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Author Topic: The HST vote - making a decision  (Read 124996 times)

Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #270 on: July 06, 2011, 07:51:28 AM »

Got the ballot yesterday, in the mail today.


Mine came too.

I wonder if the amazing swami or the magic 8 ball can predict how I voted? ;D ;D ;D
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chris gadsden

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #271 on: July 06, 2011, 10:08:31 AM »

'Creating Jobs' Is Biggest HST Con Job Yet
There's scant evidence the $2 billion tax shift onto families will create more pay cheques.

By Jim Sinclair, Today, TheTyee.ca

 
 
HST backers make varying and unproven claims for employment growth.



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Problems with BC Business Council's Pro-HST Study
How can conclusions be true when based on data with such serious shortcomings?

Pro-HST Economist Defends His BC Business Council Study
Kesselman says Clark's 'fix' cuts too deep, fires back at Schreck critique in Tyee.

Secrets of the HST Referendum
What the BC gov't won't tell you about the tax and who's behind the campaign pushing it.

 

    When B.C.'s big businesses heard about the HST they couldn't believe their ears. The Liberal government would get the public to pay $2 billion more in taxes so business could have another $2 billion annually in annual tax cuts. It was just too good to be true. But the Liberals and business groups knew they couldn't sell the tax to British Columbians with that argument. So government and corporations have spent millions telling us the HST is really about creating new jobs and we should support it for that reason.

But what if it won't create a single new job? What if the HST only represents the biggest tax shift ever seen in British Columbia -- where a $2 billion tax burden is transferred each and every year from businesses onto ordinary working families and individuals?

If the latter is true -- and analyses by the B.C. Federation of Labour have reached this conclusion -- then it's doubly bad for British Columbians and for working people.

And that's why we should vote YES to scrap the HST in the referendum now underway.

Throwing around loose job numbers

The B.C. Liberals and their corporate backers want us to believe lots of new jobs will be created by the HST -- though they're not sure how many.

In March 2010, the B.C. Liberal government paid $14,000 for a study written by Jack Mintz, the University of Calgary professor and long-time advocate of corporate tax cuts. Mintz claimed "a net increase of 113,000 jobs" would occur over the next decade if B.C. kept the HST.

A few months later, Gordon Campbell, the former premier, threw that number out the window. Speaking in November 2010 at the Union of B.C. Municipalities convention, Campbell confessed that the HST might produce only 50,000 new jobs.

And this past May, yet another government-commissioned report said that even Campbell's much-reduced figure was too optimistic. Chaired by Jim Dinning, a former Progressive Conservative cabinet minister in Alberta, the so-called "independent panel" concluded that as few as 24,400 "more jobs" would be created under the HST, as opposed to what would happen if B.C. went back to the old Provincial Sales Tax.

Like the earlier numbers of 113,000 and 50,000, the new Dinning figure of 24,400 was spread over a 10-year period.

The Harmonized Sales Tax, in other words, might -- possibly -- create an average of 200 jobs a month over the next decade. That sounds good, but B.C.'s population is above 4.5 million, and our labour force is about 2.5 million people. While we shouldn't sneeze at a couple of hundred new jobs every 30 days or so, who knows if that tiny number is reasonable to expect from the HST? And even if it did happen, the public cost over the same period works out to $833,000 per new job created. Surely we could create jobs at a lower cost.

Big business saves big

Reducing the tax burden on corporations -- a decade-long mission for Gordon Campbell, Christy Clark and the B.C. Liberals -- is the main focus of B.C.'s Harmonized Sales Tax.

Indeed, while the Campbell-Clark government is uncertain as to how many new jobs the HST will create, they're definite about the benefits awaiting their industrial and business supporters.

Companies in the construction sector annually will save under the HST -- and, the following numbers were provided by the Liberal government -- $880 million.

Transportation firms now will keep the $210 million that they used to pay in sales taxes each year -- taxes that helped to pay for health and education, the justice system and, oh, yes, the roads and bridges used by trucking companies.

B.C.'s manufacturing and forestry sectors each will save $140 million year after year.

Corporations involved in mining, oil and gas will see their annual tax bills reduced by $80 million, and all B.C. businesses together will enjoy yearly "administrative savings" of another $150 million.

