Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: Rodney on July 23, 2012, 07:10:44 PM
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If you plan to fish the Chilliwack/Vedder River system in the next week or so, please be aware that Fisheries and Oceans Canada has provided a First Nations fishery opening for Chilliwack Lake sockeye salmon. A dip net fishery will take place from Vedder Crossing Bridge to the outlet of the Chilliwack Lake. This fishery will start tomorrow and will go for 6 days during daylight hours only. A beach seine will take place below the train crossing bridge at Yarrow to the confluence into the Fraser River Mainstem. This fishery will be for two days starting tomorrow where most of the action should take place in the Vedder Canal. The current target is 15,000 fish.
This information comes from direct communication from DFO resource managers and the local SFAC group. I can't find the fishery notice for it yet but thought others should be aware of this so you can make alternative fishing plans and not be surprised by the netting activities when showing up at the river this week.
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Oh well, so much for trying to fish the river this week for any fresh push of fish.
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Nice to see this group hard at work again, more Displaced Fish from the Ocean. Wonder where these will end up? very encouraging:(
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A dip net fishery will take place from Vedder Crossing Bridge to the outlet of the Chilliwack Lake.
What do you mean by dip net fishery ??
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This fishery will start tomorrow and will go for 6 days during daylight hours only.
Dip net ? check !
Beach seine ? check !
Waders ? check !
Ice in the totes ? check !
"Hey Bro" !!........ Ya ?? ........ don't forget the For Sale sign !!
oh ya, CHEQUE !!!!!!!! 8)
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Thanks for the information Rodney. I'm going to go right ahead and keep the negative comments to myself on this one ;D
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Does anybody know if there was a native gillnet fishery on the Vedder already, rumor has it that there was some gillnetting being done by Lickman road on the 16th.
True ?? False ?? Anybody know ??
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the soowahlie creek band has been set netting on the reserve all year....
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so why is it the dfo closes the retention of chum salmon the last 2 years. Was it not only to help with the success of the run, but also to enhance the nutrient levels of the river. Doesn't seem right to me to allow this if there is a problem with maintaining proper levels of nutrients to sustain future generations of fish of any species.
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Wonder if this will continue? How long after the netting does it take for the fish to move back into the river? A week? Next day?
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the soowahlie creek band has been set netting on the reserve all year....
Hmmm, never new this, DFO regulated I would imagine then eh ??
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the soowahlie creek band has been set netting on the reserve all year....
Where abouts? Would that mean that they were targeting fish heading back into Cultus lake rather than Chilliwack lake?
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definate nedative effect on the already endangered cultus lake sockeye run, why not an opening from slesse creek to chilliwack lake, which would have no effect on anyone and not hinder the sporties, another shining example of mismanagement bi dfo
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:'( :-* :-\ :-X :-[ :P
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definate nedative effect on the already endangered cultus lake sockeye run,
Cultus Lake sockeye are a fall run and won't be in the river for a couple of months
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Cultus Lake sockeye are a fall run and won't be in the river for a couple of months
In general, that is correct but I have caught Caltus Sockeye in Vedder as early as the 1st week of August. My concern is how they want to make sure that the FN nets will not pull out the red springs in masses? Or is it going to be another allowable by-catch for the 'ceremonial and eatery purposes'??
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no they aren't netting in the creek itself, they are set netting the slack eddies on the main stem vedder on reserve land. they used an excavator to block off the road at the pond so no one can go up there with a vehicle and see what there doing. Cultus fish probably wont be coming in until the end of august I would imagine
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The Carp- at the meetings I attended I asked the same question. FN had tradionally fished the Chilliwack system, it's been almost 25 years since the last time. The Vedder/Chilliwack system crosses over between native bands so each band has their own traditional fishing territory. You cant tell one band to fish another bands territory so unfortunately it is not that simple. Each band wants to fish their own traditional fishing territory and crossing over into others would only cause conflict between bands.
The good news is that there is lots of sockeye in the river and it won't take long to reach their quota of 15k,I don't think they will be fishing the most popular sportfishing locations either so there should not be too much conflict between user groups. If anyone does experience a conflict or abuse by FN please call me as I am the representative for recreational conflicts with FN. I can be reached at 604-671-3474 anytime.
The FN/Sporfishing working group has been working hard on this and we are hopeful that recreational anglers will respect FN rights to retain surplus fish in a time when sockeye numbers in other river sytems are very low. The reason for this fishery is to access surplus fish as this year there will be very limited fishing on the Fraser. 11 bands have applied to access surplus Chilliwack lake fish, they will be releasing all Cultus lake sockeye as most of them are marked.
If you have any questions or concerns you can e-mail me directly at sts@guidebc.com
Vic Carrao
STS Guiding
604-671-3474
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Regardless of how you look at this situation, this is a pretty brutal precedent to start. This is a foot in the door for the Natives fishing the Chilliwack/Vedder. It won't be long before they are asking to fish the fall species entering the river too. NOT GOOD!
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I hear what your saying and hope your wrong Buck, by the way just got back from another meeting and the last fishery for FN on the Vedder/Chilliwack was 1959.
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. This is a foot in the door for the Natives fishing the Chilliwack/Vedder. It won't be long before they are asking to fish the fall species entering the river too. NOT GOOD!
x2
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In general, that is correct but I have caught Caltus Sockeye in Vedder as early as the 1st week of August...
Good call, I always forget to look at the sticker on the bottom
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Have to say I find it a little disturbing how there is so little fellowship amongst the bands. Sounds like everyone for themselves, take what you will. If some people need the fish this bad, why is there no sharing of this surplus bounty. There is an old saying, treat people like children and they will act like children. When will our government officials learn.
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Who is going to be counting the fish they catch? I have a hard time believing that they will just say ok, thats our 15k fish, lets stop now. I was hoping that they may catch their limit before the weekend but I think that regardless of their limit, this will go all 6 days that its opened for.
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Observed gill net strung out on river bar today. Informed DFO. Will see if it's back again tomorrow.
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i was planning to go flyfish for trout this week at the vedder. does this mean that the bull, dolly, and rainbows will be effected aswell? is it likely that the trout will also get caught up in the nets and be hindered from going further upstream?
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Does anybody know how they set up the drift net at the vedder, is it across the river from bank to bank ?
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i was planning to go flyfish for trout this week at the vedder. does this mean that the bull, dolly, and rainbows will be effected aswell? is it likely that the trout will also get caught up in the nets and be hindered from going further upstream?
the fish that you mentioned are likely too small to be caught in the nets...Unless they are doing a beach seine then yes, maybe a bit
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The Carp- at the meetings I attended I asked the same question. FN had tradionally fished the Chilliwack system, it's been almost 25 years since the last time. The Vedder/Chilliwack system crosses over between native bands so each band has their own traditional fishing territory. You cant tell one band to fish another bands territory so unfortunately it is not that simple. Each band wants to fish their own traditional fishing territory and crossing over into others would only cause conflict between bands.
The good news is that there is lots of sockeye in the river and it won't take long to reach their quota of 15k,I don't think they will be fishing the most popular sportfishing locations either so there should not be too much conflict between user groups. If anyone does experience a conflict or abuse by FN please call me as I am the representative for recreational conflicts with FN. I can be reached at 604-671-3474 anytime.
The FN/Sporfishing working group has been working hard on this and we are hopeful that recreational anglers will respect FN rights to retain surplus fish in a time when sockeye numbers in other river sytems are very low. The reason for this fishery is to access surplus fish as this year there will be very limited fishing on the Fraser. 11 bands have applied to access surplus Chilliwack lake fish, they will be releasing all Cultus lake sockeye as most of them are marked.
If you have any questions or concerns you can e-mail me directly at sts@guidebc.com
Vic Carrao
STS Guiding
604-671-3474
Thank you for the insightful response, Vic. A breath of fresh air amidst a tension-filled discussion.
Tex
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I'd add should tentions rise , calling Vic is fair enough but also call the police, it's their job to deescalate tention
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Just wondering if anyone has observed this fishery in action .... are they actually catching fish?
