Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: adriaticum on January 12, 2013, 08:48:57 AM
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http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/2070949556001#.UOzQW4yVdlA.gmail
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I was hoping that this idio$ ("chief" Spense) wouldn't warrant any space on at least one forum. Unfortunately.....
What a disgrace to Canada.
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Some good points to think about.
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The whole movement is a joke.
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I was hoping that this idio$ ("chief" Spense) wouldn't warrant any space on at least one forum. Unfortunately.....
What a disgrace to Canada.
I know but this is a very important, current, issue that could really escalate quickly.
Then it will be on everyone's mind.
I am trying to understand what's going on here.
They are making it sound like there is something really going on. :-\
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The problem I have with it is it's a diversion tactic. There is apparently widespread mismanagement that is going on in these communities and as it comes to light they have come up with this latest diversion. They say the best defense is a good offense and they have obviously caught on to that.
The problem is the general public is buying it.... Imagine if a Caucasian politician diverted funds from their community to feed their personal greedy aspirations. Once the media got hold of it the politician would be tarred and feathered and run out of town. Yet we have an Indian politician who is doing that and we are finding it acceptable. Is it because she is Indian and because of the "guilt" we carry for how we treated them in the past that we allow this? Is it a political hot potato that we don't want to touch? Reminds me of the Romanian immigration issue that Canada is currently dealing with or even the food and ceremonial native fishery.
I have a problem with different standards of right and wrong for one person versus another. We have to realize that we are being taken advantage of and put a stop to it.
End rant.
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I feel it is the fist nation people them selves that need to stand up in the idle no more and point their fingers at their own leaders first. That will not happen any time soon I fear.
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AF, I agree with everything you said.
Sometimes I wish I was FN.
I would have access to all this land and as a white guy I can only hope.
As much as I like and respect certain FN individuals I met over the years I think overall it's getting out of hand.
They keep wanting independence and government keeps giving them more autonomy.
Then they whine that government is not doing enough.
It is high time this is resolved once and for all.
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Idle No More, Meet the Norwegians
Canada's elite lack guts dealing with oil giants. First Nations might embolden all of us.
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2013/01/10/Idle-No-More-Norway/
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Are the Norwegians not also one of the largest salmon feedlot countries in the world giving employment and income?
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Idle No More, Meet the Norwegians
Canada's elite lack guts dealing with oil giants. First Nations might embolden all of us.
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2013/01/10/Idle-No-More-Norway/
I agree with a nation like Norway benefiting from their resources. However this should not be misinterpreted as a win lose for the country versus industry. The fact is, if the oil industry was not generating a profit they would not have invested the money in order to develop the oil in the first place.
I disagree with the sense of entitlement that the FN obviously have. Treaty settlements need to be finalized/imposed on them so they can be integrated into the Canadian culture and economy. Billions are paid out to FN annually to support a welfare system that sees no end. FN have become a giant lobby group. Can't blame them for asking, however I do blame our leaders for constantly caving in. Reminds me of the early days when Quebec pushed for separation and politicians of the day caved in and gave them most of what they demanded.
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Canada's elite lack guts dealing with oil giants.
That's silly.
They are on their payroll.
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It's disgusting . All Canadians hard earned taxes being wasted like that. There has to be more accountability from the federal gov. And First Nations,
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It's going to be a hot summer and I don't mean the weather.
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Idle No More, Meet the Norwegians
Canada's elite lack guts dealing with oil giants. First Nations might embolden all of us.
I'm pretty sure the Conservative party are getting some chicken feed from the oil industry for pushing for the pipeline. It helps them fund the next election propaganda.
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It's disgusting . All Canadians hard earned taxes being wasted like that. There has to be more accountability from the federal gov. And First Nations,
There has to be more acountability from all levels of government!
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They lost any hope of credibility when they started abusing the Canadian flag in a very public way.Many aboriginal people fought for this country with honour in the past.The idea that any tribe is a nation is fine but if the credibility stretch is to be made that those nations are to be treated as countries unto themselves with separate systems of law on equal footing with the country of Canada,then they can just think again.
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Canada, Prepare For Many More Blockades as Natives are Prepared to Shutdown Railways, Highways and Bridges If Necessary !!!!
Just a few fact's:
Approx. 1.17 million aboriginal people in Canada 3% of total pop. The Govt. gives approx. $8 billion per year to the aboriginal cause.
Some native's believe that the 630 bands in Canada are not native communities but rather sovereign nation's and should be dealt with by Canada nation to nation.
In October 2012 four women from Sask. began a protest movement against omnibus Bill C-45 and thus Idle No More was born.
The movement picked up international attention on Dec. 11 when Attawapiskat Chief Teresa Spence began a hunger strike.
Facts about Chief Spences native band: Federal Govt. does audit in 2012. Between 2005 and 2011 the band was given approx. 104 million dollars. 81% did not have supporting documents and over 60% of the money had no documentation to explain where it went.
1600 people live in approx. 300 homes on reserve. They have 3 chiefs and 18 councillor's-21 fulltime paid politicians on payroll.
