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Author Topic: The HST vote - making a decision  (Read 125063 times)

Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #210 on: June 30, 2011, 06:02:42 AM »

Here's the latest from StatsCanada. BC has the second lowest rate of inflation in Canada. That means our prices have risen the second least, in spite of the HST.

Looks like those rich businesses are not pocketing the savings... they are actually passing them on to the consumer.

May 2011 12 month inflation rates:

Canada 3.7
Newfoundland and Labrador 3.7
Prince Edward Island 3.9
Nova Scotia 4.6
New Brunswick 4.1
Quebec 3.5
Ontario 4.0
Manitoba 3.9
Saskatchewan 3.4
Alberta 2.8
British Columbia 3.1

And what prices have you seen come down? And since you\re reading stats- look back some months beforehand and see where BC was in relation to the rest of the pack . eems BC and Ontario had the highest rate .Nice try, but lacking. The NO side is starting to sound desperate......



AND YOU GUYS BETTER LAY OFF KESSELMAN! THAT MAN IS A GAWD! HE"S NEVER MANIPULATED DATA TO SUIT HIS VIEWS! HE'S NEVER BEEN WRONG! and he got paid how many thousands of dollars for a couple of pages of codswallop?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 06:16:54 AM by Novabonker »
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #211 on: June 30, 2011, 07:40:41 AM »

Jealousy will get you nowhere....  

Did you know that the top 20% of income earners in Canada pay 80% of the income taxes?

In the US the top 20% pay 88% of the income taxes. The top 50% pay 97% of the income taxes.

Apparently the bottom 80% of the income earners want the rich to pay all the taxes?

But what does that have to do with the HST discussion?

AF?



Oh - don't forget the carbon tax takes another bite out of the wallet tomorrow.

Unhappy Birthday to the HST - no happy returns!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 08:06:07 AM by Novabonker »
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #212 on: June 30, 2011, 08:23:38 AM »

And since you\re reading stats- look back some months beforehand and see where BC was in relation to the rest of the pack . eems BC and Ontario had the highest rate .

Looking back at inflation results means nothing. Current inflation rates and trends is the only inflation rates that are relevant.

Of course if we elect another NDP government we have the opportunity to be number 10 again like we were from 1992 - 2000.  Chanting "We're number 10! We're number 10!" just doesn't have the same ring as saying "We're number 2"!   ;D

Real Per Capita GDP Growth 1992 - 2000

    Nfld: 33.6%
    SK: 27.3%
    AB: 27%
    ON: 24.2%
    PQ: 22.3%
    NB: 21.6%
    PEI: 18.6%
    MB: 17.5%
    NS: 16.2%
    BC: 5.3%

    [Source: Statistics Canada, Provincial Economic Accounts, February, 2000.)
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JAwrey

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #213 on: June 30, 2011, 10:04:40 AM »

Gonna hop in once again, and propose a theory...

I believe that the reason AF and NB are debating so completely is that they are both rational, intelligent people and the statements that they make are transparent reflections of their experiences.  The things they have said, however deeply rooted in personal experience they may be, are coming from entirely different worlds: AF from his financial management background, NB from his entrepreneurial background.  As a disclaimer, I am not implying at any point that one is superior in stance or in vocation.

I suppose this is part of the issue of the HST, isn't it?  NB goes to work everyday, delivering a quality product/service that has, in the past, always provided him with ample customer traffic.  However, after the initiation of the HST, he has seen a noticeable drop in the number of families he services - only a fool wouldn't notice this correlation!  Conversely, AF views the numbers and statistics as he has been trained to do, and always has.  He can see the numbers in front of his face, and they say that this HST is a good thing!  So...er...who's right?

Could it be that...both are???  *Gasp*  :o

Perhaps this magical tax has both a negative impact on the entrepreneur in addition to a positive impact on the "big picture".  Perhaps this is what we should be discussing - whether we value one more than another, or whether we are not striking the balance between the two.

Just my thoughts,
Don't kill me...

John
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #214 on: June 30, 2011, 10:34:55 AM »

Gonna hop in once again, and propose a theory...

I believe that the reason AF and NB are debating so completely is that they are both rational, intelligent people and the statements that they make are transparent reflections of their experiences.  The things they have said, however deeply rooted in personal experience they may be, are coming from entirely different worlds: AF from his financial management background, NB from his entrepreneurial background.  As a disclaimer, I am not implying at any point that one is superior in stance or in vocation.

