Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: milo on October 11, 2013, 08:50:19 AM
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What do you think of dividing the river into two differently regulated areas?
Leave the lower river below the Vedder crossing open to retention as per the current regs, and make the upper river (above the crossing) catch and release only for all species. It used to be that way for pink salmon several years ago.
It would be so easy to enforce (just park a CO at the crossing)!
The meat hunters, undisturbed by those pesky fly-fishing and other C&R purists, would have a crack at fresh fish, whereas the C&R crowd could enjoy a bit more solitude up river. A win-win in my books. What do you think?
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I dont keep everything I catch, but the fact I CAN keep something if I catch something nice is part of the reason I fish. I would be pretty annoyed to hook into a nice big hatch coho and have to throw it back 'cause Im upriver from the bridge. Would probably stop me from fishing there all together.
If the system is healthy, there is no reason to remove retention. Meat hunters have just as much right to the waterways as Catch and Release only fishermen(also when did flyfishing become a C&R purist activity?). Finally, I dont think this would really help with snaggers/poachers because they dont follow the rules anyways.
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Huh :o I think your idea is seriously flawed. Lots of people prefer fishing the mid and upper stretches Where in some spots you can find a little solitude and still keep a fish or two. I'd much rather see regulation changes in the way of retention of the larger chinook and amount of fish that can be harvested. There used to be tons of monster whites on the vedder 10 to 15 years ago and now they are far and few. I think we should protect these larger fish from the long liners and implement a size restriction. I also think that 4 salmon per day is excessive from the amount of people fishing the vedder. I'd be more than happy taking home a couple clean coho or whatever. It would also help clear up the river once the meat fishers got their 2 they can go home and leave their spots for other people on the river. Might be a way of lessening the crowding issues in the popular areas and cut down on roe poachers while creating more opportunity for people learning to fish.
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I wouldnt be a big fan of the idea. although it would help those poor fish it would funnel all of the poachers below and it would two timws more frustrating. I would speaking to a gentleman last saturday and he brought up an idea of some people having the ability to work along side dfo's. Where as a fisherman would have the ability to radio in reports of poachers at the spot they were fishing and have the nearest officer come check it out.
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I don't expect people to agree with me. On the contrary!
This idea has been around for a while, and I would like to get some insight from the angling community before elaborating a formal proposal to change some of the regs for the Chilliwack/Vedder system to help restore some of the quality to that fishery - a quality that has been seriously compromised lately by hordes of new anglers who show complete and utter disregard for regulations and etiquette.
Some very good observations so far, gang. Keep them coming. :)
...also when did flyfishing become a C&R purist activity?
Just some sarcasm directed mostly at myself. ;)
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I would rather see this river put into classified waters.
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How do u think a classified water will help this system?
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poachers pay no attention to regulations
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Some poachers will never change but how about the people killing 1 or 2 fresh fish for eating and then killing a couple booty does just for the roe and fertilizer. To me it's the same thing and a waste of fish. Lessening the limit to 2 would undoubtably make it so most were keeping mainly clean edible fish.
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I dont keep everything I catch, but the fact I CAN keep something if I catch something nice is part of the reason I fish.
X2
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I dont keep everything I catch, but the fact I CAN keep something if I catch something nice is part of the reason I fish.
X3
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Make retention of all salmon limited to one per day. Kill one fish, and you can't keep any more.
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There are lots of other river systems in the lower mainland that offer the opportunity for solitude and C&R fishing if that's what you're looking for. The Vedder is a public resource and one of the few hatchery enhanced rivers that create opportunities for catch retention for ALL types of fishers without endangering it's population. How about let the biologists determine what the allowable retention limits should be in order to maintain a healthy population. Sort of like the way it is now. They might just know little bit more, you know with all their science voo-doo and stuff, than the "highly educated" average fisher. ::)
It looks like an attempt by the elitist snobs to commandeer a beautiful river for their own personal use and to hell with the rest of the taxpaying public as they are not worthy of their tax contributions. Don't for a minute think that your license fee covers all costs involved in DFO and gives you a right to dictate who can and cannot fish where and when.
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It looks like an attempt by the elitist snobs to commandeer a beautiful river for their own personal use and to hell with the rest of the taxpaying public as they are not worthy of their tax contributions.
Yup.
And keep the garbage-throwing, disrespectful scum away from at least the upper reaches of the river. Anglers who leave their discarded crap on the banks of this beautiful river don't deserve to fish it.
In addition to recordings of blatant fishing violations, a collection of video shots is being made of people tossing their lure wraps, roe containers and other junk while fishing, but some legal issues have to be taken care of before it can be made public on Youtube. One of the most shocking shots is of a beek discarding a full spool of thick monofilament INTO the river! It sure will be nice to put some faces to those environmental criminals.
In the meantime, I suggest everyone pick after themselves - you are being watched. But more importantly, pick the garbage to prevent the river being taken away from you. A few rotten apples always spoil it for the rest. Don't whine tomorrow when you can no longer access the river because somebody was a pig and didn't take their crap out with them.
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I don't know how much reg changes would help. There are already regs in place that are blatantly disobeyed. Changes to the regs is just more beaurachracy and waste of time and budgets that could be spent on enforcement, The area I think we could improve. It seems I get checked less on the vedder than anywhere else.
I know it's a big river and hard to cover. It's been said many times that they could pay for their wages ten fold with only posting a co at meat holes
I would think a leader length restriction would be a good start tho. Maybe <36" or so at least help stop the flossing.
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I would think a leader length restriction would be a good start tho. Maybe <36" or so at least help stop the flossing.
Flossing can be done with any leader length. It is the anglers intent that causes flossed fish. A leader that is 8" long would be more productive in the pockets around slab, while a 8' leader would be more effective around the train bridge.
The guys that rip at the end of their drift and during their drift should all be fined for trying to snag fish. Do that for a season or two and voila problem solved...
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Yup.
And keep the garbage-throwing, disrespectful scum away from at least the upper reaches of the river. Anglers who leave their discarded crap on the banks of this beautiful river don't deserve to fish it.
In addition to recordings of blatant fishing violations, a collection of video shots is being made of people tossing their lure wraps, roe containers and other junk while fishing, but some legal issues have to be taken care of before it can be made public on Youtube. One of the most shocking shots is of a beek discarding a full spool of thick monofilament INTO the river! It sure will be nice to put some faces to those environmental criminals.
In the meantime, I suggest everyone pick after themselves - you are being watched. But more importantly, pick the garbage to prevent the river being taken away from you. A few rotten apples always spoil it for the rest. Don't whine tomorrow when you can no longer access the river because somebody was a pig and didn't take their crap out with them.
I have videoed quite a few violators but have never uploaded them anywhere. I really like the idea and I think the fear of public shaming is more of a deterrent than a fine.
You figure out the legal stuff and I would be glad to contribute some videos. AFAIK it is ok to video people in a public place.
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Perhaps maybe some type of core program like for hunting, more trash bins in popular areas, mail a copy of the reg books to everyone who buys a licence. Changing the regs to suit a handful of peoples needs will never work, and sadly what you propose would have little to no effect on the garbage problem , just look anywhere . Being a local i like having the option to go find my own piece of water in solitude where i can keep some fish if i chose, and that is usually in the upper and middle sections of the river. Go take a walk and explore there is 35km of river and the fish travel through it all. It's like going to a crowded spot and complaining when your lines get tangled and how busy it is. This is a very popular river and the population continues to grow , take it for what it is or don't go there.
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The guys that rip at the end of their drift and during their drift should all be fined for trying to snag fish. Do that for a season or two and voila problem solved...
I totally agree but those rocks feel like hits when your dragging the bottom. ::)
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All it does is to make the area below the bridge even more of a gong show.
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I don't think a boundary change is going to 'improve' the situation. There are a lot of reasons why the V-C fishing environment is the way it is some of which can't be addressed via regulation changes.
I doubt making the river a classified water would have a big effect. Look at the Thompson for example, classified water, no retention, not a lot of fish but lots of people pony up a couple of bucks and the river gets it's own sort of crowds.
