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[Sandman]

It seems to me, that Fishhunter's original complaint was not against flossing (or bottom bouncing) nor even with continuing to fish for Springs, it was with the way the subsequent fish were being treated (hauled onto the rocks just to be kicked back in or passed to someone else).

[KP]

Wading in here on this topic.  I feel when I walk into a tackle shop or go online for a sportfishing license I must ask myself and everyone should think.  What do I intend to do and what do I really want here.  I purchase a license to go sportfishing.  That said what does that mean?  Well simply its me trying to fairly entice a fish to my creel so I may enjoy a good meal or have that feeling of calm serenity when I release my fish I have bested in a sporting manner.  So lets look back a few years to a time when things were a little clearer.  We had the sportfish and the commercial salmon.  At the time it was a distinction based on the ability of anglers to entice fish to take the gear presented generally.  So we had the Chinook and Coho on the sportfish side and the Chum, Sockeye and Pink on the commercial side.  Even today you see fisheries managers designating fishing priority opportunities using this scale.  Hence generally we fish before the commercial fishers for Chinook and vice versa when Sockeye become available.  History lesson done.  Now we come to present day anglers using methods we have developed to entice or harvest salmon.  Bottom bouncing methods in use on the Fraser is SNAGGING.  Plain and simple.  It doesn't really matter from a SPORTFISHING perspective where the hook ends up, it's still snagging.  Bar fishing on the other hand is the age old game of enticement and reward.

So when I fish during snagfest I am at peace knowing that to harvest my two sockeye a day I employ the method that works.  We are fishing only because a surplus of commercial sockeye is deemed available and as such I use my single strand of gillnet with a hook on the end of it.  So when I'm done catching my two sockeye and wish to catch a chinook I change my method of fishing so satisfy my sense of honor as a sportfisher and use gear to entice the fish in the age old test of wills.  In my mind if it was just about the meat in the freezer then that analogy could be used to harvest deer at night with a pittlamp.  Thank god it is not and is so easily enforced.  I wish SNAGGING chinooks under the disguise of sportfishing could be as easily enforced.  But alas it is not and it is up to each of us to live with ourselves and the methods we use.  If we lead by example i firmly believe we will one day see DFO make the distinction between fish harvested under a harvest license and let us keep our sportfishing license as it was intended. 

[JAwrey]

Gotta admit that I hear what Shifter is saying - but our neighbours to the south call it "drift fishing" as opposed to "float fishing".  They use bank sinkers, which are little bean-shaped leads, and present their offerings near the bottom.  Yes, the bait bounces on the bottom but to do it correctly, it should bounce very infrequently.  They also employ short leaders and small hooks to ensure that is doesn't become a snagfest.  Like up here.

The whole sockeye meat fest really just disgusts me.  I get so fed up of the sheer disrespect, disregard and stupidity that I'd rather go fish somewhere else.  If there's one thing that really gets my goat, it's watching people line the banks and use any means necessary to over-harvest a resource that we claim, as British Columbians, we value.  Perhaps some of us do, but the scene on the Fraser says otherwise.  Quite honestly, I believe that the DFO should, in the result of an infraction, not only take away the gear that the person was using, but confiscate their license and blacklist them.  I think there would be fewer over-harvestres iif they knew they would lose their gear and their license rights for a couple years, no?

J

[alwaysfishn]

Gotta admit that I hear what Shifter is saying - but our neighbours to the south call it "drift fishing" as opposed to "float fishing".  They use bank sinkers, which are little bean-shaped leads, and present their offerings near the bottom.  Yes, the bait bounces on the bottom but to do it correctly, it should bounce very infrequently.  They also employ short leaders and small hooks to ensure that is doesn't become a snagfest.  Like up here.

The whole sockeye meat fest really just disgusts me.  I get so fed up of the sheer disrespect, disregard and stupidity that I'd rather go fish somewhere else.  If there's one thing that really gets my goat, it's watching people line the banks and use any means necessary to over-harvest a resource that we claim, as British Columbians, we value.  Perhaps some of us do, but the scene on the Fraser says otherwise.  Quite honestly, I believe that the DFO should, in the result of an infraction, not only take away the gear that the person was using, but confiscate their license and blacklist them.  I think there would be fewer over-harvestres iif they knew they would lose their gear and their license rights for a couple years, no?

J

You are correct in your comments on the disrespect shown in this fishery. However you also need to put it into perspective by watching the FN food and ceremonial fishery for half a day. Some observations I have seen....  small sockeye and pinks tossed back in the river dead, sockeye caught, left sitting in the sun for hours and sometimes discarded, caught under food licenses and sold for cash......

Should the authorities focus on a large number of fishers that impact a few fish, or should they focus on a small number of fishers that have an impact on a huge number of fish? Sometimes it seems like they are doing neither....

