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Author Topic: The HST vote - making a decision  (Read 125095 times)

Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #180 on: June 23, 2011, 10:14:23 AM »

Accepting liars as leaders is disgraceful at best. And, just for fun I felt the same about the NDP when they were in power and fibbing. The federal parties as well. Until we DEMAND AND GET an honest,open and candid system of governance, then it becomes a contest of who lies best.

Assume your in a private sector position of trust and dealing with people's lives, do you think you're clients would accept the same thing from you? Why should we accept it from politicians?


And I did tidy up the post, just for AF. ;D
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #181 on: June 23, 2011, 05:41:05 PM »

oops.


« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 05:43:17 PM by Novabonker »
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #182 on: June 23, 2011, 06:03:41 PM »

oops.




Great Post!!  Another thing we totally agree on!   ;D  ;D
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 06:07:19 PM by alwaysfishn »
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #183 on: June 23, 2011, 09:54:34 PM »

And Falcon comes up with another pike of crap. Has this guy EVER told the truth because his line of bull$hit keeps changing .Is he related to Pinocchio? Now the HST isn't good for all business...... Well freakin' DUH!

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/Canada/BC/1258521056/ID=2022903172
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 09:57:24 PM by Novabonker »
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Novabonker

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troutbreath

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #185 on: June 24, 2011, 10:00:30 PM »

More spent on taxes is less spent on goods and services. Which is less jobs and so on.
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #186 on: June 25, 2011, 02:23:03 PM »

http://lailayuile.com/


The BC Liberal/Smart Tax Alliance Top Seven HST Myths
1. The HST is now 10% – False
The HST is 12% and will not be 10% for three years – if ever. There will be an election before that, and even if the HST were to miraculously drop to 10% – it will still apply to hundreds more goods and services than a 12% PST/GST for a consumer tax increase of $1.6B per year. And who says it won’t go right back up again later?

2. The HST will lower taxes – False
This one is hilarious. The HST increases taxes for British Columbians by $2.8 Billion per year. That’s an average annual increase of $500 per person – or $1208 per average family – forever. Finance Minister Falcon says if his side loses he may disregard the result and expand the PST to items previously exempt – and that’s illegal. Do you really trust this guy to cut the rate if he wins?

3. The HST will save you money – False
And the tooth fairy is going to leave you a quarter under your pillow too. To get their numbers to show the HST actually “saving” you money they are calculating only “routine purchases” and that 90% of what you pay in HST will be passed back to you in lower prices. Have you seen lower prices?… We didn’t think so.

4. The HST benefits seniors – False
Seniors and people on fixed incomes are some of the hardest hit by the HST. A one time rebate of $175 if you vote in favour of their tax in exchange for paying it for the next 10-30 years of your retirement is a deal only a snake oil salesman would offer. Why take $175 when you can vote to cancel the HST and keep all your money? How dumb do they think we are?

5. The HST benefits families – False
Next to seniors, working families are hardest hit by the HST because they are among the largest consumers and have dependent children. Bribes of $175 per child when your cost is closer to $400 a year each makes you wonder if they think all of us failed math as badly as they did. And what about a single mom with two kids going to college? She gets nothing while the Premier and Finance Minister who earn big six figure salaries get the rebate. Nice.

6. Business will pay more so you can pay less – False
A temporary increase of 2% in corporate taxes will be passed on to consumers with increased prices. Either way you pay the final bill whether it’s in HST or higher prices.

