Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: chris gadsden on August 02, 2005, 05:32:47 PM
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I just got word that the Cheam Band has filed an injunction in Victoria to prevent sports angling on the Fraser River from Dewdney Slough to Herrling Island.
I have not seen the notice yet but will get my hands on it tonight for more details. It is on hard copy and not on e mail.
Am not sure this injunction will be just when FN are fishing or not.
The hearing was thought to go tomorrow but a call was made to the court registry at the Victoria courthouse and it may be heard on Friuday. It seems the Cheam lawyer wants to know how it went on the river last weekend during the 12 hour drift netting and 48 hour set net.
Is this the beginning of the end for us? If not it is certainly the thin edge of the wedge.
I have been in contact with the president of the SDA and we will be represented in some way at this injunction hearing. Also he has given the ok to notify the press so feel free to spread the word, what have we got to lose. It certainly could be a sad day not only for us but for the fish as well that will also suffer greatly. Once again FOC should be questioned that the law presently states these fish are supposed to be for food and ceremonial use only. How many fish does someone need to satisy this?
Time to tighten this up before more opportunity is given I would say.
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When the injunction proposal was first brought up at the last FN/rec fishers dialogue meeting, they mentioned the closure proposed would only be three bars that are commonly used by recreational anglers, and that sportfishing closures would only take place during FN openings.
I can see a compromise developed if it comes down to an alternating opening/closure days between the two groups at certain bars, but requesting (if that is what's included in this injunction) to have the all areas between the two points completely closed to sportfishing is outrageous.
I guess we'll have to wait and find out more info before making the appropriate responses. In the meantime, make others aware of what is about to take place.
I hope those who enjoy the sturgeon fishing has also read the Fraser River White Sturgeon Conservation Plan that I posted, unless no one really wants to fish next year.
This is also very disappointing as it will probably end the future dialogues with FN. We have another scheduled meeting with the Cheam and other bands on August 9th. I am disappointed that they could not wait until then to discuss over this issue face to face before taking such actions as we requested at the last meeting.
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While Sturgeon fishing on Sunday and the FN drift net opening was taking place there was 2 seals around the nets and we heard throughout the 2 hours, several gunshots go off that were shot towards the seals. So if they have the ability to be carrying live ammunition on their boats right now, whats going to hold them back to not shoot at recreational anglers when this hopefully doesnt go through?
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Why are you surprised?
Who will fight this in the courts???
Do you think that DFO or the Province will??
If it works, there will be more to come.
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:o :o :o
Why is anyone surprised? Last year was just the ripple testing the waters ... if you didn't see this coming ::) ::).
Good to see what meetings and dialog does eh Rod.
I'd like to know what comments all the upper Fraser bands have on this.
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If you care about fishing on the Fraser, than I would reccomend that you send MONEY to the SDA or the Survival Coalition.
They appear to be prepared to go to court on YOUR behalf and could use your help with money!
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I can't see a valid reason for closing down the river for us when the natives are netting. From my experience everyone stops fishing while a drift net passes by. We are not affecting their so called fishing rather they are affecting ours. Unless of course they want to load up the river with a whole slew of drift nets and take everything. If we wanna keep fishing eventhough we probably won't catch anything cause most of the fish will end up in the nets we should be allowed to. This proposal sounds 'fishy'to me.
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perhaps a more activist style political representation needs to take place. I guess our voices are lost unless we maybe get all the sporties motivated to show up at the provincial buildings in victoria and hold a major protest on the lawns of our ever loved (not) premier's big castle of fun.
do we need to see modern day cowboys and indians in our society?? because this kind of action by the Cheams will sure rile a TONNE of folks.
It's almost as if the government and DFO "want" the conflict between the user groups to exist. They sure as hell aren't acting to pull the fuel out of the fire now are they.
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While Sturgeon fishing on Sunday and the FN drift net opening was taking place there was 2 seals around the nets and we heard throughout the 2 hours, several gunshots go off that were shot towards the seals. So if they have the ability to be carrying live ammunition on their boats right now, whats going to hold them back to not shoot at recreational anglers when this hopefully doesnt go through?
[/u] Hopefully the law?
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This could very much be posturing...its a negotiating ploy. Start high, end somewhere in the middle - thats my guess.
We need to wait and see how the courts react, most importantly the sports sector needs someone to represent their interests otherwise they will not be considered. Lets all try and do whay we can to support these organizations (SDA, survival colition etc.), be it money, signatures, whatever.
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start of a new civil war!! ::)
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This could very much be posturing...its a negotiating ploy. Start high, end somewhere in the middle - thats my guess.
100% correct-it's all politics.
start of a new civil war!! ::)
Stop talking out of your a**!
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Not that I am suggesting anything, but unfortunately for the Cheam, if they do get this injunction, they should be prepared to live with the full consequences. Being of sane state of mind, I can speak for myself in that I wll be a law abiding citizen, on the other hand, I can't speak for the masses of others out there who have a loose screw or two. It would be unfortunate if certain events were to unfold of a serious nature if this injunction does occur.
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The next thing they will ask for is a limited season of Coho fishing for us so that they can net all of them coming into the Vedder/Fraser mouth!!!!!!
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It's only to get worse. >:(
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Just finished the first six pages of the document, someone really knows how to write an argument essay.
25. If the Cheam fishermen are unable to satisfy their food fishing needs in the course of the openings permitted by DFO, there will be Cheam members, including elderly people and children, who will suffer hardship this year, as the sockeye food fishery is essential to the substance of many Cheam famiies.
>:(
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The next 7 are o9n the way Rodney, needed a break to talk to Maxine. Here they come. :o
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Already?! I was just taking a break on fishbc. :-[
If readers are interested in reading, I might take the time to type out the major portions. Chris is being lazy, he's scanning every single page instead of typing them out for me. ;D
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Already?! I was just taking a break on fishbc. :-[
If readers are interested in reading, I might take the time to type out the major portions. Chris is being lazy, he's scanning every single page instead of typing them out for me. ;D
But my day started at 4 am and I caught no fish so crabby.
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I'm crabbier, I had to supervise kids while they fish for chubs so they didn't hook their own eyes. ;D
Here goes. I've typed out the demands in the injunction as they are the most important ones.
The aboriginal food fisheries are essential to the physical sustenance of the members of Cheam and cannot be adequately compensated for by an award of damages. The only appropriate relief for these infringements of Cheam's Aboriginal rights and title is injunctive relief preventing and prohibiting this interference.
The Plaintiff claims as follows:
- An injunction against John Doe and Jane Doe prohibiting them from blocking, obstructing or impeding the efforts of any Cheam fisherman from carrying out an Aboriginal food fishery;
- An injunction against John Doe and Jane Doe prohibiting them from carrying out the 2005 Sports Fishery in the channels specified in Schedule "B" to this statement of Claim during openings of the Aboriginal Fishery authorized by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans;
- An injunction against John Doe and Jane Doe from directly or indirectly interfering with the Cheam Aboroginal food fishery;
- An injunction against John Doe and Jane Doe prohibiting them from carrying out the 2005 Sports Fishery in the Pilalt Title Area without the permission or consent of Cheam;
Schedule "B" is a map and I can't see too clearly the channels on the map due to scan quality but they are mostly around just upstream of Agassiz to Herrling Island. Pilalt Title Area roughly covers the stretch of Fraser from the mouth of Harrison to Herrling.
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It says FOOD FISHERY, not fishery.
Do we know the amount of fish they are allowed for this?
Second is the fact that if they get this through the court, think of the other bands that will be in court to ensure they get the same.
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It says FOOD FISHERY, not fishery.
Do we know the amount of fish they are allowed for this?
Interesting question indeed ! Assuming a person eats one salmon a day for a whole year, that's 365 fish per person.
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Already?! I was just taking a break on fishbc. :-[
If readers are interested in reading, I might take the time to type out the major portions. Chris is being lazy, he's scanning every single page instead of typing them out for me. ;D
OCR. OCR!
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The aboriginal food fisheries are essential to the physical sustenance of the members of Cheam and cannot be adequately compensated for by an award of damages. The only appropriate relief for these infringements of Cheam's Aboriginal rights and title is injunctive relief preventing and prohibiting this interference.
The Plaintiff claims as follows:
- An injunction against John Doe and Jane Doe prohibiting them from blocking, obstructing or impeding the efforts of any Cheam fisherman from carrying out an Aboriginal food fishery;
- An injunction against John Doe and Jane Doe prohibiting them from carrying out the 2005 Sports Fishery in the channels specified in Schedule "B" to this statement of Claim during openings of the Aboriginal Fishery authorized by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans;
- An injunction against John Doe and Jane Doe from directly or indirectly interfering with the Cheam Aboroginal food fishery;
- An injunction against John Doe and Jane Doe prohibiting them from carrying out the 2005 Sports Fishery in the Pilalt Title Area without the permission or consent of Cheam;
OK...from a "Glass is half full" perspective:
1) Loosely translates to don't get in the way of our nets, or the boats
2) Don't fish WHERE we fish, WHEN we fish there.
3) Don't interfere with our fishery (blockade concenrns?)
4) Don't fish the area we want to claim as our land, without our permission
Seems to me that they're not saying DON'T fish anywhere in the Fraser EVER. More of a "Stay out of our way paleface" - Not that this attitude is going to win them many friends :(
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So, time for a counter suit?
Just reverse the names?
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I wonder, since the loss to an individual fisherman would be less than 5K, if somehow we could all start small claims actions against them?
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ROD OR DRAGONSPEED : can you fax me what info you have on this injunction??? or is there a link to it online ??
fax me at 604 273 5980
thx guys
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ROD OR DRAGONSPEED : can you fax me what info you have on this injunction??? or is there a link to it online ??
fax me at 604 273 5980
thx guys
I will have an electronic copy soon.
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ROD OR DRAGONSPEED : can you fax me what info you have on this injunction??? or is there a link to it online ??
fax me at 604 273 5980
thx guys
Have sent it please confirm you have it. Anyone else wishs it PM me.
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i've been out of the office for a few hours, i don't see it on the fax desk.... ?
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I just got home and inbox is flooded with emails regarding this. I'll C&P some for now as I have to head out for work in a minute again.
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Seabird band has been issued a ceremonial licence for drift nets and set nets to catch up to 70 sox.
Set Nets
1. 18:00 hours,Wednesday, August 3, 2005 to 18:00 hours, Thursday, August 4, 2005.
Drift Nets
1. 08:00 hours, Thursday, August 4, 2005 to 20:00 hours, Thursday, August 4, 2005.
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(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/jamie.jpg)
Posted as requested by CG. His post to follow.
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(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/jamie.jpg)
Posted as requested by CG. His post to follow.
Thanks Rodney. Was out for a short trip today as Gordon wanted me to be with Jamie my first grandson who just turned 2. 2:40 wanted me to be there when Jamie caught his first fish.
It just seemed like yesterday that Gord was out witjh me doing the same thing. ;D
The photo is him landing a northern pike minnow that of course are a predator to the endangered Cultus Lake sockeye. With the injuction filed yesterday by the Cheam band to prevent sports anglers onto parts of the Fraser River some wonder if they will become endangered as well.
Things are certainly not rolling, rolling, rolling right along tonight. :( :( :(
Will young fishers like Jamie not be able to access freely the Fraser River like his dad has for over 20 years and his grandfather for 35. A sorry thought as I have to admit tears flow freely as I type this. :'( :(
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i've been out of the office for a few hours, i don't see it on the fax desk.... ?
e mailed it but had wrong address sent again.
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thanks for emailing that to me Chris.
Are these Cheams out of thier minds????
This is just total nonsense and if this is the way we are going to be dealt with by these people, they can go to hell as far as I am concerned.
Regardless of the outcome of this legal case, I refuse to comply with one shred of what they are asking for. If our courts pass this and the Cheam win, I will not recognize it as law.
saying this I fully realize that I may be prosecuted by our courts.
I accept those consequences
My message to the Cheam is you don't like canadian laws for canadian people, go find a new country to live in or better yet go back to living 100% the way your ancestors did. see where that gets ya all.
But being a Canadian Citizen and a member of the Metis Nation I will not stand for the ideology behind the Sto' Lo and Cheam's actions and demands. Racism, plain and simple, it's not about the river or the fish, it's control.
So to Chief Douglas and his merry band of Cheams, I'm thumbin my nose at you pal and we'll see you on the river.
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Some recommendations to those who are concerned
The schedule of upcoming FN openings is 18:00 Thursday, August 4 to 18:00 Saturday August 6 for set nets and 08:00 to 20:00 Saturday August 6 for Drift nets. They'll be discussing with DFO again on Friday morning to see if an extension to this weekend's fishery is possible after reviewing information from PSC.
While tension is high, and most do not agree what has taken place in the last few days, it is important to remember that we should all be civil. This is not the time for reaction that is negative. We do not want to see confrontations out there, it would only degenerate the situation further. Report all fisheries violations to the ORR line.
If you see conflicts, report to the nearest RCMP office. Leave the enforcement to DFO and RCMP, but they can certainly use our eyes and ears to be more efficient.
What can you do?
Voicing your thoughts to those who can make a difference is a start. Letter writing to the major players in the political field maybe helpful eventually.
Join the Fraser Valley Salmon Society to have your voice represented. The Sportfishing Defense Alliance's first annual fundraiser will be held this Nov. 18th in Chilliwack.
Keep in mind this is an issue between the recreational anglers and the Cheam First Nation. Other FNs are not necessarily happy with what has taken place. I and hopefully (well, I don't want to be there alone! ;D ) the other reps of SFAC will attend the next scheduled meeting on August 9th with FNs.