I suppose this is part of the issue of the HST, isn't it?  NB goes to work everyday, delivering a quality product/service that has, in the past, always provided him with ample customer traffic.  However, after the initiation of the HST, he has seen a noticeable drop in the number of families he services - only a fool wouldn't notice this correlation!  Conversely, AF views the numbers and statistics as he has been trained to do, and always has.  He can see the numbers in front of his face, and they say that this HST is a good thing!  So...er...who's right?

Could it be that...both are???  *Gasp*  :o

Perhaps this magical tax has both a negative impact on the entrepreneur in addition to a positive impact on the "big picture".  Perhaps this is what we should be discussing - whether we value one more than another, or whether we are not striking the balance between the two.

Just my thoughts,
Don't kill me...

John

Hate guys that agree with me, but side with the other guy as well!  ;D

You make some good points and sounds like you have objectively done your homework. I just hope that like you, people totally understand what they are voting for before they mark their ballot.

Although I see people becoming more rational as they learn more about the 2 choices, most of the people that are adamantly against the HST, are basing their decision on: Campbell is a liar, Campbell introduced the HST, therefore the HST = "BAD".

We have the second lowest income tax rate in Canada, thanks to the Campbell government. Can you imagine if people used the following logic: Campbell is a liar, Campbell introduced lower income taxes, therefore lower income taxes = "BAD".

We have the second strongest economy in Canada, coming back from the worst economy in Canada under the NDP. Can you imagine if people used the following logic: Campbell is a liar, Campbell turned our economy from #10 in Canada to #2 in Canada, therefore being #2 in economic growth = "BAD".

You get my point.....
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JAwrey

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #215 on: June 30, 2011, 10:57:37 AM »

Not old enough to vote  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
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Sandman

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #216 on: June 30, 2011, 08:06:28 PM »

Hate guys that agree with me, but side with the other guy as well!  ;D

You make some good points and sounds like you have objectively done your homework. I just hope that like you, people totally understand what they are voting for before they mark their ballot.

Although I see people becoming more rational as they learn more about the 2 choices, most of the people that are adamantly against the HST, are basing their decision on: Campbell is a liar, Campbell introduced the HST, therefore the HST = "BAD".

We have the second lowest income tax rate in Canada, thanks to the Campbell government. Can you imagine if people used the following logic: Campbell is a liar, Campbell introduced lower income taxes, therefore lower income taxes = "BAD".

We have the second strongest economy in Canada, coming back from the worst economy in Canada under the NDP. Can you imagine if people used the following logic: Campbell is a liar, Campbell turned our economy from #10 in Canada to #2 in Canada, therefore being #2 in economic growth = "BAD".

You get my point.....

While Campbell's Liberals have proudly claimed responsibility for BC's economic recovery, what they can be truly proud of is the way their policies have also created the greatest gap between the rich and the poor right here in BC.   Their policies have seen to it that the richest in BC have benefited the most from this recovery, while the poorest of us have only fallen further behind.  The HST, like their other tax policies, will only see this gap deepen. That will be their legacy.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #217 on: June 30, 2011, 09:39:51 PM »

While Campbell's Liberals have proudly claimed responsibility for BC's economic recovery, what they can be truly proud of is the way their policies have also created the greatest gap between the rich and the poor right here in BC.   Their policies have seen to it that the richest in BC have benefited the most from this recovery, while the poorest of us have only fallen further behind.  The HST, like their other tax policies, will only see this gap deepen. That will be their legacy.

I'm sure you can do a little better than repeating a bunch of NDP rhetoric!  Why don't you at least post a link to the NDP website? It would give some credibility to what you posted.  ???

If you took the time to understand the HST you would realize that the people that actually benefit from the HST are the poor and the elderly. They receive the HST credits and they don't buy many things that HST is charged on. The rich are the hardest hit by the HST because they don't get any credits and they buy lots of stuff that they pay HST on.

If it wasn't for the rich, there would be a lot more poor! Simple economics. Without rich people investing money into businesses, no jobs would be created. No jobs means no incomes, which usually results in poverty.

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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #218 on: July 01, 2011, 07:26:14 AM »

I'm sure you can do a little better than repeating a bunch of NDP rhetoric!  Why don't you at least post a link to the NDP website? It would give some credibility to what you posted.  ???

Fraser Institute bovine scatology??????

If you took the time to understand the HST you would realize that the people that actually benefit from the HST are the poor and the elderly. They receive the HST credits and they don't buy many things that HST is charged on. The rich are the hardest hit by the HST because they don't get any credits and they buy lots of stuff that they pay HST on.

It's always good to hit the middle class for more money to give to faceless corporations. ::)The people that benefit the most are already well off.The rich have the most.And BTW- I guess you didn't read how the "tax breaks" don't keep pace with the tax fingers. But you knew that already....

