Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: silver ghost on March 05, 2013, 11:35:43 PM
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A must watch...
http://salmonconfidential.ca
Spread the word, get it out there!
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Great film..... worthwhile taking the time to see it!
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A very slick and beautifully filmed documentary that I'm sure will do well (meaning make some money) with the conspiracy theorists and members of the flat earth society ;D It was convenient for Morton that filmmaker Twyla Roscovich neglected to mention a few things, however ... that Morton and her collaborators predicted the extinction of Broughton pink salmon due to sea lice; the fact that a record 26 million sockeye returned to the Fraser in 2010; that despite migrating far away from salmon farms, Harrison sockeye do indeed experience high rates of pre spawning mortality's (PSM) and finally, that Fraser sockeye have been experiencing PSM long before salmon farms started up.
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A very slick and beautifully filmed documentary that I'm sure will do well (meaning make some money) with the conspiracy theorists and members of the flat earth society ;D It was convenient for Morton that filmmaker Twyla Roscovich neglected to mention a few things, however ... that Morton and her collaborators predicted the extinction of Broughton pink salmon due to sea lice; the fact that a record 26 million sockeye returned to the Fraser in 2010; that despite migrating far away from salmon farms, Harrison sockeye do indeed experience high rates of pre spawning mortality's (PSM) and finally, that Fraser sockeye have been experiencing PSM long before salmon farms started up.
I wonder if Aquapaloosa, Abby, Bass and the others will put together their film to show their side of things. Looking forward to it as I am sure will others. ;D ;D
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I wonder if Aquapaloosa, Abby, Bass and the others will put together their film to show their side of things. Looking forward to it as I am sure will others. ;D ;D
I trust they won't leave out the dying ISA infected salmon being processed and put on the grocery shelves and some footage of the unsuspecting consumer buying them......
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I doubt we could top that video. That was a masterpiece of misrepresentations. I was thoroughly entertained throughout the whole thing.
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I doubt we could top that video. That was a masterpiece of misrepresentations. I was thoroughly entertained throughout the whole thing.
The feedlot boys are all singing from the same songbook..... seems to be the only song they know. ;D
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Hello pot, meet kettle.
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I admit the following is not like a carefully edited video which portrays Ms Morton’s version of events and outcomes of the Cohen Commission, but I think it's pretty good. Too bad Ms Morton (and apparently our politicians now) does not seem to like it very much.
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/FinalReport/
Jody Eriksson (“field researcher”) was a pretty interesting fellow. I love this quote from him:
“I am not a vet, but I can tell something is wrong with that fish”
Apparently, when Jody sees white-looking gills in a salmon carcass he is instantly suspicious of diseases (must be European viruses). I had no idea that a salmon carcass which could have been dead for more than than a few days usually retains red and pink coloured gills right up to decomposition. In fact, any spot, blemish, wound, parasite or soft area on a salmon carcass according to Jody is immediately suspicious. Do you think he is implying that the fish must have some European virus like ISA? Somehow he does not know what he is doing or what he is looking for, but that does not prevent Jody from coming to some instant conclusions. I will be interested in the results and conclusions from Jody’s field research.
Jody is not finished yet. Apparently, the small white cysts in the flesh of another salmon carcass are also highly suspicious. Now, Jody could do the boring task of taking some samples of these cysts as well as take some pictures and then take them to an actual fish pathologist in order to see if his suspicions have some scientific merit, but that is not great for a movie like this. After all, Jody is a “Field Researcher” and his expert opinion is being relied upon.
For further resources, Jody could have checked out Technical Report #1 from the Cohen Commission website: http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/TR/Project1-Report.pdf#zoom=100
He might even try checking out photos like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Henneguya_zschokkei.jpg
I would not automatically assume that it was suspicious and must be related to some disease before I did a little investigating. I could be wrong, but it may be Henneguya salminicola. If I was in doubt and did not have experience with fish pathogens I would take a sample, photos and take them to a recognized professional who deals with fish pathology. When I think about it now, I actually did do just that. I was even provided a brief explanation on the pathogen and how common it was.
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I admit the following is not like a carefully edited video which portrays Ms Morton’s version of events and outcomes of the Cohen Commission, but I think it's pretty good. Too bad Ms Morton (and apparently our politicians now) does not seem to like it very much.
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/FinalReport/
Jody Eriksson (“field researcher”) was a pretty interesting fellow. I love this quote from him:
“I am not a vet, but I can tell something is wrong with that fish”
Apparently, when Jody sees white-looking gills in a salmon carcass he is instantly suspicious of diseases (must be European viruses). I had no idea that a salmon carcass which could have been dead for more than than a few days usually retains red and pink coloured gills right up to decomposition. In fact, any spot, blemish, wound, parasite or soft area on a salmon carcass according to Jody is immediately suspicious. Do you think he is implying that the fish must have some European virus like ISA? Somehow he does not know what he is doing or what he is looking for, but that does not prevent Jody from coming to some instant conclusions. I will be interested in the results and conclusions from Jody’s field research.
Jody is not finished yet. Apparently, the small white cysts in the flesh of another salmon carcass are also highly suspicious. Now, Jody could do the boring task of taking some samples of these cysts as well as take some pictures and then take them to an actual fish pathologist in order to see if his suspicions have some scientific merit, but that is not great for a movie like this. After all, Jody is a “Field Researcher” and his expert opinion is being relied upon.
For further resources, Jody could have checked out Technical Report #1 from the Cohen Commission website: http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/TR/Project1-Report.pdf#zoom=100
He might even try checking out photos like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Henneguya_zschokkei.jpg
I would not automatically assume that it was suspicious and must be related to some disease before I did a little investigating. I could be wrong, but it may be Henneguya salminicola. If I was in doubt and did not have experience with fish pathogens I would take a sample, photos and take them to a recognized professional who deals with fish pathology. When I think about it now, I actually did do just that. I was even provided a brief explanation on the pathogen and how common it was.