References
Office of the Prime Minister
80 Wellington Street
Ottawa K1A 0A2
pm@pm.gc.ca
Honourable Geoff Regan
House of Commons
Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Parliament Buildings, Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6
Canada
Min@dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Jim Wild, Lower Fraser Area Director
Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Area Director's Office
100 Annacis Parkway, Unit 3
Delta, British Columbia
Canada V3M 6A2
Observe, record and report: 1-800-465-4336
Chilliwack RCMP: 604-792-4611
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in my post I do not make my comments to suggest violence of any kind. I agree 100% with Rodney about keeping things civil out there. I will not however respect any change to my access to what I have consider crown land or public land all my life. This will include fishing for bullheads ( or salmon :D ) off the beach regardless of who's drifting by net fishing.
call it peacefull protest, if DFO arrests me, or if the FN's want to get violent, I will take the matter to task legally. I am prepared to make sacrifices to protect my access to "My Canada".
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One thing you can do is provide dollars for the SDA to fight this.
Rodney, could you put the address for them up here as I do not have it.
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One thing you can do is provide dollars for the SDA to fight this.
Rodney, could you put the address for them up here as I do not have it.
Rodney if you do not have it please phone Gwyn
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You say....
"It says FOOD FISHERY, not fishery.
Do we know the amount of fish they are allowed for this?"
Correct me if I am wrong...but..why the hell is only sockeye a food fish??
Is this a year where 20 million pinks return to the system?
They want fish..then damn it...eat pinks too...I can't afford a fricking steak 3X's a day! I eat hot dogs alot.
FN fellers need to add more to the good ol' diet eh?
BOB
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Hey Guys
If by some god forsaken chance that the government caves again I have an idea for a very peacfull protest.
Their injunction is to prohibit us from fishing, it doesn't say we can't all get our boats and head to these prime locations and just drop anchor and have a 100 boat picnic. Just pass the word to all the other web sites and we could get more boats on the river than the FN have ever seen before, and it's all nice and legal.
Centerpin 8)
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There you go !!! ;) Nothing wrong with a picnic.
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there's few things i want to know
1) what is the population of the individual bands who are represented by this injunction, man, women, child..
2) what is the weight of a standard adult meal size portion of fish. (I know I'm stuffed after eating a 1/4 of an average sized, say 6lbs sockeye)
3) according to health canada, what is the recommended frequency of a salmon dinner in a regular healthy balanced diet and what is the recommended portion size.
4) with ceremony and food fisheries only, how many total "fish pounds" of salmon or number of combined species of salmon does DFO allow the Sto' Lo nation and when divided by man, women, child, how many fish per person, per year does this come out to.
5) if the bands represented in this injunction do not have enough other food staples such as vegetables, pork, chicken, beef ect ect, are they going to seek "harvesting" rights from farms located in the chilliwack/sardis/agassiz areas that were Sto' Lo territory before the reserves were formed? ( I know that question is a little silly but so is this injunction)
6) how much money per year does the Sto' Lo/ Cheam contribute to salmon enhancement
7) how much money do the bands represented by this injunction receive annually for "fishery" and harvest related gear, clothing and equipment.
i'm gonna see if i can research these questions but if anyone has any facts.....
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Send an e-mail to your MLA/MP and ask them if they are going to defend your rights on this in court!
They are glad to take your taxes, how about defending you on this?
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Well I just e-mailed Geoff Regan to voice my concerns and a few fellings on this matter I suggest evrybody does the same. Just flood his in box. Maybe that way they will see that we are for real
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One excellent point was made...why not target humpies too. The simple answer: becuase they are worth a fraction of the price of a sockeye (whole pink in save on: $5.00, whole soc: $35).
The courts need to be made aware that really what they are talking about when they say people relie on the sockeye...they mean the cheam relie on the $$'s from the ILLICT sale of sockeye caught under the guise of cerimonial and food fish!
BTW...how much do they actually need. one point they ask for:
"An injunction against John Doe and Jane Doe prohibiting them from carrying out the 2005 Sports Fishery in the channels specified in Schedule "B" to this statement of Claim during openings of the Aboriginal Fishery authorized by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans"
there are plenty of other bars we can fish outside of the requested area, I thinkity makes sense to minimise a sport presence during the FN openings. Frig, let them fish hard for a week or 2, watch every frigging boat and net...count every fish they catch, then get them the F*** outta the water once their quota is filled.
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Gooey, sounds good, however if they get this one watch them and others go to court for more.
This can/ could be the thin edge of the wedge!
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:D good point black dog give them an inch and they want a mile. ;D but i think the rec anglers hands are tied at this time as the fns have more rights to fish for ceremonial purposes than we do. we just have to wait and watch the outcome of all this . :'( :'(
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I think its time the smoke screen known as "cerimonial and food purposes" gets blown away and the truth comes out...
BTW my dad was reading an article in either the sun or globe and apparrently the cheam have 300 members! I wonder how many fish they figure they need for "sustinance"?!?!
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yep and how many get sold to the public illegally ??? ???
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I have heard several discussions on CKNW with Cheam leaders about what the Cheams want and think. Even though its is illegal for the Cheam to sell fish that they catch for "Food and Cerimonial purposes" the Cheam actually feel that because their people can't survive on a diet of Fish alone they are justified in the selling or trading of surplus "food" salmon in order to purchase other food products. Rather convoluted thought pattern but whatever helps them sleep at night. I have fished just down river from where their big shelter is just east of the Agasiz Bridge and was shocked at the amount of guts and heads that were floating downstream. When they are running at full steam pulling nets and bringing in their catch to the beach to be gutted the water is full of guts! That is not fishing that is more like the forebringer of the extinction of the Pacific Salmon. And yet the FN want to blame us for over fishing! A joke to say the least.
I ask all of you what is your total yearly catch of sockeye? Let us see what the average heavy duty sport fisherman's take of sockeye actually is and compare that to the "reported" take of the Cheam. Some of us go fishing everyday and some of us go everyweekend, and some of us like myself go maybe 3 times a season. I have a family of 6 and in the last 3 years we have only taken 6 sockeye and the equal amount of pinks and 1 jack spring. So I can tell you that my family is deffinately not over fishing!
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"Cheam actually feel that because their people can't survive on a diet of Fish alone they are justified in the selling or trading of surplus "food" salmon in order to purchase other food products". Does beer or a "new" old beat for the front yard count too?
Screw them...they want to sell the fish, get a COMMERCIAL LISCENCE and stand in line with the rest of the commercial fishermen in this province. Having a food fishery get priority is one thing...having a priority FN commercial fishery is DISCRIMINATION (and has already be struct down by the courts)!
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Gooey said
there are plenty of other bars we can fish outside of the requested area, I thinkity makes sense to minimise a sport presence during the FN openings. Frig, let them fish hard for a week or 2, watch every frigging boat and net...count every fish they catch, then get them the F*** outta the water once their quota is filled.
Just arrived in Edmonton, a good flight out and excellent view of the Fraser River as well. I donot know if it was good timing or not to be away. However, Gooey if you read the injunction carefully they want you to ask permission to fish in their territory, anytime. I imagine they will want money for it also. A number of incidents have happened already as they came ashore asking anglers to leave, some were given paper as well telling them this was their territory. Others I was told were given the injunction papers as well.
This will be only the thin edge of the wedge, let me tell you if they get this. Letter writing time, Rodney has posted the information you need. Phone calls especially to your local MLA telling them of this concern is very important. Try to do it now before it is too late.
I have made contact with the two MLA's in Chilliwack who are both in cabinet, so it is now your turn. Please do it now.
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Cheam band tries to shut out anglers
First nation seeks Supreme Court injunction to bar recreational fishing in natives' traditional areas on Fraser
Scott Simpson
Vancouver Sun
Thursday, August 04, 2005
FRASER VALLEY - Fraser River anglers are being confronted on the banks of the Fraser River by members of the Cheam First Nation who want a prohibition on recreational fishing in a traditional aboriginal fishing area near Chilliwack.
Band members are handing anglers a package of documents that includes copies of a statement of claim that Cheam Chief Sidney Douglas filed July 20 in B.C. Supreme Court.
The claim asserts that the band's aboriginal fishing rights include "the exclusive right to use and control access to the fisheries in the Pilalt Title Area, including the sockeye fishery."
Pilalt was the original tribal group from which the Cheam are descended.
"Of course I don't like it," said Fred Wardroper, owner of Chilliwack Darts and Tackle.
"I don't know how you can close parts of the river for another user group. The people that have come into the store with these papers are not happy at all. I don't think they are intimidated. It just doesn't seem right."
As well as the copy of the statement of claim, anglers are being handed a letter from the Cheam's lawyer that advises that the band is seeking a Supreme Court injunction that would immediately bar anglers from angling in areas of the Fraser where the band operates its federally managed food fishery.
Both documents name John Doe and Jane Doe as the targets of the legal action, with those identities referring to "persons unknown who are and who are expected to be engaged in a licensed recreational fisheries [sic] for salmon on the lower Fraser River in July and August 2005."
Spokesmen for Fraser Valley sport fishers, guides and tackle shops said they are deeply disturbed by the Cheam's action and warned that it threatens both the common property rights that belong to all Canadians as well as a large portion of the Chilliwack tourism economy.
Douglas did not respond to The Vancouver Sun's request for an interview.
Cheam legal counsel Robert Janes described the injunction as an interim measure, limited in scope, that is only intended to allow the Cheam food fishery to proceed without having to manoeuvre around sport fishing lines and boats.
"There are five particularly critical [river] channels that are used for drift fishing and essentially we will be asking the court to have the recreational fishermen barred from those channels while the Department of Fisheries and Oceans opens the Cheam aboriginal fishery," Janes said.
In its statement of claim, the band said "overcrowding" by sport fishers diminished the volume of its sockeye catch in a July 23 food fishery, and it wants the authority to forbid sport angling in the area unless anglers have first sought and received Cheam consent to use their aboriginal "title area."
"It would have huge impacts on the economy in Chilliwack," said Frank Kwak, vice-president of the Fraser Valley Salmon Society.
Kwak noted that anglers come from all over the world during the summer and fall months to fish the Fraser, particularly around Chilliwack, for salmon and sturgeon.
Added Dean Werk, president of the Fraser Valley Guides Association: "This news is spreading fast.
"When it gets to the European world you are going to see cancellations and more cancellations and this will be devastating to British Columbia.
"Is this province open for business, or is it not?"
© The Vancouver Sun 2005
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reports from customers today saw FN fish sales in mission , agassiz and Hope. sockeye at all three locations were selling fresh from the cooler for 12.00 each.
These Cheams can kiss my freakin my buddy and DFO has lost ALL credibility.
I smell "Sport/recreation" protest fisheries on the horizon and YES, i'll be at the front of the line.
more to come on this action soon.
My days of buying freshwater liscences and conservation surcharge stamps are coming to an end.
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reports from customers today saw FN fish sales in mission , agassiz and Hope. sockeye at all three locations were selling fresh from the cooler for 12.00 each.
These Cheams can kiss my freakin my buddy and DFO has lost ALL credibility.
I smell "Sport/recreation" protest fisheries on the horizon and YES, i'll be at the front of the line.
more to come on this action soon.
My days of buying freshwater liscences and conservation surcharge stamps are coming to an end.
I hope they were all called in. If people had cameras, then pictures would go a long way too! We need to shove this in the faces of the top DFO/ministers and say "Look! They're SELLING the freakin' fish - NOT eating them!!!!!!"
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well put dragon i think i might take a drive with my camera and snap a few pics ;D ;D. hopefully i dont end up in a confrantation with the natives. :o
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I'm really surprised everyone is so taken aback by this and didn't see it coming. :-[
Quick rant ...
How many didn't hear about the FN bands that weren't allowing any non-FN moose hunters into regions west of Williams Lake last fall. They set up blockades on roads ... basically checking all travelling moose hunters. They also put forth an injunction to stop all moose harvest of immature bulls, which WLAP had reinstated into the general hunting season for 2004. Well you guessed it ... WLAP closed the immature season down and some hunters who had invested their holidays and money got screwed. Again this season the same bands have gotten WLAP to close the immature season down prior to the regs coming out. Why did they do this you ask ... they stated there was insufficient moose numbers to allow a general immature bull season even though WLAP biologists count showed otherwise? These bands claimed that it impeded their ability to harvest their winter meat because they felt moose population numbers were down. A large contributing factor was that these bands got squat in their food fishery last season due to the Chilko slide and the disappearing Fraser stocks. So they now they work with WLAP in setting general hunting seasons for all British Columbians ... and are content, for now. ::)
Getting back to the Cheam band ... WHY wouldn't they file this injunction. We all pretty much pissed on them for the loss sockeye stocks of 2004. They seen how and what the Interior bands got. Whether out of spite to sport anglers or just greed they're just following suit. Heck ... I'm going to tell you all this is just the beginning. You haven't seen anything yet. :o And will the courts and/or Victoria do anything about it? "Can you say Whistler 2010"
The FN bands across BC have a powerful hold over the powers to be for the time being by the simple suggestion of an Olympic boycott. So in the meantime they'll be allowed to get their own ways. After all, who's being inconvenienced ... just Canadians. :D :D
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Was there anything else in any papers or other media other than the Van. Sun. As in Edmonton isolated from the BC news. If anything gets on TV today or the next few days if someone could try to tape it for the SDA files that would be appreciated. Thanks
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Chris. Bill was on CKNW last night and it was on their news then, but gone today!
I expect something in the Chilliwack paper next time!
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Chris. Bill was on CKNW last night and it was on their news then, but gone today!
I expect something in the Chilliwack paper next time!
Thanks very much, it may be in their archives. Do you know the time it was on?
Yes I provided injunction notice etc. to the Chilliwack Progress on Tuesday night so there will be a story tomorrow. ;D
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my advice would be civil protest. Let's hire a lawyer, take pictures of illegal sales, have a picnic on the river, call the RCMP, invite the media to the "river picnic", call the radio stations, call the TV stations, ORR, and let's have at it. If the guys can go downtown and close down half the city for what have you reasons which are totally specious at best, then if we are worth a salt we will be able to organize ourselves peacefully, and effectively to deal with this task.