In contrast: Toronto - 1 mayor-44 councillor's, pop. - 2.75 million people.
Some families in the band have no running water or electricity.
Chief Spences live in boyfriend earns $850.00 per day as co-manager. Chief Spences owns a Cadillac SUV. Together they make over $250,00 per year, tax free. Have $9 million in a stock portfolio.
Hypocrisy, lies, mismanagement of funds, what do you think ? Thought's please !
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Canada, Prepare For Many More Blockades as Natives are Prepared to Shutdown Railways, Highways and Bridges If Necessary !!!!
Just a few fact's:
Approx. 1.17 million aboriginal people in Canada 3% of total pop. The Govt. gives approx. $8 billion per year to the aboriginal cause.
Some native's believe that the 630 bands in Canada are not native communities but rather sovereign nation's and should be dealt with by Canada nation to nation.
In October 2012 four women from Sask. began a protest movement against omnibus Bill C-45 and thus Idle No More was born.
The movement picked up international attention on Dec. 11 when Attawapiskat Chief Teresa Spence began a hunger strike.
Facts about Chief Spences native band: Federal Govt. does audit in 2012. Between 2005 and 2011 the band was given approx. 104 million dollars. 81% did not have supporting documents and over 60% of the money had no documentation to explain where it went.
1600 people live in approx. 300 homes on reserve. They have 3 chiefs and 18 councillor's-21 fulltime paid politicians on payroll.
In contrast: Toronto - 1 mayor-44 councillor's, pop. - 2.75 million people.
Some families in the band have no running water or electricity.
Chief Spences live in boyfriend earns $850.00 per day as co-manager. Chief Spences owns a Cadillac SUV. Together they make over $250,00 per year, tax free. Have $9 million in a stock portfolio.
Hypocrisy, lies, mismanagement of funds, what do you think ? Thought's please !
I agree with you, their own people are ripping them off but they don't know that. FNs tend to blame Europeans for everything.
I am sick and tired of seing my money go to FNs, accomplish nothing, and then I get slack all the time.
They will never appreciate what they have because they don't have to work for it.
The big question is what are the non-FNs prepared to do about it.
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You got that right trout breath!
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I agree with you, their own people are ripping them off but they don't know that. FNs tend to blame Europeans for everything.
I am sick and tired of seing my money go to FNs, accomplish nothing, and then I get slack all the time.
They will never appreciate what they have because they don't have to work for it.
The big question is what are the non-FNs prepared to do about it.
Funny thing is they are not worried about Bill C-45 so much it's Bill C-27, the Firsts Nations Financial Transparency Act that has all the chief's and council members scared as hell. The First Nations Financial Transparency Act — would require every reserve in this country to annually cough up its financials, including the salaries of chiefs and band councils. They are all more than willing to keep taking the billion's that We give Them as long as there are no demands for accountability.
The politically correct follower's of Idle No More are happy to protest but ask them to face the truth and show us where the missing millions of dollars went then they become angry and loud. It seems so self righteous and ludicrous, even as some natives live in an unheated shack with no electricity that they can just look out their window and see their Chief driving her Cadillac Escalade to home.
You want to know where the problems are, let's start there.
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http://elysebruce.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/idle-no-more-about-that-fn-trust/
reality check here!
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http://elysebruce.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/idle-no-more-about-that-fn-trust/
reality check here!
Why don't you explain what you see as a reality in this article...
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interesting video
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid868989705001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAybGjzqk~,6NfTc6c241GVQxOh-GBHNHu5Cuhlf-y9&bctid=1741805410001
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interesting video
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid868989705001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAybGjzqk~,6NfTc6c241GVQxOh-GBHNHu5Cuhlf-y9&bctid=1741805410001
Absolutely disgusting that they get all those handouts, we need to start telling our government to stop giving them those outrageous amounts of contracts and money when they don't know how to use the funds properly.
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I see a bunch of you skipped early Canadian History class. What do you all know about the alliances and agreements among the British, French and Indians that forged this country?
Let's start with Treaties. Treaties established over the last several hundred years were business partnerships between Indian leaders and the British and Dominion governments who recognized their aboriginal rights to the land but wanted more Indian land for settlement and development (trains, roads, navigation and mining mostly). So they made a bunch of deals with the existing Indian Bands called Treaties. FNs surrendered certain aboriginal land rights (not all) to the government as investment capital in exchange for a long-term return on that investment that included education funding, annual payments (called Treaty annuities), and the maintenance of aboriginal rights to the land for gathering, hunting, fishing, trapping (which the government refused to maintain and defend after all, allowing white men to clean out the fur bearers and large game). If First Nation governments had not agreed to establish Treaties, Canada would be quite different than it is today. Existing treaty rights like education, new treaty negotiations and universal health care are among some of the reasons why we provide billions of dollars a year to FNs as part of this business partnership.
There's a lot of other BS in this thread about Attawapiskat from guys posting "facts" from rants by Ezra Levant. He's the biggest right wing hate monger in the country and is notorious for making up his own version of the facts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Levant)
Like the $9million stock portfolio that Chief Spence and her partner supposedly have. That's the bands trust portfolio of annual royalties from the multi-billion dollar DeBeers diamond mine, held in trust for future generations. Not quite what Ezra claimed is it?