Does the river really need hatchery enhancement? What stocks are endangered? All the native stocks are healthy so the only reason there is enhancement is to allow harvest - mostly in the tidal fishery and the river fishery is a by-product and a damn attractive one at that!
The only thing that could really change the fishery to something like quality throughout it's open section is a limited entry via a pay as you go day pass. That would keep most of the riff-raff away as if it costs more to fish than the value of the fish they take home they won't bother. It would also cut down on the people who fish it every bloody day.
Of course that won't happen anytime soon if at all.
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Hi Milo, thats an interesting question you pose and it does open up a slew of possibilities. I agree that what goes on leaves much to be desired. Flossing, ripping, meat only hunters, litter everywhere and more people showing a total disregard for the river than you can shake a stick at.
To your first question though. I don't like nor think that changing the reg's would help alleviate the problem. The last thing we need is more rules and with the rule you propose I can see people stacked up like cord wood on the lower river. The upper then would become a paradise for poacher's with almost no one around. Yes there are C&R purists but they are few and far between.
I do love the idea of videoing abusers and poachers but the legal quagmire is the problem there. Fix that and many of the guilty party will cease to exist as they would be to busy looking over their shoulder to see who's watching them.
Making the Vedder a classified river won't change much and Johnny Canuck's right. Flossing can be done with almost any length leader if the intent is there so a leader restriction would be useless and almost impossible to enforce.
Of all the ideas bandied about I think that the best ones are limiting the amount of fish people can keep and more dfo enforcement. I feel four fish is way to many, two would be fine for most people.
We absolutely without a doubt need more dfo checking people out. I did get checked on Wed. which is great and I told them that but it doesn't happen nearly enough. Increase our licence fees and hire more of the good guys.
Keep in mind that we are all tax paying citizens and all of us should have access to the beauty of paradise and the freedom that comes with it. It is only those that use and abuse this wonder of nature that should be punished, not all of us.
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Being able to keep a good fish that I might catch is a large part of the enjoyment and anticipation of my fishing trip. I certainly would not like to see the upper river become C&R as the lower river is sometimes just too limiting.
C&R is often a justification for snagging. It is almost OK because it will be let go. On the other hand, if it is desired to retain a fish, make sure it is hooked in the mouth.
Rather than shut down fishing, how about opening the river from Slesse Creek to Chilliwack Lake for C&R?
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most stupidest thing i have heard all weekend !
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Did you also take into consideration the implication it would have towards the hatchery program? With the state it's already in and cut backs, lowering retention and creating a c&r environment would only give more reason for the government to hold back on funding. I would rather see a more proactive watch dog program put in place where hatchery employees and their volunteers can report violations to DFO and have them be recognized as a non confrontational yet accountable source of info which officers could respond to expediently. They would have the same level of authority as parking meter attendants.
As far as garbage is concerned, I agree with the blatant disrespect of some individuals, but not all blame can be put on anglers because last I checked, most of the filth I've encountered were located around most roadside campsites.
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There are 4 other rivers in the Lower Mainland with big DFO hatcheries on them. Other than Cap, the others are much less crowded than the Ved. There are a buttload of other rivers without large hatchery production where you can go and find uncrowded quality fishing. Many of these other rivers have no retention, or only 1 fish. You have the type of waters you seek, in Squamish, Seymour, Chehalis, north Fraser tribs, south Fraser tribs, etc. The Vedder is the only river that offers a true meat fishery, if one seeks it. Why take that away?
Open the Vedder up to 8 coho a day, 4 springs any size. Your tax dollars are paying for them, why not get some benefit from it? These fish are there to be caught.
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Open the Vedder up to 8 coho a day, 4 springs any size. Your tax dollars are paying for them, why not get some benefit from it? These fish are there to be caught.
It would be best to save the trolling for the open seas wouldn't you think?
This thread really comes down to ethics nothing more.
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No trolling. What's unethical about harvesting hatchery salmon legally? Each year ~70% of all the coho and Chinook swim into the hatchery and end up in a fish tote. Open 'er up.
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No trolling. Open 'er up.
Think you might have just done that nibs ;D
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No trolling. What's unethical about harvesting hatchery salmon legally? Each year ~70% of all the coho and Chinook swim into the hatchery and end up in a fish tote. Open 'er up.
I was referring to Milo's underlying point of view and what the root of this thread is really about.
Nothing wrong with harvesting hatchery fish...that's why they're there, but how sustainable would an 8 coho and no size limit quota be based on the numbers of brood stock released? If you're serious about not trolling then you need to rethink your numbers.
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Open the Vedder up to 8 coho a day, 4 springs any size. Your tax dollars are paying for them, why not get some benefit from it? These fish are there to be caught.
That is just going to create more snagging/flossing and more crowds.
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I would rather see a more proactive watch dog program put in place where hatchery employees and their volunteers can report violations to DFO and have them be recognized as a non confrontational yet accountable source of info which officers could respond to expediently. They would have the same level of authority as parking meter attendants.
I really think blaydRnr has a great idea here Milo. Why not have extra eyes on the river via hatchery employees or volunteers ?
It would certainly ease some of the pressure off of dfo and make the transgressors a little more nervous about doing what they know they should'nt be doing. Good thinking blaydRnr !!!
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leader lengths should be no more than 18 inch.Long leaders should be fined heavily.
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Interesting topic, but once again a slant towards elitism(sp). I was on the river the other day, lower area near Yarrow. Watched a couple of guys pull out some nice coho fishing in a very appropriate manner. They were not beaks! But, when they left they did leave a bag of garbage behind, probably by mistake, but none the less left behind. So to insinuate that all people who leave garbage are beaks or "scum", (I hate your use of this word,scum, Milo to describe people), is wrong.
Change of regs: two fish per day..any salmon species on the Vedder if person is keeping. The idea of splitting the river in half though is not one I would like to see. I like to fish several areas of the river, do not want to be limited. As several people have pointed out there is lots of room and those who don't like to be near the meat fisherman etc. can move on to quieter spots.
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Not in favour of giving up anymore freedom to fish.Just another thin excuse to do so because the fishery is abused by a small minority.This never works.It is however a very convenient knee jerk solution.I for one have been limited and chased out of one prime area after another in the lower mainland by well intentioned bureaucrats who always seem to use this as their main approach.Years ago the limit hole was open to the same dimension as the regs for every other hatchery.Whining about the same abuses occurring everwhere else on the river brought about a temporary then permanent closure of that portion.Was up there last week and the only people getting the benifit of this were a bunch of people ignoring the signs and fingering anyone who tells them the area is closed.Good to see some C.O.s there but I would support more.Also some that would do some hiking and not just holes at the side of the road.More fees.More C.O.s Less interference.
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I,m not in favor of changing any access to the river.We have already lost a lot in the 35 years i,ve fished it.If anything we shoud all respect the resourse we have here and fight to keep it.There is already half the river cloed above the hachery.Play fair and try to educate others,there is not enough DFO to do it alone.
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Some very intelligent input on this thread. Thanks.
So far I can conclude that no one is in favour of rezoning the river; everyone is in favour of more education, more vigilance, and more enforcement; and most people would also agree to a 2 instead of the current 4 salmon daily quota.
So to insinuate that all people who leave garbage are beaks or "scum", (I hate your use of this word,scum, Milo to describe people), is wrong.
Merritt boy, I am sorry you feel that way about the word "scum', but I am only using it as suggested by Merriam-Webster and other respected and comprehensive dictionaries of the English language, to denote
a low, vile, or worthless person or group of people
I can't help it, but anyone who deliberately leaves garbage behind them in the nature falls into this category in my books. And the only reason they do it is because there are people like Chris Gasdsen who diligently pick up after them and because there is no consequence to them for their actions. To make a point, yesterday I picked up nine Tim Horton's empty cups and three empty roe containers from the ground at a Vedder river parking spot. Trust me, those were ALL fishing vehicles parked there as it is nowhere near any popular recreational trail.
Like, how difficult is to leave your empty coffee cup in your vehicle and dispose of it properly?
