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Author Topic: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?  (Read 3272 times)

GordJ

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2017, 08:54:00 AM »

Are we sure that Fishhawk isnt a Russian troll,trying to influence our election? I understand that is a thing now and this would be a great “minor league” for trolls to learn their craft before moving up to the big leagues.
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Steelhawk

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2017, 10:22:14 AM »

I am not a hunter so perhaps the hunters on this forum can address that. As my poster name suggests, my main interest is the well being of the wild steelhead as well as adequate stocking of Hatchery steelhead, hopefully restoring to levels in the past for key hatchery rivers. I also like Lee to take a strong stand against any DFO fishery opening that can decimate Thompson steelhead. Just can't let a federal institution like DFO ruin a precious legendary breed of steelhead. Perhaps you folks in fishing community like Chilliwack or Port Albernie should ask his campaign to hold meetings with him and drill him on your concern. But I was told the only way I can vote for him is to register as liberal voter before December 29, 2017. If he wins then his pledge will mean something to us. Just sitting at home or complain on internet forums will not help bring any change. My 2 cents.

Ya I am a Russian troll who joined this forum 15+ years ago and has made 1000+ posts before Lee is even a politician so he can win a election in the future. SMH. Rodney should be jumping up and down to know that his forum is so popular that even the Russians are using it for political gain. Haha. One thing for sure Lee is more popular here than Trump. LOL. I am not sure if I am allowed to ask him questions in tonight's meeting at Coquitlam. If I am, then I will tell him that he is being accused of using Russian trolls on FWR to help in win the party leadership and he is now being scrutinized on this forum. Hey, who knows, he may just come in here to answer your questions. Lol.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 11:05:45 AM by Steelhawk »
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bigblockfox

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2017, 10:59:29 AM »

steelhawk, if he is sincere he has my vote. i like you do not hunt. would love to see steelhead stocks rebound to former glory.
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RalphH

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2017, 11:19:15 AM »

Quote
adequate stocking of Hatchery steelhead, hopefully restoring to levels in the past for key hatchery rivers.

Steelhawk, are you aware that hatchery steelhead smolt survival (ie released fish that return as adults) is about 1/5th or less what is was a couple of decades ago? Are you aware that around 2 in 100 released smolts return as adults?
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G. K. Chesterton had the best advice on suffering fools gladly. He put emphasis on the gladly. When you’re with fools, laugh with them and at them simultaneously: “An obvious instance is that of ordinary and happy marriage. A man and a woman cannot live together without having against each other a kind of everlasting joke. Each has discovered that the other is a fool, but a great fool. This largeness, this grossness and gorgeousness of folly is the thing which we all find about those with whom we are in intimate contact; and it is the one enduring basis of affection, and even of respect.”

Steelhawk

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2017, 01:10:42 PM »

Ralph, I respect your opinion as you are obviously quite informed and intelligent about issues. I am not as informed as you are on the exact number of survival rate of hatchery steelhead smolt, and for that matter survival rate of all salmon smolts in recent years. I don't know if hatchery is the culprit. I am an IT guy, not a fishery or ocean scientist. Lol.

As a layman, I can only speculate that the ocean has to do with the smolt survival rate, wild of hatchery, and not the fish origin itself. The ocean has changed in recent years due to the 'blob'. Perhaps with increased predation and decreasing food source, there are less matured fish returning. The Americans are pouring in a lot more hatchery smolts than us and our smolts have to compete with dwindling food source under warmer ocean condition. So they produce more smolts to compensate for less survival rate. If we don't increase our smolt production or even reduce it more, then sure our return will be lower and lower.