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1312182--walkom-the-real-story-behind-attawapiskat-s-problems (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1312182--walkom-the-real-story-behind-attawapiskat-s-problems)
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I see a bunch of you skipped early Canadian History class. What do you all know about the alliances and agreements among the British, French and Indians that forged this country?
Let's start with Treaties. Treaties established over the last several hundred years were business partnerships between Indian leaders and the British and Dominion governments who recognized their aboriginal rights to the land but wanted more Indian land for settlement and development (trains, roads, navigation and mining mostly). So they made a bunch of deals with the existing Indian Bands called Treaties. FNs surrendered certain aboriginal land rights (not all) to the government as investment capital in exchange for a long-term return on that investment that included education funding, annual payments (called Treaty annuities), and the maintenance of aboriginal rights to the land for gathering, hunting, fishing, trapping (which the government refused to maintain and defend after all, allowing white men to clean out the fur bearers and large game). If First Nation governments had not agreed to establish Treaties, Canada would be quite different than it is today. Existing treaty rights like education, new treaty negotiations and universal health care are among some of the reasons why we provide billions of dollars a year to FNs as part of this business partnership.
There's a lot of other BS in this thread about Attawapiskat from guys posting "facts" from rants by Ezra Levant. He's the biggest right wing hate monger in the country and is notorious for making up his own version of the facts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Levant)
Like the $9million stock portfolio that Chief Spence and her partner supposedly have. That's the bands trust portfolio of annual royalties from the multi-billion dollar DeBeers diamond mine, held in trust for future generations. Not quite what Ezra claimed is it?
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1312182--walkom-the-real-story-behind-attawapiskat-s-problems (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1312182--walkom-the-real-story-behind-attawapiskat-s-problems)
Agreed, the arrogance and ignorance expressed in this thread is disgraceful and a condemnation of our own education system that has utterly failed to teach Canadians their own history. These are not "hand outs" the FN are receiving and it is not "your tax dollars" they are "wasting." These are monies set up in trust in exchange for the use of the vast majority of their lands in the country we now call Canada (a first nation's word for village: kanata). Not only is this money we owe the FN people and their descendants for the continued use of their lands as set out in signed Treaties (treaties between sovereign peoples), but our government has a long history of unilaterally changing the terms of those agreements whenever it pleases them, and the FN are finally standing up and saying enough is enough. Imagine you bought a piece of land from your neighbour for a great deal. then a few years later you discovered oil on that part of the property and then your neighbour was able to rewrite the agreement and force you to give back the land with the oil, accept another piece of land ( a smaller piece) and offered you either little or no compensation for the exchange, including the loss of any improvements you had already paid for on that land? I bet you would be pissed too.
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I think you guys are over reacting just a bit and coming off a little self righteous in the process. While some of the points you make are valid, the problem is about how FN leaders are not being held accountable for their finances. You may slag Ezra, but you are failing to recognize that the generally left wing media (where most of us get our "news") is failing to report the full story. While Ezra may be over the top in some of his views, at least he is reporting on the issues the media is unwilling to touch.
The poverty in many of the FN communities are real and the FN leaders are taking advantage of their people is real. Part of the protest movement (lead by FN leaders) is about resisting more transparency and accountability on how they spend their money. This is a very basic requirement in my opinion. While the FN argue for independence and self governance, they are not qualified to handle it at this point.
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their protest might be doing them more harm then good
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canadians-attitudes-hardening-on-aboriginal-issues-new-poll/article7408516/
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I see a bunch of you skipped early Canadian History class. What do you all know about the alliances and agreements among the British, French and Indians that forged this country?
Let's start with Treaties. Treaties established over the last several hundred years were business partnerships between Indian leaders and the British and Dominion governments who recognized their aboriginal rights to the land but wanted more Indian land for settlement and development (trains, roads, navigation and mining mostly). So they made a bunch of deals with the existing Indian Bands called Treaties. FNs surrendered certain aboriginal land rights (not all) to the government as investment capital in exchange for a long-term return on that investment that included education funding, annual payments (called Treaty annuities), and the maintenance of aboriginal rights to the land for gathering, hunting, fishing, trapping (which the government refused to maintain and defend after all, allowing white men to clean out the fur bearers and large game). If First Nation governments had not agreed to establish Treaties, Canada would be quite different than it is today. Existing treaty rights like education, new treaty negotiations and universal health care are among some of the reasons why we provide billions of dollars a year to FNs as part of this business partnership.
There's a lot of other BS in this thread about Attawapiskat from guys posting "facts" from rants by Ezra Levant. He's the biggest right wing hate monger in the country and is notorious for making up his own version of the facts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Levant)
Like the $9million stock portfolio that Chief Spence and her partner supposedly have. That's the bands trust portfolio of annual royalties from the multi-billion dollar DeBeers diamond mine, held in trust for future generations. Not quite what Ezra claimed is it?