BTW, yesterday I witnessed a Chinese man play a foul hooked spring, walk it downstream where he thought he was not being seen, look over his shoulder to make sure he wasn't being watched, and then proceed to unhook the fish, bonk it and walk with it victoriously back to his friends. I would swear one of his friends criticized him for bonking a foul-hooked fish (Can't guarantee it, I don't understand Cantonese), but the body language was quite clear. Too bad I didn't have my good camera with me to film it.
If the person who criticized him is a FWR member and is reading this - kudos to you, but next time go all the way and throw the fish back in the river, even if it is dead. Letting your friend keep his foul-hooked fish sends the wrong message.
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BTW, yesterday I witnessed a Chinese man play a foul hooked spring, walk it downstream where he thought he was not being seen, look over his shoulder to make sure he wasn't being watched, and then proceed to unhook the fish, bonk it and walk with it victoriously back to his friends. I would swear one of his friends criticized him for bonking a foul-hooked fish (Can't guarantee it, I don't understand Cantonese), but the body language was quite clear.
Hey Milo BTW, how can you pick out a Chinese man within the Asian community? Just because they have black hair and yellow skin DOES NOT mean that he is chinese. If you have not noticed that Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese have the same color hair and skin. And, since you don't understand cantonese, how do you know that he is speaking cantonese? It seems like that you like to bash any fisherman who is Asian and especially Chinese. You don't understand cantonese but you seem to be able to read body language. How is body language able to distinguish what his friend criticized him for? I thought you were out there fishing? and not looking to discriminate anyone?
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Hey Milo BTW, how can you pick out a Chinese man within the Asian community? Just because they have black hair and yellow skin DOES NOT mean that he is chinese. If you have not noticed that Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese have the same color hair and skin. And, since you don't understand cantonese, how do you know that he is speaking cantonese? It seems like that you like to bash any fisherman who is Asian and especially Chinese. You don't understand cantonese but you seem to be able to read body language. How is body language able to distinguish what his friend criticized him for? I thought you were out there fishing? and not looking to discriminate anyone?
Hit a sensitive string, didn't I?
I have a Master's Degree in Linguistics and speak 6 languages fluently, and I have worked as a language professional (interpreter, translator and language teacher) for over 25 years. During my ongoing linguistics research, I have become well acquainted with accent, intonation, stress, rhythm and with numerous individual words and phrases in at least 20 other languages - Mandarin, Cantonese, Korean and Japanese being among them. With proper training, you don't need to understand a language in order to recognize a language. That's how.
As to your insinuation of even a trace of racism in my post, get over it. I bash any fisherman who disregards the resource regardless of their ethnicity, but I am especially vitriolic about those who come from my old country.
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(Can't guarantee it, I don't understand Cantonese),
This is from your original post, yet NOW you claim that you are acquainted with cantonese. CONTRADICTION or what!!!
HAVE A NICE DAY!!!!!!!!
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This is from your original post, yet NOW you claim that you are acquainted with cantonese. CONTRADICTION or what!!!
I wonder if this is even worth my time on the keyboard, but here it goes anyways:
As a linguist, I recognize Cantonese, just like I recognize a couple dozen more languages. I am familiar with many of their phonetical and phonological features, allophonic rules (think of them as sound clues), and their grammar. You don't need to speak or understand a language to know a language.
Hope this clears your confusion.
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The river system and it's litter is a reflection of a bigger problem. Look all over, you will see garbage. Where ever people can dump they will. Our highways, city streets etc are filled with litter. I make an effort to help out by picking up left behind, line, hooks etc., but sometimes I am just too lazy to pick up after others. It is a very sad commentary of our society. As a former teacher I spent a lot of time stressing the importance of being responsible and picking up after yourself. What I have seen is that as kids got older they took on more of a who cares attitude, otherwise let someone else clean the garbage. Very sad! It's a tough battle...
Milo, nothing wrong with mentioning what you saw, but mentioning his race is probably not needed. Who cares what race he was. And regarding his friend grabbing the fish and throwing it back in the water, realistically, how many of us would do that.
The idea of having volunteers policing the river and telling people how to fish, could be a problem. If I am using a leader length that you might not agree with, but I am within the law, I might not appreciate it. Maybe what could be done is have a few people produce some how to pamphlets and stand near busy areas and hand them out as guys go in or out of these trouble areas, ie. Keith Wilson bridge. Some of these flyers might end up on the ground, but some will be read and learned from.. JMO!
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Milo, I am ashamed to think that a linguist (of more than 25 years, might I add) would resort to hiding behind his academic background to justify pointing out a snagger's race. There are snaggers that come from all corners of the globe. It is "nice" that you "bash any fisherman who disregards the resource regardless of their ethnicity, but I am especially vitriolic about those who come from my old country". However, you recognizing that this particular individual was Chinese due to the phonological and prosodic elements in his speech is beside the global point that I hoped you were getting at with this entire thread, and a post like the one in question only serves to perpetrate racial stereotypes.
I think we can all agree that a poacher is a poacher.
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There are 4 other rivers in the Lower Mainland with big DFO hatcheries on them. Other than Cap, the others are much less crowded than the Ved. There are a buttload of other rivers without large hatchery production where you can go and find uncrowded quality fishing. Many of these other rivers have no retention, or only 1 fish. You have the type of waters you seek, in Squamish, Seymour, Chehalis, north Fraser tribs, south Fraser tribs, etc. The Vedder is the only river that offers a true meat fishery, if one seeks it. Why take that away?
Open the Vedder up to 8 coho a day, 4 springs any size. Your tax dollars are paying for them, why not get some benefit from it? These fish are there to be caught.
A pretty valid point about the excess # of hatchery fish. Back in the 80s the limit was 8 for a time. Coho production was ramped up for the Expo tourist rush. Why not truck them back down to #1 Bridge?
I don't agree that the other hatchery fisheries are less crowded. Inch creek isn't huge but that area still gets pretty crowded plus has it's contingent of snaggers. The Chehalis can be worse than the V-C below the canyon.
Chilliwack coho do not need hatchery enhancement. That's done only to provide a harvest fishery. I don't think we have a right to fish as often as we want when we want or kill fish in double digits over a season. Best to keep the river in as natural a state as possible IMO.
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THANKS, leaping steely, you said it, RIGHT!!!!
Hey Milo, why do you try to talk your way out? A racist comment is a racist comment!
And please don't keep mentioning your 25 years this and that B.S. Just keep it to yourself.
Thanks
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For the record.Can we stick to the topic at hand?I am not in favour of a reduction to two fish.Many working stiffs invest much time and money in their sport.Some go years without a limit.When they do it is a re-ward for the effort.I do not wish to see the many punished for the actions of the few.
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THANKS, leaping steely, you said it, RIGHT!!!!
Hey Milo, why do you try to talk your way out? A racist comment is a racist comment!
And please don't keep mentioning your 25 years this and that B.S. Just keep it to yourself.
Can someone please explain how Milo was being racist? Like snagging, racism comes down to intent in my opinion. So what if he said it was a Chinese guy that kept a foul hooked fish? If anything you thinking that's racism says more about you than about Milo.
Just yesterday while fishing I had a guy get my attention by saying, "hey buddy, white guy / blue jacket". Was that racist? I think people are just far too sensitive and apply their own preconceived notions about intent (a result of their own prejudices) on the people around them.
Back on track:
I'm all for dropping it to a 2 salmon limit.
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Can someone please explain how Milo was being racist? Like snagging, racism comes down to intent in my opinion. So what if he said it was a Chinese guy that kept a foul hooked fish? If anything you thinking that's racism says more about you than about Milo.
Just yesterday while fishing I had a guy get my attention by saying, "hey buddy, white guy / blue jacket". Was that racist? I think people are just far too sensitive and apply their own preconceived notions about intent (a result of their own prejudices) on the people around them.
Please read his entire post before you comment. Milo particularly said that it was a Chinese/Cantonese man. Why be so specific? The guy who got your attention yesterday did not pin point you as a white (jewish, polish, american, etc.) Milo could of just said Asian, or a guy fishing, and leave it at that. Racism exists and THAT is reality, either against Asians, Indo-Canadians, Mid-Eastern and so forth. The point here is that Milo specifically said Chinese/Cantonese man. The post is that he saw some guy who was not fishing properly. RIGHT?????