All fine and good but you must admit with all the FOC cut backs and muzzling now in affect of government scientists and officials how will we every get the truth from your side of things? Not going to happen I hate to have to say,very sad situation. If they now find problems they are not allowed to say any thing and if they dared to do so they would lose their job. I know that has happened over the gravel issue on the Fraser River be it provincial.
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We need to make a lot more noise, I had no idea it was this bad.
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We need to make a lot more noise, I had no idea it was this bad.
This is why the film was made to make more people aware of what is actually going on as so much is being muzzled this days by government.
This is a bit old but something we need to be more aware of these days.
http://niagaraatlarge.com/2012/07/06/harpers-war-on-environment-takes-aim-on-research/
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All fine and good but you must admit with all the FOC cut backs and muzzling now in affect of government scientists and officials how will we every get the truth from your side of things? Not going to happen I hate to have to say,very sad situation. If they now find problems they are not allowed to say any thing and if they dared to do so they would lose their job. I know that has happened over the gravel issue on the Fraser River be it provincial.
I can agree with you to a point, but I do not believe we get closer to any truth when some folks speculate purely by visual observations and automatically imply that something is suspicious. The video basically leads the public to believe that if they see the things Mr. Eriksson is observing then they should assume some foreign disease or virus (i.e. ISAV or PRV) is the cause of death. I also did not see much about the other factors discussed in the Cohen Final Report. The video just glazed over everything else and was all about aquaculture. Why didn't the film talk about other aspects of Dr. Miller's testimony? It basically concentrated on a few things she said and deleted the rest. The film did its own bit of muzzling by editing peoples' testimony to make their case. That is a sad situation also.
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I am starting to wonder about Dr. Morton.
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/salmon-confidential-exposed-%E2%80%93-comment-interest
Some very good arguments.
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Now its time to start banging the table harder and louder.
http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/03/11/harrison-sockeye-salmon-aids-and-other-fibs/
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Welcome aboard Fisherbob ;D
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I am starting to wonder about Dr. Morton.
http://www.farmfreshsalmon.org/salmon-confidential-exposed-%E2%80%93-comment-interest
Some very good arguments.
If I read only the fish feedlot blogs and accepted them as being the truth...... I'd probably have the same thoughts you are having.
You need to look at what motivates people to write what they do. Feedlots will say and do whatever is necessary to continue generating profits by placing their cesspools in our ocean. Morton's sole motivation is to protect the wild salmon. The income she earns as a result could be labeled as poverty level.
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. Morton's sole motivation is to protect the wild salmon. The income she earns as a result could be labeled as poverty level.
I agree with your first sentence above but wonder, are you doing her accounting? How do we know where the thousands of $ collected are directed? Just asking.
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I agree with your first sentence above but wonder, are you doing her accounting? How do we know where the thousands of $ collected are directed? Just asking.
Good question.... She operates a charitable foundation. In order to retain charitable status(which gives the donors a tax deduction) every charity (in the US and Canada) must report their income and expenses and the records are public domain. Google is your friend.
Do a search in this forum as this has been reviewed in detail when another feedlot boy posed the same question.
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I agree with your first sentence above but wonder, are you doing her accounting? How do we know where the thousands of $ collected are directed? Just asking.
If Morton's sole motivation is to protect the wild salmon, one has to wonder where her voice is on all those other issues that are proven to affect wild salmon survival.
If one were to look at the actual reality and make a judgement solely based on that rather than on claims made by both Morton and the girls that support her, one would have to say that her single target is the salmon farms and consequently one would be forced to conclude that her sole motivation is to eliminate salmon farms.
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Maybe she was jilted by a salmon farming type guy? I think your trying to speak for her about motives. That can be called assuming. :-\
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Would that be the same kind of assuming as those who claim to know her only motivation is to save the wild salmon?
What I'm applying isn't called assuming. It's called inductive reasoning and as I mentioned, is an attempt to infer a conclusion based on a study of the actual facts.
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If Morton's sole motivation is to protect the wild salmon, one has to wonder where her voice is on all those other issues that are proven to affect wild salmon survival.
If one were to look at the actual reality and make a judgement solely based on that rather than on claims made by both Morton and the girls that support her, one would have to say that her single target is the salmon farms and consequently one would be forced to conclude that her sole motivation is to eliminate salmon farms.
The issue she is dealing with is enough for her to tackle. Of course there is an opportunity for you and others to take on the other concerns you mention, maybe you are already and of course we would not know that.
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Point is Chris that if she isn't dealing with those other issues it's incorrect to say that her motivation is saving the wild salmon. If that were her motivation, one would expect she would address the broader issues.
Instead, she is motivated on a single issue and that is the elimination of the farms and indeed draws upon support on that issue from major contributors to the problem of declining wild stocks, those being the commercial fishery, native bands and their harvests and the sports fishery.
That clearly indicates that her overall goal is not saving the stocks but rather satisfying a personal agenda. I don't have any issue with her choosing to do that, but I do have an issue with the dishonesty that attempts to cloak those actions as something other than what they are just as I have an issue with all those who use dishonest representations in service of personal ends.
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Point is Chris that if she isn't dealing with those other issues it's incorrect to say that her motivation is saving the wild salmon. If that were her motivation, one would expect she would address the broader issues.
Instead, she is motivated on a single issue and that is the elimination of the farms and indeed draws upon support on that issue from major contributors to the problem of declining wild stocks, those being the commercial fishery, native bands and their harvests and the sports fishery.
That clearly indicates that her overall goal is not saving the stocks but rather satisfying a personal agenda. I don't have any issue with her choosing to do that, but I do have an issue with the dishonesty that attempts to cloak those actions as something other than what they are just as I have an issue with all those who use dishonest representations in service of personal ends.