[JAwrey]

So if you are caught going over the speed limit the cops should take your car away and blacklist you from driving, eh?

This is the typical, schoolyard "equivalency" argument, and I don't think it is valid here.  My point is that if the consequences vastly outweigh the benefits of over-harvest, and enforcement was high...do you think it would happen to the degree it does now?  I don't.

You are correct in your comments on the disrespect shown in this fishery. However you also need to put it into perspective by watching the FN food and ceremonial fishery for half a day. Some observations I have seen....  small sockeye and pinks tossed back in the river dead, sockeye caught, left sitting in the sun for hours and sometimes discarded, caught under food licenses and sold for cash......

Should the authorities focus on a large number of fishers that impact a few fish, or should they focus on a small number of fishers that have an impact on a huge number of fish? Sometimes it seems like they are doing neither....

I don't think that the DFO will ever truly target FN fisheries.  But I don't want to bring that aspect into this discussion, that's a whole 'nother can of worms...

J

[zabber]

DONT DRAG THE FISH ONTO THE BANK IF YOU HAVE YOUR LIMIT ALREADY!

Yes, this is covered on page 11 of the latest Synopsis.

CATCHES ARE NON TRANSFERABLE

I have not been able to find this mentioned in the Synopsis.

garbage: if you can pack it in, pack it out!

Classic outdoor etiquette...


Sorry to hear that you had such a sh!tty time on the river. Maybe try a more remote location next time? Or a better attitude? I had a good-to-great time at one of the more popular bars 3x in row. Yes, there were some things that were "wrong" and a bit irritating, but I just ignored them. When you're fishing at a place nicknamed "gong show," you -- sadly -- kinda gotta expect that that kind of stuff's going to happen. Get your fish, enjoy the sun + scenery, and get out. Don't let others ruin your day. 

[CohoJake]

I have seen flossing done with 2 foot leaders, and there are legitimate non-flossing techniques that use 6 foot and longer leaders (google "side-drifting" in Washington's Skagit river - an old method used for picky steelhead).  There isn't an easy way to limit the allowable fishing methods without cramping someone's style.   

[alwaysfishn]

Copied and pasted from another forum........

Latest assessment for the sockeye catch to date shows that the recreational sector has accounted for 11,070 fish to date. Thi is from a total catch to date of 1,189,030. This is less than 1% of the total harvest to date. We sure seem to spend an awful lot of time discussing less than 1% of the total harvest. By comparison, US Commies have 206,750, Canadian Commies have 304,660 and Canadian Aboriginals have 623,060 fish per group. AS a user group we sure get all bent out of shape about how we harvest our pittance. We really need to spend more time looking at the bigger picture.

Discuss amongst yourselves ;-)

Cheers


Commercial Catch
Canada
A & C    Areas 1-10    Net    0
F    Areas 1-10    Troll    0
G    Areas 123-127,11-12    Troll    0
B    Areas 11-16    PS    39,650
D    Areas 11-13    GN    98,040
H    Areas 12-16    Troll    8,900
H    Areas 18-29    Troll    800
B    Area 20    PS    0
B    Area 29    PS    0
E    Area 29    GN    119,180
FRA Econ. Opp. + BCI FN Demo    38,090
Canadian Total    304,660

United States
Alaska    Net&Troll    0
Washington
T.I. Areas 4B/5/6C    Net    19,820
T.I. Areas 6/7/7A    Net    110,010
N.I. Areas 7/7A    Net    76,920
Washington Total    206,750
U.S. Total    206,750

Non-commercial Catch
PSC Panel Area Test    21,500
PSC non-Panel Area Test    11,930
Fraser River Aboriginal (FSC)    388,690
Marine Aboriginal    234,370
Recreational    11,070
Charter (Albion & Qualark TF)    2,930
U.S. TI Ceremonial    7,130
ESSR    0
Non-comm. Total    677,620

Catch and Escapement
Catch Accounted-to-date    1,189,030
Potential Spawning Escapement (Mission esc. minus FN, sport & TF catch above Mission)    1,924,510
Total Accounted-to-date    3,113,540

[zabber]

I'd be interested to learn how they "account" for recreational fish. I mean, there's the stats guy at Scale that stops you and asks you about your catch when you're leaving, but other than that?

I was running some "estimates" thru my mind and figured: 2 fish a piece, 50 guys per bar per 3 hours; maybe 300 fish per bar per day? Say, 10 bars fished = 3000 fish/day...  10 days = 30,000 fish...

Lol, and I thought that was a "conservative" estimate :p

[alwaysfishn]

They account for the recreational catch by using the creel surveys, together with the helicopter flyovers which count the number of anglers, times the number of days.  Not many bars out there produce as well as the scale bar.....

[zabber]

They account for the recreational catch by using the creel surveys, together with the helicopter flyovers which count the number of anglers, times the number of days.  Not many bars out there produce as well as the scale bar.....

