Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: alwaysfishn on July 01, 2013, 08:33:30 AM
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What you need to know about Infectious Salmon Anaemia:
Having the virus doesn’t necessarily mean you have the disease…yet. ISAv is the virus while ISA is the deadly disease caused by the virus, like HIV is the virus that may cause AIDS.
The virus can simmer for years before outbreaks begin, as it did when it was introduced to Chile. The virus was detected years before the massive epidemics began in 2007, which caused 2 billion dollars' worth of damage.
Just because there are not active outbreaks now doesn’t mean that ISAv is not here. When the virus becomes activated, the damage can very quickly become widespread.
The problem is with detecting ISAv is as soon as a fish dies, the virus begins to “shatter”, so often only segments of the viral sequence can be detected by the time a sample gets shipped to a lab. Probes used by CFIA labs will only detect exact matches for certain sequences.
http://www.vancouverobserver.com/opinion/shooting-messenger-lab-stripped-credentials-after-finding-infectious-virus-bc-salmon (http://www.vancouverobserver.com/opinion/shooting-messenger-lab-stripped-credentials-after-finding-infectious-virus-bc-salmon)
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On June 11, 2013 the CFIA announced they did not find ISA in their sampling of 4,175 wild salmon. It is perplexing as to why they would not sample sick, farmed Atlantic (European) salmon, the likely source of the European virus in question. If you were really looking for the virus, it would be the obvious place to start. Instead, they tested 4,175 wild salmon using a method that has never worked for wild salmon.
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It is perplexing as to why they would not sample sick, farmed Atlantic (European) salmon, the likely source of the European virus in question.
LOL.
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Self-induced ignorance or willful deceit? You decide.
Since 2003, 4700 farm fish (http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/statement-declarations/2011/20111024-eng.htm) have been tested by PCR for ISA as part of the ongoing and mandatory farm health monitoring program; all tested negative.
A further 500 farm and wild fish were tested in 2010 and 2011; again all tested negative.
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ah, but absolon, the CFIA and the DFO can't be trusted and that's why the work of Morton is so important, according to her supporters.
Right.
I'm looking forward to seeing her latest court case being thrown out and she declared liable for costs. Somehow I think another call for financial assistance would not be well received, even by her staunchest followers like af. Old mother Hubbard might have to help on this one ;D
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ah, but absolon, the CFIA and the DFO can't be trusted and that's why the work of Morton is so important, according to her supporters.
Good to see you're finally starting to realize the obvious....
Other labs have found ISA in BC salmon
Kibenge is not alone in finding positive test results for ISAv in BC salmon. Several other labs have reported the virus.
Dr. Kristi Miller reports finding ISAv in farmed salmon on the west coast of Vancouver Island, Cohen exhibit 2053, and sockeye, Cohen Exhibit 2060
Dr. Are Nylund reports positive ISAv test results
Dr. Kyle Garver, Cohen Exhibit 2043, 2056
Dr. Sonja Saksida -, BC Centre for Aquatic Health Services, reported ISA PCR positives to the CFIA in the farm Chinook salmon from Creative Salmon, Cohen Exhibit 2055.
A 2004 draft paper coauthored by Drs. Molly and Fred Kibenge and Drs. Simon Jones and Garth Traxler (DFO) reporting 115 ISA virus positive results. These results demonstrate up to 99.7 per cent identity to an ISAv isolate from Norway. Sequence was produced. Positive samples included farmed Atlantic, wild salmon from Alaskan waters, throughout BC and Cultus Lake sockeye, Cohen Exhibit 2045, (See video – “http://salmonconfidential.ca/more-great-videos-educate-youself/dfo-knew-about-isa-virus/ (http://salmonconfidential.ca/more-great-videos-educate-youself/dfo-knew-about-isa-virus/)”)
During the Cohen Commission, an internal CFIA email was revealed which provided a glimpse into their intended handling of the BC ISAv situation.
“It is clear we are turning the PR tide to our favor and this is because of the very successful performance of our spokes…One battle is won, now we have to nail the surveillance piece, and we will win the war also" - internal CFIA memo (Cohen Exhibit 2110)
Does this sound like an agency trying to get to the truth of a reportable virus? The CFIA’s 4,175 negative test results in wild fish and not testing farmed salmon is the CFIA “nailing the surveillance piece”.