All told, big B.C. companies will pay $2 billion less in sales taxes each year, every year, with the shortfall made up by families and individuals paying the HST.

Let's be clear: the HST is a great windfall, a giant bonanza for big corporations.

But will the HST even create the paltry 200 jobs every month for the next 10 years?

To answer these questions, we merely have to look at the recent past.

Corporate tax cuts have not delivered jobs

Thirty years ago, in 1980, the number of British Columbians with a job (full-time and part-time) stood at 1,266,400. By last year, 2010, that number had grown to 2,256,500.

It's easy to calculate job creation over the last three decades: we only have to subtract the former number from the latter. By doing so, it becomes evident that the number of new jobs created in B.C. over the last 30 years was 990,100.

That works out to an annual average of 33,000.

It's reasonable to think the pace of job creation has quickened in recent years. After all, a decade ago, immediately after winning election to government, Gordon Campbell, Christy Clark and their B.C. Liberal colleagues ruthlessly slashed corporate taxes with the stated aim of stimulating the provincial economy.

So, how many new jobs were created in the last five years under the B.C. Liberals?

In 2005, the number of British Columbians who were employed (full-time and part-time) was 2,091,900. And, as stated earlier, in 2010 there were 2,256,500 people with a job.

We can see, after subtracting the former number from the latter, that 164,600 new jobs were created over the last five years.

That's an annual average of almost 33,000 per year.

In other words, the average number of new jobs created over the last five years, 33,000, is identical to the average number created over the last 30 years.

Exactly what, therefore, were the benefits British Columbians received from the B.C. Liberals' decade-long tax-cutting spree?

HST fits long pattern of tax cuts for business

Days before we vote in the HST referendum and either accept or reject a massive, $2 billion tax-shift from businesses to families and individuals, we should re-examine the array of business tax cuts the Campbell-Clark Liberals have instituted over the last decade.

In the summer of 2001, weeks after winning the general election, the B.C. Liberals slashed the corporation income tax rate from 16.5 per cent, to 13.5 per cent. It stands today, after four further reductions, at an even 10 per cent. The revenues lost to the provincial treasury from these corporate income cuts: approximately $650 million, each and every year.

The corporation capital tax also was narrowed and reduced in 2001, and then abolished entirely in 2009. At one time it generated more than $400 million annually.

The sales tax was removed from production machinery and equipment in 2001 at a cost of $160 million, each and every year. That exemption was expanded in 2002, at a further cost to the provincial treasury of $15 million annually.

In 2008, the B.C. Liberals slashed the school-tax rate for large industries, and in 2009 they provided a new tax credit for major industrial and light industrial properties. The former move cost the provincial treasury $24 million annually; the latter, $52 million.

Space does not permit an exhaustive listing of all the tax cuts and reductions handed over to the business sector by the B.C. Liberals over the last 10 years. The list is lengthy and costly.

$12 billion already given away, for what?

The B.C. Federation of Labour has prepared an analysis that calculates revenue losses for the provincial treasury since 2001 from reductions in the corporation income tax rate alone at between $7.7 billion and $8.5 billion.

The total cost of all of the B.C. Liberal corporate tax cuts over the last decade may only be estimated; it almost certainly is no less than $12 billion.

Again, what did British Columbians get for this massive expenditure? We clearly didn't gain the new jobs as promised, because the B.C. Liberals' record on job creation over the last five years has been no better or different than the provincial average since 1980.

Despite spending billions of dollars on corporate tax cuts, the B.C. Liberals created no more jobs in the last decade than did Social Credit in the 1980s or the New Democratic Party in the 1990s.

The Harmonized Sales Tax is yet another in a long, long string of corporate tax cuts instituted by Gordon Campbell, Christy Clark and the B.C. Liberals over the last 10 years.

Their earlier tax cuts created nary a single new job, so why would reasonable, rational people expect anything different from the HST?

British Columbians should vote YES in the HST referendum -- YES to get rid of the HST, YES to stop the massive, $2 billion tax shift from corporations onto working families, and YES for tax fairness.