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Yes absolutely, if the act is criminal in nature please call RCMP as we do not deal with criminal acts. If the confrontation is not criminal and more verbal or just disrespectful, please call me so that we can deal with the party involved. FN are committed to this as much as we are so it is important that the bad apples are dealt with.
FYI, FN groups have been trying to find beach siene locations and the river is just too high, some groups have been dip netting above Vedder Crossing with very poor results due to clear water. Sounds like they are not going to be too successful at this fishery.
Vic
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Ya be ignorant my young salt. Aye, Them native bands been fishin' the river for over 10'000 years. It be a way of life and a codified right, if ya done read the constitution. Don't be so ignorant boy-o, you be only adding fuel to the fire.
X2
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salmon pirate, i understand that they claim rights to fish no argurment there.
My sole arguement comes from The abundance of FN SELLING THEIR FOODSTUFF catches.
I have had knocks on the door every week since sockeye has opened.
Do i have to start doing Probono work for DFO and film and photo the liscense plates? and risk my neck?
How do Non FN persons go about reporting or otherwise help stop the Selling of Foodstuff fishing catches?
I QUOTE from the man and woman driving the truck that i have a PICTURE OF.
" How do you think we pay for our trucks boats and nets" ......
What is the best course of action to deal with this person? who should i be contacting.
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Brian, i was wondering the exact same thing. Who do you call to report them selling their so called, " cermonial catch for $10 a fish " and why doesnt the media or community get on top of it?
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What is the best course of action to deal with this person? who should i be contacting.
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/points/ORR-ONS-eng.htm
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thanks rod. i have submitted the information.
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thanks rod. i have submitted the information.
Been going on forever, the officers I am sure are instructed from above not to touch the issue. Ever heard of a anyone being fined for this?
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Been going on forever, the officers I am sure are instructed from above not to touch the issue. Ever heard of a anyone being fined for this?
Well said, Chris. 100% true...
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Been going on forever, the officers I am sure are instructed from above not to touch the issue. Ever heard of a anyone being fined for this?
I agree. This has been going on for years. The only charges I've heard are to restaurants who buy the salmon. Seldom if ever you hear of Indians been charged for selling
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The FN also have commercial openings to sell fish, are you sure those fish for sale weren't from a sale fishery?
They used to barter for goods back in the day, why not now? ???
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Who is going to be counting the fish they catch? I have a hard time believing that they will just say ok, thats our 15k fish, lets stop now.
I share the same concern. Just who are counting these fish besides the harvesters themselves? Anybody? these harvests imo need to be fully monitered to be even considered. anything less is clearly poor management.
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I share the same concern. Just who are counting these fish besides the harvesters themselves? Anybody? these harvests imo need to be fully monitered to be even considered. anything less is clearly poor management.
Who's counting the sporties catch on the Fraser, Harrison or Vedder? I fish more than most and have been checked 3 times in my life (2 on the Squamish for some odd reason).
Just like all fisheries some will abuse quota's, but most will abide by the rules.
What everyone is losing perspective on here is how good we really have it on the Vedder and other local rivers. If FN really were intent on beating on the runs they would, there is little stopping them. The Chehalis band could easily stretch nets across the river and pluck half the coho and steelhead each year. The Vedder band behind On the Way could do the same.
Read some of the US boards and the issues with tribes taking fish whenever, however, and you will understand we have it very good. A few thousand sockeye on the Vedder, in a good year, is no big deal IMO.
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Brian, i was wondering the exact same thing. Who do you call to report them selling their so called, " cermonial catch for $10 a fish " and why doesnt the media or community get on top of it?
The FN also have commercial openings to sell fish, are you sure those fish for sale weren't from a sale fishery?
They used to barter for goods back in the day, why not now? ???
Sorry thats sort of how my first post was supposed look ;D
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I agree. This has been going on for years. The only charges I've heard are to restaurants who buy the salmon. Seldom if ever you hear of Indians been charged for selling
Cheam band members have been charged, convicted and fined - and the fines were substantial. Part of the issue is that courts have found (in the Maritimes) 1st nations can sell hat they catch via their charter rights fisheries for a reasonable income. Challenging door to door sales could open this can of worms here. The Feds have chosen not to unless there is consistent observation of sales beyond " a reasonable income".
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Below I have posted the times and dates for the fishery we are talking about, maybe best to just avoid the river for a few days.
Dave, Vic,
I spoke with DFO and confirmed the FN fishery on the Vedder/Chilliwack River. Below I have add the areas and times:
BEACH SEINES:
Species: SOCKEYE SALMON (Oncorhynchus nerka)
Allowable Fishing Times: Start Date: 24-Jul-2012
End Date: 25-Jul-2012
Times: 08:00 - 17:00 daily
Details: Fishing is authorized by this licence during the following times:
Beach
Seines: 08:00hrs to 17:00hrs Daily Tuesday July 24, and Wednesday
July 25, 2012.
Area
Those waters of the Chilliwack River located downstream of the CN Rail Train Bridge
at Yarrow to the confluence of the Fraser River Mainstem .
DIP NETS:
Species: SOCKEYE SALMON (Oncorhynchus nerka)
Allowable Fishing Times: Start Date: 24-Jul-2012
End Date: 29-Jul-2012
Times: 07:00 - 19:00 daily
Details: Fishing is authorized by this licence during the following times:
Dip nets:
07:00hrs to 19:00hrs Daily from Tuesday July 24, until Sunday July 29,
2012.
Gear: Net, Dip
Additional Descriptions: Gear and Gear Identification: The following gear is
permitted: Dip Nets
Area
Those waters of the Chilliwack River located between the out let of Chilliwack Lake
downstream to the Vedder Crossing Bridge.
I have advised our Seasonal Policing members to make patrols of the area to provide a police presence. DFO will also be out making patrols. If you wish to advise your members of this fishery, that would go a long way to defuse any tensions.
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hey cartman, they never had seine nets 10000 yrs ago. And just because its a "codified right" in the constitution does not mean that it is relevant today. Look at the americans "right to bear arms", sure 236 years ago that was a good idea too but look at what thats done to their country now, IMO
You sure are right, but they did build fish fences to block off the whole river and pick out the fish they wanted. How hard to you think it would be to build a fence in the canal and pick through all the fish coming up river? 20 guys and a bunch of cedars could plug up the canal in a weekend.
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You guys are blowing this out of the water a bit (no pun intended). Bottom line is the opening is happening whether we like it or not. I'm thankful for knowing this in advance so I can avoid any disappointment. I am not a resident of the chilliwack area so did not know about this door to door sales thing going on, but the best tool we have is to simply tell others not to buy from them (and obviously not buy from them ourselves). As others have said, the fisheries compliance officers are too busy to pursue charges that will get thrown out before they hit court anyways, and conservation is busy this time of year with bear calls... While calling the hotline and filling out the online forms isn't a bad thing, I think the most effective tool we have is to promote boycotting the unlawful sale of fish to others we know.
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How hard to you think it would be to build a fence in the canal and pick through all the fish coming up river?
Virtually impossible; if it was doable it would have been done for management purposes years ago.
So, how many fish have been harvested? Anyone even seen a sockeye taken by FN?
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I saw them killing sockeye on the reserve over a week ago with set nets, didnt get a count but they had totes and bins with fish in them.
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I spoke with DFO and confirmed the FN fishery on the Vedder/Chilliwack River.
Is there a DFO Notice# for this fishery? I'm sorry bu I'm having a hard time believing that such a controversial opening can happen without any DFO notice. It is really 'fishy' :'(
Or maybe it is becoming the new normal that when it comes to the FN fishery, DFO can completely bypass all the regulatory needs and laws?? ??? And please don't get me wrong, I am not adding fuel to the flame here. I am just asking a simple question: Is there a DFO Notice# for this fishery?