ANYONE interested in setting up a protest? I am on vacation next week, and I may just stand up and be counted to organize such a protest. Don't know if anyone would be with me, but if you are interested in setting up such a protest, and peaceful protest would be the mandate, I may be willing to dedicate my time and money to taking pictures, firing up the press on this issue, and putting the CHEAM under the spotlight for the CROOKS that they are.
PRIVATE MESSAGE ME if individuals are INTERESTED in ORGANIZING A PROTEST or ORGANIZING OURSELVES INTO SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO GET US LOTS OF PUBLICITY via donating your time to EXPOSE THE FRAUD that NATIVES conduct their "food and ceremonial" fisheries under. Please include your email if you are interested--and like I say, if there are enough interested parties out there, I would like to have the support of EVERYONE.
It's time that we take it to the RIVER and the PRESS EXACTLY how bogus this CHEAM injunction is.
At this time I am ONLY CONSIDERING doing this, so this isn't guaranteed. Anyone got time to donate?
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I'm game! I will be a good nothing to this country and protest!
PS...where in Mission was this fish sale...I have a digital camera.....
BOB
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Unfortunately illegal fish sales are not restricted to Mission. They are everywhere.
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Hold on to that protest people!
The Upper Fraser Sport Fishing Advisory Committee had a conference call with chairs of other regional SFACs (Lower, interior Fraser, Squamish) this evening to discuss this issue.
Tomorrow (Friday August 5th) at 9:30am in Victoria, Frank Kwak and Phil Eidsvick will be in court asking for an adjournment due to family circumstances of the Sportfishing Defense Alliance lawyer and the lack of preparation time of our argument.
In the meantime, we are asking the angling public to avoid any confrontation this weekend during the First Nations openings. Current opening periods are 18:00 Thursday, August 4 to 18:00 Saturday August 6 for set nets and 08:00 to 20:00 Saturday August 6 for Drift nets. If Chief Douglas and his band members approach you and shove the papers into your face (that's what has been taking place since earlier this week) asking you to move so they can run a drift net down a run that you occupy, Don't get yourself into an argument. Best thing to do is to pull the anchor up, move aside. Even better, avoid the areas that are mentioned in the injunction this weekend. I will find out where you can submit these reports (probably SDA, FVSS).
This is what we are recommending anglers to do this weekend, whether you do it or not, it's up to you. Consider the consequences. If a conflict occurs this weekend, you can be sure that it will be used for the injunction. The Cheam's whole point of pushing for this injunction is that they are unable to driftnet properly and get their allocated catches during their openings because anglersare preventing them from doing so. A confrontation by a group of anglers would only help their argument.
In the end, the decision will be made by the judge and Frank, Phil, Bill and the lawyer will do their very best to ensure the injunction does not go through. They also need the anglers' unified support. We don't need to have any mini protests going on out there to complicate the problem.
At our last meeting with FNs, Chief Douglas first brought up about this injunction, soon after another chief also expressed his interest of having similar actions done on the waters that his band utilizes. This injunction is not a local problem, if it passes through, be sure other First Nations will be asking for it. As someone puts it tonight, it'll be the beginning of the end.
Observe, record and report
We also need you to be keeping your eyes open, record any unusual activities (eg. threats coming from other boaters/netters, FN boats that attempt/pretend to run your boat over, netting outside of opening hours, selling fish illegally etc) ON paper (date, time, location, colour and marking of the boats involved, description of the violators, etc, as detailed as possible) and cameras (digital photos, camcorder videos, etc) and report to DFO/RCMP (DFO'S ORR line: 1-800-465-4336, Chilliwack RCMP: 604-792-4611). Coming onto the forums and complain about what has to you or your friends does no one good, the words lack credibility unless it is properly recorded, reported, signed and filed.
FN/Rec Dialogue Process
After tonight's discussion, the Upper Fraser SFAC will continue the resolution dialogue by attending the scheduled August 9th meeting with the FNs. We will continue to work with all bands on all of the issues that revolve around these fisheries and leave this particular issue up to the court.
On a related note: Several of us asked about recreational sockeye openings tonight, no information was given. You'll all have to wait until Tomorrow, but apparently the news today was worse than earlier this week. However, there is enough fish for an FN opening this weekend. ::)
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Also, this injunction was first brought to Chilliwack Dart and Tackle by an angler who was approached by Chief Douglas while fishing. This is second hand information (told by the owner tonight) so don't quote me on it: He gave him the papers and requested him to leave the river, and also told him to expect to buy a license from them next year if he wants to fish there again.
FM, your intentions are good, but let's tackle this issue by joining an existing organized body of anglers. If anglers scatter and get together into small groups without communicating with each other before taking actions, it may simply backfire.
Thomas, are you working tomorrow? I'll do my best to drop by the shop tomorrow, if not I'll try to call to discuss some stuff regarding this.
SDA contact for donation is coming up.
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rod, i'm in 12;30 to closing time . at 9pm friday
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I am curious if people think that the dfo really does not know that the indians are selling fish.........
A guy I was talking to last night on the fraser is camping by the Sasquach and the indians were in there going from site to site selling sockeye for 3.50 a fish. And selling lots, who is to blame here..
Don't buy the fish,,, tell them to go .........( you pick your own words here)...
And to the idots that were fishing at the top of Grassy in a boat last night, I hope you drown.. I was fishing at the bottom end and counted 17 empty bottles of beer floating by....LOOSERS...
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I was fishing at the bottom end and counted 17 empty bottles of beer floating by....LOOSERS...
The idiots probably hop into their cars and drive home thus endangering everybody on the road. >:(
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:ogood job handling this one rod. i also agree a peaceful protest is good . but we should wait and see like you said before we do anything.but it does not hurt to take some pics while out on the river this weekend. keep us posted on this as im in for a protest for sure.(peaceful) that is ;D ;D
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one of my major concerns regarding "denying access" to sections of the fraser during native fisheries is this:
Sports Anglers have been the UNDENIABLE "eyes and ears" of DFO on the river for years and years. What will happen if suddenly we are no longer able to "Observe, Record, Report" fishery violations on the river????
say good bye to wild Fraser river salmon and steelhead stocks as well as the mighty sturgeon.
these are dark times folks, we need to get the donations to SDA to start rolling in like they never have before AND RIGHT NOW.
FOR ANY OF THOSE WHO WISH TO MAKE $$$$ DONATIONS TO SDA, COME AND SEE ME AT BERRY'S BAIT IN RICHMOND, WE HAVE THE FULL SDA INFO PACKAGE AND DONATION BUCKET ON SITE.
I would also urge all tackle shops in the area to start getting vocal and to start up thier own SDA cash drive.
I will also provide anyone who wishes, a copy of this injunction, just drop in and see me at the shop.
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Good job allwaysfishin. Going to PM you with the SDA 's treasurer's phone number so you can get the SDA's mailing address. Tell him I asked you to call him.
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NEWS RELEASE
For immediate release
August, 4, 2005
Chilliwack - Chuck Strahl, Member of Parliament for Chilliwack-Fraser
Canyon, today expressed disappointment with the Cheam Band's decision to
proceed with court action in an effort to ban sports fishers from the Fraser
River.
"There are enough fish to go around", said Strahl, "and the best way to
ensure they are allocated fairly and impartially is to sit down with all the
stakeholders and discuss options openly. Given recent efforts by many
aboriginal and sports fishers to have these face-to-face discussions, the
decision to take this to court in the middle of the season is very
regrettable."
Strahl was also adamant that no one group be excluded from the fishery. "The
Standing Committee of Fisheries and Oceans made unanimous, all-party
recommendations regarding the salmon fishery, and unfortunately the federal
Minister has chosen to ignore most of their ideas. At no time was there even
a suggestion that sports fishers be excluded, though there were concerns
expressed about - and recommendations made to curtail - the aboriginal drift
net fishery. In other words, we have always had a mixed fishery, and that
should continue".
During a visit of the northern part of the Chilliwack-Fraser Canyon riding
last week, Strahl toured the waters between Lytton and Hells Gate with DFO
officials and a representative of the Lytton band. There were no fishing
violations at all on the river at that time.
"Both aboriginal and sports fishermen in the interior agreed that sharing
the resource is the way to go, and by meeting together regularly the
problems between the two groups have largely disappeared. DFO officials,
aboriginal fishery personnel and local sports fishers are working hard to
protect the resource and find ways to ease any tensions on the river. There
are some good news stories on that portion of the river, and folks there are
to be congratulated and encouraged for their efforts. It's my hope that we
can learn from their success and I urge all stakeholders in the lower Fraser
area to continue to dialogue outside of the court system".
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From http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050804/BCFRASER04/TPNational/Canada
By MARK HUME
Thursday, August 4, 2005 Page S1
VANCOUVER -- A native band has been handing shocked sports anglers on the Fraser River a statement of claim that names the fishermen as "John Doe and Jane Doe" in a court action that will attempt to ban thousands of recreational fishermen from the water.
"This is a serious matter. They want all non-aboriginal fishermen off the river. They want an exclusive fishery," said Phil Eidsvik of the B.C. Fisheries Survival Coalition.
The Cheam is a small band with about 300 members who fish mainly on the Fraser near the Agassiz-Rosedale bridge, about 80 kilometres east of Vancouver. The band is going to the B.C. Supreme Court to seek an injunction against "John Doe and Jane Doe prohibiting them from carrying out the 2005 Sports Fishery . . . without the permission or consent of Cheam."
The development is expected to exacerbate an already tense situation on the river that one native spokesman has described as "dangerous."
On any given day during the summer, up to 1,500 sports anglers can be found fishing for salmon on the lower Fraser River as it winds through the Fraser Valley after emerging from the Coast Range near Hope. One of the most popular spots to fish is along gravel bars above and below the Agassiz-Rosedale bridge.
"In the past day or two, fishermen on the bars near the bridge have had native guys tell them to leave, and when they refused they have had these papers shoved in their hands," said Frank Kwak, a member of the B.C. Federation of Drift Fishers.
"One fisherman was told, 'From here on in you will be paying us to fish here'."
Mr. Kwak said the development is disturbing. His group and the B.C. Fisheries Survival Coalition plan to fight the application when it goes to court. It is expected to be heard in Victoria this week.
In the past, sports anglers and aboriginal fishermen have clashed on the river bars near the bridge. There have been reports of fishermen hurling insults -- and rocks -- at one another, but this summer has been largely free of conflict due, in part, to a peacekeeping effort that has been under way for several weeks.
Bill Otway, a member of the Sport Fishing Defence Alliance, said chiefs from several bands and representatives of sports anglers have been holding meetings trying to develop a dialogue. But he said the threatened legal action of the Cheam is a blow to that process -- and it threatens to spark more clashes between sports anglers and aboriginal fishermen.
"We are telling our guys to be cool and to be courteous because we think what the Cheam really want is to trigger conflict so they can say, 'see, we need [sports anglers] banned.' "
Mr. Otway wasn't aware of any conflict during the time natives were legally allowed to fish, but he said harsh words get exchanged when sports anglers witness natives fishing in closed periods.
"Nobody that I'm aware of has ever come into conflict with natives over legitimate fisheries," he said. "If they are coming through with drift nets they usually just ask guys to move, and they will pull their lines and let the nets go through. It's not a big deal usually."
Mr. Otway said the Cheam, who are one of 19 Sto:lo bands on the Fraser River, have long sought control of the popular and productive waters in the Agassiz-Rosedale area.
"This is just the start," said Mr. Otway, who warned that if the Cheam are granted an injunction, other bands could follow.
In the statement of claim, Chief Douglas says his band "exclusively occupied the islands, bars, beaches and banks on the Fraser River . . . and exercised exclusive control, in accordance with the customs, traditions and laws of the Central Coast Salish over the fisheries of the Fraser River in this area."
He said the band has "the exclusive right to use and control access to the fisheries."
A map filed with the statement of claim shows that the Cheam are claiming control of about 20 kilometres of the Fraser River, as well as parts of Harrison River and Harrison Lake.
Ernie Crey, a fisheries consultant with the Sto:lo Nation, said the Cheam want to keep sports anglers out of the area because they don't think they can share the water peacefully.
"There has been name calling. Rocks have been thrown from the shore. . . . It has become dangerous," he said.
Mr. Crey said the federal government created the problem by allowing the sport fishery to expand over the past decade, with the harvest limit for sockeye growing from around 5,000 salmon to 50,000.
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Some updates for those who are interested.
Just heard from Frank, they will be reconvening at 1400 this afternoon. Phil will be speaking at that time. He believes that the case may be held over but only until Monday. The judge has given an indication that this is an emergency and as such must be addressed sooner rather than later. Frank is not positive about what he has seen so far.
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On a "Glass is half full" side of things. if we get an opening on Sunday, we'll get 1 day of Sockeye fishing in ::)
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keep us posted rod and thanx for all your reporting so far. ;D
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1 day better tell the wife im busy sunday :o just dont seem fair does it :'( :'(
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Just got off the phone with Randog who's guiding today, he has seen up to six drift nets going by at Spaghetti today. I am unaware of any drift net openings today, except the set net opening taking place from yesterday until tomorrow and the 12 hour drift net opening tomorrow. Again, phone the ORR if you see something that you think needs to be reported please. 1-800-465-4336.
Edit: Just confirmed with DFO, no drift net fishery today.
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Once again the natives are flaunting the laws. >:( Wonder what DFO is going to do about it.
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:-Xprobably nothing :-X
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I can't stress it enough, phone the ORR line 1-800-465-4336 when you see something illegal taking place! The river is big, there are only so many enforcement officers. You phone in, they'll do their best to catch people. You don't phone in, they will not be aware of most of the activities going on.
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Sportfishing Defence Alliance
PO BOX 2477
Chilliwack BC V2R 1A8
Berry's Bait and Tackle has a donation jar set up as well.
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After discussion with my employers at Berry's Bait today, we have adopted the following thoughts on this subject.
We support a full closure to the sockeye fishery for ALL USER GROUPS in the Fraser river due to the current "marginilization" of the different stock groups, we feel this is necessary simply on the basis of Conservation.
