Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: alwaysfishn on January 25, 2011, 03:35:15 PM
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A new website is up that will allow you to do your research before voting....
http://www.hstinbc.ca/making_your_choice/ (http://www.hstinbc.ca/making_your_choice/)
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Too bad it is still made by the liberals....can't trust them...
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Too bad it is still made by the liberals....can't trust them...
That's why you need to research the tax for yourself.
Here's a global news article.... http://www.globaltvbc.com/video/index.html?releasePID=XClESKcBnRvDjMI9Yob0TcQ0t4O8EJGO (http://www.globaltvbc.com/video/index.html?releasePID=XClESKcBnRvDjMI9Yob0TcQ0t4O8EJGO)
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A new website is up that will allow you to do your research before voting....
http://www.hstinbc.ca/making_your_choice/ (http://www.hstinbc.ca/making_your_choice/)
They should have put this out before the last election. Too late for this now, they have dug your own grave on this one.
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really AF? Glowball? That's the station where one of the reporters is knee deep in dung for having her head up Krash Heed's, um, never mind. Global is another arm of the Fiberals. They have as much credibility as Gordnocchio. Best advice when you hear right wing "Liberal" propaganda?
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/60078965545d499a01ce95.gif)
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wee i was irst against the HST, but since i am now seeing benefits to the family business, i am for it ::)
so i say keep it and dont waste the money on this vote thing imo.
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oooops - Minor recant on Global- I watched them doing an interview with Christy Clark about some, um, economy with the truth on the BC Rail fiasco that's slowly unraveling for AF's heroes. I don't think Ms. Clark liked being confronted with backed up truth about her denials. The clenched jaw, the fiery eyes and body language suggest the the Liberal train appears to be derailing...so to speak.
my point? Public trust with Liberals and most of the policy they represent is chafing the public the wrong way.
read some stuff here...http://alexgtsakumis.com/
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--I like the HST!
--reduced reporting and collection costs so more net tax benefit to provice for same tax collected
--reduced reporting, paying and paperwork for business.. more time to spend running the business.
--I don't like.... how it was introduced so quickly by the same party that denied it would be introduced.
--It is new and should be reviewed... what items that were subject to GST and not to PST are now HST and are these appropriate.
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As far as it affects my business, yes it is easier.
BUT
BC already has the lowest corporate tax regime in Canada or close to there. Canada itself has a very low corporate tax rate. Banks, thanks to Carole Taylor are getting nearly a free ride. When does it stop being unloaded on to the working stiff? Look at the increases in the past 10 years- MSP premiums, pay parking in provincial parks, Hydro increases to pay for ROR,and so much more crap (Google on yourself) that it's just time to say NO MORE TAXES.No more 500,000 photo ops for the figment of site c, no more 28 million Public Affairs Bureau for a government advertising wing, no more million dollar David Hahns, no more 400 million to casinos to redecorate, no more ridiculous wage hikes an equally ridiculous pensions to the Premier and MLA's.Cut back the ridiculous wages paid to retain "The Brightest and The Best" because all we end up with is people like Paul Taylor making a career of severance pay, no more lowest minimum wage in Canada as corporate gift, no more giveaways to the oil and gas sector.The waste is just plain stupid, nothing else.
Oh, and all these increases to live here started as corporate taxes started dropping in BC...
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You'd rather go back to the PST? Seriously?
HST is a good tax, forget all the party politics and look at the tax (and it's alternative) on their own merits. You can let your feelings for the Liberals be known at the next election.
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What part of responsible government and NO MORE DAMN TAXES is difficult to fathom?
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What part of responsible government and NO MORE DAMN TAXES is difficult to fathom?
How does no taxes work? Are you going to suddenly stop using services and infrastructure? Are you going to see to it that there will be no cost increases, due to inflation, etc., in providing these services and infrastructure. No more taxes means no change in service levels (actually, factoring in inflation in means even further reductions to services - explain that to the recipients of funding generated by taxes). I get it, you hate the Liberals. You've made your point with all your infantile name-calling. Now how about sitting down and weighing the pros and cons of HST vs. going back to the PST. Like I said, you can punish the Liberals come election time.
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Are you unable to read or comprehend? I clearly pointed examples of blatant waste and giveaways in the system and I'm "infantile name calling"? Huh? ( your maturity is underwhelming with asinine commentary like that)I guess your getting a little chafed that Gordo's gone or is it that I don't fawn over people that lie to me and the rest of British Columbians? I'll post it again - try reading slower this time. At no point did I say no taxes - R E A D R E A L S L O W THIS TIME - not no taxes, no more and new taxes.
BC already has the lowest corporate tax regime in Canada or close to there. (pre HST) Canada itself has a very low corporate tax rate. Banks, thanks to Carole Taylor are getting nearly a free ride. When does it stop being unloaded on to the working stiff? Look at the increases in the past 10 years- MSP premiums, pay parking in provincial parks, Hydro increases to pay for ROR,and so much more crap (Google on yourself) that it's just time to say NO MORE TAXES.No more 500,000 photo ops for the figment of site c, no more 28 million Public Affairs Bureau for a government advertising wing, no more million dollar David Hahns, no more 400 million to casinos to redecorate, no more ridiculous wage hikes an equally ridiculous pensions to the Premier and MLA's.Cut back the ridiculous wages paid to retain "The Brightest and The Best" because all we end up with is people like Paul Taylor making a career of severance pay, no more lowest minimum wage in Canada as a corporate gift, no more giveaways to the oil and gas sector.The waste is just plain stupid, nothing else.
Oh, and all these increases to live here started as corporate taxes started dropping like a stone in BC...
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How does no taxes work? Are you going to suddenly stop using services and infrastructure? Are you going to see to it that there will be no cost increases, due to inflation, etc., in providing these services and infrastructure. No more taxes means no change in service levels (actually, factoring in inflation in means even further reductions to services - explain that to the recipients of funding generated by taxes). I get it, you hate the Liberals. You've made your point with all your infantile name-calling. Now how about sitting down and weighing the pros and cons of HST vs. going back to the PST. Like I said, you can punish the Liberals come election time.
There are a few folks that will never understand taxes no matter how simply it's explained. Perhaps it's because they only think with the left side of their brain.... ;D and have very little understanding of economics.
For example, low corporate taxes means corporations will prefer to invest in this province, rather than in another province or in the U.S. When corporations invest in this province they create jobs in this province. This gives the citizens of this province jobs and the great lifestyle they enjoy.
Conclusion: While people may pay a little more in taxes, at least they have jobs. Compare this to being unemployed because their employer just moved out of the province due to the government raising corporate taxes. ???
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There are a few folks that will never understand taxes no matter how simply it's explained. Perhaps it's because they only think with the left side of their brain.... ;D and have very little understanding of economics.Nice little cheap shot AF - I however stick around and respond instead of running away, unlike YOU know who. Oh, and the last time I checked, I was running a profitable business, based on supply and demand, not how many dollars I got in corporate welfare. I might just have a little understanding, although it's obviously no where near as great as yours, Sire.(sarcasm)
For example, low corporate taxes means corporations will prefer to invest in this province, rather than in another province or in the U.S. When corporations invest in this province they create jobs in this province. This gives the citizens of this province jobs and the great lifestyle they enjoy.And what province led the way -IN JOB LOSSES ???
Tell me old bean - IF there's already one of the lowest tax rates in North America- WHY are we subsidizing ANY business? Oil and gas sector? Ruin of the river? It would appear we already are giving, but not enough to quench the corporate greed.
Conclusion: While people may pay a little more in taxes, at least they have jobs. Compare this to being unemployed because their employer just moved out of the province due to the government raising corporate taxes. ???
So in conclusion - Although we live in an area abundant with natural resources, some of the lowest tax rates and tons of opportunity, we need to put all taxes on the citizens so head office in New York, Toronto or Chicago can ride for free. All the we end up with this stuff , because it's more important to give to corporations (Does this make you proud of your Liberal team?)
http://www.rcybc.ca/Images/PDFs/Reports/Fragile%20Lives%20-%20FINAL%20Jan%202011.pdf
or this
( the best government money can buy - I left out the giveaway of BC RAIL - that's taking a nasty turn, isn't it? 6 million to silence criminals?)
The Campbell administration has appointed one of its closest political allies to Port Metro Vancouver's board. According to an information bulletin quietly posted on the government's Website earlier today but not distributed to the media, Independent Contractors and Business Association of British Columbia president Philip Hochstein has been given a seat on that board. Mr. Hochstein's association represents non-unionized contractors and has donated $60,160 to the provincial Liberals between 2005 and 2009. It has also been responsible for third party advertising campaigns that have aligned with the interests of the party and the government. Mr. Hochstein's appointment will expire on February 28, 2014. Port Metro Vancouver is responsible for the operation and development of the assets and jurisdictions of the combined former Fraser River Port Authority, North Fraser Port Authority and Vancouver Port Authority.
I suggest this be read, not skimmed but read. Then respond.
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Novabonker, you make it clear every time you post that you are on an anti-government campaign. You only bit$h and complain, you never suggest a constructive alternative.
I enjoy a good debate. I don't take politics that seriously, and I try to look at the forest rather than just the rotten trees....
Having a discussion with you is pointless so I avoid it..... ???
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Novabonker, you make it clear every time you post that you are on an anti-government campaign. You only bit$h and complain, you never suggest a constructive alternative.
I enjoy a good debate. I don't take politics that seriously, and I try to look at the forest rather than just the rotten trees....
Having a discussion with you is pointless so I avoid it..... ???
Agreed. The guy comes off as pretty irrational and is not open to discussion. It's just rant, rant, rant.
I'd like to know what this fantastic business is of his, so that I can be sure not to give him my business.
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For example, low corporate taxes means corporations will prefer to invest in this province, rather than in another province or in the U.S. When corporations invest in this province they create jobs in this province. This gives the citizens of this province jobs and the great lifestyle they enjoy.
--I think (ie not 100% sure) that USA based companies in Canada have to pay tax in USA.. based on the USA rate... that is the Canada tax is just a deduction thus if Canada tax is lower they just pay more to USA government rather than to Canada. Obviously know tax structure is not that simple but essentially that is what happens
--Have seen how the Call Centres work... promise of jobs... city gives municipal tax reduction for 3 years to company with promise of secure jobs... tax break end... company jumps to next city or country... willing to give free ride.
--Kinda like low holing a guy on the river.
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--I think (ie not 100% sure) that USA based companies in Canada have to pay tax in USA.. based on the USA rate... that is the Canada tax is just a deduction thus if Canada tax is lower they just pay more to USA government rather than to Canada. Obviously know tax structure is not that simple but essentially that is what happens
For a US company to operate in Canada they need to set up a separate company in Canada. Any profits that the Canadian company makes must pay taxes in Canada. The Canadian company can then move cash to the US company either through paying dividends or repaying loans.
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Agreed. The guy comes off as pretty irrational and is not open to discussion. It's just rant, rant, rant.
I'd like to know what this fantastic business is of his, so that I can be sure not to give him my business
I'm an independent nomadic sheep herder, run a full time brain surgery clinic when I'm not flying people to Mars for summer holidays.;D As well as I'm a fellow at the Fraser Institute. I almost forgot about that.
While a one man boycott strikes terror in my heart and shakes me to the very center of my being, I do believe I'll recover if I can file for protection from creditors and refinance. :D
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It's all right. I've no use for carpet cleaners anyways.
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Novabonker, you make it clear every time you post that you are on an anti-government campaign. You only bit$h and complain, you never suggest a constructive alternative.
reread my posts- they're chock full of examples of government wasting billions- Olympics, billion dollar photo ops, from the top on down, there's to much cronyism and , well, blatant acts of wasteful spending, oputting business before the well being of the citizens. I implore you to read Turpel - Lafond's report that was issued this week.21 babies that died and many due to lack of effort by an uncaring party with really screwed up priorities and a ministry that is beyond messed up- I see no effort to remedy, just rhetoric in response.Read it. We're cutting funding to those that don't have choices, while we shovel tax breaks on an already low taxed system.
If one of your children was sick and desperately needed attention , would you take money and put in your RSP or buy medicine to make your child better? The present rulers see fit for the RSP option, hoping the fever goes away, instead of buying the antibiotics. But they run for cover or point fingers the other way instead of accepting things and trying to right them. This is just one example of government given too much power and an utter lack of accountability. You are wrong- I'm not on a an anti government campaign. I'm on an honest accountable for the people government campaign.
Here's a couple of thoughts on how to increase revenue - Give corporate tax incentives to companies that are tied to how they create new jobs,tied in for companies that use them to buy new equipment and build new plants here, not just because. Figure a way to waive sales tax to companies that sell BC manufactured products in BC.Creating incentive for BC business.
I enjoy a good debate. I don't take politics that seriously, and I try to look at the forest rather than just the rotten trees....
Having a discussion with you is pointless so I avoid it..... ???
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It's all right. I've no use for carpet cleaners anyways.
Perhaps a nice install instead? Funny fact - I placed lucky number 13 in the top 25 in my profession in North America, my first year in the top 25. If you get a stain, let me know as I can and would be pleased to help. :-*
( Gee, where did you get my personal info? ::))
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Here's a global news article.... http://www.globaltvbc.com/video/index.html?releasePID=XClESKcBnRvDjMI9Yob0TcQ0t4O8EJGO
Canwest-Gordo has no credibility at all, they are nothing but the propaganda arm of the BC Liberal party.
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The bank giveaway.....We all know banks aren't profitable are they? 100 plus million in tax breaks and 1600 less jobs ??? ??? ??? How can that be?
(Dontcha hate it when fact overcomes fiction? Darn that inconvinient truth!)
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/01/31/BankJob/
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--From the Tyee: so you don't have to read the whole article.....based on quote from Carole Taylor
"In the last 10 years in Canada, employment by the banks has risen by over 12 per cent across the country. In B.C., the employment growth in this sector was less than 3 per cent."
Today, three years after Taylor's historic move, have Canada's largest financial institutions begun "building their business in B.C.," as she suggested? As bank taxes went down, have their employment rolls gone up?
Well, no. B.C. actually lost more than 1,600 big bank positions last year, even as our financial behemoths continued to expand and concentrate their operations in the country's largest province, Ontario, and, increasingly, outside Canada.
--Lowered taxes like found money... they don't necessarily spend it where they found it.
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--From the Tyee: so you don't have to read the whole article.....based on quote from Carole Taylor
"In the last 10 years in Canada, employment by the banks has risen by over 12 per cent across the country. In B.C., the employment growth in this sector was less than 3 per cent."
Today, three years after Taylor's historic move, have Canada's largest financial institutions begun "building their business in B.C.," as she suggested? As bank taxes went down, have their employment rolls gone up?
Well, no. B.C. actually lost more than 1,600 big bank positions last year, even as our financial behemoths continued to expand and concentrate their operations in the country's largest province, Ontario, and, increasingly, outside Canada.
--Lowered taxes like found money... they don't necessarily spend it where they found it.
It's a result of banks centralizing their operations. Most businesses try to do this as it makes for more efficient operations. If you look into it further most of the job gains were at the head offices as a result of the banks putting more resources into wealth management (selling mutual funds) over the last 10 years. This requires analysts, traders etc. always located in a centralized location.
What Taylor did was lower corporate taxes for all corporations in BC. Suggesting that Banks are moving jobs out of BC inspite of the tax reduction is typical NDP political posturing. It's a simplistic comment that takes information out of context in order to try and gain votes.
With a GDP growth of around 2% or less in BC, I'm sure the province is thrilled that the BC share of jobs in the Financial sector grew by 3%.
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There are a few folks that will never understand taxes no matter how simply it's explained. Perhaps it's because they only think with the left side of their brain.... ;D and have very little understanding of economics.
For example, low corporate taxes means corporations will prefer to invest in this province, rather than in another province or in the U.S. When corporations invest in this province they create jobs in this province. This gives the citizens of this province jobs and the great lifestyle they enjoy.
Conclusion: While people may pay a little more in taxes, at least they have jobs. Compare this to being unemployed because their employer just moved out of the province due to the government raising corporate taxes. ???
this topic reminds me so much of my college/university days and all the heated debates amongst students and faculty.
though you have some valid points, you failed to mention how the allocation of dollars from these taxes are distributed...also, how is it justified that when you buy (ie) a new car, you pay hst on it and if you resell it the new owner has to pay hst all over again for a product that have already been taxed? wouldn't you think that constitutes double dipping? the debate here is what exactly are you being taxed on, the product itself? or the privilege of pertaining ownership of the product (which would fall under the gst)?
also it's hard to compare provinces because of the differences in economic policies and structure...inflation, location, and living standards play a big part....obviously, in fairness to those who oppose the tax, corporations should operate on the same playing field as consumers and the general public... case in point as in Alberta where big companies enjoy tax breaks, but in turn consumers also benefit in the form of higher wages and a lower cost of living.
would you know exactly how much bc would benefit by giving big corporate names tax breaks where inflation increased 2%?
my biggest beef with any tax is the lack of public access to information on how the funds are allocated and managed... it all comes down to trust....back in 2009 the bc government bragged about having a 50 million dollar surplus during a budget forecast...only to uncover an actual deficit of 1.4 billion dollars....don't believe everything you read, unless it's backed with concrete fact and evidence.
this is not to say i'm anti tax...i just believe in accountability, that's why i buy locally rather than cross border for the sake of saving a few bucks...but even there, you can't blame canadians for refusing to pay more for what they know is over priced to begin with.
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I don't like taxes any more than the next person. I think the difference between them and me is I would be content living in a small house, driving to work on a gravel road, living simply......
Most people wouldn't..... so governments provide the stuff people want and tax us so they can pay for it. THey will and can tax us any way they can come up with hoping that we won't get mad enough to vote them out.
Of course the more stuff governments provide, the more people want. And when something goes wrong then there is always someone who will find all kinds of way of skewing facts and making up fiction to discredit the government.... That's when democracy kicks in and we all have an opportunity to provide our input on election day.
Not a perfect system but probably one of the best on the planet....
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B.C. prepares for HST decision
Former Alberta finance minister Jim Dinning, now chancellor of the University of Calgary, is chairing a panel to compare B.C.'s old and new sales taxes before a referendum that could be held as early as June.
Black Press
By Tom Fletcher - BC Local News
Published: January 30, 2011 10:00 AM
Updated: January 30, 2011 11:01 AM
Jim Dinning admits that it's ironic for a former Alberta finance minister to be asked to weigh the merits of B.C.'s two choices for sales taxes.
But now out of politics and serving as chancellor of the University of Calgary, Dinning is chairing an independent review panel to compare the harmonized sales tax with B.C.'s former provincial sales tax before a referendum on the HST later this year.
Also named to the panel are former B.C. auditor-general George Morfitt, Simon Fraser University professor John Richards and Tracie Redies, CEO of Coast Capital Savings.
Their report is due April 1, and will make no recommendation on either the HST or the PST, Dinning told Black Press.
"Polling showed that people don't feel they have all the facts they need, and they're looking for an independent source rather than just the government information source," he said.
The Canadian Taxpayers' Federation is making a recommendation to voters: keep the HST and demand a lower rate to reflect the broader base of the new sales tax.
Gregory Thomas, the CTF's communications director for B.C., says voting "no" in the referendum would kill off the "63-year-old relic" of the PST. He argues that the federal government reduced the Goods and Services Tax from seven to five per cent, and B.C. could do the same.
"Here in B.C. the government could have introduced the HST at a lower rate," Thomas said. "Instead they chose to create an expensive and confusing rat's maze of exemptions, credits and loopholes for special interests, and pay for it by charging ordinary taxpayers an exorbitant seven-per-cent HST rate."
Thomas noted that if the HST rate were lowered, credits paid to a million low-income B.C. residents would also come down.
For special interests, he cited home builders, who benefit from HST credits and also successfully lobbied the province to raise the exemption for new home construction to $525,000. Resale housing is not subject to HST.
The B.C. government also launched a new website at www.hstinbc.ca to offer videos and answers to frequently asked questions about the change from PST to GST.
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my biggest beef with any tax is the lack of public access to information on how the funds are allocated and managed... it all comes down to trust....back in 2009 the bc government bragged about having a 50 million dollar surplus during a budget forecast...only to uncover an actual deficit of 1.4 billion dollars....don't believe everything you read, unless it's backed with concrete fact and evidence.
this is not to say i'm anti tax...i just believe in accountability, that's why i buy locally rather than cross border for the sake of saving a few bucks...but even there, you can't blame canadians for refusing to pay more for what they know is over priced to begin with.
Thank you!
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/LOL-Monty_Python_Applause.gif)
Yes - Cut and pasted below, but very well thought out and far better articulated than I am capable of.
I'm not sure if a good many of our politicians are dumber than stumps or just easy pickings for lobbyists. Either way, critical thinking doesn't seem to be their forte.
Why does a person, or group of people, start a business venture in the first place? Is it to create jobs for the great unwashed? Not likely. Is it to make money? Hello!
Is there a direct correlation between taxation and the number of employees a company will utilize? It is doubtful, unless the taxation levels are so onerous that the company cannot afford to hire enough employees to keep their business venture viable, which would most likely see them close shop. The myth that a business will hire more people on the basis of tax relief makes no sense. They will hire more employees if and when they require them in order to be a viable entity. Even then, it will only happen when they have maximized the output from their existing staffing level and have no choice but to hire more people or begin to lose market share.
The Canadian banks are in an even more enviable position because as long as they play ball with the feds, they will not face any real competition from foreign entities. When can anyone attribute the major banks in Canada suffering losses attributed to taxation levels. Certainly not in my lifetime. Their few blips on the profit side of the ledger have occurred by becoming more willing to take risks in foreign countries.
As a matter of fact, the arguments brought forward by Carole Taylor on the elimination of the corporation capital tax regarding job gains can be applied to the arguments brought forward by the BC Liberal Party with regards to the HST.
Lastly, who will have the honour of making up for this $100+ million shortfall each year going forward? I can guarantee it won't be the politicians. It will be John Q. Public, either in the form of higher taxes/government imposed fees or a reduction in health, education or other supportive services. Remember, government has no money, only the ability to take money from someone to give to someone else.
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If you cut and pasted that, it would be nice if you would provide a link or reference to the source.
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If you cut and pasted that, it would be nice if you would provide a link or reference to the source.
What does it matter? It shows a good bit of common sense.But since your post re: It's all right. I've no use for carpet cleaners anyways.
Why would I offer you that courtesy or go through the bother? ??? ;) :o :o To set up another personal attack or maybe post some more of my personal info? Attack the message, not the person.
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Citing the source is just a simple courtesy to the original author. To fail to do so is called plagiarism.
As for your personal info, you posted it for all to read. I really didn't have to do anything, so I'm not sure why you're getting your panties in a wad.
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=17050.msg165039#msg165039
As for personal attacks, go back and read your own posts since the beginning of your HST/Government rants. You seem to have problems being civil to anybody who offers a view counter to your own.
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Then let's all take a deep breath and try civility for a switch. Obviously, we disagree on a few subjects, to slightly understate. Just mildly. I have strong opinions, but I can admit to getting a bit carried away as we all can - you included. The war of the keyboards hits a ceasefire.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/bitchslap.gif)
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How much the tax load has shifted:( No "plagiarism" here folks ;D)
http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/BC-Politics/2011/02/06/DixSparksDebate/
Liberal Kevin Falcon has set himself up as the business leadership candidate. Now New Democrat hopeful Adrian Dix has claimed the opposite side.
Dix took one of the bolder positions of both campaigns so far by saying he would raise corporate taxes to fund needed services. It's striking how little real discussion there has been of the dramatic business tax cuts over the last decade and the resulting service cuts and much higher taxes and fees paid by individuals and families. It's been a big shift. You can't readily allocate all government revenues to individuals and business. Both pay the carbon tax, for example.
But even a rough cut at the numbers shows companies are paying a far smaller share of the government's bills than they did a decade ago. In 2001, direct corporate taxes and royalties of various kinds provided about 22 per cent of government revenues. Today, after tax changes by the Campbell government, that's down to about 10 per cent. Despite inflation and economic growth, corporations are paying about $1 billion less in readily attributable taxes than they were in 2001, a drop of about 20 per cent.
Individuals and families are paying about $8 billion more, an increase of about 60 per cent. (The change isn't just in income taxes. MSP premiums, for example have increased more than 80 per cent; the government is also taking in more indirectly, through B.C. Lotteries, for example.)
You can argue the details. But the shift is undeniable and large. Corporations and businesses are paying a greatly reduced share of the province's bills.
That's by design, and a perfectly legitimate policy. The theory is that lower taxes would encourage companies to invest here, which would mean jobs and growth. Families would have to pay more to make up for the corporate tax cuts, but, in theory, benefit from a strong economy.
But we haven't had a real public discussion about the tax shift. In part, that's why the HST -- which shifted $1.9 billion a year off corporations and onto individuals and families -- made people mad. Dix proposed to claw back about $270 million in corporate tax cuts, which would still leave them paying about $700 million less in direct taxes than a decade ago.
Politically, it sets him apart from the main candidates from both parties, though it won't win business friends and supporters.
Meanwhile, Falcon has presented himself as the candidate of choice for B.C. business. Falcon has racked up, and promoted, endorsements from a flock of business people. They bought a full-page ad in the Vancouver Sun and his campaign team has sent out press releases celebrating his corporate support. It's impressive, at least to some Liberal party supporters.
But Falcon was already seen as business-friendly and likely had the support of those supporters. And he risks being seen as short on support from other groups. What he needs, in terms of winning the leadership, are similar indications from other sectors.
He was the health minister, for example. Where are the patient groups or doctors or seniors' organization offering the same kind of ringing endorsement he's getting from the business sector? Or the women's shelter or teen group in his riding praising his insight and efforts?
Both Dix and Falcon are staking clear positions that reflect the interests their respective party's core supporters, which might help win support in the leadership contest.
That success might not translate as well into an actual election campaign, where the emphasis is on winning over moderate or uncommitted voters.
But Dix has, at least, started a needed debate on tax policy and who should pay for the services government provides.
The tax shift under the Liberals has seen business pay much less and individuals and families pay much more, without a great deal of public discussion of the impacts on the economy and British Columbians.
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Vander Zalm: BC Government’s so-called “Independent Panel on HST” report delayed to avoid becoming federal election issue, so Fight HST releasing its own study.
DELTA – (Tuesday, April 5, 2011) – Former BC premier and Fight HST Leader Bill Vander Zalm says his grassroots volunteer group has completed a comprehensive study on the problems with the Harmonized Sales Tax in BC, elsewhere in Canada and worldwide and is releasing its report today.
Vander Zalm says the BC government’s so-called “Independent Panel” was originally scheduled to publish its findings this week, but declined to do so to avoid the HST becoming a significant issue during the federal election.
“Why would a supposedly independent group’s report on the HST not be released as planned - unless the BC government was scared it would become a major issue during this federal election,” Vander Zalm said. “BC voters have consistently been left in the dark about the HST by the BC Liberal government since before the 2009 provincial election when they denied plans to impose it. Now they’re doing it again.”
Vander Zalm says BC voters are preparing for the upcoming June 24 mail-in ballot referendum on extinguishing the HST and need solid information to counter the “disinformation” promoted by the government and their supporters in the big business lobby.
He says Fight HST’s study, titled: “HST or PST? The truth about the HST and why returning to the PST is better for BC” is a damning indictment of the harmful effects of the HST on the economy and jobs, and is based on information that is publicly available – but has been completely ignored by the BC government throughout the entire HST debate.
“With the HST, also called a Value Added Tax (VAT), there is a long history going all the way back to 1954 in France and up to the present day in Europe, Canada and around the world. It is easy to trace its damaging effects everywhere it has been implemented. Economies in Europe are teetering on the brink of collapse from excessive taxation and the VAT, which is driving large parts of their economies underground to avoid this tax,” said Vander Zalm.
“In Canada the provinces with HST have the highest unemployment, while those without an HST have the lowest – more than half as much in some cases. In BC, unemployment has risen almost a full percentage point since the introduction of the HST, resulting in tens of thousands of job losses. It’s a disaster.”
Vander Zalm says the report shows how the HST in Europe and the Maritimes is responsible for inflation, economic stagnation and an increase in the overall tax burden, including income taxes.
“It is a bad tax system. And any of the touted benefits can easily be achieved without harmonizing our sales taxes with Ottawa. Our report is well researched, and unlike the spurious claims by the pro HST side, it includes references to all sources to support the information contained in it.”
Some of the report’s findings include:
* VAT’s in Europe began at about 6% and now average 20%, with some countries as high as 25%.
* Unemployment in Canadian provinces with the HST range between 8.2% in Ontario and BC to 12.4% in Newfoundland.
* Unemployment in non HST provinces like Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are in the 5% range – over half the rate of some HST provinces.
* The HST will cost BC taxpayers an average of $400-$500 each year for every man, woman and child for a total increased tax burden of $10 billion in just the first 5 years of implementation.
* The HST (VAT) is responsible for shrinking the tax base, increasing government debt, and increasing unemployment.
* The HST is not necessary to exempt businesses from sales taxes or to streamline compliance.
* The HST is “revenue neutral” to government with all extra revenues going to tax refunds for business and none to social programs like health care or education.
* Returning to the PST or a revised form of PST will save BC taxpayers billions of dollars.
* The HST hands control of BC sales taxes to Ottawa.
Vander Zalm says his group will publish its report on its web site, and will begin a viral marketing campaign using email, Twitter, Facebook and other new media to distribute the report throughout the province so British Columbians can read for themselves how bad the tax is.
He says he and Fight HST spokespersons Chris Delaney and Bill Tieleman will make themselves available to explain the report and to field questions from the media in the coming weeks.
Please forward this email report to everyone you know so all British Columbians can know the truth about the HST
ONLINE ARTICLE INCLUDING PDF REPORT
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http://fighthst.com/media/TheTruthAbouttheHST.pdf (http://fighthst.com/media/TheTruthAbouttheHST.pdf)
I'm suspecting there is more than a little bias built into Mr Vanderzalm's report. It certainly is not presenting both sides of the argument. It's understandable though, given that he would look pretty silly if he suddenly came out in favor of the HST........ ::)
I suggest waiting for the government report. Remember Campbell is no longer there. The new Premier (like her or not) has publicly stated that the HST decision is up to the people. She has moved the HST vote date up by several months, and is going to make it real easy for everyone to vote by not requiring them to go to a polling station. Given that keeping the HST or removing it has no reflection on her decision (she wasn't involved in the decision to implement the HST) I would tend to believe the government's report as being the most objective and unbiased on the HST.
Vanderzalm on the other hand apparently still has an axe to grind and definitely has an ego which would not allow him to say "I'm wrong". Besides, given that his recall campaigns are showing up as a complete failure, I think he is straining to rescue any credibility he may have had.....
Presenting a biased report that he suggests is unbiased is not helping his credibility.
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Does it make things easier for my business? Yes . Does it make sense to the working stiff? No. Say bye bye Liberals, as if this doesn't get you fired, surely Mr. Cummins will split your base. FLOOOSHH!
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--not really directly related but fun facts...Next year BC government will collect more revenue from tuition fees than corporate taxes. At least we have an idea where the tuition fees go.
--In Manitoba at tax time... students can deduct residence fees and cost of computer.. both essentials and especially important for rural students who have to pay for accommodation on top tuition.
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--not really directly related but fun facts...Next year BC government will collect more revenue from tuition fees than corporate taxes.
Could you provide some hard evidence that proves this statement ? eg . some actual numbers from a reputable source .
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Could you provide some hard evidence that proves this statement ? eg . some actual numbers from a reputable source .
--I called these fun facts on student tuition vs corporate taxes collected as I did not personally investigate nor substantiate them.
--The Fast Fact BC students will pay for corporate tax breaks.. came from the March edition of a news letter available to the public and produced by NUPGE.. that is National Union of Public Government Employees.. I'm sure the Frazer Institute which for some is much more credible can research and comment on the accuracy.
--The second statement you can look up the Manitoba Tax act... as U of Manitoba provided documentation for tax deduction of residence fees and computer.. I thought this is a great help.. however when we submitted them to BC..the expenses for tax was denied as it is only applicable for deduction in Manitoba... As you will be aware a student attending university outside of BC is considered to be a permanent resident of BC unless they officially change their residence.. ie move permanently to the other province.
--I believe that Manitoba deduction for residence fees would be a great help if considered in BC for rural students who have the added expense of not being able to live at home when attending University.
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--I called these fun facts on student tuition vs corporate taxes collected as I did not personally investigate nor substantiate them.
--The Fast Fact BC students will pay for corporate tax breaks.. came from the March edition of a news letter available to the public and produced by NUPGE.. that is National Union of Public Government Employees.. I'm sure the Frazer Institute which for some is much more credible can research and comment on the accuracy.
--The second statement you can look up the Manitoba Tax act... as U of Manitoba provided documentation for tax deduction of residence fees and computer.. I thought this is a great help.. however when we submitted them to BC..the expenses for tax was denied as it is only applicable for deduction in Manitoba... As you will be aware a student attending university outside of BC is considered to be a permanent resident of BC unless they officially change their residence.. ie move permanently to the other province.
--I believe that Manitoba deduction for residence fees would be a great help if considered in BC for rural students who have the added expense of not being able to live at home when attending University.
Now that is funny! .....isn't a source either credible or not credible.... period?
A fact is a fact no matter who says it!
Suggesting that students are paying for corporate tax breaks is not a fact. Pure logic suggests that a corporate tax break is a discount or a credit, not a payment of cash. Therefore it would be impossible for students to be paying for corporate tax breaks! :D
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Continuation of my previous post......
skaha: I believe this is the post you were quoting from..... http://alltogethernow.nupge.ca/fast-facts (http://alltogethernow.nupge.ca/fast-facts)
The following exert is interesting.... "Tax Havens: In 2009, Statistics Canada reported that $78.4 billion of Canadian assets were invested in the tax havens of Barbados, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands, exceeding the GDP of these tiny jurisdictions many times over.
Five big banks hide big money: Between 1993 and 2003, the five big banks used their offshore accounts to avoid paying $16 Billion in Canadian taxes. - University of Quebec study"
This alone is an argument for why corporate tax breaks are necessary. A corporation exists not for the benefit of all citizens, it exists for the benefit of it's investors. Without investors, the corporation does not exist. If the corporation doesn't exist there are no jobs for the citizens. In order for an investor to invest in a corporation, the investor needs to believe that the corporation will make money so that as a result the investor will benefit from the growth of their investment.
As a result the corporation will do whatever is necessary including moving part of it's business outside of the country in order to give it's investors higher returns (profits) on their investment. If a corporation doesn't do this the investors will leave causing the corporations shares to fall in value and potentially go out of business.
This is why it is important for governments to provide corporate tax breaks. Lower corporate taxes are a huge incentive for corporations to keep their business in this country, and provides incentives for other corporations world wide to come and establish businesses in this country. This creates jobs in Canada and the taxes from those jobs will provide health care and education subsidies that everyone in Canada wants. Increase corporate taxes and you will lose jobs.
If you look at the US you will see that they are having a huge unemployment problem in that their corporate taxes are some of the highest in the world, and their corporations are moving parts of their business outside of the US to countries that have lower corporate tax rates. Apparently US corporations have over 4 trillion invested outside of the country.
If you want to learn more about the dangers of high corporate taxes, listen to this CBS 60 minute (the show) documentary....http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7360932n&tag=contentBody;housing (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7360932n&tag=contentBody;housing)
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Suggesting that students are paying for corporate tax breaks is not a fact. Pure logic suggests that a corporate tax break is a discount or a credit, not a payment of cash. Therefore it would be impossible for students to be paying for corporate tax breaks!
-- It is not directly related just a comparison to put into prospective that students pay about the same for tuition in BC as the Corporation's pay in tax. It is difficult for me to visualize what a Billion dollars means in terms of value. HST was much applauded by the forest industry as a direct reduction in their total tax burden.
--I'm not quite left wing enough to want all corporations taxed to death or nationalized (maybe some).. I liked the idea of the Canadian government owning Petro Can and its refineries.. It gave us something to squawk about... and also gave some perspective into the industry.
--I'm also very impressed that big business can be so united in their cause and slogan of lower taxes and less government. In public they insist on an even playing field yet behind closed doors each seeks a break for themselves only and a monopoly rather than competition. My perspective is that if they were united in purpose there would only be a need to register ONE lobbyist to speak on behalf for all corporations. I am quite sure there is more than one registered lobbyist and even a few as we have learned recently that are not registered.
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Suggesting that students are paying for corporate tax breaks is not a fact. Pure logic suggests that a corporate tax break is a discount or a credit, not a payment of cash. Therefore it would be impossible for students to be paying for corporate tax breaks!
-- It is not directly related just a comparison to put into prospective that students pay about the same for tuition in BC as the Corporation's pay in tax. It is difficult for me to visualize what a Billion dollars means in terms of value. HST was much applauded by the forest industry as a direct reduction in their total tax burden.
--I'm not quite left wing enough to want all corporations taxed to death or nationalized (maybe some).. I liked the idea of the Canadian government owning Petro Can and its refineries.. It gave us something to squawk about... and also gave some perspective into the industry.
--I'm also very impressed that big business can be so united in their cause and slogan of lower taxes and less government. In public they insist on an even playing field yet behind closed doors each seeks a break for themselves only and a monopoly rather than competition. My perspective is that if they were united in purpose there would only be a need to register ONE lobbyist to speak on behalf for all corporations. I am quite sure there is more than one registered lobbyist and even a few as we have learned recently that are not registered.
That comparison doesn't put anything into perspective! It's like saying Jimmy Pattison spends as much to maintain his Yacht each month as 100 families spend on groceries..... it's totally unrelated and irrelevant.
The problem with those kinds of statements is the naive take a statement like that and believe that we should lower tuition and increase the taxes on corporations.They have no idea of economics.
As far as Corporations lobbying, why shouldn't they. If as a result of their lobbying they are able to increase their profits then the investors will continue to buy the corporations shares. That may not seem relevant to you, however for those folks that either own shares, have RRSP's or participate in a pension plan and will someday collect from the Canada Pension Plan then it is very relevant. In other words the success of our corporations is relevant to 99% of Canada's population!
As far a the government owning Petro Canada or for that matter any corporation, it has been proven time and time again that politics/government and business are a terrible combination. The politicians end up appointing their buddies to management positions with little regard for their ability to manage. It's true that the government earns the profits however the profits are usually less that the profits that a comparable private corporation can earn. Governments should be managing services for citizens and setting policy, not running something that private enterprise is more capable of doing.
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That comparison doesn't put anything into perspective! It's like saying Jimmy Pattison spends as much to maintain his Yacht each month as 100 families spend on groceries..... it's totally unrelated and irrelevant.
Yeah we need to give ol' Jimmy some more tax breaks so he get a bigger yacht.
The problem with those kinds of statements is the naive take a statement like that and believe that we should lower tuition and increase the taxes on corporations.They have no idea of economics.
Keeping the electorate cloaked in ignorance and making education available only to the wealthy is really good economic policy.
As far as Corporations lobbying, why shouldn't they. If as a result of their lobbying they are able to increase their profits then the investors will continue to buy the corporations shares. That may not seem relevant to you, however for those folks that either own shares, have RRSP's or participate in a pension plan and will someday collect from the Canada Pension Plan then it is very relevant. In other words the success of our corporations is relevant to 99% of Canada's population!
You get the best government money can buy! One need not look any further than Campbell's sell out of oh, just a couple of examples- BC Rail (to his bestest buddy and fund raiser), Ruin of the river, etc.
As far a the government owning Petro Canada or for that matter any corporation, it has been proven time and time again that politics/government and business are a terrible combination. The politicians end up appointing their buddies to management positions with little regard for their ability to manage. It's true that the government earns the profits however the profits are usually less that the profits that a comparable private corporation can earn. Governments should be managing services for citizens and setting policy, not running something that private enterprise is more capable of doing.
I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE NO CORPORATE TAXES _ IT'S NOT LIKE THEY DON'T USE INFRASTRUCTURE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT! Let's all chip in to pave the streets with gold to all corporate head offices!!!
(That's what the HST is doing, like it or not- )
Oh my - We already have one of the lowest corporate tax rates in North America, but that still isn't enough. Greed and the greedy need more!
DISMISSED! ;)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
Tax rates around the world in a quick glance.
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Great link but based on levels in 2005, things have changed greatly in Canada since then. Corporate taxes aren't even close to those rates now. Here's a link for current rates : http://www.canadabusinesstax.com/corporate-income-tax-rates/
Canada's corporate taxes are one of the lowest in the world currently
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Great link but based on levels in 2005, things have changed greatly in Canada since then. Corporate taxes aren't even close to those rates now. Here's a link for current rates : http://www.canadabusinesstax.com/corporate-income-tax-rates/
Canada's corporate taxes are one of the lowest in the world currently
Corporate tax rates have a Federal and a Provincial component (just like personal tax rates). You need to add the 2 together to come up with the Canadian tax rates. You will likely have a different opinion on the statements you've made. ::)
It's also important to compare our tax rates with countries that are comparably attractive for corporations to move their businesses to. Comparing Canada's tax rate to Cameroon or Burundi is a pointless exercise.
