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Author Topic: The HST vote - making a decision  (Read 125016 times)

alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #195 on: June 28, 2011, 10:06:46 PM »

Novabonker, don't be so sensitive. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

It's always important to know a little about the writer when judging what they say....   It's also important to give credit to the writer when quoting them in a post. The article Novabonker quoted was written by David Shreck, an NDP hack. His economics are questionable to say the least.

Here's a little about him from wikipedia: "David D. Schreck is a one-time Member of the Legislative Assembly in the province of British Columbia in Canada and a political pundit.

Schreck represented the riding of North Vancouver-Lonsdale from 1991 to 1996 for the New Democratic Party of British Columbia. He served as parliamentary secretary to the Premier and to a Minister of Employment and Investment.

He won the election in 1991 by half a percentage point (less than 500 votes) but lost his seat in the 1996 BC election, by more than 10 per cent of the vote, to Katherine Anne Whittred. Afterwards, Schreck failed to win a councillor's seat for the District of North Vancouver and declared he would not again run in a political election. His term as MLA was his only successful bid after tries in the 1983, 1986, and 1991 provincial elections and the 1984 federal election.

He publishes political commentary on his website, StrategicThoughts.com, and appears weekly on Victoria radio station CFAX with host Murray Langdon. His background is in economics. Schreck received a degree in that field from Grinnell College in 1969 and a Ph.D. from the University of British Columbia in 1978."

Take whatever he says with his political, rather than "economic" background in mind.


On the other hand Kesselman is a Professor at Simon Fraser University and is actually an economist!  Here's his biography from the Simon Fraser website: Jonathan R. Kesselman joined Simon Fraser University’s Public Policy Program in 2004, where he is a professor and holds the Canada Research Chair in Public Finance. From 1972 to 2003 he was a professor of economics at the University of British Columbia, and from 1992 to 2003 he served as director of the UBC Centre for Research on Economic and Social Policy. He was director and principal invesitgator of the SSHRC/MCRI project on "Equality/Security/Community." He has a B.A. (Hon.) from Oberlin College and a Ph.D. from M.I.T.

Professor Kesselman is a frequent commentator on issues of public finance, taxation, and economic policy. He has written widely on topics in taxation, income security, employment policy, and social insurance finance, including monographs on Financing Canadian Unemployment Insurance (1983), Rate Structure and Personal Taxation: Flat Rate or Dual Rate? (1990); General Payroll Taxes: Economics, Politics, and Design (1997); a C.D. Howe Institute study, A New Option for Retirement Savings: Tax-Prepaid Savings Plans (2001); a study for the Institute for Research on Public Policy, Tax Design for a Northern Tiger (2004), and a co-edited volume for UBC press, Dimensions of Inequality in Canada (2006). His research also appears in numerous articles in scholarly journals.

Professor Kesselman’s research has been recognized by the Reserve Bank of Australia’s Professorial Fellowship in Economic Policy (1985), the Doug Purvis Memorial Prize for Canadian economic policy research (1998 and 2007), and the Canadian Tax Foundation’s Douglas J. Sherbaniuk Distinguished Research Award (2002). He is a Research Fellow with the C.D. Howe Institute and serves on the editorial boards of Canadian Public Policy and the Canadian Tax Journal.

His research interests in recent years include the economics of tax avoidance and evasion, reform of the GST, finance of post-secondary education, the National Child Benefit, flat taxes, personal and business tax reform, First Nations taxation, federal and provincial payroll taxes, BC fiscal and taxation policies, the distributional impacts of taxes, the “brain drain,” mandatory retirement, income splitting and the basic income guarantee."

Who are you going to believe??
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StillAqua

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #196 on: June 29, 2011, 05:24:48 AM »

Did you know that the top 20% of income earners in Canada pay 80% of the income taxes?

Because they have 80% (or more) of the income? But I agree it has nothing to do with the HST.......
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StillAqua

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #197 on: June 29, 2011, 05:30:32 AM »

Take whatever he says with his political, rather than "economic" background in mind.

Who are you going to believe??

Actually AF, Schreck's analysis of the statistical uncertainties in the difference in difference method and CPI data Kesselman used to make his conclusions are quite valid. It's Kesselman who is using sloppy methods to support fishy conclusions for whatever personal reasons he has (wonder where he gets his research funding from?). He'd never get that analysis published in a peer reviewed economics journal.
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #198 on: June 29, 2011, 07:37:16 AM »

Really AF? So it's become personal- since you've insulted my career, my intellect, my morals and other things I shouldn't be surprised, but just disappointed.

Your morning read. A great rebuttal to Kesselman's codswallop:

http://ansak.blogspot.com/2010/04/hst-in-bc-jon-kesselman-asserts-i-rebut.html

HST in BC: Jon Kesselman asserts, I rebut
In the Vancouver Sun for today, Jon Kesselman wrote in support of the HST. I posted this to the digital edition of the paper but it doesn't seem to be sticking there, so I'm cross-posting it here:

Opponents of the HST are accused of being hysterical, ignorant and blindly acting in opposition to their own interests but such name-calling is not helping this debate in the least.

