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[dennisK]

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[Gooey]

Its funny you didnt debate a single point I made Dennis. 

Fact is DFO already tried a race based fishery which was punted out as being unconstitutional by the supreme court of canada. 

Another fact you fail to address is the idea of a "Food Fishery" vs what is actually going on right now.  Do FN really need 500,000+++ sockeye when there is plenty of pinks, chum, springs, and coho?

I guess the ATP doesnt really help your postion either, so I guess we'll ignore that too.

[dennisK]

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[Gooey]

So Dennis, should FN get ALL THE FISH???

Thats what it has amounted too so far this year...not what they need for sustanance...they have actually taken a s**t load more than that.

ATF is supposed to buy out whitey commercial liscences because "FN are under represented in BC commercial fishing industry"....What has the FN exposure been on the fraser this year?? 100% and goose eggs for sporties and the commercial guys....does that sound fair - considering their food needs have been met.


"Do FN really need 500,000 fish? Sure, why not."  So dennis, should I harvest so much salmon that it freezer burns in the bottom of my deep freeze? ..."Sure why not"....lets face it, most of these FN fishers are a greedy as any corporation or industry.

So as healthcare cost increase (personal), education cost increase, housing cost increase etc, its not enuff that the Canada doles out 8 BILLION a year to Indian affairs to provide all sorts of free s**t to of FN people...now you are saying they deserve all the fish too?!?

[rerigger]

actually dennis why don;t we go there ??
where would the aboriginals be if the british, french,followed by all us other people be
if we didn't come
maybe mexico  bet your glad you don't live there   eh !!!

maybe the russians would have followed mr.bering
how would being part of the USSR SUIT YOU

ANSWER AT WILL

[Steelhawk]

Gooey is right on the point.  FN has been given the most consideration from our government, billions and billions of programs & aids, free taxes & freebies all over.  I wish ordinary struggling Canadian families have these kinds of freebies.  FN have been well cared for by our kinder & gentler nation.  We have all known what bad things had been committed by victorious conquerors in those by-gone days of wars & colonizations.  Comparatively, Canada has been very civil.   'White guilt' should not justify the rampant fish poaching in the Fraser.  Conservation is top priority of DFO, so it should enforce the law regardless of the 'race' or ethnic origin of the offenders.  Giving all the fish to one race in an effort to appease them is wrong. Turning a blind eye to the reckless fishing illegalities (illegal netting & sales of fish) is not fish conservation.  It is politics.  FN are entitled to food & ceremonial fisheries, not raping fish resources for greed. Cheer to Gooey & Nikko.

[dennisK]

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[Gooey]

Oh come on Dennis, you didnt even read my post.  Conservation is DFO's main priority so the percentage of the total run which Fn harvestes is not an important number.

The important number is what percentage of the ESCAPEMENT that dfo allocated for harvesting...what percentage did they get.

Lets do the math properly this time:
FN allocated catch (lets be conserative and no poaching figures: 400,000
Commercail:  ZERO//NUTHING/NADA/ZILCH/ZIP/etc:                 (0)
Sporties: one 8 day opeing (last year we took 50K in 2w so....)    50,000 (very aggressive estimate)

So by my math FN took  85.5% of the run (and thats based on a very comservative number for FN and a very high number for sport).  If what we hear is correct and one counted fish in the FN allotments equals 2 uncounted/poached fish then they may have taken more like 1.5 million fish (97% of the harvested Fraser socs).

Mean while they throw dead pinks back in the river (probably not enuff COMERCIAL value to them) and dump a truck load of rotting sockeye in a ditch.  I hate when I freezer burn one fillet...let alone a truck load.

So tell me Dennis, is this how Canada's FN forefathers did it?  Do you think their ancestors would be proud right now?  More importantly, is this sustainable?