We recognize that in 2004 sockeye were "overfished" by First Nations and by Commercial fishing during both legal and illegal gill net fisheries.
We believe that all properly liscenced individuals should have equal access to fraser river fishing opportunities and that no, one special user group should have control over these fisheries as the Cheam believe they should.
We are throwing our support behind the Sportfishing Defence Alliance and urge all sportfishers who fish the multiple species in the Fraser at all times of year to start contributing in any way you can.
We will try over the next few days to have copies of the injunction availlable for customers to pick up.
Donations may be made through the store and S.D.A. literature is availlable at the store now for those who are not all that familiar with the association.
Also for continuing updates on the injunction and sockeye fishery updates call our report line 604 638 5899
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After discussion with my employers at Berry's Bait today, we have adopted the following thoughts on this subject.
We support a full closure to the sockeye fishery for ALL USER GROUPS in the Fraser river due to the current "marginilization" of the different stock groups, we feel this is necessary simply on the basis of Conservation.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Interesting, as there is at present no conservation concern that has not been addressed by DFO.
It does appear that there is an ILLEGAL Fishery going on by the Cheam Band and that needs to be addressed by DFO. ( If the threads above are correct)>
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Some bad news folk. I just got off the phone with Frank.
A temporary injunction has been given to the Cheam this weekend. The court will proceed on Monday.
more details coming up, when the phone stops ringing.
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There is NO drift net opening today and Sunday, make sure you phone any drift netting activities in at 1-800-465-4336! During tomorrow's opening (0800 - 2000), RCMP will be asking people to leave the area applied by the injunction. Please be civil, do not get yourself into a situation when confrontation would occur.
I don't have the exact areas where anglers need to stay away, but the major ones are Herrling, Spaghetti.
More info again soon.
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VERY PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE
today i updated the berry's bait report with an imporatant message to all anglers.
this was approx 4:00 this afternoon.
I have had 5 or 6 calls at the shop with people pledging large donations.
KEEP EM COMIN FOLKS
and thanx for the support!!!!!
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question.... where are the other tackle shops on this subject....
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Court imposes temporary ban on recreational fishing by boat on lower Fraser
Aug, 05 2005 - 7:00 PM
VANCOUVER/CKNW(AM980) -- Recreational fishing by boat has been temporarily banned by the courts in an area of the lower Fraser River near Chilliwack. The Cheam First Nation has won an interim injunction in BC Supreme Court.
Cheam lawyer Robert Janes says it addresses their top concern - boats standing in the way of Cheam fishers. "The judge ordered that for the next few days, up until the end of Tuesday, that sport fishermen on boats would have to leave the channels where the Cheam aboriginal driftnet fishery will be going on.”
Bill Otway of the Sportfishing Defence Alliance rejects Cheam claims, saying recreational fishermen were not hindering aboriginals.
More arguments will be made in court next week.
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Am I to understand that boat access bars are still open? and that only fishing from anchored boats is covered by this injuction? any clarification on this!!!!
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From the little information that I've received over phone calls etc (will have clarifications later on tonight), RCMP will be asking anglers who anchor their boats in the concerned areas to leave. If you do not leave, you will probably be arrested. I don't see a problem passing by the area on a boat. The goal of Cheam is to make sure there are no anchored boats so they can drift their nets down freely. This also means, there would be no eyes and ears monitoring exactly what is happening in the area.
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:'( guess i will stay home so i dont end up in jail. :D
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Pilalt Territory mentioned in the injunction.
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/member/pic/050805-1.gif)
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so does this mean that shoreline, foot access sport fishers will not be hindered from access to the fishery???
can a guy shuttle fishers to the bars in this area and drop them off, thus never needing to actually fully anchor up??
As I understand legal matters, letter of word is VERY important in trying to prosecute someone for an apparent or alledged violation of law. This interim injunction as written in the above post, indicates anchored boat fishermen. Any shoreline fisher who is interupted or arrested by the RCMP in this area will definately have a strong case against any charges.
I don't work monday tuesday and I'm going to go investigate, with camera and notebook and cellphone in hand.
I encourage ALL parties to maintain thier usual presence on the river even if you are not fishing but avoid altercation and give a wide berth to native boats. OBSERVE RECORD AND REPORT is our duty as conservation motivated sportfishers.
A lot of film footage could be gleaned this weekend to be made availlable to local media and as evidence for the SDA in any court defense if we maintain a civil but ever vigilant presence on the river. Be sure if you are using a camera that prints the date on the photo, to set the proper date prior to filming.
This is Canada, there are no borders within our country other than the provincial borders and the area outlined by the cheam IS NOT recognized as Native private property nor is this entire area labelled as reserve land nor is it a seperate province from the rest of B.C.... to the best of my knowledge.
If the moderators feel this post is suggesting action beyond what you feel is appropriate feel free to modify this post
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Good point, that is one of the two things I am trying to clarify right now with a few contacts.
One is whether foot access would be allowed.
Two is, the judge has told the sportfishers to stay off until Tuesday while they drift net, but the opening for drift netting is only this Saturday from 0800 to 2000. Doesn't this mean boats should allow to anchor outside of this time?
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why are the RCMP going out for this injuntion
but are never or rarely around to inforce the laws of canadU
continue to vote liberal my friends for more of the same
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This really riles my non native feathers. Good thing I am leaving for the West coast of Vancouver Island on Sunday to catch salmon legally and honorably, while sharing the water with all those entitled to be present. Otherwise I might be tempted to anchor my boat in the injunction area, catch some rays and read a book.
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Yes Guys, watch their every move, and every time they slip up, if it is past or before the time, and NOTE EVERY incident. The charter of rights and freedoms allows you FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT so it is perfectly legal to watch them fish, as long as you don't interfere.
I too will drive out there to watch this BS. HAS ANYONE NOTIFIED AND INVITED THE MEDIA OUT TO THE FISHING AREAS YET?
I have a 1GB Sandisk SD card in a 6 Megapixel Camera with 10X optical zoom that I am going to bring along. TAKE PICTURES of the fish sales too!
I SPY WITH MY LITTLE EYE>>>>> :) :)
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those of you on the river in the "HOT ZONES" i'll call them, should maybe make a white sign with black letters to hold up for viewing by RCMP and FN fishers that reads " OBVSERVER". I know that sounds hilarious but if media cameras are present and a boat that is flying an Observer marking gets hassled or involved in an altercation, that's the kind of stuff that gets peoples attention. Do not antagonize FN's , approaches should only be made to within detailed camera view.
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I cant beleive everyone is just sitting on there butts waiting for something to happen. The longer we sit here, the worst it gets. We are going to loose OUR resource of salmon and all anyone can do is wine about it. GET OUT THERE AND SHOW THEM WE WILL NOT GO DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT!!!!!!
Report Number:10112
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it's already happening steelie5000,
there are three things folks can do right now, from on there butts or how ever they see fit.
1) write your feelings to the government and dfo contacts listed earlier in this post
2) squeeze a little outta your monthly budget and donate to SDA
3) Observe , Record and Report and if you will be on the river bring materials to document what you see and make copies for evidence purposes.
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Listen reriger...why does the blame always go to the rcmp? Are you aware of the rights the rcmp have on native land?? have you spent a day working on duty, 18 hrs (8 hours voluntary overtime due to call volume) of going from complaint to complaint with no meal breaks, wearing all that gear in this heat?? Typically the rcmp cannot act on situations similar to this unless there is a specific court order, threat to human life or a criminal code offence. Have you researched how many dfo officers there are to man this area?? Ratherthan jumping to conclusions and blaming the rcmp, do your research. Why aren't you blaming the courts or the judge in this matter?? They are the ones that issue these orders.
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Headed upwards of Mission now guys, get in the truck and or car, leave the fishing gear at home, get a coffee, grab your camera, and lets go!
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just spoke with the chilliwack RCMP
the seargeant handling this has in formed me of the following
I asked him about the area in question , I was told it ran from the top of herling island down just past island 22 to the reseve land there, both sides of the river, bank to bank.
I asked if shore angling was permitted, he replied that the injunction covers anchored boats only. Shore anglers should not have any problem with RCMP. this means that if you are hassled by natives... CALL THE RCMP
I asked if boats would be in violation of the order if they were simply operating in these waters and either observing or transporting anglers to the bars. I was told that this was also NOT a violation of the injunction order. Again if you are hassled by FN's, call the RCMP.
I was told that the RCMP are not just on the river to "back up the natives" there presence is to ensure that all parties do not get into conflict.
I would personally rather not hear from anyone who has negetive words to say about the RCMP, they have a tough job to do, let them do it.
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Appreciate the clarification Chris
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If people are looking for background of the Sportfishing Defence Alliance, you can find it on this page (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishy_news/050805-2.html) now.
Last night I also made up a donation form for the Sportfishing Defence Alliance so you can print it out and mail it in with a cheque if you want to donate. You can download the form on this page (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishy_news/file/050805.doc).
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So by being not allowed to anchor a boat does that include not allowing it to be pulled up the shore and kept there while the angler fishes off the bar?
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I was told in clear terms. This injuction refers to BOATS ANCHORED IN THE CHANNEL.
If you are able to completely beach your boat you should be ok.
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why are the RCMP going out for this injuntion
but are never or rarely around to inforce the laws of canadU
continue to vote liberal my friends for more of the same
lol.right like the conservatives or ndp would be any different,gsus they are all 1 and the same,and none seem to care about sportfishing or the money we bring in.check g.campbell for instance whats he done for fish,in a province where sportfishing brings in more $ than everything except pot.
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Cheam seek court solution to conflict
Shelley and Jay Hand from Abbotsford fish with their seven year-old daughter Beth on the banks of the Fraser River Wednesday evening. KARI MEDIG/PROGRESS
By Robert Freeman
The Progress
Aug 05 2005
The Cheam First Nation is expected to seek a court injunction today (Friday) in Victoria to keep sports fishermen out of their claimed fishing areas on the Fraser River.
But Cheam Chief Sidney Douglas says the injunction is aimed only at five limited areas on the river between the Agassiz-Rosedale bridge and Herrling Island where Cheam fishers are using drift nets and need "clear passageway" to avoid clashing with recreational anglers fishing from the gravel bars and shores with rod and reel.
He says most anglers are "reasonable and move out of the way, but there are some others who aren't so accommodating."
"We're not trying to shut the whole sport fishery right down," he says. "We just want the best opportunities for our fishermen."
Native fishermen have only limited fishing times, he points out, while recreational anglers have virtually unlimited access.
"We've been limited to our fishery, and we've got to make the best use of what little time we have," he says.
Phil Eidsvik at the B.C. Fisheries Survival Coalition calls the Cheam move "duplicitous" since it comes as sports and native fishermen have been holding talks aimed at easing tensions on the Fraser River.
"It's a public river, owned by the people of Canada," he says. "They have no more right to be there than we do."
Bill Otway, president of the Sportfishing Defence Alliance, says he is not surprised the Cheam are seeking a court order at the same time they are engaged in the talks to resolve the conflicts between sport and native fishermen.
"It's a ridiculous situation to start with, but they have no basis in fact for a claim," he says, because there has been no "interference" in any legal native fisheries by sports anglers.
"If they don't get an incident, I don't see how they can go (to court for an injunction)," he says.
The Cheam claim in the injunction application that a July 23 opening this year for native fishers was "significantly impeded" by the large number of sports fishermen fishing for salmon.
"The large numbers of sports fishermen present in these channels made it difficult for the Cheam fishermen to use their drift nets to carry out the authorized food fishery," the Cheam claim, and as a result of this "overcrowding by sports fishermen" the Cheam fishers obtained "significantly lower catches than expected."
Frank Kwak, a sport fishing representative at the talks with native fishermen, says recreational anglers are "very disappointed" with the Cheam legal action, but he says it won't "derail" the dialogue process.
"There are some other issues we can deal with First Nations as a whole," Kwak says. "We feel we have some common ground on some issues with some of them."
"However, the Cheam (injunction application) has kind of put a crinkle in the (dialogue) process, as far as the Cheam are concerned," he says.
Chief Douglas says the Cheam also want to continue the talks.
"We still want to work with the recreational fishermen, but we feel there are certain sports fishermen that don't agree with us fishing in the same waters," he says.
Kwak says lawyers for the recreational fishers will oppose the injunction in court, arguing that "the province does not give the waterway to the native bands, even though a river runs through their supposed territory. We're hoping they can't do this."
According to a copy of the injunction application obtained by The Progress, the Cheam are claiming
"exclusive control" over fishing areas within the territory claimed by the Pilalt tribe.
"At the time of assertion to British sovereignty in 1846, the Pilalt held aboriginal title to the (area), including the beaches, banks, bars, islands and bed of the Fraser river," the statement of claim asserts.
The Cheam are also claiming federal fisheries officials have "effectively" given priority to non-aboriginal sport fisheries over aboriginal food fishing rights.
"The limited number of aboriginal openings and the short notice of those openings makes it very likely that there will be members of Cheam who will be unable to satisfy even their basic food fishery requirements for the year 2005," the claim states. "If the Cheam fishermen are unable to satisfy their food fishing needs in the course of the openings permitted by DFO, there will be Cheam members, including elderly people and children, who will suffer hardship this year, as the sockeye food fishery is essential to the sustenance of many Cheam families."
Both sport and commercial fishing groups also complained about short notice of the injunction application given by the Cheam, which left them little time to arrange legal representation at Friday's court hearing.
Otway says the SDA received no formal notice of the application, but learned about it from anglers who were handed notices as they fished from Fraser River gravel bars.
However, he adds that he's not surprised the Cheam have gone to a Victoria court for the injunction, instead of a Fraser Valley court, because the judges there know "dick all" about Fraser River fishing issues.
Chief Douglas says the Victoria court was the closest one to the Cook Roberts legal firm representing the Cheam.
rfreeman@theprogress.com
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Just stopped at pegs legs (water still very high and not crossable) and spotted many rec anglers anchored in the main channel fishing off their boats. I guess with a notice give this short most people probably don't know about it. Didn't see any native nets or RCMP.