Their are many other components that need to be considered such as materials and labor rates compared to other countries. When companies look at where to build their products they compare all the costs that go into running their business. If the costs to manufacture a product In Canada are higher than in another country, guess where the business will move. In Canada we have much higher labor costs than many other countries, so to be able to compete Canadian business's need to pay lower corporate taxes.
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Their are many other components that need to be considered such as materials and labor rates compared to other countries. When companies look at where to build their products they compare all the costs that go into running their business. If the costs to manufacture a product In Canada are higher than in another country, guess where the business will move. In Canada we have much higher labor costs than many other countries, so to be able to compete Canadian business's need to pay lower corporate taxes.
Companies locate their businesses , not where corporate taxes are slightly lower, but where their costs are lowest (labour, materials), where their suppliers are, and where their customers are because those are the factors that determine their profitability. If they aren't profitable, they don't pay corporate tax because corporate taxes are paid on profits (revenues minus expenditures). Corporate tax rates only play a role is in the distribution of profits. Profits are divided into government taxes, retained earnings (invested back into the company) and dividends to shareholders (if there are any). So cutting corporate taxes may increase the amount available for retained earnings and stock dividends but it also cuts our shared tax revenue effectively providing a taxpayer subsidy to the profits of corporations. Personally, I'm against taxpayers subsidizing businesses that aren't profitable to supposedly "create jobs", particularly multi-nationals that export many of their jobs and revenues outside Canada.
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Companies locate their businesses , not where corporate taxes are slightly lower, but where their costs are lowest (labour, materials), where their suppliers are, and where their customers are because those are the factors that determine their profitability. If they aren't profitable, they don't pay corporate tax because corporate taxes are paid on profits (revenues minus expenditures).
You forgot to add....... "If corporations are not profitable, they cease to exist, shareholders lose their investment and employees lose their jobs".
Corporate tax rates only play a role is in the distribution of profits. Profits are divided into government taxes, retained earnings (invested back into the company) and dividends to shareholders (if there are any). So cutting corporate taxes may increase the amount available for retained earnings and stock dividends but it also cuts our shared tax revenue effectively providing a taxpayer subsidy to the profits of corporations.
You're sounding like you have studied the NDP manual very well! They propose taxing the corporations because they are an easy target. When the businesses close their doors or move out of the country, the employees will blame the "greedy" corporation and not the government who increased corporate taxes. ???
Distribution of profits is the reason that businesses exist! If shareholders (and every company has at least one) do not receive a return on their investment they will not invest in the business! If no one invests in a business, the business ceases to exist! My retirement pension is a shareholder in these corporations, as is 99% of Canadian's pensions.
Corporate taxes and job losses are very closely related. Look south of the border and you'll see 3 things; high unemployment, high corporate taxes and over 3 trillion American corporate dollars that are invested outside of the US.
Personally, I'm against taxpayers subsidizing businesses that aren't profitable to supposedly "create jobs", particularly multi-nationals that export many of their jobs and revenues outside Canada.
I'm against subsidizing businesses as well. I hate the fact Chrysler and GM got big bale outs. On the positive side a lot of people continued to get a pay cheque as a result. If lower corporate taxes make this country a more attractive place to invest, then the government will generate more tax revenues as a result of the newly created jobs. As an investor that will make me happy as well. :)
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Lots of companies pay no corporate taxes AF, particularly new, growing companies that are the major source of new, well paying jobs. They make little to no profit because revenues are reinvested into debt servicing as they develop (or in many cases, fail because of poor business strategies). So changes in corporate tax rates have no effect on them. Contrary to what you claim, there is no cause and effect between job losses and corporate tax rates. Canada cut her corporate tax rate in half from the 1980's yet we lost many of our manufacturing jobs because of competitive labour markets (as did the US). It's all about international macroeconomics. We can't compete with the low standards of living in China, India, Mexico, etc. although sometimes I think some wealthy business leaders wish that.
You're far too quick throwing out your "socialist slur" AF. All the parties have serious flaws in their economic policies. NDP also wants to cut taxes on 90% of Canadian businesses (small) which is as silly as the Tory claim that corporate tax cuts = jobs. Canada's economy is still largely resource based (forestry, oil, mining, grain) and driven by international commodity prices (not corporate taxes) which we can't control.
Canada has one of the best taxation and corporate investment climates in the developed world (particularly for private Canadian companies) and we just proved it in the recession but if you add up taxes at all levels of government, our effective corporate tax rate is actually not much better than other countries. What Canada could do better, like other countries, is improving our business investment tax credits, which provide a carrot for companies to reinvest their retained earnings in company growth in Canada (R&D, modernization and Green technology, securing new export markets, etc.) rather than dividend payouts or socking it away in Treasury Bills. Think "film industry" in Toronto and Vancouver. Most of the political parties though don't talk about tax credits except for special interest groups.
But AF, I can see how if you're a pensioner surviving on stock dividend income from companies like Walmart or the Bank of whatever, corporate reinvestment rather than dividend payouts isn't in your best personal interests.
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Lots of companies pay no corporate taxes AF, particularly new, growing companies that are the major source of new, well paying jobs. They make little to no profit because revenues are reinvested into debt servicing as they develop (or in many cases, fail because of poor business strategies). So changes in corporate tax rates have no effect on them. Contrary to what you claim, there is no cause and effect between job losses and corporate tax rates. Canada cut her corporate tax rate in half from the 1980's yet we lost many of our manufacturing jobs because of competitive labour markets (as did the US). It's all about international macroeconomics. We can't compete with the low standards of living in China, India, Mexico, etc. although sometimes I think some wealthy business leaders wish that.
Just a small clarification: Revenues cannot be directly reinvested in debt servicing. Debt servicing is the result of a profitable company paying corporate taxes and using the residual to pay down it's debts. Startups do not pay taxes initially, but they were started with the intention of being profitable and having to pay taxes. Companies that do not pay taxes are not making profits and will not likely be around for a long time. All profitable (successful) companies, pay corporate taxes. Raising corporate taxes will give these corporations one more reason to move their plants out of Canada.
If your statement "there is no cause and effect between job losses and corporate tax rates." were true then why does virtually every country in the world have corporate tax rates around 30%? Why wouldn't they set them at 60% and tax their citizens less?
You're far too quick throwing out your "socialist slur" AF. All the parties have serious flaws in their economic policies. NDP also wants to cut taxes on 90% of Canadian businesses (small) which is as silly as the Tory claim that corporate tax cuts = jobs. Canada's economy is still largely resource based (forestry, oil, mining, grain) and driven by international commodity prices (not corporate taxes) which we can't control.
Canada has one of the best taxation and corporate investment climates in the developed world (particularly for private Canadian companies) and we just proved it in the recession but if you add up taxes at all levels of government, our effective corporate tax rate is actually not much better than other countries.
I wasn't aware my statement was a socialist slur..... :o I've lived through too many left wing type governments whose focus was primarily on providing social benefits with little regard for where the money to fund them was going to come from. You cannot afford a great social system without having a booming industrial sector. Relying only on our resources to provide future jobs is also very short sighted. I want my great grand children to have a place to work when we run out of the non-renewable resources. With the evolving global markets governments need to make it very attractive for businesses to invest in Canada because it is much easier to move that business today than it was 50 years ago.
What Canada could do better, like other countries, is improving our business investment tax credits, which provide a carrot for companies to reinvest their retained earnings in company growth in Canada (R&D, modernization and Green technology, securing new export markets, etc.) rather than dividend payouts or socking it away in Treasury Bills. Think "film industry" in Toronto and Vancouver. Most of the political parties though don't talk about tax credits except for special interest groups.
It is important to improve all aspects of our taxation system in order to attract and maintain jobs in Canada. Whether you provide a corporate tax cut or a business investment tax credit, they are all lower tax incentives to make it attractive for businesses to invest in Canada. Another clarification: Retained earnings are the residual profits a company has after it has paid it's corporate taxes. Because higher corporate tax rates have an impact on retained earnings, this leaves the corporation with fewer dollars to invest in the growth of it's business.
The reason corporations pay out dividends is that investors need to have a return on their investments in these businesses. If the corporation doesn't provide that return the investors will find somewhere else to invest their money. The end result is the business will die.
But AF, I can see how if you're a pensioner surviving on stock dividend income from companies like Walmart or the Bank of whatever, corporate reinvestment rather than dividend payouts isn't in your best personal interests.
Disclosure..... I am not retired. I'm a Certified Financial Planner (CFP) and work with a variety of clients in all stages of life. Most of them have a focus on saving for their retirement.
I am not against corporate reinvestment as that adds value to the balance sheet, which increases the stock price, however unless the investor is receiving a return on their investment (ie. dividend) they will look for other places to invest their money. The Canada Pension Plan (CPP) which provides retirement income to 99% of Canadian retirees, invests in a variety of companies. The CPP looks for companies that pay dividends.
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Private companies sure knew how to manage finances on Wall street, then come wailing and moaning to the taxpayer for help. No government run corporation in BC was ever as poorly managed as those that wanted to be saved on Wall street. Funny my financial planner was still touting investments that I was really leery of just before the collapse in the USA. ;D ;D Funny that he with all his expertise did not fore see what was coming. How many corporations have gone down the tube? I can name a whole bunch that took a lot of peoples money with them.
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My financial planner got dot commed. :-\ I think he went back to the Financial Planning Academy for a retrofit.
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Private companies sure knew how to manage finances on Wall street, then come wailing and moaning to the taxpayer for help. No government run corporation in BC was ever as poorly managed as those that wanted to be saved on Wall street. Funny my financial planner was still touting investments that I was really leery of just before the collapse in the USA. ;D ;D Funny that he with all his expertise did not fore see what was coming. How many corporations have gone down the tube? I can name a whole bunch that took a lot of peoples money with them.
It was mostly public companies, not private companies that mismanaged their businesses. Unfortunately a lot of people lost money in that fiasco. One of the advantages of investing in mutual funds managed by large well established investment companies is that they will not expose the investor to risks like that. Investors that lose money in situations like that usually have advisers that expose them to greater risks because they are trying to achieve unrealistic returns on their investments.
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Disclosure..... I am not retired. I'm a Certified Financial Planner (CFP) and work with a variety of clients in all stages of life. Most of them have a focus on saving for their retirement.
Is that another fancy word for a whole life insurance salesman ? ;D
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Just a small clarification: Revenues cannot be directly reinvested in debt servicing. Debt servicing is the result of a profitable company paying corporate taxes and using the residual to pay down it's debts.
I'm talking about start-ups and their start-up business costs, which can't all be written off as business expenditures...nothing to do with taxes AF.
If your statement "there is no cause and effect between job losses and corporate tax rates." were true then why does virtually every country in the world have corporate tax rates around 30%? Why wouldn't they set them at 60% and tax their citizens less?
Instead, try reading "The cost of a zero corporate tax rate" by a CCPA Senior Economist.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/the-economists/the-cost-of-a-zero-corporate-tax-rate/article1989662/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/the-economists/the-cost-of-a-zero-corporate-tax-rate/article1989662/)
Relying only on our resources to provide future jobs is also very short sighted. I want my great grand children to have a place to work when we run out of the non-renewable resources.
I agree with the desire for a diversified economy but what other sectors could step up to the plate? Manufacturing? Financial? Tourism? Salmon farming? IPPs? Nuclear power? Not likely...and that's the rub.
Another clarification: Retained earnings are the residual profits a company has after it has paid it's corporate taxes. Because higher corporate tax rates have an impact on retained earnings, this leaves the corporation with fewer dollars to invest in the growth of it's business.
Cutting federal corporate taxes by a few additional percent will have little impact on a company's bottom line (it's within their annual operating variance)...but it has a large cumulative impact on the total revenues taxpayers receive.
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Instead, try reading "The cost of a zero corporate tax rate" by a CCPA Senior Economist.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/the-economists/the-cost-of-a-zero-corporate-tax-rate/article1989662/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/economy-lab/the-economists/the-cost-of-a-zero-corporate-tax-rate/article1989662/)
I've never said there should be zero corporate tax.
However on that point I strongly believe that any form of income tax/corporate tax is a disincentive to an entrepreneurial system. People and corporations find loopholes to limit the taxes they pay and even go to extremes of tax avoidance. Income tax penalizes the people and companies that work hard and take risks in order to grow their wealth.
That's why I believe the HST is a good tax. A consumption tax like the HST is paid by everyone that spends their money, more is paid by the rich than is paid by the poor.
I agree with the desire for a diversified economy but what other sectors could step up to the plate? Manufacturing? Financial? Tourism? Salmon farming? IPPs? Nuclear power? Not likely...and that's the rub.
The point is unless we find a way to attract these businesses we are on a slippery slope relying only on our resources.
Cutting federal corporate taxes by a few additional percent will have little impact on a company's bottom line (it's within their annual operating variance)...but it has a large cumulative impact on the total revenues taxpayers receive.
That statement is just typical left wing rhetoric. You need to study some economics and less NDP propaganda.... ;D
Cutting corporate taxes by 1% means an extra 1% return for the shareholders. Shareholders pay taxes on their investment returns and they also spend money, which generates tax revenue. In the process the company has happy investors, is able to raise more capital which it invests inside Canada thereby creating more jobs ...... which generate taxes.
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That statement is just typical left wing rhetoric. You need to study some economics and less NDP propaganda.... ;D
Always with the socialst slurs AF. Your American Tea Party roots are showing in your rhetoric.
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I
Always with the socialst slurs AF. Your American Tea Party roots are showing in your rhetoric.
I prefer to think of it as "calling a spade a spade". :)
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Always with the socialst slurs AF. Your American Tea Party roots are showing in your rhetoric.
Yep. - If you don't agree, you're a nemesis to society, an idiot and need to be talked down to, because we don't understand that taxing us more is better in the long run.I'm glad I'm not alone in feeling like AF is talking to an errant child when you're not 100% in agreement with him.
Are the provinces that have the HST that far ahead economically?
How many more companies have set up shop in these bastions of "free enterprise"?
How many business interests were saved by implementation?
It's all our fault that we don't spend more time gathering crumbs at the feet of the Fraser Institute and hanging on their every word, because we know all they say is true! ::)
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That statement is just typical left wing rhetoric. You need to study some economics and less NDP propaganda....
Always with the socialst slurs AF. Your American Tea Party roots are showing in your rhetoric.
love how somehow disagrees and they are instantly a "crazy right-wing loon". ;)
as for the HST, keep it in. its for the best in the long run :) (at least for my family ;D )
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"Corporate tax rates have a Federal and a Provincial component (just like personal tax rates). You need to add the 2 together to come up with the Canadian tax rates. You will likely have a different opinion on the statements you've made. "
I stick to what I said and roll my eyes back at you ::) . Canada has one of the lowest corporate tax rates in the world. I have enjoyed how you claim everyone's left wing mentality but fail to agnowledge your far, far right wing mentality. Can I assume you are a business owner or former business owner? Calling others a spade is funny coming from a right wing spreading his propaganda from gordo's thieving liberals
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"Corporate tax rates have a Federal and a Provincial component (just like personal tax rates). You need to add the 2 together to come up with the Canadian tax rates. You will likely have a different opinion on the statements you've made. "
I stick to what I said and roll my eyes back at you ::) . Canada has one of the lowest corporate tax rates in the world. I have enjoyed how you claim everyone's left wing mentality but fail to agnowledge your far, far right wing mentality. Can I assume you are a business owner or former business owner? Calling others a spade is funny coming from a right wing spreading his propaganda from gordo's thieving liberals
You're being verbose if you don't agree........ ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg
Oh - and look here
Say it isn't so AF ;D ;D ;D
http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1412536
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Your post is verbose ::)
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I come from a long line of verbosity ;) - Funny how all those wonderful guys that were going to pave our streets with gold and the kazillions of dollars that were going to rain from the sky once this "revenue neutral" tax was imposed just haven't shown up yet. I'm going back out on the doorstep to watch some more. It is going to happen soon isn't it?
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* Christy Clark Premier – A reflection on and dishonest election!
* The Liberals Lying Again on the HST & Restaurant Meals
http://standupbc.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/christy-clark-premier-%e2%80%93-a-reflection-on-and-dishonest-election/
http://standupbc.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/the-liberals-lying-again-on-the-hst-restaurant-meals/
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* Christy Clark Premier – A reflection on and dishonest election!
* The Liberals Lying Again on the HST & Restaurant Meals
http://standupbc.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/christy-clark-premier-%e2%80%93-a-reflection-on-and-dishonest-election/
http://standupbc.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/the-liberals-lying-again-on-the-hst-restaurant-meals/
Gee Whiz Chris- the leftist rags again? What are they basing that stuff on? Facts?Truth? ;)You know the only place that truth flows openly and freely is the Fraser Institute. And the provincial Liberals. ;D
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* Christy Clark Premier – A reflection on and dishonest election!
* The Liberals Lying Again on the HST & Restaurant Meals
http://standupbc.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/christy-clark-premier-%e2%80%93-a-reflection-on-and-dishonest-election/
http://standupbc.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/the-liberals-lying-again-on-the-hst-restaurant-meals/
"A reflection on and dishonest election!" .... That article is just sore loser talk.. Fact is Christy won the election because more people voted for her than for the NDP candidate!
Statistics Canada has a report that indicates that restaurant sales in Canada are up by 3% over the last year. It indicated that restaurant sales in BC increased by 3% as well.......
Doesn't sound to me like the HST has had a negative impact on the restaurant industry in BC. Once you take into account the tougher drinking and driving law that was introduced (which likely has has a negative effect on the restaurant business) it sounds like our restaurant industry is doing fine.
Mind you it does cost more to eat out........ :(
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From my friend Bill. ;D ;D
Average BC family pays $1,208 per year more in HST - not $350 as reported
DELTA – (Saturday, May 14, 2011) – Fight HST Leader and former BC Premier Bill Vander Zalm says the BC Government’s “Independent Panel” report on the Harmonized Sales Tax seriously underestimates the high cost of the HST on average BC families.
“The actual tax increase under the HST for an average family is closer to $1208, not $350 as they reported,” Vander Zalm explained.
Vander Zalm says the government-appointed “Independent Panel” presented the HST in the best possible light in each of its calculations, severely diminishing the “real” impact of the tax on families by over 300%.
Fight HST says there are a number of other flaws, including the Panel discounting the impact of the HST by estimating that 90% of HST rebates received by businesses will be passed on to consumers.
“The report says that business will pass 90% of their HST rebates on to consumers in the form of lower prices. 90%! That is a ridiculous number given that we’ve seen prices go up in BC under the HST, not down,” said Vander Zalm.
Vander Zalm says the report contains several flaws:
* The report incorrectly concludes that consumers in BC have a net additional tax burden of $1.33 billion when in fact it is $2.6 billion. After deducting the $400 million of income tax measures, the net HST cost to British Columbians is $2.2 billion - or $1,208 per average family – not $350 as reported.
* The Panel’s figure of a 17% net increase in taxable expenditures leaves out the fact that HST is now applied to much higher cost items such as services which are labour based, so that the overall increase to consumers is 59% higher than under PST, even though the HST is added to only 20% more items.
* The 24,000 jobs estimated to be created over ten years will therefore cost British Columbians approximately $100,000 each.
* The report shows PST previously paid by BC consumers as $3.81 billion and by business as $850 million when in fact it was $2.53 billion consumers and $2.13 billion by business. (Figures were adjusted to include the 90% “savings” from business again)
* The report contradicts itself by saying the HST will stimulate business, yet if their calculation of 90% of savings passed on to consumers were correct, after tax HST savings to business would leave only 7% for reinvestment, increased wages or shareholder distribution.
* The report claims 80% of household spending is taxed the same as it was before the HST. But taxable expenditures before and after the HST show 37% of taxable expenditures are newly taxed under HST for a net increase of 59% in taxes under the HST.
“Where the Panel did get it right was in their assertion that the HST will not produce dramatic results overnight. This is actually the understatement of the century, since any net benefits from the HST over the next ten years are indiscernible from normal growth, and fall into the margin of mere rounding errors,” said Vander Zalm.
Vander Zalm says the Government Panel’s report is even more devastating to the BC Liberal government than previously thought, since its estimated meager benefits are based on a “best case scenario” with unrealistically optimistic assumptions about “cost savings” passed on to consumers.
“We know now that the HST does not work. We can see it in the report and we can see it in our daily lives under this tax. Unemployment is up, prices are up, and the economy is down. Former Premier Gordon Campbell made a big mistake in taking on the HST to try to cover a deficit hole. The long term costs are extremely damaging to BC,” said Vander Zalm.
“It’s time for the new Premier Christy Clark to fess up and admit that it was a bad idea. In light of this report and in light of the serious damage the tax is doing to our economy and business, how can Premier Clark and Finance Minister Falcon continue to take the same positions as their predecessors Gordon Campbell and Colin Hansen?”
“We know the BC Liberals are very close with big business. We know the HST will provide a windfall profit to the big corporations that operate here. But the long term economic damage to BC is not worth it.”
“We urge every British Columbian to vote “YES” to extinguish the HST and return to the PST and GST with the same exemptions as before. It will save jobs, businesses, and help get our economy back on track again,” Vander Zalm concluded.
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..... I thought Bill was on vacation. ;D
Can somebody provide an update on how the recall campaign is going?
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..... I thought Bill was on vacation. ;D
Can somebody provide an update on how the recall campaign is going?
The recall will take place at the next election. ;D ;D ;D
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Good one, Chris!! ;D ;D
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A letter to Mr. Vanderzalm - UTube version.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nZXu3LXNwEg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nZXu3LXNwEg)
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I like it... ;D
I wuz wondering whether anyone else did the math! Besides - isn't it a fact that 79% of all statistics are made up??
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;D ;D
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--even good stats usually only predicted to be correct 19 times out of 20
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From standup BC
Liberals Lying Again on HST Restaurant Meals
Posted on May 14, 2011
by Standup and Speakout BC| 19 Comments
The battle on the HST is starting to heat up again. Again we hear miss truths – today we were linked to another “highly controlled” town hall meeting with Kevin Falcon in relation to the HST.
Falcon made comments in relation to the restaurant industry and stated that this industry lobby is saying sky is falling “our industry is not recovering if you do get rid-off this additional costs (HST)” Falcon’s response “that if you go to London, Rome or Paris they are known for their restaurants they have VAT (similar to HST) and their tax is more then double the rate of the HST…. Our HST is the lowest in Canada and is way lower then in Europe and somehow their industry is thriving” He also indicated that our HST Tax is lower then the one in Europe on restaurant meals. We ask you are we being snowed again?
Now Minister Falcon did not get his fact right – and may be a Minister should read up on the real facts which are only one click away and he is advised to go to the BBC web and read the following: ”The price of eating out in France should be set to fall as a government tax cut comes into effect.” Value-added tax (VAT) has been reduced from 19.6% to 5.5%, in an attempt to increase consumer spending and create thousands of jobs. French eateries have been badly hit by the global recession and by a smoking ban introduced in 2008. From Bloomberg French VAT Cut Boosts Restaurant Trade “Dropping the sales tax to 5.5% from 19.9% is expected to make dining out more affordable and help eateries survive” and from Rome: “Milan restaurant prices are subject to IVA (value added tax) at 10% but this is always included within the prices given” see World Travel Guide
Clearly the government is back on its tack of deceit and misleading the voters and Mr. Falcon is well advised to research his facts first before spouting of nonsense in so called town hall propaganda meetings.
And also, what has Europe to do with BC, Europe has a different economy and different social safety net. Now if Mr Falcon wants us to become like Europe – then he must join a different party, as the neoliberals certainly are not coming close to Europe. We even begin to wonder if he ever has been to Europe. But then again lets not give him any ideas on your tax payer dollars expense
Talking about the HST Propaganda
The government has started to spend $5.0 Million to tell you that the HST is good for you and what government spending priorities should be. Forgets to tell that the HST is revenue neutral and that not a single penny goes to health care, education or social services. Or that all the HST collected will go as a rebate to the big corporations under the excuse of job creation. Job creation do not let me laugh – more part time and lower paid jobs! Oh yes the opposing forces get $500,000 to spend and third party pro HST forces (yes big business) they can spend unlimited amounts to improve 12% to their bottom line while not improving productivity. I guess their shareholders will be happy as their dividends will increase.
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I like to know who is writing an article as everyone usually puts their bias in what they write..... so I googled Standup BC and the first thing that came up was the definition for "standup comedy".
Considering what Standup BC is publishing it's probably appropriate..... :D
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http://www.bclocalnews.com/opinion/122030229.html?c=y&curSection=/fraser_valley/theprogress&curTitle=BC+Opinion&bc09=true (http://www.bclocalnews.com/opinion/122030229.html?c=y&curSection=/fraser_valley/theprogress&curTitle=BC+Opinion&bc09=true)
VICTORIA – By now you’ve probably seen part of the B.C. government’s “stick man” ad campaign to raise awareness of the harmonized sales tax.
Stick men, or rather stick persons, sort out conflicting claims about the tax by going to the B.C. government’s website to get an accurate summary of what is and isn’t costing them more.
Later versions will no doubt feature stick persons checking their mail for brochures offering arguments for and against the HST, and of course, those all-important mail-in ballots that will arrive in June.
This is an urgent pre-requisite to an informed vote. Anyone who listens in to a telephone town hall or phone-in show, or gets reader feedback such as I receive, knows that the basic facts are still widely misunderstood.
So what does the NDP opposition focus on? The ads cost $5 million, grumbles NDP finance critic Bruce Ralston. Add that to town halls and mailers and the referendum funding boils down to $7 million for pro-HST and a mere $250,000 for the FightHST effort.
This is a classic “straw man” argument, where one sets up a false premise and then knocks it down. The ads do not advocate, they merely inform.
Stikine MLA Doug Donaldson propped up the NDP’s oldest scarecrow, that big “Liberal donor corporations” are the main beneficiaries of the HST. This is a vital point for rural B.C., which depends on resource industries with huge machinery investments, and he has it exactly wrong.
In fact the entire ‘big business benefits most from HST’ narrative is false.
Vancouver tax lawyer David Robertson points out that this is one of the “myths and misrepresentations” propagated by Bill Vander Zalm, who has effectively set NDP tax policy since their limping retreat on the carbon tax.
In 24 pages, Robertson has written the clearest analysis I’ve seen so far, including a thorough demolition of Vander Zalm's crude scare campaign known as FightHST, which has singled out banks and large resource companies.
Robertson notes that banks are actually worse off.
“…unlike most businesses, banks, financial institutions and insurance companies cannot recover GST/HST they pay on expenses,” he writes. They actually pay more under HST than they did under the old provincial sales tax (PST).
As for FightHST’s other specified villains, “large corporations” and “large resource companies,” their machinery and production equipment were long ago exempted from sales tax. No change there.
“What the PST legislation did not contain were PST exemptions aimed specifically at small, independent businesses,” Robertson writes.
“So construction workers like welders, plumbers, electricians and other tradespersons had to pay an additional seven per cent PST on their work trucks, tools and equipment that they used to earn a living; retailers and corner store operators had to pay an additional seven per cent on their shelving, refrigerators and cash registers; accountants and other professionals had to pay PST on their office furniture, computers and software; truckers had to pay an additional seven per cent PST on their truck tractors and trailers …” and so forth.
This is what the HST fixes.
Obviously, Big Labour doesn’t like all these independent contractors. Therefore the NDP must also “fight” HST.
I’ve mentioned before that the NDP-Vander Zalm axis of nonsense wants to deprive the poor of a modest tax shift in their favour, paid for by voluntary purchases of more affluent consumers.
I’ve talked about the trend towards self-employment and small business as the Canadian economy adapts in a fast-changing world. You may not like that trend, and you may wish that everyone could have a union job with an employer-subsidized pension.
That’s not what is happening today.
Tom Fletcher is legislative reporter and columnist for Black Press and BCLocalnews.com
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http://www.vancouversun.com/news/thewest/Liberals+lower+rate+offer+rebates+hike+corporate+taxes/4838204/story.html (http://www.vancouversun.com/news/thewest/Liberals+lower+rate+offer+rebates+hike+corporate+taxes/4838204/story.html)
Victoria, B.C. — The B.C. government is promising to cut the 12 per cent harmonized sales tax by two percentage points, provide rebates to millions of British Columbians and hike corporate tax rates in a last-ditch attempt to save the unpopular tax from defeat in a summer referendum.
Finance Minister Kevin Falcon unveiled long-awaited “fixes” to the tax Wednesday, including cutting the provincial portion one per cent on July 1, 2012, and another per cent in 2014.
Families with children under 18, along with low-income seniors, will receive one-time payments from government worth $175 per child. The payments are designed to eliminate $350 in additional sales tax families currently pay under the HST, reducing costs by $470 and leaving an average family paying $120 less than under the old provincial sales tax, said Falcon. The government will spend $200 million to send out the cheques, which it portrayed as a “bridge” payment to the first HST rate cuts.
The promises are contingent on the public voting to keep the tax in a summer mail-in referendum, Falcon said. The finance minister called his proposal to save the tax “bold, responsive, fair and balanced.”
“On average all families will be better off under the improved HST,” he said, while again arguing that reverting back to the PST would be “a terrible step backwards” for the provincial economy.
The government had said each percentage point reduction of the HST would forgo around $850 million in revenue.
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http://www.vancouversun.com/news/thewest/Liberals+lower+rate+offer+rebates+hike+corporate+taxes/4838204/story.html (http://www.vancouversun.com/news/thewest/Liberals+lower+rate+offer+rebates+hike+corporate+taxes/4838204/story.html)
Victoria, B.C. — The B.C. government is promising to cut the 12 per cent harmonized sales tax by two percentage points, provide rebates to millions of British Columbians and hike corporate tax rates in a last-ditch attempt to save the unpopular tax from defeat in a summer referendum.
Finance Minister Kevin Falcon unveiled long-awaited “fixes” to the tax Wednesday, including cutting the provincial portion one per cent on July 1, 2012, and another per cent in 2014.
Families with children under 18, along with low-income seniors, will receive one-time payments from government worth $175 per child. The payments are designed to eliminate $350 in additional sales tax families currently pay under the HST, reducing costs by $470 and leaving an average family paying $120 less than under the old provincial sales tax, said Falcon. The government will spend $200 million to send out the cheques, which it portrayed as a “bridge” payment to the first HST rate cuts.
The promises are contingent on the public voting to keep the tax in a summer mail-in referendum, Falcon said. The finance minister called his proposal to save the tax “bold, responsive, fair and balanced.”
“On average all families will be better off under the improved HST,” he said, while again arguing that reverting back to the PST would be “a terrible step backwards” for the provincial economy.
The government had said each percentage point reduction of the HST would forgo around $850 million in revenue.
What's that rancid odour? That stench that permeates your nose and makes your stomach uncertain? Surely, it's not just one thing that creates that much malodour? It takes more than one thing......
I KNOW! I KNOW! IT'S THE REEK OF LIBERAL DESPAIR AND BULL BISCUITS! BOTH AT ONCE! ;D ;D ;D
Despite the attempts with the cosmetics, it's still lipstick on a pig. Perhaps some eyeliner instead?
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/Lipstick-On-A-Pig.jpg)
Had they been the prudent money managers they claim they were , they wouldn't have needed the federal bribe money to unbalance the budget. Now they're painted in a corner with slow drying paint and it's blackmail/bribe time - with my own money.
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Why dont we just wait til the next election, seeing its around the corner, Im interested to see what the dippers platform is and how much its gonna cost. Betting the NDP will spend another 4 years in opposition. :D
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http://www.policynote.ca/the-smart-tax-alliance-non-partisan-really/
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http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/
Far more eloquent than I am:
Those who don’t like the Hated Sales Tax complain it has all been based on a whole series of lies to the taxpayers:, the government lied when it said it was not on the table before the election; the government lied when it said it would be revenue neutral; the government lied when it said the HST would create 100,000 jobs; business lied when it said when it said the savings would flow back to the consumers in lower prices; and business is currently lying when it says taxpayers will “save” $120 under the new HST formula …when truth be told, the “average family” won’t “save” but ONLY be ripped off an EXTRA $230 by the tax, instead of the $350 a year the independent panel has estimated.
But no one has addressed what I see as the BIGGEST LIE put forward by the pro-HST forces.
That is; yes, the HST shifts the tax burden to consumers from business … but that is good, because business creates jobs and we will all benefit from that in the long run.
That is a TOTAL LIE!
Business does not create jobs: CONSUMERS CREATE JOBS!
Think about it. There is not a single product produced, mined, timbered, manufactured, grown or service created, marketed or sold WITHOUT consumer demand. Yes, CONSUMER demand!
Without consumers, there is NO business, no jobs, no revenues, no profits, no Whistler chalets, no Mercedes, no executive bonuses, no Vancouver Club memberships or Yacht Club slips.
And yet, if you listen to the governments, the HST advocates, corporate benefactors, and all their media mouthpieces, the message spun right from the beginning has been that business creates jobs. NOT!!!
Ironically, it’s those asked to bear the burden who actually create ALL those jobs that business needs in order to sustain itself and expand.
If the government really wanted to stimulate the economy …and create jobs…the solution would have been to give CONSUMERS the tax break, so they can go out and spend more, buy more, create demand …and create jobs as companies expand to meet that increased demand. That’s how the economy REALLY works. Not by cutting the amount in consumers’ pockets: to the contrary.
The truth is the HST is designed only to put more cash into the pockets of big business, corporate executives and shareholders. Many of us, of course, are shareholders through investments or RRSPs and we would benefit. But let’s admit it: the HST’s PRIME GOAL is not to create jobs; it’s to make investors even richer, even faster. And reward the top executives with even more huge perks and pay, for jobs well done.
As for the argument you are now hearing quite often “business needs this tax break to be competitive” … that’s one of the oldest cliches in the BC Liberal and federal Tory repetoires.
In fact, even under Clark’s plan to still stick the taxpapers with an extra $230 in taxes under the “new, improved HST” , they say corporate taxes will go up …. not back up to where they were five years ago, when their other breaks began … but up two per cent, and likely only TEMPORARILY. And what they do NOT say that on the very same day business will pay the higher corporate tax, the federal corporate tax will drop one-and-a-half percent: so their net increase is only half of a per cent.
Whoop-t-doo! While working families will continue to get hosed with an “average” $230 .. on top of every other fee increase and cost the government and its agencies have pi9led on is in the past 10 years.
Where is the fairness? How does it HELP the economy and CREATE JOBS by sucking more and more taxes from consumers …lowering, not increasing, their buying power.
Business has already enjoyed a number of tax cuts, grants, regulatory relief over the past few years (especially the film industry, by the way, one of the loudest corporate beggars that almost annually plays the “need a bigger break game” …pitting one province against the other, one state against the other, one country against the other… and then laughs all the way to the banks with profits in BILLIONS!).
It’s time for the consumers to get the tax break …so we have the money to actually buy the goods produced by business and maybe, occasionally, even attend a movie produced by the heavily subsidized film industry, where i have yet to see prices come down, thanks to their killing under HST savings, or any other freebies they’ve extorted out of government, here and around the world.
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It's sad how the anti-HST crowd freely tosses around the word lie, when they realize that their argument is weak. Then to counter, they come up with ridiculous statements like this one!
"Business does not create jobs: CONSUMERS CREATE JOBS!"
Businesses are the ones that hire people, not consumers. Businesses pay the salaries, not the consumers. Businesses invest the money to start up their enterprise, not the consumers. Statements like the above show that the writer doesn't have a clue about business. A large investment of money is required to start a business, and probably 50% of businesses fail. As a result a lot of individuals lose their personal savings.
The truth is Businesses create the jobs!
Individuals (with money) do a lot of market research to determine what the consumer wants to spend their money on. They calculate all the costs (materials, facilities and taxes to name a few) that go into making the product or service and determine whether it is worthwhile starting a business. They will not invest in a business that won't give them a profit (just like an individual won't deposit money in a bank if they are not paid any interest).
Then and only then will these individuals invest (risk) their personal money in a business. In the process the business hires people (creates jobs).
If the business did their market research well, and their actual costs are close to their projected costs, and the consumer buys the product or service, they have a successful business. As they grow they hire more people. If at any point in time the consumer finds the product cheaper somewhere else, the business stops being successful. Unless it can make adjustments in the product or costs, the business closes or moves to some place where they can be successful. The jobs disappear.
At no point in time does the consumer invest in anything more than the product they purchase. They typically could care less whether the business succeeds or fails, because they have no vested interest. One of governments roles is to look after business interests. Without business there won't be any consumers, because there won't be any jobs.
Unfortunately until the anti-HST crowd sees their jobs disappearing, they won't recognize that a competitive tax structure is an essential component of a healthy business and a healthy BC economy.
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HOW IS THIS CANADA POST STRIKE GOING TO PLAY OUT WITH THE MAIL IN BALLOTS?
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What a bunch of Crap, keep spoutin your miss truths alwaysfishin, I am gettin tired of your stupid rhetoric. Novabonker is correct it's the nitch or the lack of product/services that create the business opportunities that create business and jobs. If what you are saying is correct then just come here to Merritt and fill your gas tank, The business creators that provide those crappy minimum wage jobs that you are constantly spoutin off about are charging $135.00 a litre for gas at the pump here in Merritt, yet if you go to Kamloops its $110.00/Litre, wheres the justice of supply and demand and competition between the oil companys that your philosophy says is friggin gospel. You seem to think that the HST lie is sad, well Im sure that you must realise that it is sad as the voting public has been lied to numerous times, to the point where we are loosing our demoratict ability to make an informed decision because of the lack of truth supplied by the elected government or the press that is supposed to report accurately and which in most cases the truth is ignored or not even mentioned in the press ( just look at the Run of the Rivers projects and all of the wilderness damage its done and the financial overcost to BC Hydro).... As for individuals risking there savings when starting a business, you make them out to be heroes or something, we all know that in any new business there is a risk and nothing ventured is nothing gained. As well some people say that big business will leave this province of BC if they dont get the tax breaks that the HST provides them, well I say good riddance to those corporations as this will in all likelihood open the doors and pave the way for more small local business that will keep the profits here in BC as wll as decent paying jobs....
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What a bunch of Crap, keep spoutin your miss truths alwaysfishin, I am gettin tired of your stupid rhetoric. Novabonker is correct it's the nitch or the lack of product/services that create the business opportunities that create business and jobs. If what you are saying is correct then just come here to Merritt and fill your gas tank, The business creators that provide those crappy minimum wage jobs that you are constantly spoutin off about are charging $135.00 a litre for gas at the pump here in Merritt, yet if you go to Kamloops its $110.00/Litre, wheres the justice of supply and demand and competition between the oil companys that your philosophy says is friggin gospel. You seem to think that the HST lie is sad, well Im sure that you must realise that it is sad as the voting public has been lied to numerous times, to the point where we are loosing our demoratict ability to make an informed decision because of the lack of truth supplied by the elected government or the press that is supposed to report accurately and which in most cases the truth is ignored or not even mentioned in the press ( just look at the Run of the Rivers projects and all of the wilderness damage its done and the financial overcost to BC Hydro).... As for individuals risking there savings when starting a business, you make them out to be heroes or something, we all know that in any new business there is a risk and nothing ventured is nothing gained. As well some people say that big business will leave this province of BC if they dont get the tax breaks that the HST provides them, well I say good riddance to those corporations as this will in all likelihood open the doors and pave the way for more small local business that will keep the profits here in BC as wll as decent paying jobs....
... Unfortunately your thought process is delusional. You probably can relate to the following article.....
Selling HST to the ‘me’ generation
VICTORIA – Even if all you care about is your own wallet, the harmonized sales tax just became an offer you shouldn’t refuse.
Premier Christy Clark promised a “bold” fix for the HST, and she delivered. For months I have been arguing that the only way to overcome the wave of rejection caused by the panicked introduction of the HST is to offer a rate cut. I expected one per cent.
Now if you vote to keep it, a second one-per-cent reduction will be largely financed by reversing some of the B.C. Liberals’ business tax cuts of recent years. It not only sweetens the deal for consumers, it’s great politics.
First, let’s look at it from a selfish, short-term perspective, the way some readers loudly remind me they view the world. If you vote next month to go back to the provincial sales tax, the 12-per-cent PST-GST on goods that you probably didn’t notice before will continue. If you have kids under 18 or are a senior living on less than $40,000 a year, you will be saying no to a $175-per-person bonus cheque.
If you only care about yourself, you won’t care about the loss of HST credits to the poorest people in B.C. You won’t care about the province repaying Ottawa’s transition fund, or rebuilding a B.C. sales tax department to force business to convert their billing systems again. You won’t care about the competitive advantage given to Ontario, unless it costs you your job.
When the B.C. government of the day has to cut services to pay for this disastrous reversal, you’ll denounce them for doing what you told them to do. You will get the government you deserve, which may include a PST extended to restaurant meals or haircuts, because the money has to come from somewhere.
When Clark’s HST “fix” was unveiled, it was the NDP’s turn to panic. They have painted themselves into a corner, and now face the prospect of arguing for a return to an archaic sales tax with a higher rate.
