Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Get your facts straight?  (Read 1485514 times)

Fisherbob

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1368
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3525 on: January 30, 2023, 04:27:47 PM »


I personally don't have a problem with fish farms.
I just don't want them in BC killing native Pacific salmon.


When and where has salmon farming in BC killed native Pacific salmon? Time to leave your feelings behind or buck up with the documented scientific proof.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 04:42:07 PM by Fisherbob »
Logged

Easywater

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1006
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3526 on: January 30, 2023, 07:08:47 PM »

https://davidsuzuki.org/story/suppressed-science-shows-fish-farms-endanger-wild-salmon/
PRV causes anemia and jaundice in farmed salmon and can spread to wild salmon. The study found it’s uniquely damaging to Chinook, causing their blood cells to rupture, leading to kidney and liver damage.

https://watershedwatch.ca/top-3-reasons-open-net-pen-salmon-farms-threaten-wild-salmon/
Read the comments - there are dozens of links outlining the damage done by fish farms.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/virus-killing-farmed-pacific-and-atlantic-salmon-raises-risk-for-wild-b-c-population-study-1.3918507
Scientists have discovered that a highly-contagious virus impacting farmed Atlantic salmon also harms their Pacific cousins.

https://environment.geog.ubc.ca/something-is-fishy-salmon-farming-on-the-b-c-coast/
Evidence has been found that suggests a clear correlation between sea lice abundance and commercial salmon farms (Noakes et al, 2008), where the crowded pens provide ideal conditions for the parasites to thrive. As juvenile wild salmon migrate to the ocean from the surrounding rivers, these estuaries teeming with parasites infestations, become prime killing grounds for the young fish

That is a small portion of the information you can find with a Google search.
I won't post any links to Morton's information as it probably gives fish farmers strokes.
Logged

Fisherbob

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1368
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3527 on: January 30, 2023, 07:40:29 PM »

https://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/science/aah-saa/species-especes/aq-health-sante/prv-rp-eng.html
 
Your links do not provide any information where and when wild stocks have been decimated by farmed salmon. It seems to me that wild stocks transfer common diseases to farmed salmon that enter the farms disease free and your links are full of speculation that foreign funding has paid for.

https://fairquestions.typepad.com/files/follow-the-money-2.pdf

Btw. Try to keep up with the times on the sea lice debate.
https://bcsalmonfarmers.ca/news/government-of-canada-science-report-confirms-no-statistically-relevant-association-regarding-sea-lice-and-the-production-of-farmed-salmon/
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 08:21:22 PM by Fisherbob »
Logged

Easywater

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1006
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3528 on: January 30, 2023, 10:12:14 PM »

Are you blind?
I even quoted the relevant text from the websites.

If you look at the actual DFO published report, it tells a different story than what the farm promotion websites have twisted it to.
The role of farmed salmon, particularly farmed Atlantic Salmon, as potential reservoirs of L.
salmonis is accepted (Saksida et al., 2015).


The title of your "report" says:
Government of Canada science report confirms “No statistically relevant association” regarding sea lice and the production of farmed salmon.

Table 3 of the DFO report shows the weekly sea lice counts at an average of 65 fish farms was as high as 10,257,985,037 in 2013 and 2018.
there are about 750 fish farms in BC so the total sea lice counts are astronomical.
Logged

Fisherbob

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1368
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3529 on: January 31, 2023, 09:50:00 AM »

https://archive.news.gov.bc.ca/releases/archive/2001-2005/2002agf0020-000827.htm

“Fish farms are havens for massive outbreaks of disease.”
 
In fact, there is no recorded instance in B.C. of bacterial or viral disease moving from farmed salmon to wild stocks. Diseases like IHN are a threat to production but pose a very low risk to wild stocks and absolutely no risk to human health. As well, all smolts put into fish farms are inspected to be free from the virus.“

https://biv.com/article/2023/01/sea-lice-farmed-wild-salmon-insignificant-csas
« Last Edit: January 31, 2023, 10:08:06 AM by Fisherbob »
Logged

RalphH

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4955
    • Initating Salmon Fry
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3530 on: January 31, 2023, 06:09:08 PM »

https://archive.news.gov.bc.ca/releases/archive/2001-2005/2002agf0020-000827.htm

“Fish farms are havens for massive outbreaks of disease.”
 
