Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: More Problems At Fish Farms  (Read 33662 times)

Fisherbob

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1346
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2013, 12:32:06 PM »

Once again MB, please excuse me for no longer being a loyal listener on your side of the fence. :)
Logged

moosebreath

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2013, 02:00:56 PM »

What is my side of the fence, flip flop bawb? Are you going to tell me you don't believe in Santa Claus anymore? *sobs*
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 02:06:06 PM by moosebreath »
Logged

Fisherbob

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1346
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2013, 02:36:30 PM »

What is my side of the fence, flip flop bawb? Are you going to tell me you don't believe in Santa Claus anymore? *sobs*
" the difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
    Albert Einstein. :)
Logged

clarki

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1968
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2013, 04:22:05 PM »

Because disease mutates Dave.

This post needs a comma :)

Or, not knowing Dave personally, maybe it doesn't...
Logged

Dave

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3377
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2013, 05:59:50 PM »

LOL! :D
Logged

salmonrook

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 216
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2013, 01:15:48 AM »

I understand your point remains the same, but it is still false.  I am also wondering what you know about IHN.

In the most recent outbreak of IHN at Mainstream's Dixon Bay farm in 2012 was first discovered during routine testing.  Samples were immediately sent to a third party lab (Provincial Animal Health Lab in Abbottsford) where PCR testing showed the presence of the IHN virus.  IHN is a reportable disease in Canada.  This means that fish farming companies in Canada, including Mainstream, are required by law to immediately notify the CFIA (even if they only suspect it)- which they did.  However, based on prior experience from the 2003 IHN outbreak, Mainstream knew that they could not wait for CFIA confirmation results which could take up to 2 weeks, so the decision was made to depopulate 500,000 Atlantic Salmon immediately - before the confirmation results were known.  This was in the news article I attached previously.  Fish farmers here in BC learned after 2003 that they needed to act quickly to maintain biosecurity by preventing the spread of the virus to other farms by boats, shared personnel or shared contractors.  Thus, your contention that BC fish farms ordered the cull after their stock was deemed infected is false because Mainstream carried out the cull before any confirmation from the CFIA.

This is really not much different from what potato farmers do when potato blight is suspected.  My late father-in-law was potato farmer back in New Brunswick.  The concern is not just for the farmer that has potato blight in his crops, but for the other immediate farms in the area that do not.  There is machinery and workers constantly being moved around from field to field which poses a high risk of infection if potato blight is present.  To prevent the spread to other farms, the farmer with potato blight (even suspected) may burn a large portion of their fields.  They are not making money if they are burning their fields and not harvesting the potatoes from it because of potato blight or some other disease.

The reason that the fish were culled because of “profit” is not only false, but it makes no sense because the fish are much more valuable if they are healthy.  Mainstream already addressed this myth from Mr. Reid who is so clueless it is actually funny.  As for conservation purposes, you should understand that IHNv is an endemic virus to our coast, from Alaska to California.  Wild Pacific Salmon, such as Sockeye, can carry the virus their whole lives without experiencing the disease – IHN; however, in dense situations like hatcheries, the virus can cause disease in salmon fry.  On the other hand, Atlantic Salmon have not developed the natural resistance to IHNv like Pacific Salmon.  IHN is highly lethal to Atlantic Salmon.
My point is that the American producers are more accountable for the health of their industry,not sure why they import so much from us which, I find to be questionable ,health wise.
 As for potatoes?
There is a HUGE different between a domestically produced vegetable crop thats been farmed domestically for hundreds of years and a wild seafood stock , where we are still finding out the negative effects on their survival rate from year to year.
I understand the concept of disease and know it was only made to illustrate.
 The cull of these fish earlier without waiting means that they would not have to continue feeding them for 2 weeks while they wait for confirmation from CFIA which they surely already know will be the outcome or directive.It also gives them 2 weeks head start over a new stock of salmon.Ultimately time is money and savings on feed and growing time is valuable for this business.
  You just made the point as well about this virus being epidemic in the Atlantic farm stocks ,why would any one want this??
 I too like the term "depopulate" ,I suppose cull is a sanitized term as well,both mean killing .It sounds better in the media and on TV . Kind of  Bush-era spin ,collateral damage,etc.
Logged

Fisherbob

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1346
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2013, 07:12:51 AM »

My point is that the American producers are more accountable for the health of their industry,not sure why they import so much from us which, I find to be questionable ,health wise.
This may help you out. :)
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/management-gestion/index-eng.htm