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1312182--walkom-the-real-story-behind-attawapiskat-s-problems (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1312182--walkom-the-real-story-behind-attawapiskat-s-problems)
Actually I think you missed the history lessons. Or at least you are interpreting them as you see it.
You are talking about some "business" like deals or something like we are leasing their land.
Treaties were setup for many reasons and leasing the land from the FNs wasn't one of them.
They were setup to preserve FNs culture, to have an ally against US that always had tendencies to "drop in".
Treates were setup so that FN we not eliminated which happened in the US and so on.
Last I remember FNs were losing out the land to the "guns" anyway.
Indians knew that Europeans were going to settle in the land whether treaties existed or not so they did one smart thing they could.
They agreed to treaties that would preserve some land for them. And when you look at it, they have an excellent deal.
And yes the moneys given to them are "handouts". Basically a welfare system that is keeping them just above water. Barely.
If they knew better they would not take that money and would learn to become self sufficient.
Sandman, to talk about "sovereign peoples", "use of the land" is to truly not understand the politics of the day.
Now I may sound like I'm anti FNs, which is not true at all.
I would rather they face reality and get with the times.
The times of free roaming the land, hunting and gathering are long over (although I missed those days too :D) and they should get over it already or they will go further and further into oblivion.
Look a the Osoyoos band. They didn't take government handouts and made themselves prosperous thanks to, in large part, a few good men.
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A individual Canadian wrote this:
http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/full-comment/blog.html?b=fullcomment.nationalpost.com%2F2013%2F01%2F23%2Fanthony-sowan-why-idle-no-more-holds-back-the-dream-of-canadian-equality (http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/full-comment/blog.html?b=fullcomment.nationalpost.com%2F2013%2F01%2F23%2Fanthony-sowan-why-idle-no-more-holds-back-the-dream-of-canadian-equality)
If you ask me the worst part of the idle no more movement is the participation of spence. This just after her and the tribal government she runs is proven to have failed money matters miserably. And they back her as a leader of idle no more! Just plain confusing. Idol no more should be protesting against spence!!!! I agree with the fella that wrote the above in that the movement is doomed to fail which would suit spence and other corrupt band leadership just fine.
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Actually I think you missed the history lessons. Or at least you are interpreting them as you see it.
You are talking about some "business" like deals or something like we are leasing their land.
Treaties were setup for many reasons and leasing the land from the FNs wasn't one of them.
They were setup to preserve FNs culture, to have an ally against US that always had tendencies to "drop in".
Treates were setup so that FN we not eliminated which happened in the US and so on.
Last I remember FNs were losing out the land to the "guns" anyway.
Indians knew that Europeans were going to settle in the land whether treaties existed or not so they did one smart thing they could.
They agreed to treaties that would preserve some land for them. And when you look at it, they have an excellent deal.
And yes the moneys given to them are "handouts". Basically a welfare system that is keeping them just above water. Barely.
If they knew better they would not take that money and would learn to become self sufficient.
Sandman, to talk about "sovereign peoples", "use of the land" is to truly not understand the politics of the day.
Now I may sound like I'm anti FNs, which is not true at all.
I would rather they face reality and get with the times.
The times of free roaming the land, hunting and gathering are long over (although I missed those days too :D) and they should get over it already or they will go further and further into oblivion.
Look a the Osoyoos band. They didn't take government handouts and made themselves prosperous thanks to, in large part, a few good men.
Well said!
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A individual Canadian wrote this:
http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/full-comment/blog.html?b=fullcomment.nationalpost.com%2F2013%2F01%2F23%2Fanthony-sowan-why-idle-no-more-holds-back-the-dream-of-canadian-equality (http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/full-comment/blog.html?b=fullcomment.nationalpost.com%2F2013%2F01%2F23%2Fanthony-sowan-why-idle-no-more-holds-back-the-dream-of-canadian-equality)
If you ask me the worst part of the idle no more movement is the participation of spence. This just after her and the tribal government she runs is proven to have failed money matters miserably. And they back her as a leader of idle no more! Just plain confusing. Idol no more should be protesting against spence!!!! I agree with the fella that wrote the above in that the movement is doomed to fail which would suit spence and other corrupt band leadership just fine.
Great article
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http://elysebruce.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/idle-no-more-about-that-fn-trust/
reality check here!
So when chief gets the cash it is all tickity boo? I doubt it. No more than white chief gets a hold of cash. Just a matter of using the money in a good way. Educate people to make the right choices. Or if you want to go tribal on it you only alienate everyone else. Where all people you know.
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Actually I think you missed the history lessons. Or at least you are interpreting them as you see it.
You are talking about some "business" like deals or something like we are leasing their land.
Treaties were setup for many reasons and leasing the land from the FNs wasn't one of them.
They were setup to preserve FNs culture, to have an ally against US that always had tendencies to "drop in".
Treates were setup so that FN we not eliminated which happened in the US and so on.
Last I remember FNs were losing out the land to the "guns" anyway.
Indians knew that Europeans were going to settle in the land whether treaties existed or not so they did one smart thing they could.