Decrying lack of transparency is not hysteria. Objecting to politicians turning 180 degrees from a not-very-well-publicized answer during a campaign is not hysteria. Alarm because governments are listening to some elite economists instead of the voters who sent them to Victoria is not hysteria.

Notwithstanding that Mr. Kesselman's remarks may be the last word in wisdom on the HST, the failure of the government to walk through this reasonably and transparently is serious enough that I will sign the petition and vote against the HST -- and in doing so, I will object in the strongest possible terms to anyone who calls it hysteria.

Fears that HST will drive more of the economy underground are well-founded. Whenever I deal with an independent contractor whose services are taxable under the GST, I still regularly get quoted a cash price -- clear evidence that collecting, tracking, paying and being rebated the GST is unacceptably burdensome to the lower end of the economy. The HST will only make this worse. If opposing HST can be construed as hysterical, cheerleading for it can just as easily be construed as naive and out of touch with ordinary folks. I don't see Mr. Kesselman dealing with that risk, at all.

As for the savings of business that will be passed along to the consumer once they begin to flow, did any of these savings result after the GST came in? I don't remember the price falling and I expect the businessmen to pocket the difference again when the HST arrives. That's what happens to savings passed along to all businesses at the same time. That may be cynical, but it's not hysteria.

PST, whatever its ills to B2B commerce in BC are, has the compassionate, enlightened, valuable exemptions on groceries, books, school supplies and childrens' clothes. GST has no such exemption -- one of the reasons I still oppose it -- and HST will not either. Maybe this exemption no longer has value to BC's families but if that's the case, they should come under public scrutiny and widespread debate before we turn and walk away from them. If opposing HST is hysterical, supporting it strongly can be construed as heartless, uncaring and ignorant of the needs of the least well-off families of the province.

Of course these families will receive HST rebates (which will, hopefully be at least twice what the GST rebates are now) but that requires the knowledge that the rebate should be applied for and the freedom to save up that rebate to apply to the no-longer-tax-exempt necessaries that need to be bought every week of the year. Anyone who knows such families understands how unreasonable it is to believe that this "no addded burden" for greater benefit. Unawareness of this segment of society isn't just heartless and uncompassionate, it's willfully so, and therefore an even more culpable condition.

Maybe HST is better for the province. The way the Liberals are bringing it in and imposing it on us is even more heavy-handed and anti-democratic than the introduction of the GST was under the over-sized majority enjoyed by the Mulroney government. If the government of British Columbia thinks this is such a good idea, the time to convince BCers of this is before negotiations with Ottawa began, not as the regimen is about to be imposed on us in a manner that is impossible to escape from for a period of five years.

This is not the mandate they earned in the last election -- in fact, given one (to my knowledge) campaign-trail answer before the last election, the mandate runs the other way. Scrap the HST and make sure we want you to bring it in or as surely as Bill Vander Zalm and the NDP are the most unlikely of political allies, I will sign this petition and vote to defeat the current HST when the question is put to me.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #199 on: June 29, 2011, 07:40:14 AM »

Actually AF, Schreck's analysis of the statistical uncertainties in the difference in difference method and CPI data Kesselman used to make his conclusions are quite valid. It's Kesselman who is using sloppy methods to support fishy conclusions for whatever personal reasons he has (wonder where he gets his research funding from?). He'd never get that analysis published in a peer reviewed economics journal.

I'm not qualified to debate this with you and if you provided your educational background we could also determine whether you are qualified to debate this....

My point was; Who are you going to believe? Shreck or Kesselman

Shreck: A political NDP hack who majored in economics back in 1969 and has spent the rest of his life working in various social services positions while  trying to make a career as a politician on both a federal, provincial and municipal level with limited success.

Kesselman: An individual who is not only educated as an economist, but has a long resume showing his entire career being dedicated to economics. He is recognized around the world for his knowledge in the field of taxation.

Knowing the background of the individuals does a lot in determining the credibility of their analysis.
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troutbreath

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #200 on: June 29, 2011, 07:43:36 AM »

I work at a University and can tell you that some instructors, especially business ones, just purchase their course material rather than try to develop it. They generally don't get to concerned about the content neither. Accounting is probably one area in the business program that actually is credible and consistant. The rest are harder to measure in terms of real outcomes. :-\
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #201 on: June 29, 2011, 07:47:23 AM »


Your morning read. A great rebuttal to Kesselman's codswallop:

http://ansak.blogspot.com/2010/04/hst-in-bc-jon-kesselman-asserts-i-rebut.html


Rather an old report wouldn't you say? A lot of changes to the HST since then....