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Good to see you're finally starting to realize the obvious....
Not so af. No lab has found ISA, the disease, in BC salmon, farmed or wild.. Almost certainly though a strain or strains of ISAv endemic to this coast are slowly being identified. Huge difference there af as these strains seem not to harm either Atlantic's or Pacific's.
Wait for Riddell and Miller's work, in the meantime go fishing ... I am; back in 2 weeks or so.
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Semantics Dave......
Do not seek and you shall not find
Nearly every lab that doesn’t have direct ties with either the government or salmon industry seems to be able to find at least segments of the virus. Meanwhile, every lab that has a vested interest in not finding the virus can’t seem to detect it.
It’s easy to not find this virus if you don’t want to. Here is why: If a virus is imported to a new country, it doesn’t stay the same for long. Influenza viruses like ISAv are known for their rapid mutations, which is precisely what makes them so dangerous.
If you use a PCR test that only reports an exact match as a “positive” you could easily miss the virus, since even a slight change will make it “invisible” to a probe that is looking for an exact sequence. Kibenge's lab was using a technique that was reading the sequences of the virus, rather than just using a probe that only reports an exact match of a very specific sequence. This is how Kibenge was able to pick up on viral sequences that contained slight variations of the virus, as well as fragments.
"So I believe that what we have in B.C. is a somewhat divergent strain of ISA that is not universally picked up with the assays that are presently in use... there is always the possibility that you will develop an assay that doesn't pick other variants that you didn't know about. And I believe that that's what's happening here.”
-Dr. Kristi Miller (Cohen Commission Testimony)
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Why the CFIA won’t find ISAv until an outbreak is underway
In order for the CFIA to officially “confirm” ISA in BC, they require a high standard of proof called “virus isolation” which mean catching the virus alive and culturing it in a petri dish. The only way this requirement of proof has ever been fulfilled is during an active disease outbreak on a farm where the fresh sample of a dying Atlantic salmon could be rushed to a lab very quickly. It has never been successful with wild fish anywhere in the world.
As soon as a wild fish builds up enough viral loads to begin slowing down, it usually disappears into the mouth of a hungry predator. Of course, no one other than those embedded with the industry are allowed access to farmed salmon for disease testing, which makes fulfilling this requirement close to impossible.
Makes the CFIA exercise of "testing wild fish" rather pointless doesn't it. But hey as far as they are concerned as long as they can "turn the PR tide" they will continue to spin the roulette wheel, keeping their fingers crossed that an outbreak of ISA does not occur. Meantime wild salmon are dying.
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Interesting that Dr. Miller's name comes up in Twyla's latest propaganda. Does she know that the Pacific Biological Station was one of the labs used by the CFIA in their latest virus update? Yeah, that's right....This is one of Ms Morton's superlabs:
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/wild-anadromous-salmonids/eng/1370960326837/1370960742286
Twyla also fails to mention every thing Dr. Miller said about her retroactive testing for ISAv in her preserved samples. For more accurate information go here:
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/FinalReport/CohenCommissionFinalReport_Vol01_09.pdf#zoom=100
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/FinalReport/CohenCommissionFinalReport_Vol02_04.pdf#zoom=100
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/FinalReport/CohenCommissionFinalReport_Vol02_05.pdf#zoom=100
She also leaves out most of what Dr. Nylund said and even Dr. Kibenge. What Dr. Miller believes is that the sequences she found could have been here for a long time - even before salmon farming. I guess it was that professional editing that left that bit out. You know - the editing that preserves the integrity of the testimony...lol.
Oh those Chinook from Creative Salmon. Funny how Twyla leaves out the part that the prevalence of the ISAv-like sequences found were the same in healthy and unhealthy Chinook Salmon. Dr. Miller's ISAV results from those Chinook salmon were linked to data from a licenced veterinarian that sampled the fish and a board-certified veterinary pathologist that examined sections of the organs under the microscope. In this way, it was obvious that the sick fish were very sick and the healthy fish were very healthy, but the prevalence of ISAV was the same in both groups. This means that whatever Dr. Miller was finding, it was not the cause of the disease in the farmed Chinook salmon.