They agreed to treaties that would preserve some land for them. And when you look at it, they have an excellent deal.
And yes the moneys given to them are "handouts". Basically a welfare system that is keeping them just above water. Barely.
If they knew better they would not take that money and would learn to become self sufficient.
If you go to the Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada History of Treaty Making, you can read about the treaty process that evolved in Canada. You can also read some of the historic treaties which are very interesting. Pay particular attention to the "Numbered Treaties" that cover the greatest part of Canada's landmass and encompass the Attawapiskat in particular. Certainly the British wanted Treaties to keep the Americans out but that wasn't an Indian aim. Education, health care and Treaty annuities are not handouts; they were negotiated in good faith.
http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1314977704533/1314977734895 (http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1314977704533/1314977734895)
To quote them:
First Nation groups were not opposed to a treaty process, and in many cases, pressured Canada to undertake treaties in areas when it was not prepared to do so. Aboriginal signatories had their own reasons to enter into treaties with the Crown. On the whole, they were looking to the Crown to come to their assistance in a time of great change and upheaval in their lives. With epidemics and famine striking their people, Aboriginal leaders wanted the government to help care for their distressed people and assist them in adapting to their changing economic reality as the buffalo herds neared extinction and the HBC shifted its operations to the North.
With these reasons in mind, Canada negotiated treaties with the Aboriginal peoples of the Prairies. Based upon the 1850 Robinson Treaties, treaties surrendered large tracts of land by large numbers of bands assembled together for the negotiations. These treaties were more than simple land surrenders as they included to onetime lump sum payments, annuities, specific amounts of reserve lands, continued rights to hunt and fish on unoccupied Crown lands, schools, agricultural implements and cattle, ammunition, as well as medals, flags and suites of clothing. Between 1871 and 1921, the Crown signed 11 treaties, known as the Numbered Treaties, divided into two groups: those for settlement in the South; and those for access to natural resources in the North.
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Sandman, to talk about "sovereign peoples", "use of the land" is to truly not understand the politics of the day.
Actually that is the language of the politics of the day as it is the language of the Treaties themselves. A "Treaty" is a document signed by two sovereign peoples. The "Indians" in signing the treaty were accepting the Queen's sovereignty and agreeing to "cede, release, surrender and yield up to Her Majesty the Queen and successors forever all the lands included within the [limits of the treaty]." In exchange for this they received the lump sum payment, annuities, the commitment of the Crown to provide education and health care to the FN people, and "Her Majesty the Queen hereby agrees and undertakes to lay aside and reserve for the sole and exclusive use of the Indians the following tracts of land, that is to say: For the use of the Indians . . . "
Look a the Osoyoos band. They didn't take government handouts and made themselves prosperous thanks to, in large part, a few good men.
They also never signed any Treaties nor surrendered their rights to the lands of Osoyoos either.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/hon-carolyn-bennett/attawapiskat-court-ruling_b_1732146.html
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Aboriginals have no claim to sovereignty
By Barry Cooper, Postmedia NewsJanuary 26, 2013
The behaviour of Indian leaders and the gestures of the Idle No More movement are expressions of the same pathologies found on so many reserves in Canada. Political pathology is more than the well-known corruption of so-called chiefs. Almost the entire discussion between Indians and the government is based on complaints, assumptions and assertions that have no basis in reality. They are projections of the imagination. Participants in the discussions, however, take them to be the self-evident structure of the common sense world.
Such self-delusion is more than ideology, because it combines the lowest emotions - guilt, fear and resentment - with the most exalted aspirations to rectify injustice and fulfil the wishes of God, the Creator. To put this problem into perspective, recall a classic study published in 2000 by my longtime colleague and even longer-time friend, Tom Flanagan, called First Nations? Second Thoughts.
The fantasy devoutly believed in by many aboriginals, bureaucrats and lawyers, both on the bench and at the bar, as well as by numerous academics, journalists and intellectuals, goes as follows: (1) Aboriginals are privileged because they were here first; (2) there are no significant differences between European and Indian civilizations so that (3) Indians are sovereign nations; accordingly (4) treaties were nation-to-nation agreements that (5) affirmed aboriginal sovereignty and ownership of the land. And finally, when Canadians acknowledge all the above, Indians will prosper.
In reality, every human in the New World came here, or their forebears came here, from the Old World. If ancestral priority works for Indians, why not for non-Indians? In any case, Indians and Inuit shoved each other around; some tribes defined themselves by war-making. By aboriginal logic, Europeans and later Asian immigrants were new tribes pushing their way into the country as their predecessors had done. Nothing new here.
Second, European and Indian civilizations were not equal. That is why Europeans came to the New World, not the other way around. This is because of their technological, military and political advantages that the Europeans developed, including the legal concepts of sovereignty and the state. Machiavelli was the first to apply the term state to politics; sovereignty is a 16thcentury term developed after the wars of religion to describe the new post-medieval regime. The two go together: no sovereignty without states, no states without sovereignty.