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So the natives want everyone off the river when they fish. Do you think this is because the recreational fishers are fishing illegally? That we are taking too many fish? Catching above our catch limits? Using illegal methods to fish for these fish? I don't think so!!! Where is the DFO when you see the natives take boat load after boat load of fish home for ceremonial and personnal use. These people must have very large families to eat all those fish. Why does the DFO shut down the recreational fishing and commercial fishing but not the native fishery? The amount of fish caught and kept by the recreational fishery is very small compared to the native fishery. I do believe changes should be made for the recreational fishery. Such as when fishing for sockeye and you have kept your 2 fish your are to stop fishing, not keep fishing in case you catch a spring. This way the amount of caught and released sockeye will drop dramatically. If the fishers can do it with steelhead we can all get together to regulate it with the sockeye. Also some people have to taught how to properly release a fish. Not to raise it in the air or drag it along the rocks to get your hook out. If you can not afford to cut off the odd hook to allow the fish to live you should not be fishing. You also do not have to play the fish until it is almost dead then release it. Contrary to what you believe it is not your right to play the fish that way, get it close to shore and release it as soon as possible. Bringing them into shore lifting them up out of the water a couple of time like they do on most TV fishing shows is not the proper way. Get a picture while they are in the water and release them without lifting them out of the water. We must all get together and teach each other proper fishing etiquette and stay together to fight for the right to fish where ever there are conflicts. That the natives do not have the sole right to these fish. Wether it is on the Fraser river or any other water way. I have seen signs on parts of the Thompson river stating that to fish this area you must get permission from the native band to do so. So let us stay together and stop this before it goes any further.
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I am so very confused by all these posts so i have a few simple questions. So we cant fish at all at seabird bar? not even if you walk there? i was out today and saw plenty drift netting and many people at the bar.
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So the natives want everyone off the river when they fish. Do you think this is because the recreational fishers are fishing illegally? That we are taking too many fish? Catching above our catch limits? Using illegal methods to fish for these fish? I don't think so!!! Where is the DFO when you see the natives take boat load after boat load of fish home for ceremonial and personnal use. These people must have very large families to eat all those fish. Why does the DFO shut down the recreational fishing and commercial fishing but not the native fishery? The amount of fish caught and kept by the recreational fishery is very small compared to the native fishery.
Sums up my view very nicely.
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floater : READ MY POST ON THE TOP OF PAGE 8 of this thread regarding access.
Any bars that you can walk in to or be dropped off by boat at are fair game for NON native fishers.
The judge granted the injunction against "ANCHORED BOATS ONLY", from the top of herling island down to the reserve land that is just below island 22. from my view of the map, seabird, pipeline and scale bars are not in this area.
Anyone who is confronted by FN's who are acting hostile should be IMMEDIATELY REPORTED TO RCMP, especially if you are not fishing from an anchored boat.
IF YOU ARE NOT AN ANCHORED BOAT FISHERMAN THIS CURRENT INJUNCTION DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU.
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COPIES OF THE INJUNCTION ARE NOW AVAILLABLE AT BERRY"S BAIT
I have personally taken probably 50 to 100 calls between yesterday and today regarding this issue and many vows of support for the SDA.
Donation pledges are coming in like crazy, now i'll watch the mail and the store donation can
FILLING SDA COFFERS IS YOUR BEST ACTION TO SEE YOUR FISHING OPPORTUNITIES PROTECTED.
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Good to know im glad i can just fish in peace now cuz i hell would have to freeze over before someone but the DFO tells me i cant fish in the fraser. Its already a joke making us wait on the sockeye now people with boats cant even fish their fav spots and what about guides? Anyways today i saw many people on boats anchoring on other side of seabird and going right by the natives and their drift nets.
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Just talked to Frank on the phone to provide bit of an update.
The drift net opening is today (Saturday) from 0800 to 2000, so anglers are prohibited to anchor their boats and fish in the areas that are stated in the injunctions. However, there isn't a drift net opening after today so the injunction should not apply to these areas, anglers should be able to freely fish from an anchored boat.
Here's the tricky situation. If you decide to anchor and fish tomorrow in those areas and are confronted, what do you do? Stand your ground? Or leave to avoid conflicts? My suggestion is to best call the RCMP, if any FN boats threaten you because they want to drift a net through tomorrow, file a report. Also, let's say you are being filmed tomorrow fishing in the area, what's the likelihood of having this footage being used during court against us. "John Doe was fishing in this area during our opening (which in fact he wasn't, but he's not there to defend himself) so we are unable to conduct our fishery."
The lawyer of SDA will attend the court session on Monday despite of the fact that he just had his wife's funeral today. He will be asking the judge to postpone the court session due to his circumstances.
The RCMP has used the big search and rescue boat from Harrison Lake (paid by our tax dollars) today to escort the FN netting boats to the fishing areas, where the RCMP cleared the anglers before netting took place.
Once again, please don't get yourself into the situation that can later on be used against the sportfishermen. The SDA and various other groups have been doing their best to fight this in a civil manner. We need your support by reporting in all violations that you witness.
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let me see en4cer
who ordered the big rcmp boat onto the water as an escort
why the special treatment
oh yea their marching orders come from the same people who give the dfo theirs
ps
the judge is appointed by the same people
vote liberal for a prosperous canada
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regardless of why you people think the RCMP were on the water, it's pretty sad to hear guys knockin the law.
It would be ridiculous to assume that a stepped up presence would not be on the river as it is plainly obvious to most folks that tensions between FN fishers and sport fishers could cause multiple altercations.
I also don't find any fault in them " escorting" native boats, that way there are "eyes of the law" on them and maybe this will cause them to not hassle sporties.
Bottom line in ALL of this is that FN's AND sporties need to share the river, we just don't happen to agree with the way the Cheam want to see things on the river.
situations like these are why we have law in this country and the police presence on the river should not be perceived as a threat to sports fisherman.
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Been away from the computer since Friday so have a little time now to catch up on the news. Thanks to everyone for the posts and glad to see donations to the SDA are starting to roll in. Thanks allwaysfish and others for your work in gettings things setup. The SDA has been saying this was going to happen for a while and now it has funding raising has been difficult but I think it will be a lot easier in the future. I will be back early next week to join in this effort.
Hope everyone keeps their cool as nothing positive will happen if violence occures. Glad that the SDA lawyer will be able to be at the court proceedings on Monday.
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Where does it stop? Setting a precedent like this is very disturbing to me as a Canadian citizen and avid angler, hunter, outdoorsman and father of children who I hope will carry on my beliefs about the protection and love of our valued lands and waters. An injunction like this is like opening a can of worms. There are plenty of other bands in Canada who will be keeping an eye on the success of this injunction with hopes of accomplishing the same in their areas and their claims. Perhaps we will see the same come hunting season. What is to stop them from putting an injunction against the hunters of Canada. I'm sure they need to eat all of those animals up in the hills to right?
Perhaps not though, they will have a tougher time selling wild animal meat, unlike the quick windfall of money they make from the illegal fish sales.
If the RCMP, DFO and other governing bodies took the time to watch, assess, and enforce the amounts of fish the Natives took from our waters and what they did with the fish after the fact, the sport and commercial fishers would not have as many ill feelings towards the natives as they do. The fact is, the Natives have been given to many fish and too much freedom to do what they want with that fish.
The enforcement needs to be two fold; make sure the Natives take what they are allowed, and make sure they use the fish for what they are supposed to be used for.
100% food and ceremonial use is B.S. and we all know it. Sure there is the need for that, we don't argue this, but the amount of fish they want and take far surpasses what they could possibly need for their food and ceremonial needs.
Thanks to all who take the time to keep us all informed on what is going on with these issues.
We're all Canadians, stand up for our rights, and support the ones who fight for them on our behalf.
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well said brother :)
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Ok, who was on the water today and what did you see?
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Reriger....give your head a shake....if the RCMP wasn't there and the natives went out on their own and "requested" the sport fishermen to leave the area, you honestly think it would of been done peacefully?? So...., what shoot and ask questions later?? And if something were to happen, then the rant would be where were the RCMP?? The use of Kent Harrison's search and rescue boat...as for anyone involved in any search and rescue society the gear and equipment if funded by gamings or by fund raising. A lot of volunteer work and time are put in by the members of SAR and if you were in the situation where you needed to be rescued, would you want the equipment to be in working condition and of substance?
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hey i've got nothing against the rcmp
just their political masters
and don't try to tell me that the rcmp is seperate from politics
nothing in canada is free from politics
as a matter of fact political interference in dfo caused the mess we are in
i have totally lost all respect for the government of canada and all its institutions
sorry en4cer you might be a nice guy and you do an ugly job in difficult times
but i still hate your bosses
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Finally got something clarified. This came in the email not long ago.
The interim injunction is in effect until Tuesday August 9, 2005 and states that John and Jane Doe are prohibited from carrying out any recreational fishery by boat in the following Fraser River Channels: Lower Drift, Middle Drift, Upper Drift, Lower Herrling Drift and Upper Herrling Drift (Spagetti Bar, Upper and Lower Herrling, Morrows Bar and Ferry Island Bar) during any opening authorized by DFO that permits the Cheam FN to harvest salmon by drift net on the Fraser. The only authorized drift net opening within this time period was on Saturday. August 6 from 8 am to 8 pm.
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I am new to this forum as well as a novice fisherman, but I hate to see the hypocrisy in our government. I didn't realize that we had 2 citizenships in this country (WHERE HAVE I BEEN), where one group of people are preferentially treated vs another. I thought the issue as far as DFO and the commission was concerned was salmon conservation, yet the FN are given a blank cheque and the recreational fishermen (who have the least impact in terms of salmon depletion) are given the shaft. As per an earlier posting this is totally political. Interesting in how in Canada the minority groups are able to sway public opinion through our legal system. It's nice to see how our tax dollars are being used (in a round about way) to finance the legal council for the opposition.......................not. Sorry had to say my piece.
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??? so when can we fish from shore without bothering anyone ??? i mean i would not want to ruffle any feathers. and do ya think there is going to be a sockeye openning for the sportsm ??? ???en this week or next.??? ???
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As per the DFO website;
First Nations:
It is expected that FN targeting Fraser River sockeye fisheries in Area 29 and the Fraser River will continue this week, an update will be provided on Tues, Aug 9 following the next panel meeting
Recreational
Sockeye retention remains closed in the Fraser River. Opportunities for the commencement of Fraser River sockeye retention will be reviewed and an update will be provided Tues. Aug 9
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Just got back from Alberta so trying to catch up on things. I phoned Frank early this am and he was on the boat to Victoria along with Tony.The SDA's lawyer is appearing at the case in 10 minutes.
Apparently The Cheam's lawers made their case ALL DAY yesterday so it is our turn today.
Will keep you posted the best I can.
I was told yesterday by one of my fishing partners drifting was going on yesterday during a closed period. They were reported and I hope they will be in court shortly. It really bothers that these fellows continue to fish and some seem to have no respect for the fish or the fish's future.
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hmmmm so FN are drift net fishing while fishing is closed?
And we are not aloud to fish...so we don't?
Makes ya wonder...who is the dumb azz here?
BOB
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I have been trying to track down what happened today in Victoria and have talked to FOC officials, SDA etc.
All I can gather to this very minute is the judgement will be handed down coming down tomorrrow.
Will update if I hear more. Dropped down to the dialogue session that has just started here in CHWK.
Full representation by our SFAC committee, thanks to all of them for giving so freely of their time to represent us so well. Noticed FN rep's there including some I know, also at least one Cheam band member. We will hear how it went later I am sure.
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AS far as I can tell from the wording of the injunction we are only prohibited from the river while there is a drift net opening. So if there is no legal opening should the river not be open for all to use?
Centerpin 8)
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??? good point you think it would be open for all sportsman ;D
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AS far as I can tell from the wording of the injunction we are only prohibited from the river while there is a drift net opening. So if there is no legal opening should the river not be open for all to use?
Centerpin 8)
From what I gather you are correct. Although they want to give permission at any time.
The injunction is also only against anglers fishing from anchored boats. All other anglers (moving boats/shore bound) are not restricted.
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Judgement coming down at 9:30 am. Will be out fishing so hope someone else can post info as it comes in.
SDA will be swinging into action after announcement. Operation Barby once again????
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AS far as I can tell from the wording of the injunction we are only prohibited from the river while there is a drift net opening. So if there is no legal opening should the river not be open for all to use?
Centerpin 8)
From what I gather you are correct. Although they want to give permission at any time.
The injunction is also only against anglers fishing from anchored boats. All other anglers (moving boats/shore bound) are not restricted.
I am very sorry but I will never ever ask any FN permision to fish any water in Canada >:( >:(
Centerpin 8)
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no sorries needed
i think most canadians would agree you, I know I do.
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Round two, the Sportsfishermen overturn the injunction!
As noted on CKNW, 11am news.
Thanks to all who were involved!
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any news on this mornings decision yet????
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This just in from Rodney who's out bar fishing (quote) "the Cheam injunction has been thrown out by the court".
Furthur updates will be available later.
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Hopefully they will continue in the dialogue with SFAC DFO and the rest of the FN's.
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Continue to Dialogue? BS. If those Dialogues were working then the Cheam wouldn't have gone out there and filed an injunction.
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Continue to Dialogue? BS. If those Dialogues were working then the Cheam wouldn't have gone out there and filed an injunction.
Multipronged attack. Typical business strategy. While one arm negotiates the merger, the other sees if it can find dirt on someone to lower the share price.
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As noted on the 12 noon news the Cheam are looking at possibility of future court cases!
They blame the Sports Anglers for the lack of fish!
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Yah those damm sporties. :o You see them all the time hanging around the pubs ,camping grounds
and dead end roads selling their catch out of the trunks of cars .