Funny how Twyla fails to say everything about 2004 draft paper by Dr. Molly Kibenge. To read more about it go here:
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/FinalReport/CohenCommissionFinalReport_Vol01_09.pdf#zoom=100
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/FinalReport/CohenCommissionFinalReport_Vol01_11.pdf#zoom=100
http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/04/17/the-character-assassination-of-simon-jones/
To further investigate what was going on with Molly’s results, 20 blind samples (10 negative and 10 positive) were sent to Dr. Fred Kibenge at the AVC for retesting. Six of those samples came up positive, but 3 of these samples originally tested negative. Funny how Twyla failed to mention that tid-bit. Isn't movie making fun, eh?
If you use a PCR test that only reports an exact match as a “positive” you could easily miss the virus, since even a slight change will make it “invisible” to a probe that is looking for an exact sequence. Kibenge's lab was using a technique that was reading the sequences of the virus, rather than just using a probe that only reports an exact match of a very specific sequence. This is how Kibenge was able to pick up on viral sequences that contained slight variations of the virus, as well as fragments.
Apparently, Ms Morton is finding positive ISAv results that no one else in Canada and the US are finding. According to Morton, the tests that the CFIA and the WDFW used have never worked on wild salmon, but is she inferring that the testing she has access to does work on wild salmon? From the Cohen Commission, we heard testimony from Dr. Kilbenge that the current tests for ISAv have been developed for Atlantic Salmon (Volume 1; Chapter 9, page 455). According to Kibenge, we don’t know the best tissue to take from Pacific Salmon to find most of the virus – unlike with Atlantic Salmon where scientists have a very good idea which tissues to sample. So if Morton’s “go-to-lab” is saying this then what unique test has she found that is finding all these positive samples? Interestingly enough, one of the labs used by the CFIA in their latest virus surveillance report was one of Morton’s “super labs” – the Pacific Biological Station which is the workplace of Dr. Kristi Miller.
As for ISA 101, it is best to get the information from a more trusted source. Try here: http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/FinalReport/CohenCommissionFinalReport_Vol01_09.pdf#zoom=100
When Morton inquired to the CFIA about the status of those samples, she received a series of varying replies ranging from they were going to use up the whole sample in testing, so they would never be returned; to they weren’t going to test any of her samples because she didn’t have chain of custody.
Yeah, that's what happens when you don't know what you are doing. Couldn't see that coming...lol.
The CFIA claims they won’t test Morton positive samples because they say they don’t know where they came from. However, using DNA testing they could in fact confirm where the salmon originated.
Successful DNA testing depends on the quality of the sample taken. Microbiology sampling can be easily contaminated - even by the pros (who told me). Even then it is not a perfect science with fish when you see issues with stock identification. Oh that's right...your a film producer, Twyla.....not a biologist. Perhaps, in the sequel to Salmonconfidential, Twyla (or Jean from Shaw TV) can play a film producer that is actually dedicated to the integrity of the subject she is portraying.
It is perplexing as to why they would not sample sick, farmed Atlantic (European) salmon, the likely source of the European virus in question. If you were really looking for the virus, it would be the obvious place to start.
Farmed fish (recently dead) have been routinely sampled by the province. One of the tests is for ISAv. For more on this read Dr. Gary Marty's rebuttal to Ms Morton's misinterpretations on ISAv: https://www.professionalbiology.com/sites/default/files/bionews/BioNews22-1-electronic.pdf
Most research on fish diseases have been directed towards farmed and hatchery fish - not wild fish. http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/TR/Project1-Report.pdf#zoom=100
The CFIA is the agency responsible for stripping Kibenge’s lab.
False.
http://www.seafoodintelligence.com/EditModule.aspx?tabid=286&mid=767&def=News%20Article%20View&ItemId=34071
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/aquatic-animals/diseases/reportable/isa/statement-2013-07-05/eng/1373038790217/1373041710849
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Seems that would make it willful deceit on Twyla's part and self-induced ignorance on AF's part, though given the number of times this has been gone over here, that is a very charitable assumption.
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Many of us recognize that it's difficult going up against the money that the Canadian government and the feedlot industry puts into their PR campaign to convince the world that they aren't killing our wild salmon. Their campaign includes the many blogs and websites they operate, and the people that come on forums like this for the sole purpose of posting their feedlot propaganda. Apparently reporting facts that illustrate the cover-ups, manipulation of the facts and outright lies by the feedlot forces, is "deceit" and "ignorance" in their eyes.