And once again, Bill Vander Zalm and Chris Delaney tour B.C. in their Fight HST conspiracy clown car, refueled by $250,000 of public funds to campaign in the referendum.
Their campaign of fear and ignorance is encountering heavy resistance at university and college campuses, however, as tax experts fact-check their claims on the spot. (They’ve added “rallies” in an effort to keep fear alive.)
Delaney still raves about Europe being the cause of all this alleged human misery with their insidious Value Added Tax. Vander Zalm continues to mutter about a plot to establish world government through carbon taxes and the HST.
It would be nice if the NDP-Fight HST crowd were concerned about the wave of retiring baby boomers that is starting to wash across the country. But they’re not.
There are changes happening now in the B.C. economy that 1960s socialism and 1980s populism are not equipped to handle. The living standard of our children is going to be determined by how we deal with our aging, globalizing population, and this is one reason to understand a shift to consumption taxes.
Fourteen months ago I wrote that more U.S. states are joining Washington, Hawaii and others with sales taxes on services as well as goods. Robert Kleine, treasurer for Michigan, explained it this way:
“The basic thing is that we need to update our tax structure. We’ve got a 20th-century tax structure based on a different sort of economy. The tax base doesn’t grow as the economy grows.”
Tom Fletcher is legislative reporter and columnist for Black Press and BCLocalnews.com
http://www.bclocalnews.com/fraser_valley/theprogress/opinion/122878154.html (http://www.bclocalnews.com/fraser_valley/theprogress/opinion/122878154.html)
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Businesses are the ones that hire people, not consumers. Businesses pay the salaries, not the consumers. Businesses invest the money to start up their enterprise, not the consumers. Statements like the above show that the writer doesn't have a clue about business. A large investment of money is required to start a business, and probably 50% of businesses fail. As a result a lot of individuals lose their personal savings.
The truth is Businesses create the jobs!
If this were true than anyone with a little start up cash could create a business. Nova is accurate we he points out that without the demand for the goods or service, there would be no business. If you take cash out of the hands of consumers, then businesses downsize and close. They do not start up. They do not hire new staff. Without consumers, there is no money for the business to pay the salaries. The reason 50% of business fail is because they start with the premise that businesses are the ones that hire people, not consumers. That is a recipe for failure.
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If this were true than anyone with a little start up cash could create a business. Nova is accurate we he points out that without the demand for the goods or service, there would be no business. If you take cash out of the hands of consumers, then businesses downsize and close. They do not start up. They do not hire new staff. Without consumers, there is no money for the business to pay the salaries. The reason 50% of business fail is because they start with the premise that businesses are the ones that hire people, not consumers. That is a recipe for failure.
We're talking semantics here. Everyone needs each other.
Without successful businesses there are no jobs. Without jobs consumers can't consume. It's like arguing the chicken or the egg....
The anti-HST crowd is pushing the concept that the consumer is all you need and as a result business exists. They are ignoring the fact that business requires investment and investment only exists if it can profit.
I'm saying that government through taxation tries to provide a balance of generating revenue yet not overly stressing either the consumer or the business. The HST gets it right, particularly at 10% which is a 17% discount from the old PST GST system.
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Oddly enough, I've talked to people in the same line as mine , and everyone of us, from the supply chain to those of us on the ground have seen anything from 15 to 30% drop in business since implementation.
We're talking semantics here. Everyone needs each other. Until one side gets financed by the other
Without successful businesses there are no jobs. Without jobs consumers can't consume. It's like arguing the chicken or the egg....
The anti-HST crowd is pushing the concept that the consumer is all you need and as a result business exists. They are ignoring the fact that business requires investment and investment only exists if it can profit.
REPEAT - If you're unable to make a profit from the way you plan your business under the present structure, get a job.You know, one of those part time things that keep the real numbers low, the kind that pay that minimum wage.
I'm saying that government through taxation tries to provide a balance of generating revenue yet not overly stressing either the consumer or the business. The HST gets it right, particularly at 10% which is a 17% discount from the old PST GST system.
Government needs to learn how to live within the vast amounts it takes in, like the citizens do. Apparently, the Lower Mainland is in for another carbon tax to cover the Evergreen line. WHOOPEE! At what point does the ATM run out of cash?
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... Unfortunately your thought process is delusional. You probably can relate to the following article.....
And when I (or anyone else)don't agree with your ,um, rhetoric we're delusional or in my case verbose. Do you want cream and sugar in your vat of hypocrisy?
http://www.publiceyeonline.com/
Yesterday, we exclusively reported the province's $5 million harmonized sales tax "information campaign" won't include any advertisements promoting the positives of returning to a provincial sales tax, even though it now features a commercial touting the HST's benefits. The reason for that omission: in an interview Finance Minister Kevin Falcon - who earlier promised not to run a "persuasion campaign" - said "there isn't any positives of moving back." As a result, New Democrat leader Adrian Dix is calling for those ads to pulled to "ensure that that money goes where it belongs: to B.C. classrooms, to B.C. hospitals, to people with developmental disabilities," raising the issue in question period today.
Down the page a bit:
On May 12, Finance Minister Kevin Falcon told reporters the government's $5 new million harmonized sales tax advertising campaign would be an "information campaign" not a "persuasion campaign." A few weeks later, the government rolled out a commercial stating the "HST reduces bureaucracy and small business costs." But, in an interview with Public Eye today, Mr. Falcon said the government isn't going to be running any commercials promoting the positives of returning to a provincial sales tax because there aren't any. So doesn't that mean the government is running a persuasion campaign? In response, the finance minister told us other ads will point out "some prices are going up too. We're not pretending in those ads that everything comes down. I think those ads are informative. And I would argue I think they're balanced." Specifically, Mr. Falcon referenced an ad that will show how a candy bar is pricier under the harmonized sales tax while baby diapers are cheaper.
Soooo- Our money gets used as a sales pitch.What happened to the non biased advertising? Typical Liberal BS- AGAIN- the "We Say One Thing, Expect The Opposite" party.
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Alwaysdelusional is got most of his "facts" from second hand marijuana encounters. :)
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Oddly enough, I've talked to people in the same line as mine , and everyone of us, from the supply chain to those of us on the ground have seen anything from 15 to 30% drop in business since implementation.
I see it differently.... Coincidental to the introduction of the HST a greater percentage of the people in BC are taking off their shoes before walking on their carpets. That's why fewer of them are calling you to get their carpets cleaned. :D
I hate when people walk in my house and leave their shoes on!!!
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Alwaysdelusional is got most of his "facts" from second hand marijuana encounters. :)
What is marijuana???
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The HST gets it right, particularly at 10% which is a 17% discount from the old PST GST system.
Isn't a 10% HST a direct result of the anti-HST Campaign?
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The 5 million dollar stick men have not convinced me to change my mind. ??? :o ;D
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The 5 million dollar stick men have not convinced me to change my mind. ??? :o ;D
Sorry Chris, there is a limit on how much money us taxpayers are willing to spend to help the dark side see the light.... ;D
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Isn't a 10% HST a direct result of the anti-HST Campaign?
Sure, why not take the credit......
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I see it differently.... Coincidental to the introduction of the HST a greater percentage of the people in BC are taking off their shoes before walking on their carpets. That's why fewer of them are calling you to get their carpets cleaned. :D
I hate when people walk in my house and leave their shoes on!!!
I'm glad you find amusement in others having problems.Sorta reflects on your character one would think- you must find skid row a hoot. First off, I'm not a one trick pony. I also sell and install flooring as well as do water damage restorations- other than emergency services, it's all way off. I've talked to wholesalers, retailers, union installers, non union, and , yes, even the lowly cleaners (who actually work and damned hard instead of leeches , oh, let's say financial planners who are really gamblers with others money :o) AND THEY'RE ALL OFF .
And as a footnote as it were, I'll give you some free professional advice. Have people wipe they're feet well before they walk in. Otherwise,they're smearing the sweat and body oils from the soles of their socks all over your carpet. Sniff the sole of your sock after wearing them all day. YUMMY!
Try not to be so condescending AF- It does little for you. and makes you look pompous.
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I'm glad you find amusement in others having problems.Sorta reflects on your character one would think- you must find skid row a hoot. First off, I'm not a one trick pony. I also sell and install flooring as well as do water damage restorations- other than emergency services, it's all way off. I've talked to wholesalers, retailers, union installers, non union, and , yes, even the lowly cleaners (who actually work and damned hard instead of leeches , oh, let's say financial planners who are really gamblers with others money :o) AND THEY'RE ALL OFF .
And as a footnote as it were, I'll give you some free professional advice. Have people wipe they're feet well before they walk in. Otherwise,they're smearing the sweat and body oils from the soles of their socks all over your carpet. Sniff the sole of your sock after wearing them all day. YUMMY!
Try not to be so condescending AF- It does little for you. and makes you look pompous.
I see I hit a sensitive nerve..... :(
Just to be clear, no personal offense was intended and I'm sorry you took my joke that way.
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I'm sure there's many who find little humour in family business's struggling and going under because of poor government policy that negatively affects their business. Look at the amount of equipment on Craigslist selling for pennies on the dollar - see if your stand up gets much ha ha there. But we can always eat cake when we have no bread. ::)
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Look at the amount of equipment on Craigslist selling for pennies on the dollar ......
Now all of the equipment sold for pennies on the dollar on Craigslist is the result of the HST??? Now that statement is totally ridiculous! (notice I didn't suggest it was humorous) ;D
I even question your earlier statement: "Oddly enough, I've talked to people in the same line as mine , and everyone of us, from the supply chain to those of us on the ground have seen anything from 15 to 30% drop in business since implementation.".
The BC economy has grown more than 3% this year (since the introduction of the HST) and you suggest your industries sales are down 30%?? Even restaurant sales (which should have been hit hard by the HST) are up year over year in spite of it.
The studies I have read on the effects of the HST indicate that the HST has had some effect on the economy in BC, and for that reason the government is making adjustments by lowering the HST rate from 12% to 10% and providing families with young children a cheque for $175 per person to offset the increased costs. They are also increasing taxes for business by 2% to "take back" some of the savings they are getting as a result of the HST.
I understand you have a hate on for the Liberal government and anything related to it, including the HST, and you are free to feel that way. However if you post nonsense that I find either humorous or just nonsense I will comment on it.
It is after all a public forum.
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The BC economy has grown more than 3% this year (since the introduction of the HST) and you suggest your industries sales are down 30%??
Well...given the BC economy is in recovery from a global downturn, it really had no where to go but up. In fact, the growth in the later part of 2010 (post HST implementation) has been described as "choppy" by analysts:
Overall, the second half of 2010 was choppy and quite weak for both the BC and Canadian economies, especially considering the magnitude of the 2008-09 downturn. It is worth noting the Index is only now returning to its pre-recession levels, underscoring the fact that, in common with the rest of North America, there is still a fair amount of slack in the BC economy.
It could be said that the modest growth was in spite of the implementation of the HST.
Even restaurant sales (which should have been hit hard by the HST) are up year over year in spite of it.
Well...given the HST has been around less than a year, I am not sure how you can say that restaurant sales are up "year over year" in spite of the HST. At any rate, it appears the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association would disagree with you AF:
* Contrary to the report from the Independent Panel on the HST, which relied on preliminary Statscan data, restaurant sales in B.C. were flat (-0.1%) between July 2010 and January 2011, compared to a 1.7% increase for all of Canada. Excluding British Columbia, sales in the rest of Canada rose 2.0%.
A survey of CRFA members conducted in March, 2011 found that many restaurant operators are experiencing more dramatic effects:
* Nearly nine in 10 (87%) respondents reported a drop in sales since HST took effect, with an average decrease of 15% between July 2010 and Jan. 2011 compared to a year earlier.
* In the same survey, 68% of B.C. restaurateurs said they will vote against HST as it is currently structured in the upcoming HST referendum.
“Our members will be disappointed that today’s announcement contains no sector specific measures to reduce the unique negative impact of the tax on BC’s restaurant industry,” says Mark von Schellwitz, CRFA Vice President, Western Canada. “Today’s announcement does nothing to convince more restaurant operators to support the HST.”
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Well...given the HST has been around less than a year, I am not sure how you can say that restaurant sales are up "year over year" in spite of the HST. At any rate, it appears the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association would disagree with you AF:
You are going to rely on the association's numbers, rather than Statscan?
Statscan is an unbiased federal agency who uses actual sales tax data to calculate their results, while the CRFA obviously has a huge bias, and they relied on a survey of their members to come up with their numbers.
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Now all of the equipment sold for pennies on the dollar on Craigslist is the result of the HST??? Now that statement is totally ridiculous! (notice I didn't suggest it was humorous) ;D
Um - from small business folding - most are from one man or family owned business
I even question your earlier statement: "Oddly enough, I've talked to people in the same line as mine , and everyone of us, from the supply chain to those of us on the ground have seen anything from 15 to 30% drop in business since implementation.".
Really? My wife works in the mining industry- they're down quite a bit too. I can easily back that statement up as to most facets in my industry
The BC economy has grown more than 3% this year (since the introduction of the HST) and you suggest your industries sales are down 30%?? Even restaurant sales (which should have been hit hard by the HST) are up year over year in spite of it.
Odd- the eateries I frequent say between the HST and the .05 laws they're sucking fumes.
The studies I have read on the effects of the HST indicate that the HST has had some effect on the economy in BC, and for that reason the government is making adjustments by lowering the HST rate from 12% to 10% and providing families with young children a cheque for $175 per person to offset the increased costs. They are also increasing taxes for business by 2% to "take back" some of the savings they are getting as a result of the HST.
How many times have we been outright lied to by this pack of jackasses? If you're either naive or gullible to buy that pile of crap , then my apologies to you. Seriously you believe that? ::)
I understand you have a hate on for the Liberal government and anything related to it, including the HST, and you are free to feel that way. However if you post nonsense that I find either humorous or just nonsense I will comment on it.
It is after all a public forum.
Right back at ya- Yes, I admit I do dislike the ruling government - for the total lack of honesty. Until we start to demand integreity we end up with the sad collection of shills, crooks and liars that presently inhabit the Legislature. Do you believe your hero's are right up there with candor and truthfullness?
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Ill stick with the lesser of 2 evils, hence another 4 yrs of dippers as opposition..... ;D
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You are going to rely on the association's numbers, rather than Statscan?
Statscan is an unbiased federal agency who uses actual sales tax data to calculate their results, while the CRFA obviously has a huge bias, and they relied on a survey of their members to come up with their numbers.
That is interesting...you say the HST is good for "business", but when an association of "businesses" says the HST is hurting their business, you suggest they are lying because they are bias. The "independent" report was relying on "preliminary" Statscan data, data that may indeed not be as reliable as the year goes on, but as you said yourself, the CRFA relied on a survey of their members: businessmen, who were saying business is down, not up. If the HST were really good for their business, why would they lie about it? Why would they not support the HST? Just trying to understand your argument here.
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That is interesting...you say the HST is good for "business", but when an association of "businesses" says the HST is hurting their business, you suggest they are lying because they are bias. The "independent" report was relying on "preliminary" Statscan data, data that may indeed not be as reliable as the year goes on, but as you said yourself, the CRFA relied on a survey of their members: businessmen, who were saying business is down, not up. If the HST were really good for their business, why would they lie about it? Why would they not support the HST? Just trying to understand your argument here.
My argument is that the restaurant industry does not want the HST.... not because it increases their costs (it lowers them), but because consumers pay more to eat out and the fear is that consumers will eat out less as a result. I suggested they are biased because they represent one side of the argument..... anti-HST. Statscan doesn't represent either side they just report real time data.
The Statscan data is the most reliable data out there and both business and government use their data.
I remember when the GST was introduced in 1991. The restaurant industry had to charge the extra 7% on meals. They screamed murder! Their sales did go down initially however within a year their business was back to normal. Of course the restaurant industry has grown dramatically since 1991!
The HST adds the same 7% that the GST did when it was introduced. I suggest within a year restaurant sales will be growing at the same rate in BC as in parts of the country that don't charge PST on meals.
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The HST adds the same 7% that the GST did when it was introduced. I suggest within a year restaurant sales will be growing at the same rate in BC as in parts of the country that don't charge PST on meals.
Of course, many restaurants will close in that year, and many waitresses, cooks, dishwashers and busers will lose their jobs and not be spending money in other businesses while we wait for that to happen.
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Of course, many restaurants will close in that year, and many waitresses, cooks, dishwashers and busers will lose their jobs and not be spending money in other businesses while we wait for that to happen.
I'm sure that same argument was used when society started switching from horse and buggy to self propelled vehicles... There would have been a lot of horse carriage builders put out of business. Probably not the best example, but hopefully you get my point.
There is always going to be a cost to change, but if the change is the right one, then everyone eventually agrees that the change was worth the cost.
The HST is not a big change, and in Ontario it is not even being talked about anymore. In BC because of the legislation that the NDP introduced when they were in power which allowed government decisions like the HST to be challenged, we have the upcoming referendum. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, however Vanderzalm and other politically motivated people used it this time as a means to further their own agendas, and it has been blown up to be a larger change than it actually is. Of course add to that the sloppy introduction of the HST by the Liberals and it's become a huge deal!
In the end the change from the GST/PST tax system to the HST gives us a better tax system.
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I'm sure that same argument was used when society started switching from horse and buggy to self propelled vehicles... There would have been a lot of horse carriage builders put out of business. Probably not the best example, but hopefully you get my point.
Definitely not a good example as that too was a very bad idea in a long history of bad ideas. The greatest crisis facing mankind is a direct result of that particular bad idea. I am sure that at the time it was considered a great idea in the short term, even in the long term, but time has proven it to be disastrous to the planet. I am sure the HST will not be nearly as damaging.
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Definitely not a good example as that too was a very bad idea in a long history of bad ideas. The greatest crisis facing mankind is a direct result of that particular bad idea. I am sure that at the time it was considered a great idea in the short term, even in the long term, but time has proven it to be disastrous to the planet. I am sure the HST will not be nearly as damaging.
That's the first time I have ever heard anyone be upset about the innovation of the vehicle.... ;D
I agree about the HST.
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Of course, many restaurants will close in that year, and many waitresses, cooks, dishwashers and busers will lose their jobs and not be spending money in other businesses while we wait for that to happen.
And not just in that sector alone. Since MY sales are way off, I've had to shelve putting another crew on the road after I've made a substantial investment in equipment. AF , let me set the record straight before you make any more assumptions- Yes, indeed I dislike and distrust the Liberals because of the piles of bull$^it they've tossed about, but I feel the same way towards any other party that continually lies, cheats and uses the electorate as doormats. They're supposed to work for US, not the people who adorn the road with flower petals on the way to the throne. Any simpleton with 1/4 of a brain can see the Liberals donors are benefiting mightily during their reign. That's the crap that grinds my gears and every damn party does it. It's not morally acceptable , right or should even be allowed to happen, but it does in all levels of government. Until we stop sitting on our well marbled fannys and damn well demand clarity and truth, we're going to end up with the trash and liars that eat away at our lives and finances.
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That's the first time I have ever heard anyone be upset about the innovation of the vehicle.... ;D
Really? Under what rock have you been sleeping? While the automobile itself is not inherently evil, the internal combustion engine that powers it, and the billions of tonnes of greenhouse gases that we all dump into the atmosphere as we use it, day after day, year after year, (to the point that we cannot imagine living without it), is a primary (second only to industry) contributor to the greatest crisis facing humankind - global warming.
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I've noticed that Alwaysassuming is promoting things that either polute or lead to a major crisis down the road. Some sort of blind to the consequences outlook. Fasinating to observe, but also bone chilling. :-\ I've taken to rubbing my good luck rabit foot when reading his posts.
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Really? Under what rock have you been sleeping? While the automobile itself is not inherently evil, the internal combustion engine that powers it, and the billions of tonnes of greenhouse gases that we all dump into the atmosphere as we use it, day after day, year after year, (to the point that we cannot imagine living without it), is a primary (second only to industry) contributor to the greatest crisis facing humankind - global warming.
As much as I don't appreciate the derogatory suggestion that I sleep under a rock, here's what it would look like if I did.
Under my rock I can see what the world would be like if there wasn't any innovation. Under my rock people focus on how to to make the world better in spite of the negative aspects of innovation. We realize there would be huge poverty and lifespans would be similar to what they were in the early 1900's if innovation wasn't allowed. Under my rock global warming is a natural occurrence and has little to do with innovation.
On the other hand if I saw things from your perspective of a perfect world that lacks the internal combustion engine... the fishing and hunting would still be phenomenal and the lack of HST apparently would make some people happy...
I'll stick with my rock though. :D
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Is this AF? (posted in humour only- no humans were hurt or killed in the making of this post.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCFMDLakxaY
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Is this AF? (posted in humour only- no humans were hurt or killed in the making of this post.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCFMDLakxaY
Welcome to my world... ;D ;D Now Sandman can get an idea of what things would look like without innovation.
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You've done a wonderful job with the grounds and landscaping. Did you get a straight payout or residuals from that commercial?
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As much as I don't appreciate the derogatory suggestion that I sleep under a rock, here's what it would look like if I did.
Under my rock I can see what the world would be like if there wasn't any innovation. Under my rock people focus on how to to make the world better in spite of the negative aspects of innovation. We realize there would be huge poverty and lifespans would be similar to what they were in the early 1900's if innovation wasn't allowed. Under my rock global warming is a natural occurrence and has little to do with innovation.
On the other hand if I saw things from your perspective of a perfect world that lacks the internal combustion engine... the fishing and hunting would still be phenomenal and the lack of HST apparently would make some people happy...
I'll stick with my rock though. :D
It is not innovation that is problem AF, you missed the point entirely. It is an innovation that ignores the consequences that is the problem. The oil interests have stifled true innovation to protect their investment by keeping us dependent on fossil fuels instead of cleaner alternatives. Governments serve the interests of those that fund their campaigns, not the interests of the common man. Capitalism itself is inefficient, and ultimately unsustainable, but those that profit from it would have you support it to protect the status quo (and their status in it). The drive for profits and wealth have only served to rape the environment that we depend on for our very lives. Would you charge ahead, heedless of the consequences and leave your children a world irreparably damaged just so you could be a little more comfortable? If the anti HST movement had not resisted the government's arrogant abuse of power, then we would not have a 10% HST today, it would still be 12%. Now all that has ultimately done is reduce the revenue for the government so they will now have to cut services that could have been paid for by these added tax revenues. Had they been open and honest about what they were doing, they would have had no problem convincing British Columbians of the advantages of shifting the tax burden to the end consumer.
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It is not innovation that is problem AF, you missed the point entirely. .......
Oh I understand your point.... What your suggesting is the perfect world. That fantasy won't ever become reality. I'd be happy to discuss that in another thread, this thread is about the HST.
If the anti HST movement had not resisted the government's arrogant abuse of power, then we would not have a 10% HST today, it would still be 12%. Now all that has ultimately done is reduce the revenue for the government so they will now have to cut services that could have been paid for by these added tax revenues. Had they been open and honest about what they were doing, they would have had no problem convincing British Columbians of the advantages of shifting the tax burden to the end consumer.
The reason the HST is being lowered from 12% to 10% is because at 12% it is generating more revenue than the previous PST/GST. By lowering it to 10% the government is bringing the HST revenue down to what it was before HST was introduced.
I could care less whether the anti-HST group made it happen or not. I also could care less if they want to take the credit for it. I care that the HST is a better tax system than the PST/GST system, even if it was costing me more at 12%.
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The reason the HST is being lowered from 12% to 10% is because at 12% it is generating more revenue than the previous PST/GST. By lowering it to 10% the government is bringing the HST revenue down to what it was before HST was introduced.
No- it's simply sucking up with pie lie in the sky. Surely to God you're not naive enough to believe that the liberals will actually follow through with this. They have no credibility for a reason- being bald faced liars, over and over again. How much bullspit are you willing to put up with? And everyone will get a pony and all the ice cream they can eat and........ I don't believe people once they lie , like oh, lets say equal finances for both sides - 5 million vs. $250,000.Another lie. "Non partisan ad campaign" - Kevin Falcon admitted publically that was a lie. There's so many lies with Liberal fingerprints and autographs on it regarding this crock of crap, but you find it acceptable ??? Why do you think liars should be rewarded?
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http://alexgtsakumis.com/2011/06/06/the-clark-governments-gamble-on-the-hst-misleading-the-public-job-one/
There will be a time, soon enough, when a lengthier post on the perils of allowing for the continuance of the HST will become manifestly necessary here, but for now, let me give you some perspective you won’t read anywhere else.
Christy Clark is desperate to go to the polls because if she waits any longer, her numbers will die well below the surprisingly reasonable (thus far) Adrian Dix.
The HST is the test pattern. If she and her government don;t deliver this, she’s in trouble. It’s a huge loss to wear. So, Kevin Falcon’s pals are out in full force–because it’d be a loss he’d wear too.
But lying to the public?
The so-called ‘Stick Men’ ads are the most reprehensible waste of taxpayer dollars that I can ever remember.
The notion that there is a ’10 percent FIX’ (emphasis added) is such complete balderdash, that words cannot describe the skulduggery. The HST doesn’t drop to that until 2013. And that’s IF the government survives and IF they don’t win an election in a squeaker this fall and then take back the promises under the guise of tougher times, pinching pennies for greater services to YOU, etc.
Do you not see that you are being lied to using your own money? But this is the way the Clark government operates.
And when it looks as if they are in the fight of their lives, they commit to a little fancy dancing too.
One of Clark’s most trusted aides, Dimitri Pantazopoulos, who was once the federal Tories pollster, has been trying to get various BC membership lists from his Tory pals in Ottawa for the purpose of getting the word out. As one bluntly put it to me this morning: “He even tried to knock on the door of the PMO…as you’re aware, he’s not going to get a bloody thing from us and she’s not welcome around here.”
Can you believe these clowns? Falcon has turned into a serial prevaricator with respect to this truly punitive tax, Clark is now the Briber-In Chief and her aides, ALL PAID BY YOU, are committing to full-on trickery, all to get a tax passed that hurts a majority of BCers, just so they can save political face.
Who cares about your families–Clark has hardly put them first.
Voting BC Liberal in the next election are you?
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It is not innovation that is problem AF, you missed the point entirely. It is an innovation that ignores the consequences that is the problem. The oil interests have stifled true innovation to protect their investment by keeping us dependent on fossil fuels instead of cleaner alternatives. Governments serve the interests of those that fund their campaigns, not the interests of the common man. Capitalism itself is inefficient, and ultimately unsustainable, but those that profit from it would have you support it to protect the status quo (and their status in it)
one problem. what do we replace capitalism with? dictatorship? communism? anarchism? neither works... capitalism isn't all that its cracked up to be for sure, but its a heck of a lot better then any alternatives we got atm.
They have no credibility for a reason- being bald faced liars, over and over again.
welcome to politics. ALL politicians are liars. Liberals and NDP alike.
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welcome to politics. ALL politicians are liars. Liberals and NDP alike.
It's past time to hold them to account. If they get caught lying to to - US - they're employers - then you're fired. No wiggle room, no weasel words, no more BS. As it seems they want private sector wages at the public trough, they should have the same accountability. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting this, but the liars wouldn't pass a law like that on their deathbed. I absolutely agree, they all lie.The last politician that I remember having any principles at all was Chuck Cadman, RIP. The rest all reek of the same odour.
And that is why I disbelieve the Liberals will ever roll back the HST.
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one problem. what do we replace capitalism with? dictatorship? communism? anarchism? neither works... capitalism isn't all that its cracked up to be for sure, but its a heck of a lot better then any alternatives we got atm.
Good question. We need our politicians to pick and choose what gov't policies work for us and discard these political labels like capitalist and socialist that are all about ideology and not about what works best for the BC and Canadian economies. Like it or not, we will always be a resource based economy for a number reasons and a purely capitalist ideology (that Harper and Clark seem to drool over) would put all lands and natural resources under private ownership (and often foreign ownership). A purely socialist ideology would stifle important elements of a resource based economy. But we don't have to only eat from one of their buffets, we can discard ideological labels and pick and choose what's best for us. We don't seem to have a party that actually follows that philosophy (which is supposed to be liberalism).
I may hate the HST and how the "Liberals" lied about it and are trying to bribe us into accepting it, but I'm probably going to grudgingly vote for it and look towards the next election to vent my feelings and then go take a long shower since we need to move on. However, if the Feds offer Quebec a bigger bribe for them to harmonize their sales tax in the next couple years (announced in the recent budget) than they gave BC, then I'll be pissed if we didn't reject it.
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I'd be happy to discuss that in another thread, this thread is about the HST.
Ha....I'm still waiting to see how this thread is "Fishing-related Issues and News". A lot of "carping"? Smells "fishy"?
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Good question. We need our politicians to pick and choose what gov't policies work for us and discard these political labels like capitalist and socialist that are all about ideology and not about what works best for the BC and Canadian economies. Like it or not, we will always be a resource based economy for a number reasons and a purely capitalist ideology (that Harper and Clark seem to drool over) would put all lands and natural resources under private ownership (and often foreign ownership). A purely socialist ideology would stifle important elements of a resource based economy. But we don't have to only eat from one of their buffets, we can discard ideological labels and pick and choose what's best for us. We don't seem to have a party that actually follows that philosophy (which is supposed to be liberalism).
I may hate the HST and how the "Liberals" lied about it and are trying to bribe us into accepting it, but I'm probably going to grudgingly vote for it and look towards the next election to vent my feelings and then go take a long shower since we need to move on. However, if the Feds offer Quebec a bigger bribe for them to harmonize their sales tax in the next couple years (announced in the recent budget) than they gave BC, then I'll be pissed if we didn't reject it.
I believe the "bribes" are related to population... Ontario got $4.3 billion compared to BC's $1.6.
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Ha....I'm still waiting to see how this thread is "Fishing-related Issues and News". A lot of "carping"? Smells "fishy"?
HST is "News" is it not?
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Quote from: Bavarian Raven on Today at 07:10:27 AM
welcome to politics. ALL politicians are liars. Liberals and NDP alike.
It's past time to hold them to account. If they get caught lying to to - US - they're employers - then you're fired. No wiggle room, no weasel words, no more BS. As it seems they want private sector wages at the public trough, they should have the same accountability.
i agree with this. the only problem is (short of armed revolution), it cannot be accomplished. sadly. :-\ (at least i dont see how it can be reasonably accomplished, given the type of people that politics draws in...)
Good question. We need our politicians to pick and choose what gov't policies work for us and discard these political labels like capitalist and socialist that are all about ideology and not about what works best for the BC and Canadian economies. Like it or not, we will always be a resource based economy for a number reasons and a purely capitalist ideology (that Harper and Clark seem to drool over) would put all lands and natural resources under private ownership (and often foreign ownership). A purely socialist ideology would stifle important elements of a resource based economy. But we don't have to only eat from one of their buffets, we can discard ideological labels and pick and choose what's best for us. We don't seem to have a party that actually follows that philosophy (which is supposed to be liberalism).
I may hate the HST and how the "Liberals" lied about it and are trying to bribe us into accepting it, but I'm probably going to grudgingly vote for it and look towards the next election to vent my feelings and then go take a long shower since we need to move on. However, if the Feds offer Quebec a bigger bribe for them to harmonize their sales tax in the next couple years (announced in the recent budget) than they gave BC, then I'll be pissed if we didn't reject it.
fair enough. imho, government should be in charge of only a few key elements. defence. foreign relations. making sure every-one is given fair treatment under the laws. maintenance of roads/education/health care. and even then, they should only do what is required and nothing else. but, having known many a person who has worked for the city, it is rediculous how much "lost" (wasted) money there is. heck, my own father use to work for the surrey parks board back in the late 80s and got scolded for not spending enough money o.O(yet managed to get all the work done and had the parks in a better condition then they were previously maintained too) (he quit latter that week). Heck, if things were properly managed (and people paid reasonable amounts) we wouldnt need the taxes nearly as high as they are. But that is another argument for another thread.
Now all that aside, i will vote for the HST because it seems good for the family business but i agree, the way it was put in was horrible...
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Liberal Tactics: Bamboozle and Bore HST Voters
So true.
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/06/09/HSTLiberalTactics/?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=090611
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Liberal Tactics: Bamboozle and Bore HST Voters
So true.
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/06/09/HSTLiberalTactics/?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=090611
I read through the article and as with typical Tyee documents there is a whole lot of blustering and conspiracy theories with little substance. To save yourself some time I copied and pasted the one sentence in the whole article that is actually some sound advice....
"Get the facts from both the Yes and No sides. Then vote for what you believe is best for British Columbia. [Tyee] "
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Filmed this for AF today at City Hall. ;D ;D ;D
http://youtu.be/SMmoZFF7zg0
http://youtu.be/2vDb8zzOk9A
http://youtu.be/V_9NGSz-M1c
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Looks like everybody was having fun Chris!
On a more serious note, it's unfortunate how much red tape people have to go through, just to be able to go out and legally litter.... ;D
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http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/UPDATE+Chilliwack+Fight+sign+flap+continues/4928431/story.html
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The Liberals mantra- Lie, cheat, lie and cheat some more. There is no moral fiber in that pack of jackals as evidenced by Falcon saying if defeated, they'd simply apply PST to previously exempt services and goods. They're undoubtedly below the skack at the bottom of the barrel.
What part of we're fed up with being fed bullspit is hard for that freak show to comprehend?
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http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/06/14/HSTVoteAboutMoney/?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=140611
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Bill Tielemann....
It is noteworthy that recently, FightHST panelist (and writer of many of the Tyee ant-HST articles) Bill Tieleman disclosed a major motivating factor that got him involved with FightHST. It seems that many of Tieleman’s clients are unions, and apparently, unions are not eligible to claim a rebate of the seven per cent tax that they pay on his consulting services.
And here I thought he was just looking after the interests of the ordinary hard working BC citizen ...... ;D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2PzZzczaFQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2PzZzczaFQ)
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Bill Tielemann....
It is noteworthy that recently, FightHST panelist (and writer of many of the Tyee ant-HST articles) Bill Tieleman disclosed a major motivating factor that got him involved with FightHST. It seems that many of Tieleman’s clients are unions, and apparently, unions are not eligible to claim a rebate of the seven per cent tax that they pay on his consulting services.
And here I thought he was just looking after the interests of the ordinary hard working BC citizen ...... ;D
And the Fraser Institute is gospel...... ;) The youtube looks like blackmail of the poor and elderly AF- How low does the government go? Threatening videos made with MY money. ??? No moral compass at all.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2PzZzczaFQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2PzZzczaFQ)
i made a comment under this video. Lets see if they publish my remark or not. ;D
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i made a comment under this video. Lets see if they publish my remark or not. ;D
Looks like they didn't publish your comments.... Next time use symbols "&*^ *&(*&@@$%^ #$%# HST!!" instead of all those bad words! ;D
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Oddly , I go to the link and I get a brown, odorous substance in a sorta circle. I was thinking it might come from the south end of a north bound unnuetered male bovine.
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Just got back from Bill's visit to Chilliwack tonight. Things are looking fantastic. ;D ;D ;D
Some video to follow.
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Here you go Always.
http://youtu.be/MRhJX6TOjxM
http://youtu.be/XRSFQOLp5o0
http://youtu.be/TWYon4n25I8
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Thanks Chris! As much as it hurts, it's usually good entertainment to be able to listen to Bill's whiny voice..
I actually listened to a good part of most of those. While there is a ton of misinformation in them, one that stood out is his statement that the promise of a 10% HST will probably not happen.... :o
He apparently isn't aware that the Federal government has already passed into law the future reductions of the HST rate. That means that whoever the current or future BC government is, the HST will be reduced to 10%.
Maybe someone should let Bill know.
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"In B.C. political history there is another great example of a tax surprise, and it's one that is not just incredibly rich in irony but also parallels the introduction of the HST. Back in 1987, the Social Credit government brought in the property transfer tax, which adds almost $10,000 to a house that costs a little more than $525,000 (a tax hit, by the way, that dwarfs the financial impact most people will experience with the HST).
The tax has become lucrative to governments - it provides more than $800 million a year - but is hurtful to homebuyers, and makes already expensive homes even costlier.
Here's the parallel to the HST: the tax was introduced just after the 1986 election campaign, during which the Socreds never breathed a word of the hit they were about to unleash on homebuyers.
And here's the irony: the premier who brought in the property transfer tax was none other than Bill Vander Zalm, who is leading the Fight HST group.
You can't make this stuff up!
Keith Baldrey is chief political correspondent for Global B.C."
Read more: http://www.burnabynow.com/business/Libs+first+play+with/4950106/story.html#ixzz1PfNlc6iG
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In B.C. political history there is another great example of a tax surprise, and it's one that is not just incredibly rich in irony but also parallels the introduction of the HST. Back in 1987, the Social Credit government brought in the property transfer tax, which adds almost $10,000 to a house that costs a little more than $525,000 (a tax hit, by the way, that dwarfs the financial impact most people will experience with the HST).
The tax has become lucrative to governments - it provides more than $800 million a year - but is hurtful to homebuyers, and makes already expensive homes even costlier.
Here's the parallel to the HST: the tax was introduced just after the 1986 election campaign, during which the Socreds never breathed a word of the hit they were about to unleash on homebuyers.
And here's the irony: the premier who brought in the property transfer tax was none other than Bill Vander Zalm, who is leading the Fight HST group.
You can't make this stuff up!
Keith Baldrey is chief political correspondent for Global B.C.
Read more: http://www.burnabynow.com/business/Libs+first+play+with/4950106/story.html#ixzz1PfNlc6iG
You probably should have put quotation marks around that AF.
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You are correct. I fixed it.
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And you forgot the part about the liberals extorting seniors and low income families if they don't get what they want! And the outright lies about the "information campaign" not being biased and equally funded for both sides! The job growth has been astronomical, prices are dropping like flies, it's remained revenue neutral,......How much fertilizer do you need?
So we should support LIARS? That continue to lie to us?
Get ALL the facts,not the AF version. ( Not calling you a liar AF, just the skack you support)
Have a read here- http://www.publiceyeonline.com/archives/006170.html Is that Mr. Falcon's boomerang I here?
So - to simplify this. We've already been told that the advertising won't be partisan. Well guess what - we were lied to one more time. How does this gang of pro HST fools expect me to believe any of the horse manure floating around when the proven liars just keep piling it up like the back of the barn? Do they have a shred of integrity to share amongst them?
Seems like some fair questions AF- Or will you sidestep this?
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Looks like they didn't publish your comments.... Next time use symbols "&*^ *&(*&@@$%^ #$%# HST!!" instead of all those bad words! ;D
Still did not post my comment which does not surprise me as that is the way these guys have operated since they first did not tell the truth about this, disappointing.
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Still did not post my comment which does not surprise me as that is the way these guys have operated since they first did not tell the truth about this, disappointing.
Lie, cheat, deny and silence all who disagree. You notice 'the supporters" disappear when faced with FACTS that expose the lies, just like the rest of the crew.Pathetic.
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I have spent quite a bit of time trying to wrap my head around this HST since it was first introduced, I was told that it would help me save money with my business, end result is NOPE I am still paying the exact same amount of tax I just don't have to send the PST I collect into the government on a monthly basis, now I have to pay HST on all the supplies I buy and collect HST on all of the supplies I sell and at the end of the year I have to pay 12% on the difference... really it isn't a big deal and in some ways makes my life a little easier..... the BIG problem I have is now they want to drop the HST from 12% down to 10% which is GREAT !!! nope wait a minute, it is only great on the surface !! in order to drop this 2% they want to charge me 2% more on my corporate taxes which means I am going to have to pay an additional 2% tax on any profit my company manages over the year.... so I guess for the average person who works 9-5 this would be great, for myself and others that run small businesses it just makes it that much harder to make ends meet.
It make me sick when I hear the pro HST commercials on the radio, they try to make it sound like a great idea..... they talk about how it will save everyone money but fail to mention how they are going to screw small business owners along the way >:(
TH
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I have spent quite a bit of time trying to wrap my head around this HST since it was first introduced, I was told that it would help me save money with my business, end result is NOPE I am still paying the exact same amount of tax I just don't have to send the PST I collect into the government on a monthly basis, now I have to pay HST on all the supplies I buy and collect HST on all of the supplies I sell and at the end of the year I have to pay 12% on the difference... really it isn't a big deal and in some ways makes my life a little easier..... the BIG problem I have is now they want to drop the HST from 12% down to 10% which is GREAT !!! nope wait a minute, it is only great on the surface !! in order to drop this 2% they want to charge me 2% more on my corporate taxes which means I am going to have to pay an additional 2% tax on any profit my company manages over the year.... so I guess for the average person who works 9-5 this would be great, for myself and others that run small businesses it just makes it that much harder to make ends meet.
It make me sick when I hear the pro HST commercials on the radio, they try to make it sound like a great idea..... they talk about how it will save everyone money but fail to mention how they are going to screw small business owners along the way >:(
TH
According to a lot of voters in BC the small business owners are screwing the general public by getting the PST eliminated on business expenses and instead of passing those savings on to the consumers, they just add the money to their fat bank accounts!
I'm so confused... is the ordinary Joe getting screwed or is it the small business owner??