Then at the end of the day , when do else will by the rotting fish they just dump them in a big pile
some where . :-X :P
Can't blame them though , who else is going to support their habits . ::)
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If the Cheam are going to file future court cases, they should really rethink their actions and the consequences of doing that. If anything, just watch MORE scrutiny of NATIVE FISHERIES around the province, most importantly them and their fisheries.
If anything, the Cheam think they can ram this down the sporties throats via going to court. I have news for you, it wouldn't be hard to expose the Cheam and other native bands for the smoke and mirrors their lawsuits really are.
If anything, someone should go out there and do a news story, and some investigative journalism into the current state of affairs of the dark side of FN fisheries in this province, and it would really become the talk of the town, and reintroduce the whole Native them back to the spotlight.
If anything, it would be nice to see the Fisheries Minister get off his my friend and get busy. I have written a letter and am just about set to fire it off to everyone in Ottawa.
If anything, the Cheam have no idea what kind of harm they are doing to themselves by taking this to the courts.
If anything, if the Fisheries Minister wanted to, he could start to deal with the Native Issue, and public opinion at this point is that certain bands think they are "HOT SH$$" and can thumb their noses at other user groups. Guess what FN rogues, if the fisheries minister decides he is going to deal with you guys, as public opinion and the other interest groups, particularly the commercial and sport, and other non users such as the general public, the Natives better be prepared to play hard ball.
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;D enjoyed reading your post fishinmagican i could not agree with you more. i still do not understand what the hell DFO is so damm afraid of the natives for if they were doing there job by the books they would be cracking down on the fns and them selling salmon like a other post said out of cars and trucks. why dont they go out and get a job like all the other sportsfisherman and buy there license and gear like we all have to . all i want is 2 sockeye to feed my family not 15.000 so charlie and the rest of the boys can buy beer and call it their right . there now i feel better ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D. and to all you guys who have been keeping the rest of us updated you are doing a fantastic job tight lines and sharp hooks to all of you and may the fish gods smile upon you in your upcomming days on the river ;)
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Excellent news that reached us at around 10:30 while out bar fishing today.
On top of this I hear court costs will be paid to the defense's lawyer. It is a tidy sum that I donot want to disclose incase the amount I was told may not be correct.
We must not let up as this is just a warning to what will most likely happen once again after the fellows that filed the injunction return from licking their wounds.
For once the recreational angler won something but the victory may be short lived.
I am going to Vancouver tomorrow and will visit 2 or 3 sports shops to drop off some SDA pamplets that give some background on the SDA and a donation bucket if they do not have one.
Now is the time to thank Frank, Phil, Bill and many others, a way to do so is to send in a donation to the SDA and drop some spare change in a bucket when visting a local fishing shop. I know Berry's and Hub have them.
O and we accept bills also. ;D ;D
We are having a big fundraiser in Chilliwack in November, more info on that later.
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none of this would be possible without the dedicated efforts of the folks with SDA. These folks are getting our voice heard and I think it's getting louder :D . Hat's off em !!!
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Below is a news release regarding this. At yesterday's Fraser Valley Fisheries dialogue session with FN, Cheam expressed that no matter what the outcome of this court case is, they will continue their participations in future dialogue sessions. I'll have more summarized notes and thoughts on yesterday's meeting tomorrow.
For Immediate Release: August 10, 2005
At 9:30 this morning, Justice Rice of the BC Supreme Court dismissed an application by the Cheam Indian Band to remove all sports fishermen in boats from a 20 kilometer stretch of the Fraser River during Cheam fisheries.
In his ruling, Justice Rice confirmed that sports fishermen and the Cheam both have a right to be fishing on the Fraser. He ruled that sports fishermen are exercising their public right to fish in an activity they love. Cheam fishermen are exercising their constitutional right to fish for food, but left open the question whether this right extends to fishing with drift nets rather than the traditional set nets.
Justice Rice ruled that although the sports fishing boats which anchor in 3 to 4 feet of water near the beach, “slow down” the Cheam fishery, it does not give rise to an interference in the Cheam fishery unless it prevents the Cheam from achieving their food fish needs.
In their application, the Cheam complained that they would not meet their food fish needs if the sports fishermen were allowed access to the river, but Justice Rice was concerned by the evidence before the Court which indicated that:
- The Cheam had a long history of selling food fish illegally. He cited band member Darwin Douglas, who had submitted an affidavit to the court complaining about a lack of food fish, but had testified before the 2004 Fraser River investigation that he sold part of his 2004 harvest illegally;
- The Cheam had already enjoyed more than 32.5 days of food fishing in 2005;
- No other band fishing in the area had complained about the sports fishermen;
- That other bands were apparently able to satisfy their food fish requirements using set nets rather than drift nets, but were still able to sell a substantial portion of their catch through the Sto:lo-only commercial fishery;
- That Cheam Band members were fishing illegally outside of the legal DFO openings;
- That the Cheam had not provided the court with disclosure about their number of openings, their catches so far this year, their food fish requirements, their surplus catches which had been sold and other evidence necessary for the court to decide this type of injunction application.
Justice Rice also noted the evidence of how conflicts are resolved in the Fraser River community downriver of the Mission Bridge. He cited evidence from Mike Forrest, a mariner and Port Coquitlam city councilor, who stated that commercial and aboriginal fishermen adjusted their fishing practices to share the Fraser River with 20,000 ton container ships, ferries, navigation buoys, barges, log booms and other river traffic and the Cheam could do the same.
In dismissing the Cheam application, Justice Rice concluded that the Cheam would not suffer irreparable harm if the sports fishery continued. Justice Rice issued costs against the Cheam in favour of the two defendants, Phillip Eidsvik, who represented himself, and Bob McKamey who was represented by Chris Harvey, counsel at the firm of McKenzie Fujisawa.
“The message from the court is clear, all fishermen have a right to share the river and the fishery,” said Phil Eidsvik, a spokesperson for the BC Fisheries Survival Coalition.
Eidsvik noted that “Fishermen must accommodate the needs of other users and no fisherman has an absolute right to the river – anglers cannot blockade the entire river, but neither can the Cheam have the entire.”
“This decision should lower the risk of confrontation between anglers and the Cheam in the Chilliwack area because the court has confirmed the right of both groups to be on the river. Neither the sports fishermen, nor the Cheam have a right to the entire river, there is space for both,” concluded Eidsvik.[/b]
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now that my friends... is the way the system is supposed to work. Good on Justice Rice for seeing this situation as it is.
I say we should file an injunction against the cheam, preventing them from the use of drift gillnetting in the upper fraser. It is stated in that press release that the other fraser bands satisfied food fish needs with set nets, it is now a matter of record. Justice Rice refers to "illegal fishing" by the Cheam and "illegal fish sales" in a manner that states these behaviors as fact before the court. Based on this illegal activity, the fact that Cheam do not adhere to DFO sanction openings and the Cheam's unwillingness to offer "full disclosure" when it comes to the successes of thier fisheries, they do not portray a responsible, lawful nor conservation oriented approach to fraser salmon species, thus putting them at risk.
It is thiers and our rights to be on the river, but NO CANADIAN HAS THE RIGHT TO BREAK THE LAW, regardless of "status".
Chris and Rodney, has this idea been brought up with your meetings with SDA folks? I would be willing to bet that this same justice rice would agree with the argument above. I'm no lawyer but it sure makes sense to me.
I vote for an injunction from John and jane doe fisherman against the cheam for all the reasons stated above. They are simply a threat to our fraser fish stocks, they proved it in 2004 and are on the road to repeat that behavior.
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Worth considering, will bring it up.
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wow thanx rod you just made my day with that post ;D ;D. as always my hats off to you and chris for all the hard work you both do to keeping the sportsman updated. im sure this court ruling will make alot of guys and gals on this board and others smile for a while. keep up the good work and hope to see you soon cheers ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Justice prevails!! Definitely a call for two beer after work rather than one! ;D We need more law men like Rice around who don't bend over to political B.S.
Cheers all, and congrats to those who fought for the cause!!
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Finally, a judge who can see through this facade.
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we were discussing this victory today at work and i mentioned the idea i had that we, jane and john doe fishers should file a supreme court injunction against the cheam to prevent them from using drift gill nets in the upper fraser and to obey DFO openings and closures.
Some of the evidence that can be used to support this is found in the above statements by Justice Rice.
Fact is, the Cheam are breaking the laws of this country and they have shown a general irresponsibility with governing thier fisheries.
the Cheam are selling food fish - fact
the cheam use drift nets outside of DFO sanctioned openings - fact
the cheam fish outside of DFO sanctioned openings - fact
the Cheam are responsible for overfishing sockeye last year - fact
the cheam are not practising methods which put conservation first - fact
the cheam are a threat to the resource and supervision and restrictions on netting practices and quota monitoring need to be applied - fact/ partial opinion
I would love to hear some dialogue on this as I am going to do some legal research on my own. Those who know me well say I shoulda been a lawyer...... just ask my ex wife hehehe i won't elaborate ;D but she wasn't happy after i beat her lawyer ,solo ;)
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Happy as I am about Justice Rice's ruling (and amazed that he shot down every aspect of the Cheam claim by agreeing that the FACT is that most of their fishery is illegal) let's not forget who we are dealing with here. Sid Douglas and his herd of thugs aren't going to give up easily. Prepare yourself for more ballaclava clad natives, and threats on the bars and on the water. They NEED a confrontation, and possibly violence, to "prove" their claims are justified. Let's try to be cool and calm out there, and if necessary, leave an area to avoid trouble. Justice Rice has restored my faith in the legal system (temporarily anyways) , let's not screw it up.
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Good posts allwaysfishin and RVT.
As I posted earlier we had to go to Vancouver on buisness so dropped into a couple of sports shops after.
Was a real pleasure to meet allwaysfishing yesterday at Berry's, always good to put faces to those that post on this great forum.
Was please to pick up $57 from Berry's yesterday, but Thomas all those pennies to count and roll. ;D ;D
Wish they were all toonies but every penny counts and I believe the war chest will now grow in the days ahead. Thanks once again Thomas for all your and the other staff for promoting the SDA. For those interested I dropped off the SDA pamplets at Berry's for those interested in reading the SDA message. Donation forms included also.
Then headed to North Vancouver to Highwater Tackle and had a good visit with Dave there, a great supporter of the SDA. He was sorry to report someone had stolen the SDA jar recently. ??? ::) I replaced it and gave him some of the SDA pamplets so drop in there to toss in a little of your change and pick up a pamplet.
Dave gave us a good tip on a restuarant to celebrate our nearly 40 year old anniversary, thanks Dave it was great. We then had a romantic stroll down to the water at the Lonsdale Quay with us both on our ce'ls listening to a conference call on the update on the Cheakamus spill. We did not tell Linda we were listening in (but now she knows) as I thought she might have asked us to leave. ;D ;D
Only kidding as it was an information tele conference and was open, so I was told.
I said this was a romantic stroll but we had talked over dinner how we had stayed at the old St. Alice Hotel on Third Street just above Highwater Tackle in 1965 and those were very romatic times then. ;D ;D ;D
Also we were staying there in the St Alice when we caught the spring salmon shown in my photo album.
It was a long day tiring day and, how I hate all the traffic in Vancouver so when we got home we just fell asleep, some pre 40 year old anniversary celebration all in the name of trying helping to protect our fishing opportunities. ;D
So for me do not forget to send in a donation to the SDA and that will make us all feel better.
Thanks
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This was sent by Bill Otway a couple of days ago.
Update on Cheam Injunction Application
As many of you are aware, on Tuesday August 2nd Frank Kwak on of our directors from Chilliwack was made aware of a move by the Cheam Indian Band in the Chilliwack area to ask the court for an injunction to ban anglers from fishing from a major stretch of the Fraser River whenever they were fishing. This ban would apply to fishing from the shore and from boats.
Frank immediately contacted me and arranged to have the material faxed to Brian Chan’s office in Kamloops where I happened to be at the time. Brian also forwarded the information to the provincial people in Victoria and to Wayne Saito and others. Frank got the information out to many of our members and to Phil Eidsvik the Executive Director of the Fishermen’s Survival Coalition. Phil immediately saw the implications of this action to all fishermen and went to work immediately to counter the claim. At the time the court hearing was supposed to be held in Victoria the next day, August 3rd. Phil spoke to the lawyers and was advised that there would be no action prior to Friday August 5th. Subsequently we were advised through Phil that in fact the hearing would take place in B.C. Supreme Court on Friday.
Frank Kwak worked very closely with Phil as by this time I was on the road to Elkford for a memorial event for one of my brothers who had passed away. At the same time our legal counsel, Keith Lowes was in the throes of preparing the funeral and memorial service for his wife for August 6th and so could in no way participate in a court action on August 5th in Victoria.
Phil e mailed me material from the Cheam lawyer and his draft affidavit while I was on the road and I reviewed these and worked with Phil by cell phone, (I am afraid to see my bill, actually I am afraid for my wife to see it), and settled on a course of action. Frank Kwak was working closely with Phil at this time as well as he had more specific details on the fishery than I did.
I should note at this time that Phil had agreed to go to Victoria and act for us at the Friday hearing as well as seeing to the concerns of his own members due to the probable impacts to their fisheries. Frank Kwak agreed to travel from Chilliwack to attend the hearings and assist as well. I committed the SDA to covering the expenses of both people at that time.
Despite an excellent brief by Phil and his evidence that the information put forward by the Cheam was somewhat lacking in facts and truth, the judge of the day, ruled that he was imposing an interim injunction effective that date banning fishing from boats in the areas requested by Cheam and this injunction would stay in force until the evening of Tuesday August 9th. He directed that there would be a full hearing before another judge starting on the morning of Monday August 8th and despite the position put forward by Phil on our behalf that there was no way we could prepare a defense in that time, due to the situation with our counsel who was burying his wife the next day, the Supreme Court just took the position that he did not care and the hearing would go ahead regardless if we were prepared or not. From every report I have this judge was totally biased from the start and had no intention of listening to any facts or information that was contrary to the Cheam submission. We should note that this was the same judge who rejected our application to set aside the injunction on the Qualicum River banning anglers from fishing a few years ago.