That's why I so admire folks like Alexandra, Twyla and others who realize that enduring the ridicule from the pro-feedlot forces is part of the sacrifice they endure to make the public aware of the damage caused by the feedlots. It's good to know that at least a few people are looking out for the phenomenal resource we have in our wild salmon.
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A more honest description is that those activists use deception and misrepresentation to "substantiate" their claims along with the more than $100 million that has been funneled into the campaign to sway opinion by US foundations and other true believers. They also rely on the ignorance and gullibility of those believers to further their claims of damage and promote the conspiracy theories that purportedly explain the lack of evidence to support those claims.
What they don't address are the main sources of threat to the stocks: habitat destruction, changing environmental conditions, hatchery supplementation and excessive harvests of the stocks. There are indeed a few people who really are really trying to mitigate the threats but they aren't the well financed activists nor are they the people who operate the websites and blogs attacking the industry nor are they those who spend so much time on forums trying to convince people that the evidence contradicting the claims against farms is a grand conspiracy to kill off salmon.
For rational thinkers, the answers are to be found in facts and evidence, not in rhetoric. Indeed, the reliance by the activists on rhetoric about conspiracies, manipulation of facts and outright lies such as Twyla's easily disproved claim that farmed salmon haven't been tested for ISA as well as the personal attacks on anyone who would disagree with what they present as the truth instead of actually producing real facts and tangible evidence is a clear indication of the weakness of their case and isn't what I would call admirable.
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:o
....... the more than $100 million that has been funneled into the campaign .......
I didn't realize you had donated that much money to Morton.. :o
Edit: My mistake... I thought you were posting under your Fisherbob handle...
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Your talents for diverting and dissembling are truly impressive; everybody is good at something.
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Feel free to go over the references I posted to find how I manipulated Twyla's theories, AF. Most of the information is contained in the Cohen Final Report - a report based on the findings from an independent party (Justice Cohen). Funny how farm critics pushed so hard for a judicial inquiry, but cannot accept the findings or recommendations from an independent party.
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http://www.huffstrategy.com/MediaManager/release/Salmon-Confidential/3-7-13/One-of-Eastern-Canadas-leading-scientists-and-his-lab-stripped-of/2825.html (http://www.huffstrategy.com/MediaManager/release/Salmon-Confidential/3-7-13/One-of-Eastern-Canadas-leading-scientists-and-his-lab-stripped-of/2825.html)
In an interview published November 23, 2012 in the Globe and Mail, Dr. Kibenge commented, “What they are doing here is essentially punishing me for having testified at the Cohen Commission and trying to suppress the findings. It’s an attack on my credibility.........”
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http://www.cheknews.ca/?bckey=AQ~~%2CAAAA4mHNTzE~%2CejlzBnGUUKY1gXVPwEwEepl35Y795rND&bclid=975107450001&bctid=2488225363001 (http://www.cheknews.ca/?bckey=AQ~~%2CAAAA4mHNTzE~%2CejlzBnGUUKY1gXVPwEwEepl35Y795rND&bclid=975107450001&bctid=2488225363001)
This was the same lab that was the first to discover ISAv in Chile, before the experts and feedlots realized they had it. When ISA broke out it cost the industry well over $2 billion dollars. Fortunately they do not have wild salmon....
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The difference between the Chile situation and here is that in 2007, when Chile had a rapidly progressing disease outbreak that was killing many farmed fish in the pens, Kibenge was able to identify it and the identification was confirmed by both multiple tests and deteriorating conditions on the farms.
Here, prior to 2011 and Kibenge's testing, there was no disease outbreak. In 2011, subsequent to Kibenge claiming positive results, there was no disease outbreak and in 2013, there still is no disease outbreak. The fish health monitoring program has tested for ISA for many years and has found no sign of it. Subsequent testing of farmed and wild stocks for signs of the virus has turned up no sign of it and testing for it in Washington has turned up no sign of it.
When Kibenge identified it here even though no-one else was or has been able to confirm it, his lab protocols were audited not once, but twice to confirm the accuracy of his implementation of the required testing protocols, an obvious response given the situation. In both audits, his implementations of the required protocols were found to be inadequate with the potential to lead to false results.