The argument that the HST will drive more business under the table may be true. However the government still collects their HST because the contractor has paid the HST on the materials and cannot claim them as a rebate unless he declares the income. In the end the government may not get all their taxes, but they get more than under the PST.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #202 on: June 29, 2011, 08:03:22 AM »

Here's a list of countries around the world with HST/VAT style tax systems. Our 10% rate is pretty reasonable compared to most of these.

Think about all the stuff you see in the stores made in these countries - any wonder why they can produce such competitive products?

Hint - their HST style of tax helps them to be competitive and sell successfully into our markets.


Argentina 21%VAT
Brazil 17% - 25%VAT
Chile 19%VAT
Colombia 16%VAT
Venezuela 12%VAT

Austria 20%VAT
Belgium 21%VAT
Czech Republic 20%VAT
Denmark 25%VAT
Finland 23%VAT
France 19.6%VAT
Germany 19%VAT
Greece 23%VAT
Ireland 21%VAT
Italy 20%VAT
Netherlands 19%VAT
Norway 25%VAT
Spain 18%VAT
Sweden 25%VAT
Switzerland 8%VAT
United Kingdom 20%VAT

China 17%VAT
India 12.5%VAT
Indonesia 10%VAT
Japan 5%VAT
Philippines 12%VAT
Singapore 7%VAT
South Korea 10%VAT
Taiwan 5%VAT
Thailand 7%VAT

Ethiopia 15%VAT
Kenya 16%VAT
Morocco 20%VAT
Mozambique 17%VAT
Nigeria 5%VAT
South Africa 14%VAT
Sudan 10%VAT
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Easywater

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #203 on: June 29, 2011, 08:33:48 AM »

I was in Anchorage last week - 0% Federal/State sales tax.

I bought a lot of stuff.

As an aside, it was very refreshing to pay EXACTLY what was on the price tag.
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DavidD

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #204 on: June 29, 2011, 02:09:43 PM »

The only reason Alaska has a 0% sales tax is due to Oil/Gas revenue it gets:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/20/high-gas-prices-boon-alaska-budget/

Same as Alberta - which by the way won't last too much longer:

http://www.canada.com/news/Alberta+budget+shows+rising+tide/4342361/story.html

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StillAqua

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #205 on: June 29, 2011, 03:42:55 PM »

I'm not qualified to debate this with you and if you provided your educational background we could also determine whether you are qualified to debate this....

My point was; Who are you going to believe? Shreck or Kesselman
Knowing the background of the individuals does a lot in determining the credibility of their analysis.

It's a very simple stats issue that you should be able to understand AF.....if you took the effort to read both Kesselman's full report and Shreck's critique, you'd see the flaw in how Kesselman selected time periods to compare....his conclusion doesn't hold up when you look at the longer time series. Rather than relying on "reputations" as your sole source of knowledge, try using the old grey matter for yourself.
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StillAqua

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #206 on: June 29, 2011, 03:47:51 PM »

Here's a list of countries around the world with HST/VAT style tax systems. Our 10% rate is pretty reasonable compared to most of these.

Think about all the stuff you see in the stores made in these countries - any wonder why they can produce such competitive products?

Hint - their HST style of tax helps them to be competitive and sell successfully into our markets.

ROTFL...that's a hilarious conclusion......maybe it'll solve world hunger too!
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #207 on: June 29, 2011, 04:37:40 PM »

It's a very simple stats issue that you should be able to understand AF.....if you took the effort to read both Kesselman's full report and Shreck's critique, you'd see the flaw in how Kesselman selected time periods to compare....his conclusion doesn't hold up when you look at the longer time series. Rather than relying on "reputations" as your sole source of knowledge, try using the old grey matter for yourself.


The biggest problem with Shrecks report is that he criticized Kesselman's findings without showing how he would calculate the effects of HST. I could paraphrase his report in one sentence: "HST is bad, so Kesselman's report supporting HST is flawed".  It's a theme that runs through out the whole anti-HST campaign.

The second problem with Shreck's analysis is; 30 years of CPI data is rather pointless when the HST has only been around for 1 year. I suggest that is why Kesselman used the short time period.

Of course that's the difference between an actual economist and a political hack posing as an economist...   ::)
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chris gadsden

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #208 on: June 29, 2011, 05:46:39 PM »

Received the HST ballots today. Big X's going in the correct space. ;D ;D ;D

alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #209 on: June 29, 2011, 06:09:52 PM »

Here's the latest from StatsCanada. BC has the second lowest rate of inflation in Canada. That means our prices have risen the second least, in spite of the HST.

Looks like those rich businesses are not pocketing the savings... they are actually passing them on to the consumer.

May 2011 12 month inflation rates:

Canada 3.7
Newfoundland and Labrador 3.7
Prince Edward Island 3.9
Nova Scotia 4.6
New Brunswick 4.1
Quebec 3.5
Ontario 4.0
Manitoba 3.9
Saskatchewan 3.4
Alberta 2.8
British Columbia 3.1
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