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The Vedder/Chilliwack River sockeye were wiped out by overnetting and consequently closed in the late 1950's. The taxpayers of Canada have been funding the Seltzer Creek hatchery and the adjoining FN to bring back the sockeye. Now the netting starts again. Hopefully DFO has learned from their mistake and will closely monitor this fishery. Otherwise we will be caught in a vicious circle, benefiting only one group of people at the expense of the other.
The bright side? This may mean a sockey retention for the rest of us, with one single line and a barbless hook. Is this getting what you paid for? :o
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Virtually impossible; if it was doable it would have been done for management purposes years ago.
I've hiked the whole Canal and there are lots of spots where you could block off the river and funnel fish. A weir is simply a fence. Are you saying that it would be impossible to build a 50 foot fence?
(http://bcheritage.ca/pacificfisheries/techno/img_tech/pn1748a.jpg)
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The Vedder/Chilliwack River sockeye were wiped out by overnetting and consequently closed in the late 1950's. The taxpayers of Canada have been funding the Seltzer Creek hatchery and the adjoining FN to bring back the sockeye. Now the netting starts again. Hopefully DFO has learned from their mistake and will closely monitor this fishery. Otherwise we will be caught in a vicious circle, benefiting only one group of people at the expense of the other.
The bright side? This may mean a sockey retention for the rest of us, with one single line and a barbless hook. Is this getting what you paid for? :o
Who exactly netted this run into closure? It wasn't the commercial boats in the Lower Fraser was it?
And if the bright side is a sport opening, god help us all.
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Dave, from what I'm hearing ( Wally Hall )they have not been successful seining in the lower river due to water levels. Dip netting has also been a bust. Some gill netting taking place on the reserve. Not sure how many fish have been taken but I"m sure we can get those figures from the on- site monitors.
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I've hiked the whole Canal and there are lots of spots where you could block off the river and funnel fish. A weir is simply a fence. Are you saying that it would be impossible to build a 50 foot fence?
(http://bcheritage.ca/pacificfisheries/techno/img_tech/pn1748a.jpg)
Of course a 50' fence could be installed in the canal at low water levels. But for it to be of any value it should be able to count fish at all levels throughout the year, including freshet. Can't see any government agency about to fund that.
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Dave, from what I'm hearing ( Wally Hall )they have not been successful seining in the lower river due to water levels. Dip netting has also been a bust. Some gill netting taking place on the reserve. Not sure how many fish have been taken but I"m sure we can get those figures from the on- site monitors.
Thanks Buck, guess we expected that. I'm told the DIDSON (electronic fish counter) is now up and running at the outlet. Hope they have the cash to do a few flights as well.
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Is there a chance that they extend this fishery beyond this week?
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Is there a chance that they extend this fishery beyond this week?
My "guess" is without a doubt they can and will, 15K fish is 15K fish, I can't see them taking any less, once their on the system fishing I doubt that they would just up and quit for the sake of water levels etc etc, and I'm pretty sure DFO won't tell them they have to stop, I would imagine that would bring on quite the uproar.
I have yet to here if they are allowed to retain the Chinnook as by-catch, anyone fell like elaborating on this ? {that's if you know for sure, not just guessing}, thanks.
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All species other than sockeye salmon are required to be released. Due to the selective nature of this fishery, seine and dip nets are used.
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All species other than sockeye salmon are required to be released. Due to the selective nature of this fishery, seine and dip nets are used.
Thank you sir ;)
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Dave, that's good news for a change. Sockeye and spring numbers are on the decline in the lower river and appear to have peaked last week. KP mentioned most of the fish are in Chilliwack lake by the 15th of August.
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Man I hope they don't open sockeye to sport fishermen on the Vedder. That would be the ultimate gong show. The perfect storm. Take the Fraser River crowd and put them on the vedder. It would be like fishing on the skytrain during rush hour.
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Dave, from what I'm hearing ( Wally Hall )they have not been successful seining in the lower river due to water levels. Dip netting has also been a bust. Some gill netting taking place on the reserve. Not sure how many fish have been taken but I"m sure we can get those figures from the on- site monitors.
Maybe I should not say it but they could get more angling for them, and not by flossing either. ??? :o ;D
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The Vedder/Chilliwack River sockeye were wiped out by overnetting and consequently closed in the late 1950's. The taxpayers of Canada have been funding the Seltzer Creek hatchery and the adjoining FN to bring back the sockeye. Now the netting starts again. Hopefully DFO has learned from their mistake and will closely monitor this fishery. Otherwise we will be caught in a vicious circle, benefiting only one group of people at the expense of the other.
The bright side? This may mean a sockey retention for the rest of us, with one single line and a barbless hook. Is this getting what you paid for? :o
Overnetting by whom ??? The Chiliwack Lake run of sockeye is estimated at 200,000.The largest run in decades because nets have stayed out of the Fraser to protect early Stewart run for the last several yrs. The natives are being allowed to net 15,000 pcs after decades of not being able to net in the Vedder. Good for them.
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at the last meeting DFO said that the run has been rebounding since 2000 , doubling each year, last year was 68,000, this year they expect 136k and counting.
They are not sure why.
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at the last meeting DFO said that the run has been rebounding since 2000 , doubling each year, last year was 68,000, this year they expect 136k and counting.
They are not sure why.
This cycle year has been doubling. 68k was 4 years ago. All other years this run is waaaaaay smaller.
As of yesterday, zero fish taken in seines and dip nets. 15K will be a pipe dream at this stage of the game. I'm glad this fishery was opened this year, for a few reasons. By getting people talking about it I think it will educate for future years' shift towards terminal fisheries. I realize that many people are seeing this in the bubble of the Chilliwack system (chinook by catch, precedent for fall netting etc), but Fraser sockeye salmon management policies are based on watershed-wide allocations. I would much rather see an allocation of 15K sockeye from the Chilliwack this season than from nets hanging in the Canyon picking up Early Stuarts etc (the Early Stuart closure window is coming to an end shortly up there, but so far there's been no fishing).
Be certain that 4 years from now the local bands will be more prepared for this fishery. If implemented as a seine and dip net fishery, I don't have any serious by-catch concerns (Cultus sockeye not in river yet, red Chinook strictly a hatchery run so no conservation concern), but DFo will need to keep the reins on this to keep the lid on the multi-user group tensions that seem unavoidable on the Chilliwack.
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This cycle year has been doubling. 68k was 4 years ago. All other years this run is waaaaaay smaller.
As of yesterday, zero fish taken in seines and dip nets. 15K will be a pipe dream at this stage of the game. I'm glad this fishery was opened this year, for a few reasons. By getting people talking about it I think it will educate for future years' shift towards terminal fisheries. I realize that many people are seeing this in the bubble of the Chilliwack system (chinook by catch, precedent for fall netting etc), but Fraser sockeye salmon management policies are based on watershed-wide allocations. I would much rather see an allocation of 15K sockeye from the Chilliwack this season than from nets hanging in the Canyon picking up Early Stuarts etc (the Early Stuart closure window is coming to an end shortly up there, but so far there's been no fishing).
Be certain that 4 years from now the local bands will be more prepared for this fishery. If implemented as a seine and dip net fishery, I don't have any serious by-catch concerns (Cultus sockeye not in river yet, red Chinook strictly a hatchery run so no conservation concern), but DFo will need to keep the reins on this to keep the lid on the multi-user group tensions that seem unavoidable on the Chilliwack.
No offense dnibbles but I think your living on a cloud if you think that there won't be any nets hanging in the canyon this year. There's nets in the Fraser above Hope "EVERY YEAR" regardless of what's going on with fish numbers etc etc.
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dnipples
Obviously saying that hatchery chinook are of no concern shows that you are not familiar with ongoing brood stock concerns. Where do you think the hatchery is getting their brood stock? There was a concern 2-3 years ago that there would not be enough brood stock and subsequently the limits hole was closed to protect staging fish. If red chinook are taken in any numbers in a seine fishery it could jeopardize future recreational fisheries. I should also mention that gill nets could be brought into the equation if seines and dip nets are not working.