Phil and I discussed the position we were in and he was going to move ahead and do the best he could. Then he phoned to say that their lawyer, Chris Harvey was willing to come back from his holidays and attend to the matter as a personal favour to Keith Lowes. There were some travel costs involved and I agreed, after speaking to a number of our directors, to cover at least half of these. I spoke with Keith on Sunday and he said while he was prepared to attend on our behalf on Monday, he was not in any way prepared and felt we would do badly because of this. He had spoken to Chris and Phil and felt the most progressive position was for us to let Chris and Phil act for our interests but represent their constituents and make the point that the SDA was unable to participate due to his (Keith’s’) situation. This meant that if the case was lost on Monday/Tuesday we would be in a position as the SDA to apply for a set aside and another hearing as we had been prejudiced by the court action taking place when it did. We all agreed that this was the best way to go as Phil and Chris were representing our interests anyway and this gave us an additional opportunity for action if needed. Keith also worked with Phil and Chris to clarify legal points and prepared the defense in the Monday/Tuesday hearing.
I would mention here that I was speaking with Phil late into the evening of Thursday the 3rd where he was
still in his office working on the submission for Friday. I also spoke with him continuously on Sunday the 6th , again in his office where he was working to complete the final submission and coordinate the lawyers and witnesses.
On Monday Phil and Chris attended the court and as well Tony Nootebos one of our members from the Fraser Valley Guides Assn also attended to aid with an affidavit and facts for Phil. Frank was unable to attend due to an MRI appointment but he and Tony went for the Friday session.
I should mention here that I was in regular phone contact with Wayne Saito who is the independent conduit for the recreational anglers to the Provincial Fisheries Branch. Wayne was most helpful in ensuring the Province, including the Attorney General’s Department were keep appraised and he personally attended the hearings. In fact it was because of Wayne’s involvement I was able to get the results of the judgment on Wednesday morning early. Phil had dropped his cell phone early in the morning and was out of contact for me until late in the day.
I am attaching to this e mail a copy of Phil’s report on the hearing and the judgment. That we were successful this time should not make us complacent for the future. This is but the first round and we have to be ready for future rounds.
We owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to Frank and Tony and other of our members who worked so hard on this. The same must be said of our Counsel Keith Lowes and the Counsel for the Coalition, Chris Harvey. We owe an even bigger debt to Phil Eidsvik, Mike Forrest and Bob McKamey, commercial fishermen who stepped up to the plate in our defense when we were handicapped. Some of our members have wondered in the past why we are at times working so closely with the commercial sector on some of these issues, perhaps now they know and understand. The simple fact is that we have the same things at risk, the ability to fish in the future. This incident shows what we can accomplish by working together and that our differences in some issues should never overshadow those things of common interest and the benefits of working together.
This action has shown clearly that everyone needs to be far more vigilant and committed in the future. Also that the SDA cannot continue to carry the load by themselves, either physically or financially without some serious help. We were extremely lucky this time due to some very hard work by a very few people.
We need to understand that what has happened here is but the beginning. The Cheam will be back and other bands have made it clear that if the Cheam wins
they will be next to request the same restriction on the recreational anglers. There will be other court actions and other issues that will have to be dealt with. We need to be ready for these. I can see very clearly that a case can be tried to be made to close all fisheries in the approach waters as their catch reduces what comes into the Fraser and therefore impacts negatively on the native ability to catch their quota.
One of the other things I see we need to take court action on is to force DFO to
put a number and a real number on the Native catch for FSC. This is required
under Sparrow but DFO refuses to do it. We recommended it in the Williams
Rport but DFO has so far refused to take action. Without that number this
issue will go on forever.
A number of people have put their money where their mouth is and supported
the SDA in it's work particularly over this most recent action. We need a stronger legal backup fund so that we never get into a situation like this in the future.
We must continue to work closely with the commercial sector and any other group that has similar concerns and interests but we cannot expect to have them bail us out on a continuous basis. We need to be able to stand up for ourselves and that means a strong fund of dollars as well as people working on all our behalf.
I urge you to send your cheques, money orders or credit card donations to the address listed above. With your help we will be strong in the future and Phil and the coalition will be working with us rather than having to do the key work for us.
I would also remind all that we are holding a fund raising dinner in Chilliwack at the Best Western Hotel on November 18th. Tickets can be ordered through Frank Kwak at 604 792-8083 or Norm Fletcher at 604 942-0371. Tickets are $50 each.
Also we need trips and or merchandise items for the auction and raffles. Remember, your donations will help to ensure there is a future for our fishery.
I would like to close on a personal note of appreciation to all who worked so hard on the successful effort. I can say it was most frustrating to be so far from the action at this critical time, but it was a great comfort to know we had such competent people working on our behalf.
Bill Otway, President
Sportfishing Defence Alliance
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Went out on my usual Saturday morning Vedder River patrol and also slipped over to the Fraser River at Old Orchard Road boat launch. A few anglers out on the river and afew others putting in. A nice day to be on the river.
A truck was also there with two large totes on it. I imagine it was for the fish for the communal FN opening going on today. What made me wonder why they needed so big of containers when it is suppose to be for a food fishery only. How could a family eat so many fish. When we go fishing we have a small fish box on board to put a fish or two in.
We certainly have a two standards going on here and FOC is still refusing to enforce the law re these illegal fish sales.
I then left the river and as you can appreciate upset that the Government and FOC refuses to enforce the law of the land. A double standard at its worse. >:( :(
I then stopped at the grand opening of Reaction Tackle on Whatcom Road just East off Abbotsford.
Met Terry there and gave him a SDA jar and some pamplets as well. A nice looking store so if out that way drop in and also drop a little money in the SDA jar. ;D ;D
Then off to Hub Sports and a brief talk with Rodger as he is always so busy. The question on everyone minds will there be a sockeye fishery and I was asked that as well. I said I did not think so. :-\
Dropped off more pamplets with Rodger and was very pleased to receive $70 from the jar. Will take it along with the money from Berry's Bait to the SDA treasurer today. ;D
Working on getting a guide boat out to the Fraser this afternoon as a Chilliwack paper's photo journalist wishs some pictures out on the river. Phil was also working on getting Global TV to go out but have not heard from them yet so they maybe tied up with other stories today.
Note the words Sealand on one of the totes. Is that a fish processor?
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/DSCF0086.jpg)
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Makes you wonder why DFO make such a big show of being on the river this season when they don't enforce the illegal fish sales. Big friggen deal :(
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Makes you wonder why DFO make such a big show of being on the river this season when they don't enforce the illegal fish sales. Big friggen deal :(
We must keep up the pressure. We are receiving vibes from inside the department but it has been a known fact for sometime by most that the present Government is very afraid of another Burnt Church and other incidents from past years. With a minority government the Liberal have to play it this way as they donot want anything else to blow up in their face with a election not that far away. My take on it anyway, what do other think?
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Makes you wonder why DFO make such a big show of being on the river this season when they don't enforce the illegal fish sales. Big friggen deal :(
We must keep up the pressure. We are receiving vibes from inside the department but it has been a known fact for sometime by most that the present Government is very afraid of another Burnt Church and other incidents from past years. With a minority government the Liberal have to play it this way as they donot want anything else to blow up in their face with a election not that far away. My take on it anyway, what do other think?
The illegal selling of fish is a recent phenomena. It's was happening when there was a majority government in power.
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There was a Cheam First Nation incident today with DFO. I'll provide more when I get all the facts straight.
Below is a letter sent in from Bill Otway of Sportfishing Defence Alliance regarding what took place today.
August 13, 2005
Honourable Irwin Cotler
Minister of Justice and Attorney General
Government of Canada
House of Commons,
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0A6 and:
Honourable Wally Oppal
Attorney General
Province of British Columbia
East Annex
Parliament Buildings
Victoria, B.C.
V8V 1X4
Honourable Ministers:
I write to you today on behalf of the members of the Sportfishing Defence Alliance and many concerned anglers and citizens of British Columbia.
This afternoon I received the second reports in the last few days of illegal drift gillnetting and the threat to the well being and lives of the officers of Fisheries and Oceans Canada who were trying to enforce the law and protect the resource. These incidents are taking place in the Cheam fishing area immediately upstream of the Aggassiz/Rosedale Bridge in the Cheam Native Band fishing area.
Officers moving in to deal with the illegal operations are having their boats swamped, rammed and being swarmed by native persons and boats putting them very much in danger. In fact I am instructed that today they were forced to abandon their enforcement efforts due to the danger.
You two gentlemen have control and direction of the R.C.M.P. in this province and we are asking that you move immediately to have that agency take immediate action to protect and assist the Fishery Officers to carry out the law and protect the dwindling fish stocks currently in the river.
We would advise that failure on your part to take such action to control law breakers and protect enforcement staff will result in the death or serious injury to these brave people or a fish loss similar to what took place in 2004 in the Fraser River. That action means no fishing at all in 2008, a similar action this year would continue that disaster on into 2009 and possibly beyond.
A precious and extremely valuable natural resource, (capable of generating in excess of $100 million annually for Canada and B.C.) lost for future generations. And; with the allowance by government, through lack of strong action, for anarchy to rule on the river, the assurance that future stocks and economic benefits will be lost from all other years in the cycle runs.
Time is of the essence and we urge you in the strongest possible terms to act forcefully and act NOW!
Yours in conservation:
Bill Otway, President
Sportfishing Defence Alliance
Personal contact
P.O. Box 326 Merritt B.C.
V1K 1B8
Phone 604 313-7480
E mail waycot@shaw.ca
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So the judge has felt that the injunction had no merit. This is a good thing. Here are a few things to ponder. Where did life on earth come from? In any way that you believe all peoples on earth came from the same. So wht does that give the right for the Natives to fish and not the rest of society? We must be all related so there for we should all be allowed to fish. On a more serious side. I will like to see if the DFO does what they should after the judge has ruled and noted that the Cheam are over fishing and selling. If they do not step in now they never will. To all the fishers out there fishing for a spring. It is not your right to play a sockeye out. Bring it in as fast as possible and release it in the water. Ask for help if required don't try to be so macho. I have found over the years that if you fish nearer the middle of the river you are less likely to catch a sockeye. Shorten up your drift and do not drift so close to shore and you will catch just as many springs and far fewer sockeye. The rule I use is stop drift at about the 45 degree mark. By doing this I have been on the river and watched people all around me hook sockeye and I have hooked none. Then they all ask what I am doing different when I catch the spring. Tight lines everyone can not wait for steelhead season and get out of this Fraser BS.
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Makes you wonder why DFO make such a big show of being on the river this season when they don't enforce the illegal fish sales. Big friggen deal :(
We must keep up the pressure. We are receiving vibes from inside the department but it has been a known fact for sometime by most that the present Government is very afraid of another Burnt Church and other incidents from past years. With a minority government the Liberal have to play it this way as they donot want anything else to blow up in their face with a election not that far away. My take on it anyway, what do other think?
The illegal selling of fish is a recent phenomena. It's was happening when there was a majority government in power.
Right illlegal fish sales have gone on for years and it seemed to be an accepted practice to buy them in years pass. They were called Fraser Valley Chicken. I am sure readers of this forum may have bought them also.
It was reported that everyone bought their yearly supply to can etc. As well the RCMP, judges etc. bought them, it was said. Recently, meaning last year when 1.6 sockeye disappeared and a concern was raised that the stocks were in trouble the government was lobbied to do some thing to stop the slide of fish reaching the spawning grounds. Besides there was never a strong lobby group like the SDA that has become very vocal the last year to put pressure on the government to try to have them enforce the law of the land to help stem this slide.
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[
I then left the river and as you can appreciate upset that the Government and FOC refuses to enforce the law of the land. A double standard at its worse. >:( :(
Working on getting a guide boat out to the Fraser this afternoon as a Chilliwack paper's photo journalist wishs some pictures out on the river. Phil was also working on getting Global TV to go out but have not heard from them yet so they maybe tied up with other stories today.
Note the words Sealand on one of the totes. Is that a fish processor?
(http://www.fishingwithrod.com/albums/cgadsden/DSCF0086.jpg)
For those interested the story of my day continues under the Fraser River First Nations Openings August 8 -14 th thread.
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I commend all of you whom are standing up for our rights as sport fisherman. I will be heading to Berrys when I get a chance to donate a pinky to SDA. I agree with alwaysfishing's idea to ban the cheam from drift netting for the reasons he has stated and I implore all of you to call dfo if you see natives selling fish and demand they do something about it.
It is not your right to play a sockeye out. Bring it in as fast as possible and release it in the water.
This is a very good point and I shall add that anglers should have a pair of forceps or pliers on hand to easily release the fish unharmed and in the deep water not close to shore. Shorten up your drift and do not drift so close to shore and you will catch just as many springs and far fewer sockeye. The rule I use is stop drift at about the 45 degree mark. By doing this I have been on the river and watched people all around me hook sockeye and I have hooked none. Then they all ask what I am doing different when I catch the spring.
by doing this you will also decrease your chances of foul hooking a fish or catching someone else's line. At the end of my drift I pull up on my rod and reel as fast as I can so that my weight will go over top other peoples line. I also hold my rod straight out in front of me so that my line is not in anyone's face and when I reel in my setup is 11.5 feet (the length of my Trophy rod) in front of everyone and under the water. I hate it when guys try and do it the easy way by pointing their poles down stream causing their line to be in front of my face constantly which inhibits my casting and makes me cringe when there hook comes sailing by a foot in front of my crotch!
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Have received word today the Cheam is drift fishing today during a closure with several nets going full stream, not sure what FOC is doing about it. Too bad for once again the sockeye stocks are being hit just like last year. :(
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Anarchy on the Fraser - that is what the Cheam wants. DFO gave in last time when their brave officers got pepper-sprayed by the Cheam, and now this bandit band is getting bold that this strategy pays. What they are doing is to intimidate DFO again and see who blinks first. If DFO & the Liberal government let this go on, the Cheam will eventually be so emboldened that they will trash every law Canada imposes on them as citizens, and declare independence. By then, watch out for snipers when we go fishing. >:( I cannot imagine when other bands follow suit. The government should act fast & swift with these law breakers of the Cheam. They should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. It is now or never. We cannot let 300 natives hold this mightly country captive.