And, let's start thinking about how to create new, decent paying jobs.

chris gadsden

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #272 on: July 06, 2011, 10:14:01 AM »

I think this will change AF position on the HST. ;D ;D ;D

alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #273 on: July 06, 2011, 10:39:50 AM »

I think this will change AF position on the HST. ;D ;D ;D

I can't believe I just spent 5 minutes of my life reading another Tyee article. Those are 5 minutes of my life that I will never get back.....  Thanks for that, Chris.   :'(

It's too bad you didn't post this yesterday. I mailed my ballot in this morning..... 

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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #274 on: July 06, 2011, 10:48:00 AM »

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/07/05/HSTSecrets/


"Where secrecy or mystery begins, vice or roguery is not far off." -- Samuel Johnson

There are many things powerful people want to make sure you never know about the Harmonized Sales Tax binding referendum now underway.

What is the total budget of the pro-HST Smart Tax Alliance? $15 million?

They won't tell you. But it could be more than the $12 million the BC Liberals spent in the 2009 election. And over double the $6 million B.C.'s New Democrats spent.

That big business group is buying expensive television, print, radio and Internet advertising, paying for automated "robo" calls to millions of voters and hiring spin doctors galore.

That's on top of the more than $5 million the B.C. government is spending to promote the HST.
Vancouver Pride 2011

But you will never know what the Smart Tax Alliance spent -- because Premier Christy Clark made sure of it.

Believe it or not, there are no third party financial spending disclosure rules for this referendum. None.

You can read who spent how much in both the 2005 and 2009 electoral system referenda -- but you won't be able to on this one.

How much did the Coal Association of Canada donate to the Smart Tax Alliance? The Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers? The Canadian Energy Pipeline Association? The Insurance Bureau of Canada? Other business groups?

And why?

They are all Smart Tax Alliance members, but you won't ever know unless they voluntarily decide to tell us -- fat chance, especially before voting takes place.

Nor are there rules requiring referendum advertising to identify who authorized it or how to contact them. The BC Liberal government chose not to demand it.

These regulations are essential parts of any B.C. election or referendum, but have gone missing this time.

So the Smart Tax Alliance can completely avoid voter scrutiny before and after the ballot.

That stinks. Badly.

Won't 'save us all money'

Did you know that the HST won't instantly become 10 per cent if you vote "No" to keep it?

It would only become 10 per cent if the BC Liberal government still exists in 2014 and keeps its promises, first to cut the HST to 11 per cent in July 2012, and then to 10 per cent in July 2014.

But government and Smart Tax Alliance ads don't mention that key fact.

"To lower the HST from 12 per cent to 10 per cent vote NO," a June 17 government print ad says -- with no reference to when or how.

A Smart Tax Alliance TV ad featuring cherry orchardist Christine Dendy boldly states: "And now the decrease in the HST from 12 per cent to 10 per cent saves us all money."

But there hasn't been a decrease. And no, it doesn't save us all money.

You still have to pay a full seven per cent more on hundreds of goods and services like restaurant food, basic telephone and cable, home repairs and maintenance, domestic air flights and much more that you never had to pay under the previous combined PST and GST.

Even if you believe the BC Liberal government, which broke its word over and over about the HST, will really reduce the rate to 11 per cent and then 10 per cent three years from now, you will still pay an extra five per cent on all those items that you never did before.

It won't "save us all money" -- unless business passes on 90 per cent of its savings to consumers -- which is what the government claims will happen.

And most big businesses in B.C. don't produce consumer goods you buy -- so their savings on exported aluminum, forest products, coal and copper will go to their pockets, not yours.

The HST also won't save you money, unless you don't have to ever repair your roof or do significant renovations. Or unless you don't spend much money going out for dinner and a show or travelling or on and on and on.

Did you also know that government ads saying the 10 per cent HST is "law" are completely misleading?

"We want people to know if they vote to keep the HST that the reduction will take place by law," Clark claimed last month.

But the "law" is simply a federal Order-In-Council approved by the federal Conservative cabinet, not a vote by Parliament.

And it could be just as easily rescinded with only a signature.

Besides, B.C. has a fixed election date law setting the next provincial election for May 14, 2013 -- but Christy Clark can easily change that law and has repeatedly talked about holding a vote long before then.

The BC Liberals also repealed their own "balanced budget" law when they went deeply into the red ink. This is a government with laws to be broken.