Gill netting has already started at one site and who knows how many fish have been taken. I'm sure any by- catch will be released and sockeye caught will be counted by the monitors . I have no problem with natives taking fish for food or ceremonial purposes but their record of suppling catch information is dismal. By- catch releases , whats that? The precedent for fall netting has been made about 15 years ago when first nations applied for and received permission to seine white chinook in the Chilliwack river. DFO should be very cautious opening new fisheries especially on the heaviest fished river in the province. One only has to look at the Fraser drift and seine net fisheries and the associated problems and hope that it does't come to the Vedder/Chilliwack.
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While I have no problem with First Nations partaking in "Traditional" Fisheries i.e. Chilliwack Lake Sockeye. I do have a problem with FN openings on Hatchery White Springs (and the associated mortalities on Coho and Cultus Sockeye). White springs on the Vedder have never been a traditional species but were transplated for the sake of the recreational fishery funded by taxpayers and the rec. sector.
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It's really sad to see/hear about all this happening. I am only 21 and it seems like the salmon are already practically extinct. Imagine all these problems in 20 years from now? Even with all the rules being implemented you know how many boats with nets I have seen plowing up and down the Fraser out near Annacis island as I am fishing from shore? They even come up these little areas where there is 300m log walls built along side the banks. Me and my friend were getting really upset because some douche comes in to this logged off area with a huge net behind his boat and plows up and down the channel. This was 3-4 weeks ago. It is no wonder salmon are going extinct. It's nice to hear there are some returning numbers in some of the runs but aren't these numbers pennies compared to 200 years ago? I can only dream of the Sockeye runs 200 years ago.
And we as sporties are helping things??
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I wish they made it law so that no one could commercially fish wild salmon, instead if they want fish they could farm the salmon and that is it.
I could learn to like you AaronWilde ;D
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While I have no problem with First Nations partaking in "Traditional" Fisheries i.e. Chilliwack Lake Sockeye. I do have a problem with FN openings on Hatchery White Springs (and the associated mortalities on Coho and Cultus Sockeye). White springs on the Vedder have never been a traditional species but were transplated for the sake of the recreational fishery funded by taxpayers and the rec. sector.
In legal terms it does not matter if the population is transplanted or otherwise artificially boosted. The law says FN have a traditional right to harvest - but does not go on to specify exactly what species or strain. I say law, actually it was only really the Sparrow case that determined the traditional right to harvest. All the subsequent cases have just referenced the Sparrow case rather than re-proven traditional rights.
Hunters have been complaining for ages about FN hunting transplanted elk in the Sunshine Coast / Squamish / Pitt River areas under their traditional harvest rights banner. And getting nowhere.
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In legal terms it does not matter if the population is transplanted or otherwise artificially boosted. The law says FN have a traditional right to harvest - but does not go on to specify exactly what species or strain. I say law, actually it was only really the Sparrow case that determined the traditional right to harvest. All the subsequent cases have just referenced the Sparrow case rather than re-proven traditional rights.
How much would it cost to hire some good lawyers to straighten this out and establish exactly what the right is. It seems to me this right is never challenged by "settlers" or law enforcement really they are all to scared of being branded as racialist
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I no canna speak to this. Though a pirate I may be, I have no time or favour for a poacher. I do my part by not buying poached nerka, and tell my crew and mates to do the same. If there be no market, there be nowhere to sale your ill gotten booty. Now, I does have a wee story for ya, me hearty and I hope it does show the errors in your ways. Yarrrgh, two summers ago, a mealy mouthed man (who I later learned to be a mutinous swab) and I were fishing for Transmontanus at the mouth of the Bedford Channel. The Kwantlen were drifting for Nerkas near by, we in the slack and they in the flow. The sun was high in the sky and the bite was off. There we was, minding our business when a Kwantlen boat done pulled along side and fired a full volley of two fresh nerkas on to our decks! The squaw on the Kwantlen boat said to us: "My elder said I need to share our bounty with you." And she did! Two fine silvery nerkas, full of fresh roe for transmontanus bait and Nerka Flesh for our supper! Lo! We hadda good feast that night me hearty! Yarrgh, fresh Nerka on cedar planks! But the point be that these were good people, sharing their bounty with us. Aye they could covet all the Nerkas in the river, but nay! Share and share alike! A good jester from fine peoples with plenty to be proud of!
So when you be broad brushing all them peoples as poachers, ya best be knowing that it be but a few rotten apples in the barrel. I point more to them preying on the white man's greed rather than their own! Aye aye!
Well said. I had a similar experience myself. I have never had a probem with the native fishery on the lower fraser. They are usually the guys cheering you on when fighting a sturgeon or sharing their catch. I cant say the same about the comercial guys though :-\ ...
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Well said. I had a similar experience myself. I have never had a probem with the native fishery on the lower fraser. They are usually the guys cheering you on when fighting a sturgeon or sharing their catch. I cant say the same about the comercial guys though :-\ ...
What ?? You don't think that the Natives hold commercial licenses too !! There's a hell of a lot of Native commercial boats my friend, in almost every fishery there is on this coast.
They get their food fishery ::) and then the next day the rest of the commercial fleet fishes and who's fishing then too, that's right, all the natives that are licensed vessels for that area.
Funny thing is , is that when they go to offload they usually have twice as much as the Non Native vessels. Simply put ,they sell their "FOOD FISH" along with the commercially caught fish to get the big payday, it's been happening like that for YEARS and YEARS!!!
Seen it far too many times up in the Straits, native boats heading for cambell River with a jag on when all the other boats are at best "average" Don't tell me that their all better fishermen than the "white guy", some definitely are but it's pretty easy to look like a highliner when you rob a creek with your seine the night before the opening. ::)
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And this is why my last salmon caught was 2009 I now only fish stillwaters. I find it funny everybody whining about who is allocated what, guys bitch and whine about the fish farms, yet no one says anything about the sporties and the commies. We just sit here and ask when the fish are running and is there gonna be an opening ...it is to laugh...So ive done my little bit by giving up fishing for salmon.
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I was on the River last Tuesday. There was a group of F/N working their magic across the river from me at the Power Lines. I saw them do 3 dips and come up with 1 fish. They spent more time on the river bank than fishing.
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Hey Bassonator,
Love the profile pic......... ;D
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How much would it cost to hire some good lawyers to straighten this out and establish exactly what the right is. It seems to me this right is never challenged by "settlers" or law enforcement really they are all to scared of being branded as racialist
The SDA (Sports Fishing Defense Alliance) under the leadership of the late Bill Otway worked on this issue for many many years but the lack of support by many, including monetary contributions saw it fade away after many years if hard work by Bill and many others.
If you did not know about the SDA, Goggle it, there will be some info still info there I think.
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Do yar readin' me hearty, for when ya be an informed man ya be far less angry at the world for yar troubles!
R. v. Sparrow, [1990] 1 S.C.R. 1075
http://scc.lexum.org/en/1990/1990scr1-1075/1990scr1-1075.html
Delgamuukw v. British Columbia, [1997] 3 S.C.R. 1010
http://scc.lexum.org/en/1997/1997scr3-1010/1997scr3-1010.html
R. v. N.T.C. Smokehouse Ltd., [1996] 2 S.C.R. 672
http://scc.lexum.org/en/1996/1996scr2-672/1996scr2-672.html
R. v. Kapp, [2008] 2 S.C.R. 483
http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2008/2008scc41/2008scc41.pdf
Cynical maybe but not angry my peg legged friend!
I took the liberty of reading those links which only really serves to reiterate my point before about the Sparrow case. Only that case establishes the aborignal right to fish / hunt. the others just reference it and do not attempt to dispute it. Of the cases you mention:
Delgamuukw - establishes there is a difference between rights and title. Also establishes that wearing unconventional clothes whist dancing and singing a 1000 year old song in a language other than English or French is in fact admissible as evidence in a Canadian court.