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I as well see in no way shape or form Milos post being at all racist.
IMHO the only reason that he did not just say "Asian" was that he had the ability/knowledge to be a bit more specific.
Now if he was specifically writing a rant regarding and ousting some "specific ethnicity" person or group in a way that he viewed that the the person/groups ethnicity is the direct cause of said issue THEN it may be a different story, but its not.
Imho people with too much time on their hands sometimes read WAY more into things and end up creating something out of nothing much too often in this world these days. Unfortunately I see it much too often while working worldwide but Milo's post was nothing more than an educated observation as he has the knowledge available to make that differentiation.
Now as for the OP....I would be for whatever changes would work in order to reduce the # of anglers fishing that choose for whatever reason to disregard regulations, leave trash, etc, etc....I think if the prov was able to do that as a whole some way then it would rid a good majority of the anglers that unfortunately really just don't give a s**t and end up directly or indirectly causing most of these "issues". As i've seen mentioned before in other threads, I would be in favor of higher license fees (with a bit of a break of course for seniors/disability and maybe students) in addition to a fishing test.
This I truly believe would get rid of alot of the riffraff so to speak and the extra funds from higher licensing and/or test fee I believe would be significantly increased compared to the current system which would allow for more funds to be placed appropriately. ie; better presence of enforcing authority's. Would thin the true beaks and "no cares" substantially I think. Then we wouldn't have to worry about splitting rivers, changing quotas, etc, etc. Just my opinion though.
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I as well don't think Milo was being racist. Lets get this back on topic ehhh. Should we change the regs or not ? Input and viewpoints are what we are looking for.
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I doubt lowering the limit will do much to reduce the rippers and snaggers unless you set the limit to 0. Its an unfortunate result of ease of accessibility and healthy returns.
Regs should be changed when needed to protect the returns, not because you are too pure to stand beside a 'meat fisherman', whatever that means. If they are fishing legally and ethically then if they limit out whether it be 2 or 4 fish, then good on them.
I'd rather just see the current rules strongly enforced for compliance. I was checked by fisheries officers on a walking trail last week for license and barbed hook, which was nice to see, but 5 minutes later I hit a different run to see a group of 5 dragging in nasty pinks butt-backwards and right into a garbage bag. The limit for pinks is already 2 but that didnt stop them from making the trip out and going nuts on those humpys.
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I dont think Milo was beeing racist either.
I also dont think changing the regs would affect the amount of rippers on the river. I like the idea of a core program in order to get a fishing license. I really cant see anything ever changing unless there was more officers checking the river and handing out fines.
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The only time I fish the Vedder gong show is if my friends invite me and I go just more for the social aspect if hanging with my friends.
I would rather fish other systems in more solitude with less chances at hooking and retaining fish.
That being said IMO about the question at hand I think the Vedder fishery was created so that people can take fish home. Changing the boundaries is not the answer. The only answer for this system is ENFORCEMENT!!! That is the only thing that will create a better experience for those that choose to fish in such an environment.
BTW being a good friend of Milo's I can speak and say he is the furthest thing from a racist. Best to just drop that from this topic as it's a non issue
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That being said IMO about the question at hand I think the Vedder fishery was created so that people can take fish home. Changing the boundaries is not the answer. The only answer for this system is ENFORCEMENT!!!
Well if thats the case where are my fish ? Went to the Vedder thinking most people would be celebrating Thanksgiving dinner tonight and with high tide at 3 pm and at 14 ft. everything looked perfect. Problem was nobody told the other 500 people to stay home and eat, lol. Well long story short, no fish and tons of people. Oh well, next time.
And BB hit the nail right on the head. More enforcement is the most logical and most preventative method we have. Either through a volunteer system or hiring more of the good guys this is the best route to take. I also strongly believe that public
shaming is a great tool to for those that act dishonestly and show a blatant disregard. Video is the best way or maybe wanted posters on poles showing a pic and outlining the persons transgression. ;D
Go Bronco's !!!!
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Enforcement it is, then.
I will start recording more video.
Rodney, what's your policy on posting video showing people blatantly breaking the rules?
Is it OK to post when the people's faces and ethnic background are clearly visible (and audible) in the segments?
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So does this mean that every time someone is seen bringing a pink in backwards or using a longer leader or float line, they should be videoed and publicly shamed.. Come on... I know what you are talking about, but we pay people to enforce the rules. I don't want to see the power given to volunteers who may lack judgement or demonstrate their personal biases. I think people need to be very careful if taking pictures or videos of people (they feel) are fishing inappropriately. I certainly hope that such videos are not shown on this site. Don't feel that it is the right forum. On a lighter side, I could see a lot of guys getting caught skipping work, or being caught by their wives. lol.
Raising fees, no way, unless we know for a fact that the money is going to be put where it belongs. That is not happening now so what is going to change. I pay too many taxes etc already, no more...
As well, I don't feel that Milo was being racist, but mentioning that the guy snagging was Chinese was not needed. No real defense on this...
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Hit a sensitive string, didn't I?
I have a Master's Degree in Linguistics and speak 6 languages fluently, and I have worked as a language professional (interpreter, translator and language teacher) for over 25 years. During my ongoing linguistics research, I have become well acquainted with accent, intonation, stress, rhythm and with numerous individual words and phrases in at least 20 other languages - Mandarin, Cantonese, Korean and Japanese being among them. With proper training, you don't need to understand a language in order to recognize a language. That's how.
As to your insinuation of even a trace of racism in my post, get over it. I bash any fisherman who disregards the resource regardless of their ethnicity, but I am especially vitriolic about those who come from my old country.
Quoted for posterity,
We are in the presence of a superior human being folks. Milo is so superior he needs to remind us of it in writing. It's kind of like some guy telling you how great he really is despite the fact that he's been divorced 4 times and his kids don't talk to him anymore lol.
"I bash any fisherman who disregards the resource regardless of their ethnicity, but I am especially vitriolic about those who come from my old country."
I'm curious tho' Why you have such extra hatred for your former countrymen. That be Yugoslavia, right? Didn't you folks sort of tear yourself apart on ethnic hatred in the 90s and then annoyed the Europeans so much that NATO bombed you?
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Quoted for posterity,
We are in the presence of a superior human being folks. Milo is so superior he needs to remind us of it in writing. It's kind of like some guy telling you how great he really is despite the fact that he's been divorced 4 times and his kids don't talk to him anymore lol.
"I bash any fisherman who disregards the resource regardless of their ethnicity, but I am especially vitriolic about those who come from my old country."
I'm curious tho' Why you have such extra hatred for your former countrymen. That be Yugoslavia, right? Didn't you folks sort of tear yourself apart on ethnic hatred in the 90s and then annoyed the Europeans so much that NATO bombed you?
Amen
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I'm curious tho' Why you have such extra hatred for your former countrymen. That be Yugoslavia, right? Didn't you folks sort of tear yourself apart on ethnic hatred in the 90s and then annoyed the Europeans so much that NATO bombed you?
It's not hatred; it's frustration. Frustration for blowing up a country that had been the envy of East and West.
The same frustration I feel when I see you write yet another useless post that contributes nothing to a topic at hand.
But I should be used to it by now...your notoriousness for blowing up good discussion threads far exceeds your good looks.
As you were...
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So does this mean that every time someone is seen bringing a pink in backwards or using a longer leader or float line, they should be videoed and publicly shamed..
No, everybody can foul hook a fish and drag it to the beach (although it's preferable to break it off). That is not an offense.
But dragging a fish by the tail to the beach, and then bonking it to keep it is a very different matter.
As for long leaders, if there is a leader length restriction in place (it's coming, I am sure of that), anyone fishing with far too much leader beyond the regulated length would be breaking the rules, so they could be potential video fodder. Why not?
Nothing hurts people more than public shame and a hit on their wallet.
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As for long leaders, if there is a leader length restriction in place (it's coming, I am sure of that), anyone fishing with far too much leader beyond the regulated length would be breaking the rules, so they could be potential video fodder. Why not?