If nothing else it has helped triggered the newly announces study and maybe we all will finally get the answers to the question Alex and many other are asking and have brought to the fore front. I think all this controversy in the media including Cohen has the present government feeling the public pressure to do something. They know an election is not all that far away. I know we all hope the study does not take too long and is done with no hidden agenda.
Here is more on the subject from Damien. http://thecanadian.org/item/1975-new-film-cutting-edge-research-probe-salmon-virus-mystery-confidential-morton-miller-gillis
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Point is Chris that if she isn't dealing with those other issues it's incorrect to say that her motivation is saving the wild salmon. If that were her motivation, one would expect she would address the broader issues.
Instead, she is motivated on a single issue and that is the elimination of the farms and indeed draws upon support on that issue from major contributors to the problem of declining wild stocks, those being the commercial fishery, native bands and their harvests and the sports fishery.
Let's be honest, you would prefer that she disappear off the face of the planet as opposed to addressing the "broader issues". Speak to anyone that has achieved success in an endevour, and they will tell you that the key to success is to remain focused. Perhaps you would like her to "address the broader issues" so as to take a little heat of the feedlots?
That clearly indicates that her overall goal is not saving the stocks but rather satisfying a personal agenda. I don't have any issue with her choosing to do that, but I do have an issue with the dishonesty that attempts to cloak those actions as something other than what they are just as I have an issue with all those who use dishonest representations in service of personal ends.
Why don't you first prove that she is doing this for personal benefit. From what you've posted to date on this issue, all I read is a lot of assumptions and slander. Previously I've given you credit for being more professional than that.
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If nothing else it has helped triggered the newly announces study and maybe we all will finally get the answers to the question Alex and many other are asking and have brought to the fore front. I think all this controversy in the media including Cohen has the present government feeling the public pressure to do something. They know an election is not all that far away. I know we all hope the study does not take too long and is done with no hidden agenda.
Here is more on the subject from Damien. http://thecanadian.org/item/1975-new-film-cutting-edge-research-probe-salmon-virus-mystery-confidential-morton-miller-gillis
Chris, the study being proposed is a result of the Cohen Inquiry, plain and simple. Just as Morton tried to turn the Inquiry into the status of the sockeye to an inquiry into fishfarms, she is now trying to take credit for it's results in spite of being censured by Cohen several times for her behavior.
It all comes back to what I said earlier about dishonest representations in service of her own agenda.
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Let's be honest, you would prefer that she disappear off the face of the planet as opposed to addressing the "broader issues". Speak to anyone that has achieved success in an endevour, and they will tell you that the key to success is to remain focused. Perhaps you would like her to "address the broader issues" so as to take a little heat of the feedlots?
Why don't you first prove that she is doing this for personal benefit. From what you've posted to date on this issue, all I read is a lot of assumptions and slander. Previously I've given you credit for being more professional than that.
Blah blah blah blah blah..........
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Good question.... She operates a charitable foundation. In order to retain charitable status(which gives the donors a tax deduction) every charity (in the US and Canada) must report their income and expenses and the records are public domain. Google is your friend.
Do a search in this forum as this has been reviewed in detail when another feedlot boy posed the same question.
Yeah, I remember that post. I was meaning the cash and personal cheque donations of all the well meaning grey haired ladies from naturalist clubs, granola eaters and weekend hikers from the British Properties, sports and commercial fishermen from Fish and Game clubs and so called salmon advocacy groups who need to spend their salmon restoration dollars somehow, but sadly have been hoodwinked into funding a cause that will supposedly save wild salmon.
As absolon stated the irony is it is these groups, along with FN, who are causing the highest mortality of BC’s wild salmon.
I understand 13,000 people had seen Morton’s latest documentary before it found it's way on line ... most likely donations were accepted before the screenings (can anyone reading this confirm that?)
If money was collected how is it accounted for? And what about the money you and other anti salmon farmers have donated to the cause (no names necessary, you know who you are, lol) ... did you receive receipts or any information on where your money went or was heading?
What's that, you didn't donate?? Oh.
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.......... I was meaning the cash and personal cheque donations of all the well meaning grey haired ladies from naturalist clubs, granola eaters and weekend hikers from the British Properties, sports and commercial fishermen from Fish and Game clubs and so called salmon advocacy groups who need to spend their salmon restoration dollars somehow, but sadly have been hoodwinked into funding a cause that will supposedly save wild salmon.
As absolon stated the irony is it is these groups, along with FN, who are causing the highest mortality of BC’s wild salmon.
I understand 13,000 people had seen Morton’s latest documentary before it found it's way on line ... most likely donations were accepted before the screenings (can anyone reading this confirm that?)
If money was collected how is it accounted for? And what about the money you and other anti salmon farmers have donated to the cause (no names necessary, you know who you are, lol) ... did you receive receipts or any information on where your money went or was heading?
What's that, you didn't donate?? Oh.
What a lot of nonsense! Unless people are walking by her and tucking bills into her pockets, every organization including fish and game clubs and advocacy groups are required to do their own accounting. Since 911 the financial reporting guidelines have become very strict in order to detect funding of terrorist organizations.
You and Abby can't be that naive to believe the nonsense you post.... :o on the other hand maybe you are.....
The feedlot industry has such a hate on for Morton, that probably this very minute they are trying to dig up dirt on her that they can use in their "PR campaigns". If they had the tiniest bit of information on her financial dealings that could be used to discredit her, they would have used it long ago. As a result they are smart enough to avoid making statements like you've made, which are slanderous and would likely land them in court.
Heck even the government finds her campaign to save wild salmon conflicts with their goal of increasing feedlots in the oceans and would discredit her if they could. They would have all the info they needed if in fact there was any evidence of financial indiscretion on her part. They certainly moved Staniford out the country quickly when they were able to.