N.T.C. Smokehouse Ltd - establishes that First Nations do not have a right to sell fish caught under food/ceremonial license. Perhaps the moderators of Craigslist should be made aware of this decision. http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/pml/for/3168953965.html http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/for/3159220976.html
Kapp - establishes that giving First Nations more commercial fishing opportunities than other groups is not racist or discriminating. I thought this case was the most interesting and frankly full of ****. Apparently the judge said they were given extra rights because of their poor socio-economic status not because of their race. That being the case maybe they should offer the same privileges to people from the downtown eastside? Also the judge said that starting the season a day earlier than everyone else is not even a big enough benefit to be called discrimination.
I wouldnt like to guess the amount of time money and effort wasted on these cases. I will me making sure my kids go to law school and work in this kind of field, must be a huge gravy train.
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I took the liberty of reading those links which only really serves to reiterate my point before about the Sparrow case. Only that case establishes the aborignal right to fish / hunt. the others just reference it and do not attempt to dispute it.
That is because you cannot dispute a Supreme Court decision...that's what makes it "supreme." Once the Supreme Court established the right, then future cases just need to reference it. You do not need to spend millions more dollars making the same arguments again, although I am sure the lawyers wished you did.
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Yes but you can try and take it back to the Supreme court and hope they re consider and with new judges, who knows.. The hard way would be to get enough people to try and change the constitution but in a couple generations though they won't be able to blame 'whitey' anymore for their problems (despite the billions a year they get from people who work for a living) as the make up of Canada is changing and many more people that have come from worse places than the FN an dthey won't have any time for them.
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Yes but you can try and take it back to the Supreme court and hope they re consider and with new judges, who knows.. The hard way would be to get enough people to try and change the constitution but in a couple generations though they won't be able to blame 'whitey' anymore for their problems (despite the billions a year they get from people who work for a living) as the make up of Canada is changing and many more people that have come from worse places than the FN and they won't have any time for them.
I should not dignify that bigoted comment with a response, but you cannot "take it back to the supreme court and hope they reconsider." Maybe we should take back some other cases that you disagree with too. I never thought businesses should be allowed to open on Sunday, and shouldn't doctors and parents really be allowed to sterilize the mentally handicapped? I never liked that ruling that gave women the right to an abortion either. Don't get me started on same sex marriages! Shall I go on?
Face it. You live in unceded territory, territory of a sovereign nation, a nation of people recognized by then King of England as having inherent rights to the land, and you really should be thankful you can fish at all. There are some, the Cheam, for example, who do not feel you have any right to be here at all. This is their territory and you are trespassing. They signed no treaties with the British or Canadian governments. You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only. The First Nations people are protecting their rights as the people of the first nation in this land. Until those rights are extinguished in a treaty, they are their rights regardless of the whim of a new set of judges. Do not allow a few bad examples to convince you to stereotype the whole lot as "people who [do not] work for a living." Not all First Nations fishermen are poachers, just as not all Canadian fishermen are poachers, despite numerous examples of those that are.
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the Supreme court won't revisit the past facts and arguments of previous courts. It doesn't matter that the member judges change. Changes in society do matter but that usually takes at least a generation if or 2. For example close to 60 years separated the Plessy vs Fergusson ruling in the US - the ruling that upheld the racial segregation laws that followed the civil war and the Brown vs the Board of Education ruling that declared racially segregated schools unconstitutional and lead to the dismantling of segregation within 10 or 15 years.
Native rights to harvest fish game and plants has been law in Canada for about 250 years. The courts saw those rights as fixed in 1867 - that is what rights hey have are based on the purposes they harvested for at Confederation
It's hard to see any ruling that would seriously change Sparrow. Sparrow simply established the native right to harvest fish before all other considerations excepting conservation. Sparrow did not confirm or deny a right for natives to sell fish for profit. In fact the only ruling on that has denied it. The Federal Government has established separate agreements allowing commercial sale and generally looks the other way for most commercial activity. Don't expect that to change anytime soon either.
The Sport Fishing Defence fund was IMO something of a joke. Otway et al never established in what way native rights endangered sport fishing. Mostly what the argument was was selfish bickering about who got the biggest piece of a shrinking pie. I am glad it died with a whimper.
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Aye Aye! I doth remember a fine summer day about twelve years ago, tossing out Spin&Glows on PEG LEG bar when Mr Otway and his cronies done shown up for a protest. Flossing themselves a Nerka was what they thought would be the way to 'protest' what was already a dead and alid to rest issue. I done snubbed them when asked to give some cutter to their cause. Aye, Then I watched in horror as they flew Canadian Flags upside down. Any Jack Salt knows this to be a sign of distress. But to me, it be a slighter against Elizabeth II herself! Swabbers! I bore witness when a small armada of them sallied over to the far bank for a floss-a-thon to snag themselves a single Martyred Nerka, club it on the head and present it triumphantly to a Fisheries Constable. Fight the fine they would, aye! Just to go about trying to prove some silly point which was laced with ignorant undertones of racism and bigotry. I knew it was all being done just to make sure the Nerka snag fishery opened and all his mates with their flotilla of yet to be paid off jet boats could earn a dubloon or two taking snaggers out on the flow for their chance to hook the great Nerka Salmon of the Fraser River. Yarrrrgh, it doth shiver me timbers to think of such farce.
Though it be poor form to hold the dead in ill regard, but this humble pirate never did have a good opinion of Mr Otway. I done canceled my subscription to Sport Fishing BC after I got ill from reading the vile matter the publication let Mr Otway publish in every issue. Aye, I wanted to read about fishing adventures, but was met with ill gab from an ill man who had not but ill to say. No thankee me hearties. A saint he be not. My voice he be not. A skinny sick dog fighting for the last bone on the cage is what he was! Aye! I done said it.
Drink up me hearties yo ho!
Perhaps your best yet Pirate. Totally agree
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You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only.
Not really, if I felt that strongly I would just move somewhere else. Voting with your feet has been an important part of so many things in world history.
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Aye Aye! I doth remember a fine summer day about twelve years ago, tossing out Spin&Glows on PEG LEG bar when Mr Otway and his cronies done shown up for a protest. Flossing themselves a Nerka was what they thought would be the way to 'protest' what was already a dead and alid to rest issue. I done snubbed them when asked to give some cutter to their cause. Aye, Then I watched in horror as they flew Canadian Flags upside down. Any Jack Salt knows this to be a sign of distress. But to me, it be a slighter against Elizabeth II herself! Swabbers! I bore witness when a small armada of them sallied over to the far bank for a floss-a-thon to snag themselves a single Martyred Nerka, club it on the head and present it triumphantly to a Fisheries Constable. Fight the fine they would, aye! Just to go about trying to prove some silly point which was laced with ignorant undertones of racism and bigotry. I knew it was all being done just to make sure the Nerka snag fishery opened and all his mates with their flotilla of yet to be paid off jet boats could earn a dubloon or two taking snaggers out on the flow for their chance to hook the great Nerka Salmon of the Fraser River. Yarrrrgh, it doth shiver me timbers to think of such farce.
Though it be poor form to hold the dead in ill regard, but this humble pirate never did have a good opinion of Mr Otway. I done canceled my subscription to Sport Fishing BC after I got ill from reading the vile matter the publication let Mr Otway publish in every issue. Aye, I wanted to read about fishing adventures, but was met with ill gab from an ill man who had not but ill to say. No thankee me hearties. A saint he be not. My voice he be not. A skinny sick dog fighting for the last bone on the cage is what he was! Aye! I done said it.
Drink up me hearties yo ho!
I took part in this protest too, being a member of the SDA as well but the Leaf Craft my mighty ship flew our flag in the correct position with pride. ;D You may personally not agree with the actions of Bill and that is your choice but Bill did a lot of good for the hunting and fishing community during his life and was a person who worked for what he believed in, he did not just sit on the sidelines and talked about issues which of course is easy for many of us to do, not saying you are one of those and we all do appreciate your way of posting on topics.