In fact, there is no recorded instance in B.C. of bacterial or viral disease moving from farmed salmon to wild stocks. Diseases like IHN are a threat to production but pose a very low risk to wild stocks and absolutely no risk to human health. As well, all smolts put into fish farms are inspected to be free from the virus.“

https://biv.com/article/2023/01/sea-lice-farmed-wild-salmon-insignificant-csas

you are aware the first link was an op/ed piece published close to 20 years ago.

the second reported a finding of "no statistical significance" which by itself means nothing, based on a review of previous studies which it means it provides no new information.

Neither addresses the question of disease transfer.
Logged
"It is obviously, incontestably true that a senile president with a competent and ethical staff would be preferable to an authoritarian one who wants to fill his administration with guys who sound like school shooter manifestos " ...Adam Serwer writing in The Atlantic July 3, 2024

Fisherbob

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1368
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 08:03:17 AM by Fisherbob »
Logged

RalphH

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4955
    • Initating Salmon Fry
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3532 on: February 01, 2023, 01:35:50 PM »

The UBC study actually has different findings than debunking claims by anti-salmon farming advocates:

here is another summary not from a Salmon farming PR mouthpiece:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/05/210526150216.htm

Quote
"Both our genomic and epidemiological methods independently came to the same conclusion, that salmon farms act as a source and amplifier of PRV transmission," said Dr. Gideon Mordecai, a viral ecologist and Liber Ero fellow with UBC Science and researcher with UBC Medicine, who led the study. "Because separate lines of independent evidence all point to the same answer, we're confident in our finding."

Sequencing of 86 PRV genomes helped researchers track the history of PRV emergence in British Columbia. They estimate that the lineage of PRV in the North East Pacific diverged from PRV in the Atlantic Ocean approximately 30 years ago. This suggests that the introduction of PRV to B.C. and infection of wild Pacific salmon is a relatively recent phenomenon, coincident with the growth of salmon aquaculture in the province -- not dating back to early attempts to introduce Atlantic salmon to the region, starting in 1874.
...

Our finding that PRV is transmitted between farmed and wild salmon is particularly relevant given recent field and laboratory studies showing the lineage of PRV in B.C. is likely to cause disease in both Pacific and Atlantic salmon" says Dr. Mordecai. A recent Norwegian study found that a Canadian isolate of the virus causes heart lesions in Atlantic salmon. More importantly to the Pacific ecosystem, PRV has been associated with a different disease in Chinook salmon in which blood cells rupture, leading to kidney and liver damage. These are in contrast to the DFO's assessment that PRV is not a disease agent.

from the State of Alaska Department if fisheries:

https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/species/disease/pdfs/fishdiseases/piscine_orthoreovirus.pdf

Quote
PRV is reported from Norway,Denmark, Ireland, Chile, Japan and the Pacific Northwest (WA, AK, BC, Canada) infecting Atlantic salmon, Pacific
salmon and trout (cutthroat, steelhead,sea-run brown). In Alaska, PRV was sequenced from three stocks of coho and one stock of Chinook and unconfirmed
in one stock of chum salmon

Troubling that other governments recognize this when ours does not.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 02:25:53 PM by RalphH »
Logged
"It is obviously, incontestably true that a senile president with a competent and ethical staff would be preferable to an authoritarian one who wants to fill his administration with guys who sound like school shooter manifestos " ...Adam Serwer writing in The Atlantic July 3, 2024

wildmanyeah

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2032
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3533 on: February 01, 2023, 04:54:17 PM »

Does it matter anymore, been around for 30 years and the best that any study can say is that it may cause jaundiced is farmed chinook.

farm from a smoking gun for salmon survival that some believe.

Also that's only one example of PVR there is also Native PRV to the pacific not linked to Atlantic.

I don't believe there is anything showing PRV to be causing declines and killing of pacific salmon. Also a virus that old and spread thought out the population for years means the population likely has high natural immunity to it.

I believe  DFO looked at its effects on sockeye population and found that it was not a viral agent in sockeye.