Morton is not only passionate about wild salmon, she is not going to do anything as stupid as what you and others are suggesting. My sense is that personal financial gain is something she doesn't even consider.
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You need to look at what motivates people to write what they do. Feedlots will say and do whatever is necessary to continue generating profits by placing their cesspools in our ocean. Morton's sole motivation is to protect the wild salmon. The income she earns as a result could be labeled as poverty level.
I have donated to Dr. Morton's cause witch makes me fell like I am helping the cause of saving our salmon. I have not received any tax receipts. I was told however that the money goes to educating the public. I think there is no way Dr. Morton will say and do what ever it takes to continue generating profits. Dr. Morton is the most honest person I know.
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What a lot of nonsense! Unless people are walking by her and tucking bills into her pockets, every organization including fish and game clubs and advocacy groups are required to do their own accounting. Since 911 the financial reporting guidelines have become very strict in order to detect funding of terrorist organizations.
You and Abby can't be that naive to believe the nonsense you post.... :o on the other hand maybe you are.....
The feedlot industry has such a hate on for Morton, that probably this very minute they are trying to dig up dirt on her that they can use in their "PR campaigns". If they had the tiniest bit of information on her financial dealings that could be used to discredit her, they would have used it long ago. As a result they are smart enough to avoid making statements like you've made, which are slanderous and would likely land them in court.
Heck even the government finds her campaign to save wild salmon conflicts with their goal of increasing feedlots in the oceans and would discredit her if they could. They would have all the info they needed if in fact there was any evidence of financial indiscretion on her part. They certainly moved Staniford out the country quickly when they were able to.
Morton is not only passionate about wild salmon, she is not going to do anything as stupid as what you and others are suggesting. My sense is that personal financial gain is something she doesn't even consider.
Blah blah blah blah blah...........
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Thats positive thinking Fisherbob. :) I doubt she needs to rip people off in an attempt to save salmon.
The pro farm group are expierencing Mortonization. Like an acid flashback, leaving them parinoid. Craving the soothing affects from the chemicals in farmed salmon. :o
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Thats positive thinking Fisherbob. :) I doubt she needs to rip people off in an attempt to save salmon.
The pro farm group are expierencing Mortonization.
Thank you Troutbreath. Every thing that Dr. Morton predicted has come to be true. I am sure we can get more donations her way if we bang the table louder and make more noise. And AF is right. I should not be reading any of the feedlot news. It gave me to much to think a out.
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Thank you Troutbreath. Every thing that Dr. Morton predicted has come to be true. I am sure we can get more donations her way if we bang the table louder and make more noise. And AF is right. I should not be reading any of the feedlot news. It gave me to much to think a out.
Fisherbob, as far as I can tell you are the first person to admit they have donated money to Morton; although I don't agree I do admire your admission.
As for your statement regarding all her predictions having come true, perhaps her most famous and probably the beginning of her credibility downfall was the one regarding the extinction of Broughton pink salmon.
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And AF is right. I should not be reading any of the feedlot news. It gave me to much to think a out.
Doesn't your opinion on this subject warrant some thought? In fact, how can you form a valid opinion if you don't look at the information both sides offer and think about it?
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To me it sounds like he did. I don't think it was thoughtless on Fisherbobs behalf.
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That's not a criticism of Bob; that was a comment on AF's idea that you shouldn't look at the information on both sides as a basis for forming an opinion.
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I have donated to Dr. Morton's cause witch makes me fell like I am helping the cause of saving our salmon. I have not received any tax receipts. I was told however that the money goes to educating the public. I think there is no way Dr. Morton will say and do what ever it takes to continue generating profits. Dr. Morton is the most honest person I know.
Educating the public? Would you call what Jody Eriksson was doing as educating the public? Do you think it is reasonable to be suspicious of every spot, wound, and parasite on a salmon carcass on the spawning grounds? Are white coloured gills indicative of some suspicious European virus or do the gills on a salmon carcass natually turn from red/pink to white the longer the carcass is exposed to the environment (air, water, sun). Could there be a freshwater fungus on the gills that creates that fuzzy, white appearance - something that can happen the longer the fish is dead? What do you think, Bob?
Is Ms Morton really educating you about Harrison River Sockeye when she does not tell you that even they are not immune from high prespawn mortality? Ever been to the Harrison River in August and September? Did you ever wonder why Ms Morton has not mentioned anything about any Harrison Sockeye sample results considering that she had Chinook, Coho and Chum carcasses from that river tested for ISAV? What would that mean if Harrison Sockeye had tested positive for ISAV? Check out her latest website to see how non-transparent she is with this (http://deptwildsalmon.org/results/wild/).
Is Ms Morton really educating the public when she keeps saying that the CFIA audited the Atlantic Veterinary College lab, but the facts say otherwise? Don't take my word for it. If you don't believe me you can contact the OIE as they were the one that created the press release stating that they conducted the audit. Do you think the OIE is not telling the truth, Bob?
http://www.oie.int/for-the-media/press-releases/detail/article/information-on-oie-reference-laboratories/
Is Annisa Reed educating the public when she shows pictures of deformaties on farmed salmon but fails to state that deformaties are not necessarily an indication that the fish is not fit for human consumption? She also does not say that even stocked freshwater fish that anglers fish for and eat can have deformaties also. Are you going to stop eating stocked Rainbow Trout and Eastern Brook Trout? Do think it might be a better idea to talk to an actual fish biologist or a Fish Culturalist from a fish hatchery about this stuff than Annisa? What do you think, Bob?