Neither tribes nor empires are states. Every new European state claimed the right to establish sovereignty over non-European land by discovery and exploration. They could do so precisely because no sovereign state ruled the territory. Today, Canada, like the U.S., is a sovereign state. Aboriginal claims to the contrary are rhetorical utterances with no force or effect in international law.
Fourth, nation is also a European concept later combined with the legal notion of state. Until 1982, this was understood by Indians and their lawyers. That year, the National Indian Brotherhood renamed itself the Assembly of First Nations, which contains the racist connotation of original aboriginality noted above. In reality, nothing has changed by renaming Indian tribes (however defined) as First Nations.
The mischief and confusion introduced by the new language has inspired aboriginals to assert a special relationship embodied in "treaties."
If you bother to read the documents, it is as clear as can be that they extinguish rather than affirm any loose notion of the sovereignty of so-called First Nations.
The earliest "treaties" contained the articles of submission by the tribes to the Crown; later ones were real estate conveyances paid for by annuities. It took the imagination of lawyers to turn them into the embodiment of sovereign rights when the plain language says the opposite.
Finally, the consequences. The perverse incentives that promise future Indian dependency cannot be fixed by bureaucrats. Economic prosperity and self-respect can come only from property rights and holding jobs. All the other malarkey, to which we have been amply treated in recent weeks, will preserve the management of misery.
Barry Cooper is a professor of political science at the University of Calgary.
© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun
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http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/hon-carolyn-bennett/attawapiskat-court-ruling_b_1732146.html
hotrod, this is a liberal MP. It's hard to know if there is any truth to that or if it's just politicking.
I have a tendency to throw everything in liberal media to the wolves.
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Barry is supporting a Euro-centric view of the world which allowed "sovereign nations" to colonize "tribes" and subject them to their will.
Neither tribes nor empires are states. Every new European state claimed the right to establish sovereignty over non-European land by discovery and exploration. They could do so precisely because no sovereign state ruled the territory. Today, Canada, like the U.S., is a sovereign state. Aboriginal claims to the contrary are rhetorical utterances with no force or effect in international law.
Since it was the European colonizers that labelled these people "tribes" (prescisely to give themselves the right to colonize them) to now claim that they do not deserve to be treated as sovereign peoples because of this label is pathetic in the extreme, as is the claim that European technological superiority justified colonization. This is a perverse "might is right" argument.
Fourth, nation is also a European concept later combined with the legal notion of state. Until 1982, this was understood by Indians and their lawyers. That year, the National Indian Brotherhood renamed itself the Assembly of First Nations, which contains the racist connotation of original aboriginality noted above. In reality, nothing has changed by renaming Indian tribes (however defined) as First Nations.
What changed was that the FN Brotherhood created the label, not the European colonizers, (clearly the European Colonizers would not want the Brotherhood to be able to label themselves. Again, just because you labelled a people a "tribe" doesn't automatically make them one, even if "your" law would hold otherwise.
If you bother to read the documents, it is as clear as can be that they extinguish rather than affirm any loose notion of the sovereignty of so-called First Nations.
How exactly can you "extinguish" something without first "affirming" that it exists?
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Barry is supporting a Euro-centric view of the world which allowed "sovereign nations" to colonize "tribes" and subject them to their will.
Since it was the European colonizers that labelled these people "tribes" (prescisely to give themselves the right to colonize them) to now claim that they do not deserve to be treated as sovereign peoples because of this label is pathetic in the extreme, as is the claim that European technological superiority justified colonization. This is a perverse "might is right" argument.
What changed was that the FN Brotherhood created the label, not the European colonizers, (clearly the European Colonizers would not want the Brotherhood to be able to label themselves. Again, just because you labelled a people a "tribe" doesn't automatically make them one, even if "your" law would hold otherwise.
How exactly can you "extinguish" something without first "affirming" that it exists?
Sandman, European colonizers would have colonized people in North America regardless of what they called themselves.
They were technologically inferior and would have been wiped out if it weren't for the treaties.
I think there is a notion among some people that they can send Europeans on a guilt trip for something their ancestors did long ago.
They are sorely mistaken.
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Sandman, European colonizers would have colonized people in North America regardless of what they called themselves.
They were technologically inferior and would have been wiped out if it weren't for the treaties.
I think there is a notion among some people that they can send Europeans on a guilt trip for something their ancestors did long ago.
They are sorely mistaken.
The natives have been using the guilt trip routine since their beginning's, why stop now. So tired of the throwing away and the wasting of the millions that we send their way only to have them come back and continually whine and cry for More. Get rid of the Indian Act, Canada is shared, enjoyed and lived in by many nationalities and we are all Canadian's. Time for the natives to join the family because doing it their way hasn't worked and it sure as hell doesn't look like it will any time soon. Become self sufficient, give back to society, start working and earn respect for yourself and your people. You can still have your heritage. Many nationalities living here still respect and adhere to their's, why can't you. Or is being lazy and fed by the gov't. of the land really the way you want to go. Probably, ehhh.
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I think there is a notion among some people that they can send Europeans on a guilt trip for something their ancestors did long ago.
They are sorely mistaken.