I don't know if smolt survival rate is an exact science. But like the babyboomer generation born right after World War II, their parents have seen wars and deaths from wars, and deaths from deceases in war-torn places lacking health care. So they produced a lot more babies after the war ready for the survival game in the next war. Sure enough a lot more of us made it to old age then before because the 'ocean' of our life has been favourable since the war. It may be a stupid strategy but you and I or our parents exist today because our parents or grandparents didn't stop after 2 or 3 kids. They went 4 or more. Like I said, it is not an exact science out there. If it were, then we wouldn't have the best sockeye run in 100 years the year after the disastrous return prompting a federal judiciary inquiry on the crash. Nothing changed much on land and what humans were doing within a year or two. But the ocean has done something mysterious for that year of bounty of sockeye run. I am no expert on fishery things as you do, Ralph. But can one be so assertive about the cause and effect of everything affecting salmon & steelhead survival, especially laymen like us?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 01:13:54 PM by Steelhawk »
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RalphH

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2017, 10:10:31 PM »

It is not an opinion, it is a fact.

If you think you are not as informed as me that should tell you something.

Get informed before forming an opinion.
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G. K. Chesterton had the best advice on suffering fools gladly. He put emphasis on the gladly. When you’re with fools, laugh with them and at them simultaneously: “An obvious instance is that of ordinary and happy marriage. A man and a woman cannot live together without having against each other a kind of everlasting joke. Each has discovered that the other is a fool, but a great fool. This largeness, this grossness and gorgeousness of folly is the thing which we all find about those with whom we are in intimate contact; and it is the one enduring basis of affection, and even of respect.”

Steelhawk

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2017, 10:35:54 PM »

LOL. I am not contending that those numbers are an opinion. Perhaps you can quote the source. But even if you know about that as fact, which I am not challenging, where is the proof that such decrease in survival rate is because these steelhead are from hatchery origin. The argument is, does that decreased number come as a result of hatcheries? I have presented my reasoning that there is no such proof. Perhaps you can quote some scientific papers or research that prove without doubt that hatcheries are the culprit of steelhead decline. If that is the case, I like to know why the Gold and other wild rivers are suffering the same general decline.

Anyhow this thread is not about steelhead knowledge superiority. It is about a liberal candidate who seems friendly to our community who may listen to our community if elected as leader of the opposition and perhaps as a premier in the future. Let's just don't waste people's time in justifying personal merits. Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 11:48:12 PM by Steelhawk »
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bigsnag

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2017, 10:40:02 PM »

....... are you aware that hatchery steelhead smolt survival (ie released fish that return as adults) is about 1/5th or less what is was a couple of decades ago? Are you aware that around 2 in 100 released smolts return as adults?
You have to be specific Ralph, our hatcheries are not run the same way as the Americans, south Washington streams in particular. 
btw, what is the survival rate of wild SUMMER steelhead smolts returning as adults?
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bigsnag

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2017, 10:59:12 PM »


Like other rivers that run directly into the Pacific, many Olympic Peninsula rivers have fared better but overall Washington and Oregon has seen pretty dramatic declines, the same as in Southern BC

Most who fish down south are after springers/summers. Dramatic declines?  Yes.  What do we have within a couple of hours drive from the LML?
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Steelhawk

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2017, 11:45:17 PM »

As I said before I was about to attend a campaign stop of Michael Lee and tried to ask him to clarify his open letter and his desire to fight for endanger steelhead like the Thompson.

It was too bad the weather was harsh with rain and snow. But Michael Lee showed up as promised to a small gathering of people who braved the elements to hear him and his policies. While he shook my hand, I told him about FWR and this thread about him and his open letter. Apparently he was aware of such thread as some of his people have told him. He spoke extensively on his policies and he addressed his open letter with a sincere desire to work with the fishing, hunting and shooting-sport communities. I can sense his sincerity as he recognizes the important of our natural resources and yet the need for better management to benefit also the various user groups.

In the question and answer period, I drilled him on fishery issues and the need for proper funding and to protect the Thompson steelhead from the nets on the Fraser. He listened and answered me with assurances that lead me trustimg in his sincerity. You can bad mouth him or work with him at this grass root level. I choose the latter. It is better to get the attention of an aspiring future leader of the province at the grass root level. You will more likely get his attention at this stage and hopefully he will remember his campaign promise.

Lee, showing his sincerity to include our community, specifically instructs his assistance to take down my email and they also give me the email of their team member who will be responsible for formulating policies on things he mentions in the open letter. I asked him if he is willing to meet with people in fishing communities like Chilliwack and the answer is YES!!!