Do you think the public is being educated when piscine reovirus (PRV) is being implicated by Ms Morton as the reason for enroute loss of Fraser River Sockeye when there is zero evidence to suggest that PRV impacts to the extent of causing "heart attacks" in adult salmon. If she is implying HSMI with migrating, adult Fraser Sockeye, did you know that HSMI is a disease that primarily affects younger fish and its timing has been well described and documented? http://www.int-res.com/abstracts/dao/v99/n1/p7-12/ (I noticed that a fish farm critic on another board did not read the whole article - omitting the distribution of PRV from presmolts to slaughter.)
Did you know that HSMI has never been found on BC fish farms? Has she provided any evidence of HSMI in adult Fraser Sockeye? Did you know that PRV has been found in healthy and unhealthy fish? Did you know that Ms Morton’s finding of PRV in healthy market sized fish is good evidence that PRV is very common in Atlantic salmon? Actually is it ubiquitous in Atlantic salmon. More importantly, if Ms Morton was really going to be educating you about enroute loss through the Fraser River do you think it would be reasonable to talk about the 12 years of research on environmental stressors done by Scott Hinch and his group? Do you think it would be reasonable to talk about the impact of water temperatures and water discharge in regards to enroute loss? How about how they interact with pathogens - even endemic ones? What does Ms Morton tell you about Mission and how accurate (or not) it is in some years? If people are really interested in being educated about enroute loss and known, documented stressors then start here: http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/TR/Project9-Report.pdf#zoom=100
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A little more on honesty.
This is from a post made yesterday by Morton at another site, my bolding added:
Justice Cohen's opinion in recommendation #18 is that all salmon farms be removed from the Discovery Islands unless DFO can show the salmon feedlots have LESS than minimal impact.
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This is Justice Cohen's recommendation #18, again my bolding added:
If at any time between now and September 30, 2020, the minister of fisheries and oceans determines that net-pen salmon farms in the Discovery Islands (fish health sub-zone 3-2) pose more than a minimal risk of serious harm to the health of migrating Fraser River sockeye salmon, he or she should promptly order that those salmon farms cease operations.
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A little more on honesty.
This is from a post made yesterday by Morton at another site, my bolding added:
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This is Justice Cohen's recommendation #18, again my bolding added:
Is that the best you can find to critique? Definitely a sign of desperation or maybe you just have too much free time..... ;D ;D
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Being a Mortonite, I can understand why you would have difficulty understanding the difference between the truth and Morton's version of the truth.
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it makes you wonder when the feedlot groups will have the epiphany necessary to realize that what they are involved in is just wrong.
it takes a conscious choice to realize that who you work for has no real concern for you or the environment. The unfortunate part of all this is that there are generally good people gainfully employed by the feedlots. Until their own employees either quit, or demand change nothing will really happen. It's unfortunate that such highly educated and respectable members of our society are choosing to ignore the lessons norway and chile are willing to teach us.
the fact that there are PR companies trying to convey a positive image for feedlots tells you something is a miss. you don't need to tell me your $hhht doesn't stink if it doesn't stink.
I just hope that in 20 years I can fish for wild salmon with my daughter. and only having hope, makes me worry.
not blaming feedlots completely for the decimation of wild stocks obviously, but a contributing factor for sure, just as environment degredation is as huge one as well. Open pens are a variable in this equation that can be controlled.
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Doesn't your opinion on this subject warrant some thought? In fact, how can you form a valid opinion if you don't look at the information both sides offer and think about it?
Yes Dave, after reading this, you may have a point.
http://www.thinkscotland.org/thinkpolitics/articles.html?read_full=12010&article=www.thinkscotland.org
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Good post Bob, obviously you are giving it some thought.
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Yes Dave, after reading this, you may have a point.
http://www.thinkscotland.org/thinkpolitics/articles.html?read_full=12010&article=www.thinkscotland.org
That article looks like something from the Fraser Institute. I think the reply it got captures the gist of it:
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While I agree that policy should be based on evidence, it is unfortunate that this article is chock full of baseless assertion about what the 'real' problems are, what the solutions should be and the motives of the 'green lobby'. He also accuses the green lobby of being alarmist, and then asserts that "we can't regress to being hunting and gathering cave-dwellers"... As regards his comment that "radical environmentalism is now causing vital industries to migrate to countries where they can thrive", I invite Mr. Acheson to spend a morning bathing in the Pearl River Delta and report back on his findings to this publication. I imagine he would describe himself as a 'free-market capitalist', so it's a shame his article fails to recognise the status of ecological impacts as externalities in economic transactions.
Posted on 13/03/2013 by GW
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I think the article makes a very relevant point:
.........Much of the green lobby's success is directly attributable to its ability to demonise and brand opponents as heretics, even if their arguments are based on verifiable evidence or if they simply want to promote intelligent discussion. Through their 'hearts and minds’ campaigns centred on perceived environmental injustices, the green lobby uses radical, ‘sexy’ catastrophe theories to bombard us with predictions of ecological collapse. We are warned that there is no time for debate; that radical and swift action is necessary to avoid environmental apocalypse...........
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" the green lobby uses radical, ‘sexy’ catastrophe theories "
It's not often you see "sexy" and "catastrophe" in the same sentence. :o
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If I read only the fish feedlot blogs and accepted them as being the truth...... I'd probably have the same thoughts you are having.
Morton's sole motivation is to protect the wild salmon. The income she earns as a result could be labeled as poverty level.
What would you think AF if DR. Morton took her feedlot drive to her home land just a few miles south of the Canada US boarder where Atlantic's are farmed? She should be able to at least double her income we donate from her fellow countrymen and the fine US foundations that support the drive in Canada. This might get her off the poverty level. I am confused why her fight is only in Canada.
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" the green lobby uses radical, ‘sexy’ catastrophe theories "
It's not often you see "sexy" and "catastrophe" in the same sentence. :o
Presumably the word is used in the context of attracting attention rather than causing arousal.