7. We will owe $1.6 Billion if we cancel the HST – False
The “Independent Panel” says the HST generated $850 million more than budgeted. Setting aside that is the biggest tax grab in history, it means government already has $850 million to repay Ottawa . BC has only received $1B, and Ottawa collected $300M more in corporate taxes under the HST than under the PST. So it’s a wash. And keeping the HST would cost British Columbians alot more than killing it – over $28 Billion in new taxes in just 10 years.
Vote YES to extinguish the HST and save your province, your democracy, and your money!
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DavidD

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #187 on: June 26, 2011, 09:29:05 PM »

I could have sworn I just read this in this same posting just a few days ago.  ???   Other than the web site link - anything new?
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #188 on: June 27, 2011, 07:34:37 AM »


The Positive Impact of the HST


      At 10 per cent, the HST will be two points lower than the 12 per cent PST-GST

      The average B.C. family will now pay $120 less per year than they did under the PST-GST

      In addition to low-income families receiving up to $230 per person in HST credits, children and seniors will receive annual transition cheques of $175 until the 10 per cent HST rate takes effect

      83 per cent of small businesses support a 10 per cent HST, according to the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses

      The HST is an efficient consumption tax with no loopholes, exemptions for special interest groups or deductions

      The HST taxes the growing part of our economy services thereby providing $800m additional revenues British Columbia needs for health care and education by 2014

      The HST removes tax duplication throughout the value chain eliminating the costly compounding effect of PST which was applied at every level from raw materials right through to the retail level.

Please note that to keep the HST you must vote No on the ballot. The Association encourages you to please vote in this important referendum.

Gordon  Ruth, FCGA
Chief Executive Officer

http://www.cga-bc.org/latest_news.aspx?id=22194
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troutbreath

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #189 on: June 27, 2011, 07:46:23 AM »

 "83 per cent of small businesses support a 10 per cent HST, according to the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses"

As opposed to what, 20 percent HST. 100 percent would support no HST so there.
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #190 on: June 27, 2011, 07:54:30 AM »

By 2012 Canada will have the lowest corporate tax rate in the G7 - BC has the second lowest corporate tax rate in Canada, next to Nunavut. So let's all pass the hat with the HST and give an even bigger break, but do it on the backs of the working stiff.

GREED IS GOOD!

I could have sworn I just read this in this same posting just a few days ago.  ???   Other than the web site link - anything new?

Some things need repeating.
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #191 on: June 27, 2011, 08:27:54 AM »

http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/2011/06/hst-referendum-vote-is-about-democracy.html

Voting on the HST not just on tax policy, but also about defending democracy

By Bill Tieleman
 
 
"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."

- James Bovard, author

The Harmonized Sales Tax referendum isn't just about tax policy -- it's about democracy itself.

Voting "Yes" to extinguish the HST sends a powerful message to this and every future B.C. government -- do not mislead voters by bringing in a major policy that you denied you would before an election.

We've seen it before -- from this same BC Liberal government that said it wouldn't privatize BC Rail before the 2001 election and sold it off in 2003.

We saw it in Nova Scotia, where the New Democrat government said before the 2009 election it wouldn't raise taxes -- would even cut some -- but afterwards increased their HST to 15 per cent from 13 per cent.

There are always reasons why many governments insist they just had to break their word -- and usually have a few years to get away with it before the next election.

Not this time.

Historic opportunity

The grassroots rebellion led by Fight HST, which I helped create with former B.C. premier Bill Vander Zalm, forced this month's binding referendum vote when the 2010 citizens initiative petition obtained more than 557,000 valid voter signatures.

That means that for the first time in Canadian history -- even Commonwealth history -- voters have the chance to democratically overturn a government policy that was imposed against their will.

That in itself is reason enough to vote "Yes" to extinguish the HST -- to punish a government that didn't respect its own citizens -- and teach all parties a lesson about political honesty.

Democracy is earned

Former premier Gordon Campbell could have listened when the petition was successful and cancelled the HST -- but wouldn't.

The BC Liberal government could have paid attention to polls showing over 80 per cent opposition to the HST -- but didn't.

New Premier Christy Clark could have been different -- but instead her government is running a $5 million advertising campaign claiming the HST is good for us -- while Clark actually claims she is "neutral."

And the BC Liberal Party's big business allies, the so-called Smart Tax Alliance, are running an even more expensive HST ad and automated telephone campaign.

They think democracy can be bought. Don't believe it.