[mojoman]

seems Dennis is just trying to stir the pot folks....don't bite anymore...just remember his stance...I certainly will.....just a thought....my "ancestors" were conquerers....crusaders and the like....maybe I should take up my sword and shield and continue my "inherent ancestorial" rights??....bunch of crap u r offloading Dennis... IMHO.....go fishing.....go get beer....but just GO!!!!!


mojo...your milage may vary....))

[dennisK]

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[Nikko]

mojo and you other newbies - "If you believe anyone who disagrees with you actually has some master plan about being anti-newbie...well then you have some unresolved issues. I can't help you with those."

dennisK:

I never said you had a master plan to attack newbies. I said you smelled a newbie and came out on the offensive, obviously looking to pick a fight. Your opinions were detailed well enough that I hazard to say you've had this discussion (or one like it) on this forum before and that the Sr. members knew well enough to let them go. I didn't...and I subsequently set the table for you...comeplete with silver and napkins.

I don't have a problem doing this; it's all good debate and even if I don't agree with you or your principles, and even if you've painted me with a mis-coloured brush, I still enjoy reading what you took the time to type. And contrary to what you may think, I actually mulled over your opinions and justifications of STATUS and the priveledges associated to it before I tossed them..

I may be a newbie on this forum, but not to forum life in general. And you acted like a trap-door spide towards my original post. That's not a bad thing, but it's a reality and defines your introduction to me. Now I know, and now I'll be a bit more careful about baiting you. Which could lead to even more animation one day

Unresloved issues? That's the second time you aimed that towards me and terms like that are gettng a little close to being insulting. Let's not go there OK? It won't do anyone any good. Let's keep this aimed at the issues that divide us in hopes of finsing a common glue.

Nikko

[mojoman]

ps

mojo and you other newbies - "If you believe anyone who disagrees with you actually has some master plan about being anti-newbie...well then you have some unresolved issues. I can't help you with those."

newbie??....too what...this forum maybe....but I'd b checkin' up on your info b4 u go pasting folks with silly names etc....oh....come visit the South Oakanagan....I'll take ya out fishin'...maybe u will find out who the newbie really is!!!!!!...besides....always lookin' for another fishin' buddy...)))


mojo


now lets all play nice

[BwiBwi]

FN came to this land (what is called Canada) maybe thousands of years ago(before the nation was formed).  They are believed to be same ancestry as Mongolians. They are in effect emmigrants. (maybe people who doesn't like to live in a society setting).
When Columbus 'discovered' the 'new world' people start to move to this newly discovered world. They are ineffect same status as FN.

Who gave the so called rights to FN when they first arrived?
And who gave the first westerner the so called right when they first arrived?

One person arriving before another does not mean they have more rights.
In a country, a governed society, equality is a must. No one should be more equal then others.

[Gooey]

Until everyone is treated as equals, this PLANET wil be the way it is...look at isreal/palistine, alll the factions in Iraq, etc.  We will never get to that "star trek" type of global comunity if we keep on differentiating ourselves from eachother and EXPECTING different treatment.  Bit of a silly example but it kinda makes sense.

PS Dennis I dont know what you are missing.  DFO top 2 priorities are: Conservation followed by FN food fisheries.  Our courts have mandated that we can't stop FN from fishing unless conservation issues exsist.

very simplistic model:  DFO looks at a returning run and says we need (for successful propogation of that run) 100,000 fish here, 75,000 there.  They then forecast the run (lets say 300,000) and use various models to estimate the run as it comes in.  Lets assume from test fisheries they determine there are 200,000 returning, they would then allocate 25,000 fish out to the various user groups with priority being on FN....Does that example make sense?

Do you think FN should get 100% of the surplus fish (thats the fraser right now)? Are you saying FN should be able to access what ever they like of the 6+ million fish?  Do you think they should be able to fish despite any DFO conservation mandates or environmental factors?  What ids your position?

You say they are only taking 9% (of 6+ mil)...commercial is still getting ZERO PERCENT of what ever number you care to use.  And sporties, a very tiny portion.

As Canadians, our main concern is there is no  equity - are we wrong for wanting equity!