A comparison between countries.
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/cabinet/Summary_Table_BC-World_Aqua_Regs.pdf

I seem to have a problem finding The American regulations. Can you help me out? :)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 07:32:34 AM by Fisherbob »
Logged

troutbreath

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2908
  • I does Christy
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2013, 07:19:28 PM »

Can you help me out? :)

Not qualified in that field, try the yellow pages.
Logged
another SLICE of dirty fish perhaps?

rjs

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 367
  • work is over rated !!!!
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2013, 08:20:09 PM »

A comparison between countries.
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/cabinet/Summary_Table_BC-World_Aqua_Regs.pdf

I don't believe anything written by our Government !!!
Logged

Fisherbob

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1346
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2013, 10:48:11 PM »

Looks like the Americans lost out on this one LOL. :)
http://www.creativesalmon.com/_docs/Creative-Salmon-Achieves-Organic-Certification.pdf
 Go Canada :)
Logged

shuswapsteve

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 894
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2013, 11:03:02 PM »

My point is that the American producers are more accountable for the health of their industry,not sure why they import so much from us which, I find to be questionable ,health wise.
 As for potatoes?
There is a HUGE different between a domestically produced vegetable crop thats been farmed domestically for hundreds of years and a wild seafood stock , where we are still finding out the negative effects on their survival rate from year to year.
I understand the concept of disease and know it was only made to illustrate.
 The cull of these fish earlier without waiting means that they would not have to continue feeding them for 2 weeks while they wait for confirmation from CFIA which they surely already know will be the outcome or directive.It also gives them 2 weeks head start over a new stock of salmon.Ultimately time is money and savings on feed and growing time is valuable for this business.
  You just made the point as well about this virus being epidemic in the Atlantic farm stocks ,why would any one want this??
 I too like the term "depopulate" ,I suppose cull is a sanitized term as well,both mean killing .It sounds better in the media and on TV . Kind of  Bush-era spin ,collateral damage,etc.

First thing I noticed about your argument is that it has changed from the industry here not acting quickly enough to cull infected Atlantic Salmon (as compared to the Americans) to now culling these fish earlier than CFIA confirmation so it will give them a head start raising more salmon in the ocean.  Which is it?

However, that aside, you are again incorrect about the reasons why the cull was done earlier.  The early depopulation or cull was done to prevent the spread of the IHN virus to nearby farms and becoming a larger problem – it was not to give them a 2 week head start.  I agree that time is money, but losing stock is money also.  In the outbreaks that occurred between 2001 and 2003, it was found that the IHN virus spread from infected farms to non-infected farms.  Evidence showed that farming practices (boats, personnel, etc.) contributed significantly to this spread.  According the literature I have provided, there can be a steep rise in mortality from IHN on a fish farm before clinical signs are noticed.  Once Atlantic Salmon become infected and show clinical signs of IHN, the disease can already have taken a hold of the farm in question.  Experience from this past outbreak period showed that farms were following the wrong sequence of action by increasing biosecurity and isolating farms after official confirmation (which can take 2 to 3 weeks).  Instead, a more pre-emptive approach to cull after initial suspicion or results appears to be a better approach to prevent the loss of stock at nearby farms.

This leads into my example with potato farming.  Although I agree with you that we are still finding out the negative effects on the survival wild fish from year to year you missed my point regarding how potato farming relates, so I will clarify.  With potato farms being relatively located very close together as well as personnel and equipment moving within and between different farms the spread of disease (in this case Potato Blight) can be very rapid and devastating.  This is why it is not uncommon for farmers there to take immediate action to burn portions of their fields to stop the spread – which is parallel to what fish farmers did in 2012 with a cull.  Potatoes may be a domesticated produced vegetable, but they are prone to diseases as much as aquaculture finfish or shellfish.

One thing I have learned is that Atlantic Salmon are not introduced immediately after a disease outbreak or epidemic such as IHN.  It can be as long as 6 months before fish are reintroduced into seawater.  A period of cleaning and fallowing follow restocking.  It probably would not be a wise move to quickly put fish into the water if the presence of the IHN virus is still suspected.  In addition, the young fish that are introduced to the seawater likely have to be a certain size and maturity before that step is done.  As for knowing what “is valuable for this business” I am interested in knowing what you actually know about the business.

