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[Froodogga]

I agree with Milo, therefore, all fly fishermen should use a 12" to 18" leeder as well...

[jetboatjim]

Quote..."I think if you could only use those hooks , the salmon retention in the vedder would drop by at least 99%."


did you ever think they want a large harvest of salmon on the vedder/chilliwack ?

only so many for brood stock, and only so many can spawn without digging up earlier redds.

[milo]

I agree with Milo, therefore, all fly fishermen should use a 12" to 18" leeder as well...

Correct. When fishing full sink lines or sinking tips, you don't need more than a couple feet of leader.

Dry fly fishing is another story, but then again, snagging is not an issue when fishing dries.

As for circle hooks, they actually help you land fish more consistently than regular hooks. It's close to impossible for a fish to shake off a circle hook embedded in its mouth. Just make sure your hook set is solid. This generally means resist the urge to set the hook right away on the take. Wait one second and then set the hook.

[Gaffer]

Everybody knows BB is snag fish,snag fish is illegal.but BB is legal.I am so confused.

Bottom Bouncing IS Legal my friend but what makes it Unethical ( Not correct or proper) is the length of the leader ----in the US the BB method is used extensively for Salmon and Steelhead fishing and is quite productive BUT they use leaders of only 14 to 36 inches depending on conditions --ie Dirty water --short leader , gin clear-- lighter longer leader. What Chris & some others are talking about is the 10, 12, 14 FEET leaders used in Sockeye fishing on the Fraser--- Hope that clears up some of your questions---- Tight Lines/sharp hooks

[bigsnag]

So all flossers use long leaders? I can think of a couple types of water and instances where a 12-18" leader would be better for flossing than a 36" leader.

Its the anglers thought of mind and his/her actions that decide to floss (if theyre aware of what theyre doing), not their leader length, gear setup, gum boots or yellow rain coat that make them flossers. There are times when I go out in gum boots and rain gear yet I TRY not to floss fish, but it can still happen.

Look guys, its the MIND SET/thought of mind or whatever you want to call it of the angler that decides which method is used. I whole heartedly agree with all of you that snagging and flossing fish is
deplorable,unethical , yadda,yadda, yadda. We've said it all and have reguritated the rhetoric over and over again. Leader length is not the issue its whether the angler has premeditated thoughts to snag/floss or has had a momentary lasp in ethics .... Sometimes call a Brain Fart to engage in either tactic at any given moment.

We've all seen anglers hold back on their float and sweep a drift to snag/floss their way into a fish. We've all seen anglers rip their floats at every wiggle,dip and slant legiitimizing what they percieved was/is a bite.
I've seen anglers fish short floating a run then go through again using the "sweep method "and seen the ripping anglers change to the classic free drift float straight up and down without ripping through or at the end of his drift.  In both cases I've mentioned its clear it is the mind set in play.

I' glad this topic continues to surface as it shows the strong morallity and personal ethics of FWR forum members.
tight lines all

[SpringKing#1]

Quote..."I think if you could only use those hooks , the salmon retention in the vedder would drop by at least 99%."


did you ever think they want a large harvest of salmon on the vedder/chilliwack ?

only so many for brood stock, and only so many can spawn without digging up earlier redds.

Yes, my point was that 99% of all salmon in the vedder are flossed or snagged.

That might be the reason the dfo lets this type of fishing and volume of retention in the vedder.

[funpig]

I agree with Milo, therefore, all fly fishermen should use a 12" to 18" leeder as well...

Many people assume that all fly fishermen are flossers.

I prefer to flyfish on the Vedder using 3 - 6 feet of t-14 as a sink-tip and use about 3 feet of leader.  Any longer, it takes too long for the fly to sink down to the proper zone and I also start having problems with wind knots.  Quite frankly, my experience is that I get more bites in a faster current with a shorter leader than a long one because I can control the location of the fly better.  For the way I fish, the length of the leader has nothing to do with flossing (for or against).   I actually think that it is easier to snag with a shorter leader on the fly (less play in the line, easier to snag a fish with a firm tug).  But I could say the same thing with float fishing with a shorter leader;  it is all in how you yank on the rod as the hook passes through a run of fish.

I switched over from float fishing about 3 years ago to flyfishing.  I just enjoy the casting and the challenge of catching a salmon on a fly more than floatfishing.  And in my experience, I catch a hell of a lot less fish fly fishing than float fishing.  So where people get the idea that it is easier to kill fish by fly fishing, I don't know.

Some anglers assume or believe that short floating is the only (proper) way to fish on the river.  And this is simply not true.  Bottom bouncing aka drift fishing is practised widely in the U.S.  When I first took up river fishing, I read up on the subject and the preferred etiquette in the US for drift fishing is to give each other room and to take turns fishing from the top of a run down to the bottom of the run (I have never seen this in the float fishing community at the Vedder).  Same sort of thing with fly fisherman.  By the very nature of fly fishing, I cannot fish in a big crowd of people.  I have to find open water to cast and to drift.  It is not possible for me to stand at a meat hole shoulder to shoulder with about 5 - 10 feet separating anglers. 