Cristy miller i believe study said it caused jaundice of the liver in farmed chinook. It does however caused deises in farmed Atlantic salmon.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 05:02:37 PM by wildmanyeah »
Logged

RalphH

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4955
    • Initating Salmon Fry
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3534 on: February 01, 2023, 05:14:28 PM »

Yes it matters. Contrary to what the Salmon farming industry says there is evidence that PRV transmission from farmed to wild salmon may be harmful particularly among chinook; "PRV has been associated with a different disease in Chinook salmon in which blood cells rupture, leading to kidney and liver damage".
Logged
"It is obviously, incontestably true that a senile president with a competent and ethical staff would be preferable to an authoritarian one who wants to fill his administration with guys who sound like school shooter manifestos " ...Adam Serwer writing in The Atlantic July 3, 2024

wildmanyeah

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2032
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3535 on: February 01, 2023, 05:23:25 PM »

Yes it matters. Contrary to what the Salmon farming industry says there is evidence that PRV transmission from farmed to wild salmon may be harmful particularly among chinook; "PRV has been associated with a different disease in Chinook salmon in which blood cells rupture, leading to kidney and liver damage".

there is midwater shrimp trawlers that kill thousand of juvenile chinook in the SOG every year. Quantifiable

PRV is endemic now that's my point it doesn't matter, remove the farms the PRV is still here
Logged

Dave

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3385
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3536 on: February 01, 2023, 07:32:55 PM »



PRV is endemic now that's my point it doesn't matter, remove the farms the PRV is still here
Excellent point, one I had not considered.  Not sure if the European strain of PVR causing all the fuss would be considered endemic yet but certainly there would be some form of immunity, thus the zero known mortalities?
Logged

RalphH

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4955
    • Initating Salmon Fry
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3537 on: February 01, 2023, 08:11:11 PM »

Excellent point, one I had not considered.  Not sure if the European strain of PVR causing all the fuss would be considered endemic yet but certainly there would be some form of immunity, thus the zero known mortalities?

how can it be proven there are zero moralities in the wild?
Logged
"It is obviously, incontestably true that a senile president with a competent and ethical staff would be preferable to an authoritarian one who wants to fill his administration with guys who sound like school shooter manifestos " ...Adam Serwer writing in The Atlantic July 3, 2024

Dave

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3385
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3538 on: February 02, 2023, 06:04:44 AM »

how can it be proven there are zero moralities in the wild?
I am not aware of any documented PRV induced mortalities, are you?
Logged

RalphH

  • Old Timer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4955
    • Initating Salmon Fry
Re: Get your facts straight?
« Reply #3539 on: February 02, 2023, 09:20:48 AM »

Well absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Likewise one or even more studies that fail to produce a statistically significant result does not eliminate the possibility of causation. Such results don't in and of themselves indicate anything. They just fail to find a significant relationship.  That's something learned in a basic grounding in experimental design often lacking even at the grad school level. Much of what been has been said to dismiss PRV as a threat to salmon is based on logical fallacies.

According to the latest genetic studies PRV has been in the Pacific for about 30 years. Has the number of salmon gone up, down or remained static over that time period? If you agree it's gone down there needs to be careful thought given to issues like PRV and jaundice syndrome.

Personally I don't think it is wise to write off any possible factor without serious study.

PRV has shown it can infect chinook, coho and rainbow/steelhead at minimum.

PRV is associated with jaundice in salmon. Jaundice is not a disease it's a symptom of a underlying physiological issue such a blocked bile duct or liver damage or failure. I can be a symptom of a very serious condition. It may also may impede development, survival in the wild and spawning success and have a significant effect on population levels. Many necropsies do find damage to the liver and spleen. 

Jaundice syndrome is also not unique to salmon. Almost every study of fish with jaundice syndrome can't identify a casual agent though most suspect a virus. Infectivity studies that inject live materiel from diseased fish into healthy fish often don't produce a significant infection rate in the healthy specimens.


That could because by the time the jaundice occurs the casual agent is no longer transmissible.

Please keep in mind we have just had a 3 year crash course on how quickly viruses can mutate and dodge the efforts of medicine to control their spread. Let's not be complacent. 
Logged
"It is obviously, incontestably true that a senile president with a competent and ethical staff would be preferable to an authoritarian one who wants to fill his administration with guys who sound like school shooter manifestos " ...Adam Serwer writing in The Atlantic July 3, 2024