So if those of you in Chilliwack or another fishing town such as Port Albernie wish to meet up with him to express your concern on fishery and steelhead, you can contact me at steelhawk1@gmail.com and I will try to connect you folks to his campaign team.

If none of you interested, then perhaps I will try Fred of Fred's tackle. I have heard Lee is leading in some poll and is a serious contender. So hopefully the fishing community can jump on the band wagon at this golden time. I have done my best as an outsider as I am a busy IT guy, not in politics nor in fishing industry. I did my best and hopefully Rodney, Chris, Fred or some others can organize something out there in the Wack.

Remember if you want to support Michael Lee but not currently a liberal party member, you need to register first to be a member before Dec 29, 2017 before you can vote for the leader in February, 2018. If you wish to do so, try to go to his web site to study his policies, then register if you so incline. 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 11:56:09 PM by Steelhawk »
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RalphH

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2017, 07:41:14 AM »

Steelhawk, you're (both) putting words in my mouth and using a 'stawman' argument. Both of you don't disagree with the numbers & then ask for 'proof'. As I stated above, if you look at the East Coast of the Island, there no longer is a hatchery program so the hatchery smolt survival question is moot. Overall hatchery programs are no longer cost effective. They are a waste of money and harm wild fish production to boot. If you aren't informed about the numbers how can you form a useful opinion about what needs to be done?

************************
BTW in average to good years the hatchery return to V/C is in the range of 2,000 fish. Here's a link to smolt releases over the last 10 years

http://www.gofishbc.com/Stocked-Fish/Summary-Report.aspx?region=LOWER%20MAINLAND&waterbody=VEDDER%20-%20CHILLIWACK%20R&species_static=Steelhead&start=12/20/2007&end=12/20/2017

the average is around 120,000. Do the math.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 09:49:11 AM by RalphH »
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G. K. Chesterton had the best advice on suffering fools gladly. He put emphasis on the gladly. When you’re with fools, laugh with them and at them simultaneously: “An obvious instance is that of ordinary and happy marriage. A man and a woman cannot live together without having against each other a kind of everlasting joke. Each has discovered that the other is a fool, but a great fool. This largeness, this grossness and gorgeousness of folly is the thing which we all find about those with whom we are in intimate contact; and it is the one enduring basis of affection, and even of respect.”

wildmanyeah

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2017, 10:23:53 AM »

RalphH,

I did the math for Kanaka creek bassed on what Ross Davies told me about returns and how many smolts are released.

Kanaka's has like a 5-6% return rate and provides Coqutlam and Burnaby with coho eggs. Also Kanaka for chum have a larger then AVG size then most of the Fraser river tribbs. Ross thinks its because of the irregular water flow, Chum can be forced to wait for weeks for the water to rise.

Some interesting facts about the system are in 1950's pinks were extirpated from the system. in 1980's they started to return and in 2015 it saw its largest return with over a 100 returning.

Ocean survival tho has been proven to be at a 2% or less rate. Yet some systems continue to defile this. I am not a huge hatchery advocate, I understand why people are now taking the approach with salmon to just leave them alone.  However i think there is a place for hatcheries. Have a look at all the education they provide. Have a look at the year end presentation 2 mins in by Ross. http://media.mapleridge.ca/Mediasite/Play/89767f9b7c9644948ecdc0e4e02db46b1d
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halcyonguitars

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2017, 11:32:48 AM »

For myself, I don't think hunting and fishing are important enough overall to be the platform I'd base my vote on. Furthermore, low level politicians can be as sincere as they like, and even really mean it at the time when they make their promises, but still must bow down to the overall strategy of the party. And if I were to look back on the liberal history, I wouldn't put much faith in their approach to resource management.
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Steelhawk

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2017, 11:40:29 AM »

Annual steelhead return number seems to be a lot higher than the 2,000 according to some reports. I have heard through out the years people saying 4,000 to 6,000. But in this article in 2011 by Dave Vedder, a well known steelheader who author steelhead books, he quoted a much higher number of annual angling catches (not return only) of 14,000, and later in describing the January/February steelhead fishing, he quoted a range of 10,000 to 20,000 fish return.

http://www.sportfishingbc.com/post.php?The-VedderRiver---B.C.-s-Crown-Jewel-36

And in this 1985 creel survey and 1984/85 questionaire, on table 8 of page 12, it quoted a much larger number of catches by anglers, and these were catch number so the total return number should be even higher (because we simply can't catch every returning steelie, lol).