So Milo, will that leader restriction include fly fishermen/women as well that use 12 ft. tapered leaders. Hipocrisy much.
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So Milo, will that leader restriction include fly fishermen/women as well that use 12 ft. tapered leaders. Hipocrisy much.
Absolutely. When fishing for migrating Pacific salmon in moving water, there's no need to use long leaders to effectively fish using sinking tips. Besides, who fishes for salmon with tapered leaders? Totally unnecessary.
Fishing with a full floating line is a different matter altogether, but it is easy to make an exception and allow long leaders due to the specific nature of the technique (used in frog water). Intentional snagging is not an issue anyway when you use a full floating line.
Please don't get so bent with the fly fishing thing. Although it is my favourite form of fishing, I also enjoy drift fishing a lot.
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Well said Milo, I agree 100%.
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So milo what sort of leader length do you propose?
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So milo what sort of leader length do you propose?
Don't know, JC...does one meter (three feet) sound reasonable?
Sure, it is still plenty to get the occasional fish flossed, but at least it covers much less water than the current 10 feet currently used by the Vedder snaggers, making it much more difficult to achieve a "legal snag" (in the mouth). And it is enough for the FF crowd to keep the fly in the zone when using adequate sink tips.
I know that restricting leader length cannot regulate intent, but we need to start somewhere. As it is, it is a free-for-all gong-show out there.
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Don't know, JC...does one meter (three feet) sound reasonable?
Sure, it is still plenty to get the occasional fish flossed, but at least it covers much less water than the current 10 feet currently used by the Vedder snaggers, making it much more difficult to achieve a "legal snag" (in the mouth). And it is enough for the FF crowd to keep the fly in the zone when using adequate sink tips.
I know that restricting leader length cannot regulate intent, but we need to start somewhere. As it is, it is a free-for-all gong-show out there.
The more "skilled" snaggers I see at slab, borden and tamahi only seem to use 6-8" leaders.
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The more "skilled" snaggers I see at slab, borden and tamahi only seem to use 6-8" leaders.
When you know how to use it, size doesn't matter. ;D
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When you know how to use it, size doesn't matter. ;D
That's been my motto as well ;)
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When you know how to use it, size doesn't matter. ;D
Well then you see a leader restriction won't make a difference...
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Well then you see a leader restriction won't make a difference...
Oh, c'mon JC, show some humour for a change. ;)
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Milo, what would your proposal for leader length be? I think 36 to 48 would be fair enough. I know we are mainly talking about the Vedder but what about socks on the Fraser. Like a few others have said, flossing, snagging I mean can be done with all lengths. Who makes this decision on leaders,as I know that DFO people I have spoken with have little concern with lengths unless you are talking 10-12feet... Do you really think that they have the time to go around measuring leader length though? What about hook size, line size etc? Is it your idea to make the river available to just a CERTAIN group of anglers? Seems like this.
I want to see some volunteer fish police on the rivers with their matching jackets and hats all carrying video cameras. Would be cute... Lol.
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I want to see some volunteer fish police on the rivers with their matching jackets and hats all carrying video cameras. Would be cute... Lol.
Any thoughts merrittboy how that could be funded?
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Milo, what would your proposal for leader length be? I think 36 to 48 would be fair enough.
I replied to that question a few posts above.
If you actually took the time to read what is posted, you'd be much cuter in my eyes...::)
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I replied to that question a few posts above.
If you actually took the time to read what is posted, you'd be much cuter in my eyes...::)
Relax, my mistake, I had not read all the posts. Not a biggy. Lol.
And Dave, sorry, I was trying to be funny... Poor attempt I guess. :-[ I honestly do not recommend volunteer fish police. Would be waste of time, my opinion...
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It's not hatred; it's frustration. Frustration for blowing up a country that had been the envy of East and West.
The same frustration I feel when I see you write yet another useless post that contributes nothing to a topic at hand.
But I should be used to it by now...your notoriousness for blowing up good discussion threads far exceeds your good looks.
As you were...
Funny, it was you who mentioned that tidbit about "Chinese snaggers" and got called out on it by other members here. I suppose you could not have just said "Snaggers..." without the ethnic focus, eh?
Oh an you mention my "good looks"? That's my wife's territory haha. I didn't think you looked at me that way as I'm a guy but whatever floats your boat MIlo lol.
And glad you admitted at least your prejudice against former Yugoslavians. It's not easy to admit that sort of thing but perhaps in time you will chill out and look at everyone as Canadians first - not their ethnic background. Perhaps you should fish more and post less?
""Milo: I bash any fisherman who disregards the resource regardless of their ethnicity, but I am especially vitriolic about those who come from my old country.""
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I don't think that any reg changes will help out at all. Its the fact that people don't read the regs, or rules. Yes maybe a size thing would help, but even then i talked to a guy that thought salmon were salmon and didn't know there were different salmon out there.
I would say a course or program like the C.O.R.E would be better. May be extreme but you know what people may actually learn something about the fish they are catching, methods, and etiquette.
Yes there will always be boneheads but it limits them.
get you licence and you have to renew ever few years, and if you have poaching or bad etiquette on your angler number, then you don't get the chance to fish for a while until you prove that you are suitable to be on the water
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Funny, it was you who mentioned that tidbit about "Chinese snaggers" and got called out on it by other members here. I suppose you could not have just said "Snaggers..." without the ethnic focus, eh?
Why not? Why not the ethnic focus? You afraid of it?
Suppressing the ethnic element is what builds racism and xenophobia. Just look back into our very own Canadian history and the attempts at assimilating our very own First Nations.
Oh an you mention my "good looks"? That's my wife's territory haha. I didn't think you looked at me that way as I'm a guy but whatever floats your boat Milo lol.
It was a humorous jab, but since you completely lack a sense of humour you didn't get it. "Far exceeds your good looks" means there is not really much to look at. But I agree, it is your wife's territory. My boat floats straight, thank you very much.
And glad you admitted at least your prejudice against former Yugoslavians. It's not easy to admit that sort of thing but perhaps in time you will chill out and look at everyone as Canadians first - not their ethnic background.
My frustration (NOT prejudice) is based on the fact that most of them cannot and will not see themselves as Canadians first. They left their land for a better life and now they complain about the land that has provided them with a safe haven and an opportunity to live a decent life and bring up their kids in peace and relative prosperity. But they only socialize in their own little secluded communities and worship the same gods they worshipped at home and look down at some of us who chose a different path (like marrying an Anglo-Saxon woman, for example). To all such people I say: "Go back where you came from and don't let the door kick you in the butt."
But what irks me the most is they continue to use fishing and hunting methods they practiced in the old country even though they know they are FORBIDDEN in Canada.
Milo: I bash any fisherman who disregards the resource regardless of their ethnicity, but I am especially vitriolic about those who come from my old country."
I say what I mean and mean what I say. You can keep quoting me for as long and as often as you want - at least I am quotable. ;D
Trying to belittle my feelings about my former country is another story altogether. Just try to picture a man whose mother's people engaged in a bloody civil war against his father's people at a time when everybody had to choose a side. It is some tough $hit to overcome, but I think I did. I dislike everybody equally. ;D
Perhaps you should fish more and post less?
This coming from someone who posts almost as much as I do? ::)
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Let's get this show back on the road.
I would say a course or program like the C.O.R.E would be better. May be extreme but you know what people may actually learn something about the fish they are catching, methods, and etiquette.
get you licence and you have to renew ever few years, and if you have poaching or bad etiquette on your angler number, then you don't get the chance to fish for a while until you prove that you are suitable to be on the water
I think that is an excellent idea, Moe. :) A CORE-like program (and exam) as a pre-requisite to get your fishing license.
- You can't tell a coho from a spring? Sorry, try again next year.
- You don't speak English? There is plenty of free English classes sponsored by our Government. Learn the language and come back next year.
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Not a bad idea to keep the meat fishers and all the bagage/garbage that comes with it to the lower river Milo. Yesterday some clown with a tackle box tried to keep a wild coho when there was fewer witnesses around. I took his picture and recorded his car license plate etc. To his should I say credit he put the dieing fish back in the river. Said something to the effect of "you one of those people who not like keeping wild fish".