Democracy can only be earned. And it isn't for sale.
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #192 on: June 28, 2011, 04:23:47 PM »

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/newsroom/news-releases/bc%E2%80%99s-unfair-tax-system-means-richest-households-pay-lowest-overall-tax-rate


Vancouver) Public debate about taxes may be focused on the HST, but a new report suggests that the HST is only one piece of an inequitable provincial tax system, a system in which the richest 20% of British Columbians pay a lower tax rate than the rest of us.

The report, by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives’ BC Office, examines changes to the overall tax system during the last decade, comparing the total provincial tax rate for households at different income levels. The total tax rate includes provincial income tax, plus MSP premiums and sales, carbon and property taxes.

“Most people probably assume that the wealthy pay a higher tax rate,” says study co-author Seth Klein. “That’s how income taxes work. But when we look at all taxes combined, it’s a different story.”  The report’s key findings include:

    In 2000, most BC families paid about the same total tax rate, with families in the top 10% and top 1% paying a little more.
    By 2010, however, the tax system had become regressive, with the richest 20% of households paying a lower total tax rate than the rest of us.

“A decade of income tax cuts has lined the pockets of the wealthiest British Columbians,” says co-author Marc Lee. Combined, provincial income tax cuts introduced since 2001 deliver an average of $9,000 per year to the richest 10% of BC households, and a whopping $41,000 to the top 1%.  In contrast, lower income households received an average tax cut of about $200 per year, and those in middle got just over $1,200.

The study finds that between 2000 and 2010, BC’s tax revenues fell by 1.7% of GDP, representing a loss of $3.4 billion in provincial revenue.  “Tax cuts come at a high price,” says co-author Iglika Ivanova. “If we’d kept our tax system the same, we’d have $3.4 billion more to spend on needed public services today.”

The provincial government now relies more heavily on MSP premiums, the carbon tax, and sales taxes for public revenue. These taxes hit lower- and middle-income households harder. British Columbians now contribute more to the provincial treasury in MSP premiums than businesses contribute in provincial corporate income taxes.

The study calls for a Fair Tax Commission to look at how we pay for the services and infrastructure BC needs, and to make sure everyone contributes a fair share.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #193 on: June 28, 2011, 04:52:22 PM »

Jealousy will get you nowhere....   

Did you know that the top 20% of income earners in Canada pay 80% of the income taxes?

In the US the top 20% pay 88% of the income taxes. The top 50% pay 97% of the income taxes.

Apparently the bottom 80% of the income earners want the rich to pay all the taxes?

But what does that have to do with the HST discussion?
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Novabonker

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Re: The HST vote - making a decision
« Reply #194 on: June 28, 2011, 06:37:27 PM »

As previously requested AF- keep the personal barbs out. I've managed, maybe you could try too. ::)





Fair tax policies? Screwing the little guy AGAIN with the HST? How much do they hold to make that much taxable income? Is there any limit to pure GREED?

http://www.strategicthoughts.com/record2011/HST_Kesselman.html



Business Council HST Study Rejected
As an economist who opposes the HST, I object to supporters of the HST frequently ridiculing opponents of the tax by portraying them as economic ignoramuses. A well produced and funny 15 minute YouTube video dissects a paper released by Fight HST, the group headed by Bill Vander Zalm. The people who made BC history by being the first to successfully use the Recall and Initiative Act are not economists, but community activists who can see what the HST is costing families as a result of the $2 billion cost shift: businesses no longer pay PST and consumers pay tax on a much broader range of goods and services to more than make up the difference.

It is frequently claimed that most economists support value added taxes like the HST. I don't know of any survey of economists to substantiate that claim, but I am aware that there are only a handful of economists who regularly speak out or write in favour of the tax. Two economists have attempted to quantify effects of the HST, Steven Smart for Atlantic Canada and Ontario and Jon Kesselman for BC.

The purpose of this column is to demonstrate that Kesselman's study is incorrect for two reasons. First, and most importantly, an analysis of the last 30 years of consumer price index (CPI) data show his results could be randomly obtained almost two thirds of the time. Second, the CPI data he used may be inadequate for the purposes for which he used it.