Maybe Novabonker is correct when he continually repeats himself, saying that those lying Liberals are screwing everybody..... ;D ;D ;D
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According to a lot of voters in BC the small business owners are screwing the general public by getting the PST eliminated on business expenses and instead of passing those savings on to the consumers, they just add the money to their fat bank accounts!
I'm so confused... is the ordinary Joe getting screwed or is it the small business owner??
Maybe Novabonker is correct when he continually repeats himself, saying that those lying Liberals are screwing everybody..... ;D ;D ;D
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/06/21/HSTAboutDemocracy/?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=210611
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http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/06/21/HSTAboutDemocracy/?utm_source=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=210611
"HST Is About Democracy, Not Just Money"
That's an interesting change in tactic.... I guess he's lost the "HST is costing you more" argument so he reverting to you should oppose the HST because you didn't get a say in implementing it.
I wonder why he didn't protest when the Liberal government lowered our personal income tax rates from one of the highest in Canada during the NDP rein to the second lowest income tax rate in Canada today... I don't remember getting a vote on the Liberals lowering my taxes....
PS: I put in a comment in Bill's blog. Waiting to see if it gets published.
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That was interesting....
My comments were posted, but 1 minute later they were taken down.... Maybe he disagreed with my comments? ;D
Edit: Sorry MY mistake, the comments are there but they are not under the "Best" tab, they are under the "All" tab... :)
gsarahs
14 minutes ago
Suggest as offensive
Recommend as a best comment
Radio ads are also insulting!
The current radio ads being shovelled into our ears seem to be getting even more desperate, "exposing" those on the "Yes" side as spreading lies and distortion. All they do with me is make me even more determined to vote, and "Yes". I find them insulting to our intelligence, not the other way around as is stated in the ads. It will be interesting to find out how many McStupid people actually vote "No".
It was so nice visiting England recently where the sticker price is actually what you pay, and at a restaurant, you pay what it says on the menu, and you don't have to give a tip since the servers actually get a decent wage. Yes, I know that taxes are already included in the price, but why hasn't this been brought up as one potential new way of dealing with sales taxes?
alwaysfishn
1 second ago
Interesting change in tactic....
I guess now that the "HST is costing you more" argument is not valid you've changed your argument to "The HST isn't just about tax policy -- it's about democracy itself".
I wonder why you didn't protest when the Liberal government lowered our personal income tax rates from one of the highest in Canada during the NDP rein to the second lowest income tax rate in Canada today... I don't remember anyone getting a vote on that tax change policy...
Maybe you're suggesting it's undemocratic when you don't agree with the policy, and it's democratic when you agree with the policy???
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No, just suggesting that we are expected to accept the lies about the ads being non partisan, funding being equal, (5 million to 250 thousand) which they definitely are not. It's years until the HST hits 10% IF THAT'S NOT ANOTHER LIE. I'm fed up with liars of any political stripe, but abusing your authority and spending MY tax money on an ALLEGED EDUCATION CAMPAIGN that turns into a rah rah sales pitch curdles my 2%.
Do you find a constant stream of outright lies acceptable AF? I don't and I suggest it's time nobody did.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frnBgX9QRZM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frnBgX9QRZM)
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Hello Chris
The BC Liberal “myths” about the HST just keep piling up.
We don't have the budget to fight the lies, we need your help. Keep the message going by forwarding this link to all the people you know and ask them to do the same.
Following is their latest Top Seven – all new and misleading as ever – HST Myths:
1. The HST is now 10% - False
The HST is 12% and will not be 10% for three years – if ever. There will be an election before that, and even if the HST were to miraculously drop to 10% - it will still apply to hundreds more goods and services than a 12% PST/GST for a consumer tax increase of $1.6B per year. And who says it won’t go right back up again later?
2. The HST will lower taxes – False
This one is hilarious. The HST increases taxes for British Columbians by $2.8 Billion per year. That’s an average annual increase of $500 per person - or $1208 per average family – forever. Finance Minister Falcon says if his side loses he may disregard the result and expand the PST to items previously exempt – and that’s illegal. Do you really trust this guy to cut the rate if he wins?
3. The HST will save you money - False
And the tooth fairy is going to leave you a quarter under your pillow too. To get their numbers to show the HST actually “saving” you money they are calculating only “routine purchases” and that 90% of what you pay in HST will be passed back to you in lower prices. Have you seen lower prices?... We didn’t think so.
4. The HST benefits seniors - False
Seniors and people on fixed incomes are some of the hardest hit by the HST. A one time rebate of $175 if you vote in favour of their tax in exchange for paying it for the next 10-30 years of your retirement is a deal only a snake oil salesman would offer. Why take $175 when you can vote to cancel the HST and keep all your money? How dumb do they think we are?
5. The HST benefits families – False
Next to seniors, working families are hardest hit by the HST because they are among the largest consumers and have dependent children. Bribes of $175 per child when your cost is closer to $400 a year each makes you wonder if they think all of us failed math as badly as they did. And what about a single mom with two kids going to college? She gets nothing while the Premier and Finance Minister who earn big six figure salaries get the rebate. Nice.
6. Business will pay more so you can pay less - False
A temporary increase of 2% in corporate taxes will be passed on to consumers with increased prices. Either way you pay the final bill whether it’s in HST or higher prices.
7. We will owe $1.6 Billion if we cancel the HST - False
The “Independent Panel” says the HST generated $850 million more than budgeted. Setting aside that is the biggest tax grab in history, it means government already has $850 million to repay Ottawa. BC has only received $1B, and Ottawa collected $300M more in corporate taxes under the HST than under the PST. So it’s a wash. And keeping the HST would cost British Columbians alot more than killing it – over $28 Billion in new taxes in just 10 years.
Vote YES to extinguish the HST and save your province, your democracy, and your money!
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Got slapped and dismissed over at the Tyee, huh? ;D ;D ;D-there's some integrity left in the province that isn't for sale. Nobody's buying the HST lies over there either.
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AF - The second video is funnier than the first. ;D
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Dispelling Vanderzalm's myths & misrepresentations on the HST
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=14&ved=0CCgQFjADOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ctf.ca%2Fctfweb%2FCMDownload.aspx%3FContentKey%3D71936168-4416-4f7a-9bba-41383b591cdc%26ContentItemKey%3Deecb53e3-4dd0-4a82-80c2-da32949e2db9&rct=j&q=Top%20Seven%20%E2%80%93%20all%20new%20and%20misleading%20as%20ever%20%E2%80%93%20HST%20Myths%3A&tbs=ctr%3A7p604125b982ek&ei=VAICToPBKKH40gHC6KHTDg&usg=AFQjCNEF6C4_ra5DFQurjM4iTlPPgo7Y0w&as_acct=8sa53zk23u&cr=zl9zu63xs&as_acct=3d1u4c6291kr8e&cr=0nx9gf2kem17 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=14&ved=0CCgQFjADOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ctf.ca%2Fctfweb%2FCMDownload.aspx%3FContentKey%3D71936168-4416-4f7a-9bba-41383b591cdc%26ContentItemKey%3Deecb53e3-4dd0-4a82-80c2-da32949e2db9&rct=j&q=Top%20Seven%20%E2%80%93%20all%20new%20and%20misleading%20as%20ever%20%E2%80%93%20HST%20Myths%3A&tbs=ctr%3A7p604125b982ek&ei=VAICToPBKKH40gHC6KHTDg&usg=AFQjCNEF6C4_ra5DFQurjM4iTlPPgo7Y0w&as_acct=8sa53zk23u&cr=zl9zu63xs&as_acct=3d1u4c6291kr8e&cr=0nx9gf2kem17)
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AF - The second video is funnier than the first. ;D
I thought so too! ;D
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4. The HST benefits seniors - False
Seniors and people on fixed incomes are some of the hardest hit by the HST. A one time rebate of $175 if you vote in favour of their tax in exchange for paying it for the next 10-30 years of your retirement is a deal only a snake oil salesman would offer. Why take $175 when you can vote to cancel the HST and keep all your money? How dumb do they think we are?
Wowsers - I never knew that seniors NEVER had to pay taxes before the HST was implemented!! ???
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According to a lot of voters in BC the small business owners are screwing the general public by getting the PST eliminated on business expenses and instead of passing those savings on to the consumers, they just add the money to their fat bank accounts!
I'm so confused... is the ordinary Joe getting screwed or is it the small business owner??
Maybe Novabonker is correct when he continually repeats himself, saying that those lying Liberals are screwing everybody..... ;D ;D ;D
When you find all of these great tax breaks I'm supposed to be getting can you please let me know !! My "fat" bank account could use a little plumping !!!
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Dispelling Vanderzalm's myths & misrepresentations on the HST
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=14&ved=0CCgQFjADOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ctf.ca%2Fctfweb%2FCMDownload.aspx%3FContentKey%3D71936168-4416-4f7a-9bba-41383b591cdc%26ContentItemKey%3Deecb53e3-4dd0-4a82-80c2-da32949e2db9&rct=j&q=Top%20Seven%20%E2%80%93%20all%20new%20and%20misleading%20as%20ever%20%E2%80%93%20HST%20Myths%3A&tbs=ctr%3A7p604125b982ek&ei=VAICToPBKKH40gHC6KHTDg&usg=AFQjCNEF6C4_ra5DFQurjM4iTlPPgo7Y0w&as_acct=8sa53zk23u&cr=zl9zu63xs&as_acct=3d1u4c6291kr8e&cr=0nx9gf2kem17 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=14&ved=0CCgQFjADOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ctf.ca%2Fctfweb%2FCMDownload.aspx%3FContentKey%3D71936168-4416-4f7a-9bba-41383b591cdc%26ContentItemKey%3Deecb53e3-4dd0-4a82-80c2-da32949e2db9&rct=j&q=Top%20Seven%20%E2%80%93%20all%20new%20and%20misleading%20as%20ever%20%E2%80%93%20HST%20Myths%3A&tbs=ctr%3A7p604125b982ek&ei=VAICToPBKKH40gHC6KHTDg&usg=AFQjCNEF6C4_ra5DFQurjM4iTlPPgo7Y0w&as_acct=8sa53zk23u&cr=zl9zu63xs&as_acct=3d1u4c6291kr8e&cr=0nx9gf2kem17)
My computer says it is not safe to download this link. ;D ;D ;D
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My computer says it is not safe to download this link. ;D ;D ;D
You have my guarantee that it's very safe.... ;)
There are a few side effects, however they are all good.
It erases all references to Vanderzalm and the anti-HST gang from your computers memory! ;D
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You have my guarantee that it's very safe....
There are a few side effects, however they are all good.
Nice Read - points out even more things that Vanderzalm and company are omitting and basically mis-informing the public. Makes me really wonder just what their agenda is really about.
BTW - the wording was simple and in typed large font - should be easy to read for the anti-hst group. ;D
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Can't wait to vote "yes". Has anybody recieved the card yet? The adds for the no side have pushed me to vote yes.
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Can't wait to vote "yes". Has anybody recieved the card yet? The adds for the no side have pushed me to vote yes.
;D ;D ;D
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Can't wait to vote "yes". Has anybody recieved the card yet? The adds for the no side have pushed me to vote yes.
I have seen an easily deduced opinion on the internet, and I will follow in an identical manner for fear of using my own brain matter!!
Card, anybody? The guy above me said "yes"!!!!
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According to a lot of voters in BC the small business owners are screwing the general public by getting the PST eliminated on business expenses and instead of passing those savings on to the consumers, they just add the money to their fat bank accounts!
More bull#$it See trophyhunter's posts. He's in the same pickle as me with numbers off.We Aren't alone as I know lots of folks in the same boat.Tell me oh, Great Swami - Where have you seen prices drop - in fact you won't and you can't because it's all smoke and mirrors and lies. But keep perpetuating the lies and soon everyone will believe them. If you choose to roll around the sty.....pretty soon you start to smell of the sty contents.
I'm so confused... is the ordinary Joe getting screwed or is it the small business owner??
Maybe Novabonker is correct when he continually repeats himself, saying that those lying Liberals are screwing everybody.....
I guess if you are really satisfied with proven, time and time again, LIARS, FIBBERS, BULL@$ITTERS, UNTRUTHS, ETC. than all is good. I have a different set of morals that aren't so low that one just accepts serial lies and liars as part of the politics of corporate greed.
TELL US ALL AF - ARE YOU HAPPY WITH THE NEVER ENDING STREAM OF LIES? WHY? Does it suit your moral fiber or lack thereof? Should politicians not be held to account? Would or do you accept this kind of behavior from your employees?
And as far as continually repeating myself, take a long look in the mirror little buddy.I've heard the same bologna repeatedly from a certain source. Maybe, just maybe I'll wake a few people up from the koolaid coma and our province won't be run by con men and scam artists.Maybe one day politicians will be forced into telling the truth. Or maybe I should drink some of that HST Koolaid and just accept that lies are good for me.
And just one more - As a financial adviser, do you think you're clients would accept the same thing from you?
;D ;D ;D
And I noticed you sure got your tail kicked and then handed to you on the Tyee site. Now that was funny! ;D
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And I noticed you sure got your tail kicked and then handed to you on the Tyee site. Now that was funny! ;D
Finally something we agree on Novabonker.... I thought the responses to my posts on the Tyee were funny as well! A short course in economics would help a few of them...
Reminds me of a little story I heard the other day, that can be related to the HST discussions;
A mother with 2 boys was trying to figure out how to give the boys some awful tasting medicine that the Doctor had prescribed for their ailment. The medicine was critical to their health so the mother disguised the taste of the medicine by mixing it with some orange juice which she knew they liked. They both drank it down and of course fully recovered. Years later she told them the story...
One of the boys thanked his mother for being creative in getting him to take his medicine and really appreciated that the medicine had cured him. Unfortunately in a fit of rage, the other boy vowed never to speak to his mother again. Angry that she had deceived him that way, he went on a campaign telling anyone that would listen, how his mother lied to him and that he could never trust her again..
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Finally something we agree on Novabonker.... I thought the responses to my posts on the Tyee were funny as well! A short course in economics would help a few of them...
Reminds me of a little story I heard the other day, that can be related to the HST discussions;
A mother with 2 boys was trying to figure out how to give the boys some awful tasting medicine that the Doctor had prescribed for their ailment. The medicine was critical to their health so the mother disguised the taste of the medicine by mixing it with some orange juice which she knew they liked. They both drank it down and of course fully recovered. Years later she told them the story...
One of the boys thanked his mother for being creative in getting him to take his medicine and really appreciated that the medicine had cured him. Unfortunately in a fit of rage, the other boy vowed never to speak to his mother again. Angry that she had deceived him that way, he went on a campaign telling anyone that would listen, how his mother lied to him and that he could never trust her again..
Does the second boy remind you of anyone, Novabonker?? ;D ;D
hahahaha for me it was ginger-ale chasers!!
Also, just as somebody who has read this thread from back to front, hows about the major players in this agree to limit the personal attacks?? I understand that this is personal, and now that everybody's doing it, it's a lot harder to stop...I get that!! But seriously, we're all mature enough (I hope) to put those aside - NB and AF, I trust you are both as competent in your respective careers as you claim to be, so let's leave that side out, yeah?? It just interferes with real debate.
J
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hahahaha for me it was ginger-ale chasers!!
Also, just as somebody who has read this thread from back to front, hows about the major players in this agree to limit the personal attacks?? I understand that this is personal, and now that everybody's doing it, it's a lot harder to stop...I get that!! But seriously, we're all mature enough (I hope) to put those aside - NB and AF, I trust you are both as competent in your respective careers as you claim to be, so let's leave that side out, yeah?? It just interferes with real debate.
J
Point taken, I've removed the reference to Novabonker in my "bad medicine story"... ;)
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Accepting liars as leaders is disgraceful at best. And, just for fun I felt the same about the NDP when they were in power and fibbing. The federal parties as well. Until we DEMAND AND GET an honest,open and candid system of governance, then it becomes a contest of who lies best.
Assume your in a private sector position of trust and dealing with people's lives, do you think you're clients would accept the same thing from you? Why should we accept it from politicians?
And I did tidy up the post, just for AF. ;D
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oops.
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oops.
Great Post!! Another thing we totally agree on! ;D ;D
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And Falcon comes up with another pike of crap. Has this guy EVER told the truth because his line of bull$hit keeps changing .Is he related to Pinocchio? Now the HST isn't good for all business...... Well freakin' DUH!
http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/Canada/BC/1258521056/ID=2022903172
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http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/hst-so-where-are-those-lower-prices/
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More spent on taxes is less spent on goods and services. Which is less jobs and so on.
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http://lailayuile.com/
The BC Liberal/Smart Tax Alliance Top Seven HST Myths
1. The HST is now 10% – False
The HST is 12% and will not be 10% for three years – if ever. There will be an election before that, and even if the HST were to miraculously drop to 10% – it will still apply to hundreds more goods and services than a 12% PST/GST for a consumer tax increase of $1.6B per year. And who says it won’t go right back up again later?
2. The HST will lower taxes – False
This one is hilarious. The HST increases taxes for British Columbians by $2.8 Billion per year. That’s an average annual increase of $500 per person – or $1208 per average family – forever. Finance Minister Falcon says if his side loses he may disregard the result and expand the PST to items previously exempt – and that’s illegal. Do you really trust this guy to cut the rate if he wins?
3. The HST will save you money – False
And the tooth fairy is going to leave you a quarter under your pillow too. To get their numbers to show the HST actually “saving” you money they are calculating only “routine purchases” and that 90% of what you pay in HST will be passed back to you in lower prices. Have you seen lower prices?… We didn’t think so.
4. The HST benefits seniors – False
Seniors and people on fixed incomes are some of the hardest hit by the HST. A one time rebate of $175 if you vote in favour of their tax in exchange for paying it for the next 10-30 years of your retirement is a deal only a snake oil salesman would offer. Why take $175 when you can vote to cancel the HST and keep all your money? How dumb do they think we are?
5. The HST benefits families – False
Next to seniors, working families are hardest hit by the HST because they are among the largest consumers and have dependent children. Bribes of $175 per child when your cost is closer to $400 a year each makes you wonder if they think all of us failed math as badly as they did. And what about a single mom with two kids going to college? She gets nothing while the Premier and Finance Minister who earn big six figure salaries get the rebate. Nice.
6. Business will pay more so you can pay less – False
A temporary increase of 2% in corporate taxes will be passed on to consumers with increased prices. Either way you pay the final bill whether it’s in HST or higher prices.
7. We will owe $1.6 Billion if we cancel the HST – False
The “Independent Panel” says the HST generated $850 million more than budgeted. Setting aside that is the biggest tax grab in history, it means government already has $850 million to repay Ottawa . BC has only received $1B, and Ottawa collected $300M more in corporate taxes under the HST than under the PST. So it’s a wash. And keeping the HST would cost British Columbians alot more than killing it – over $28 Billion in new taxes in just 10 years.
Vote YES to extinguish the HST and save your province, your democracy, and your money!
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I could have sworn I just read this in this same posting just a few days ago. ??? Other than the web site link - anything new?
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The Positive Impact of the HST
At 10 per cent, the HST will be two points lower than the 12 per cent PST-GST
The average B.C. family will now pay $120 less per year than they did under the PST-GST
In addition to low-income families receiving up to $230 per person in HST credits, children and seniors will receive annual transition cheques of $175 until the 10 per cent HST rate takes effect
83 per cent of small businesses support a 10 per cent HST, according to the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses
The HST is an efficient consumption tax with no loopholes, exemptions for special interest groups or deductions
The HST taxes the growing part of our economy services thereby providing $800m additional revenues British Columbia needs for health care and education by 2014
The HST removes tax duplication throughout the value chain eliminating the costly compounding effect of PST which was applied at every level from raw materials right through to the retail level.
Please note that to keep the HST you must vote No on the ballot. The Association encourages you to please vote in this important referendum.
Gordon Ruth, FCGA
Chief Executive Officer
http://www.cga-bc.org/latest_news.aspx?id=22194 (http://www.cga-bc.org/latest_news.aspx?id=22194)
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"83 per cent of small businesses support a 10 per cent HST, according to the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses"
As opposed to what, 20 percent HST. 100 percent would support no HST so there.
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By 2012 Canada will have the lowest corporate tax rate in the G7 - BC has the second lowest corporate tax rate in Canada, next to Nunavut. So let's all pass the hat with the HST and give an even bigger break, but do it on the backs of the working stiff.
GREED IS GOOD!
I could have sworn I just read this in this same posting just a few days ago. ??? Other than the web site link - anything new?
Some things need repeating.
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http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/2011/06/hst-referendum-vote-is-about-democracy.html
Voting on the HST not just on tax policy, but also about defending democracy
By Bill Tieleman
"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."
- James Bovard, author
The Harmonized Sales Tax referendum isn't just about tax policy -- it's about democracy itself.
Voting "Yes" to extinguish the HST sends a powerful message to this and every future B.C. government -- do not mislead voters by bringing in a major policy that you denied you would before an election.
We've seen it before -- from this same BC Liberal government that said it wouldn't privatize BC Rail before the 2001 election and sold it off in 2003.
We saw it in Nova Scotia, where the New Democrat government said before the 2009 election it wouldn't raise taxes -- would even cut some -- but afterwards increased their HST to 15 per cent from 13 per cent.
There are always reasons why many governments insist they just had to break their word -- and usually have a few years to get away with it before the next election.
Not this time.
Historic opportunity
The grassroots rebellion led by Fight HST, which I helped create with former B.C. premier Bill Vander Zalm, forced this month's binding referendum vote when the 2010 citizens initiative petition obtained more than 557,000 valid voter signatures.
That means that for the first time in Canadian history -- even Commonwealth history -- voters have the chance to democratically overturn a government policy that was imposed against their will.
That in itself is reason enough to vote "Yes" to extinguish the HST -- to punish a government that didn't respect its own citizens -- and teach all parties a lesson about political honesty.
Democracy is earned
Former premier Gordon Campbell could have listened when the petition was successful and cancelled the HST -- but wouldn't.
The BC Liberal government could have paid attention to polls showing over 80 per cent opposition to the HST -- but didn't.
New Premier Christy Clark could have been different -- but instead her government is running a $5 million advertising campaign claiming the HST is good for us -- while Clark actually claims she is "neutral."
And the BC Liberal Party's big business allies, the so-called Smart Tax Alliance, are running an even more expensive HST ad and automated telephone campaign.
They think democracy can be bought. Don't believe it.
Democracy can only be earned. And it isn't for sale.
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http://www.policyalternatives.ca/newsroom/news-releases/bc%E2%80%99s-unfair-tax-system-means-richest-households-pay-lowest-overall-tax-rate
Vancouver) Public debate about taxes may be focused on the HST, but a new report suggests that the HST is only one piece of an inequitable provincial tax system, a system in which the richest 20% of British Columbians pay a lower tax rate than the rest of us.
The report, by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives’ BC Office, examines changes to the overall tax system during the last decade, comparing the total provincial tax rate for households at different income levels. The total tax rate includes provincial income tax, plus MSP premiums and sales, carbon and property taxes.
“Most people probably assume that the wealthy pay a higher tax rate,” says study co-author Seth Klein. “That’s how income taxes work. But when we look at all taxes combined, it’s a different story.” The report’s key findings include:
In 2000, most BC families paid about the same total tax rate, with families in the top 10% and top 1% paying a little more.
By 2010, however, the tax system had become regressive, with the richest 20% of households paying a lower total tax rate than the rest of us.
“A decade of income tax cuts has lined the pockets of the wealthiest British Columbians,” says co-author Marc Lee. Combined, provincial income tax cuts introduced since 2001 deliver an average of $9,000 per year to the richest 10% of BC households, and a whopping $41,000 to the top 1%. In contrast, lower income households received an average tax cut of about $200 per year, and those in middle got just over $1,200.
The study finds that between 2000 and 2010, BC’s tax revenues fell by 1.7% of GDP, representing a loss of $3.4 billion in provincial revenue. “Tax cuts come at a high price,” says co-author Iglika Ivanova. “If we’d kept our tax system the same, we’d have $3.4 billion more to spend on needed public services today.”
The provincial government now relies more heavily on MSP premiums, the carbon tax, and sales taxes for public revenue. These taxes hit lower- and middle-income households harder. British Columbians now contribute more to the provincial treasury in MSP premiums than businesses contribute in provincial corporate income taxes.
The study calls for a Fair Tax Commission to look at how we pay for the services and infrastructure BC needs, and to make sure everyone contributes a fair share.
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Jealousy will get you nowhere....
Did you know that the top 20% of income earners in Canada pay 80% of the income taxes?
In the US the top 20% pay 88% of the income taxes. The top 50% pay 97% of the income taxes.
Apparently the bottom 80% of the income earners want the rich to pay all the taxes?
But what does that have to do with the HST discussion?
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As previously requested AF- keep the personal barbs out. I've managed, maybe you could try too. ::)
Fair tax policies? Screwing the little guy AGAIN with the HST? How much do they hold to make that much taxable income? Is there any limit to pure GREED?
http://www.strategicthoughts.com/record2011/HST_Kesselman.html
Business Council HST Study Rejected
As an economist who opposes the HST, I object to supporters of the HST frequently ridiculing opponents of the tax by portraying them as economic ignoramuses. A well produced and funny 15 minute YouTube video dissects a paper released by Fight HST, the group headed by Bill Vander Zalm. The people who made BC history by being the first to successfully use the Recall and Initiative Act are not economists, but community activists who can see what the HST is costing families as a result of the $2 billion cost shift: businesses no longer pay PST and consumers pay tax on a much broader range of goods and services to more than make up the difference.
It is frequently claimed that most economists support value added taxes like the HST. I don't know of any survey of economists to substantiate that claim, but I am aware that there are only a handful of economists who regularly speak out or write in favour of the tax. Two economists have attempted to quantify effects of the HST, Steven Smart for Atlantic Canada and Ontario and Jon Kesselman for BC.
The purpose of this column is to demonstrate that Kesselman's study is incorrect for two reasons. First, and most importantly, an analysis of the last 30 years of consumer price index (CPI) data show his results could be randomly obtained almost two thirds of the time. Second, the CPI data he used may be inadequate for the purposes for which he used it.
Kesselman's paper was prepared for the Business Council of British Columbia. By email he informed me that a version of his paper, updated with the latest CPI data, will be published in the in the June issue of Canadian Public Policy. He argued that his analysis of the CPI: “... finds that the HST resulted in a 0.6 of one percent increase in overall consumer prices in BC. This finding indicates that the average consumer is now paying just one additional dollar for every $165 of spending.” He went on to write:
“Public skepticism on this point is widespread. Admittedly it is difficult for consumers to identify small price cuts across a vast array of goods and services—whereas it is easy to see the HST, which is printed clearly on every sales receipt. But the different operation of the HST relative to the RST offers good reasons to expect the prices of some items to decrease post-HST. In this study I report on data that confirms that businesses have in fact passed through to consumers large amounts of their tax savings with the HST.”
Kesselman's claims are based on a method known as Difference-in-Difference (DD) estimation. He looked at the increase in the consumer price index for all items excluding energy between June and July 2010. He then looked at the difference between the increase in the CPI for BC between July and December compared to the average increase in it for Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. From that relatively simple calculation he reported “price impacts for BC were 1.0 percent in the first month and –0.5 percent in the next five months, for a net impact of 0.6 percent over the six-month period.” He then claimed that the 0.6 percent represented the consumer impacts of harmonization and that low figure was consistent with forecasts that assumed full pass-through of the business tax savings. That conclusion is very strong for what amounts to an interpretation of one glorified ratio of index numbers so I repeated Kesselman's calculations, not just for the last several months but for the last 30 years.
The motivation for my look at the CPI since 1981 came from a study done by three economists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. They randomly generated placebo laws in state-level data on female wages and then used a regression to compute the DD estimate of the placebo's “effect”. They found that the DD estimation resulted in an “effect” significant at the 5% level for up to 45% of the placebo laws.
Using the CPI data for all items excluding energy for BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba I repeated Kesselman's calculations for 30 years of data. Kesselman method applied to 30 yrs of CPI I looked at the change between June and July 1981 and compared it to the difference between BC and the western province average between July and December 1981. That formula was generalized to other months so, for example, I calculated the change between January and February 1990 compared to the difference between BC and the western province average between February and July. A graph of the figures that are equivalent to Kesselman's 0.6% is shown here. If a month is chosen at random, there is a chance of almost 2 out of 3 to get an estimate that our placebo change had an impact of less than 0.6% (226 months produced calculations under 0.6% and 126 produced calculations over 0.6%).
Not only did Kesselman rely on an unreliable calculation, but he may have pushed the CPI beyond what it is designed to do. Documentation from Statistics Canada says: “Statistical reliability is inherently more difficult to assess for price indexes than for other statistical series due to the complex nature of composite price change and the statistical problems of estimating composite price change.” It goes on to say: “Sampling error for the CPI price surveys is difficult to quantify because, except for rents and traveller accommodation, product and outlet samples are based on judgmental rather than probability sampling methods.” The documentation concludes:
“The CPI is believed to be sufficiently accurate for most practical purposes. Accuracy is best at higher levels of geographic and product aggregation due to the larger sizes of the price samples for high levels of aggregation. As well, since errors can occur in price collection and editing or in making quality adjustments to estimate "pure price change", higher level aggregate indexes are likely to be better quality than lower level indexes because any distortions due to errors are more likely to cancel out. In general accuracy is better at the Canada level for any product index in the CPI compared to the same index at the province or city level. Also, accuracy is better at the All-items or major component levels of the CPI compared to individual product indexes. Finally, the CPI is more accurate as an indicator of change over several months or a year compared to the accuracy of the price change measured from any one month to the next.”
Kesselman was correct when he observed public scepticism is widespread. I hope the argument I've made here demonstrates why the public has every right to be sceptical. I don't know if the talented UBC videographer will use this column to do a spoof of pro-HST economists, but one is warranted.
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Novabonker, don't be so sensitive. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!
It's always important to know a little about the writer when judging what they say.... It's also important to give credit to the writer when quoting them in a post. The article Novabonker quoted was written by David Shreck, an NDP hack. His economics are questionable to say the least.
Here's a little about him from wikipedia: "David D. Schreck is a one-time Member of the Legislative Assembly in the province of British Columbia in Canada and a political pundit.
Schreck represented the riding of North Vancouver-Lonsdale from 1991 to 1996 for the New Democratic Party of British Columbia. He served as parliamentary secretary to the Premier and to a Minister of Employment and Investment.
He won the election in 1991 by half a percentage point (less than 500 votes) but lost his seat in the 1996 BC election, by more than 10 per cent of the vote, to Katherine Anne Whittred. Afterwards, Schreck failed to win a councillor's seat for the District of North Vancouver and declared he would not again run in a political election. His term as MLA was his only successful bid after tries in the 1983, 1986, and 1991 provincial elections and the 1984 federal election.
He publishes political commentary on his website, StrategicThoughts.com, and appears weekly on Victoria radio station CFAX with host Murray Langdon. His background is in economics. Schreck received a degree in that field from Grinnell College in 1969 and a Ph.D. from the University of British Columbia in 1978."
Take whatever he says with his political, rather than "economic" background in mind.
On the other hand Kesselman is a Professor at Simon Fraser University and is actually an economist! Here's his biography from the Simon Fraser website: Jonathan R. Kesselman joined Simon Fraser University’s Public Policy Program in 2004, where he is a professor and holds the Canada Research Chair in Public Finance. From 1972 to 2003 he was a professor of economics at the University of British Columbia, and from 1992 to 2003 he served as director of the UBC Centre for Research on Economic and Social Policy. He was director and principal invesitgator of the SSHRC/MCRI project on "Equality/Security/Community." He has a B.A. (Hon.) from Oberlin College and a Ph.D. from M.I.T.
Professor Kesselman is a frequent commentator on issues of public finance, taxation, and economic policy. He has written widely on topics in taxation, income security, employment policy, and social insurance finance, including monographs on Financing Canadian Unemployment Insurance (1983), Rate Structure and Personal Taxation: Flat Rate or Dual Rate? (1990); General Payroll Taxes: Economics, Politics, and Design (1997); a C.D. Howe Institute study, A New Option for Retirement Savings: Tax-Prepaid Savings Plans (2001); a study for the Institute for Research on Public Policy, Tax Design for a Northern Tiger (2004), and a co-edited volume for UBC press, Dimensions of Inequality in Canada (2006). His research also appears in numerous articles in scholarly journals.
Professor Kesselman’s research has been recognized by the Reserve Bank of Australia’s Professorial Fellowship in Economic Policy (1985), the Doug Purvis Memorial Prize for Canadian economic policy research (1998 and 2007), and the Canadian Tax Foundation’s Douglas J. Sherbaniuk Distinguished Research Award (2002). He is a Research Fellow with the C.D. Howe Institute and serves on the editorial boards of Canadian Public Policy and the Canadian Tax Journal.
His research interests in recent years include the economics of tax avoidance and evasion, reform of the GST, finance of post-secondary education, the National Child Benefit, flat taxes, personal and business tax reform, First Nations taxation, federal and provincial payroll taxes, BC fiscal and taxation policies, the distributional impacts of taxes, the “brain drain,” mandatory retirement, income splitting and the basic income guarantee."
Who are you going to believe??
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Did you know that the top 20% of income earners in Canada pay 80% of the income taxes?
Because they have 80% (or more) of the income? But I agree it has nothing to do with the HST.......
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Take whatever he says with his political, rather than "economic" background in mind.
Who are you going to believe??
Actually AF, Schreck's analysis of the statistical uncertainties in the difference in difference method and CPI data Kesselman used to make his conclusions are quite valid. It's Kesselman who is using sloppy methods to support fishy conclusions for whatever personal reasons he has (wonder where he gets his research funding from?). He'd never get that analysis published in a peer reviewed economics journal.
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Really AF? So it's become personal- since you've insulted my career, my intellect, my morals and other things I shouldn't be surprised, but just disappointed.
Your morning read. A great rebuttal to Kesselman's codswallop:
http://ansak.blogspot.com/2010/04/hst-in-bc-jon-kesselman-asserts-i-rebut.html
HST in BC: Jon Kesselman asserts, I rebut
In the Vancouver Sun for today, Jon Kesselman wrote in support of the HST. I posted this to the digital edition of the paper but it doesn't seem to be sticking there, so I'm cross-posting it here:
Opponents of the HST are accused of being hysterical, ignorant and blindly acting in opposition to their own interests but such name-calling is not helping this debate in the least.
Decrying lack of transparency is not hysteria. Objecting to politicians turning 180 degrees from a not-very-well-publicized answer during a campaign is not hysteria. Alarm because governments are listening to some elite economists instead of the voters who sent them to Victoria is not hysteria.
Notwithstanding that Mr. Kesselman's remarks may be the last word in wisdom on the HST, the failure of the government to walk through this reasonably and transparently is serious enough that I will sign the petition and vote against the HST -- and in doing so, I will object in the strongest possible terms to anyone who calls it hysteria.
Fears that HST will drive more of the economy underground are well-founded. Whenever I deal with an independent contractor whose services are taxable under the GST, I still regularly get quoted a cash price -- clear evidence that collecting, tracking, paying and being rebated the GST is unacceptably burdensome to the lower end of the economy. The HST will only make this worse. If opposing HST can be construed as hysterical, cheerleading for it can just as easily be construed as naive and out of touch with ordinary folks. I don't see Mr. Kesselman dealing with that risk, at all.
As for the savings of business that will be passed along to the consumer once they begin to flow, did any of these savings result after the GST came in? I don't remember the price falling and I expect the businessmen to pocket the difference again when the HST arrives. That's what happens to savings passed along to all businesses at the same time. That may be cynical, but it's not hysteria.
PST, whatever its ills to B2B commerce in BC are, has the compassionate, enlightened, valuable exemptions on groceries, books, school supplies and childrens' clothes. GST has no such exemption -- one of the reasons I still oppose it -- and HST will not either. Maybe this exemption no longer has value to BC's families but if that's the case, they should come under public scrutiny and widespread debate before we turn and walk away from them. If opposing HST is hysterical, supporting it strongly can be construed as heartless, uncaring and ignorant of the needs of the least well-off families of the province.
Of course these families will receive HST rebates (which will, hopefully be at least twice what the GST rebates are now) but that requires the knowledge that the rebate should be applied for and the freedom to save up that rebate to apply to the no-longer-tax-exempt necessaries that need to be bought every week of the year. Anyone who knows such families understands how unreasonable it is to believe that this "no addded burden" for greater benefit. Unawareness of this segment of society isn't just heartless and uncompassionate, it's willfully so, and therefore an even more culpable condition.
Maybe HST is better for the province. The way the Liberals are bringing it in and imposing it on us is even more heavy-handed and anti-democratic than the introduction of the GST was under the over-sized majority enjoyed by the Mulroney government. If the government of British Columbia thinks this is such a good idea, the time to convince BCers of this is before negotiations with Ottawa began, not as the regimen is about to be imposed on us in a manner that is impossible to escape from for a period of five years.
This is not the mandate they earned in the last election -- in fact, given one (to my knowledge) campaign-trail answer before the last election, the mandate runs the other way. Scrap the HST and make sure we want you to bring it in or as surely as Bill Vander Zalm and the NDP are the most unlikely of political allies, I will sign this petition and vote to defeat the current HST when the question is put to me.
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Actually AF, Schreck's analysis of the statistical uncertainties in the difference in difference method and CPI data Kesselman used to make his conclusions are quite valid. It's Kesselman who is using sloppy methods to support fishy conclusions for whatever personal reasons he has (wonder where he gets his research funding from?). He'd never get that analysis published in a peer reviewed economics journal.
I'm not qualified to debate this with you and if you provided your educational background we could also determine whether you are qualified to debate this....
My point was; Who are you going to believe? Shreck or Kesselman
Shreck: A political NDP hack who majored in economics back in 1969 and has spent the rest of his life working in various social services positions while trying to make a career as a politician on both a federal, provincial and municipal level with limited success.
Kesselman: An individual who is not only educated as an economist, but has a long resume showing his entire career being dedicated to economics. He is recognized around the world for his knowledge in the field of taxation.
Knowing the background of the individuals does a lot in determining the credibility of their analysis.
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I work at a University and can tell you that some instructors, especially business ones, just purchase their course material rather than try to develop it. They generally don't get to concerned about the content neither. Accounting is probably one area in the business program that actually is credible and consistant. The rest are harder to measure in terms of real outcomes. :-\
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Your morning read. A great rebuttal to Kesselman's codswallop:
http://ansak.blogspot.com/2010/04/hst-in-bc-jon-kesselman-asserts-i-rebut.html
Rather an old report wouldn't you say? A lot of changes to the HST since then....
The argument that the HST will drive more business under the table may be true. However the government still collects their HST because the contractor has paid the HST on the materials and cannot claim them as a rebate unless he declares the income. In the end the government may not get all their taxes, but they get more than under the PST.
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Here's a list of countries around the world with HST/VAT style tax systems. Our 10% rate is pretty reasonable compared to most of these.
Think about all the stuff you see in the stores made in these countries - any wonder why they can produce such competitive products?
Hint - their HST style of tax helps them to be competitive and sell successfully into our markets.
Argentina 21%VAT
Brazil 17% - 25%VAT
Chile 19%VAT
Colombia 16%VAT
Venezuela 12%VAT
Austria 20%VAT
Belgium 21%VAT
Czech Republic 20%VAT
Denmark 25%VAT
Finland 23%VAT
France 19.6%VAT
Germany 19%VAT
Greece 23%VAT
Ireland 21%VAT
Italy 20%VAT
Netherlands 19%VAT
Norway 25%VAT
Spain 18%VAT
Sweden 25%VAT
Switzerland 8%VAT
United Kingdom 20%VAT
China 17%VAT
India 12.5%VAT
Indonesia 10%VAT
Japan 5%VAT
Philippines 12%VAT
Singapore 7%VAT
South Korea 10%VAT
Taiwan 5%VAT
Thailand 7%VAT
Ethiopia 15%VAT
Kenya 16%VAT
Morocco 20%VAT
Mozambique 17%VAT
Nigeria 5%VAT
South Africa 14%VAT
Sudan 10%VAT
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I was in Anchorage last week - 0% Federal/State sales tax.
I bought a lot of stuff.
As an aside, it was very refreshing to pay EXACTLY what was on the price tag.
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The only reason Alaska has a 0% sales tax is due to Oil/Gas revenue it gets:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/20/high-gas-prices-boon-alaska-budget/
Same as Alberta - which by the way won't last too much longer:
http://www.canada.com/news/Alberta+budget+shows+rising+tide/4342361/story.html
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I'm not qualified to debate this with you and if you provided your educational background we could also determine whether you are qualified to debate this....
My point was; Who are you going to believe? Shreck or Kesselman
Knowing the background of the individuals does a lot in determining the credibility of their analysis.
It's a very simple stats issue that you should be able to understand AF.....if you took the effort to read both Kesselman's full report and Shreck's critique, you'd see the flaw in how Kesselman selected time periods to compare....his conclusion doesn't hold up when you look at the longer time series. Rather than relying on "reputations" as your sole source of knowledge, try using the old grey matter for yourself.
