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Author Topic: Idle No More?  (Read 15712 times)

adriaticum

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2013, 10:04:35 PM »

Athezone, very well put.


Sandman,
Somehow FNs have failed to mention any details of the reasons they are protesting and I, like most people don't buy what they're selling.
If they are protesting something relating to what our current government is doing they should protest it in the name of all Canadians, not in the name of First Nations.
Because it concerns all of us.
If they want the attention of all of their fellow citizens of this country they should speak and protest on behalf of all Canadians.
What was done to the First Nations long ago and whether it was right or wrong is of no consequence today.
We are all in this s..t together.
Conservative omnibus bill is a response after decades of Liberal rubbish. Unfortunately they are rushing so many pieces of legislation that nobody seems to understand what's going on.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 10:06:19 PM by adriaticum »
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2013, 10:08:32 PM »

I think throwing out the racism card is a cop out. It's often used to shut down a conversation and silence logical arguments.

These are good discussion with good information. I'm not detecting any racism here. I suggest that word not be used.
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Sandman

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2013, 10:26:00 PM »

The big difference is that the Canadian politicians are held to account. The FN Chiefs are not being held to account and instead of vilifying the FN politicians, the media and opposition parties point fingers at the Canadian government. In the end it's the FN people that are suffering, but it's their own leaders that are responsible.


The same could be said for the Federal Government itself.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/01/05/first-nations-audits-infrastructure.html

This can't be fixed by giving the FN leaders what they are asking for. They have demonstrated that they are corrupt and like any Canadian politician they need to be removed from their responsibility.

The Idle No More movement is a grassroots movement and is not tied to any "chiefs" (attempts to associate Spence with the the grassroots movement is a clever strategy, given she is currently being criticized for mismanaging funds).  The "leaders" of Idle No More are trying "to ensure that the environment is protected and our inherent right to Indigenous sovereignty is recognized" and this CAN be accomplished by giving them what they want: "a repeal all legislation which violates Treaties, Aboriginal inherent rights and title, and subsequently environmental protections of land and water."

Unfortunately their system of government will continue to promote these sort of leaders.

No more so than ours does.

Integrating the FN people into Canadian society is the only solution.

Trudeau tried, they do not want that.
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Sandman

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2013, 10:30:22 PM »

Athezone, very well put.


Sandman,
Somehow FNs have failed to mention any details of the reasons they are protesting and I, like most people don't buy what they're selling.
If they are protesting something relating to what our current government is doing they should protest it in the name of all Canadians, not in the name of First Nations.
Because it concerns all of us.
If they want the attention of all of their fellow citizens of this country they should speak and protest on behalf of all Canadians.
What was done to the First Nations long ago and whether it was right or wrong is of no consequence today.
We are all in this s..t together.
Conservative omnibus bill is a response after decades of Liberal rubbish. Unfortunately they are rushing so many pieces of legislation that nobody seems to understand what's going on.

The details are there if you want to look.  Just look at their web site. www.idlenomore.ca
The Omnibus bill includes all kids of changes to regulations that are so contrary to what Canadians value (remember that 6 out of 10 Canadians voted against Harper's Conservatives).
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2013, 10:32:34 PM »

The same could be said for the Federal Government itself.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/01/05/first-nations-audits-infrastructure.html

The Idle No More movement is a grassroots movement and is not tied to any "chiefs" (attempts to associate Spence with the the grassroots movement is a clever strategy, given she is currently being criticized for mismanaging funds).  The "leaders" of Idle No More are trying "to ensure that the environment is protected and our inherent right to Indigenous sovereignty is recognized" and this CAN be accomplished by giving them what they want: "a repeal all legislation which violates Treaties, Aboriginal inherent rights and title, and subsequently environmental protections of land and water."

No more so than ours does.

Trudeau tried, they do not want that.

All the arguments you've presented suggest that we should do more of the same, which logic suggests will create more of the same problems. Doesn't seem like much of a solution.

At least the suggestions for change offer some hope of fixing the situation which seems a logical objective.....
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Sandman

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2013, 10:39:34 PM »

All the arguments you've presented suggest that we should do more of the same, which logic suggests will create more of the same problems. Doesn't seem like much of a solution.

At least the suggestions for change offer some hope of fixing the situation which seems a logical objective.....

Not at all.  I am suggesting that the future will be determined by the FN, not us. Arguments for assimilation have been around for over a century as a solution to the "Indian problem".  That has been rejected by FN every time.  They will need to come to the terms of their development on their own. It is their right to self-determination that I support, I am actually quite excited by the propect of a grassroots movement in the FN communities.  I only hope the "leadership" (theirs and ours) doesn't scuttle it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 10:41:34 PM by Sandman »
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2013, 10:42:12 PM »

The Omnibus bill includes all kids of changes to regulations that are so contrary to what Canadians value (remember that 6 out of 10 Canadians voted against Harper's Conservatives).

Just heard a CBC poll which suggests you may be wrong.....   about the regulations being contrary to what Canadians value.  I appreciate you may feel that way as do most of the opposition parties, however there seems to be a majority of Canadians that support the bill.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2013, 10:46:06 PM »

Not at all.  I am suggesting that the future will be determined by the FN, not us. Arguments for assimilation have been around for over a century as a solution to the "Indian problem".  That has been rejected by FN every time.  They will need to come to the terms of their development on their own. It is their right to self-determination that I support, I am actually quite excited by the propect of a grassroots movement in the FN communities.  I only hope the "leadership" (theirs and ours) doesn't scuttle it.

Nice idea, however when you have a population of FN that accept living in sub poverty conditions, while their leaders live in nice houses and drive cadillacs, the resulting "self-determination" will never be in the best interests of the majority of the FN's. That's why it won't work.
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Athezone

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2013, 11:10:07 PM »

Nice idea, however when you have a population of FN that accept living in sub poverty conditions, while their leaders live in nice houses and drive cadillacs, the resulting "self-determination" will never be in the best interests of the majority of the FN's. That's why it won't work.

Well said AF, and I would also like to say to Sandman that I have many first nation friend's as well. In fact my 3 best childhood friends are all natives and we shared our lives together fishing and laughing in the early years and are still great friends today. The truth always hurts I know but if the Indian people ever hope to conquer their enemies they must start from within first.
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Sandman

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2013, 08:24:45 AM »

The truth always hurts I know but if the Indian people ever hope to conquer their enemies they must start from within first.

Precisely.  Talk of cultural assimilation is not the answer.
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Sandman

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2013, 08:40:07 AM »

Just heard a CBC poll which suggests you may be wrong.....   about the regulations being contrary to what Canadians value.  I appreciate you may feel that way as do most of the opposition parties, however there seems to be a majority of Canadians that support the bill.

Do you have a link to those poll results?  As I said, there are many things in the bill that Canadians would support, it is the lumping in of the other (like the changes to environmental protection and reviews for lakes and rivers), that the Idle No More, and many other Canadians protest (in addition to the changes to the Indian Act without consultation with FN).
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2013, 12:09:16 PM »

Do you have a link to those poll results? 

It was on the late news last night.
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adriaticum

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2013, 12:11:42 PM »

Sandman,

You talk of "grassroots" movement. I think it's more "grass" than "roots".
Yes Trudeau tried to integrate them into society and they didn't want it.
That's why the situation they are in is of their own making.
I sure don't want my money going to support someone who doesn't want to live in my society.
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adriaticum

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Re: Idle No More?
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2013, 12:12:51 PM »

The truth always hurts I know but if the Indian people ever hope to conquer their enemies they must start from within first.

Hail Caesar!
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