If it wasn't for the rich, there would be a lot more poor! Simple economics. Without rich people investing money into businesses, no jobs would be created. No jobs means no incomes, which usually results in poverty.

Already we have one of the lowest corporate tax rates in North America and the world. Gifting another 2 billion to business on the backs of the public is greed gone wild.If it wasn't for the poor, there would be a lot more rich. Crappy paying jobs and overtaxing the working families also results in poverty. And your theory is so full of holes it's beyond sad- we have and still have the highest child poverty rate in the country and lead in seniors poverty as well. But we've got money for corporate tax goodies. Does that instill a sense of pride in my province?




You refuse to see or even acknowledge the carnage the HST has created in some small business's. I talked to another poster here AND HIS NUMBERS ARE OFF AS WELL, same story from a supplier, since the introduction. Since we're small business, there isn't any corporate welfare of government lolly, just less money, reducing hours or laying off employees we've spent time and effort in training, expansion plans put on hold and lives disrupted.

I readily admit to calling Campbell a liar- in fact, look at the Liberal record. You could fertilize the entire Fraser Valley with the broken promises and outright lies they've flung around. It comes down to a simple matter of trust and respect. I (and a few others with a stronger sense of morals) don't respect or trust liars OF ANY POLITICAL STRIPE and you seem amazed about that. Do you accept that from your business colleagues? Why?
I don't expect an answer as you skate away when things don't suit your purpose.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 08:24:18 AM by Novabonker »
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #219 on: July 01, 2011, 10:15:35 AM »

It is impossible for government to put tax policy in place that meets with everyone's approval. Government's responsibility is to strike a balance between generating the revenue it needs, while ensuring that overall economic growth is enhanced.

While I sympathize with anyone experiencing some hardship as a result of the introduction of the HST, I know that for the vast majority of businesses in BC, the HST is a breath of fresh air as it allows them to be more competitive with businesses outside of BC. The poorest individuals are not negatively effected, and the middle class and rich can afford it. When the HST is reduced to 10% it will have a positive effect on virtually everyone.

It would be illogical to implement a tax policy designed to support a minority of businesses that are experiencing slow downs as a result of the HST at the expense of the majority of businesses.  Unfortunately the PST system has been doing that. The PST has been hurting BC businesses by making them less competitive on a global basis.

All I have heard from the anti-HST crowd is attacks on the HST that were based on; "I hate Campbell and the Liberals" and  "It hurts me, that's all that matters" .

I have always looked at the HST with a "What is best for BC" perspective. 

Yes, the government could have done a better job in introducing the HST and the HST is costing me more money.....  But in the end I support the HST because in my study of the tax, I am convinced that it is a better tax policy than the previous PST policy. My posts have all the reasons why I reached that conclusion.

Happy voting!   :)
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Sandman

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #220 on: July 01, 2011, 11:54:34 AM »

I'm sure you can do a little better than repeating a bunch of NDP rhetoric!  Why don't you at least post a link to the NDP website? It would give some credibility to what you posted.  ???

If you took the time to understand the HST you would realize that the people that actually benefit from the HST are the poor and the elderly. They receive the HST credits and they don't buy many things that HST is charged on. The rich are the hardest hit by the HST because they don't get any credits and they buy lots of stuff that they pay HST on.

If it wasn't for the rich, there would be a lot more poor! Simple economics. Without rich people investing money into businesses, no jobs would be created. No jobs means no incomes, which usually results in poverty.



yeah...nice try AF.  Trying to tie my comment to the NDP to try to discredit me is not fooling anyone.  My data comes from Statscan and has been quoted in every major newspaper in the country.  It is no secret who has benefited from the Liberal's "economic turnaround."  If business owners reinvested their profits into their workforce (in terms of better wages and benefits) then their would be more disposable income for the purchase of the product or service they are selling, further stimulating the economy.  THAT is simple economics.   However, the individual greed of the wealthy businessman to hoard as much of the profit as possible, has proven time and time again to outweigh any logical and reasonable economic incentive to redistribute that wealth.  This is why we need governments to tax the wealthy in the first place, since the rich are clearly not about to do so themselves, even though it would make economic sense to do so.  The bottom line is that the wealthy are only interested in making more wealth for themselves and any "economic" benefit to the poor is minimized to ensure they make as much as possible while keeping the system going.  This is not sustainable and is doom to fail. When 4% of the population controls 96% of the wealth, revolution is inevitable.
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Bavarian Raven

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #221 on: July 01, 2011, 12:24:17 PM »

Quote
However, the individual greed of the wealthy businessman to hoard as much of the profit as possible, has proven time and time again to outweigh any logical and reasonable economic incentive to redistribute that wealth.