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What would you think AF if DR. Morton took her feedlot drive to her home land just a few miles south of the Canada US boarder where Atlantic's are farmed? She should be able to at least double her income we donate from her fellow countrymen and the fine US foundations that support the drive in Canada. This might get her off the poverty level. I am confused why her fight is only in Canada.
First Fisherbob, her "homeland" is Canada (you may not be aware that she considered running for the NDP a couple years ago). Second, she is not motivated by money so going somewhere that she might get more donations is likely not a motivating factor. Third, why would she want to focus on the US (why would we want her to focus on the US) when there is so much more work to do in Canada to get the feedlots out of our oceans.
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First Fisherbob, her "homeland" is Canada (you may not be aware that she considered running for the NDP a couple years ago). Second, she is not motivated by money so going somewhere that she might get more donations is likely not a motivating factor. Third, why would she want to focus on the US (why would we want her to focus on the US) when there is so much more work to do in Canada to get the feedlots out of our oceans.
Would piss off billionaire Mom too ;)
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First Fisherbob, her "homeland" is Canada (you may not be aware that she considered running for the NDP a couple years ago). Second, she is not motivated by money so going somewhere that she might get more donations is likely not a motivating factor. Third, why would she want to focus on the US (why would we want her to focus on the US) when there is so much more work to do in Canada to get the feedlots out of our oceans.
First of all, are you sure of DR. Mortons home of origin? I understand it is the US. I do some investigation before donating. Second, why are we not worried about Washington Atlantic feedlot salmon escaping and traveling north through our waters? We can ride our waters of feedlots, but it looks like we can not stop feedlot salmon migrating in our waters. What is the good of my hard earned $s donated to Dr. Mortons cause if a few miles south of us can still feedlot those parasites? Alaska fishermen say they catch feedlot salmon. Do my donation $s to DR. Morton go to find out where they come from? Looks like we need to get together on this with DR. Morton.
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It amazes me that some still think she does this for money. ::)
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It amazes me that some still think she does this for money. ::)
She had better start. Many of us have gave money to her cause. Lets get the Washington Atlantic feedlots out of the Pacific also.
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Since I don't have time to read the back and forth bickering between guys who share the same passion and interest, yet choose to be wilfully blind and argue with each other regarding an issue which, ironically poses a real threat to said passion and interest, I apologize if this is a repeat of what someone said, but to whoever questioned where donation money goes...
Raincoast Research money goes towards ISA sampling: http://www.raincoastresearch.org/home.htm
and Adopt-A-Fry goes to legal and campaign costs. Such as - organizing/funding rallies and marches, taking the government to court (expensive!), etc. Details can be found here: http://www.adopt-a-fry.org.
That is all.
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Since I don't have time to read the back and forth bickering between guys who share the same passion and interest, yet choose to be wilfully blind and argue with each other regarding an issue which, ironically poses a real threat to said passion and interest, I apologize if this is a repeat of what someone said, but to whoever questioned where donation money goes...
Raincoast Research money goes towards ISA sampling: http://www.raincoastresearch.org/home.htm
and Adopt-A-Fry goes to legal and campaign costs. Such as - organizing/funding rallies and marches, taking the government to court (expensive!), etc. Details can be found here: http://www.adopt-a-fry.org.
That is all.
Sure am happy to see none of my donations went to educating the public about the Atlantic feedlots in Puget Sound. You know, the one just south of the invisible boarder.
Nuff said.
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Why can DR. Morton not start bringing the Washington Atlantic feedlots to their knees? She should have no trouble getting the funding for it.
http://fairquestions.typepad.com/rethink_campaigns/alexandra-morton-non-profit-revenue-2000-2010.html
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Why can DR. Morton not start bringing the Washington Atlantic feedlots to their knees? She should have no trouble getting the funding for it.
http://fairquestions.typepad.com/rethink_campaigns/alexandra-morton-non-profit-revenue-2000-2010.html
You're hilarious! Hopefully you realize that the silly biased article you just posted shows the revenue from 2000 to 2010. On average Morton's organization had donations of approximately $91,000 per year in that period of time. For most families that is a basic income.
Morton ran her organization, paid legal bills, research and still had to pay for her living expenses with that money.
Perhaps if you increased your annual donations by approximately $90,000 per year, she would be able to address the US feedlots......
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You're hilarious! Hopefully you realize that the silly biased article you just posted shows the revenue from 2000 to 2010. On average Morton's organization had donations of approximately $91,000 per year in that period of time. For most families that is a basic income.
Morton ran her organization, paid legal bills, research and still had to pay for her living expenses with that money.
Perhaps if you increased your annual donations by approximately $90,000 per year, she would be able to address the US feedlots......
That is a very good wage and I still expect DR. Morton to address the problems of Atlantic feedlots in her own country as well.
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You're hilarious!
No, he's curious. Fisherbob, the more you check the more you will regret your donation.
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That is a very good wage and I still expect DR. Morton to address the problems of Atlantic feedlots in her own country as well.
Not sure if you are naive or are just purposely misunderstanding the point..... If you investigate further (check the financial reports for her organization on the government website), you will see a breakdown of how the money her organization received, was allocated. In many of those years she did not take any wages. Probably 80% of the income her organization received was spent on research and legal.
I appreciate the passion you show to remove feedlots from Washington state. I just wish you wouldn't stack that responsibility onto Morton... With her limited resources, I for one want her to focus all of them on the Canadian feedlots. Let's just agree to disagree on that topic.
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Not sure if you are naive or are just purposely misunderstanding the point..... If you investigate further (check the financial reports for her organization on the government website), you will see a breakdown of how the money her organization received, was allocated. In many of those years she did not take any wages. Probably 80% of the income her organization received was spent on research and legal.