The current protest over the Conservative's Omnibus bill is a "guilt trip" over something our current government is doing, and has been doing for a few years now, not something our ancestor's did "long ago". People today (and that includes some politicians) want to tear up those agreements made long ago, or alter their terms, etc, precisely because they feel no guilt over what was done to the First Nations living here. Those First Nations, whose agreements are being criticized, altered, and torn up, are saying they will remain idle no more while this is done. Those agreements should not be unilaterally altered, any more than the British Government should be able to unilaterally change the BNA Act that brought Canada into existence, not the Statute of Westminster that granted us our independence, nor the Constitution Act that give us the power over our own Constitution, however much they may hold the power to do so. Such alternations should only be made at the discretion of both parties. While there may be corruption among the Chiefs in leadership, that is no reason to claim the people deserve to have their funds withheld. That is like saying we should have a tax revolt every time it is revealed one of our politicians is found to be corrupt or one of our governments wasteful of our tax dollars. From the comments of some the people posting above, it sounds like the chiefs are the only politicians to ever be suspected of corruption.
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From the comments of some the people posting above, it sounds like the chiefs are the only politicians to ever be suspected of corruption.
The big difference is that the Canadian politicians are held to account. The FN Chiefs are not being held to account and instead of vilifying the FN politicians, the media and opposition parties point fingers at the Canadian government. In the end it's the FN people that are suffering, but it's their own leaders that are responsible.
This can't be fixed by giving the FN leaders what they are asking for. They have demonstrated that they are corrupt and like any Canadian politician they need to be removed from their responsibility. Unfortunately their system of government will continue to promote these sort of leaders. Of course there are exceptions.
Integrating the FN people into Canadian society is the only solution.
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The natives have been using the guilt trip routine since their beginning's, why stop now. So tired of the throwing away and the wasting of the millions that we send their way only to have them come back and continually whine and cry for More. Get rid of the Indian Act, Canada is shared, enjoyed and lived in by many nationalities and we are all Canadian's. Time for the natives to join the family because doing it their way hasn't worked and it sure as hell doesn't look like it will any time soon. Become self sufficient, give back to society, start working and earn respect for yourself and your people. You can still have your heritage. Many nationalities living here still respect and adhere to their's, why can't you. Or is being lazy and fed by the gov't. of the land really the way you want to go. Probably, ehhh.
These are precisely the comments I am referring to. Broad sweeping generalizations are the hallmarks of racism. Become self sufficient, give back to society, start working and earn respect for yourself and your people.
Many First Nations people already "work" and "give back to society" and have earned the "respect" of themselves, their people and the Canadian communities they live within. I get to work with some of them every day.
Many nationalities living here still respect and adhere to their's, why can't you.
The short answer is that those "nationalities" chose to come to Canada and join Canadian society, the FN people did not. The FN do not just wish to preserve their cultural identity, they want to preserve their Culture itself. The other "nationalities" that come here know that somewhere in the world their Culture is safe, their languages spoken, their traditions practiced by millions of other people of their "nationality." The FN people do not have that assurance that their culture will be preserved if they accept assimilation as you would have it. While you may disagree with their desire to maintain their right to self-determinism, you cannot deny them it.
Or is being lazy and fed by the gov't. of the land really the way you want to go. Probably, ehhh.
Such wholesale racism is not worthy a response.
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Athezone, very well put.
Sandman,
Somehow FNs have failed to mention any details of the reasons they are protesting and I, like most people don't buy what they're selling.
If they are protesting something relating to what our current government is doing they should protest it in the name of all Canadians, not in the name of First Nations.
Because it concerns all of us.
If they want the attention of all of their fellow citizens of this country they should speak and protest on behalf of all Canadians.
What was done to the First Nations long ago and whether it was right or wrong is of no consequence today.
We are all in this s..t together.
Conservative omnibus bill is a response after decades of Liberal rubbish. Unfortunately they are rushing so many pieces of legislation that nobody seems to understand what's going on.
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I think throwing out the racism card is a cop out. It's often used to shut down a conversation and silence logical arguments.
These are good discussion with good information. I'm not detecting any racism here. I suggest that word not be used.
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The big difference is that the Canadian politicians are held to account. The FN Chiefs are not being held to account and instead of vilifying the FN politicians, the media and opposition parties point fingers at the Canadian government. In the end it's the FN people that are suffering, but it's their own leaders that are responsible.
The same could be said for the Federal Government itself.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/01/05/first-nations-audits-infrastructure.html
This can't be fixed by giving the FN leaders what they are asking for. They have demonstrated that they are corrupt and like any Canadian politician they need to be removed from their responsibility.
The Idle No More movement is a grassroots movement and is not tied to any "chiefs" (attempts to associate Spence with the the grassroots movement is a clever strategy, given she is currently being criticized for mismanaging funds). The "leaders" of Idle No More are trying "to ensure that the environment is protected and our inherent right to Indigenous sovereignty is recognized" and this CAN be accomplished by giving them what they want: "a repeal all legislation which violates Treaties, Aboriginal inherent rights and title, and subsequently environmental protections of land and water."