You're making it sound like businessmen have an obligation to redistribute their wealth. They don't. It they want to give out some money to the poor or the such, power to them. Nothing wrong with being generous - when its done via free will. But they dont have an obligation to.

Quote
When 4% of the population controls 96% of the wealth, revolution is inevitable.

Lol. I"m sure that's what the russians were thinking too... look what that got them. A nice little communist state where things were just so pleasant /sarcasm. Anyone who knows anyone who lived, or has lived under the USSR or the such, will know that "redistributions of wealth" never end well. Basically, its a way for the less well off to steal from the more well off.
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #222 on: July 02, 2011, 06:45:10 AM »

Your morning read AF - This has to do with wealth distribution in Canada. Notice how the top quintile has increased while the bottom earners have decreased or stayed static. It was written by those famous communists at the TD bank. Note the vast amount held by a tiny percentage of the population. There's a TON more regarding the same thing I can dredge up easily. Now that the facts are in the open, your claim that wealth division is "NDP rhetoric" turns out to be be a lot of hot air and Fraser Institute cow cookies.

What's next? You build it, I'll tear it down with salient facts. ;) :o ;D

http://www.td.com/economics/special/dt1206_wealth.jsp

I noticed you sidestepped those little inconvenient facts about child and seniors poverty in your lavish praise of the Liebrals..... Any comment? Or just another exercise in skating away?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 06:54:23 AM by Novabonker »
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Novabonker

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« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 11:16:38 AM by Novabonker »
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #224 on: July 02, 2011, 11:19:08 AM »

yeah...nice try AF.  Trying to tie my comment to the NDP to try to discredit me is not fooling anyone.  My data comes from Statscan and has been quoted in every major newspaper in the country.  It is no secret who has benefited from the Liberal's "economic turnaround."  If business owners reinvested their profits into their workforce (in terms of better wages and benefits) then their would be more disposable income for the purchase of the product or service they are selling, further stimulating the economy.  THAT is simple economics.   However, the individual greed of the wealthy businessman to hoard as much of the profit as possible, has proven time and time again to outweigh any logical and reasonable economic incentive to redistribute that wealth.  This is why we need governments to tax the wealthy in the first place, since the rich are clearly not about to do so themselves, even though it would make economic sense to do so.  The bottom line is that the wealthy are only interested in making more wealth for themselves and any "economic" benefit to the poor is minimized to ensure they make as much as possible while keeping the system going.  This is not sustainable and is doom to fail. When 4% of the population controls 96% of the wealth, revolution is inevitable.

The problem with your whole premise of blaming the rich is you totally absolve the "poor" of any responsibility. There has always been rich and poor and there always will be rich and poor. The more you try and legislate a "sharing" of the wealth the more you will remove the incentive for all of society to excel. The end result is an over all poorer society. Human nature will always gravitate to the lowest common denominator.

There all all sorts of examples of this. Take a very controversial (to some) example of a union shop. Because of the "negotiated" contracts there is no incentive for an employee to excel because there is no reward for doing so. Peer pressure from the lowest producers causes the highest producers to cut back on their efforts so as to not show up the average or poor producers. Union rules usually prevent one class of employees from performing the duties of another class of employee. This creates a need for more employees and reduces efficiency of the organization. Productivity suffers and the business becomes mediocre.

We are all to a very large extent masters of our own destiny. Especially in a country like ours, everyone has a relatively equal opportunity to excel. Rather than focusing on the rich and how you can take away their hard earned and well deserved wealth to give to the poor, focus instead on why the poor are poor and the rich got rich?

Why don't the poor put the same effort into getting an education like the rich did? They have the same access. Student loans are more available to the poor than to the rich.

Why don't the poor save their money rather than spending every penny they earn. This would give them a pool of capital that they could invest and they could become rich as well.

Why don't the poor make sacrifices and invest their pool of capital into a start up business? Yes it could fail, but it could also be successful and make them rich.

There is no economic sense whatsoever to redistribute wealth!


All that does is create a poorer society by moving it closer to the lowest common denominator (poverty). It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for the rich to be taxed higher in order to give to the poor. The poor will just squander the money, they will not invest it. They won't create any jobs. Through their spending they may help the retail business sector in the short term, but over time the policy of redistributing wealth will make the rich poorer, resulting in fewer opportunities to tax them. There will be less investment, fewer jobs. etc, etc.  Society as a whole will become poorer.

As Bavarian Raven so succinctly wrote: "Basically, its a way for the less well off to steal from the more well off."  That's all we need; a society with more thieves!  ::)
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