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Here's a list of countries around the world with HST/VAT style tax systems. Our 10% rate is pretty reasonable compared to most of these.
Think about all the stuff you see in the stores made in these countries - any wonder why they can produce such competitive products?
Hint - their HST style of tax helps them to be competitive and sell successfully into our markets.
ROTFL...that's a hilarious conclusion......maybe it'll solve world hunger too!
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It's a very simple stats issue that you should be able to understand AF.....if you took the effort to read both Kesselman's full report and Shreck's critique, you'd see the flaw in how Kesselman selected time periods to compare....his conclusion doesn't hold up when you look at the longer time series. Rather than relying on "reputations" as your sole source of knowledge, try using the old grey matter for yourself.
The biggest problem with Shrecks report is that he criticized Kesselman's findings without showing how he would calculate the effects of HST. I could paraphrase his report in one sentence: "HST is bad, so Kesselman's report supporting HST is flawed". It's a theme that runs through out the whole anti-HST campaign.
The second problem with Shreck's analysis is; 30 years of CPI data is rather pointless when the HST has only been around for 1 year. I suggest that is why Kesselman used the short time period.
Of course that's the difference between an actual economist and a political hack posing as an economist... ::)
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Received the HST ballots today. Big X's going in the correct space. ;D ;D ;D
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Here's the latest from StatsCanada. BC has the second lowest rate of inflation in Canada. That means our prices have risen the second least, in spite of the HST.
Looks like those rich businesses are not pocketing the savings... they are actually passing them on to the consumer.
May 2011 12 month inflation rates:
Canada 3.7
Newfoundland and Labrador 3.7
Prince Edward Island 3.9
Nova Scotia 4.6
New Brunswick 4.1
Quebec 3.5
Ontario 4.0
Manitoba 3.9
Saskatchewan 3.4
Alberta 2.8
British Columbia 3.1
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Here's the latest from StatsCanada. BC has the second lowest rate of inflation in Canada. That means our prices have risen the second least, in spite of the HST.
Looks like those rich businesses are not pocketing the savings... they are actually passing them on to the consumer.
May 2011 12 month inflation rates:
Canada 3.7
Newfoundland and Labrador 3.7
Prince Edward Island 3.9
Nova Scotia 4.6
New Brunswick 4.1
Quebec 3.5
Ontario 4.0
Manitoba 3.9
Saskatchewan 3.4
Alberta 2.8
British Columbia 3.1
And what prices have you seen come down? And since you\re reading stats- look back some months beforehand and see where BC was in relation to the rest of the pack . eems BC and Ontario had the highest rate .Nice try, but lacking. The NO side is starting to sound desperate......
AND YOU GUYS BETTER LAY OFF KESSELMAN! THAT MAN IS A GAWD! HE"S NEVER MANIPULATED DATA TO SUIT HIS VIEWS! HE'S NEVER BEEN WRONG! and he got paid how many thousands of dollars for a couple of pages of codswallop?
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Jealousy will get you nowhere....
Did you know that the top 20% of income earners in Canada pay 80% of the income taxes?
In the US the top 20% pay 88% of the income taxes. The top 50% pay 97% of the income taxes.
Apparently the bottom 80% of the income earners want the rich to pay all the taxes?
But what does that have to do with the HST discussion?
AF?
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/let-them-eat-cake.jpg)
Oh - don't forget the carbon tax takes another bite out of the wallet tomorrow.
Unhappy Birthday to the HST - no happy returns!
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And since you\re reading stats- look back some months beforehand and see where BC was in relation to the rest of the pack . eems BC and Ontario had the highest rate .
Looking back at inflation results means nothing. Current inflation rates and trends is the only inflation rates that are relevant.
Of course if we elect another NDP government we have the opportunity to be number 10 again like we were from 1992 - 2000. Chanting "We're number 10! We're number 10!" just doesn't have the same ring as saying "We're number 2"! ;D
Real Per Capita GDP Growth 1992 - 2000
Nfld: 33.6%
SK: 27.3%
AB: 27%
ON: 24.2%
PQ: 22.3%
NB: 21.6%
PEI: 18.6%
MB: 17.5%
NS: 16.2%
BC: 5.3%
[Source: Statistics Canada, Provincial Economic Accounts, February, 2000.)
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Gonna hop in once again, and propose a theory...
I believe that the reason AF and NB are debating so completely is that they are both rational, intelligent people and the statements that they make are transparent reflections of their experiences. The things they have said, however deeply rooted in personal experience they may be, are coming from entirely different worlds: AF from his financial management background, NB from his entrepreneurial background. As a disclaimer, I am not implying at any point that one is superior in stance or in vocation.
I suppose this is part of the issue of the HST, isn't it? NB goes to work everyday, delivering a quality product/service that has, in the past, always provided him with ample customer traffic. However, after the initiation of the HST, he has seen a noticeable drop in the number of families he services - only a fool wouldn't notice this correlation! Conversely, AF views the numbers and statistics as he has been trained to do, and always has. He can see the numbers in front of his face, and they say that this HST is a good thing! So...er...who's right?
Could it be that...both are??? *Gasp* :o
Perhaps this magical tax has both a negative impact on the entrepreneur in addition to a positive impact on the "big picture". Perhaps this is what we should be discussing - whether we value one more than another, or whether we are not striking the balance between the two.
Just my thoughts,
Don't kill me...
John
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Gonna hop in once again, and propose a theory...
I believe that the reason AF and NB are debating so completely is that they are both rational, intelligent people and the statements that they make are transparent reflections of their experiences. The things they have said, however deeply rooted in personal experience they may be, are coming from entirely different worlds: AF from his financial management background, NB from his entrepreneurial background. As a disclaimer, I am not implying at any point that one is superior in stance or in vocation.
I suppose this is part of the issue of the HST, isn't it? NB goes to work everyday, delivering a quality product/service that has, in the past, always provided him with ample customer traffic. However, after the initiation of the HST, he has seen a noticeable drop in the number of families he services - only a fool wouldn't notice this correlation! Conversely, AF views the numbers and statistics as he has been trained to do, and always has. He can see the numbers in front of his face, and they say that this HST is a good thing! So...er...who's right?
Could it be that...both are??? *Gasp* :o
Perhaps this magical tax has both a negative impact on the entrepreneur in addition to a positive impact on the "big picture". Perhaps this is what we should be discussing - whether we value one more than another, or whether we are not striking the balance between the two.
Just my thoughts,
Don't kill me...
John
Hate guys that agree with me, but side with the other guy as well! ;D
You make some good points and sounds like you have objectively done your homework. I just hope that like you, people totally understand what they are voting for before they mark their ballot.
Although I see people becoming more rational as they learn more about the 2 choices, most of the people that are adamantly against the HST, are basing their decision on: Campbell is a liar, Campbell introduced the HST, therefore the HST = "BAD".
We have the second lowest income tax rate in Canada, thanks to the Campbell government. Can you imagine if people used the following logic: Campbell is a liar, Campbell introduced lower income taxes, therefore lower income taxes = "BAD".
We have the second strongest economy in Canada, coming back from the worst economy in Canada under the NDP. Can you imagine if people used the following logic: Campbell is a liar, Campbell turned our economy from #10 in Canada to #2 in Canada, therefore being #2 in economic growth = "BAD".
You get my point.....
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Not old enough to vote ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hate guys that agree with me, but side with the other guy as well! ;D
You make some good points and sounds like you have objectively done your homework. I just hope that like you, people totally understand what they are voting for before they mark their ballot.
Although I see people becoming more rational as they learn more about the 2 choices, most of the people that are adamantly against the HST, are basing their decision on: Campbell is a liar, Campbell introduced the HST, therefore the HST = "BAD".
We have the second lowest income tax rate in Canada, thanks to the Campbell government. Can you imagine if people used the following logic: Campbell is a liar, Campbell introduced lower income taxes, therefore lower income taxes = "BAD".
We have the second strongest economy in Canada, coming back from the worst economy in Canada under the NDP. Can you imagine if people used the following logic: Campbell is a liar, Campbell turned our economy from #10 in Canada to #2 in Canada, therefore being #2 in economic growth = "BAD".
You get my point.....
While Campbell's Liberals have proudly claimed responsibility for BC's economic recovery, what they can be truly proud of is the way their policies have also created the greatest gap between the rich and the poor right here in BC. Their policies have seen to it that the richest in BC have benefited the most from this recovery, while the poorest of us have only fallen further behind. The HST, like their other tax policies, will only see this gap deepen. That will be their legacy.
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While Campbell's Liberals have proudly claimed responsibility for BC's economic recovery, what they can be truly proud of is the way their policies have also created the greatest gap between the rich and the poor right here in BC. Their policies have seen to it that the richest in BC have benefited the most from this recovery, while the poorest of us have only fallen further behind. The HST, like their other tax policies, will only see this gap deepen. That will be their legacy.
I'm sure you can do a little better than repeating a bunch of NDP rhetoric! Why don't you at least post a link to the NDP website? It would give some credibility to what you posted. ???
If you took the time to understand the HST you would realize that the people that actually benefit from the HST are the poor and the elderly. They receive the HST credits and they don't buy many things that HST is charged on. The rich are the hardest hit by the HST because they don't get any credits and they buy lots of stuff that they pay HST on.
If it wasn't for the rich, there would be a lot more poor! Simple economics. Without rich people investing money into businesses, no jobs would be created. No jobs means no incomes, which usually results in poverty.
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I'm sure you can do a little better than repeating a bunch of NDP rhetoric! Why don't you at least post a link to the NDP website? It would give some credibility to what you posted. ???
Fraser Institute bovine scatology??????
If you took the time to understand the HST you would realize that the people that actually benefit from the HST are the poor and the elderly. They receive the HST credits and they don't buy many things that HST is charged on. The rich are the hardest hit by the HST because they don't get any credits and they buy lots of stuff that they pay HST on.
It's always good to hit the middle class for more money to give to faceless corporations. ::)The people that benefit the most are already well off.The rich have the most.And BTW- I guess you didn't read how the "tax breaks" don't keep pace with the tax fingers. But you knew that already....
If it wasn't for the rich, there would be a lot more poor! Simple economics. Without rich people investing money into businesses, no jobs would be created. No jobs means no incomes, which usually results in poverty.
Already we have one of the lowest corporate tax rates in North America and the world. Gifting another 2 billion to business on the backs of the public is greed gone wild.If it wasn't for the poor, there would be a lot more rich. Crappy paying jobs and overtaxing the working families also results in poverty. And your theory is so full of holes it's beyond sad- we have and still have the highest child poverty rate in the country and lead in seniors poverty as well. But we've got money for corporate tax goodies. Does that instill a sense of pride in my province?
You refuse to see or even acknowledge the carnage the HST has created in some small business's. I talked to another poster here AND HIS NUMBERS ARE OFF AS WELL, same story from a supplier, since the introduction. Since we're small business, there isn't any corporate welfare of government lolly, just less money, reducing hours or laying off employees we've spent time and effort in training, expansion plans put on hold and lives disrupted.
I readily admit to calling Campbell a liar- in fact, look at the Liberal record. You could fertilize the entire Fraser Valley with the broken promises and outright lies they've flung around. It comes down to a simple matter of trust and respect. I (and a few others with a stronger sense of morals) don't respect or trust liars OF ANY POLITICAL STRIPE and you seem amazed about that. Do you accept that from your business colleagues? Why?
I don't expect an answer as you skate away when things don't suit your purpose.
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It is impossible for government to put tax policy in place that meets with everyone's approval. Government's responsibility is to strike a balance between generating the revenue it needs, while ensuring that overall economic growth is enhanced.
While I sympathize with anyone experiencing some hardship as a result of the introduction of the HST, I know that for the vast majority of businesses in BC, the HST is a breath of fresh air as it allows them to be more competitive with businesses outside of BC. The poorest individuals are not negatively effected, and the middle class and rich can afford it. When the HST is reduced to 10% it will have a positive effect on virtually everyone.
It would be illogical to implement a tax policy designed to support a minority of businesses that are experiencing slow downs as a result of the HST at the expense of the majority of businesses. Unfortunately the PST system has been doing that. The PST has been hurting BC businesses by making them less competitive on a global basis.
All I have heard from the anti-HST crowd is attacks on the HST that were based on; "I hate Campbell and the Liberals" and "It hurts me, that's all that matters" .
I have always looked at the HST with a "What is best for BC" perspective.
Yes, the government could have done a better job in introducing the HST and the HST is costing me more money..... But in the end I support the HST because in my study of the tax, I am convinced that it is a better tax policy than the previous PST policy. My posts have all the reasons why I reached that conclusion.
Happy voting! :)
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I'm sure you can do a little better than repeating a bunch of NDP rhetoric! Why don't you at least post a link to the NDP website? It would give some credibility to what you posted. ???
If you took the time to understand the HST you would realize that the people that actually benefit from the HST are the poor and the elderly. They receive the HST credits and they don't buy many things that HST is charged on. The rich are the hardest hit by the HST because they don't get any credits and they buy lots of stuff that they pay HST on.
If it wasn't for the rich, there would be a lot more poor! Simple economics. Without rich people investing money into businesses, no jobs would be created. No jobs means no incomes, which usually results in poverty.
yeah...nice try AF. Trying to tie my comment to the NDP to try to discredit me is not fooling anyone. My data comes from Statscan and has been quoted in every major newspaper in the country. It is no secret who has benefited from the Liberal's "economic turnaround." If business owners reinvested their profits into their workforce (in terms of better wages and benefits) then their would be more disposable income for the purchase of the product or service they are selling, further stimulating the economy. THAT is simple economics. However, the individual greed of the wealthy businessman to hoard as much of the profit as possible, has proven time and time again to outweigh any logical and reasonable economic incentive to redistribute that wealth. This is why we need governments to tax the wealthy in the first place, since the rich are clearly not about to do so themselves, even though it would make economic sense to do so. The bottom line is that the wealthy are only interested in making more wealth for themselves and any "economic" benefit to the poor is minimized to ensure they make as much as possible while keeping the system going. This is not sustainable and is doom to fail. When 4% of the population controls 96% of the wealth, revolution is inevitable.
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However, the individual greed of the wealthy businessman to hoard as much of the profit as possible, has proven time and time again to outweigh any logical and reasonable economic incentive to redistribute that wealth.
You're making it sound like businessmen have an obligation to redistribute their wealth. They don't. It they want to give out some money to the poor or the such, power to them. Nothing wrong with being generous - when its done via free will. But they dont have an obligation to.
When 4% of the population controls 96% of the wealth, revolution is inevitable.
Lol. I"m sure that's what the russians were thinking too... look what that got them. A nice little communist state where things were just so pleasant /sarcasm. Anyone who knows anyone who lived, or has lived under the USSR or the such, will know that "redistributions of wealth" never end well. Basically, its a way for the less well off to steal from the more well off.
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Your morning read AF - This has to do with wealth distribution in Canada. Notice how the top quintile has increased while the bottom earners have decreased or stayed static. It was written by those famous communists at the TD bank. Note the vast amount held by a tiny percentage of the population. There's a TON more regarding the same thing I can dredge up easily. Now that the facts are in the open, your claim that wealth division is "NDP rhetoric" turns out to be be a lot of hot air and Fraser Institute cow cookies.
What's next? You build it, I'll tear it down with salient facts. ;) :o ;D
http://www.td.com/economics/special/dt1206_wealth.jsp
I noticed you sidestepped those little inconvenient facts about child and seniors poverty in your lavish praise of the Liebrals..... Any comment? Or just another exercise in skating away?
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More stuff for ya AF - All saying the same thing - that your NDP propaganda theory might not hold up to the light. ;)
(next pile of spurious please)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/archives/article682203.ece
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/barrie-mckenna/gap-between-rich-and-poor-wont-be-closing-any-time-soon/article1740237/
http://www.straight.com/article-364394/vancouver/income-gap-may-harm-all
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2010/12/06/GapKiller/
http://www.vitalsignscanada.ca/research/2010_5gaprichpoor-e.html
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yeah...nice try AF. Trying to tie my comment to the NDP to try to discredit me is not fooling anyone. My data comes from Statscan and has been quoted in every major newspaper in the country. It is no secret who has benefited from the Liberal's "economic turnaround." If business owners reinvested their profits into their workforce (in terms of better wages and benefits) then their would be more disposable income for the purchase of the product or service they are selling, further stimulating the economy. THAT is simple economics. However, the individual greed of the wealthy businessman to hoard as much of the profit as possible, has proven time and time again to outweigh any logical and reasonable economic incentive to redistribute that wealth. This is why we need governments to tax the wealthy in the first place, since the rich are clearly not about to do so themselves, even though it would make economic sense to do so. The bottom line is that the wealthy are only interested in making more wealth for themselves and any "economic" benefit to the poor is minimized to ensure they make as much as possible while keeping the system going. This is not sustainable and is doom to fail. When 4% of the population controls 96% of the wealth, revolution is inevitable.
The problem with your whole premise of blaming the rich is you totally absolve the "poor" of any responsibility. There has always been rich and poor and there always will be rich and poor. The more you try and legislate a "sharing" of the wealth the more you will remove the incentive for all of society to excel. The end result is an over all poorer society. Human nature will always gravitate to the lowest common denominator.
There all all sorts of examples of this. Take a very controversial (to some) example of a union shop. Because of the "negotiated" contracts there is no incentive for an employee to excel because there is no reward for doing so. Peer pressure from the lowest producers causes the highest producers to cut back on their efforts so as to not show up the average or poor producers. Union rules usually prevent one class of employees from performing the duties of another class of employee. This creates a need for more employees and reduces efficiency of the organization. Productivity suffers and the business becomes mediocre.
We are all to a very large extent masters of our own destiny. Especially in a country like ours, everyone has a relatively equal opportunity to excel. Rather than focusing on the rich and how you can take away their hard earned and well deserved wealth to give to the poor, focus instead on why the poor are poor and the rich got rich?
Why don't the poor put the same effort into getting an education like the rich did? They have the same access. Student loans are more available to the poor than to the rich.
Why don't the poor save their money rather than spending every penny they earn. This would give them a pool of capital that they could invest and they could become rich as well.
Why don't the poor make sacrifices and invest their pool of capital into a start up business? Yes it could fail, but it could also be successful and make them rich.
There is no economic sense whatsoever to redistribute wealth!
All that does is create a poorer society by moving it closer to the lowest common denominator (poverty). It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for the rich to be taxed higher in order to give to the poor. The poor will just squander the money, they will not invest it. They won't create any jobs. Through their spending they may help the retail business sector in the short term, but over time the policy of redistributing wealth will make the rich poorer, resulting in fewer opportunities to tax them. There will be less investment, fewer jobs. etc, etc. Society as a whole will become poorer.
As Bavarian Raven so succinctly wrote: "Basically, its a way for the less well off to steal from the more well off." That's all we need; a society with more thieves! ::)
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I would say that some semblance of wealth redistribution is appropriate, but not complete and utter redistribution. If I were to state it one way or another, I would agree with AF on this one.
J
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cant really disagree with that AF, bang on IMO, im not a union guy, nice post....holmes*
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The problem with your whole premise of blaming the rich is you totally absolve the "poor" of any responsibility. There has always been rich and poor and there always will be rich and poor. The more you try and legislate a "sharing" of the wealth the more you will remove the incentive for all of society to excel. The end result is an over all poorer society. Human nature will always gravitate to the lowest common denominator.
There all all sorts of examples of this. Take a very controversial (to some) example of a union shop. Because of the "negotiated" contracts there is no incentive for an employee to excel because there is no reward for doing so. Peer pressure from the lowest producers causes the highest producers to cut back on their efforts so as to not show up the average or poor producers. Union rules usually prevent one class of employees from performing the duties of another class of employee. This creates a need for more employees and reduces efficiency of the organization. Productivity suffers and the business becomes mediocre.
We are all to a very large extent masters of our own destiny. Especially in a country like ours, everyone has a relatively equal opportunity to excel. Rather than focusing on the rich and how you can take away their hard earned and well deserved wealth to give to the poor, focus instead on why the poor are poor and the rich got rich?
Why don't the poor put the same effort into getting an education like the rich did? They have the same access. Student loans are more available to the poor than to the rich.
Why don't the poor save their money rather than spending every penny they earn. This would give them a pool of capital that they could invest and they could become rich as well.
Why don't the poor make sacrifices and invest their pool of capital into a start up business? Yes it could fail, but it could also be successful and make them rich.
There is no economic sense whatsoever to redistribute wealth!
All that does is create a poorer society by moving it closer to the lowest common denominator (poverty). It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for the rich to be taxed higher in order to give to the poor. The poor will just squander the money, they will not invest it. They won't create any jobs. Through their spending they may help the retail business sector in the short term, but over time the policy of redistributing wealth will make the rich poorer, resulting in fewer opportunities to tax them. There will be less investment, fewer jobs. etc, etc. Society as a whole will become poorer.
As Bavarian Raven so succinctly wrote: "Basically, its a way for the less well off to steal from the more well off." That's all we need; a society with more thieves! ::)
Now the truth comes out. This is the real Liberal agenda.
Why don't the poor make sacrifices and invest their pool of capital into a start up business?
What "pool of capital" are you talking about. They are poor. There is no pool of capital to invest. They do not have enough to feed their children properly and clothes them properly, how are they to save it, let alone invest in a business. Their wages are so low they cannot keep up with inflation. I am talking about the ones that have jobs. Forget the poor SOBs that cannot find work.
The poor will just squander the money, they will not invest it.
I do not call spending every penny you have on shelter, food, and clothing "squandering", but I can see that you do. Your true colours are shining through.
Why don't the poor put the same effort into getting an education like the rich did? They have the same access. Student loans are more available to the poor than to the rich.
There are only so many post secondary seats available and these go to the students with the highest grades, not just those with the money. So while a student loan may give a poor but bright student a chance to get an education, they must also have the grades to get in the door. This is why the Liberals are hell bent on destroying public education in this province. After all, if everyone went out and got an education and started a business then there would be no unskilled labour to work in your shop. The capitalist system NEEDS poor unskilled labour to function. By destroying public education in BC, they are ensuring there are enough seats for their own children in the private schools to get that coveted education.
There all all sorts of examples of this. Take a very controversial (to some) example of a union shop. Because of the "negotiated" contracts there is no incentive for an employee to excel because there is no reward for doing so. Peer pressure from the lowest producers causes the highest producers to cut back on their efforts so as to not show up the average or poor producers. Union rules usually prevent one class of employees from performing the duties of another class of employee. This creates a need for more employees and reduces efficiency of the organization. Productivity suffers and the business becomes mediocre.
The bottom line is simple. If the rich business owner was not so greedy and "invested" in his workforce in the way of decent wages and benefits there would be no such things as unions as there would be no need for collective bargaining. This is simple history lesson.
focus instead on why the poor are poor and the rich got rich?
The rich are rich because they are greedy and have gotten rich by gouging their employees. If they had reinvested the profits of the company into their employees then they would not be as rich and the poor would not be as poor and there would be no unions and we would not need to tax them more than anyone else.
I am not advocating the Revolution. I am simply expecting it.
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Now the truth comes out. This is the real Liberal agenda.
What "pool of capital" are you talking about. They are poor. There is no pool of capital to invest. They do not have enough to feed their children properly and clothes them properly, how are they to save it, let alone invest in a business. Their wages are so low they cannot keep up with inflation. I am talking about the ones that have jobs. Forget the poor SOBs that cannot find work.
I do not call spending every penny you have on shelter, food, and clothing "squandering", but I can see that you do. Your true colours are shining through.
There are only so many post secondary seats available and these go to the students with the highest grades, not just those with the money. So while a student loan may give a poor but bright student a chance to get an education, they must also have the grades to get in the door. This is why the Liberals are hell bent on destroying public education in this province. After all, if everyone went out and got an education and started a business then there would be no unskilled labour to work in your shop. The capitalist system NEEDS poor unskilled labour to function. By destroying public education in BC, they are ensuring there are enough seats for their own children in the private schools to get that coveted education.
The bottom line is simple. If the rich business owner was not so greedy and "invested" in his workforce in the way of decent wages and benefits there would be no such things as unions as there would be no need for collective bargaining. This is simple history lesson.
The rich are rich because they are greedy and have gotten rich by gouging their employees. If they had reinvested the profits of the company into their employees then they would not be as rich and the poor would not be as poor and there would be no unions and we would not need to tax them more than anyone else.
I am not advocating the Revolution. I am simply expecting it.
I'm not too sure why you say this - take a good hard look at the way that Google operates itself, and I think you'll see a phenomenally profitable company that treats its employees like gold! This seems to reflect more your experiences rather than the reality - the days of the industrial revolution are over. If you treat your employees poorly, they will leave. Some may find it more difficult, some may not, but the vast majority will. In some such organizations, the pros outweigh the cons for the poorly-treated employee, but this tends to lead towards a rotating workforce.
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I am not advocating the Revolution. I am simply expecting it.
I can't imagine how hopeless you must feel looking at things from your perspective.
We are so totally far apart that I wouldn't even attempt to debate the points you've made. I would be curious to hear about some examples of a society that has applied your fixes and the results.
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I'm not too sure why you say this - take a good hard look at the way that Google operates itself, and I think you'll see a phenomenally profitable company that treats its employees like gold! This seems to reflect more your experiences rather than the reality - the days of the industrial revolution are over. If you treat your employees poorly, they will leave. Some may find it more difficult, some may not, but the vast majority will. In some such organizations, the pros outweigh the cons for the poorly-treated employee, but this tends to lead towards a rotating workforce.
Intelligent comments! I can't believe you are only 17.
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I'm not too sure why you say this - take a good hard look at the way that Google operates itself, and I think you'll see a phenomenally profitable company that treats its employees like gold! This seems to reflect more your experiences rather than the reality - the days of the industrial revolution are over. If you treat your employees poorly, they will leave. Some may find it more difficult, some may not, but the vast majority will. In some such organizations, the pros outweigh the cons for the poorly-treated employee, but this tends to lead towards a rotating workforce.
Google is precisely the way a business SHOULD be run. I say that because, unfortunately, they are the exception not the rule. While I would normally shy from such blatant generalizations, you need only consider with whom I am discoursing, and you will see why. Happily, when the rest of the business world begins to act socially responsible, then ours will be that country that AF wants to see.
I can't imagine how hopeless you must feel looking at things from your perspective.
I feel totally hopeless as I see this government passing illegal (read unconstitutional) legislation that strips workers collective bargaining rights of workers and when the courts upholds the rights of workers (BC Supreme Court 13 April 2011), this government proceeds to further erode collective agreements. This is being done at the same time they are voting themselves hefty pay raises. This is the same draconian use of legislation happening all over North America and the rest of the world. It is clear with whom this government has aligned itself, so you will have to forgive people if they refuse to trust what this government has "promised".
You keep talking about a 10% HST, and yet it is still 12% and many people simply do not trust that it will ever be lowered. This government has broken too many promises to be trusted. It does not matter how bad the previous NDP government was (I have no love for that government). It only matters how bad the current government is.
I would be curious to hear about some examples of a society that has applied your fixes and the results.
Sweden seems to have come the closest. They have one of the strongest economies in the world and they have the most even distribution of wealth of any industrialized country (and 70% of their workforce is unionized...imagine that). They seem to have found a balance between economic imperatives and social responsibility. Why is it so hard for us to do so?
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The reality of the world of business is, in my mind, this: There are so many different organizations offering nearly identical products and services that the key to being successful is A) Brand identity B) Exceptional customer service, and C) treatment of employees and customers in a similarly commendable manner.
If you cannot provide a product that is superior, or at least is perceived in such a way, and do it while providing the best of treatment for your staff and your customers, you will not prosper, perhaps survive.
J
Also, AF: Thank you! Just trying to keep my ears open
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Google IS a great model, but it can afford to be because it has nearly a monopoly in online advertising. It is one of the most profitable large companies in the US, has no debt and over $36 billion cash in their bank account. No other company can afford to do for it's employees what Google does! Most companies are in very competitive environments and must manage their businesses differently.
I agree that Sweden seems to have a good model. The reasons are not what you think.
Swedes have a fantastic work ethic, matched by few other cultures. The reason there appears to be a "fairer" distribution of wealth is that the "poor" have the drive to get educated, work hard, and as a result there are fewer that fall into the "poor" category. Their unions are a cooperative group that care about the long term welfare of their employers, not just their own demands. All of these things contribute to a perceived better distribution of wealth as well as a strong economy.
China and Taiwan have some of the lowest poverty rates in the world but if you asked any of the "poor" in Canada if they would want to move there, I am quite certain what their answer would be. Probably because they would have to work hard.
I haven't met many "poor" Canadian Swedes, Chinese or Taiwanese. Given their culture I wonder if it has something to do with how they embrace our free enterprise system.
Too bad more Canadians didn't do the same.
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Google IS a great model, but it can afford to be because it has nearly a monopoly in online advertising. It is one of the most profitable large companies in the US, has no debt and over $36 billion cash in their bank account. No other company can afford to do for it's employees what Google does! Most companies are in very competitive environments and must manage their businesses differently.
This is completely accurate, but one must consider which came first - their rise to power, or their treatment of their employee, top to bottom?
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I agree that Sweden seems to have a good model. The reasons are not what you think.
Swedes have a fantastic work ethic, matched by few other cultures. The reason there appears to be a "fairer" distribution of wealth is that the "poor" have the drive to get educated, work hard, and as a result there are fewer that fall into the "poor" category.
...or perhaps it is because the Swedes benefit from an extensive social welfare system, which provides universal childcare and maternity and paternity leave, a ceiling on health care costs, old-age pensions, and sick leave, among other benefits. Perhaps the reason why their "poor" have "the drive to get educated" is the fact their education system, including post secondary and vocational training, is free and completely subsidized by taxes. It is not just their unions that "are a cooperative group that care about the long term welfare of their employers, not just their own demands" it seems this CAN be a two way street. The sooner Canadian businessmen see this the better.
You talk about Human nature "always gravitat[ing] to the lowest common denominator" but that is precisely what drives our market economy. Your need to compete with multinational companies that exploit workers in third world developing countries is what drives the poor treatment of western workers. This laisez-faire approach is what allows the justification that "no other company can afford to do for it's employees what Google does... [because] Most companies are in very competitive environments and must manage their businesses differently." Our economy is all about the lowest common denominator...do not blame the "poor" for this. This is all due to the greed of the richest among us.
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Perhaps the reason why their "poor" have "the drive to get educated" is the fact their education system, including post secondary and vocational training, is free and completely subsidized by taxes.
Seeing as i am in my final year of university, I would have loved free education. But, imo, too many people would take advantage of that here and not appreciate it properly. Many canadians (not saying all, there are a lot of hard working people here), but many canadians just dont have the work ethics you see in Swedish or German or Chinese or Japanese families. Therego, I could easily see the system being abused. Sadly. That being said, the system we have right now is not bad... it could be better, but it works imo.
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Why don't the poor put the same effort into getting an education like the rich did? They have the same access. Student loans are more available to the poor than to the rich.
Maybe they want to sleep inside, eat and wear clothing.Have you seen how much post secondary education costs have increased since the Liberals came to power? Inconvenient facts always get in the way of a good spin.
Why don't the poor save their money rather than spending every penny they earn. This would give them a pool of capital that they could invest and they could become rich as well.
Because we all know there's so much money left over from 8 buck an hour jobs - Here's a challenge AF - try living one month on that princely sum of minimum wage and see how much is left at the end.
Why don't the poor make sacrifices and invest their pool of capital into a start up business? Yes it could fail, but it could also be successful and make them rich.
Yep - don't eat and save your money! There isn't anything to sacrifice Marie Antoinette
All that does is create a poorer society by moving it closer to the lowest common denominator (poverty).
The poor will just squander the money, they will not invest it. They won't create any jobs.
Your prejudice comes festering to the top like a giant boil. The mantra- keep the poor, well, poor. I'm sure the working poor appreciate your benevolence.
Again AF - IF we've made such wonderful strides under the Liberals as a society- WHY do we have the highest child and senior's poverty rates teamed up with the lowest minimum wage in the country? I'll continue to ask this every time I see a post with your name on it because I can't understand how that helps our society and think you might enlighten us peasants
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Well it is impossible to say that one system might work here, or we should adopt so-and-so's system, etc. because we live in an entirely different country. Everybody's been happy to hop on the Sweden-wagon (say that five times, try not to grin!) but what you probably don't realize is that Sweden has one of the highest rates of race-crime in the world. A good friend of mine who was Chinese, left his trip on the fourth day out of twenty-one because, in three different cities, he was assailed by racist remarks, seemingly by all classes, ages and beliefs - by his account, the racism was unavoidable. Not completely relevant, but it is necessary to realize the differences in societies in order to truly theorize the effects. Moving on...
I have to agree with BR, as somebody who has saved his entire life for my education, that a lot of those who are granted a free education don't seem to really appreciate it. Case in point - there was a pair of twins at my high school who had their Metis status, and as a result were not only guaranteed a post-secondary education, but they did not have to pay for it. Now, I would like to honestly say that I am not a racist person, but I cannot lie. It did make me frustrated to see the way that they conducted themselves. Did it make me angry to see this? No, just...frustrated, I suppose. I took a year off between high school and university, and I worked six days a week all year, and practiced for ~1600 hours for my audition. I am proud of what I did, but also frustrated/disappointed that some don't need to study or save to get into the exact institution as I.
Regarding the redistribution of wealth, I think that it is important to look at both sides. AF, NB I applaud your passion and clear investigation of your beliefs, but I feel that a happy medium must be struck.
Student loans: crippling, but possible.
The poor, saving their money: difficult, indeed...perhaps if we established programs to help those who are less fortunate pool their wealth for the betterment of their financial situation?
The poor, blowing the redistributed wealth: Well, I feel this is the trickiest water of them all (intentional fishing pun). I believe that if we were to redistribute some wealth, I think we would see a wide variety of results. Some would undoubtedly bank it, use it as a nest egg to ensure their fiscal security. On the other hand, there would likely be cases in which those who were given sums went out and blew them. Indeed, we would see cases all along the scale. Furthermore, we could discuss whether X results would be attributed to a certain type of poverty, i.e. financial immaturity etc.
That being said, it's tricky to determine any of those as truths and definite items, so let's just not!
J
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very well said AJ
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Well it is impossible to say that one system might work here, or we should adopt so-and-so's system, etc. because we live in an entirely different country.
I never suggested we adopt the Swedish system or claimed that it would work here, or even that it is a perfect system. I merely offered it as an example of a country that has been able to balance a strong economy with social responsibility. The Swedes have shown that you do not have to choose between the two. A Canadian system would, naturally, be have to be Canadian.
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I never suggested we adopt the Swedish system or claimed that it would work here, or even that it is a perfect system. I merely offered it as an example of a country that has been able to balance a strong economy with social responsibility. The Swedes have shown that you do not have to choose between the two. A Canadian system would, naturally, be have to be Canadian.
I spent 4 months teaching in Uppsala in 2004 and I talked politics, economies and compared countries with many Swedish students over many a very expensive beer. Sweden's base resource economy is very similar to Canadas (forestry, mining, hydropower) but they have a much more extensive and international manufacturing sector that generates lots of well paying jobs (the ultimate wealth distribution mechanism). One of the big reasons for their success that seemed to stand out is that they have an unusally cooperative and non-confrontational relationship among the government, businesses and unions. All three recognize that they can all benefit if their industry is profitable and they work together. You don't have business versus union political parties, you don't have politicians scapegoating unions to gain public votes, and you don't have companies and unions at each others throats over every issue.
But our fishing is much better.....
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I never suggested we adopt the Swedish system or claimed that it would work here, or even that it is a perfect system. I merely offered it as an example of a country that has been able to balance a strong economy with social responsibility. The Swedes have shown that you do not have to choose between the two. A Canadian system would, naturally, be have to be Canadian.
I hope that you don't think that was my point, that you were saying this - I was saying this for the sake of the betterment of the discussion, not in an effort to insinuate you believed we should directly transplant the Swedish system!
John
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But our fishing is much better.....
...which makes this Swede thankful his great grandfather emigrated.
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...which makes this Swede thankful his great grandfather emigrated.
Zing!!!!
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THE VANCOUVER SUN
Families at risk by returning to old PST-GST
June 30, 2011
Page A15
By Stockwell Day
With the harmonized sales tax referendum decision now just weeks away, British Columbians are faced with a unique and historic decision, a choice of whether they want to pay less tax or more tax.
It is a choice that will affect every family, business and bank account across the province, and represents one of the most important public decisions in the province's recent history. The ballot question is this: Do you want to extinguish the HST (now 12 per cent, but scheduled to be reduced to 11 per cent in 2012 and 10 per cent by 2014) or return to the previous 12-per-cent double tax system that included a provincial sales tax plus the federal goods and services tax?
On the surface, the answer may seem simple enough: Keep the HST and pay less tax within three years, or bring back the PST-GST and pay more tax. It's a decision that will shape the future of our province for decades to come.
It would be easy for me to simply stay out of the referendum debate. After all, the move to a harmonized sales tax was a provincial initiative, not a federal one. Added to that is the anger felt by many about the way the provincial government went about implementing the HST.
Former premier Gordon Campbell, who was a key player in turning B.C.'s economy around several years ago, is the first person to admit that the public communication side of the HST was not conducted well.
So you may ask, why am I wading into the discussion?
Many people have been asking for my perspective on the HST, especially as a former Alberta finance minister who lowered taxes. I decided that the HST issue is far too important to stay silent on, especially with so many British Columbians angry about it.
I firmly believe that a decision of this importance should be based on cold, hard facts, not raw emotion.
The economic reality is this: Individuals and families will be better off by having the HST in place as recently amended by Premier Christy Clark.
The provincial government committed to and undertook a province-wide consultation. They listened to British Columbians and acknowledged their feedback in the form of a rate reduction to 10 per cent from the current 12 per cent.
These changes reflected the concerns of every family and business, and reinforced a provincial tax policy that makes B.C.'s economy stronger.
British Columbians need to understand the real ramifications of bringing back an old, antiquated tax system. There is too much at stake to risk voting for a return to the 12-percent PST-GST.
Bottom line: The HST benefits all British Columbians:
· The HST will drop two points to 10 per cent by 2014.
· The average B.C. family will save $120 more a year.
· A one-time, $175 transitional cheque will be given for each child under 18 in a family.
· Single seniors with incomes under $40,000 will receive a one-time, $175 transitional cheque, while senior couples with family incomes under $40,000 will receive $350.
· Rebate payments of up to $230 will be put into the hands of lower-income families.
· 24,400 new jobs are predicted to be created by the end of the decade.
Reverting back to the old PST-GST system would take away every one of these personal benefits. The move would hurt B.C.'s economy and leave less money in the wallets of every B.C. family.
Choosing a 12-per-cent tax system over a 10-per-cent tax system would hurt job growth and hinder the post-recession recovery of B.C.'s small businesses, the lifeblood of our economy, which make up 98 per cent of our business community and employ over one million people.
In a short amount of time, the new tax is also making B.C. more competitive, particularly in our resource sectors. It is allowing industries such as forestry, mining, manufacturing, tourism, construction and film to hire more employees and increase wages.
Under the PST, B.C. businesses paid tax on materials, equipment, energy and other goods and services. The PST was paid at every step of the way, cascading into higher prices for consumers.
Voting to return to the PST-GST would be a step backward that B.C. residents will have to bear for years to come.
It may mean we will have to repay $1.6 billion to the federal government in transition funds to implement the tax. This could mean cuts to social services such as health care and education, and/or other tax increases.
Thank you for giving this your thoughtful consideration, even though you may be one of the many who is upset with the situation.
As someone who loves this beautiful province, I simply want what is best for our future and for our children's future.
Whichever way you decide to vote, I hope this will also be your guiding motivation.
Stockwell Day has served as a federal and Alberta cabinet minister, president of the Treasury Board, leader of the Canadian Alliance and Member of Parliament for the B.C. riding of Okanagan-Coquihalla.
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THE VANCOUVER SUN
Families at risk by returning to old PST-GST
June 30, 2011
Page A15
By Stockwell Day
With the harmonized sales tax referendum decision now just weeks away, British Columbians are faced with a unique and historic decision, a choice of whether they want to pay less tax or more tax.
It is a choice that will affect every family, business and bank account across the province, and represents one of the most important public decisions in the province's recent history. The ballot question is this: Do you want to extinguish the HST (now 12 per cent, but scheduled to be reduced to 11 per cent in 2012 and 10 per cent by 2014) or return to the previous 12-per-cent double tax system that included a provincial sales tax plus the federal goods and services tax?
On the surface, the answer may seem simple enough: Keep the HST and pay less tax within three years, or bring back the PST-GST and pay more tax. It's a decision that will shape the future of our province for decades to come.
It would be easy for me to simply stay out of the referendum debate. After all, the move to a harmonized sales tax was a provincial initiative, not a federal one. Added to that is the anger felt by many about the way the provincial government went about implementing the HST.
Former premier Gordon Campbell, who was a key player in turning B.C.'s economy around several years ago, is the first person to admit that the public communication side of the HST was not conducted well.