Inaccurate and unfair

The HST Referendum Voters Guide mailed to British Columbians with the views of both Fight HST and the Smart Tax Alliance, as well as the so-called "Independent Panel" of experts on the tax was sent out before the Clark government announced additional HST rebates and proposed a future reduced rate.

That means the expensive mailing was both inaccurate and unfair -- since the registered proponent opposing the HST had no way to respond in the one flyer going to every British Columbian.

But the government has spent more than $5 million on misleading "stick man" and other advertising to promote its position.

You can choose to disregard my views -- as a Fight HST founder, I've opposed this tax from the beginning.

But I'm not paid to do so, and I don't have a multi-million dollar ad campaign trying to mislead you. The other side does.

Before you vote on the HST, ask why there is no disclosure of spending despite a massive pro-HST campaign, why standard election financing rules were dropped, why there is no requirement for government or corporate advertising to be truthful or even authorized by an official agent.

Ask the business members of the Smart Tax Alliance how much money they are spending and who is giving it to them.

But you won't get an answer. Just more ads supporting the HST. [Tyee]
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chris gadsden

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #275 on: July 06, 2011, 11:22:34 AM »

I can't believe I just spent 5 minutes of my life reading another Tyee article. Those are 5 minutes of my life that I will never get back.....  Thanks for that, Chris.   :'(

It's too bad you didn't post this yesterday. I mailed my ballot in this morning..... 


Thats OK we will win by a large majority so your vote will not matter.  ;D ;D

While I am at Toronto will win the Cup this coming season.  ::) ;D

alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #276 on: July 06, 2011, 11:45:43 AM »

Thats OK we will win by a large majority so your vote will not matter.  ;D ;D

While I am at Toronto will win the Cup this coming season.  ::) ;D

Reminds me of a joke:   (Any mention of the Leafs reminds me of a joke......)  ;D  ;D

A man met a fairy who offered to grant him 1 wish. The man thought carefully and said; "I want to live forever!"

"Sorry.....  I can grant you any wish you want, just not a wish to live forever" said the fairy.

"Fine" he replied, and with no hesitation at all said; " I want to die after the Toronto Maple Leafs win the Stanley cup!"

"You crafty little bugger!" said the fairy.
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chris gadsden

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #277 on: July 06, 2011, 06:05:15 PM »

I see AF friends now want to make up for their proposed reduction in the HST in two years time by backing another hike in 2 cents a litre of gas to pay for th Evergreen Line. They never seem to stop rasing our taxes in one form or another. ::)

alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #278 on: July 06, 2011, 06:21:31 PM »

I think you may need to drive to Vancouver and fill your gas tank there if you want to take advantage of this tax....
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roeman

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #279 on: July 06, 2011, 08:41:31 PM »

They never seem to stop rasing our taxes in one form or another. ::)

19 pages and finally the truth is told.
Does it matter if it comes out of your left or right pocket.
They will still  take it one way or another.
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #280 on: July 07, 2011, 06:12:40 AM »

I see AF friends now want to make up for their proposed reduction in the HST in two years time by backing another hike in 2 cents a litre of gas to pay for th Evergreen Line. They never seem to stop rasing our taxes in one form or another. ::)

We also need to fund David Hahn's $347,000 a year pension. Pigs at a trough.....
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #281 on: July 07, 2011, 08:30:04 AM »

'Creating Jobs' Is Biggest HST Con Job Yet
There's scant evidence the $2 billion tax shift onto families will create more pay cheques.

By Jim Sinclair, Today, TheTyee.ca



Here's an opinion on the HST from another union guy.

Jim Stanford, the respected Canadian Auto Workers economist and Globe and Mail columnist, had some good things to say about Ontario's HST in an analysis he did. The union didn't come out and support the tax but Mr. Stanford recommended the CAW stay out of the protest against the HST in Ontario.

Mr. Stanford said the introduction of the HST in Ontario was not a “tax grab” and was “more efficient and less harmful than the PST.” He said it was “spreading the sales tax burden across all sectors” of the economy.  http://hstjobs.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/hst_stanford_2009letter.pdf
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DavidD

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #282 on: July 07, 2011, 04:43:09 PM »

http://hstjobs.ca/news/hstreferendumbc/

DRIVERS OF BC’S ECONOMY SAY PST-GST WILL HURT JOB GROWTH AND FAMILIES

In a rare display of solidarity, groups representing every sector of the B.C. economy came together today to make an impassioned case for the modern 10% HST and to warn of the risk to jobs, families, and the economy if British Columbia goes back to a 12% PST-GST.