Kesselman's paper was prepared for the Business Council of British Columbia. By email he informed me that a version of his paper, updated with the latest CPI data, will be published in the in the June issue of Canadian Public Policy. He argued that his analysis of the CPI: “... finds that the HST resulted in a 0.6 of one percent increase in overall consumer prices in BC. This finding indicates that the average consumer is now paying just one additional dollar for every $165 of spending.” He went on to write:

“Public skepticism on this point is widespread. Admittedly it is difficult for consumers to identify small price cuts across a vast array of goods and services—whereas it is easy to see the HST, which is printed clearly on every sales receipt. But the different operation of the HST relative to the RST offers good reasons to expect the prices of some items to decrease post-HST. In this study I report on data that confirms that businesses have in fact passed through to consumers large amounts of their tax savings with the HST.”
Kesselman's claims are based on a method known as Difference-in-Difference (DD) estimation. He looked at the increase in the consumer price index for all items excluding energy between June and July 2010. He then looked at the difference between the increase in the CPI for BC between July and December compared to the average increase in it for Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. From that relatively simple calculation he reported “price impacts for BC were 1.0 percent in the first month and –0.5 percent in the next five months, for a net impact of 0.6 percent over the six-month period.” He then claimed that the 0.6 percent represented the consumer impacts of harmonization and that low figure was consistent with forecasts that assumed full pass-through of the business tax savings. That conclusion is very strong for what amounts to an interpretation of one glorified ratio of index numbers so I repeated Kesselman's calculations, not just for the last several months but for the last 30 years.

The motivation for my look at the CPI since 1981 came from a study done by three economists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. They randomly generated placebo laws in state-level data on female wages and then used a regression to compute the DD estimate of the placebo's “effect”. They found that the DD estimation resulted in an “effect” significant at the 5% level for up to 45% of the placebo laws.

Using the CPI data for all items excluding energy for BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba I repeated Kesselman's calculations for 30 years of data. Kesselman method applied to 30 yrs of CPI I looked at the change between June and July 1981 and compared it to the difference between BC and the western province average between July and December 1981. That formula was generalized to other months so, for example, I calculated the change between January and February 1990 compared to the difference between BC and the western province average between February and July. A graph of the figures that are equivalent to Kesselman's 0.6% is shown here. If a month is chosen at random, there is a chance of almost 2 out of 3 to get an estimate that our placebo change had an impact of less than 0.6% (226 months produced calculations under 0.6% and 126 produced calculations over 0.6%).

Not only did Kesselman rely on an unreliable calculation, but he may have pushed the CPI beyond what it is designed to do. Documentation from Statistics Canada says: “Statistical reliability is inherently more difficult to assess for price indexes than for other statistical series due to the complex nature of composite price change and the statistical problems of estimating composite price change.” It goes on to say: “Sampling error for the CPI price surveys is difficult to quantify because, except for rents and traveller accommodation, product and outlet samples are based on judgmental rather than probability sampling methods.” The documentation concludes:

“The CPI is believed to be sufficiently accurate for most practical purposes. Accuracy is best at higher levels of geographic and product aggregation due to the larger sizes of the price samples for high levels of aggregation. As well, since errors can occur in price collection and editing or in making quality adjustments to estimate "pure price change", higher level aggregate indexes are likely to be better quality than lower level indexes because any distortions due to errors are more likely to cancel out. In general accuracy is better at the Canada level for any product index in the CPI compared to the same index at the province or city level. Also, accuracy is better at the All-items or major component levels of the CPI compared to individual product indexes. Finally, the CPI is more accurate as an indicator of change over several months or a year compared to the accuracy of the price change measured from any one month to the next.”

Kesselman was correct when he observed public scepticism is widespread. I hope the argument I've made here demonstrates why the public has every right to be sceptical. I don't know if the talented UBC videographer will use this column to do a spoof of pro-HST economists, but one is warranted.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 06:44:14 PM by Novabonker »
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