To clarify, the IHN virus is endemic to our coast; but outbreaks or epidemics of the disease (IHN) can occur in Atlantic Salmon who have no natural resistance.  What I said was that IHN is highly lethal to Atlantic Salmon.  This can happen when there is an epidemic or outbreak.  Despite this, IHN disease events with Atlantic Salmon in BC fish farms are actually rare.  There is no continuous IHN epidemic going on right now with Atlantic Salmon here unless you have heard something new in the news recently.  I have pretty much said all I can on this subject in this thread now.  At this point I would appreciate if you could show me some actual facts to support your argument – specifically your knowledge of the business here in your latest post.  If you can I will be more persuaded to believe you.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao2006/72/d072p213.pdf
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 11:06:38 PM by shuswapsteve »
Logged

troutbreath

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2908
  • I does Christy
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2013, 12:25:50 AM »

Steve are you as long winded socially? Cut to the chase and be concise for the sake of clarity. Your pandering makes for bad reading. End up losing interest in what your trying to get across, by your verbosity.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_to_the_chase
Logged
another SLICE of dirty fish perhaps?

salmonrook

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 216
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2013, 12:55:43 AM »

The argument/discussion/response was brought up only in response to your news article that you mentioned about the fish farm culling their salmon 2 weeks earlier.This is only 1 farm doing this and to me seems opportunistic at best, not because they care for the environment where the fish are raised outside their own business.
  I dont disagree with you  about the quarantine and sterilization of all the boats,nets,equipement that needs to be done after an infection takes place.Surely this is best for all involved .
 As for our regulations being stricter, they would certainly have to be especially since you are introducing a foreign species into an environment with what seems to be a healthy wild stock and thriving industry that it supports.
 I dont profess to know everthing on this subject but do not support foreign fish farms in Canadian waters.
When i go to dinner I always ask where the fish is from and what type, any hint of frankenfish and I have the chicken thanks!
Always enjoy a lively debate!
Looks like the Americans lost out on this one LOL. :)
http://www.creativesalmon.com/_docs/Creative-Salmon-Achieves-Organic-Certification.pdf
 Go Canada :)
Kudos to Creative Salmon, a canadian company raising native salmon for local markets, which I think people are better educated and aware of nowadays in our environment of GMO foods,but ,thats another discussion for another day.
Logged

swimmingwiththefishes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 318
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2013, 05:23:27 PM »

Interesting company but how is rearing local fish much better than Atlantic in terms of it's effects on wild stock?  I think this is what most of us on this site are concerned about. We don't much care how organic the farmed stuff is because we do not eat farmed salmon.  While it might be considered organic by fish farming standards, do these standards include any consideration of present wild stock?

It seems to me that whenever you gather a large number of salmon in one place and in large numbers (ie. a net pen) you vastly increase the risk of creating large amounts of disease. Whether it's Chinook or Atlantic they still risk spreading disease to wild stock.
Logged

Dave

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3377
Re: More Problems At Fish Farms
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2013, 06:47:55 PM »

Interesting company but how is rearing local fish much better than Atlantic in terms of it's effects on wild stock?  I think this is what most of us on this site are concerned about. We don't much care how organic the farmed stuff is because we do not eat farmed salmon.  While it might be considered organic by fish farming standards, do these standards include any consideration of present wild stock?

It seems to me that whenever you gather a large number of salmon in one place and in large numbers (ie. a net pen) you vastly increase the risk of creating large amounts of disease. Whether it's Chinook or Atlantic they still risk spreading disease to wild stock.
Diseases most certainly happen in all concentrated gatherings of fish, poultry, beef, pork, sheep,  elk, rabbits, etc, etc, and … people.  Want to get sick? Go to a local clinic; people sneezing, kids coughing god knows what, spreading to already possibly compromised people (after all, mostly that's why they're  there).
 BCs federal and provincial fish hatcheries, as well as our near natural spawning channels, are no exception to disease outbreaks; last year's Chilliwack River steelhead juveniles are a good example.  Perhaps do some research to see how many fish stocks  anglers covet that are treated with fungicides and antibiotics while in captivity.  I can verify that every year 45 gal of full strength formalin was used to treat 250 Cultus Lake sockeye used for broodstock.  Extrapolate that over all BCs hatcheries… go further and check out the disease prevention protocols for the monstrous Alaskan salmon ranching industry.
The good news is all these farms, ranches, hatcheries … all sites that raise animals, learn from past mistakes and continually do so because they must to compete in today's economy.
Logged