So you may ask, why am I wading into the discussion?
Many people have been asking for my perspective on the HST, especially as a former Alberta finance minister who lowered taxes. I decided that the HST issue is far too important to stay silent on, especially with so many British Columbians angry about it.
I firmly believe that a decision of this importance should be based on cold, hard facts, not raw emotion.
The economic reality is this: Individuals and families will be better off by having the HST in place as recently amended by Premier Christy Clark.
The provincial government committed to and undertook a province-wide consultation. They listened to British Columbians and acknowledged their feedback in the form of a rate reduction to 10 per cent from the current 12 per cent.
These changes reflected the concerns of every family and business, and reinforced a provincial tax policy that makes B.C.'s economy stronger.
British Columbians need to understand the real ramifications of bringing back an old, antiquated tax system. There is too much at stake to risk voting for a return to the 12-percent PST-GST.
Bottom line: The HST benefits all British Columbians:
· The HST will drop two points to 10 per cent by 2014.
· The average B.C. family will save $120 more a year.
· A one-time, $175 transitional cheque will be given for each child under 18 in a family.
· Single seniors with incomes under $40,000 will receive a one-time, $175 transitional cheque, while senior couples with family incomes under $40,000 will receive $350.
· Rebate payments of up to $230 will be put into the hands of lower-income families.
· 24,400 new jobs are predicted to be created by the end of the decade.
Reverting back to the old PST-GST system would take away every one of these personal benefits. The move would hurt B.C.'s economy and leave less money in the wallets of every B.C. family.
Choosing a 12-per-cent tax system over a 10-per-cent tax system would hurt job growth and hinder the post-recession recovery of B.C.'s small businesses, the lifeblood of our economy, which make up 98 per cent of our business community and employ over one million people.
In a short amount of time, the new tax is also making B.C. more competitive, particularly in our resource sectors. It is allowing industries such as forestry, mining, manufacturing, tourism, construction and film to hire more employees and increase wages.
Under the PST, B.C. businesses paid tax on materials, equipment, energy and other goods and services. The PST was paid at every step of the way, cascading into higher prices for consumers.
Voting to return to the PST-GST would be a step backward that B.C. residents will have to bear for years to come.
It may mean we will have to repay $1.6 billion to the federal government in transition funds to implement the tax. This could mean cuts to social services such as health care and education, and/or other tax increases.
Thank you for giving this your thoughtful consideration, even though you may be one of the many who is upset with the situation.
As someone who loves this beautiful province, I simply want what is best for our future and for our children's future.
Whichever way you decide to vote, I hope this will also be your guiding motivation.
Stockwell Day has served as a federal and Alberta cabinet minister, president of the Treasury Board, leader of the Canadian Alliance and Member of Parliament for the B.C. riding of Okanagan-Coquihalla.
Just more of that right wing, lying Campbell, Fraser Institute propaganda!
Oh wait, that's not what I think..... that's what Novabonker and Sandman would say.... ;D ;D
Thanks for posting, Chris!
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Stockwell Day - the same person who's already setting up shop as a government consultant, despite supposedly having to wait 5 years. Credible? NO. Same question AF - no answer. I wonder why....
Again AF - IF we've made such wonderful strides under the Liberals as a society- WHY do we have the highest child and senior's poverty rates teamed up with the lowest minimum wage in the country? I'll continue to ask this every time I see a post with your name on it because I can't understand how that helps our society and think you might enlighten us peasants.
In the end- Who has prospered?
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One thing I have not been able to find out if we go back to the PST- GST tax system are we still going to be taxed on the number of new taxable items and services that are now taxed when the HST was brought in? There was a lot that we did not pay tax on before under our old tax system.
Of course Day was in the Conservative government when his party struck this deal with Campbell so he is going to favor this system. Too bad we are not like Alberta with no sales tax at all but maybe they have a higher income tax rate than us.
My ballot is being mailed into with the X placed in the correct spot. ;D ;D
You may want to watch if you have not already, these videos I filmed of Bill Vander Zalm when he was in Chilliwack a couple of weeks ago to help you make your choice.
http://youtu.be/MRhJX6TOjxM
http://youtu.be/XRSFQOLp5o0
http://youtu.be/TWYon4n25I8
Cheers,
Chris
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One thing I have not been able to find out if we go back to the PST- GST tax system are we still going to be taxed on the number of new taxable items and services that are now taxed when the HST was brought in? There was a lot that we did not pay tax on before under our old tax system.
Of course Day was in the Conservative government when his party struck this deal with Campbell so he is going to favor this system. Too bad we are not like Alberta with no sales tax at all but maybe they have a higher income tax rate than us.
My ballot is being mailed into with the X placed in the correct spot. ;D ;D
You may want to watch if you have not already, these videos I filmed of Bill Vander Zalm when he was in Chilliwack a couple of weeks ago to help you make your choice.
http://youtu.be/MRhJX6TOjxM
http://youtu.be/XRSFQOLp5o0
http://youtu.be/TWYon4n25I8
Cheers,
Chris
Good videos Chris!
Here's some better one's: ;D ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nZXu3LXNwEg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nZXu3LXNwEg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frnBgX9QRZM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frnBgX9QRZM)
https://www.youtube.com/user/SupportHST?blend=22&ob=5 (https://www.youtube.com/user/SupportHST?blend=22&ob=5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5bWFlBClBM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5bWFlBClBM)
And if you don't like those, the following article is good reading...
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=14&ved=0CCgQFjADOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ctf.ca%2Fctfweb%2FCMDownload.aspx%3FContentKey%3D71936168-4416-4f7a-9bba-41383b591cdc%26ContentItemKey%3Deecb53e3-4dd0-4a82-80c2-da32949e2db9&rct=j&q=Top%20Seven%20%E2%80%93%20all%20new%20and%20misleading%20as%20ever%20%E2%80%93%20HST%20Myths%3A&tbs=ctr%3A7p604125b982ek&ei=VAICToPBKKH40gHC6KHTDg&usg=AFQjCNEF6C4_ra5DFQurjM4iTlPPgo7Y0w&as_acct=8sa53zk23u&cr=zl9zu63xs&as_acct=3d1u4c6291kr8e&cr=0nx9gf2kem17&as_acct=8seahvz5z99w&cr=946q65p68 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=14&ved=0CCgQFjADOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ctf.ca%2Fctfweb%2FCMDownload.aspx%3FContentKey%3D71936168-4416-4f7a-9bba-41383b591cdc%26ContentItemKey%3Deecb53e3-4dd0-4a82-80c2-da32949e2db9&rct=j&q=Top%20Seven%20%E2%80%93%20all%20new%20and%20misleading%20as%20ever%20%E2%80%93%20HST%20Myths%3A&tbs=ctr%3A7p604125b982ek&ei=VAICToPBKKH40gHC6KHTDg&usg=AFQjCNEF6C4_ra5DFQurjM4iTlPPgo7Y0w&as_acct=8sa53zk23u&cr=zl9zu63xs&as_acct=3d1u4c6291kr8e&cr=0nx9gf2kem17&as_acct=8seahvz5z99w&cr=946q65p68)
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You only comment to make a dig and personal snide comments, but you can't answer a direct questions AF- no courage to match your convictions? Or are the truthful answers not serving your propaganda? Looks pretty foolish to spew things when you won't answer a few simple questions, not that I would expect anything else.
Again AF - IF we've made such wonderful strides under the Liberals as a society- WHY do we have the highest child and senior's poverty rates teamed up with the lowest minimum wage in the country? I'll continue to ask this every time I see a post with your name on it because I can't understand how that helps our society and think you might enlighten us peasants.
In the end- Who has prospered? (besides the Liberal financial backers)
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If the 10 HST is now such a good idea as the videos and the proponents keep saying why did they not go with it at the start a year ago or once they announced it a few weeks ago?
Answer: they want to continue to rip most of us as long as they can. :(
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If the 10 HST is now such a good idea as the videos and the proponents keep saying why did they not go with it at the start a year ago or once they announced it a few weeks ago?
Answer: they want to continue to rip most of us as long as they can. :(
Another answer- hold us over for a quickie election (this fall, before the love-in with Crispy Cluck ends) and then it will turn into another pile of manure, probably stating that the economy can't handle the loss of revenue. After the amount of outright lies and bullspit we've been fed by this crew, nobody should accept the Liberals musings at face value. Hand me that shovel Chris. I have to clean up the liberal poop and start digging their early election grave.
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If the 10 HST is now such a good idea as the videos and the proponents keep saying why did they not go with it at the start a year ago or once they announced it a few weeks ago?
Answer: they want to continue to rip most of us as long as they can. :(
I'm not sure if that's the right answer. I often wonder why the gold is always at the end of the rainbow.... why isn't it at the beginning? :D
When I was young and I wanted something that I knew I couldn't have, my father used to say; "Imagine how much you'll appreciate it when you get it!"
If you think the HST is good at 10%, but you vote against it because you want it right now...... ??? ???
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Simple answer - the Liberals have no credibility, not even the guts to answer questions in debate. Now where have I seen that before recently.........
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One thing I have not been able to find out if we go back to the PST- GST tax system are we still going to be taxed on the number of new taxable items and services that are now taxed when the HST was brought in? There was a lot that we did not pay tax on before under our old tax system.
a very good question that the anti-side dont seem to want to answer.
Simple answer - the Liberals have no credibility, not even the guts to answer questions in debate.
welcome to all politicians... BC and NDP and Cons. and Green alike in BC ::)
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a very good question that the anti-side dont seem to want to answer.
welcome to all politicians... BC and NDP and Cons. and Green alike in BC ::)
I guess I better send Christy a note and ask her but maybe AF can tell us as I doubt I would get an answer from her but could ask Bill V. ;D ;D
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I guess I better send Christy a note and ask her but maybe AF can tell us as I doubt I would get an answer from her but could ask Bill V. ;D ;D
Vote for me? ;D
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The referendum vote does not indicate that if the PST is brought back that it will include all the exemptions it had before the HST was introduced. The government would have a $1.6 billion bill they would have to pay.
Maybe they will send a special invoice to all the anti HSTer's to cover that bill. Seems only fair that if you order something you also need to be willing to pay for it.
I am willing to pay the extra HST.
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I'm not sure if that's the right answer. I often wonder why the gold is always at the end of the rainbow.... why isn't it at the beginning? :D
When I was young and I wanted something that I knew I couldn't have, my father used to say; "Imagine how much you'll appreciate it when you get it!"
If you think the HST is good at 10%, but you vote against it because you want it right now...... ??? ???
...or you think the HST would be good at 10% but you vote against it because you do not believe the Liberals would ever actually cut the tax...
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The referendum vote does not indicate that if the PST is brought back that it will include all the exemptions it had before the HST was introduced. The government would have a $1.6 billion bill they would have to pay.
Maybe they will send a special invoice to all the anti HSTer's to cover that bill. Seems only fair that if you order something you also need to be willing to pay for it.
I am willing to pay the extra HST.
Good- pay mine. ;) Let's deal with facts - the whole bribe hasn't hit the coffers yet so again, your figures are fudged and off by at least $550 million. Since the great shepherds have taken office, our public long term debt has increased exponentially.
Read this little dirt sheet and tell me what stalwarts we have in charge of our economy AF.
http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2011/05/art-of-distraction-bc-liberal-and-bc.html
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Here ya go AF This is enough for you to chew on for an hour or two:
http://www.jlsreport.com/?p=1405
The biggest collection of shot down pro HST pablum links in existence. It's so full I couldn't post it.
ENJOY!
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Here ya go AF This is enough for you to chew on for an hour or two:
http://www.jlsreport.com/?p=1405
The biggest collection of shot down pro HST pablum links in existence. It's so full I couldn't post it.
ENJOY!
Good stuff but will need a day or two to read it. ;D ;D
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...or you think the HST would be good at 10% but you vote against it because you do not believe the Liberals would ever actually cut the tax...
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! WE HAVE A BINGO!
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A nice fresh one from the esteemed Mr. Oberfeld:
http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/
HST: Vote YES For Your Own Self-Respect.
July 4th, 2011 · 5 Comments
The most disheartening part of the entire HST debate is that the government, and their business backers, have learned NOTHING from the public’s anger and rejection of the haughty disrespect the Liberals have shown towards the voters throughout.
They talk of change and lessons learned … but in reality, they’re still shovelling out lies and hoping they will get away with it.
How about that LIE that, under the new HST rules, consumers will SAVE money. What a crock! Even under the best-possible scenario, the OVERCHARGE from this “revenue neutral” tax shift will drop to $230 a year from $350. Some saving! As I’ve written before, that’s like a mugger hitting you over the head for $350 every year, then saying, starting a couple of years down the road, he’ll only keep $230 of the $350 he steals from you!
Or there’s the LIE that prices will come down, thanks to all those corporate savings. How much have YOU saved so far?
How can people who look voters in the eye and say such things sleep at night or look at themselves in the mirror each morning!
And Premier Christy Clark has made it all worse … and shown her arrogance and disrespect for the voters … by refusing to debate this supposedly CRITICAL tax with the Opposition Leader. Is this the change she promised? Clearly she shows the same disdain for the voters that led to Gordon Campbell’s disgraceful exit from politics.
But the biggest farce HST supporters …and their media mouthpieces …are now using to persuade voters to overtax themselves, at the benefit of big business, is that we should all forgive and forget the insults, lies, deceit of the past … and vote on the HST on the basis of what’s best for the province.
Ha!!
Since when has that become part of Canada’s or BC’s political reality???
Ever since Confederation, EVERY government … federal and provincial… has handed out political powers, political appointments, government contracts, general government spending, located government projects, headquarters and even approved private developments WITHOUT regard for “doing what is best” for the nation or the province.
Now, all of a sudden, they want the voters …who have been screwed Royally (forgive me Will and Kate) by the HST to do what government and politicians NEVER do: make decisions totally independent of any self-interest. Even if it means your family will suffer.
How dare they!
They have NEVER set this example, but now tell us we should.
But if you care at all about your own self-respect and the integrity of our political process, you should NOT fall for that: to do so will ultimately inflict great harm on not only your bank account, but more importantly the very integrity of our democratic system.
Make no mistake: if the HST is approved, no matter how grudgingly, Clark, Campbell and their Corporate co-conspirators will all be high-fiving each other … laughing at how gullible and how stupid the voters are.
They will have gotten away, despite all the voters’ huffing and puffing, with an amazing accomplishment: convincing lower and middle class taxpayers that they should vote to bear an even greater tax burden, so the rich can enjoy even greater incomes, profits and tax relief.
Absolutely ludicrous and seemingly incredible … but a lot of big money has gone into convincing you that’s what you should do “for the good of the province”.
Even I will have to admire them if they succeed!
However, what scares me is that, if they get away with this one …and the voters show such disrespect for themselves as to vote in favour of their own mistreatmentand sacrifice (that politicians never make themselves) the damage to our democracy will be severe.
Send them a message: they can’t lie and deceive us anymore, and expect us to approve such disrespect.
Vote YES to end the HST ..and let the government know we really DEMAND HONESTY and changes in the way they operate.
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You get the sense that the anti's are losing this one..... so the attacks and the political spinning is getting more vicious.
They start out their argument with an emotional hissy fit, followed by attacks on personalities. and conclude with a statement that says; those are the reasons you should vote against the HST.
When my kids were 2 years old they knew how to debate better than that!
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Ninety-one economists rally behind HST
By Jock Finlayson and Kevin Milligan, Vancouver Sun July 5, 2011
The referendum on the harmonized sales tax and the provincial sales tax/federal goods and services tax system presents an important choice for British Columbians. As the ballots arrive, we think it is important as economists to speak out on how we view the debate.
We are united in the belief that switching back to the old PST/ GST system is the wrong way to address important social and economic problems.
It is well known that value added taxes (like the HST) are superior to retail sales taxes (like the old PST). Because the PST taxed some inputs at every stage of production, the cascade of compounding taxes led to higher tax rates on investment. The HST, in contrast, taxes only final products at a clear and transparent rate. This is why 140 countries in the world use value-added taxes like the HST, and only a few jurisdictions in Canada and the United States still use taxes like the PST.
Economists know that removing a penalty to investment will produce more investment in capital goods like equipment, machinery and buildings. These investments support growth in jobs and wages. Removing barriers like the PST from the tax system is best for the long-run prosperity of B.C.
Many economists are also concerned about the fairness of outcomes. The new HST credit, by providing $230 per year for each family member in low-income families, helps improve the fairness of the HST. By exempting basic food and rent, the HST's burden on lower income households is again lightened.
We believe the HST represents a step forward for our tax system and economy. We urge you to consider this when you fill in your ballots.
Jock Finlayson is executive vicepresident of policy at the Business Council of British Columbia. Kevin Milligan is associate professor of economics at the University of British Columbia. They submitted this letter with the support of 89 more economists from the academic and private sectors
© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun
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Ninety-one economists rally behind HST
By Jock Finlayson and Kevin Milligan, Vancouver Sun July 5, 2011
The referendum on the harmonized sales tax and the provincial sales tax/federal goods and services tax system presents an important choice for British Columbians. As the ballots arrive, we think it is important as economists to speak out on how we view the debate.
We are united in the belief that switching back to the old PST/ GST system is the wrong way to address important social and economic problems.
It is well known that value added taxes (like the HST) are superior to retail sales taxes (like the old PST). Because the PST taxed some inputs at every stage of production, the cascade of compounding taxes led to higher tax rates on investment. The HST, in contrast, taxes only final products at a clear and transparent rate. This is why 140 countries in the world use value-added taxes like the HST, and only a few jurisdictions in Canada and the United States still use taxes like the PST.
Economists know that removing a penalty to investment will produce more investment in capital goods like equipment, machinery and buildings. These investments support growth in jobs and wages. Removing barriers like the PST from the tax system is best for the long-run prosperity of B.C.
Many economists are also concerned about the fairness of outcomes. The new HST credit, by providing $230 per year for each family member in low-income families, helps improve the fairness of the HST. By exempting basic food and rent, the HST's burden on lower income households is again lightened.
We believe the HST represents a step forward for our tax system and economy. We urge you to consider this when you fill in your ballots.
Jock Finlayson is executive vicepresident of policy at the Business Council of British Columbia. Kevin Milligan is associate professor of economics at the University of British Columbia. They submitted this letter with the support of 89 more economists from the academic and private sectors
© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun
Of course these economist favor it as it is a advantage to them and their friends while the rest of us have to pick up the slack. Am so glad so many are voting yes on their ballots. ;D ;D
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You get the sense that the anti's are losing this one..... so the attacks and the political spinning is getting more vicious.
They start out their argument with an emotional hissy fit, followed by attacks on personalities. and conclude with a statement that says; those are the reasons you should vote against the HST.
When my kids were 2 years old they knew how to debate better than that!
Naw - the pro HST's are losing, the government is running scared and their attacks are turning personal. When the citizens REJECT the HST, I'll hand you a towel to get all that nasty egg off your face. ;) And wipe away those tears.
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Got the ballot yesterday, in the mail today.
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Got the ballot yesterday, in the mail today.
Mine came too.
I wonder if the amazing swami or the magic 8 ball can predict how I voted? ;D ;D ;D
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'Creating Jobs' Is Biggest HST Con Job Yet
There's scant evidence the $2 billion tax shift onto families will create more pay cheques.
By Jim Sinclair, Today, TheTyee.ca
HST backers make varying and unproven claims for employment growth.
Login/Register
Problems with BC Business Council's Pro-HST Study
How can conclusions be true when based on data with such serious shortcomings?
Pro-HST Economist Defends His BC Business Council Study
Kesselman says Clark's 'fix' cuts too deep, fires back at Schreck critique in Tyee.
Secrets of the HST Referendum
What the BC gov't won't tell you about the tax and who's behind the campaign pushing it.
When B.C.'s big businesses heard about the HST they couldn't believe their ears. The Liberal government would get the public to pay $2 billion more in taxes so business could have another $2 billion annually in annual tax cuts. It was just too good to be true. But the Liberals and business groups knew they couldn't sell the tax to British Columbians with that argument. So government and corporations have spent millions telling us the HST is really about creating new jobs and we should support it for that reason.
But what if it won't create a single new job? What if the HST only represents the biggest tax shift ever seen in British Columbia -- where a $2 billion tax burden is transferred each and every year from businesses onto ordinary working families and individuals?
If the latter is true -- and analyses by the B.C. Federation of Labour have reached this conclusion -- then it's doubly bad for British Columbians and for working people.
And that's why we should vote YES to scrap the HST in the referendum now underway.
Throwing around loose job numbers
The B.C. Liberals and their corporate backers want us to believe lots of new jobs will be created by the HST -- though they're not sure how many.
In March 2010, the B.C. Liberal government paid $14,000 for a study written by Jack Mintz, the University of Calgary professor and long-time advocate of corporate tax cuts. Mintz claimed "a net increase of 113,000 jobs" would occur over the next decade if B.C. kept the HST.
A few months later, Gordon Campbell, the former premier, threw that number out the window. Speaking in November 2010 at the Union of B.C. Municipalities convention, Campbell confessed that the HST might produce only 50,000 new jobs.
And this past May, yet another government-commissioned report said that even Campbell's much-reduced figure was too optimistic. Chaired by Jim Dinning, a former Progressive Conservative cabinet minister in Alberta, the so-called "independent panel" concluded that as few as 24,400 "more jobs" would be created under the HST, as opposed to what would happen if B.C. went back to the old Provincial Sales Tax.
Like the earlier numbers of 113,000 and 50,000, the new Dinning figure of 24,400 was spread over a 10-year period.
The Harmonized Sales Tax, in other words, might -- possibly -- create an average of 200 jobs a month over the next decade. That sounds good, but B.C.'s population is above 4.5 million, and our labour force is about 2.5 million people. While we shouldn't sneeze at a couple of hundred new jobs every 30 days or so, who knows if that tiny number is reasonable to expect from the HST? And even if it did happen, the public cost over the same period works out to $833,000 per new job created. Surely we could create jobs at a lower cost.
Big business saves big
Reducing the tax burden on corporations -- a decade-long mission for Gordon Campbell, Christy Clark and the B.C. Liberals -- is the main focus of B.C.'s Harmonized Sales Tax.
Indeed, while the Campbell-Clark government is uncertain as to how many new jobs the HST will create, they're definite about the benefits awaiting their industrial and business supporters.
Companies in the construction sector annually will save under the HST -- and, the following numbers were provided by the Liberal government -- $880 million.
Transportation firms now will keep the $210 million that they used to pay in sales taxes each year -- taxes that helped to pay for health and education, the justice system and, oh, yes, the roads and bridges used by trucking companies.
B.C.'s manufacturing and forestry sectors each will save $140 million year after year.
Corporations involved in mining, oil and gas will see their annual tax bills reduced by $80 million, and all B.C. businesses together will enjoy yearly "administrative savings" of another $150 million.
All told, big B.C. companies will pay $2 billion less in sales taxes each year, every year, with the shortfall made up by families and individuals paying the HST.
Let's be clear: the HST is a great windfall, a giant bonanza for big corporations.
But will the HST even create the paltry 200 jobs every month for the next 10 years?
To answer these questions, we merely have to look at the recent past.
Corporate tax cuts have not delivered jobs
Thirty years ago, in 1980, the number of British Columbians with a job (full-time and part-time) stood at 1,266,400. By last year, 2010, that number had grown to 2,256,500.
It's easy to calculate job creation over the last three decades: we only have to subtract the former number from the latter. By doing so, it becomes evident that the number of new jobs created in B.C. over the last 30 years was 990,100.
That works out to an annual average of 33,000.
It's reasonable to think the pace of job creation has quickened in recent years. After all, a decade ago, immediately after winning election to government, Gordon Campbell, Christy Clark and their B.C. Liberal colleagues ruthlessly slashed corporate taxes with the stated aim of stimulating the provincial economy.
So, how many new jobs were created in the last five years under the B.C. Liberals?
In 2005, the number of British Columbians who were employed (full-time and part-time) was 2,091,900. And, as stated earlier, in 2010 there were 2,256,500 people with a job.
We can see, after subtracting the former number from the latter, that 164,600 new jobs were created over the last five years.
That's an annual average of almost 33,000 per year.
In other words, the average number of new jobs created over the last five years, 33,000, is identical to the average number created over the last 30 years.
Exactly what, therefore, were the benefits British Columbians received from the B.C. Liberals' decade-long tax-cutting spree?
HST fits long pattern of tax cuts for business
Days before we vote in the HST referendum and either accept or reject a massive, $2 billion tax-shift from businesses to families and individuals, we should re-examine the array of business tax cuts the Campbell-Clark Liberals have instituted over the last decade.
In the summer of 2001, weeks after winning the general election, the B.C. Liberals slashed the corporation income tax rate from 16.5 per cent, to 13.5 per cent. It stands today, after four further reductions, at an even 10 per cent. The revenues lost to the provincial treasury from these corporate income cuts: approximately $650 million, each and every year.
The corporation capital tax also was narrowed and reduced in 2001, and then abolished entirely in 2009. At one time it generated more than $400 million annually.
The sales tax was removed from production machinery and equipment in 2001 at a cost of $160 million, each and every year. That exemption was expanded in 2002, at a further cost to the provincial treasury of $15 million annually.
In 2008, the B.C. Liberals slashed the school-tax rate for large industries, and in 2009 they provided a new tax credit for major industrial and light industrial properties. The former move cost the provincial treasury $24 million annually; the latter, $52 million.
Space does not permit an exhaustive listing of all the tax cuts and reductions handed over to the business sector by the B.C. Liberals over the last 10 years. The list is lengthy and costly.
$12 billion already given away, for what?
The B.C. Federation of Labour has prepared an analysis that calculates revenue losses for the provincial treasury since 2001 from reductions in the corporation income tax rate alone at between $7.7 billion and $8.5 billion.
The total cost of all of the B.C. Liberal corporate tax cuts over the last decade may only be estimated; it almost certainly is no less than $12 billion.
Again, what did British Columbians get for this massive expenditure? We clearly didn't gain the new jobs as promised, because the B.C. Liberals' record on job creation over the last five years has been no better or different than the provincial average since 1980.
Despite spending billions of dollars on corporate tax cuts, the B.C. Liberals created no more jobs in the last decade than did Social Credit in the 1980s or the New Democratic Party in the 1990s.
The Harmonized Sales Tax is yet another in a long, long string of corporate tax cuts instituted by Gordon Campbell, Christy Clark and the B.C. Liberals over the last 10 years.
Their earlier tax cuts created nary a single new job, so why would reasonable, rational people expect anything different from the HST?
British Columbians should vote YES in the HST referendum -- YES to get rid of the HST, YES to stop the massive, $2 billion tax shift from corporations onto working families, and YES for tax fairness.
And, let's start thinking about how to create new, decent paying jobs.
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I think this will change AF position on the HST. ;D ;D ;D
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I think this will change AF position on the HST. ;D ;D ;D
I can't believe I just spent 5 minutes of my life reading another Tyee article. Those are 5 minutes of my life that I will never get back..... Thanks for that, Chris. :'(
It's too bad you didn't post this yesterday. I mailed my ballot in this morning.....
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http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/07/05/HSTSecrets/
"Where secrecy or mystery begins, vice or roguery is not far off." -- Samuel Johnson
There are many things powerful people want to make sure you never know about the Harmonized Sales Tax binding referendum now underway.
What is the total budget of the pro-HST Smart Tax Alliance? $15 million?
They won't tell you. But it could be more than the $12 million the BC Liberals spent in the 2009 election. And over double the $6 million B.C.'s New Democrats spent.
That big business group is buying expensive television, print, radio and Internet advertising, paying for automated "robo" calls to millions of voters and hiring spin doctors galore.
That's on top of the more than $5 million the B.C. government is spending to promote the HST.
Vancouver Pride 2011
But you will never know what the Smart Tax Alliance spent -- because Premier Christy Clark made sure of it.
Believe it or not, there are no third party financial spending disclosure rules for this referendum. None.
You can read who spent how much in both the 2005 and 2009 electoral system referenda -- but you won't be able to on this one.
How much did the Coal Association of Canada donate to the Smart Tax Alliance? The Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers? The Canadian Energy Pipeline Association? The Insurance Bureau of Canada? Other business groups?
And why?
They are all Smart Tax Alliance members, but you won't ever know unless they voluntarily decide to tell us -- fat chance, especially before voting takes place.
Nor are there rules requiring referendum advertising to identify who authorized it or how to contact them. The BC Liberal government chose not to demand it.
These regulations are essential parts of any B.C. election or referendum, but have gone missing this time.
So the Smart Tax Alliance can completely avoid voter scrutiny before and after the ballot.
That stinks. Badly.
Won't 'save us all money'
Did you know that the HST won't instantly become 10 per cent if you vote "No" to keep it?
It would only become 10 per cent if the BC Liberal government still exists in 2014 and keeps its promises, first to cut the HST to 11 per cent in July 2012, and then to 10 per cent in July 2014.
But government and Smart Tax Alliance ads don't mention that key fact.
"To lower the HST from 12 per cent to 10 per cent vote NO," a June 17 government print ad says -- with no reference to when or how.
A Smart Tax Alliance TV ad featuring cherry orchardist Christine Dendy boldly states: "And now the decrease in the HST from 12 per cent to 10 per cent saves us all money."
But there hasn't been a decrease. And no, it doesn't save us all money.
You still have to pay a full seven per cent more on hundreds of goods and services like restaurant food, basic telephone and cable, home repairs and maintenance, domestic air flights and much more that you never had to pay under the previous combined PST and GST.
Even if you believe the BC Liberal government, which broke its word over and over about the HST, will really reduce the rate to 11 per cent and then 10 per cent three years from now, you will still pay an extra five per cent on all those items that you never did before.
It won't "save us all money" -- unless business passes on 90 per cent of its savings to consumers -- which is what the government claims will happen.
And most big businesses in B.C. don't produce consumer goods you buy -- so their savings on exported aluminum, forest products, coal and copper will go to their pockets, not yours.
The HST also won't save you money, unless you don't have to ever repair your roof or do significant renovations. Or unless you don't spend much money going out for dinner and a show or travelling or on and on and on.
Did you also know that government ads saying the 10 per cent HST is "law" are completely misleading?
"We want people to know if they vote to keep the HST that the reduction will take place by law," Clark claimed last month.
But the "law" is simply a federal Order-In-Council approved by the federal Conservative cabinet, not a vote by Parliament.
And it could be just as easily rescinded with only a signature.
Besides, B.C. has a fixed election date law setting the next provincial election for May 14, 2013 -- but Christy Clark can easily change that law and has repeatedly talked about holding a vote long before then.
The BC Liberals also repealed their own "balanced budget" law when they went deeply into the red ink. This is a government with laws to be broken.
Inaccurate and unfair
The HST Referendum Voters Guide mailed to British Columbians with the views of both Fight HST and the Smart Tax Alliance, as well as the so-called "Independent Panel" of experts on the tax was sent out before the Clark government announced additional HST rebates and proposed a future reduced rate.
That means the expensive mailing was both inaccurate and unfair -- since the registered proponent opposing the HST had no way to respond in the one flyer going to every British Columbian.
But the government has spent more than $5 million on misleading "stick man" and other advertising to promote its position.
You can choose to disregard my views -- as a Fight HST founder, I've opposed this tax from the beginning.
But I'm not paid to do so, and I don't have a multi-million dollar ad campaign trying to mislead you. The other side does.
Before you vote on the HST, ask why there is no disclosure of spending despite a massive pro-HST campaign, why standard election financing rules were dropped, why there is no requirement for government or corporate advertising to be truthful or even authorized by an official agent.
Ask the business members of the Smart Tax Alliance how much money they are spending and who is giving it to them.
But you won't get an answer. Just more ads supporting the HST. [Tyee]
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I can't believe I just spent 5 minutes of my life reading another Tyee article. Those are 5 minutes of my life that I will never get back..... Thanks for that, Chris. :'(
It's too bad you didn't post this yesterday. I mailed my ballot in this morning.....
Thats OK we will win by a large majority so your vote will not matter. ;D ;D
While I am at Toronto will win the Cup this coming season. ::) ;D
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Thats OK we will win by a large majority so your vote will not matter. ;D ;D
While I am at Toronto will win the Cup this coming season. ::) ;D
Reminds me of a joke: (Any mention of the Leafs reminds me of a joke......) ;D ;D
A man met a fairy who offered to grant him 1 wish. The man thought carefully and said; "I want to live forever!"
"Sorry..... I can grant you any wish you want, just not a wish to live forever" said the fairy.
"Fine" he replied, and with no hesitation at all said; " I want to die after the Toronto Maple Leafs win the Stanley cup!"
"You crafty little bugger!" said the fairy.
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I see AF friends now want to make up for their proposed reduction in the HST in two years time by backing another hike in 2 cents a litre of gas to pay for th Evergreen Line. They never seem to stop rasing our taxes in one form or another. ::)
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I think you may need to drive to Vancouver and fill your gas tank there if you want to take advantage of this tax....
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They never seem to stop rasing our taxes in one form or another. ::)
19 pages and finally the truth is told.
Does it matter if it comes out of your left or right pocket.
They will still take it one way or another.
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I see AF friends now want to make up for their proposed reduction in the HST in two years time by backing another hike in 2 cents a litre of gas to pay for th Evergreen Line. They never seem to stop rasing our taxes in one form or another. ::)
We also need to fund David Hahn's $347,000 a year pension. Pigs at a trough.....
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'Creating Jobs' Is Biggest HST Con Job Yet
There's scant evidence the $2 billion tax shift onto families will create more pay cheques.
By Jim Sinclair, Today, TheTyee.ca
Here's an opinion on the HST from another union guy.
Jim Stanford, the respected Canadian Auto Workers economist and Globe and Mail columnist, had some good things to say about Ontario's HST in an analysis he did. The union didn't come out and support the tax but Mr. Stanford recommended the CAW stay out of the protest against the HST in Ontario.
Mr. Stanford said the introduction of the HST in Ontario was not a “tax grab” and was “more efficient and less harmful than the PST.” He said it was “spreading the sales tax burden across all sectors” of the economy. http://hstjobs.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/hst_stanford_2009letter.pdf (http://hstjobs.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/hst_stanford_2009letter.pdf)
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http://hstjobs.ca/news/hstreferendumbc/
DRIVERS OF BC’S ECONOMY SAY PST-GST WILL HURT JOB GROWTH AND FAMILIES
In a rare display of solidarity, groups representing every sector of the B.C. economy came together today to make an impassioned case for the modern 10% HST and to warn of the risk to jobs, families, and the economy if British Columbia goes back to a 12% PST-GST.
Peter Leitch, Smart Tax Alliance Co-Chair and chair of the Motion Picture Production Industry Association of B.C., introduced leaders from all parts of B.C.’s economy. “Together, these groups represent members that employ more than 80 per cent of B.C.’s workforce,” said Leitch.
John Allan, President and CEO of the Council for Forest Industries for B.C. noted the importance of his industry in British Columbia: “Our members run about 100 facilities in more than 60 forest dependent communities. More than 150 thousand families directly and indirectly depend on our member companies for their livelihood and well-being.”
“HST opponents are fighting for a higher tax that hurts our industry and the tens of thousands of families who depend on it. Let’s do what’s right for B.C. and Vote ‘NO’ to keep the HST,” said Allan.
Judy Guichon, President of the British Columbia Cattlemen’s Association spoke to another critical part of the B.C. economy: “Agriculture puts food on the table for 35,000 agriculture workers across B.C. and another 30,000 people in the food processing sector. The new lower 10% HST plan is making the B.C. agriculture industry more competitive.”
Leitch urged voters to reject the anti-HST arguments: “In my industry, if you brought a script with as many plot holes as the anti-HST folks have, you wouldn’t get past the studio gate.”
“Together, everyone in this room wants to create jobs. That’s why we are encouraging all British Columbians to join us in voting NO to the PST-GST,” added Guichon.
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I see AF friends now want to make up for their proposed reduction in the HST in two years time by backing another hike in 2 cents a litre of gas to pay for th Evergreen Line.
Chris - How can you compare what the local city mayors relunctantly (???) did in order to raise monies for a very long overdue public transit extention (albeit - they could have selected a less expensive model) with that of the reduction proposal. This is something Bill or Chris D would say... :o
Sidebar - I'm NOT in favor of the 2 cents gas tax increase. I would like to see the public transit user bear some of the costs - but that would raise yet another can of worms - perchance a future debate :D
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http://hstjobs.ca/news/hstreferendumbc/
DRIVERS OF BC’S ECONOMY SAY PST-GST WILL HURT JOB GROWTH AND FAMILIES
In a rare display of solidarity, groups representing every sector of the B.C. economy came together today to make an impassioned case for the modern 10% HST and to warn of the risk to jobs, families, and the economy if British Columbia goes back to a 12% PST-GST.
Peter Leitch, Smart Tax Alliance Co-Chair and chair of the Motion Picture Production Industry Association of B.C., introduced leaders from all parts of B.C.’s economy. “Together, these groups represent members that employ more than 80 per cent of B.C.’s workforce,” said Leitch.
John Allan, President and CEO of the Council for Forest Industries for B.C. noted the importance of his industry in British Columbia: “Our members run about 100 facilities in more than 60 forest dependent communities. More than 150 thousand families directly and indirectly depend on our member companies for their livelihood and well-being.”
“HST opponents are fighting for a higher tax that hurts our industry and the tens of thousands of families who depend on it. Let’s do what’s right for B.C. and Vote ‘NO’ to keep the HST,” said Allan.
Judy Guichon, President of the British Columbia Cattlemen’s Association spoke to another critical part of the B.C. economy: “Agriculture puts food on the table for 35,000 agriculture workers across B.C. and another 30,000 people in the food processing sector. The new lower 10% HST plan is making the B.C. agriculture industry more competitive.”
Leitch urged voters to reject the anti-HST arguments: “In my industry, if you brought a script with as many plot holes as the anti-HST folks have, you wouldn’t get past the studio gate.”
“Together, everyone in this room wants to create jobs. That’s why we are encouraging all British Columbians to join us in voting NO to the PST-GST,” added Guichon.
This article says "every sector of the B.C. economy" supports the HST... Apparently the sector that Novabonker operates in, isn't part of the BC economy. ;D ;D
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Chris - How can you compare what the local city mayors relunctantly (???) did in order to raise monies for a very long overdue public transit extention (albeit - they could have selected a less expensive model) with that of the reduction proposal. This is something Bill or Chris D would say... :o
Sidebar - I'm NOT in favor of the 2 cents gas tax increase. I would like to see the public transit user bear some of the costs - but that would raise yet another can of worms - perchance a future debate :D
A number of these mayors are just Liberal backers.
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This article says "every sector of the B.C. economy" supports the HST... Apparently the sector that Novabonker operates in, isn't part of the BC economy. ;D ;D
Yes AF - It's really funny when a business struggles and the family has to live within an eroding income too.Highly amusing (for a psychotic personality).Now that's just plain low.Do you feel good about cheap shots like that? Does it make you feel like a hero when a man puts years of his life into building a business and then has troubles that weren't of his own making? So you can spit on him? Does it make you feel more secure in your manhood? How gutless and pathetic.
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Yes AF - It's really funny when a business struggles and the family has a hard time too.Highly amusing (for a psychotic personality).Now that's a shot below even the lowest levels.Do you feel good about cheap shots like that? How gutless and pathetic.
Are you sure you read what I posted?
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Are you sure you read what I posted?
Yes I did and found the comment disgusting and very classless. Low.Cheap shot. Below the belt. Not funny, just tasteless and lacking anything but a low class barb.
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Yes I did and found the comment disgusting and very classless. Low.Cheap shot. Below the belt. Not funny, just tasteless and lacking anything but a low class barb.
Quite honestly I did not interpret that the same way.
J
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Me thinks there is more that meets the eye with NB's initial comments. Just because each sector 'supports' the HST - does not mean that everyone benefits from it.
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But as a possibly humorous side bar - in second of the FightFightHST videos, Bill was asking "has anyone seem lower prices?" - I can state YES I HAVE! - on the drive to work today I spotted a restaurant sign stating 'Lower Lunch Menu Prices!'. Chris - could you mention this to Bill for me?
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I've previously stated, and quite clearly, that my business is off well over 20% since the introduction of the HST. I've made investments of many thousands in equipment and tools, only to be faced with a steep drop in business. I've lost a helper whom I've spent many hours and dollars in training, no expansion. AF was quite aware of this when he decided it was funny to spit out that sputum at me. Very crass, cowardly and a sad commentary on ones character when they choose to hide behind internet anonymity and slash at another man's business. I was initially angry, but now I just feel sorry that people like that have any form of influence over others.
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Reminded me of a little story I heard years ago..... :) I modified it a little, so my apologies to the original writer.
During these days of continually being bombarded by doom and gloom about the HST, it might be a good time to re-visit the story of the Hot Dog Vendor...
A Man lived by the side of the road...and sold hot dogs. He was hard of hearing, so he had no radio. He had trouble with his eyes, so he had no newspaper. But he sold good hot dogs. He put up a sign on the highway, telling how good they were. He stood by the side of the road and cried, "Buy a hot dog, mister!" And People bought. He increased his meat and bun order, and he bought a bigger stove to take care of his trade. He got his son home from college to help him.