After the first audit, rather than tighten up on his compliance with the required protocols in order to meet the specified standards required of an OIE certified lab, Kibenge claimed harassment and didn't improve his compliance with the requirements. As a consequence, after failing the second audit to measure his improvement in compliance with the required OIE protocols his certification was stripped, once again, an obvious response due to the critical and in Kibenge's case, unfulfilled, need for accuracy and reliability in testing.
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Surely you're not suggesting Kibenge has no idea what he is doing and the Chile discovery was pure dumb luck. That must mean that his OIE certification was also made in error..... :o
Interesting that it took more than 5 years and his testimony at the Cohen commission to get the CFIA to do an "independent" analysis of his lab. CFIA backlog?? or perhaps just orders from on high, telling CFIA to shut him up when he had test results that the feedlot industry didn't want to hear...
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I'm not making suggestions. I made a very specific statement. You can read it in the post directly above your's.
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http://www.alive.com/articles/view/17618/canadian_fish_farming
"Last February we received news of a major epidemic of sockeye flu. As a result, millions of fish were culled," she remembers. "Were it not for a court injunction, those fish would have been dumped into the ocean." As it was, they went to a landfill.
So there you go it was some bug that made them do humpty dumpty.
http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/vancouver-island-salmon-farm-accused-of-putting-diseased-fish-in-ocean-pens-1.174114
Margot Venton, Ecojustice staff lawyer, said the transfer of Atlantic salmon with piscine reovirus (PRV) from the hatchery to a Marine Harvest Canada ocean net pen appears to have violated federal law.
Once again just some other bug. Read my lips "NOT ISA". Nothing to worry about
Pretty sure those dirty fish have bugs we don't even have tests for yet.
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Sockeye flu? Yeah, "some bug" with not many specifics from the Ms Hunter. What fish were culled - Atlantic Salmon? Is she referring to IHN? Too late this evening to go over IHN all over again. PRV has been beaten to death. Morton is making the assumption the fish are diseased if they have PRV. On one hand she says PRV is believed to cause HSMI and on the other she basically implies that the farmed fish with PRV are diseased. What we know about PRV is that it is found in healthy and unhealthy fish, wild and farmed; and fish with lesions and fish without lesions. All that literature has already been posted in another thread which included literature used in Ms Morton's own blog.
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Hey all I'm saying is that if they were raising those dirty fish in a water reservoir that you drank from, you would be chugging beer instead. ;D
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Surely you're not suggesting Kibenge has no idea what he is doing and the Chile discovery was pure dumb luck. That must mean that his OIE certification was also made in error..... :o
Interesting that it took more than 5 years and his testimony at the Cohen commission to get the CFIA to do an "independent" analysis of his lab. CFIA backlog?? or perhaps just orders from on high, telling CFIA to shut him up when he had test results that the feedlot industry didn't want to hear...
Actually, having thought about it a bit, I will make one suggestion about Kibenge.
Now that he has become just more collateral damage in her path, I'll bet he is seriously regretting the day he ever agreed to do any work for Morton.
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Actually, having thought about it a bit, I will make one suggestion about Kibenge.
Now that he has become just more collateral damage in her path, I'll bet he is seriously regretting the day he ever agreed to do any work for Morton.
I'm sure that someone with Dr Kibenge's qualifications and principals would have reported the results he found regardless of where the samples came from. I admire him for reporting what he found in spite of likely knowing he would be black listed by the CFIA.
I believe you have hit the nail on the head as to why few others in the industry are willing to put the truth above their livelihood. With this type of gestapo action they have muzzled anyone in the industry from speaking the truth.
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Kibenge got caught doing substandard work that was widely misrepresented by Morton and then got dragged by her into the controversy about the misrepresentation that resulted from her announcement in the US that ISA was found in BC salmon.
The damage to his reputation isn't inconsequential.
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Hey all I'm saying is that if they were raising those dirty fish in a water reservoir that you drank from, you would be chugging beer instead. ;D
I would still opt for pork.
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With this type of gestapo action they have muzzled anyone in the industry from speaking the truth.
And there it is!!!!!!
#GodwinsLaw