I appreciate the passion you show to remove feedlots from Washington state. I just wish you wouldn't stack that responsibility onto Morton... With her limited resources, I for one want her to focus all of them on the Canadian feedlots. Let's just agree to disagree on that topic.
Naive would be getting the feedlots out of BC and leting Washinton grow Attlantics in cesspool feedlots thinking no harm can be done to our wild salmon a few miles north of that invisable line. They could escape and, oops, one wrong turn and up the Fraser they go. For DR. Morton, or anyone to turn a blind eye to that is naive.
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Trolling may be going on here by one of our new posters. :-\
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Trolling may be going on here by one of our new posters. :-\
If you are referring to me Chris, yes I am trolling. Trolling for my hard earned dollars that I have donated to DR. Morton's cause to get the job done. Would you not say anything if your investments didn't meet your expectations? I am very sorry some people can not see south of the 49th. Why is it just in BC?
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It's always a case of "buyer beware". If you have given morton thousands of dollars then hopefully you don't do that again. Sometimes expecting one person to be the new Messiah on resolving issues only leads to disappointment.
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Trolling may be going on here by one of our new posters. :-\
At least he's now earned the right to access the fishing reports..... ;D ;D
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If you are referring to me Chris, yes I am trolling. Trolling for my hard earned dollars that I have donated to DR. Morton's cause to get the job done. Would you not say anything if your investments didn't meet your expectations? I am very sorry some people can not see south of the 49th. Why is it just in BC?
Well if you have contributed money and I have no reason to not believe you and good for you for doing so as you have joined thousands that have, in time and funds to try and get to the bottom of this issue.
In saying that I would suggest you write Alex and tell her you have contributed money and inform her what you believe should be done.
As I have said before one can tackle only so much at a time, maybe you or someone else has the time, funds, energy and knowledge to get involved in dealing with the issue you have brought up several times.
I am going to leave this part of the discussion up to you now.
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At least he's now earned the right to access the fishing reports..... ;D ;D
Does he fish or buy his fish at a grocery store? ;) :D
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Ouch, my butt sure got a kicking there. Was I tardy when there was a meeting between DR. Morton's American funders and gagged her and her followers like me from pointing at the Washington feedlots? Just asking. If so, I will gag up.
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You will notice of course who did the kicking ..
Kinda like your style Fisherbob ;D
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You will notice of course who did the kicking ..
Kinda like your style Fisherbob ;D
I'm still trying to figure out his "style". He appears to be anti Washington State feedlots, not sure what his stance is on BC feedlots, he wants Morton to get rid of Washington feedlots, so on one hand he seems to be pro Morton. On the other hand he keeps throwing out the typical feedlot boy anti-Morton rhetoric.
Maybe as he said at the beginning, he is undecided and is sitting on the fence...... unfortunately it's a picket fence so the pain he feels is not a butt kicking.
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Picket fence for sure. :)
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You guys just do not get it. I want the salmon feedlots out of BC. I have donated to this cause and said so when asked. Did any of you? No. Just smart remarks. Thanks guys. All I have said, what is the good of getting the feedlots out of BC and letting Washington grow them. If we anti-feedlot people can not see this problem it will be the last we see of our wild stocks. Is that not what we care about for generations to come. We have to look out side the box we are given.
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Picket fence for sure. :)
Very nice btw TB. I see my donations have gone to the right people :)
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Ouch, my butt sure got a kicking there. Was I tardy when there was a meeting between DR. Morton's American funders and gagged her and her followers like me from pointing at the Washington feedlots? Just asking. If so, I will gag up.
Ya your tardy! I think you should gag up.... your reasoning is hard to follow....
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Ya your tardy! I think you should gag up.... your reasoning is hard to follow....
Thank you Gilbey. I see now that I have given info to fast to fit into small boxes. I will abstain from further information. Or I can talk slower, you pick :)
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LOL!
I don't care who you are, that was funny.
"The small box boys"...........LOL!
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LOL!
I don't care who you are, that was funny.
"The small box boys"...........LOL!
But not boxed it. ;D ;D ;D
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http://www.campbellrivermirror.com/news/199431241.html?fb_comment_id=fbc_169349493218733_491997_169385073215175
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http://salmonconfidential.com/busting-the-myths/
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http://salmonconfidential.com/busting-the-myths/
Kudos to you Chris for posting that link ... about time you came out :D
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Kudos to you Chris for posting that link ... about time you came out :D
I think Chris posted it so that everyone could have a good laugh.....
Thanks Chris, best bit of funny fiction I've read in a long time.
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Kudos to you Chris for posting that link ... about time you came out :D
Nice try. ;D ;D
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I think Chris posted it so that everyone could have a good laugh.....
Thanks Chris, best bit of funny fiction I've read in a long time.
You mean the fiction that said that Harrison Sockeye do not experience pre-spawn mortality?
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LOL!
I don't care who you are, that was funny.
"The small box boys"...........LOL!
Try, the small box boy.......LOL
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What the producers of Salmon Confidential apparently did not want Dr. Miller to say on the film.....
http://www.cahs-bc.ca/sites/default/files/Miller_GenomicSignatures_Jan2011-V2.pdf
(More fiction for you, AF.....It seems as though you skipped over the link when you were on that website)
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Boycott any place that sells farmed fish, like superstore, Safeway, Walmart. Dont buy anything at these stores until they take it off the shelfs. This crap is dangerous to your health. It's full of antibiotics , drugs , food colouring . , and it's not sustainable!
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What the producers of Salmon Confidential apparently did not want Dr. Miller to say on the film.....
http://www.cahs-bc.ca/sites/default/files/Miller_GenomicSignatures_Jan2011-V2.pdf
(More fiction for you, AF.....It seems as though you skipped over the link when you were on that website)
Thanks SS for the link....very informative (to some of us, anyway).