But then something happened. His son said, "Father, haven't you been listening to the radio? The new HST tax is killing the economy. Restaurant sales are down, the service industries sales are down and Vanderzalm says it's the end of BC as we've known it."
Whereupon the father thought, "Well, my son has gone to college. He listens to the radio and reads the newspaper, so he ought to know." So, the father cut down on the bun order, took down his advertising sign, and no longer bothered to stand on the highway to sell hot dogs.
His hot dog sales fell almost overnight. "You were right, son", the father said to the boy. "The HST is killing the economy."
Moral of the story --
Stop reading the newspaper, turn off the news on the radio and television, and KEEP SELLING!
http://www.wisdomgroup.com/blog/the_man_who_sold_hot_dogs/ (http://www.wisdomgroup.com/blog/the_man_who_sold_hot_dogs/)
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hot dogs are not that good for you
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hot dogs are not that good for you
;D ;D
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I am very much interested in the results of this HST vote...either way, I'll keep on truckin' but it's kind of interesting nonetheless...
J
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I've previously stated, and quite clearly, that my business is off well over 20% since the introduction of the HST. I've made investments of many thousands in equipment and tools, only to be faced with a steep drop in business. I've lost a helper whom I've spent many hours and dollars in training, no expansion. AF was quite aware of this when he decided it was funny to spit out that sputum at me. Very crass, cowardly and a sad commentary on ones character when they choose to hide behind internet anonymity and slash at another man's business. I was initially angry, but now I just feel sorry that people like that have any form of influence over others.
I am sorry to hear about your drop in business Nova but blaming it on a tax is hard for me to believe.
there could be other factors in play I am sure you could contribute a very small decrees to the tax shift but I am certain there will be other factors if you look hard enough.
Find a new way to promote your business and try and improve your customer facing attitude and I am sure you will find something to smile about
gloom and doom gets old and customers like to buy from happy people not victims of the economy.
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I am sorry to hear about your drop in business Nova but blaming it on a tax is hard for me to believe.
there could be other factors in play I am sure you could contribute a very small decrees to the tax shift but I am certain there will be other factors if you look hard enough.
Find a new way to promote your business and try and improve your customer facing attitude and I am sure you will find something to smile about
gloom and doom gets old and customers like to buy from happy people not victims of the economy.
I just got a call from a friend of mine that has 3 restaurants in the Fraser Valley as he wanted to discuss the HST. He says business is down 20% at his 3 restaurants since the HST first came in.
Does one need any further examples of how the HST has effected many of us?
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I'm sure there are some businesses that have been affected by the HST. However the majority of businesses have seen the positive effects of the HST. Under PST the vast majority of BC businesses were being hurt.
Tax policies always effect some more than others... So, do you implement tax policy that helps the majority, or do you do it to help the minority?
In general the restaurant industry is pleased with the HST as indicated below. I am sure along with the HST, the higher minimum wage and the tougher drinking laws have affected the restaurant industry.
VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - Several sectors in the tourism industry have rallied in support of the HST, and it appears any doubts about the new tax regime that may have existed months ago have disappeared.
A couple of years ago, there were predictions the HST would have a devastating impact on tourism. Now, Steven Regan, President and CEO of the Tourism Industry Association of BC, says they never asked for the tax to be scrapped.
"The impacts have been positive in some cases, they've been challenging in others. We came to the conclusion when the Minister of Finance announced the two per cent reduction for consumers, that that was the tipping point."
Mark Reid with Ceili's Restaurant and Pub in Vancouver says the restaurant industry has seen some challenges lately, like the increased minimum wage and higher liquor costs, but "if we were to go back to the old way of taxing with the twelve per cent, we lose our margins, and it's people's jobs and expansion for our company that would be compromised."
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I just got a call from a friend of mine that has 3 restaurants in the Fraser Valley as he wanted to discuss the HST. He says business is down 20% at his 3 restaurants since the HST first came in.
Does one need any further examples of how the HST has effected many of us?
I think, if'n I remember correctly, that we can expect a rise that roughly corresponds to the approximate loss in business over time? Wouldn't society..."normalize"
John
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sorry folks, i just don't buy into the 'HST is good for the economy' speech...i was around when the GST was introduced as a way to alleviate the national deficit and help pay for social services, but i have yet to see any public reports on the success of the tax or how it was allocated.
it seems taxes are often used as 'a way out' for government to compensate for poor money management... i see the HST as nothing more than a smoke screen to eliminate any exemptions that the GST allowed.
if it's such a great tax then why would you have to bribe people with a $178 rebate and have a referendum with the questionaire being worded so confusingly? also why didn't they have the tax at 10% to begin with rather than wait to have the negative reaction of the consumers?
the government will never spend so time and money on something that isn't lucrative for them in the long run....just look recently with our gas prices, as the US introduced the lowering of oil prices, our government decided to implement a carbon tax.
Vote the way you want...but i'll let the record stand.
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sorry folks, i just don't buy into the 'HST is good for the economy' speech...i was around when the GST was introduced as a way to alleviate the national deficit and help pay for social services, but i have yet to see any public reports on the success of the tax or how it was allocated.
The GST was introduced to replace the 13% FST. The FST was a hidden tax that added to the cost of every product Canada produced. This made our companies uncompetitive with companies world wide. Do some research. The GST was not brought in to help with the deficit or social services. It was revenue neutral, as it replaced the FST. The introduction of the GST along with the introduction of free trade were 2 of the greatest changes that have helped Canada become the county we are today. It's one of the big reasons why Canada has come through the latest recession so much stronger than our neighbor to the south.
Substitute BC for Canada, and HST for PST/GST in the paragraph above and that's the benefits to the HST in BC.
The rest of your ramble has nothing to do with the HST....
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The GST was introduced to replace the 13% FST. The FST was a hidden tax that added to the cost of every product Canada produced. This made our companies uncompetitive with companies world wide. Do some research. The GST was not brought in to help with the deficit or social services. It was revenue neutral, as it replaced the FST. The introduction of the GST along with the introduction of free trade were 2 of the greatest changes that have helped Canada become the county we are today. It's one of the big reasons why Canada has come through the latest recession so much stronger than our neighbor to the south.
Substitute BC for Canada, and HST for PST/GST in the paragraph above and that's the benefits to the HST in BC.
The rest of your ramble has nothing to do with the HST....
no such thing as revenue neutral hidden or not, tax is a tax...GST or the blended HST only the select few will benefit from it (probably someone like you)... Free trade and GST DID NOT make Canada what is it today...IT'S CALLED NATURAL RESOURCE and a banking system that's been around since the turn of the century... remember when the states imposed tariffs on our soft wood lumber? that because they didn't want to compete with our weak canadian dollar... we were nothing more than a cheap resource counter part to mexico's cheap labour....that's what free trade did for Canada...it's cheaper to buy canadian products in the states than it is to buy in canada..imagine that.
seems you ramble as much as i do.
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In your ramble I found one thing that we agree on..... "a tax is a tax". ;D
The only way a government can pay for the health care, education and roads everyone wants, is to tax us. The challenge for government is to find a way to tax us that balances taxes between business and the consumer, yet tries not to hurt either the consumers ability to buy or the businesses ability to sell competitive products.
I hate tax as much as the next guy, but the HST provides a better way than the PST/GST to collect the tax that the government needs.
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the HST provides a better way than the PST/GST to collect the tax that the government needs.
To collect it from the average taxpayer while big business and this bad Provincial government gains most of the benefits.
blaydRnr has iit right. ;D ;D
sorry folks, i just don't buy into the 'HST is good for the economy' speech...i was around when the GST was introduced as a way to alleviate the national deficit and help pay for social services, but i have yet to see any public reports on the success of the tax or how it was allocated.
it seems taxes are often used as 'a way out' for government to compensate for poor money management... i see the HST as nothing more than a smoke screen to eliminate any exemptions that the GST allowed.
if it's such a great tax then why would you have to bribe people with a $178 rebate and have a referendum with the questionaire being worded so confusingly? also why didn't they have the tax at 10% to begin with rather than wait to have the negative reaction of the consumers?
the government will never spend so time and money on something that isn't lucrative for them in the long run....just look recently with our gas prices, as the US introduced the lowering of oil prices, our government decided to implement a carbon tax.
Vote the way you want...but i'll let the record stand.
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I need to correct a couple of your comments Chris...
The GST was introduced to get rid of the FST (Federal Sales tax). The FST was just like the PST in that it added layers of cost to every product that Canadian businesses manufactured. Every time a consumer bought something they paid tax on top of tax. The GST was never introduced to alleviate the deficit, although it helped the Liberals run surplus budgets for many years. When the Conservatives came into power of course they lowered the GST to 5% from 7%. We have had deficits since.
The HST may look like a smoke screen, more because both the pro and the anti sides have played politics in introducing it. In reality it does the same thing that the GST does. It gets rid of a layering tax. Tax on tax is not an efficient way of collecting and it makes the end product more expensive.
If you suggest that the $175 rebate is a bribe then GST rebates were a bribe. How about the child rebate that young families get? How about the income tax breaks all low income folks get? You can call them bribes but they are meant to minimize the impact of the taxation system by giving back to the lower income folks some or in some cases all of the tax they pay. The well off people don't get the bribe/rebate so they end up paying more tax. The small difference with the $175 is it is only for low income seniors and for families with young children.
The tax cannot be decreased to 10% immediately as it would have a negative impact on the budget. The deficit would be higher than forecast so there would be an outcry from the opposition. Going forward as the economy grows they can work the discount into the budget. The GST stayed at 7% for 10 years before it was lowered to 5%...
I totally agree that there is a lot of waste in government spending. I also maintain that the government will need to raise taxes as long as we demand better and better levels of health care, education, roads etc. Now we have the teachers demanding much higher wages so that will require more taxes. Mr Sinclair will be negotiating real hard for higher wages for the government workers. More taxes.
I don't like paying taxes of any sort, but if we need to be taxed lets have a tax in place that works better for the BC economy. I'm willing to wait for 2 years to see a 10% HST because over all it will cost me less than under the current 12% PST/GST. I may not be happy with all the crap of how it was introduced, but I held my nose and voted to keep the HST because I believe it will make the future BC stronger not just for me but for my kids as well.
In the end what ever happens, you and I will go fishing just like before.
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In your ramble I found one thing that we agree on..... "a tax is a tax". ;D
The only way a government can pay for the health care, education and roads everyone wants, is to tax us.
ummm...isn't that what i just said? ??? ::)
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RAFE HERE
A little more on the HST which your premier and government are avoiding like the plague.
First, the present PST does NOT cover all the items the HST does meaning that the increase from 10% to 12% is grossly misleading with the cost to the taxpayer considerably more than the stated %. While the stated % is 10 expanded to 12, because the new tax covers a lot more items, we pay a hell of a lot more in actual cash.
It’s a shell game as governments are so good at and underscores what I said about trusting this government to reduce the tax in three years.
A further and critically important point. The power to impose direct taxation, under our constitution, belongs to the provinces exclusively. By this deal we cede that constitutional power to Ottawa with nothing I can see to prevent the federal government increasing its % forcing BC to reduce theirs or perhaps give it up entirely meaning Ottawa will have this tax all to itself.
I cannot understand how any BC government could cede its taxation authority to the federal government putting BC in the position of going to Ottawa with a begging bowl to get tax dollars that used to belong to the province exclusively. I have to wonder if this has anything to do with Gordon Campbell’s juicy sinecure as Canada’s High Commissioner to the United Kingdom?
In every way, this tax is bad for British Columbians made all the worst by this Liberal government’s deceit.
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The “YES| side of the HST debate – that is to say those opposed – got a considerable assist from the Vancouver Province, the Vancouver Sun and the Fraser Institute (the right wing “think tank”) who placed themselves on the NO side meaning in favour of the HST. If that isn’t resounding proof that the HST is a bad tax, nothing will. (By the way, the editor of the Sun’s editorial page is former Fraser Institute “fellow”, Fazil Milhar.)
Do I say this just because I don’t like the Province, the Sun and the Fraser Institute … and the answer is yes because they consistently stand four square behind big business, whereas I try to speak out for those a tax like this hurts. I’m fully behind free enterprise but against those who care nothing about ordinary citizens and which have, through their money, an unwarranted influence on politicians.
The HST is a bad tax being “user pay” or “consumption” tax which is a graduated tax like income tax in reverse which progressively hurts the further more down the economic scale you go. Thus the HST runs diametrically contra to our tax theory that the more you make, the higher your tax rate.
The HST will benefit big business but certainly not smaller ones like restaurants so we need to know why giving big business a tax break is good for us.,
The answer from the far right, as represented by the present government, the Fraser Institute and big business is that their savings will be passed on to the rest of us in lower prices, This is the Milton Friedman “trickle down” theory which has long been discredited by economists other than from the far right.
The late JK Galbraith dealt with it thusly “"Trickle-down theory - the less than elegant metaphor that if one feeds the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows."
Integral to the governments case is that they will drop 2% of the tax in three years. I only ask this – does anyone really take promises from this government seriously? If you do, you must believe that Lucy is going to let Charlie Brown kick that ball. Few governments have much credibility – this one has NONE<
This is a bad tax from a bad government to help industry which doesn’t pay its fair share of taxes as it is.
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After reading that last big of nonsense, I understand why there is no link to the writer..... at least it protects the ignorant.
Rafe's article.... Does anyone have any idea what he is talking about??
1. Rafe: " ..... meaning that the increase from 10% to 12% is grossly misleading with the cost to the taxpayer considerably more than the stated %. While the stated % is 10 expanded to 12 "
The HST is actually DECREASING from 12% to 10%.
2. Rafe: "I cannot understand how any BC government could cede its taxation authority to the federal government putting BC in the position of going to Ottawa with a begging bowl to get tax dollars that used to belong to the province exclusively. "
I'm sure he must be aware that the federal government has been collecting all the provincial income taxes from us BC'ers for the last 80+ years..... I'm not aware of BC ever having to beg for the feds to give us our share...
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There is a drop a few years down the road from 12 to 10%. But your now paying more tax by paying tax on items that were not taxed before. even with the drop in %.
The fact that the Liberals can't seem to express that clearly shows that either their conniving or stupid, your choice. Just don't try to say that this is all done on the up and up. But I guess some folks are OK with being fed bulldroppings.
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There is a drop a few years down the road from 12 to 10%. But your now paying more tax by paying tax on items that were not taxed before. even with the drop in %.
The fact that the Liberals can't seem to express that clearly shows that either their conniving or stupid, your choice. Just don't try to say that this is all done on the up and up. But I guess some folks are OK with being fed bulldroppings.
Are you suggesting it's the Liberals fault that Rafe thinks the HST is increasing from 10% to 12% ? ;D Rafe: " ..... meaning that the increase from 10% to 12% is grossly misleading with the cost to the taxpayer considerably more than the stated %. While the stated % is 10 expanded to 12 "
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Only a few more days when the beginning of the end of the HST. ;D ;D ;D
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First, the present PST does NOT cover all the items the HST does meaning that the increase from 10% to 12% is grossly misleading with the cost to the taxpayer considerably more than the stated %.
It's hard to figure out what he is trying to say here but I think that he is trying to say 2 things in one thought.
1) the HST covers more items so the overall revenue (cost) is more
2) The difference between the promised 10% and the current 12% is over rated ("misleading") since there would be more tax overall with the HST even at 10%.
The provincial government is terrible at collecting more owed to it.
The Feds can make you pay until you bleed.
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It's hard to figure out what he is trying to say here but I think that he is trying to say 2 things in one thought.
1) the HST covers more items so the overall revenue (cost) is more
2) The difference between the promised 10% and the current 12% is over rated ("misleading") since there would be more tax overall with the HST even at 10%.
The provincial government is terrible at collecting more owed to it.
The Feds can make you pay until you bleed.
I think we can agree that Rafe should stick to commenting on stuff he knows something about..... ;D ;D
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Are you suggesting it's the Liberals fault that Rafe thinks the HST is increasing from 10% to 12% ?
I was not even refering to what Rafe said. I was just giving the facts. But I guess some folks are OK with being fed bulldroppings.
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The jobs and the HST myth:
7.3 % of British Columbians unemployed in June,but the western provinces without the HST -- Saskatchewan 4.9 per cent, Manitoba 5.5 per cent and Alberta 5.6 per cent.
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The GST was not brought in to help with the deficit or social services.
The only way a government can pay for the health care, education and roads everyone wants, is to tax us.
The tax cannot be decreased to 10% immediately as it would have a negative impact on the budget. The deficit would be higher than forecast so there would be an outcry from the opposition. Going forward as the economy grows they can work the discount into the budget. The GST stayed at 7% for 10 years before it was lowered to 5%...
are you actually reading what you're typing?
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are you actually reading what you're typing?
;D ;D ;D It's the hailstorm of jobs falling from the sky or the revenue neutral story sputtering in the background. It can be very distracting..... ::)
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are you actually reading what you're typing?
I actually do read it.
But I'm sure you were probably trying to make a point even though I haven't a clue what it is.......
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I actually do read it.
But I'm sure you were probably trying to make a point even though I haven't a clue what it is.......
Then why so many contradictions?
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;D ;D ;D
Nice to see your smile again Novabonker! ;D
You missed the fact that the HST has also been ruining the weather in BC!
While British Columbian's are suffering with cool, wet weather; the western provinces without the HST -- Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta are enjoying sunshine and 30+ degree weather......
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Then why so many contradictions?
Why don't you and Blaydrnr get together and come up with a post that asks a full question...
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People flocking to the States to take advantage of the weak American dollar according to Global news last night. ::)
I wonder if the 12% HST sends a few more across the line. :-\ Personally is it really worth waiting in line for a long period of time and the gas one burns. Oh the gas is cheaper there too. Also I believe in supporting our local stores as much as possible even though many are owned by companies from other countries.
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You got that right Chris. I hold off buying some things till I go to Alberta. Now with the our dollar against the US yen ...yikes.
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Why don't you and Blaydrnr get together and come up with a post that asks a full question...
Are you just being silly? I asked you miles of questions that you wouldn't respond to because you just couldn't put a coat of polish on those turds. Would you like me to dredge up your non responses to them with the simple questions? There's a pile in this thread.
Try again.
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The reason I started this thread was to provide information so that folks reading it could make an informed decision on the HST. You have noted correctly that I ignored some posts which I felt did not contribute anything to the topic and were just emotional rants interspersed with personal jabs.
The following comments didn't add anything to the topic and I should have ignored them as well.
are you actually reading what you're typing?
Then why so many contradictions?
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The reason I started this thread was to provide information so that folks reading it could make an informed decision on the HST.
This whole HST controversy has never been about whether or not the HST is a good or bad tax; it's about people wanting to deliver a smackdown to a provincial party that has become arrogant, dishonest and unresponsive to it's electorate. Every party needs a good slapping around now and then when they get too big for their britches. If British Columbians feel it's worth the cost, then so be it.
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Why don't you and Blaydrnr get together and come up with a post that asks a full question...
i wasn't really asking a question...i was merely being rhetorical towards your response to my so called rambling.
Novabonker pretty much hit the hammer on the nail.
like you stated before, a tax is a tax, regardless of how it's packaged...it's all tied into the strength of the economy and it determines the stability of our finances...the problem is government create or raise taxes for the sake of social services, but they never seem to have enough so they cut back on needed programs then they want to create more taxes and raise existing ones.
forget semantics and deal with reality...just like here in Richmond where they spent millions building the B line for a bus only lane that was created and dismantled 2 yrs later to make room for the Sky Train...Years of planning and millions of tax payer dollars for what?... how about the fast cat ferries...budgeted for 200 million...went over budget by 300 million then sold for the price of scrap metal at a mere 20 million dollars....also funded by tax payers...now the controversy with the ferry CEO and his rich pension plan which exceeds the national and american average..(board of director approved)....the new addition of the carbon tax for gas when the price of crude oil dropped...
the list goes on...everything tax based and poorly managed...so forgive me, if i'm a little skeptical.
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The reason I started this thread was to provide information so that folks reading it could make an informed decision on the HST. You have noted correctly that I ignored some posts which I felt did not contribute anything to the topic and were just emotional rants interspersed with personal jabs.
The following comments didn't add anything to the topic and I should have ignored them as well.
Personal jabs offend you? But you don't take the high ground and deliver your own?That's a rich one old bean. Glass houses and rocks leap to mind.Sweeping your own doorstep before commenting on the folks next door. ;)
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, you skipped (AGAIN) over those pesky employment stats.Or the "revenue neutral" whopper. Don't those darn pesky facts always get in the way of a good fable? You can spin to your heart's content, but the wheels are getting pretty wobbly The rain since the HST introduction has been thick with 50 dollar bills......... and bovine scat.
The reason I started this thread was to provide information so that folks reading it could make an informed decision on the HST.
Funny- ME TOO! ::)
You have noted correctly that I ignored some posts which I felt did not contribute anything to the topic and were just emotional rants interspersed with personal jabs.
Thank you Mr. Spock - LIVE LONG AND PROSPER! ;D
The following comments didn't add anything to the topic and I should have ignored them as well.
Just can't help yourself either huh? ;)
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Some more common sense.....
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/07/25/NixHST/
As the HST referendum counts down to its final hours, there are at least four good reasons why you should vote Yes to kill the tax:
1. Clearly not revenue neutral. Sold as revenue neutral, the 2010-11 Public Accounts released last Monday show this is clearly untrue. The HST was in place for eight of the 12 months covered. During that time, the HST raised $392 million more than projected. Under the HST's input tax credit system, business pays no tax. So where did this tax increase come from? British Columbian consumers, of course.
2. Too blunt an instrument. An "across the board" tax is unresponsive on a policy level. A flexible tax policy is an important tool of economic policy. Our provincial government needs to play all the keys of the policy piano if we are to have healthy and vibrant communities. A flat sales tax on all products and services does not allow government to pick and choose what products will be tax exempt, removing an important instrument from the economic and social policy stimulation toolbox.
3. Gets in the way of cutting other taxes. But it gets worse. In trying to sell the HST to a skeptical public, Victoria has promised a two per cent reduction by 2014. How will the provincial government make up this shortfall? Ironically, by eliminating a proposed reduction in small business tax rates. And by increasing corporate taxes from 10 per cent to 12 per cent. Knee-jerk defense of one tax policy (HST) winds up dismantling another (income tax). Bear in mind that HST is a spigot that turns most easily in only one direction. In Europe, HST rates now average 19.6 per cent and have risen to 25 per cent in many countries.
4. More open to cheaters. As noted last week, Ottawa's HST collection system is a leaky bucket. For the first decade of the tax, then revenue minister Elinor Kaplan pegged GST fraud losses at $154 million. In 2010, 199 new cases of GST/HST fraud totaling $73.6 million went before the courts. Judgments amounted to $7.3 million, of which $1.7 million was recovered, $4.2 million is expected to be recovered in future, and $1.7 million is deemed unrecoverable. And of course what gets before the courts only tells part of the story.
Not surprisingly, as the HST referendum campaign draws to a close, we all know more than we did at the beginning.
Consider this: Consumers are paying more tax under HST. We've traded a flexible PST policy instrument in the hands of the province for a blunt, across the board, tax-on-everything (HST) in the hands of Ottawa. To sell this puppy to the people of B.C., small business will lose the stimulus of a proposed tax reduction, and corporate taxes will go up... And under the HST, all our provincial tax money is being dumped into Ottawa's leaky input-tax-credit-bucket, creating new opportunities for the unscrupulous.
Just exactly why would anyone vote No?
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ROFLMFAO - good ol' AF just disappears when he can't dispute FACTS - Hilarious! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Here's a good one- OUR money (some of it from the HST spoils no doubt) going to Seaspan and the Washington Group- last time I saw Dennis's boat, either the "dingy" with the helipad and chopper, or the new really big one, it didn't occur to me he was short or I might have lent him a couple of bucks....... But we'll still top the charts in child and seniors living in poverty. ::)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/07/25/bc-shipbuilding-investment.html
40 million and giving it to them just warms my heart (because my blood is boiling)
Seaspan is a wholly owned subsidiary of American Based Washington Group. They owned Montana Rail-link amongst other interests. Washington Group International was acquired by URS Corporation of San Francisco in November 2007 for $3.1 billion, and currently operates as the "Energy and Construction Division" of URS
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/07/25/bc-shipbuilding-investment.html
40 million and giving it to them just warms my heart (because my blood is boiling)
Seaspan is a wholly owned subsidiary of American Based Washington Group. They owned Montana Rail-link amongst other interests. Washington Group International was acquired by URS Corporation of San Francisco in November 2007 for $3.1 billion, and currently operates as the "Energy and Construction Division" of URS
This is an interesting one. I remember working on one of those "dingys" (an earlier version of the Attessa) in a big environmentally controlled tent. Now, are you objecting because Dennis Washington is American (Seaspan is another example of an American "Branch Plant" type investment, where an American interest owns the plant/shipyard and Canadians work in it, much like most of the manufacturing sector in Canada), or would you still object to this government investment if Seaspan was a Canadian owned company? This proposed "investment" would appear to be form of "subsidization" and I wonder if Quebec and Nova Scotia are offering similar "investments." Obviously the BC government is counting on the jobs created or maintained through the lucrative federal contract will result in future tax revenues that exceed the $40 million invested. All those ship builders (including the projected additional 6800 jobs created by this contract) will be spending their paychecks in BC and even at 10%, that is a lot of HST revenue, not to mention the income tax collected. However, one is left wondering, if the government should be able to meddle in the bidding process in this way "helping Seaspan submit the strongest possible bid," or is the commitment to provide the training, and more tax breaks acceptable if it helps create direct jobs in BC?
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Some more common sense..... http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/07/25/NixHST/
Isn't that what one would call an oxymoron?
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Here's a good one- OUR money (some of it from the HST spoils no doubt) going to Seaspan and the Washington Group- last time I saw Dennis's boat, either the "dingy" with the helipad and chopper, or the new really big one, it didn't occur to me he was short or I might have lent him a couple of bucks....... But we'll still top the charts in child and seniors living in poverty. ::)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/07/25/bc-shipbuilding-investment.html
40 million and giving it to them just warms my heart (because my blood is boiling)
Seaspan is a wholly owned subsidiary of American Based Washington Group. They owned Montana Rail-link amongst other interests. Washington Group International was acquired by URS Corporation of San Francisco in November 2007 for $3.1 billion, and currently operates as the "Energy and Construction Division" of URS[/font][/color]
This is an interesting one. I remember working on one of those "dingys" (an earlier version of the Attessa) in a big environmentally controlled tent. Now, are you objecting because Dennis Washington is American (Seaspan is another example of an American "Branch Plant" type investment, where an American interest owns the plant/shipyard and Canadians work in it, much like most of the manufacturing sector in Canada), or would you still object to this government investment if Seaspan was a Canadian owned company? This proposed "investment" would appear to be form of "subsidization" and I wonder if Quebec and Nova Scotia are offering similar "investments." Obviously the BC government is counting on the jobs created or maintained through the lucrative federal contract will result in future tax revenues that exceed the $40 million invested. All those ship builders (including the projected additional 6800 jobs created by this contract) will be spending their paychecks in BC and even at 10%, that is a lot of HST revenue, not to mention the income tax collected. However, one is left wondering, if the government should be able to meddle in the bidding process in this way "helping Seaspan submit the strongest possible bid," or is the commitment to provide the training, and more tax breaks acceptable if it helps create direct jobs in BC?
Thanks for adding some rational thought to a very confusing post, Sandman. (Investment is required to create jobs)
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This proposed "investment" would appear to be form of "subsidization" and I wonder if Quebec and Nova Scotia are offering similar "investments." Obviously the BC government is counting on the jobs created or maintained through the lucrative federal contract will result in future tax revenues that exceed the $40 million invested. All those ship builders (including the projected additional 6800 jobs created by this contract) will be spending their paychecks in BC and even at 10%, that is a lot of HST revenue, not to mention the income tax collected. However, one is left wondering, if the government should be able to meddle in the bidding process in this way "helping Seaspan submit the strongest possible bid," or is the commitment to provide the training, and more tax breaks acceptable if it helps create direct jobs in BC?
How many times have we seen this before, with provincial governments competing against other provincial governments with our tax dollars for our federal tax dollars? I could never understand why provincial and federal governments are so eager to spend our taxpayer dollars on subsidizing a Canadian ship building industry that has been proven time and again not be internationally competitive with the big European shipyards or the cheap labour Asian shipyards. It doesn't work unless they can start winning foreign shipbuilding contracts and previous attempts to subsidize the industry so they can be internationally competitive have come up fruitless. The whole industry needs a serious re-think.
Most of the $35B ship's contracts is for war ships; add in the $16B for fighter jets; plus the costs of armed forces personnel, fuel, supplies, etc.; that's a lot of taxpayer dollars getting ready for battle.....but who exactly are we going to fight? ???
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Exactly StillAqua - It's like having an athletic contest between your children to see who gets to eat, and lavishing it all on the winner with the biggest bribe instead of sharing it amongst them. That's so screwed up it makes my head spin.There shouldn't be any bribes or provincial money attached to a fair process - not a tainted one that reeks of political interference How the heck do you justify pouring 40 million into a very successful company without every failing or slumping industry coming to you with it's hand out?
And maybe AF can tell me how to get some of this lolly ::)
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Most of the $35B ship's contracts is for war ships; add in the $16B for fighter jets; plus the costs of armed forces personnel, fuel, supplies, etc.; that's a lot of taxpayer dollars getting ready for battle.....but who exactly are we going to fight? ???
Remember this?
(http://teacherweb.com/BC/HDStaffordMiddleSchool/Sandquist/Cartoon.jpg)
I suppose the question is, should we wait until we are already embroiled in another conflict and then start to refit the armed forces?
Thanks for the props AF, but NB and SA raise interesting questions. Can this type of government military spending be justified in a time when tax dollars could be going to more philanthropic endeavors, such as healthcare, education or child poverty. I know the health care system could use more nurses and technicians, and the education system could use more teachers, teaching assistants, teacher librarian, etc., and $40 million could go a long way to improving the lives of countless children living in poverty here in BC. Are they going to offer the training program to people currently on income assistance? I get the allure of a lucrative contract, but should the government not let the private sector compete on its own terms? Why does one company get a break while others do not? What about all the other companies in BC competing for contracts around the country and the globe? Why are they not deserving of this type of deal? Why does Washington, one of the wealthiest men in the world need another tax break? Just food for thought.
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LOL Sandman - I guess we hit the post button at the same time. And it does bother me to no end why we are lining Dennis Washington's overflowing pockets with our gold.
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--Its all in how they spend it not how they collect it.
--Changing the way tax is collected will not reduce spending waste.
--Select redistribution can be accomplished with either system... must be the old bell curve thing... not everyone agrees with giving back to the lowest % of income earners or where the cut off should be. On the other end of the curve it seems many feel the highest income earners shouldn't pay either... that leaves the majority of us paying.
--We all seem to have a good and valid reason to not pay or to have someone else pay more to make the system what in our opinion is Fair.
--I haven't seen any BC political party with a palatable plan to spend the money wisely. Maybe we should be focused on how they spend it rather than how they collect it.
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Remember this?
(http://teacherweb.com/BC/HDStaffordMiddleSchool/Sandquist/Cartoon.jpg)
I suppose the question is, should we wait until we are already embroiled in another conflict and then start to refit the armed forces?
Thanks for the props AF, but NB and SA raise interesting questions. Can this type of government military spending be justified in a time when tax dollars could be going to more philanthropic endeavors, such as healthcare, education or child poverty. I know the health care system could use more nurses and technicians, and the education system could use more teachers, teaching assistants, teacher librarian, etc., and $40 million could go a long way to improving the lives of countless children living in poverty here in BC. Are they going to offer the training program to people currently on income assistance? I get the allure of a lucrative contract, but should the government not let the private sector compete on its own terms? Why does one company get a break while others do not? What about all the other companies in BC competing for contracts around the country and the globe? Why are they not deserving of this type of deal? Why does Washington, one of the wealthiest men in the world need another tax break? Just food for thought.
That's an interesting question for which you probably know the answer.... :)
It's like asking; "My cash flow is really tight this year, would it be ok if I stopped paying the premiums on my house insurance?" The answer is; Of course you could , but what if your house burns down?
Our military is probably more important than ever in this age of wacko terrorists!
It's also quite naive to suggest that we are lining someones pockets when we invest in an industry that will provide jobs and income to BC residents who in turn will pay taxes. This amount is not the sole investment, the wealthy investor has already put in many times that amount into the business. The purpose of the incentive is to get the business to put more of their own money in the business.
Why not look at the other side of the equation.... What if there were no incentives offered in BC for wealthy individuals/businesses to invest? Given an opportunity to invest in a province that did offer incentives, where do you think the wealthy individual would invest their money? That's where the new jobs would be created!
Why not use the funds to support social programs instead?? you could do that, but only for a short period of time.... until the money runs out. Creating jobs generates tax revenue which can fund social programs over the long term.
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--Its all in how they spend it not how they collect it.
--Changing the way tax is collected will not reduce spending waste.
--Select redistribution can be accomplished with either system... must be the old bell curve thing... not everyone agrees with giving back to the lowest % of income earners or where the cut off should be. On the other end of the curve it seems many feel the highest income earners shouldn't pay either... that leaves the majority of us paying.
--We all seem to have a good and valid reason to not pay or to have someone else pay more to make the system what in our opinion is Fair.
--I haven't seen any BC political party with a palatable plan to spend the money wisely. Maybe we should be focused on how they spend it rather than how they collect it.
Great idea, but how are you going to arrive at a consensus on how to spend the money? Take any government expenditure and you will find those in favor and those opposed. I am certain that an individual that finds employment as a result of the government providing an incentive to his employer will not be opposed to government incentives....
I would suggest that there is not an expenditure that the government has made that would be opposed by 100% of the population. Where do you draw the line? 70%? 60%? What would be the approval rate required before the government gives the incentive? How would you determine the approval rate?
It's great to sit back and say they should be spending the money better, what suggestions do you have as to how to achieve that?
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"Why not look at the other side of the equation.... What if there were no incentives offered in BC for wealthy individuals/businesses to invest? Given an opportunity to invest in a province that did offer incentives, where do you think the wealthy individual would invest their money? That's where the new jobs would be created!"
--to a point but I get nervous when we spend money to help build a shipyard in Alberta...invest where it makes sense and not industry specific.
--infrastructure such as guaranteed source electricity or skilled work force. tax breaks not so much... Yes they work for easily moved jobs such as call centres which rely on least cost to make a profit... and yes I agree it is difficult to make people play fair..
--If I didn't have to pay taxes I would volunteer to spend some portion of the tax money to hire someone to mow my lawn so I could go fishing.
--PS.. I voted No to keep the HST... it is a battle lost.. that is why I believe we should now concentrate on the best use for the money.
--Waiting for a new thread after we know the outcome of the vote. I expect even if we go back to GST/PST that many new products will be added to the PST list in order to bring about the same required revenue. I still haven't seen this government or the government in waiting explain why we needed this revenue and what we are actually going to spend it on... is it past Olympic debt or new programs... I haven't heard an explanation yet. Need to see the balance sheet before speculating on what I'd spend the new found money on.
--I've always been a believer is basic necessities... like tie the minimum wage to the price of draft beer.. when I first worked for min wage of $1.10 I could buy 5 draft beer and still a tip or if being a big spender I'd buy 4 and one for the waiter...how many draft beer can I buy now for one hours work at min wage.
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That's an interesting question for which you probably know the answer.... :)
It's like asking; "My cash flow is really tight this year, would it be ok if I stopped paying the premiums on my house insurance?" The answer is; Of course you could , but what if your house burns down?
Our military is probably more important than ever in this age of wacko terrorists!
The analogy doesn't make sense. Canada lacks a long-term realistic strategy for our armed forces and we're not about to get one from the Harper government. I have no idea what bogeymen we are preparing to do battle with. If we're international peace-keepers, we need ground troops and specialists to assist with rebuilding infrastruture and economies, not frigates and destroyers to shell the populace. If we're on the guard for domestic terrorists, we need better internal security systems, not fighter jets giving us summer air shows. If we're defending our claim to our Arctic territories, we need Coast Guard icebreakers and Arctic stations and an infrastructure that supports the aboriginal communities that call it home. Now that kind of "military" investment of our precious tax dollars is something I could support.
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--If I didn't have to pay taxes I would volunteer to spend some portion of the tax money to hire someone to mow my lawn so I could go fishing.
--I've always been a believer is basic necessities... like tie the minimum wage to the price of draft beer.. when I first worked for min wage of $1.10 I could buy 5 draft beer and still a tip or if being a big spender I'd buy 4 and one for the waiter...how many draft beer can I buy now for one hours work at min wage.
Now you're talking Skaha....fishing and beer in one post.....that's a real tax lesson we can relate to. ;D
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The analogy doesn't make sense. Canada lacks a long-term realistic strategy for our armed forces and we're not about to get one from the Harper government. I have no idea what bogeymen we are preparing to do battle with. If we're international peace-keepers, we need ground troops and specialists to assist with rebuilding infrastruture and economies, not frigates and destroyers to shell the populace. If we're on the guard for domestic terrorists, we need better internal security systems, not fighter jets giving us summer air shows. If we're defending our claim to our Arctic territories, we need Coast Guard icebreakers and Arctic stations and an infrastructure that supports the aboriginal communities that call it home. Now that kind of "military" investment of our precious tax dollars is something I could support.
That's an argument that folks around the world make when they see the amount of money spent on fending off "bogey men". Using the argument of it couldn't happen here does not cut it. I'll leave it to the experts to determine how much and where to spend money on defending our borders. I'd be curious knowing where you got the idea that Canada lacks a long term military strategy.
I would think that owning a few jets would be an essential tool for defending our Arctic Territories.
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I would think that owning a few jets would be an essential tool for defending our Arctic Territories.
Defending them against what, AF? An invasion? The Russians? The Americans? Think it through......
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Defending them against what, AF? An invasion? The Russians? The Americans? Think it through......
Not so much a defense against a literal threat, but more against the threat of claim of ownership. The minerals and natural resources within the arctic are valuable, prolific and very much worth defending.
J
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"Why not look at...draft beer...5 draft beer ...draft beer...buy now...
*Edited for emphasis on most relevant issues*
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Looks like the Liiberals are busy using your tax money paying off their cronies to do the HST vote. So scum sucking fitting that only a loser could defend their non tending of government contracting. Well alwaysphishing what your take on that. Or you going to do a Kevin falcon.
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Looks like the Liiberals are busy using your tax money paying off their cronies to do the HST vote. So scum sucking fitting that only a loser could defend their non tending of government contracting. Well alwaysphishing what your take on that. Or you going to do a Kevin falcon.
Do you and Novabonker use the same writers? ;D
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Thats what I expected.
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Canada lacks a long-term realistic strategy for our armed forces and we're not about to get one from the Harper government.
Heard the armed forces have recently been ordered to reduce their numbers by several thousand.
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If we're international peace-keepers, we need ground troops and specialists to assist with rebuilding infrastruture and economies, not frigates and destroyers to shell the populace. If we're on the guard for domestic terrorists, we need better internal security systems, not fighter jets giving us summer air shows. If we're defending our claim to our Arctic territories, we need Coast Guard icebreakers and Arctic stations and an infrastructure that supports the aboriginal communities that call it home. Now that kind of "military" investment of our precious tax dollars is something I could support.
FYI, Canada's role in "peacekeeping" has always over shadowed her role in "Peacemaking", but only in the public's consciousness. The latter has actually dominated Canadian military history and it is in the latter that we have been most successful. While our role in Egypt in 56 was a great success and earned then PM Pearson a Nobel Prize for peace, our stints in Bosnia, Somalia, and Rwanda were dismal failures at keeping the peace. In our "Peacemaking" role, Canada has had its greatest military successes, despite the failure of our government to properly outfit them: in WWI at Vimy Ridge, in WWII at Orotona and the Neatherlands, and in South Korea during the defense of the Kapyong valley, Hill 677, and Hill 355. Currently our military has performed admirably well in Afghanistan, again in spite of their outdated gear (they were sent to a desert war wearing forest green camo), and despite being given a herculean task that many argue cannot be won. In both WWI and WWII Canada's greatest contribution was in protecting shipping traffic across the Atlantic. In Korea our initial response was Naval Support of the landing at Inchon. "In providing that support a total of eight ships of the Royal Canadian Navy joined their UN and ROK navy colleagues, per-forming a great variety of tasks. They maintained a continuous blockade of the enemy coast; prevented amphibious landings by the enemy; and supported the United Nations land forces by the bombardment of enemy-held coastal areas, and attacks by carrier-borne aircraft. In addition, they protected the friendly islands and brought aid and comfort to the sick and needy of South Korea's isolated fishing villages."
