fisherman were asked to also kill those telemetry hatchery fish if there would have been so many left to find the spawning grounds? I honestly believe most hatchery fish would be bonked and out of the river system before finding the spawning grounds if not told to release encountered radio tagged fish, especially with the increased number of fisherman on the river compared to 2000, even though the graph showed earlier in this post would lead you to believe differently.

I also believe the study is somewhat presumptions is saying all non retained hatchery fish that were either recaptured or not found the grounds/spawned then moved out and on their way? while the study was and is a great base line for steelhead activities it is a shame the funding couldn't be found to carry on the study and improve on its science base to help better understand an issue that really does have one of the biggest impacts when making  "best practice decisions"

Dave I believe you and Buck have done more for the steelhead in the Chilliwack valley than any other government funded project, and for that I personally thank you. I do hope that one day our Provincial leaders will understand that boots on the ground really is the best practice when trying to make decisions for these fish.

 

[RalphH]

Thank you Dave, I am familiar with that study.
I often wondered if fisherman were asked to also kill those telemetry hatchery fish if there would have been so many left to find the spawning grounds? I honestly believe most hatchery fish would be bonked and out of the river system before finding the spawning grounds if not told to release encountered radio tagged fish, especially with the increased number of fisherman on the river compared to 2000, even though the graph showed earlier in this post would lead you to believe differently.

I also believe the study is somewhat presumptions is saying all non retained hatchery fish that were either recaptured or not found the grounds/spawned then moved out and on their way? while the study was and is a great base line for steelhead activities it is a shame the funding couldn't be found to carry on the study and improve on its science base to help better understand an issue that really does have one of the biggest impacts when making  "best practice decisions"

Dave I believe you and Buck have done more for the steelhead in the Chilliwack valley than any other government funded project, and for that I personally thank you. I do hope that one day our Provincial leaders will understand that boots on the ground really is the best practice when trying to make decisions for these fish.
 

Yes! Almost certainly that aspect of the study design forced the result. Also best I recall it involved a total of 40 fish. How many were hatchery fish and was there an estimate of total spawners? The sample was just a small % of the total.

I think the change to a retention of 2 will happen and not because the Province thinks hatchery steelhead are "abominations". It will happen for the sake of "angler satisfaction", people whining they had to let one go so they could keep for fishing for the entire day.

[avid angler]

Thank you Dave, I am familiar with that study.
I often wondered if fisherman were asked to also kill those telemetry hatchery fish if there would have been so many left to find the spawning grounds? I honestly believe most hatchery fish would be bonked and out of the river system before finding the spawning grounds if not told to release encountered radio tagged fish, especially with the increased number of fisherman on the river compared to 2000, even though the graph showed earlier in this post would lead you to believe differently.

I also believe the study is somewhat presumptions is saying all non retained hatchery fish that were either recaptured or not found the grounds/spawned then moved out and on their way? while the study was and is a great base line for steelhead activities it is a shame the funding couldn't be found to carry on the study and improve on its science base to help better understand an issue that really does have one of the biggest impacts when making  "best practice decisions"

Dave I believe you and Buck have done more for the steelhead in the Chilliwack valley than any other government funded project, and for that I personally thank you. I do hope that one day our Provincial leaders will understand that boots on the ground really is the best practice when trying to make decisions for these fish.

 

More hatchery fish spawn then people think. I personally catch a dozenish clipped mending fish (almost always female) every season.

[Dave]

stsfisher, thanks for the kind words.
You and Ralph raise good points that need to be answered.  I wonder how much money it would cost to do this study again, 20 years later? 
Gotta think it would be money well spent considering how important this system is for steelhead.