I disliked very strongly then and now as most people know, TOW, NG (the other way) and BIll and I disagreed on this many times but he accepted that and we remained friends and it was sad to see him pass away a few years ago.
He like like most of us had his short comings on issues but tell me a person that does not. This method of taking fish is a plight on the fishing community, so not wanting to rehash that topic again I will leave it at that. ::)
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I took part in this protest too, being a member of the SDA as well but the Leaf Craft my mighty ship flew our flag in the correct position with pride. ;D You may personally not agree with the actions of Bill and that is your choice but Bill did a lot of good for the hunting and fishing community during his life and was a person who worked for what he believed in, he did not just sit on the sidelines and talked about issues which of course is easy for many of us to do, not saying you are one of those and we all do appreciate your way of posting on topics.
I disliked very strongly then and now as most people know, TOW, NG (the other way) and BIll and I disagreed on this many times but he accepted that and we remained friends and it was sad to see him pass away a few years ago.
He like like most of us had his short comings on issues but tell me a person that does not. This method of taking fish is a plight on the fishing community, so not wanting to rehash that topic again I will leave it at that. ::)
Well said Chris!
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Sandman posted "You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only"
LOL! The Chinese army will never come here, but their army of immigrants and money already arrive long ago. Don't you see those Richmond homes in Rodney's neighbourhood jumping up in prices by the millions and Rodney may already be a multi-millionaire. ;D ;D
Chinese culture is already here and people are taking them by storm. Just look at all the crowd at Chinese restaurants, at Richmond night markets, at Dragon Boat Festival and at Chinese New Year celebrations, you will find many non-Chinese people gladly enjoying with the Chinese people. I bet you if the Chinese are in control, they champion the right of every citizen to fish. Everybody can fish for free and even snakeheads 'the monster fish' will be all over the place. ;D With their huge currency reserve, they should create salmon & steelhead bonanza for us by building lots of hatcheries and stocking them with hundreds of millions of fry much like the Americans do. Another thing, you may save your fishing license fee. Last time I visited China and fished there, I don't think my friends asked me to buy expensive visitor's license, and I didn't see any COs around trying to extract the last drop of your disposal income with violation tickets. Hmmm, China is so loaded with cash reserve and USA & Europe owing them so much money, why would they bother with your petty little fines. ;D ;D ;D
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I took part in this protest too, being a member of the SDA as well but the Leaf Craft my mighty ship flew our flag in the correct position with pride. ;D You may personally not agree with the actions of Bill and that is your choice but Bill did a lot of good for the hunting and fishing community during his life and was a person who worked for what he believed in, he did not just sit on the sidelines and talked about issues which of course is easy for many of us to do, not saying you are one of those and we all do appreciate your way of posting on topics.
I disliked very strongly then and now as most people know, TOW, NG (the other way) and BIll and I disagreed on this many times but he accepted that and we remained friends and it was sad to see him pass away a few years ago.
He like like most of us had his short comings on issues but tell me a person that does not. This method of taking fish is a plight on the fishing community, so not wanting to rehash that topic again I will leave it at that. ::)
Could'nt of said it better Chris, none of us are perfect and it is great to see that although you disagreed about TOW, NG you were still man enough to accept him as a friend and him, you. I hate to see the fishing community splintered and divided for 2 months each year as this issue is addressed, dissected and disagreed upon. With all the crazy stuff happening in the world and this the Huge issue, hmmmm.
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Could'nt of said it better Chris, none of us are perfect and it is great to see that although you disagreed about TOW, NG you were still man enough to accept him as a friend and him, you. I hate to see the fishing community splintered and divided for 2 months each year as this issue is addressed, dissected and disagreed upon. With all the crazy stuff happening in the world and this the Huge issue, hmmmm.
Another great post!
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Chris posted "This method of taking fish is a plight on the fishing community"
That is only true if it is done on other system like the Vedder. There are better methods (like short floating) than bb on smaller systems. But it is not a plight on the Fraser and fishing community is not restricted to some exclusive fishermen. In the fishing world, people use fish traps, nets, even spears to catch some fish, so catching unbiting fish by bb with one rod and a single barbless hook is civil and much less destructive to fish stock than drift nets (which DFO is willing to allow the natives to do).
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Sandman posted "You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only"
LOL! The Chinese army will never come here, but their army of immigrants and money already arrive long ago. Don't you see those Richmond homes in Rodney's neighbourhood jumping up in prices by the millions and Rodney may already be a multi-millionaire. ;D ;D
Chinese culture is already here and people are taking them by storm. Just look at all the crowd at Chinese restaurants, at Richmond night markets, at Dragon Boat Festival and at Chinese New Year celebrations, you will find many non-Chinese people gladly enjoying with the Chinese people. I bet you if the Chinese are in control, they champion the right of every citizen to fish. Everybody can fish for free and even snakeheads 'the monster fish' will be all over the place. ;D With their huge currency reserve, they should create salmon & steelhead bonanza for us by building lots of hatcheries and stocking them with hundreds of millions of fry much like the Americans do. Another thing, you may save your fishing license fee. Last time I visited China and fished there, I don't think my friends asked me to buy expensive visitor's license, and I didn't see any COs around trying to extract the last drop of your disposal income with violation tickets. Hmmm, China is so loaded with cash reserve and USA & Europe owing them so much money, why would they bother with your petty little fines. ;D ;D ;D
you are kidding right..
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Sandman posted "You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only"
LOL! The Chinese army will never come here, but their army of immigrants and money already arrive long ago. Don't you see those Richmond homes in Rodney's neighbourhood jumping up in prices by the millions and Rodney may already be a multi-millionaire. ;D ;D
Chinese culture is already here and people are taking them by storm. Just look at all the crowd at Chinese restaurants, at Richmond night markets, at Dragon Boat Festival and at Chinese New Year celebrations, you will find many non-Chinese people gladly enjoying with the Chinese people. I bet you if the Chinese are in control, they champion the right of every citizen to fish. Everybody can fish for free and even snakeheads 'the monster fish' will be all over the place. ;D With their huge currency reserve, they should create salmon & steelhead bonanza for us by building lots of hatcheries and stocking them with hundreds of millions of fry much like the Americans do. Another thing, you may save your fishing license fee. Last time I visited China and fished there, I don't think my friends asked me to buy expensive visitor's license, and I didn't see any COs around trying to extract the last drop of your disposal income with violation tickets. Hmmm, China is so loaded with cash reserve and USA & Europe owing them so much money, why would they bother with your petty little fines. ;D ;D ;D
Clearly you missed the point, the choice of colonizer is irrelevant, I might as well said they were aliens from Vega. The point was, if someone were to come here and start telling me I could no longer practice my culture in my own land, then I would have something to say about it. I would not "vote with my feet" and simply move away as has been the case in "world history" (I believe with the Jews this was referred to as the diaspora, or great dispersal). No, I would stay, and I would fight to protect my rights and way of life that I enjoyed before the newcomers. They are not saying we cannot fish the streams their ancestors fished for millennia, they are just saying they want first dibs.
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Clearly you missed the point, the choice of colonizer is irrelevant, I might as well said they were aliens from Vega. The point was, if someone were to come here and start telling me I could no longer practice my culture in my own land, then I would have something to say about it. I would not "vote with my feet" and simply move away as has been the case in "world history" (I believe with the Jews this was referred to as the diaspora, or great dispersal). No, I would stay, and I would fight to protect my rights and way of life that I enjoyed before the newcomers. They are not saying we cannot fish the streams their ancestors fished for millennia, they are just saying they want first dibs.
Now that is an awesome post!!