On the other hand, the short floating method allows and encourages anglers to crowd together and kill fish in the most efficient manner.  All the meat holes at the Vedder are generally fished by the float method.  Float fishing allows an anglers to stand close to each other and to cast over each other and to really hammer a meat hole.  I can walk a hundred yards away from a crowd to fly fish, but as soon as I get a few hits, three or four float fishermen will usually come over and will crowd me out.  Not all, but more than a few have it in their heads that because they are using the "proper" method, they have some sort of priority over the water.   Some feel that because  a fly guy is hogging up a spot where they could easily fit four to six float fishermen, the fly guy should give way.  On any given spot of water, which would stress out or kill more fish:  one fly guy or four float fishermen?  That's fine, life's too short to argue.  I drove almost two hours for a day of fishing, so what's another 5 minutes to walk to another spot.

Of course, i cannot assume that all float fishermen are like this, but there are more than a few.

[Easywater]

All the meat holes at the Vedder are generally fished by the float method. 

The meat holes are bounced (or "bounced" with a float) not floated.

Fly fishing with T14 is the same as bouncing.

[milo]

Fly fishing with T14 is the same as bouncing.

I beg to differ.
You obviously have never made a serious attempt at fly fishing in rivers, but that's OK. It is common for young "know-it-alls" to make bold statements like the above. I am the father of a 16 y/o know-it-all, so I understand.

Fishing with t-14 can be the same as bouncing, but if you fish ethically and know what you are doing, a T-14 or even T-17 sinking tip is just another proverbial tool in the box.

[BwiBwi]

I don't know if you guys have noticed but it seems at days end it all comes down to how many fish you'be caught. 
If you catch alot, no matter what method you use many will call you names. 

As for me all I care is I'm fishing in a way that's least damaging to fish and if a fish got on my line and I won't be keeping I realease it
as carefully as I can.

[Easywater]

I beg to differ.
You obviously have never made a serious attempt at fly fishing in rivers, but that's OK. It is common for young "know-it-alls" to make bold statements like the above. I am the father of a 16 y/o know-it-all, so I understand.

Fishing with t-14 can be the same as bouncing, but if you fish ethically and know what you are doing, a T-14 or even T-17 sinking tip is just another proverbial tool in the box.

ha ha ha, you fly fishing elitists are hilarious.

Your only defense is to take a guess at my person and character and make disparaging remarks at what you hope is correct.

I've done more than my share of fly fishing, rivers included.

[koko]

ha ha ha, you fly fishing elitists are hilarious.

Your only defense is to take a guess at my person and character and make disparaging remarks at what you hope is correct.

I've done more than my share of fly fishing, rivers included.

If you read funpig carefully, he only use 3 to 6 ft TC-14 if you do a down stream swing you should know that only get down 2 to 4ft how is it BB, I guest when guys hold back the float when you using spinner that's flossing too. 

[Froodogga]

The truth of the matter is, flyfishermen (in rivers and streams) snag, bb, floss or whatever you wanna call it as much as anyone else...Just cuz they use a fly and flyrod and try to fool the average float/roe chucker with fancy terms like t-14, type VI, .008 tippet, hemostats etc, they think they can escape the reality of what they really do...I wouldn't even call it elitist, more accurately I'd call it hypocritical.  So, when you see a flyfisherman on the river or stream, being one with nature, wearing his $200 set of neos, pulling flies out of his $80 monochromed sterling silver plated fly box, creating a beautiful cast with his $600 rod and playing a fish on his $400 reel, feel comforted knowing he is no better than anyone else that snags, bbs, or flosses fish...Just cuz he's fly fishing, "don't assume" he's any better than anyone else, only assume he thinks he is...

[SpringKing#1]

The truth of the matter is, flyfishermen (in rivers and streams) snag, bb, floss or whatever you wanna call it as much as anyone else...Just cuz they use a fly and flyrod and try to fool the average float/roe chucker with fancy terms like t-14, type VI, .008 tippet, hemostats etc, they think they can escape the reality of what they really do...I wouldn't even call it elitist, more accurately I'd call it hypocritical.  So, when you see a flyfisherman on the river or stream, being one with nature, wearing his $200 set of neos, pulling flies out of his $80 monochromed sterling silver plated fly box, creating a beautiful cast with his $600 rod and playing a fish on his $400 reel, feel comforted knowing he is no better than anyone else that snags, bbs, or flosses fish...Just cuz he's fly fishing, "don't assume" he's any better than anyone else, only assume he thinks he is...

WOW , well said I 100% agree in the vedder at salmon season...

[funpig]

The truth of the matter is, flyfishermen (in rivers and streams) snag, bb, floss or whatever you wanna call it as much as anyone else...Just cuz they use a fly and flyrod and try to fool the average float/roe chucker with fancy terms like t-14, type VI, .008 tippet, hemostats etc, they think they can escape the reality of what they really do...I wouldn't even call it elitist, more accurately I'd call it hypocritical.  So, when you see a flyfisherman on the river or stream, being one with nature, wearing his $200 set of neos, pulling flies out of his $80 monochromed sterling silver plated fly box, creating a beautiful cast with his $600 rod and playing a fish on his $400 reel, feel comforted knowing he is no better than anyone else that snags, bbs, or flosses fish...Just cuz he's fly fishing, "don't assume" he's any better than anyone else, only assume he thinks he is...

I neither said nor thought that a fly fisherman is better than anyone else.  I just take issue with comments that all fly fishermen are flossers or that the only proper way to fish is to short float.  And I just find it ironic that float fishing is the only realistic way to fish under combat conditions like at Tamahi or KWB.

I do not doubt that there are a few unethical flyfishermen, but I am willing to bet that there are a hell of a lot more unethical anglers using the float method.

You can try and stereotype me as a flosser, elitist or some rich guy with really expensive poseur equipment, but you would just be wrong in your assumptions.