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/fisheriesrpts/FTC73.pdf

I am sure most of those steelheaders actively fishing in the last 20+ years agree that the fishing is getting harder by the year compared to prior glory years. If the ocean survival is getting harder, then we will see less fish coming back. Stocking more smolts is one way to solve that. We have seen how more stocking in the EXPO years have created phenomenal fishing.

If the hatchery enhancement is removed, there will be less fishers interested going out. Yes, the purist will love that. They don't have crowd around them. But less eyes on the rivers can also mean more poaching for wild fish, and less people fishing will mean less concern for the welfare of steelhead stocks and you won't find enough support when there is critical need to help save the Thompson steelhead.

So I like Michael Lee's approach, to find a balance between natural resources and user groups, not just the purists, but the needs of average fishing folks. He as the future opposition leader or premier will be willing to listen to our concern. Politicians are not saints. You support him at the grass root level, he/she will be more likely to listen to you later when elected. Fishing groups should look at his fishing friendly policies and decide if he is someone you can support at the grass root level.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 11:42:29 AM by Steelhawk »
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RalphH

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Re: fishing/hunting friendly future premier?
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2017, 05:05:29 PM »

LOL. Somewhere above I referred to the V-C hatchery program as a success though most are failures.

Snorkel surveys don't happen that often but here is a paper on one:

http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat/documents/r2210/chilliwack_adult_2001_1106349746675_e5c96f8eb41e4f4b8c1eb5150a80e5f7.pdf

They counted 1200

Most estimates made by the Branch I have seen put the total return at around 4,000 fish on average though the last few years are likely lower as we haven't seen good returns. That would include both wild and hatchery which they put at a 50/50 split hence the estimate of 2,000 hatchery fish. Most hatchery fish return earlier than wild fish and are harvested by anglers.

Compare to this 1980s estimate that put the river rearing capacity at about 11,000 wild fish. While the river may not be as productive as then clearly it is not the river environment that limits steelhead numbers.

http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/eirs/finishDownloadDocument.do;jsessionid=yM5sh7BpPKSDx6NSpp1td9GLNHB9L1PGlxJz1V5kPM0t3yvwTsQR!-1181731771?subdocumentId=6981

He also estimates that hatchery returns of 5,000 should be expected from 120,000 smolts based on the much higher smolt survival rates of that time. If look at some past posts you'll find some hatchery staff put survival at 2.5% several years ago.

Catch statistics include multiple captures and some tagged fish studies indicated all wild fish were caught at least once and some 4 or more times. Catch statistics don't indicate population and are actually reduced considerably from what anglers report since angler reports are usually exaggerated as are angler estimates of fish populations.

Back in the 90s Branch staff looked at snorkel survey results and basically concluded that steelhead number in many streams were were a fraction (perhaps as low as 10 to 20%) of previous estimates.

In the last 40 years or so I have heard of at least 2 years where Kanaka had no steelhead return for at least one year in a cycle. I doubt there would be many in there (maybe a handful most years) if not for the hatchery program. Certainly true for the Stave as well. The Georgia Basin Alliance published a survey of dozen of stream many years ago that for sometime was available on the web and it was surprising how many streams were estimated to have a wild population of 50 or less. Few had more than one to 200 hundred. The V-C is a rare apple.

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G. K. Chesterton had the best advice on suffering fools gladly. He put emphasis on the gladly. When you’re with fools, laugh with them and at them simultaneously: “An obvious instance is that of ordinary and happy marriage. A man and a woman cannot live together without having against each other a kind of everlasting joke. Each has discovered that the other is a fool, but a great fool. This largeness, this grossness and gorgeousness of folly is the thing which we all find about those with whom we are in intimate contact; and it is the one enduring basis of affection, and even of respect.”