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I dislike everybody equally. ;D
Best line I've read all day. Thanks Milo, wonderful :) ;D :)
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Funny, it was you who mentioned that tidbit about "Chinese snaggers" and got called out on it by other members here. I suppose you could not have just said "Snaggers..." without the ethnic focus, eh?
Oh an you mention my "good looks"? That's my wife's territory haha. I didn't think you looked at me that way as I'm a guy but whatever floats your boat MIlo lol.
And glad you admitted at least your prejudice against former Yugoslavians. It's not easy to admit that sort of thing but perhaps in time you will chill out and look at everyone as Canadians first - not their ethnic background. Perhaps you should fish more and post less?
""Milo: I bash any fisherman who disregards the resource regardless of their ethnicity, but I am especially vitriolic about those who come from my old country.""
Sounds to me like you have a problem with Milo why not take that to PM and actually contribute something to this thread.
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So milo what sort of leader length do you propose?
Don't know, JC...does one meter (three feet) sound reasonable?
I know that restricting leader length cannot regulate intent, but we need to start somewhere.
So if I am fishing just a spinner or a spoon attached directly to my line... which I like to do how will that `fit`in such a restrictionÉ
Frankly leader restrictions are unworkable. If they were there would have been one by now.
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Seems to me the biggest problem is money for funding enforcement.I am going to go out on a limb and propose something.Many of us remember the upper river above the hatchery being open,selectively years gone by.There is also a cry for fly fishing only as well as catch and release water on the river.So that those who prefer a return to the more idyllic experience of angling can enjoy same.Here goes.Make the section of the river above the hatchery classified waters.With the funds raised going to increased patrols.Possibly fly fishing only up to the army muster area.All of this with extra fees.All catch and release.Solve some of the confrontations and put the spotlight on the rule breakers.My two cents.
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Seems to me the biggest problem is money for funding enforcement.I am going to go out on a limb and propose something.Many of us remember the upper river above the hatchery being open,selectively years gone by.There is also a cry for fly fishing only as well as catch and release water on the river.So that those who prefer a return to the more idyllic experience of angling can enjoy same.Here goes.Make the section of the river above the hatchery classified waters.With the funds raised going to increased patrols.Possibly fly fishing only up to the army muster area.All of this with extra fees.All catch and release.Solve some of the confrontations and put the spotlight on the rule breakers.My two cents.
Genius.
I can't see a flaw in this suggestion. It's a win-win situation. :)
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Could work but that also creates more water to patrol which kind of defeats the increase in enforcement.
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Sounds like a win-win Riverman. The area is closed anyway, may as well allow some people to savour its splendour. Good idea !!!
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A little history on the upper chilliwack
It was opened in about 1973. The idea was to reduce the number of so called resident rainbows that were competing with sthd. smolts. It turned into quite a poaching problem with people killing large numbers of smolts and using bait, which was banned.
Again in the early 1980's a proposal to open it up to fly fishing only catch and release was summitted by the regional biologist. At that time a sample of 40 trout were taken from the upper river, 39 were males and the one female was small enough to be a pre-smolt. It was at that time that the realization of how important those male hold backs were to the spawning success of the Sthd. population.
I believe the only reason we have a relatively healthy population of wild Sthd. is because of the upper river and its habitat although the more gravel we take from the bottom the more will wash down from the top. The upper river should be left alone. It's not a win win to open it, it's a win for some anglers and a lose for the river.
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A little history on the upper chilliwack
It was opened in about 1973. The idea was to reduce the number of so called resident rainbows that were competing with sthd. smolts. It turned into quite a poaching problem with people killing large numbers of smolts and using bait, which was banned.
Again in the early 1980's a proposal to open it up to fly fishing only catch and release was summitted by the regional biologist. At that time a sample of 40 trout were taken from the upper river, 39 were males and the one female was small enough to be a pre-smolt. It was at that time that the realization of how important those male hold backs were to the spawning success of the Sthd. population.
I believe the only reason we have a relatively healthy population of wild Sthd. is because of the upper river and its habitat although the more gravel we take from the bottom the more will wash down from the top. The upper river should be left alone. It's not a win win to open it, it's a win for some anglers and a lose for the river.
Totally agree with that Steve.
I and others on this forum have observed and documented, here on FWR, rainbow trout alongside spawning steelhead during our annual spring enumerations. The system is near pristine, has very limited access, and with the recent and more to come gravel additions by DFO and a planned long term nutrient enrichment program this upper river area will be the driver of wild steelhead and early run coho production for years to come. Pinks, chum, char and whitefish will also benefit. This upper river is far to valuable to play around with for some limited angling opportunities; think fish and let's not screw this up. - keep it closed.
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So if I am fishing just a spinner or a spoon attached directly to my line... which I like to do how will that `fit`in such a restrictionÉ
Frankly leader restrictions are unworkable. If they were there would have been one by now.
I would think you "leader length" would be considered 0" then. If you were to attach a spitshot or two above the spinner them the "leader length" would be the distance between the two, even though it is not a separate piece.
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I say jack the price of a license up to like 300.00 it would weed out a lot of the problem and put the extra money into enforcement. If you love to fish who cares if it costs you a couple bucks a day to fish no difference than if you buy a coffee everyday.
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I for one would not pay that kind of money, $300, to fish and I love to fish. Give me a break, we already pay enough in taxes etc. the money we already pay for our license is not being used properly by the government. How would it make a difference? As well, people would still cheat. Hunters take the CORE program, but we still have poaching and gun abuse issues.
Was on the river for several days during this last week. Saw far more people fishing ethically than on "the dark side." I myself was not a strong believer in the use of roe and am now a convert... Saw how well it worked, tried it for an extended period with success and boom, a new believer. I guess what I am saying is that we need to keep trying to get things across to people. Education... Not going to happen with everyone, never will, but there are far more people fishing properly than not. I also do not believe that it is our job to verbally or physically attack others on the river. Just doesn't seem right. Being ethically strong role models is the answer. Watching others has certainly changed my fishing techniques.
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I would think you "leader length" would be considered 0" then. If you were to attach a spitshot or two above the spinner them the "leader length" would be the distance between the two, even though it is not a separate piece.
then unless a weight or swivel is attached on fly leader the length on a fly rig would also be zero...as would the same case be for jigs. That's what I mean by unworkable as there are many ways to work around the restriction. I think the Oregon model where fish must be hooked inside the mouth to be retained is a better approach but alas virtually unenforceable.
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A little history on the upper chilliwack
It was opened in about 1973. The idea was to reduce the number of so called resident rainbows that were competing with sthd. smolts.
best 2 recall the opening was for about 2 weeks. With the requirement to release all wild trout that objective is moot. I don't see anything to be gained from an opening of the upper river.
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then unless a weight or swivel is attached on fly leader the length on a fly rig would also be zero...as would the same case be for jigs. ...
Not necessarily, but perhaps with a floating line, yes. On a sinking or sinking tip fly line, the line itself is the weight, so the leader length is just that...the length of the leader attached to the fly line (between the line and the fly). The purpose of such a regulation is to control intentional "flossing", and an unweighted spoon or spinner is not going to be very effective as a "flossing" rig as the line would not be parallel to the stream bed, but rather angled up to the rod. Of course you would be able to manipulate the line and rod tip in some cases to try to floss rather than trick the fish with your spoon or jig, but it just would not be as effective as a weighted line with a 12 foot leader. I am guessing the reason for such a regulation would be to discourage intentional flossing (by making it more difficult and therefore less effective) and to encourage more sporting methods of catching fish. The problem with any regulation is enforcement. If no one is out there patrolling and monitoring abuses, no regulation change is going to help.
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A bit off topic I guess But in addition to fish regulations Id like to also see an overnight camping ban on the river above the crossing except in designated camping areas to reduce the amount of garbage left behind by all users. There are campgrounds open and available to those that want to spend a night.