Peter Leitch, Smart Tax Alliance Co-Chair and chair of the Motion Picture Production Industry Association of B.C., introduced leaders from all parts of B.C.’s economy. “Together, these groups represent members that employ more than 80 per cent of B.C.’s workforce,” said Leitch.

John Allan, President and CEO of the Council for Forest Industries for B.C. noted the importance of his industry in British Columbia: “Our members run about 100 facilities in more than 60 forest dependent communities. More than 150 thousand families directly and indirectly depend on our member companies for their livelihood and well-being.”

“HST opponents are fighting for a higher tax that hurts our industry and the tens of thousands of families who depend on it. Let’s do what’s right for B.C. and Vote ‘NO’ to keep the HST,” said Allan.

Judy Guichon, President of the British Columbia Cattlemen’s Association spoke to another critical part of the B.C. economy: “Agriculture puts food on the table for 35,000 agriculture workers across B.C. and another 30,000 people in the food processing sector. The new lower 10% HST plan is making the B.C. agriculture industry more competitive.”

Leitch urged voters to reject the anti-HST arguments: “In my industry, if you brought a script with as many plot holes as the anti-HST folks have, you wouldn’t get past the studio gate.”

“Together, everyone in this room wants to create jobs. That’s why we are encouraging all British Columbians to join us in voting NO to the PST-GST,” added Guichon.
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DavidD

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #283 on: July 07, 2011, 04:54:15 PM »


Quote
I see AF friends now want to make up for their proposed reduction in the HST in two years time by backing another hike in 2 cents a litre of gas to pay for th Evergreen Line.

Chris - How can you compare what the local city mayors relunctantly (???) did in order to raise monies for a very long overdue public transit extention (albeit - they could have selected a less expensive model) with that of the reduction proposal.  This is something Bill or Chris D would say...  :o

Sidebar - I'm NOT in favor of the 2 cents gas tax increase.  I would like to see the public transit user bear some of the costs - but that would raise yet another can of worms - perchance a future debate  :D
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #284 on: July 07, 2011, 05:07:54 PM »

http://hstjobs.ca/news/hstreferendumbc/

DRIVERS OF BC’S ECONOMY SAY PST-GST WILL HURT JOB GROWTH AND FAMILIES

In a rare display of solidarity, groups representing every sector of the B.C. economy came together today to make an impassioned case for the modern 10% HST and to warn of the risk to jobs, families, and the economy if British Columbia goes back to a 12% PST-GST.

Peter Leitch, Smart Tax Alliance Co-Chair and chair of the Motion Picture Production Industry Association of B.C., introduced leaders from all parts of B.C.’s economy. “Together, these groups represent members that employ more than 80 per cent of B.C.’s workforce,” said Leitch.

John Allan, President and CEO of the Council for Forest Industries for B.C. noted the importance of his industry in British Columbia: “Our members run about 100 facilities in more than 60 forest dependent communities. More than 150 thousand families directly and indirectly depend on our member companies for their livelihood and well-being.”

“HST opponents are fighting for a higher tax that hurts our industry and the tens of thousands of families who depend on it. Let’s do what’s right for B.C. and Vote ‘NO’ to keep the HST,” said Allan.

Judy Guichon, President of the British Columbia Cattlemen’s Association spoke to another critical part of the B.C. economy: “Agriculture puts food on the table for 35,000 agriculture workers across B.C. and another 30,000 people in the food processing sector. The new lower 10% HST plan is making the B.C. agriculture industry more competitive.”

Leitch urged voters to reject the anti-HST arguments: “In my industry, if you brought a script with as many plot holes as the anti-HST folks have, you wouldn’t get past the studio gate.”

“Together, everyone in this room wants to create jobs. That’s why we are encouraging all British Columbians to join us in voting NO to the PST-GST,” added Guichon.


This article says "every sector of the B.C. economy" supports the HST...   Apparently the sector that Novabonker operates in, isn't part of the BC economy.  ;D  ;D
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