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Sandman posted "You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only"
LOL! The Chinese army will never come here, but their army of immigrants and money already arrive long ago. Don't you see those Richmond homes in Rodney's neighbourhood jumping up in prices by the millions and Rodney may already be a multi-millionaire. ;D ;D
Chinese culture is already here and people are taking them by storm. Just look at all the crowd at Chinese restaurants, at Richmond night markets, at Dragon Boat Festival and at Chinese New Year celebrations, you will find many non-Chinese people gladly enjoying with the Chinese people. I bet you if the Chinese are in control, they champion the right of every citizen to fish. Everybody can fish for free and even snakeheads 'the monster fish' will be all over the place. ;D With their huge currency reserve, they should create salmon & steelhead bonanza for us by building lots of hatcheries and stocking them with hundreds of millions of fry much like the Americans do. Another thing, you may save your fishing license fee. Last time I visited China and fished there, I don't think my friends asked me to buy expensive visitor's license, and I didn't see any COs around trying to extract the last drop of your disposal income with violation tickets. Hmmm, China is so loaded with cash reserve and USA & Europe owing them so much money, why would they bother with your petty little fines. ;D ;D ;D
Well if things are so much better over there....dont let the door hit ya on the way out!!
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But it Be the plight that you speak of good sir! Aye, when a man like Mr Otway done joined the swabbers to go snag a Nerka, he stepped on to the decks of the wrong ship. Aye, the economic force behind the Fraser Nerkas be huge. There be many a guide who no canna put cutter on the debt owed for their jet boats without it. "Lads! Avast! Come with me! Snag yar two Nerkas in the morning then go wrastle with transmontanus in the afternoon! $250 a head! What say ye?" It be amazing how fast a man does sell out his principals when financials are at hand. Lo, I do remember when young Rodney was threatened with losing advertisers if he didn't quash the talk of snaggin' on this here forum.
A swabber be a swab, and called one he must. Anyone who does go snagging for Nerkas on the Fraser River be not but a swab in the captains books. Aye aye!
X2
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OK Pirate I'm convinced, I'll buy the first round ;)
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Aye Aye! I doth remember a fine summer day about twelve years ago, tossing out Spin&Glows on PEG LEG bar when Mr Otway and his cronies done shown up for a protest. Flossing themselves a Nerka was what they thought would be the way to 'protest' what was already a dead and alid to rest issue. I done snubbed them when asked to give some cutter to their cause. Aye, Then I watched in horror as they flew Canadian Flags upside down. Any Jack Salt knows this to be a sign of distress. But to me, it be a slighter against Elizabeth II herself! Swabbers! I bore witness when a small armada of them sallied over to the far bank for a floss-a-thon to snag themselves a single Martyred Nerka, club it on the head and present it triumphantly to a Fisheries Constable. Fight the fine they would, aye! Just to go about trying to prove some silly point which was laced with ignorant undertones of racism and bigotry. I knew it was all being done just to make sure the Nerka snag fishery opened and all his mates with their flotilla of yet to be paid off jet boats could earn a dubloon or two taking snaggers out on the flow for their chance to hook the great Nerka Salmon of the Fraser River. Yarrrrgh, it doth shiver me timbers to think of such farce.
Though it be poor form to hold the dead in ill regard, but this humble pirate never did have a good opinion of Mr Otway. I done canceled my subscription to Sport Fishing BC after I got ill from reading the vile matter the publication let Mr Otway publish in every issue. Aye, I wanted to read about fishing adventures, but was met with ill gab from an ill man who had not but ill to say. No thankee me hearties. A saint he be not. My voice he be not. A skinny sick dog fighting for the last bone on the cage is what he was! Aye! I done said it.
Drink up me hearties yo ho!
I will drink to that! Your best post to date.
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I will drink to that! Your best post to date.
Aye, Aye, Dennis. ;)
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Clearly you missed the point, the choice of colonizer is irrelevant, I might as well said they were aliens from Vega. The point was, if someone were to come here and start telling me I could no longer practice my culture in my own land, then I would have something to say about it. I would not "vote with my feet" and simply move away as has been the case in "world history" (I believe with the Jews this was referred to as the diaspora, or great dispersal). No, I would stay, and I would fight to protect my rights and way of life that I enjoyed before the newcomers. They are not saying we cannot fish the streams their ancestors fished for millennia, they are just saying they want first dibs.
Clearly you have missed the point too.
Multi culturalism, adapting and learning from others is more important now than ever. Globalization and a pretty slack immigration policy in Canada have made this even more important in the last decade for us especially. You and your descendants will never be winners by staying the same. Equally no community/ country / race will progress and succeed in life by being stubborn and refusing to accept the ideas of others (in this case sharing resources equally for the common good of all). Whilst I am not saying noone should all be pushed around and give up their "rights" and way of life with abandon, they need to be mindful of social as well as economic progression.
Lets also not forget that these "rights" were informally agreed about 150 years ago. Things have changed considerably since then. At the time women werent allowed to vote for starters and noone could disagree that the world is a better place now for women sharing the right to vote. I think its safe to say you wouldnt get very far if you tried to ban women voting based on 150 year old laws / customs / traditions / rights.
The world has changed a lot since the 1860s, and most people have adapted to it. Other countries have embraced equality, its time we did the same.
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Clearly you have missed the point too.
Multi culturalism, adapting and learning from others is more important now than ever. Globalization and a pretty slack immigration policy in Canada have made this even more important in the last decade for us especially. You and your descendants will never be winners by staying the same. Equally no community/ country / race will progress and succeed in life by being stubborn and refusing to accept the ideas of others (in this case sharing resources equally for the common good of all). Whilst I am not saying noone should all be pushed around and give up their "rights" and way of life with abandon, they need to be mindful of social as well as economic progression.
Lets also not forget that these "rights" were informally agreed about 150 years ago. Things have changed considerably since then. At the time women werent allowed to vote for starters and noone could disagree that the world is a better place now for women sharing the right to vote. I think its safe to say you wouldnt get very far if you tried to ban women voting based on 150 year old laws / customs / traditions / rights.
The world has changed a lot since the 1860s, and most people have adapted to it. Other countries have embraced equality, its time we did the same.
That is a bit of a red herring as I never said the natives should be stripped of their rights to fish (as the women would be stripped of their their right to vote), you did. And these rights were not "informally" agreed to, the King put their right to what he called their "hunting grounds" into a Royal Proclamation in 1776 (of course he was serving his own interest as it was an attempt to slow the expansion of the American Colonies into the Indian Territories). They are, nonetheless, now engrained into our Constitution. You suggest other countries have embraced equality, but perhaps you could give examples (American Indians? South and Central American natives? Australian Aborigines? New Zealand Maori? And how would the equality work? If there are not enough salmon for all parties (commercial, sport, and aboriginal) then no one fishes? Already sport fishers may get to fish even if a commercial opening is not possible. I am glad, however, that you accept that the world is changing and that native culture is and was not stagnant, and so they should not have to resort to 18th century methods to exercise their inherent rights.
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That is a bit of a red herring as I never said the natives should be stripped of their rights to fish (as the women would be stripped of their their right to vote), you did. And these rights were not "informally" agreed to, the King put their right to what he called their "hunting grounds" into a Royal Proclamation in 1776 (of course he was serving his own interest as it was an attempt to slow the expansion of the American Colonies into the Indian Territories). They are, nonetheless, now engrained into our Constitution. You suggest other countries have embraced equality, but perhaps you could give examples (American Indians? South and Central American natives? Australian Aborigines? New Zealand Maori? And how would the equality work? If there are not enough salmon for all parties (commercial, sport, and aboriginal) then no one fishes? Already sport fishers may get to fish even if a commercial opening is not possible. I am glad, however, that you accept that the world is changing and that native culture is and was not stagnant, and so they should not have to resort to 18th century methods to exercise their inherent rights.
Why cant there be a lottery system to limit catches like there is in hunting?
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That is a bit of a red herring as I never said the natives should be stripped of their rights to fish (as the women would be stripped of their their right to vote), you did. And these rights were not "informally" agreed to, the King put their right to what he called their "hunting grounds" into a Royal Proclamation in 1776 (of course he was serving his own interest as it was an attempt to slow the expansion of the American Colonies into the Indian Territories). They are, nonetheless, now engrained into our Constitution. You suggest other countries have embraced equality, but perhaps you could give examples (American Indians? South and Central American natives? Australian Aborigines? New Zealand Maori? And how would the equality work? If there are not enough salmon for all parties (commercial, sport, and aboriginal) then no one fishes? Already sport fishers may get to fish even if a commercial opening is not possible. I am glad, however, that you accept that the world is changing and that native culture is and was not stagnant, and so they should not have to resort to 18th century methods to exercise their inherent rights.