(Veterans Affairs Canada)
In the 1991 Gulf War our Navy again protected NATO ships in the Gulf. While you might question what role a navy has in the modern warfare, remember it was thoughts of the irrelevance of jet airplanes in a world of ICBMs that led to the scrapping of Canada's Avro Arrow. 30 years later we can look back and note that EVERY military engagement since the Korean War has made primary use of jet airplanes. If we do not want to continue to rely on the US to provide our security, some investment in the military appears to be needed. The investment in naval and air forces has traditionally been the focus to allow Canada to provide effective military contributions to international obligations, while limiting the number of Canadian soldiers placed in the direct front lines combat, as they are in Afghanistan today.
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This is the same Washington Marine Group who hired Bruce Clark, brother to Christy Clark, as a lobbyist we're talking about isn't it? ??? That smells pretty bad......
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Not so much a defense against a literal threat, but more against the threat of claim of ownership. The minerals and natural resources within the arctic are valuable, prolific and very much worth defending.
J
That example makes my point exactly JAwrey.....the only other nations that have any territorial claim in the Arctic are the US, Russia, Norway and Denmark and we've signed a treaty (Law of the Sea) that sets out the mechanism to resolve these claims in international court. And claims have been filed and will eventually be resolved according to the treaty. So what's the threat there we're preparing for? A firefight with Russia or the US over parts of the continental shelf? Not bloody likely. So like I said, what we need are infrastructure and support for the aboriginal residents, surveillance aircraft (or satellites) that can collect a variety of data and ice breakers that establish a working presence, not a few very expensive jet fighters doing saber-rattling forays. This is where our current Canada First defence strategy is lacking....a realistic future risk assessment (rather than just more of the same). What are the real future threats and risks we need to prepare for? The world and technology are changing fast......
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Looks like the Liiberals are busy using your tax money paying off their cronies to do the HST vote. So scum sucking fitting that only a loser could defend their non tending of government contracting. Well alwaysphishing what your take on that. Or you going to do a Kevin falcon.
http://www.publiceyeonline.com/archives/006249.html
AF belongs to the elite- he doesn't answer questions when they aren't easy or suit his agenda.
HOW COURAGEOUS! HOW COMMITTED! HOW TYPICAL!
It reminds me of a politician.
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Your right about af, his non answer said volumes though.
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http://alisonbate.ca/maritime/maritime-8/
oh, the HUMANITY! 40 million isn't near enough for these poor , desperate folks. Please help alleviate this horrid squalor by writing your premier and telling her to keep the HST because we need to help them and so many others in the same circumstances. with the obviously bleak future. I think 200 million is more in line with what we citizens need to show how much we care and what benevolent folk we truly are. Please, if you can help - anything, pennies, quarters, nickels. 100 dollar bills forward themto the Washingtons. You'll sleep better if you do.
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Hi Guys and Gals,
I haven't posted much as of late, been far too busy to participate in the past few months. Here are my few cents regarding the this topic...
As many of you know, the HST is designed to shift tax away from business and onto the consumer. I am personally against the tax due to my position against supporting the expansion of oil, gas, and mining exploration in this province.
As a refresher, here are few examples of where the HST removes money from your wallet:
When you try and fix up or sell your house:
• Real estate commissions (translates to an extra $2,500 on selling a 500K house)
• legal/notary fees, commissions and other closing costs
• Home Inspections
• EnergyStar windows
• Thermal insulation, weather stripping, and caulking
• Smoke detectors valued less than $250
• Food producing plants and trees
• Household moving services
• Repair to certain household appliances
• Repair, maintenance or renovation services for real property
• Landscaping, lawn-care, private snow removal, and house cleaning
• Interior design services
Day to Day Hits:
• Basic cable television
• Local residential phone
• Restaurant meals
• Hair stylists/barbers
• Taxis
• Motor vehicle parking
• Accounting services
• Newspapers
• First aid kits
• Certain school supplies
• Magazines
• Adult sized clothing for children
• Shoe repair
• Tailoring services
• Dry cleaning
• Used adult clothing purchased for less than $100
• Snack foods
• Computer software repair services
• Esthetician services
• Cigarettes
• Cigars
• Chewing tobacco
• Veterinarian services
When You're Sick:
• Massage therapy services
• Over-the-counter medications
• Vitamins
When You Want to Have Some Fun:
• Admission to professional sporting events
• Domestic air, rail and bus travel originating in British Columbia
• Movie tickets
• Safety helmets for sports
• Golf memberships and driving range fees
• Ballet, karate, trampoline, hockey, soccer lessons, etc.
• Tickets for live theatre
• Admission to museums and art galleries
• Music concerts
• Ski lift passes
• Fishing Guiding Services
• Children's sized ski boots
• Hockey rink and rental halls
• Music or video purchased and downloaded electronically
• Catering and event planning services
• Wedding planning services
• Camping sites
When You Want to Get healthy:
• Gym and athletic memberships
• Bicycles
• Fitness trainers
• Nicotine replacement products
When You Die:
• Funeral services
A vote for "No" will open the flood gates to mining exploration in BC; you'll help foreign multinationals save 7% on their costs to take what's yours as a matter of fact, they will no longer pay any tax on costs, nor on what they export.
http://www.hstinbc.ca/building_the_economy/industry_specific/mining
B.C.’s mining sectors will benefit significantly from the HST as both their business inputs and their exports are no longer taxed. The HST will help put the B.C. mining sector on a more level playing field with their competitors.
With the HST, these businesses can recover the HST they pay on their business inputs by claiming Input Tax Credits. Input Tax Credits for the HST work the same way they did for the GST. Before the HST, businesses could recover only the 5 per cent GST – they couldn’t get back any of the 7 per cent PST paid. Now most businesses can recover the full 12 per cent HST paid.
The HST is expected to result in savings of about $80 million for the mining and oil and gas sector, which has lately been seeing some of the largest profits in history.
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Another person on the common sense side.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/LOL-Monty_Python_Applause.gif)(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/slowclap.gif)
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Thanks for posting something related to the HST, Nicole! It's good to see someone is thinking through the effects of the HST, as opposed to the political biases we have been reading over the last number of posts.
At this stage whether you and I agree or disagree with HST doesn't matter much as I believe most have cast their ballots. There are a couple points that I have made before and bare repeating.
1. The HST does transfer some tax cost from business to the consumer. This allows BC business to compete with businesses outside of the province. The tradeoff/benefit to the consumer is that as a result of having an employer that is competitive, they get to keep their job! As the businesses expand new jobs get created.
2. When a government needs additional revenue they always raise taxes. A consumption tax like the HST if far better for the economy and far fairer for individuals than income tax. Income tax penalizes the hard worker/risk taker. BC has the second lower income tax rate in Canada.
3. HST is better than PST in that it eliminates paying tax on top of tax. That is good for business and is good for the consumer.
4. All of the newly taxed items that you listed were subject to the 5% GST. Now with the HST they are subject to the 7% PST portion of the HST. For the average person this makes up 20% of the items they spend money on. When the HST is reduced to 10% the over all consumption tax bill for all consumers will be lower in spite of the additional items carrying a higher tax rate.
5. I do not share your opposition to expanding oil and gas exploration in BC. While I do not like the environmental impact these businesses have on our landscape I am realistic enough to realize that we can't have great social services, and low taxes unless we attract new businesses to the province. While HST does make it more attractive for businesses to invest in the province, the businesses bring investment dollars, jobs and new tax revenue to the province.
6. Businesses that benefit from the HST pass most of those savings to the consumer and those that can get away with not passing the saving on to the consumer, end up paying more income tax on their higher profit.
Which ever way the HST vote goes, we will learn to live with it. I am in support of the HST because I believe it will position BC to be a better place for my children and grandchildren to make a living. As a hunter and fisherman I think that industry will strike a balance between developing our natural resources and preserving the environment. The fact is we need the revenue from those resouces.
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From what I've been hearing, the BC government has already taken in 700 million dollars with the new tax, which is interesting considering we've only received 900 million dollars from the feds so far... It's quite the windfall!
There are threats that we'll have to pay back 1.6 billion if we vote it out, but this is not true at all.
We'll only have to pay back 900 million, as the balance is to be paid out next year so we would simply not receive it.
So we should be no further behind as far as what we 'owe' if we've already taken in 700 million... I am sure will be neutral by October if the rate of intake remains consistent.
Just my two cents, it's a very worthy discussion and thanks allwaysfishin for keeping the debate on the facts -
Cheers,
Nicole
PS> I don't want to bring the Neo-Liberals into the debate as it's unrelated to the topic at hand - but here is an interesting read about how Campbell has run our economy into the ground (the 9% interest rate on those new ferry builds is quite shocking, apparently the corp's finances are completely messed now and they don't even take in enough revenue to finance their debt): http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2011/05/art-of-distraction-bc-liberal-and-bc.html
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. . .While I do not like the environmental impact these businesses have on our landscape I am realistic enough to realize that we can't have great social services, and low taxes unless we attract new businesses to the province . . . As a hunter and fisherman I think that industry will strike a balance between developing our natural resources and preserving the environment. The fact is we need the revenue from those resources.
Very optimistic AF, however, I think what this province, and country as a whole, needs is more value added industries, not just more resource extraction companies pillaging the environment as they take our resources out of the country to manufacture into more expensive goods that they can sell back to us. If the HST is going to give us THAT, then I am all over it. More investment is needed in alternative energy and recycling of metals, not more oil, gas, and mineral exploration. Canada is currently the only G7 nation going in reverse with carbon reductions. Encouraging more mineral resource extraction companies is not going to help turn that trend around. It is time we start abandoning the philosophy that economics is the primary driving force in our lives and embrace the reality that the environment is the foundation upon which economic development takes place.
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Very optimistic AF, however, I think what this province, and country as a whole, needs is more value added industries, not just more resource extraction companies pillaging the environment as they take our resources out of the country to manufacture into more expensive goods that they can sell back to us. If the HST is going to give us THAT, then I am all over it. More investment is needed in alternative energy and recycling of metals, not more oil, gas, and mineral exploration. Canada is currently the only G7 nation going in reverse with carbon reductions. Encouraging more mineral resource extraction companies is not going to help turn that trend around. It is time we start abandoning the philosophy that economics is the primary driving force in our lives and embrace the reality that the environment is the foundation upon which economic development takes place.
I have no idea what the last part of your statement means but without economics as the driving force we become a 3rd world country. That being said I'd be content having some acreage and living off the land, but I'd be surprised if 1% of the population would be interested in that lifestyle. When you have 99% of the population wanting bigger, better and faster the only way they will get that is by taking advantage of every resource available.
Alberta is often looked at a utopia where all they pay is 5% GST, and the lowest income taxes in Canada. Their highways are the best in Canada. The secret to their success...... gas and oil!
Convince 99% of BC's population that they should pay higher taxes and they'll support your idea to stop pillaging the environment to get at the resources.... :)
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From what I've been hearing, the BC government has already taken in 700 million dollars with the new tax, which is interesting considering we've only received 900 million dollars from the feds so far... It's quite the windfall!
There are threats that we'll have to pay back 1.6 billion if we vote it out, but this is not true at all.
We'll only have to pay back 900 million, as the balance is to be paid out next year so we would simply not receive it.
So we should be no further behind as far as what we 'owe' if we've already taken in 700 million... I am sure will be neutral by October if the rate of intake remains consistent.
Just my two cents, it's a very worthy discussion and thanks allwaysfishin for keeping the debate on the facts -
Cheers,
Nicole
I don't know all the accounting on the HST and I am hesitant to believe the anti-HST's accounting on the tax. My support for the HST is based on the logic that when our businesses can produce a more competitive product (no imbedded PST), they will sell more, grow and create more jobs in BC. This is good for BC
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I have no idea what the last part of your statement means but without economics as the driving force we become a 3rd world country. That being said I'd be content having some acreage and living off the land, but I'd be surprised if 1% of the population would be interested in that lifestyle. When you have 99% of the population wanting bigger, better and faster the only way they will get that is by taking advantage of every resource available.
Alberta is often looked at a utopia where all they pay is 5% GST, and the lowest income taxes in Canada. Their highways are the best in Canada. The secret to their success...... gas and oil!
Convince 99% of BC's population that they should pay higher taxes and they'll support your idea to stop pillaging the environment to get at the resources.... :)
You said it. But don't worry, you are not alone. Most Free enterprisers like yourself do not understand it (or choose to ignore it). That is the problem with the world today. The sooner you folks figure it out, the better our chances of surviving your ignorance.
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When you have 99% of the population wanting bigger, better and faster the only way they will get that is by taking advantage of every resource available.
So because 99% of the population wants it, you (free enterpriser that you are) might as well give it to them even if it means using every available resource. So forget about future generations...what do you owe them right AF?
Alberta is often looked at a utopia where all they pay is 5% GST, and the lowest income taxes in Canada. Their highways are the best in Canada. The secret to their success...... gas and oil!
Again, if they can get rich pillaging the environment, why not in BC to? It is only fair, right? Wow these are stellar arguments, AF.
Convince 99% of BC's population that they should pay higher taxes and they'll support your idea to stop pillaging the environment to get at the resources.... :)
I love how shifting from carbon producing economies to green economies are equated to tax hikes. Nice scare tactics, AF.
To borrow from the Green Vision:
This generation has the potential to capitalize on the single biggest business opportunity in human history – the shift to a low-carbon economy. Whether this is driven by the need to end the recession through economic stimulus, high energy prices, dwindling oil supplies, strategic geopolitical threats to foreign oil, the climate crisis or all of them combined, the country that mobilizes resources to develop and commercialize low-carbon technologies (e.g. alternate fuels, renewable energy and energy efficiency) will survive the price shocks of fossil fuel’s last gasps and emerge with a thriving economy. Canada should be that country.
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quote from the cheerleader of no future.
"When you have 99% of the population wanting bigger, better and faster the only way they will get that is by taking advantage of every resource available. "
Total race to the bottom. Promoting those economics sure looks questionable. That's why economists should try to review the crap their taught.
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You said it. But don't worry, you are not alone. Most Free enterprisers like yourself do not understand it (or choose to ignore it). That is the problem with the world today. The sooner you folks figure it out, the better our chances of surviving your ignorance.
Not all entrepreneurs are captivated by the shiny toy. Some, like myself, aren't governed entirely by pig trough greed and heartless plundering of others to achieve personal wealth.
Alberta? Utopia? I can't stop laughing at that comment.
as opposed to the political biases we have been reading over the last number of posts.
Um, take a look at who authored the "Independent study" and tell me there was no political bias AF- try again, as the liberals are one more time splattered with the contents. Too political? Now that's funny!
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/firms-with-bc-liberal-ties-awarded-secret-contracts-in-pro-hst-campaign/article2109375/
Internal government guidelines would normally have required those contracts to be awarded via a competitive process because they’re valued at $25,000 or more. But the guidelines allow that process to be circumvented – and contracts awarded without public notice – if it would “compromise government confidentiality.”
Finance Ministry communications director Matt Gordon said that justification was used because the “information, strategies and discussions” disclosed during such a competition would have been of a “privileged” nature. The government was also worried anti-HST forces could gum up a bidding process and delay the start of those contracts.
Campaign Research Ltd., which worked on cabinet minister George Abbott’s unsuccessful campaign for the Liberal leadership, got the biggest contract – receiving $167,800 for conducting the government’s telephone town-hall meetings on the HST.
The company didn’t respond Monday to a request for comment. Mr. Gordon said Campaign Research wasn’t given that work because of its Liberal connection, but rather because it provided the best value out of three quotes privately solicited by the government.
Another $52,746.75 went to Backbone Technology Inc. to develop the province’s HST information website. Backbone has worked for the Liberals since 2001, setting up a private intranet for the party executive, as well as the Liberal website.
Company president and chief executive officer Marc Charalambous acknowledged those Liberal links, and confirmed that party information director Hoong Neoh provides advice to Backbone on an informal, volunteer basis.
But Mr. Gordon said it was the company’s “good reputation” for delivering high-profile government projects on time – including websites for reviews on health care and postsecondary education – that got it the contract.
“I was called to look at doing this in a short timeline – which is typically the kinds of work we’ve done for the government. We’ve done quite a few projects over the last five or six years under such an environment,” added Mr. Charalambous.
The third contract went to Mr. Andrew, who says he was initially hired to provide “political analysis” to Tom Syer, the head of the HST information office. The contract was initially set at $17,700, but its value was later raised and it has paid out more than $33,000.
Mr. Syer, who served as a deputy chief of staff to former premier Gordon Campbell, later asked Mr. Andrew to help the independent panel. That included organizing its meetings and assisting its chair, Jim Dinning – Alberta’s former provincial treasurer – in preparing the agendas.
Mr. Andrew stressed he personally felt it was “very important” he not provide the panel with any kind of political analysis, given his connection to former finance minister Colin Hansen.
“I did not do so. Jim would not have allowed me to do so. Let me assure you that I was kicked out of the room whenever discussions on contentious issues were being had. It was purely logistical.”
Records obtained by The Globe and Mail also show the HST information office directly awarded additional contracts worth up to $163,810 on behalf of the independent panel.
Michael Goehring, vice-president of National Public Relations Inc., received a contract worth up to $4,000 to confidentially ensure the report was plainly written and contained no omissions, while former Vancouver Sun Victoria correspondent Miro Cernetig got one worth up to $37,500 to research, review and produce that document.
Kirk and Co. Consulting Ltd. – the communications firm headed by Judy Kirk, who served as the Liberal caucus’s executive director between 1994 and 1996 – was also given a contract worth up to $25,000 to provide the panel with media and public-relations advice.
Mr. Gordon said it was Ms. Kirk’s reputation not her political background that resulted in the award.
And still more stench.......
http://lailayuile.com/2011/07/28/surely-this-must-be-a-violation-of-the-elections-act/
Dear Friends:As we enter the final days before voting ends on the HST referendum I wanted to take this opportunity to update you on the status of our effort on the ‘NO’ side to keep the HST. Our efforts to engage with British Columbians and get their input into how to improve the HST are paying dividends. Since announcing the reduction of the HST to 10 per cent and ensure families come out ahead, we have closed the margins significantly and we are within reach of a slim victory. In fact, some polling suggests we are in a statistical tie when you factor in the margin of error. With a race as close as this has become, I am asking that each and every one of you commit to a final push in your riding to try and identify every last possible vote and move us across the goal posts to deliver a victory for British Columbians.It’s undeniable that implementing the HST has caused us some political pain but the fact remains we can, and will, get past this difficult issue and get back to what we should be focused on – building support for the only truly free enterprise party in BC and providing British Columbians with strong, effective governance and leadership.
With a victory within our grasp, I am asking all of you to spend as much time as possible focused on getting the vote out in your community to ensure British Columbians are returning their ballots and marking them with a ‘NO’ to higher taxes and a 12 per cent PST plus GST.
Ballot packages must be received by Elections BC, a Service BC Centre, or an Elections BC Collection Centre before 4:30 pm, Friday, August 5, 2011.
British Columbians need this victory for a strong economic future. We are close and I’m convinced a final push by us all will be enough to secure the win and help get the province back on track.
Regards and good luck,
Hon. Kevin Falcon
Minister of Finance
Authorized By Jim Pipe, Financial Agent BC Liberal Party.
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I work in the film industry. The HST is VERY GOOD for the film industry, and good for my wallet as a result. If my job or job security was more important to me than everything wrong about the hst (partially summed up by Nicole, thank you...) then I'd have to vote "No". Fortunately, it's not. I'll be voting "yes" to ditch it, mostly because I believe that the HST favors people who do not need tax breaks while the people that need every little bit of change they have get the short end of the stick. Basically, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer....not a healthy trend and not the kind of values I will ever support, no matter the costs to me personally.
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I don't know all the accounting on the HST and I am hesitant to believe the anti-HST's accounting on the tax.
that's the problem with taxes...there are no public information access on how our tax dollars are being spent...all we have to go on is what we hear about in the news...so with that said, I base my decision on History not political rhetoric and empty promises.
My support for the HST is based on the logic that when our businesses can produce a more competitive product (no imbedded PST), they will sell more, grow and create more jobs in BC. This is good for BC
i say we need to invest in innovation rather than rely on our depleting resources.
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I have no idea what the last part of your statement means but without economics as the driving force we become a 3rd world country. That being said I'd be content having some acreage and living off the land, but I'd be surprised if 1% of the population would be interested in that lifestyle. When you have 99% of the population wanting bigger, better and faster the only way they will get that is by taking advantage of every resource available.
Alberta is often looked at a utopia where all they pay is 5% GST, and the lowest income taxes in Canada. Their highways are the best in Canada. The secret to their success...... gas and oil!
Convince 99% of BC's population that they should pay higher taxes and they'll support your idea to stop pillaging the environment to get at the resources.... :)
--I think they only have one flat lander highway and it didn't cost as much per KM as the one's in BC
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-I think its called HST like I said before its all in how they spend it.
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It's all over now except the tears.
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Pls delete - thought I was on my account!
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What bothers me the most is the money being spent by the Liberals on propoganda trying to convince me that another tax is a good thing and I am being asked to believe the word of a government that said ,it would not bring in the HST in the first place, that it will reduce the tax to 10% from 12% in the near future. From past history with incometax (brought in to pay for the war and never removed) and the GST(didn't we have an election run and won on the removal of the GST) I have a hard time believing any government when they claim they will reduce, remove or that restructuring a tax will be less costly for the average tax payer. Corperate or bussiness maybe but I have found several items not listed in thier official site that have gone up. One for all families is the tax on childrens clothing. Only time will tell but I have my doubts the average BC tax payer will get much good from this tax restructuring, lets be honest if it did not bring in more money for government they would not be bringing it into play period and thier fav place to get money is the working people of BC and Canada. :-\
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Went to Science World yesterday after the Cohen Inquiry and saw the Dinosaurs film Dinosaurs Alive which was excellent too. But we paid over $5 HST. For something educational. :'( :o :(
Oh well, it goes down tomorrow. ;D ;D Time to fish the Canyon but will try a lake with Terry first and forget politics. ;D ;D ;D
Sorry I will miss you crying tomorrow Always. ;D ;D ;D
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Went to Science World yesterday after the Cohen Inquiry and saw the Dinosaurs film Dinosaurs Alive which was excellent too. But we paid over $5 HST. For something educational. :'( :o :(
Oh well, it goes down tomorrow. ;D ;D Time to fish the Canyon but will try a lake with Terry first and forget politics. ;D ;D ;D
Sorry I will miss you crying tomorrow Always. ;D ;D ;D
Hopefully they'll be tears of joy! ;D ;D
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55% to axe the tax
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Well the dippers are happy
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Time for taxpayers to pull out their cheque books. This is going to cost us. Not only that, but it could take 2 years to make the change....
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Yup 3 billion in tax revenue gone, hmmmmmmm.
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I wonder how they will make up for the short fall now. I know we are disappointed, sure made doing the books for the business a whole lot easier. The movie industry is not happy, a couple of my buddies work in the industry and they know that there will be less filming in BC now that the HST is going. The movies loved the HST and they do employ a lot people and dump huge dollars into our economy. Well I guess the people have spoken and Mr. Bill has once again pulled the wool over the eyes of BCer's.
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The PEOPLE have spoken. Democracy- get over it.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t82/Willy1956/whine-and-cheese.jpg)
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Ooops Double post. Next chapter!
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Came in from fishing the lake to just catch the results, taped it so can post here later for us to enjoy hearing again. ;D
If the Liberals want to get anything out of this they need to stop collecting it in the next month. Give me a break that it takes over a year to do so as they are saying, they sure brought it in quick enough didn't they.
Also my understanding is they were getting the money in installments from the Feds so it is not 1.6 billion that has to be paid back.
Back to fishing. ;D ;D ;D
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Congrats to you and all the others that put democracy back in our grasp Chris. Take a bow.
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Why has it been lost on some that this money has to come from somewhere...while the big-bad HST has been abolished, something else has come up.
Congrats. Not sure what for, but congrats.
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Lots of chopping indeed. Let's start with reintroducing the bank tax Carole Taylor gifted the banks. Let's look at the pig trough at the executive level at BC Ferries, BC Hydro, and other areas. Don't give me he pay to retain the best and brightest. Those rocket scientists got us in the jam.Let's look at the propaganda arm or PAB, eating 26 million plus annually. Maybe a tax increase on higher incomes that have seen the majority of dollars in the tax cuts. They don't have to pay back all the bribe because it was only part paid to the province.
Lots of wood, too few axes.
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Unfortunately, they'll find some other way to ding us... probably through some hidden way or increase of existing tax. :-\
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Well the one good thing at least we will get another Liberal majority out of it, cause if Dix and the dippers get in look out, you guys will be screamin for the HST back..... ;D ;D ;D
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Yup 3 billion in tax revenue gone, hmmmmmmm.
OH? I thought this tax was to be revenue neutral? Prices also did not go down, many went up since they were only one tax items. Plus where are all these new jobs?
But the people have spoken and unlike Harper this vote was a majority of people to get rid of it.
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Well the one good thing at least we will get another Liberal majority out of it, cause if Dix and the dippers get in look out, you guys will be screamin for the HST back..... ;D ;D ;D
How do you figure that? If John Cummins and the cons gain in popularity they will split the vote with the other conservative party calling themselves Liberals and NDP will win. Still almost two years until next election too, unless Christy will break the election law or rescind it. But wasn't the point of having it so politicians could not call elections at opportune times?
Plus the NDP did leave a surplus, kept ferry jobs in BC, skytrain cars in BC unlike the libs who jacked up msp fees, camping fees and tried to shift more taxes onto the people from corps. They lied about BC Rail.The German Ferries are not up to snuff yet the media which is all pro Liberal never mentions that do they? Same with the over runs of convention centre and how cost of new roof at BC Place went from 350 million to 550...Nary a word. If the Lame stream media in BC ever told the truth the Liberals would never get in again.
I also think it is time to start taxing corps properly. Corporate capital tax went from 16 to 10 percent under libs and corporate capital tax totally eliminated...
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Shall I start with the dippers then, say from Bingo gate and on.
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Shall I start with the dippers then, say from Bingo gate and on.
And the Liberals have been pure as virgin snow..... ::) They're all crooks.
Some required reading for Crusty's cheering section here:
http://thecanadian.org/k2/item/969-dave-cobb-hydro-ipp-christy-clark-rafe
http://alexgtsakumis.com/ see the BC Rail "honesty" :o
or you can look up the debacle called BC Ferries and lots of other things that the Liberals have done to the electorate. Oddly enough, most of the honey that falls off the provincial platter lands on the Liberal supporters. Here ya go! Driven snow!
http://thetyee.ca/News/2005/04/14/TopDonorsThrive/
No Bassonator- they're all crooks. That's why today's events are important. It's time a government led for the people, not their financial supporters.
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Still almost two years until next election too, unless Christy will break the election law or rescind it...
Who knows whats rattling around in that crazy bowl cut of hers...
I still think that, although the people have spoken, their voice has come out, democracy prevailed, additional soapbox bull***t - BCer's voted wrong, courtesy of a man who is clearly a shining example of financial wisdom.
J
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And the Liberals have been pure as virgin snow..... ::) They're all crooks.
Some required reading for Crusty's cheering section here:
http://thecanadian.org/k2/item/969-dave-cobb-hydro-ipp-christy-clark-rafe
http://alexgtsakumis.com/ see the BC Rail "honesty" :o
or you can look up the debacle called BC Ferries and lots of other things that the Liberals have done to the electorate. Oddly enough, most of the honey that falls off the provincial platter lands on the Liberal supporters. Here ya go! Driven snow!
http://thetyee.ca/News/2005/04/14/TopDonorsThrive/
No Bassonator- they're all crooks. That's why today's events are important. It's time a government led for the people, not their financial supporters.
Left wing diatribe......just sayin.
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Tough to take you seriously when you're avatar is a cartoon child rubbing himself- just sayin' ::)
All I posted was facts, pure and simple- Reread what I stated - they''re all crooks.Not just one party, all of them. I was just changing my grand child's diaper and was reminded of politics.
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Didnt realize that an avatar was used to judge someones maturity.... ;D
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The BC Government never received the $1.6 billion. It was being received in instalments, and the last I read we had received 1 billion so far but made an EXTRA 800 million on the HST (probably more by now). So we don't owe anything; it's fear mongering.
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My letter to Bill tonight.
Good work on this Bill. You and your group did just a wonderful job the last year or more, we cannot thank you enough. Thanks to Jackie and Frank who collected so many signatures here in Chilliwack along with Gwen, Glen and Clive who worked on this as well with the sign campaign, in the Chilliwack area
Please tell me why it takes 18 months to stop the government from collecting this hated tax. It should be done away in no more than a month. I am thinking of saving all my receipts with the HST on it from after Thursday and submitting it to Victoria to get my funds back. Also they talk about having to pay back 1.6 billion. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the Fed's paying money in installments and there is a few million BC has not been given yet? I have never heard the press say this all they do is talk about paying 1. 6 billion back.
Thanks so much again for leading us on this campaign.
Kindest regards,
Chris
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Response back from Bill on the above post.
It should take no longer than 6 weeks if they wish it. Keep in mind that big business collects, from the consumer, about $ 6 million dollars, and the B.C. Liberal government collects about 2 + million dollars for every day the hst remains in place. It also gives big business and government time to “cry the crocodile tears” and blame all those that voted to reject the hst for any economic downturn regardless of cause – and downturn there will be especially if the government wills it by delaying the extinguishment of the hst. Bill Vander Zalm
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Response back from Bill on the above post.
It should take no longer than 6 weeks if they wish it. Keep in mind that big business collects, from the consumer, about $ 6 million dollars, and the B.C. Liberal government collects about 2 + million dollars for every day the hst remains in place. It also gives big business and government time to “cry the crocodile tears” and blame all those that voted to reject the hst for any economic downturn regardless of cause – and downturn there will be especially if the government wills it by delaying the extinguishment of the hst. Bill Vander Zalm
Still don't trust the guy.
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Still don't trust the guy.
x2
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My letter to the editor in today's Chilliwack Progress.
http://www.bclocalnews.com/fraser_valley/theprogress/opinion/letters/128681253.html
Questions linger over failed HST
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Chilliwack Progress
■Questions linger after boy hit on bike
■Decision day draws near for HST
■Post HST: So now what?
Fraser Valley
■HST debate: Still unconvinced
■No sense in repealing HST
Published: August 30, 2011 9:00 AM
Updated: August 30, 2011 9:44 AM
I am wondering why the Liberal government are now saying after the British Columbia voter has spoken it will most likely take 18 months to stop collecting this hated tax. In my mind it should be done away in no more than a couple of months. How can it take 18 months to go back to the old PST-GST tax system? I feel if the present government has any chance of being elected for another term they should just do that. Maybe they just want to collect as much money as they can before it is axed for good.
With MLAs Penner and Black recently calling it a day and with more surely to follow they know their government has made so many mistakes with British Colombia’s finances, IPPs, BC Hydro and BC Rail to name a few they have opened the window for Dix and his party to form government in the very near future.
Also Kevin Falcon and others keep talking about now having to pay back $1.6 billion total to the federal government. Correct me if I am wrong, but weren’t the feds paying money to B.C. in installments and there is around $500 million British Columbia has not been given yet? They should have plenty of surplus money made on the HST to date so this should not create a financial drain on the treasury of British Columbia.
Maybe we should be saving all our receipts from last Thursday on with the HST on them and send them to Victoria to collect our funds back, stranger things have happened with this HST tax the last few months when it first surfaced and announced by Campbell and company, a tax that has cost the average working people money they could not and still cannot afford.
Chris Gadsden
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The film industry whiners- they make BILLIONS , but always wanting more. Here's some of the gravy they get already, but it's like the spoiled child at the checkout.....
http://www.bcfilm.bc.ca/downloadables/PSTC_onesheet_Mar2010.pdf
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The film industry whiners- they make BILLIONS
Yes they do - but the BILLIONS is the gross total of all tickets sold BEFORE any expenditures are taken into account.
Have you looked into how much is actually is actually spent here in BC by the foreign film industry (which make the bulk of the BILLIONS) as compared to the local companies?
http://www.bcfilmcommission.com/about_us/industry_profile/production_stats.php
I for one would rather have my taxes partially re-imburse a foreign company (for the accredited qualified BC labour expenditure) for providing employment to the BC locals as opposed to having no jobs at all because there are other Provinces/States offering something similar to the same film industry.
Plus - the film industry also spends a lot of monies on other things other than labour - set creation, transportation, food....
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Yes they do - but the BILLIONS is the gross total of all tickets sold BEFORE any expenditures are taken into account.
Have you looked into how much is actually is actually spent here in BC by the foreign film industry (which make the bulk of the BILLIONS) as compared to the local companies?
http://www.bcfilmcommission.com/about_us/industry_profile/production_stats.php
I for one would rather have my taxes partially re-imburse a foreign company (for the accredited qualified BC labour expenditure) for providing employment to the BC locals as opposed to having no jobs at all because there are other Provinces/States offering something similar to the same film industry.
Plus - the film industry also spends a lot of monies on other things other than labour - set creation, transportation, food....
Now there you go logically explaining the reason to someone who just wants to throw out emotional rants on a subject he doesn't understand.... I appreciate your efforts, unfortunately he will just respond by ranting about your right wing leanings... ::)
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I would have thought that defending taxpayers subsidizing jobs would be left-leaning, not right-leaning. ???
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I would have thought that defending taxpayers subsidizing jobs would be left-leaning, not right-leaning. ???
Creating jobs just makes corporations rich according to the left-leaning. As a result the left-leaning would rather just give handouts than having people actually work for an income...
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Now there you go logically explaining the reason to someone who just wants to throw out emotional rants on a subject he doesn't understand.... I appreciate your efforts, unfortunately he will just respond by ranting about your right wing leanings...
You're right... Reading (or listening) to Bill's verbal diarrhea is bad enough! 6 weeks to roll back ::) He's really out of touch with reality. Oh - that explains the name:'Fantasy Gardens"
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Oh - that explains the name:'Fantasy Gardens"
http://operatorchan.org/t/src/t256043_r16007_Well-played-sir.jpg
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You're right... Reading (or listening) to Bill's verbal diarrhea is bad enough! 6 weeks to roll back ::) He's really out of touch with reality. Oh - that explains the name:'Fantasy Gardens"
Can you please explain to us why they say it will take 18 months to get rid of the HST and bring in the PST and GST?
Thanks in advance for the response and explaination.
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You're right... Reading (or listening) to Bill's verbal diarrhea is bad enough! 6 weeks to roll back ::) He's really out of touch with reality. Oh - that explains the name:'Fantasy Gardens"
Going to take so long to roll back to the old system so they can squeze every last cent out of us. Whacko Gordo take your H.S.T and shove it up where the sun dont shine!The people have spoken! I wont have to pay tax on my kids school supplies when the old system is restored. How slimey was that slapping H.S.T on kids school supplies.Pcs of Sh@$t you Liberals.
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Creating jobs just makes corporations rich according to the left-leaning. As a result the left-leaning would rather just give handouts than having people actually work for an income...
Any time ya wanna learn about hard work little buddy, and I mean ANY TIME AT ALL come on out and spend a day with me. Unless you're afraid of getting sweat stains on your silk boxers and wrinkling the Brooks Brothers...... I'll even pay you ( the same miserable $8 an hour ya claim is fair!) ::) ;D :o
But why is government lolly only to some AF? Hardly seems fair that some get the teat and some get to pay for the teat.And don't even try to feed me the bullsh*t about the film industry not being able to make money. That just doesn't fly.
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Any time ya wanna learn about hard work little buddy, and I mean ANY TIME AT ALL come on out and spend a day with me. Unless you're afraid of getting sweat stains on your silk boxers and wrinkling the Brooks Brothers...... I'll even pay you ( the same miserable $8 an hour ya claim is fair!) ::) ;D :o
But why is government lolly only to some AF? Hardly seems fair that some get the teat and some get to pay for the teat.
Hard work can be done in the physical medium just as readily as the intellectual medium. Neither is more noble or more taxing than the other.
And do you honestly believe that a government has ever, will ever, could ever be "fair"? If so, where did you snag the happy pills. Government is an imperfect system.
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Government was just forced, albeit with a lot of whining, kicking and screaming, to be fair Jawknee.
My point was that left leaning folk go out and work hard as well.His Royal Highness AF considers anyone who doesn't worship at the altar of the Fraser Institute unworthy of sharing his air.
ALTHOUGH
I doubt highly that "Financial advising" would be the cause of 3 knee surgeries like I got from flooring installation.
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Can you please explain to us why they say it will take 18 months to get rid of the HST and bring in the PST and GST?
That I cannot - possibly the same rectal pluck wild eyed guess as '6 weeks' ::)
All businesses that use computers/cash registers to generate bills/receipts must be reprogrammed to accomodate the old PST/GST settings. This is not as simple as flicking a switch to turn on a light bulb (albeit - there are a few that I can think of who may have such difficulties). In most cases, the SMALL business owner will require a techie to come visit and reprogram their equipment (on the business owners dime). I highly doubt that there are as many such qualified techies to perform this feat in 6 weeks.
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Government was just forced, albeit with a lot of whining, kicking and screaming, to be fair Jawknee.
My point was that left leaning folk go out and work hard as well.His Royal Highness AF considers anyone who doesn't worship at the altar of the Fraser Institute unworthy of sharing his air.
ALTHOUGH
I doubt highly that "Financial advising" would be the cause of 3 knee surgeries like I got from flooring installation.
Wow, I must admit - dedicating all that brain power to what can only be described as a juvenile, flat out pathetic attempt at parodying my name is flattering! Congrats! You've officially been inducted into the Poor Execution Hall of Fame!
3 knee surgeries? No, probably not. But if you had actually read what I had written and not responded with a slapdash attempt at debate, you would have understood that, perhaps, AF put in his hardwork in a mental medium, rather than a physical one. Having played both AAA hockey and am now a gigging musician, I understand this.
BUT
I am through with attempting debate with you, NB. You have resorted to schoolyard insults, and as a result you have completely eradicated any hope for intelligent discussion. Good day.
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See the problems happening in the USA...politians & Pres. bring out all these new rules & idea...& before anything happens ..they change things & bring our an all new system as a temp. solution...
Now we get this GST/PST then out of the blue come HST (basically MORE TAX GRAB from us THE PEOPLE)
Liberals claimed it just is not so....now that the people have spoken they now say our tax grab will be LESS....in other words they admitted now that HST cost us tax payers MORE $$$ out of our wallets.
Good for BILL V Z...for spearing this fight ..guess Robin Hoods still exists.
Mind ya these so called experts in gov ONLY complicate things BIG TIME... math is simple ...if they taxed the people 10% of yearly earnings NO MATTER WHAT YOUR INCOME.. 5% to the Prov. 5% to the Feds...then have normal taxes...gas booze cigs sales etc...guess what ??????? This nation will be in very good shape !!!
People would be left with 90% of their PAY CHECK which means they will go out & spend on theiir desires hobbies pleasures...yes sports fishing items...boats & outboards...new computers...cell phones...gardening...eat out...theatre...ON & ON...buy homes....etc....buy veicles...when people spend it only creates JOB JOBS & JOBS....then gov collects more INCOME TAX...SALES TAX etc...
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Wow, I must admit - dedicating all that brain power to what can only be described as a juvenile, flat out pathetic attempt at parodying my name is flattering! Congrats! You've officially been inducted into the Poor Execution Hall of Fame!
3 knee surgeries? No, probably not. But if you had actually read what I had written and not responded with a slapdash attempt at debate, you would have understood that, perhaps, AF put in his hardwork in a mental medium, rather than a physical one. Having played both AAA hockey and am now a gigging musician, I understand this.
BUT
I am through with attempting debate with you, NB. You have resorted to schoolyard insults, and as a result you have completely eradicated any hope for intelligent discussion. Good day.
Wow. I'll try not to be humorous as that was NOT meant to be a "schoolyard insult"(although your response might be seen as such). I'm sorry your so sensitive and took it the wrong way, no need to get your knickers in a knot. My rugby team mate Rawknee thinks his moniker was such a hoot,so much so that he had it put on his jersey for our British tour. I guess rugby players have thicker hides than hockey players, but as I play both sports I haven't seen it. Anyway, have a nice life, good luck with your music and catch lots of fish.
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Mind ya these so called experts in gov ONLY complicate things BIG TIME... math is simple ...if they taxed the people 10% of yearly earnings NO MATTER WHAT YOUR INCOME.. 5% to the Prov. 5% to the Feds...then have normal taxes...gas booze cigs sales etc...guess what ? This nation will be in very good shape !!!
People would be left with 90% of their PAY CHECK which means they will go out & spend on theiir desires hobbies pleasures...yes sports fishing items...boats & outboards...new computers...cell phones...gardening...eat out...theatre...ON & ON...buy homes....etc....buy veicles...when people spend it only creates JOB JOBS & JOBS....then gov collects more INCOME TAX...SALES TAX etc...
Nice idea - with all of the hands being held out for 'help' (not just companies - think social services, arts, etc), wages & benefits (gov't employees - ie: health and education are huge) and other items - 10% is not enough....
BTW - 'Normal Taxes' ??? Wasn't there a vote recently pertaining to a 'simplified' SALES TAX that was kiboshed?
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It's getting cold outside watching for the sky to fall. ;D