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Since they won't co-operate with DFO perhaps it is time that Indian Afairs starts to take economic steps against the band - IE decrease grants drasticaly ,
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Anyone with info on what they may have seen in this area over the weekend? PM me if you wish.
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i will be on the river tomorrow with camera in hand, also will report on any fish sales i encounter.
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If you see anything phone me on my cel. Will PM it to you. Good work in advance but be careful as things are getting pretty rough up that way.
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I have just been told some heavy drift netting took place today, reported to Observe and Report line. No respose at this time by FOC. Activitives were video taped I have been told.
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great work all i too am heading out with camera in hand and hopefuly will get some shots of fish selling.
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It is Monday and illegal drift netting going on. To top it of apparently FOC has given one Cheam Band member a commual license to harvest 20 sockeye. Can you believe that FOC could do that in face of all the illegal netting that has gone on the last few days since they did not win the injunction. How many fish do they need.
As most know I do not fish sockeye but I fear for the resource so much.
It is getting so close to the point and I thought I would never say this, is it time to do a drift of our own off Island 22. Would be a good media event and I have never seen the inside of a jail cell as I am sure if we did they would not hestitate to arrest us. Frank said if we were to do this he and I would be the only ones there, I donot think so. It is called being a martyr isn't it. Then this act would but us in the same scheme of things that are going on up river so it seems at this point to be a no win situation. However it would prove there is two laws in this country. Shameful. I have sent off several e-mails asking for some answers to the inaction of FOC and todate they continue to hid behind their computers and answering machines. That is shameful, shameful to the nineth degree. One day it will catch up to them.
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It is getting so close to the point and I thought I would never say this, is it time to do a drift of our own off Island 22. Would be a good media event and I have never seen the inside of a jail cell as I am sure if we did they would not hestitate to arrest us. It is called being a martyr isn't it. It would prove there is two laws in this country.
Like last year's protest, the DFO would make a big deal about arresting people deliberately breaking the laws then quietly drop the charges. They don't want to make it to court as it will only reveal the discriminatory policy of the DFO. >:(
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It is getting so close to the point and I thought I would never say this, is it time to do a drift of our own off Island 22. Would be a good media event and I have never seen the inside of a jail cell as I am sure if we did they would not hestitate to arrest us. It is called being a martyr isn't it. It would prove there is two laws in this country.
Like last year's protest, the DFO would make a big deal about arresting people deliberately breaking the laws then quietly drop the charges. They don't want to make it to court as it will only reveal the discriminatory policy of the DFO. >:(
Being in the jail hotel I would be able to see all the Leaf games as i am sure they have satalilite TV. ;D ;D
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What we need is media coverage of FN illegal fishing.
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It is getting so close to the point and I thought I would never say this, is it time to do a drift of our own off Island 22. Would be a good media event and I have never seen the inside of a jail cell as I am sure if we did they would not hestitate to arrest us. It is called being a martyr isn't it. It would prove there is two laws in this country.
Like last year's protest, the DFO would make a big deal about arresting people deliberately breaking the laws then quietly drop the charges. They don't want to make it to court as it will only reveal the discriminatory policy of the DFO. >:(
Being in the jail hotel I would be able to see all the Leaf games as i am sure they have satalilite TV. ;D ;D
I wouldn't know what would be worst punishment. Being in jail or forced to watch the Make Beliefs play shinny. ;D
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I'm disgusted.
I assume that whoevcer has actually witnessed this crime has called the authorities ? Not that they'd do anything...
Wonder if Chopper 9 would head out there?
Nikko
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Chris has been constantly keeping a watch on wrong doings on the water, and not just reporting but also doing alot of work getting politicians, to see the problems.
But sadly, when it comes to FN issues, government just shut their ears, eyes, and hope that before next election people would forget.
Hey you know may be all these scandel stuff that comes out before election is to divert focus from FN issues? ;D ;D
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Then really, why would FN need to sell their catch? I thought their nature friendly, catch only what you need to eat?
Or has it become exploit the source get all the bucks you can ???
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I don't know if i should say this out loud, but here goes
I like your idea Chris, a Very well publicized and extremely organized protest fishery may "have" to take place before government realizes that we mean business. Equal opportunity and conservation above ALL needs.
I spent the morning at seabird island bar 4:00 a.m. to 9:30 a.m. and then the upper pipeline bar from 10:00 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. I did not witness any drift nets and saw only 1 set net at the top of seabird island bar no where near sports fishers. Saw DFO helicopter 3 times only doing passes up and down the river. Saw no enforcement presence other than the chopper in the areas i visisted. Past thru hope looking for some sockeye to purchase and catch the sale on camera. Not a native to be seen lots of cops cruising town and tourists and travellers out the ying yang.
maybe i'll see about getting out tomorrow, my god i chewed thru 50.00 bucks in gas today from delta to hope and stuff........ even if sox did open who can afford the fuel these days?? :o
and BwiBwi, your last sentence sums it up in a nutshell, without question I beleive the answer to that is Yes. greed and gluttony, two of the greatest evils of the modern world.
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Yes it is costly being a volunteer fighting for fish for the future generations and for the fish's survival as well. If we do not it seems no on else willl. A number of us have send out e-mails, made phone calls the last couple odf days but we are getting no answers. They have gone into hiding. we must acknowledge it is not the ground troops as they are handcuffed by those above. We are having a couple of emercency FVSS and SDA meeting in the next few days to plan our response and a line of action.
Under the privlidge of a freelance newspaper reporter and freelancer for Global TV I gained access to a press conference on the telephone this afternoon. I missed some of it but what I did hear was very poor on the FOC representives. For example when asked by a fellow reporter about the incidents that happened this weekend at the Agassiz Bridge area, he answered he had not heard about it yet but would get back to the reporter. Of course as on an hour ago the reporter had heard nothing of course. We will see the story tomorrow if he did but I will not hold my breath.
Much of the other talk was about warm water etc. any excuse to get away from the true issues. One day the roster will come home to roost but will there be any fish left for anyone and all we will be eating is chicken.
Do not forget the special on Global TV tonight at 6, 5 minutes away. Repeat at 11?
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Another weak reporting job by Global on the sockeye situtation I thought. They also show a shot of kokannee in a spawning channel and call them spawning sockeye no big deal I guess
Thousands of sockeye have been poached once again this year and no mention of it. All the talk is about the environmental problems, warm water, food source in the ocean etc..
There was one good part i thought was author Dennis Brown saying too many fish get on the spawning grounds some years creating a lack of food for the fry that is effecting their survival. This is something Bill agrees with.
No one touches the real reason there is no recreational fishing in the Fraser this year and that is the First Nation senario.
Around and around we go.
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Chris, lots of good information being exchanged and keep up the good work. I would like to make a comment however about the over escapement of sockeye to the spawning grounds. These statements are for the most part coming from lobby groups that are pro commercial fishing. Do you really think they want those fish on the spawning ground? Every fish that they don"t catch is a loss of revenue to the fisher. I would sooner have to many fish on the grounds rather than a shortage. How many fish do you think were on the grounds prior to heavy commercial fishing? Loooots! Over escapement on occasion can provide additional nutrient to the system which benefits not only fish production but other species. Lots of chatter about sockeye but nothing about the poor return of chinook. These fish will be the next in line for closure after all the hard work the salmon society has put in over the years. Flossing is having a large impact on these fish and should be curtailed. How many springs are making it past the gauntlet at peg-leg? Chinook stocks this year are in the toilet and should not even be open. First nations is certainly getting lots of press but lets take a step back and look what the sports angler is doing to the stocks. Do we really need 10 chinook each? I know several anglers who take their limit each year. How many of those end up freezer burnt and thrown out? Bar fishing should be the only method to harvest chinook up to the time when sockeye are open, and then one could retain a floss caught spring. Lets get back to some sanity in our fishing methods and sport. I bet your surpised to hear this from a flosser, X bar fisher . Good job Chris ! Not long until coho fishing.
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Buck.........Well said and I could not agree more on the bar fishing only(stationary weight) until such time as the sockeye are open.....
While out on the river over the weekend I was blowin away by the number of people bottom bouncing,( I thought they had opened the river for sockeye and forgot to tell me) In a time when DFO has requested SELECTIVE ANGLING....
With all the comments directed at the first nations for there total disrespect of the DFO (and rightfully so) and the law, any person who chooses the bottom bouncing method in the name of selective angling is showing the same respect for the DFO request as the first nation,,perhaps the natives would have more respect for the sport fishermen if they seen the majority following the DFO request(all though I some how doubt this, it is still one less argument they have against the sport fishermen)..The way I see it, is if you are flossing during this time of selective angling you have no right to complain against the natives....
A big thanks to the SDA and Mr Gadsden for there efforts in watching over and fighting for this great River and the angling opportunities it can give.please don't spoil there efforts by giving the sport fishermen a bad name
P.S. don't forget to contribute SDA fund every little bit will help...
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Thanks buck, BwiBwi, Freddy 2596 and others for the kind words but remember there is lots of other working hard as well, for all of us and the fish.
Good stuff buck on the over escapement and the point you made re fish on the grounds before humans got here and screwed it up. The nutrient factor is as you mentioned very important as well. I certainly am not a scientist so what I reported re the over escapement may be incorrect.
I do know that FOC is trying to avoid the whole issue as I stated earlier they have gone into hiding and will not answer e-mails or phone calls from a number of us. In some of those on the lower part of the totem pole I canot blame as they will just be following orders from a bove to keep quiet.
The same goes for the FOC enforcement staff who got in a bit of a pickle on Saturday and it seems the RCMP have been instucted to not get involved as well.
Numerous complaints are coming into the OB report line but for the reasons mentioned they seem to be left in the file to gather dust.
I would hope some of the reason I have stated are wrong but as no will inform us what is going on I think I am correct. I will stand by that until I hear or see otherwise.
On todays press conference once again Paul Ryall was asked by a reporter about the incidents on the weekend, he said he had received nothing but would get the information for him but the reporter had not heard back about a hour before press time. Maybe he did call as he said he would but I will be surprised if he found the time to do so. :-\
Fortunally Frank was able to tell the reporter what went on anyway so watch for the info in tomorrow's edition.
What sorry times we find ourselves in. I have located a drift net to use in a protest but we will have to put our heads together to see if it would accomplish anything. I am planning a number of fishing and hunting trips in the next few weeks so I do not really want to miss them by spending time in the jail hotel. It is too bad that those that are entrusted in looking after our fis refuse to do so to drive law abiding citizens to even consider such actions. As I type this at 10:49 pm more sockeye will be drawing their final breath in the bottom of an illegal drift boat. I feel at this time helpless to help them.
It has been another long day as the Sockeye Wars continue, by the way I must pick up the book with that title. Until tomorrow good night.
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yes orders from above
don't rock the boat and blame the water
do you think global acctually had any one investigating their story
or did they just tow the dfo line
remember a large part of globals revenue comes from government
advertising
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Read the article in The Vancover Sun today, more denial by FOC and poor reporting. It seems the only way to get the truth out is through FWR and other fishing forums. No one would answer Bill's letter, a copy posted on FWR. A gag order directive is now on for all but the top staff and they will talk to only who they can buffallo, that is the media. For example Savard said to the reporter and I quote "he said he had discussed the matter with his staff and had been told while there has been some issues, some potential violations in the Cheam areas, and interaction and discussion with the Cheam, but to the best of my understanding, they were not chased off the water as Mr Otway is indicating".
What a bunch of hogwash as we obtain the complete opposite but of course off the record from some inside information.
Also check the Observe and Report line Mr. Savard as you will see numerous compliants and reports of the illegal fishing the last few weeks. You should be a shamed of yourself Mr. Savard for not looking after our fish, stop blaming the hot water conditions and every thing but the truth.
The one positive is, if you can call it a positive is a number of FOC staff read these forums and they know we know what is really going on.This does not help the fish though.To bad they only lurk but if they dared to post what they really know they would be on the unemployement line.
Too bad as in a what I believe is supposed to be a democratic society this is allowed to go on.
Bite the bullet Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Federal Government, things will get a lot worse before it gets better as our society and the fish continue to suffer because of inaction.
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Bite the bullet Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Federal Government, things will get a lot worse before it gets better as our society and the fish continue to suffer because of inaction.
worse than CN rail spilling chemicals into the squish? worse than the clear cutting of trees in the past destroying salmon streams?
personally i'm bothered by the materialism in our non-native society and the go-go mentality at all costs...if we want the indians to slow down on fishing maybe we should slowdown in our own material consumption too...like did we really need to have the spend the money on the 2010 olympics?
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Bite the bullet Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Federal Government, things will get a lot worse before it gets better as our society and the fish continue to suffer because of inaction.
worse than CN rail spilling chemicals into the squish? worse than the clear cutting of trees in the past destroying salmon streams?
personally i'm bothered by the materialism in our non-native society and the go-go mentality at all costs...if we want the indians to slow down on fishing maybe we should slowdown in our own material consumption too...like did we really need to have the spend the money on the 2010 olympics?
I have to agree on the logging thing you posted but were the two CNR derailments perventable?
As for the non native society I agree we are driven by materialism but most of the native society is driven the same way. Look at the trucks they are carrying their totes in now a days, far better vehicles than I can aford or would want. I do not think we or they will take step back to the old times.
Maybe we will and go and build a cabin and survive off the land by our wits. Wow, no computers, cel phone, micro waves, DVD players, home entertainment centers, SVU's with air conditioning that is pulling a jet boat, your favorite pub to down a pint or two, planes to travel across the world in afew hours and the list could go on.
Sounds inviting doesn't it.. ;D ;D ;D