A leader restriction of whatever amount may not stop all the snagging but it would reduce the BB flosser's who transition over from the Fraser. Most of those guys imo are new fishers that are ignorant to fish biting and once they saw a leader length restriction would likely help educate them on flossing vs biting. It wouldn't end the snagging or flossing but i think it would reduce it from people who genuinely don't know the difference.
Id like to eventually see an annual fish/salmon tag system with an inflated price per tag in the form of a marked color coded zap strap type tag to be connected through the mouth/gill plate opening. Have tags available from the local fishing shops made of recyclable material and make the bag limits annual limits like chinook are. Limits of 10 for each species is more then enough fish for one angler each year imo.
Also make it illegal to Retain fish in spawning colors/condition and leave the discretion of silverish dark fish in the opinion of the officer at the time of inspection.
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Also make it illegal to Retain fish in spawning colors/condition and leave the discretion of silverish dark fish in the opinion of the officer at the time of inspection.
This is not very constructive as a regulation needs to be clear to the individual so they know what is legal or not. You cannot have just have it "at the discretion" of the officer if the fish is "too coloured" or how is the individual to know if those purple bars showing under the silver scales of the chum they just caught would be perceived by the officer as "in spawning colours". Regulations need to be quantitative (measurable) to be effective, qualitative regulations would leave too much to judgment and would not stand up in a court.
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This upper river is far to valuable to play around with for some limited angling opportunities; think fish and let's not screw this up. - keep it closed.
I have too much respect for you to even attempt to argue against your point of view.
We'll keep it closed. :)
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I agree with Dave. Keep the upper river CLOSED!
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This is not very constructive as a regulation needs to be clear to the individual so they know what is legal or not. You cannot have just have it "at the discretion" of the officer if the fish is "too coloured" or how is the individual to know if those purple bars showing under the silver scales of the chum they just caught would be perceived by the officer as "in spawning colours". Regulations need to be quantitative (measurable) to be effective, qualitative regulations would leave too much to judgment and would not stand up in a court.
True, But something should be done about people killing the spawning fish if they need to argue it in court so be it, better something then nothing.
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True, But something should be done about people killing the spawning fish if they need to argue it in court so be it, better something then nothing.
If you want spawning fish left alone by anglers, close the rivers and only target in the ocean. Problem solved.
They are all spawners, just in different stages of development.
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Not necessarily, but perhaps with a floating line, yes. On a sinking or sinking tip fly line, the line itself is the weight, so the leader length is just that...the length of the leader attached to the fly line (between the line and the fly). The purpose of such a regulation is to control intentional "flossing", and an unweighted spoon or spinner is not going to be very effective as a "flossing" rig as the line would not be parallel to the stream bed, but rather angled up to the rod.
first off fly line isn't and probably cannot be defined for regulation. One can use a length of mono and a fly and legally be fly fishing. So this suggestion is much the same, unworkable for regulation or we would have seen it by now.
Not everyone agrees with your analysis of what is effective or not effective for flossing. I will leave that comment at that.
Final observation; as many people have alluded if people can get away with killing a limit (or more) of fish that have been hooked in the but or the back or the belly and not suffer any consequences, how the heck does anyone expect a leader length restriction to fix anything?
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Lots of suggestions about limiting leader length. Did you notice the report on Oregon's regulations in another string:
Oregon was looking at this but this year changed the regs to require leaders be 18 inches long or longer (pg. 11) and to require any fish not hooked inside the mouth be released. The 1st reg is an ŕnti-snagging`rule and the 2nd is aimed more generally at snagging and flossing (or lining as they call it in some parts down south.
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first off fly line isn't and probably cannot be defined for regulation. One can use a length of mono and a fly and legally be fly fishing. So this suggestion is much the same, unworkable for regulation or we would have seen it by now.
Not everyone agrees with your analysis of what is effective or not effective for flossing. I will leave that comment at that.
Final observation; as many people have alluded if people can get away with killing a limit (or more) of fish that have been hooked in the but or the back or the belly and not suffer any consequences, how the heck does anyone expect a leader length restriction to fix anything?
Yes, I never suggested it would be a final solution, I just suggested how such a regulation could be used reduce the number of angler who intentionally fish to floss. While no new regulation would stop someone willing to break existing regulations, it could encourage those who do not want to break the law, but will do whatever they legally can to hook a fish, to try more sporting methods.
While I know that the fly, not the line, defines it as "fly fishing," we are not talking about a fly fishing only regulation, just a leader length regulation. I have no problem with someone using just fly on a mono line and considering that leader length 0". I challenge anyone to try effectively flossing fish with that rig.
While I am sure lots of people may disagree with me that a weight and long leader that presents the long leader parallel to the stream bed is more effective at flossing or "lining" fish than an unweighted line with a spoon or jig, I would love to hear those arguments. Again, I am not saying that one could not floss fish with a short leader or with a spoon attached directly to the mainline. I am saying it is just not very effective and you are more likely than not going to ellicit a true strike anyway.
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Hey nibbs. You trying to cut my heart out. Too many high seas sailors already think that way.
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While I know that the fly, not the line, defines it as "fly fishing," we are not talking about a fly fishing only regulation, just a leader length regulation. I have no problem with someone using just fly on a mono line and considering that leader length 0". I challenge anyone to try effectively flossing fish with that rig.
but the complication comes with sinking lines and as such a leader length restriction is in my view unworkable as the length remains 0" in your terms despite the use of a sinking line.
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If you want spawning fish left alone by anglers, close the rivers and only target in the ocean. Problem solved.
They are all spawners, just in different stages of development.
If you cant tell the diffrence between a spawning fish and one thats entered recently your half the problem. Clean vs coloured. It isnt hard.
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If you cant tell the diffrence between a spawning fish and one thats entered recently your half the problem. Clean vs coloured. It isnt hard.
KP, haha you know what I'm getting at here. No way a reg that only lets people keep clean fish would fly. Just trying to point out how goofy that would be.
Carich, excuse my ignorance. I haven't handled many salmon in my day, so am still learning. I forgot that fish colour up overnight, silver to fire chicken with a snap of the fingers.
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KP, haha you know what I'm getting at here.
I haven't handled many salmon in my day, so am still learning.
LOL!
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Carich, excuse my ignorance. I haven't handled many salmon in my day, so am still learning. I forgot that fish colour up overnight, silver to fire chicken with a snap of the fingers.
Anyone could make the same mistake, don't be too hard on yourself. Sorta explains some of the other stuff posted. ;D
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but the complication comes with sinking lines and as such a leader length restriction is in my view unworkable as the length remains 0" in your terms despite the use of a sinking line.
Still not sure why it is complicated or unworkable, since a sinking line (ie: actual coated fly line, not just a fly tied to mono) is serving the purpose of the weight on mono (provides the angler with the ability to cast the line and allow it to sink to the required depth). Therefore, any leader (mono, fluorocarbon, etc) tied to the sinking fly line could be measured as leader length, just as a length of leader tied to a swivel on your mono or braided mainline. I am sure the barbless hook regulation raise similar concerns of work ability when it was first introduced (all hooks sold at the time had barbs so how can you have a regulation requiring barbless hook? How can you determine if the barb is crushed adequately? etc.).
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Sinking and floating lines of the same AFTMA rating weigh more or less the same. Conceptionaly and practically there is no real difference between a fly on a fly line - floating or otherwise and a spinner or spoon or a jig on mono. As I said fly line isn't defined and probably will remain so I think until such time we see a regulation that limits leader length and not only defines fly line but in the regulations differentiates fly lines on a much finer basis - the view that such a regulation is unworkable is more probably correct.
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KP, haha you know what I'm getting at here. No way a reg that only lets people keep clean fish would fly. Just trying to point out how goofy that would be.
Carich, excuse my ignorance. I haven't handled many salmon in my day, so am still learning. I forgot that fish colour up overnight, silver to fire chicken with a snap of the fingers.
I dont get what your trying to defend here. why anyone would want to defend the killing of spawners is beyond me, maybe your one of those guys thats owns a smoker for the late season or just combines all Fish caught into fried fishcakes? To each their own. Why would you want to kill anything not silver? Its like that episode of the Simpsons where Homer chases the roast pig trying to convince himself its still good! If it aint Chrome go home.