Do you know how many fish they count per angler? At Scale I estimated about 50 guys in the water, with a decent amount of turnover throughout the day; would think at least 150 visit that location per day. I don't believe 2 fish a head is unreasonable, considering the amount of guys catching for their families, giving fish away, poachers... Would probably need to account for fish mortality from guys CnRing "going for their spring" too...

I heard that Grassy, Gill, and Jones produce just as well as Scale, as does Peg Leg when the water's lower. That's 5 bars there, and my guess is that there are a few others...

But then, I'm sure DFOs factored that all in; I'm probably just overestimating, haha.

[jon5hill]

Wading in here on this topic.  I feel when I walk into a tackle shop or go online for a sportfishing license I must ask myself and everyone should think.  What do I intend to do and what do I really want here.  I purchase a license to go sportfishing.  That said what does that mean?  Well simply its me trying to fairly entice a fish to my creel so I may enjoy a good meal or have that feeling of calm serenity when I release my fish I have bested in a sporting manner.  So lets look back a few years to a time when things were a little clearer.  We had the sportfish and the commercial salmon.  At the time it was a distinction based on the ability of anglers to entice fish to take the gear presented generally.  So we had the Chinook and Coho on the sportfish side and the Chum, Sockeye and Pink on the commercial side.  Even today you see fisheries managers designating fishing priority opportunities using this scale.  Hence generally we fish before the commercial fishers for Chinook and vice versa when Sockeye become available.  History lesson done.  Now we come to present day anglers using methods we have developed to entice or harvest salmon.  Bottom bouncing methods in use on the Fraser is SNAGGING.  Plain and simple.  It doesn't really matter from a SPORTFISHING perspective where the hook ends up, it's still snagging.  Bar fishing on the other hand is the age old game of enticement and reward.

So when I fish during snagfest I am at peace knowing that to harvest my two sockeye a day I employ the method that works.  We are fishing only because a surplus of commercial sockeye is deemed available and as such I use my single strand of gillnet with a hook on the end of it.  So when I'm done catching my two sockeye and wish to catch a chinook I change my method of fishing so satisfy my sense of honor as a sportfisher and use gear to entice the fish in the age old test of wills.  In my mind if it was just about the meat in the freezer then that analogy could be used to harvest deer at night with a pittlamp.  Thank god it is not and is so easily enforced.  I wish SNAGGING chinooks under the disguise of sportfishing could be as easily enforced.  But alas it is not and it is up to each of us to live with ourselves and the methods we use.  If we lead by example i firmly believe we will one day see DFO make the distinction between fish harvested under a harvest license and let us keep our sportfishing license as it was intended. 

How do you justify spending the money on gear, gas, and time to go and snag fish when your interests are "filling the freezer"? You could just as easily go to the docks and buy the fish from the fisherman and save yourself gas, gear, time and money. If you participate in snagging for the explicit purpose of filling the freezer, there are 2 options here:

1. You are too dumb to see how it is more expensive to put a day on the river snagging instead of simply buying the fish from the docks.

or

2. You aren't explicitly snagging to fill your freezer, rather - you enjoy intentionally foul-hooking fish.

[chris gadsden]

I said I would not discus this again but most add this one note that I have said before and new readers of this forum may not have seem it.

We are now developing a new generation of people, especially young people and others that have just took up angling if we can call flossing that.

Many are not learning other ways to fish our rivers and now go after all species of fish that way and that is sad not to learn the art of making a fish take your offering .

[chris gadsden]

They account for the recreational catch by using the creel surveys, together with the helicopter flyovers which count the number of anglers, times the number of days.  Not many bars out there produce as well as the scale bar.....

The whole counting of salmon for all sectors is very unreliable. One year on the Vedder the stat's said there was more coho caught and released than entered the Chilliwack River hatchery.

[alwaysfishn]

How do you justify spending the money on gear, gas, and time to go and snag fish when your interests are "filling the freezer"? You could just as easily go to the docks and buy the fish from the fisherman and save yourself gas, gear, time and money. If you participate in snagging for the explicit purpose of filling the freezer, there are 2 options here:

1. You are too dumb to see how it is more expensive to put a day on the river snagging instead of simply buying the fish from the docks.

or

2. You aren't explicitly snagging to fill your freezer, rather - you enjoy intentionally foul-hooking fish.

What's the difference between "snagging" a fish yourself to fill your freezer versus having a commercial or native fisherman snag the fish (using a net) so you can buy it? Why should a person who "snags" his own fish be any more concerned about the cost of his gas and equipment than any person who goes fishing?

I know you are trying to make the point that you disapprove of the Fraser sockeye fishery, however your points are illogical and only make you sound elitist. The techniques you use and the amount you spend to go fishing are no better or worse than the techniques the "dumb" people use, or what it costs them to "fill their freezer".