Perhaps we should try to clear up this "red herring". I was not saying we should take away the right of women to vote, I was saying that you cannot use history as a justification for inequality. Just because women were constitutionally not allowed to vote in the 1800s does not mean they should also be forbidden from voting now. So just because the natives were allowed special fishing rights in the 17 and 1800s does not make it reasonable and applicable today.
And with reference to equality, I was referring to equality across race / gender / creed etc, not equality of indigenous vs settler per se. Whether indigenousness falls under the race umbrella (as per previously mentioned court cases) is irrelevant with respect to the bigger picture of equality. But if we look at Europe as a case study, it was colonized / settled / invaded so many times between 1000BC and 1200AD, yet there are no long standing "heredity indigenous rights" like there are here. So because “colonization” happened in Europe a couple of centuries earlier than in Canada I dont see why the principle is suddenly any different.
As for your point about quotas and limits - if there are not enough salmon for all parties then cut limits for everyone equally and fairly. Does it make a difference to a sport fisherman if the limit is 1 2 or 4? Probably not. Personally I would like to see more fisheries have a 1 fish limit, I think it deters the greedy, undesirable and possibly unethical fishermen but thats by the by. Commercials could easily be moved to a transferable quota system, so the less efficient boats could sell out their quotas to make the system work. And on the subject of commercials, lets be honest there are way too many boats and its a generally crappy industry to be in. So I have no problem with the gment retiring some licenses to make the industry more efficient. And as anorden says, the hunt lottery system might be a suggestion too. Such a system has been hugely successful for hunting across all of North America, lets embrace it.
And although I never opened the traditional methods can of worms, whilst we are on the subject in my view we need to be mindful for a couple of reasons. Firstly traditional methods had a fairly limited catch per unit effort which made them self regulating to a large extent. Modern methods have significantly higher CPUEs and therefore do not sustain fish stocks over the long term. Improved technology requires regulation and responsibility. Second, I view social, technological and cultural development as an exercise in compromise. You cant just cherry pick the best bits of socioeconomic development. I love sweet and sour pork, but when I go to a Chinese restaurant I have to put up with chicken feet, pig trotters and pickled jellyfish. So if natives are to get better technology and techniques for catching salmon, they need to be mindful that there are hidden costs and externalities to the technology. So given how much the world is changing, lets all embrace change – including unequal and very outdated FN “laws”.
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Has the dropping water levels helped with the FNs neting recently? Has anyone seen them netting the lower river in the past couple of days?
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The opening has ended unless it has been extended.
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Thanks, Rod. I thought the target was 15K fish. I never saw the DFO notice for this opening though.
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Yeah the target was 15,000 fish, but have to be caught within the time frame given. ;) I haven't been updated with new info such as extended opening so I'm assuming it has ended. Due to the low success rate experienced, it's unlikely they are requesting for an extension.
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And although I never opened the traditional methods can of worms, whilst we are on the subject in my view we need to be mindful for a couple of reasons. Firstly traditional methods had a fairly limited catch per unit effort which made them self regulating to a large extent. Modern methods have significantly higher CPUEs and therefore do not sustain fish stocks over the long term. Improved technology requires regulation and responsibility. Second, I view social, technological and cultural development as an exercise in compromise. You cant just cherry pick the best bits of socioeconomic development. I love sweet and sour pork, but when I go to a Chinese restaurant I have to put up with chicken feet, pig trotters and pickled jellyfish. So if natives are to get better technology and techniques for catching salmon, they need to be mindful that there are hidden costs and externalities to the technology. So given how much the world is changing, lets all embrace change – including unequal and very outdated FN “laws”.
Couldn't agree more.
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Well said fishbandit66
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And although I never opened the traditional methods can of worms, whilst we are on the subject in my view we need to be mindful for a couple of reasons. Firstly traditional methods had a fairly limited catch per unit effort which made them self regulating to a large extent. Modern methods have significantly higher CPUEs and therefore do not sustain fish stocks over the long term. Improved technology requires regulation and responsibility. Second, I view social, technological and cultural development as an exercise in compromise. You cant just cherry pick the best bits of socioeconomic development. I love sweet and sour pork, but when I go to a Chinese restaurant I have to put up with chicken feet, pig trotters and pickled jellyfish. So if natives are to get better technology and techniques for catching salmon, they need to be mindful that there are hidden costs and externalities to the technology. So given how much the world is changing, lets all embrace change – including unequal and very outdated FN “laws”.
Couldn't agree more.
Which politician are you lobbying for this change?
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Total catch to date in that opening was less than 30 fish. Fisheries and Oceans Canada is issuing another opening for next Monday to Wednesday, daylight hours only (7am to 7pm). This opening will be limited set gillnet (less than 6) in the section of the river above the hatchery and two nets in the lake.
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So the FN don't succeed using selective methods (beach seine and dip nets) so now they get to use gill nets nets in the upper river and the lake ::) I understand the part of getting a crack at sockeye once escapement numbers are met but come on gill nets on the upper river? I wonder how many bull trout and large resident rainbows that use the upper no fishing area as a sanctuary will get caught as well as dollies/bulls in the lake. Selective methods to target a specific species with abundance is one thing, gill nets on a tributary is another :-X
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It didn't take long for DFO to screw this one up, as usual. This opens the door for future abuse which has been ongoing for some time. Next they will want to gill net coho and white chinook. DFO has opened a can of worms on this one and will pay the price. A few anglers i have talked to have said that if gill nets go in the river every fish is fair game. Can't really blame them.
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It didn't take long for DFO to screw this one up, as usual. This opens the door for future abuse which has been ongoing for some time. Next they will want to gill net coho and white chinook. DFO has opened a can of worms on this one and will pay the price. A few anglers i have talked to have said that if gill nets go in the river every fish is fair game. Can't really blame them.
yup.... look foward to the shopping cart weir during low waters !
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Those guy's have been throwing nets across that river for some time. Probably the whole time I've ever fished there and beyond. Maybe not legally but just because their grandfather or someone else told them about fishing there. I seriously doubt that allowing the local first nation guy's from netting some fish up river is going to cause a problem now. After all the logging and resulting damage from that activity. :-\
At the same time keeping it the local few will be a challenge. I remember the story a few years back where they found a nation guy decomposed in the water. He was well known for always netting salmon way lower down on the river. Shatners coming up here to do a show on him. :)
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It didn't take long for DFO to screw this one up, as usual. This opens the door for future abuse which has been ongoing for some time. Next they will want to gill net coho and white chinook. DFO has opened a can of worms on this one and will pay the price. A few anglers i have talked to have said that if gill nets go in the river every fish is fair game. Can't really blame them.
Sox on the BBQ? ??? ;D
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Total catch to date in that opening was less than 30 fish. Fisheries and Oceans Canada is issuing another opening for next Monday to Wednesday, daylight hours only (7am to 7pm). This opening will be limited set gillnet (less than 6) in the section of the river above the hatchery and two nets in the lake.
Less than 30 fish I find that interesting because the last three morning of the week at about 5:30 on my way to work towards the vedder bridge I saw the same pickup truck driven by a First Nation man with a fish tote in the back and from the way the back end of the truck was weighed down it didn't look like it was empty.
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Less than 30 fish I find that interesting because the last three morning of the week at about 5:30 on my way to work towards the vedder bridge I saw the same pickup truck driven by a First Nation man with a fish tote in the back and from the way the back end of the truck was weighed down it didn't look like it was empty.
Maybe it was all ice.
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As said before next time they knock on your door politely refuse to purchase note licencse plate and
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/rec/points/ORR-ONS-eng.htm