Unfortunately their system of government will continue to promote these sort of leaders.
No more so than ours does.
Integrating the FN people into Canadian society is the only solution.
Trudeau tried, they do not want that.
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Athezone, very well put.
Sandman,
Somehow FNs have failed to mention any details of the reasons they are protesting and I, like most people don't buy what they're selling.
If they are protesting something relating to what our current government is doing they should protest it in the name of all Canadians, not in the name of First Nations.
Because it concerns all of us.
If they want the attention of all of their fellow citizens of this country they should speak and protest on behalf of all Canadians.
What was done to the First Nations long ago and whether it was right or wrong is of no consequence today.
We are all in this s..t together.
Conservative omnibus bill is a response after decades of Liberal rubbish. Unfortunately they are rushing so many pieces of legislation that nobody seems to understand what's going on.
The details are there if you want to look. Just look at their web site. www.idlenomore.ca
The Omnibus bill includes all kids of changes to regulations that are so contrary to what Canadians value (remember that 6 out of 10 Canadians voted against Harper's Conservatives).
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The same could be said for the Federal Government itself.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/01/05/first-nations-audits-infrastructure.html
The Idle No More movement is a grassroots movement and is not tied to any "chiefs" (attempts to associate Spence with the the grassroots movement is a clever strategy, given she is currently being criticized for mismanaging funds). The "leaders" of Idle No More are trying "to ensure that the environment is protected and our inherent right to Indigenous sovereignty is recognized" and this CAN be accomplished by giving them what they want: "a repeal all legislation which violates Treaties, Aboriginal inherent rights and title, and subsequently environmental protections of land and water."
No more so than ours does.
Trudeau tried, they do not want that.
All the arguments you've presented suggest that we should do more of the same, which logic suggests will create more of the same problems. Doesn't seem like much of a solution.
At least the suggestions for change offer some hope of fixing the situation which seems a logical objective.....
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All the arguments you've presented suggest that we should do more of the same, which logic suggests will create more of the same problems. Doesn't seem like much of a solution.
At least the suggestions for change offer some hope of fixing the situation which seems a logical objective.....
Not at all. I am suggesting that the future will be determined by the FN, not us. Arguments for assimilation have been around for over a century as a solution to the "Indian problem". That has been rejected by FN every time. They will need to come to the terms of their development on their own. It is their right to self-determination that I support, I am actually quite excited by the propect of a grassroots movement in the FN communities. I only hope the "leadership" (theirs and ours) doesn't scuttle it.
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The Omnibus bill includes all kids of changes to regulations that are so contrary to what Canadians value (remember that 6 out of 10 Canadians voted against Harper's Conservatives).
Just heard a CBC poll which suggests you may be wrong..... about the regulations being contrary to what Canadians value. I appreciate you may feel that way as do most of the opposition parties, however there seems to be a majority of Canadians that support the bill.
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Not at all. I am suggesting that the future will be determined by the FN, not us. Arguments for assimilation have been around for over a century as a solution to the "Indian problem". That has been rejected by FN every time. They will need to come to the terms of their development on their own. It is their right to self-determination that I support, I am actually quite excited by the propect of a grassroots movement in the FN communities. I only hope the "leadership" (theirs and ours) doesn't scuttle it.
Nice idea, however when you have a population of FN that accept living in sub poverty conditions, while their leaders live in nice houses and drive cadillacs, the resulting "self-determination" will never be in the best interests of the majority of the FN's. That's why it won't work.
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Nice idea, however when you have a population of FN that accept living in sub poverty conditions, while their leaders live in nice houses and drive cadillacs, the resulting "self-determination" will never be in the best interests of the majority of the FN's. That's why it won't work.
Well said AF, and I would also like to say to Sandman that I have many first nation friend's as well. In fact my 3 best childhood friends are all natives and we shared our lives together fishing and laughing in the early years and are still great friends today. The truth always hurts I know but if the Indian people ever hope to conquer their enemies they must start from within first.
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The truth always hurts I know but if the Indian people ever hope to conquer their enemies they must start from within first.
Precisely. Talk of cultural assimilation is not the answer.
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Just heard a CBC poll which suggests you may be wrong..... about the regulations being contrary to what Canadians value. I appreciate you may feel that way as do most of the opposition parties, however there seems to be a majority of Canadians that support the bill.
Do you have a link to those poll results? As I said, there are many things in the bill that Canadians would support, it is the lumping in of the other (like the changes to environmental protection and reviews for lakes and rivers), that the Idle No More, and many other Canadians protest (in addition to the changes to the Indian Act without consultation with FN).
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Do you have a link to those poll results?
It was on the late news last night.
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Sandman,
You talk of "grassroots" movement. I think it's more "grass" than "roots".
Yes Trudeau tried to integrate them into society and they didn't want it.
That's why the situation they are in is of their own making.
I sure don't want my money going to support someone who doesn't want to live in my society.
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The truth always hurts I know but if the Indian people ever hope to conquer their enemies they must start from within first.
Hail Caesar!