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I dont get what your trying to defend here. why anyone would want to defend the killing of spawners is beyond me, maybe your one of those guys thats owns a smoker for the late season or just combines all Fish caught into fried fishcakes? To each their own. Why would you want to kill anything not silver? Its like that episode of the Simpsons where Homer chases the roast pig trying to convince himself its still good! If it aint Chrome go home.
It is not to defend those bonking spawners, but rather those bonking fish that are in various stage of colouring up. As he says, fish do not change from chrome to "spawning" colours in one momment, they change gradually. A Chum may be bright silver but show those bars underneath, is it legal? A coho may appear a little dark on the belly but still be bright silver on the sides, is it illegal? When exactly does a fish stop being "chrome" and become illegal to kill? It is one thing to say your fish is too coloured, you should release it, and it is quite another to say that fish is not chrome enough, you get a $200 fine.
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I dont get what your trying to defend here. why anyone would want to defend the killing of spawners is beyond me, maybe your one of those guys thats owns a smoker for the late season or just combines all Fish caught into fried fishcakes? To each their own. Why would you want to kill anything not silver? Its like that episode of the Simpsons where Homer chases the roast pig trying to convince himself its still good! If it aint Chrome go home.
Any fish you have the option to kill, within edible range of course, will be hatchery and and it is better to kill it in order to allow as much room as possible for the wild fish to reproduce. We want as many wild fish successfully spawning as possible for their superior genetics. If your not going to use it then leave it alone. Someone else will gladly take it.
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The lower river should be reserved for newbies and only people with more than 10 years experience should be allowed to fish the upper IMO. And you should have to pass an exam.
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The lower river should be reserved for newbies and only people with more than 10 years experience should be allowed to fish the upper IMO. And you should have to pass an exam.
I'd be all for that but only if we could change the lower boundary to be from the downstream side of the KWB to the upstream side of the Highway bridge. ;D,
And BTW, make that 10 years experience 20 or 30 instead, then you gotta deal. ;D ;D
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The lower river should be reserved for newbies and only people with more than 10 years experience should be allowed to fish the upper IMO. And you should have to pass an exam.
I go along with the exam part but how do you propose we screen and verify peoples experience level. Should we be stopped above the crossing and asked for id like at the US border. Too laughable. Perhaps like at bar's we could get govt. sponsored fishing stamps that glow flourescent under black lights to make it quicker, lol.
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I go along with the exam part but how do you propose we screen and verify peoples experience level. Should we be stopped above the crossing and asked for id like at the US border. Too laughable. Perhaps like at bar's we could get govt. sponsored fishing stamps that glow flourescent under black lights to make it quicker, lol.
Easy. They have a record of how many years you've been buying a license. You can only buy the A license when you've bought 10 years worth of B licenses.
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Easy. They have a record of how many years you've been buying a license. You can only buy the A license when you've bought 10 years worth of B licenses.
Yes I agree with that but how would they check you. This isn't Treo for Fishing you know. If we don't have the manpower to watch over the poachers and snaggers now how are we going to check everyone to verify what you are suggesting. Anyway I don't like the idea at all. We are all tax payers and we all deserve to fish and use the resources equally. Sorry, big NO.
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Yes I agree with that but how would they check you. This isn't Treo for Fishing you know. If we don't have the manpower to watch over the poachers and snaggers now how are we going to check everyone to verify what you are suggesting. Anyway I don't like the idea at all. We are all tax payers and we all deserve to fish and use the resources equally. Sorry, big NO.
Um we aren't all tax payers and even those who are don't all deserve to use the resources equally. How many Washington license plates have you seen at the vedder? And people who have no regard for the rules give up their right to fish. Your assertions just smack of ignorance and entitlement.
It wouldn't be hard to police. Last time I checked the licensing system has a "classified waters" tag to fish on certain lakes eg Shuswap. I'm sure the COs manage to police that fishery and it's about a million times bigger than the vedder.
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Um we aren't all tax payers and even those who are don't all deserve to use the resources equally. How many Washington license plates have you seen at the vedder? And people who have no regard for the rules give up their right to fish. Your assertions just smack of ignorance and entitlement.
Um we aren't all tax payers and even those who are don't all deserve to use the resources equally.
If you consume goods and services in Canada you ARE a taxpayer whether you work or not.
Please explain why I am not entitled to my share of tax money I work hard for that the gov. forcefully takes from me?
The river is a PUBLIC resource and not a private reserve for wealthy land owners. This is why Canada is considered one of the best places in the world to live. This is why Brits look on in envy at us here in BC as we have access to our collective public recreational resources unlike there where most lakes and rivers are owned privately and the peasants have no right to access and what little access they have costs dearly. I enjoy our access and would like to keep it that way.
How many Washington license plates have you seen at the vedder?
Foreigners pay a premium to fish in BC. They also bring $$$ to the local economy as well as paying taxes, gas tax, food taxes, etc. without the benefits of citizenship
And people who have no regard for the rules give up their right to fish.
Agreed and ought to be punished accordingly.
Your assertions just smack of ignorance and entitlement.
YOUR assertions just smack of ignorance and entitlement...
Um we aren't all tax payers and even those who are don't all deserve to use the resources equally
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If you consume goods and services in Canada you ARE a taxpayer whether you work or not.
Foreigners pay a premium to fish in BC. They also bring $$$ to the local economy as well as paying taxes, gas tax, food taxes, etc. without the benefits of citizenship
Almost all of the people from Washington I have met on the vedder have been day trippers. I would stick my neck out and say they didn't even buy a litre of gas on the trip over. Do they still count as taxpayers? Just because they spent a pitiful $100 on a years fishing license doesn't count for much IMO.
And my Scottish buddies laugh when I show them pictures of 5000 people standing shoulder to shoulder tangling each other's lines. I don't think they are laughing out of jealousy but you've got me curious now. I'll check that next time I see them.
And when did I say the river should be privatized? I just said some areas should be restricted to experienced fishermen. A recent survey on the vedder suggested 98% of fishermen would be in favour of excluding flossers, snaggers, bottom bouncers and people who can't ID a wild coho from 50 yards whilst it's still under water. You only have to spend 10 seconds looking at this site to know there is a strong feeling on the subject.
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Um we aren't all tax payers and even those who are don't all deserve to use the resources equally. How many Washington license plates have you seen at the vedder? And people who have no regard for the rules give up their right to fish. Your assertions just smack of ignorance and entitlement.
It wouldn't be hard to police. Last time I checked the licensing system has a "classified waters" tag to fish on certain lakes eg Shuswap. I'm sure the COs manage to police that fishery and it's about a million times bigger than the vedder.
Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm happy with your asessment if thats how you feel. I still don't see how following your game plan will weed out the snaggers and the poachers and help with the problems were discussing. Just because you're a ten year + man doesn't mean you'll be any less a snagger than one with less experience. That's just my opinion though and I welcome yours or anyone else's thoughts on this situation. Off to watch sum Football Go Bronco's !!!
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.... in favour of excluding flossers, snaggers, bottom bouncers and people who can't ID a wild coho from 50 yards whilst it's still under water. You only have to spend 10 seconds looking at this site to know there is a strong feeling on the subject.
You can identify a WILD coho 50 yards whilst it's still under water? ::) Sorry, but I'm gonna have to call BS on that. Besides, if that were the case then 99.98% of us would not be eligible to purchase a license...you and some psychic would be the only exception.
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You can identify a WILD coho 50 yards whilst it's still under water? ::) Sorry, but I'm gonna have to call BS on that. Besides, if that were the case then 99.98% of us would not be eligible to purchase a license...you and some psychic would be the only exception.
I never said I could make that call! But for what it's worth I have lost count of the number of know it alls I have met on the river that think they can tell a wild coho just by the way it bites / fights etc. Plenty of threads on this forum too suggesting wild fish bite harder, fight harder and many elaborate theories as to why that is the case. Far be it from me to question their extensive knowledge on the subject. I only hope one day that I may be as good at fishing as they are.