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The Trailer
http://vimeo.com/64847457
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A very well done film I must say and hats off to Morton's passion. How ever, no more donations will come from me.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=269
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A very well done film I must say and hats off to Morton's passion. How ever, no more donations will come from me.
http://blog.farmfreshsalmon.org/?p=269
Thanks for your donations in the past, maybe one day you will change your mind again. ;D
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Thanks for your donations in the past, maybe one day you will change your mind again. ;D
Wow! They are still editing out the things they don't want you to hear ...like Miller's complete testimony, amazing. Morton is still spewing garbage and cannot even identify Pacific salmon; check out the revelation at 1:03 when she calls a sockeye a coho. Amazing.
What did P.T Barnum supposedly say ... lol!
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Wow! They are still editing out the things they don't want you to hear ...like Miller's complete testimony, amazing. Morton is still spewing garbage and cannot even identify Pacific salmon; check out the revelation at 1:03 when she calls a sockeye a coho. Amazing.
What did P.T Barnum supposedly say ... lol!
You must be enjoying the film Dave.... sounds like you've viewed it a few times. ;D
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Yes, I have and you know what I think of it.
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http://vimeo.com/64972075
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http://vimeo.com/64972075
sad......
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sad......
here is what the movie doesn't say about this .... sad
http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/04/17/the-character-assassination-of-simon-jones/
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While I was reading that link Dave, the screen went blank then came back with some edited changes. Sad.... :'(
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here is what the movie doesn't say about this .... sad
http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/04/17/the-character-assassination-of-simon-jones/ (http://salmonconfidential.com/2013/04/17/the-character-assassination-of-simon-jones/)
There's always 2 sides to a story Dave. When looking at which side to believe I always try and examine the motivation. The feedlot industry and the government are fighting to protect an industry that clearly shouldn't exist due to the damage they are causing, versus a few individuals who care about the environment, using private donations to educate the public.
A personal distaste I have is the sleezy approach the salmonconfidential.com people took to stealing the salmonconfidential .ca website name and registering it under .com, then using it to slag the movie and people that made it. They obviously took advantage of the naivety of the salmonconfidential people, who clearly should have registered the .com name as well. But this is an indication of the characteristics of the "anonymous", read "feedlot" people who are spreading their own special form of manure on their website.
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There's always 2 sides to a story Dave. When looking at which side to believe I always try and examine the motivation. The feedlot industry and the government are fighting to protect an industry that clearly shouldn't exist due to the damage they are causing, versus a few individuals who care about the environment, using private donations to educate the public.
A personal distaste I have is the sleezy approach the salmonconfidential.com people took to stealing the salmonconfidential .ca website name and registering it under .com, then using it to slag the movie and people that made it. They obviously took advantage of the naivety of the salmonconfidential people, who clearly should have registered the .com name as well. But this is an indication of the characteristics of the "anonymous", read "feedlot" people who are spreading their own special form of manure on their website.
Yeah, lets talk about sleaziness and the ethics of Morton and Roscovich ... what would you call editing Dr's Jones, Miller and Marty's testimony and interviews to spin their version of declining salmon in BC? Or for Roscovich pretending to be a television reporter to obtain an interview with Gary Marty? One word that comes to my mind is shameless.
Why is there no mention of overfishing from sporties, commercial and aboriginal fishers (oh right, they are the main supporters of this group) or habitat loss or climate change in this entire film? How can anyone truly believe salmon farms are the cause of wild salmon declines when in over 30 years here in BC, there has not been one single incident to support that claim?
You are constantly calling for transparency regarding salmon farms and yet you, Chris and others seem OK with and indeed support these people and this shoddy and unethical journalism.
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You are constantly calling for transparency regarding salmon farms and yet you, Chris and others seem OK with and indeed support these people and this shoddy and unethical journalism.
I recognize how strongly entrenched you are in your support of the feedlot industry. It's hard for me to believe that the creators of the film are so devious in their thinking that they were able to spin actual recorded interviews in order to show that the people said the opposite of what they meant. These are the same folks that failed to register the .com name leaving themselves open to the current feedlot industry attacks.
What is more believable is that the feedlot industry is using the resources they have at their disposal (which is many times what Morton et all have at their disposal) and is spinning everything in an attempt to discredit a great effort at bringing to light how the government and industry are slowly destroying our wild salmon runs. (Yes there are other problems that need to be addressed but the feedlots must be brought under control first)
I recognize the feedlot spin whenever any of you feedlot boys post on a topic. I don't have any expectation of swaying your views.
Like you, I'll state my views and if anyone reads them, they will make up their own minds.
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I recognize how strongly entrenched you are in your support of the feedlot industry. It's hard for me to believe that the creators of the film are so devious in their thinking that they were able to spin actual recorded interviews in order to show that the people said the opposite of what they meant. These are the same folks that failed to register the .com name leaving themselves open to the current feedlot industry attacks.
What is more believable is that the feedlot industry is using the resources they have at their disposal (which is many times what Morton et all have at their disposal) and is spinning everything in an attempt to discredit a great effort at bringing to light how the government and industry are slowly destroying our wild salmon runs. (Yes there are other problems that need to be addressed but the feedlots must be brought under control first)
I recognize the feedlot spin whenever any of you feedlot boys post on a topic. I don't have any expectation of swaying your views.
Like you, I'll state my views and if anyone reads them, they will make up their own minds.
Ahhh and the Joeseph Goebells school of journalism wins another one....lmao. ;D
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Ahhh and the Joeseph Goebells school of journalism wins another one....lmao. ;D
#GodwinsLaw!
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#GodwinsLaw!
Losers form of censorship.
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Nein!!
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http://commonground.ca/2013/05/salmon-confidential/
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The only virus I can see now from Morton and Staniford is the virus called fear. Look that one up.