Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum

Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: rides bike to work on December 23, 2009, 04:42:58 PM

Title: c&r and bait bans
Post by: rides bike to work on December 23, 2009, 04:42:58 PM
 I have notice a ever increasing pressure on the vedder river over the past 3-4 years not just salmon but steelhead season is going the same direction.The increasing pressure on this river is eventually going to have an real impact.I know hatchery fish are produced to catch but the catching and releasing of hundreds of wild steal head is eventually going to have an impact.I read and old artical that lends the theory that the meat fisher who catches his one steal for the day and goes home has less impact on the resource than the c&r fisher who catches five fish in a day  continuing to fish.For the sake of conservation why doesn't the vedder have a bait ban like many of the vancouver island rivers.The science is proven why dont we take lessons from our neighbors before it becomes a problem here?
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: kingpin on December 23, 2009, 06:29:31 PM
sigh......why would you want to target bait fisherman who are catching fish legit instead of snaggers who are doing more damage?
its a hatchery river, you acknowledged as much....lets start by putting in a rule requiring all wild steelhead be kept in the water...that would do FAR more good than a bait ban.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: the carp on December 23, 2009, 07:48:40 PM
rides bike, sorry but I agree with kingpin, i have never seen a study on c&r that proved bait fishing had a higher mortality rate than an artificial bait fishery, and i do think a lot of rivers with bait bans are systems which have runs of summer run steelhead which seem to be still actively feeding. Personally in my many years on the river i can count the number of bleeders I have had on one hand.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: rides bike to work on December 23, 2009, 09:16:41 PM
The studies  prove bait bans help with conservation of a species there is obvious science other wise there wouldn't be laws like on the island.I worry about increased pressure and if the wild stocks can handle this increased I dont think snagging is a problem when it comes to our steel head fishery and I am not attacking bait fishermen I have just witness the success of bait bans on rivers such as the stamp and sanjuan and think we should follow suit .
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: skaha on December 24, 2009, 12:10:24 PM
The studies  prove bait bans help with conservation of a species there is obvious science other wise there wouldn't be laws like on the island.I worry about increased pressure and if the wild stocks can handle this increased I dont think snagging is a problem when it comes to our steel head fishery and I am not attacking bait fishermen I have just witness the success of bait bans on rivers such as the stamp and sanjuan and think we should follow suit .

-- I think the science has more to do with the experience of the fisher..
--A bait fisher that is attending the rod will not necessarily deep hook. also circle hook with little or no siwash should reduce deep hook.
--Generally the feeling was that bait fishers were some kind of barbaric meat fisher with no regard for the resource. On the other hand we have the bait ban snaggers. Each method have their problem fishers.
--I fish a variety of methods.. bait to pure dry fly.. If problems arise I switch.  hook size, style or presentation all affect how the fish are hooked.
--I had more than  a few arm wrestling matches with the dry fly fishers that announced they had 50 + realease days which unless catching bass probably resulted in a few dead fish. Lets work on enhancing more areas for legit fishers to fish rather than increase regulation which will only be enforced on those that already care about the resource.



Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: superstick on December 24, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
rides bike to work  over 600,000 steelhead up the columbia river this year no bait ban thats successful .the last 10 years with a bait ban on the stamp have all been going down hill .the same goes for all other bait ban rivers that I have fished.the vedder how ever seems to be having better success on most years
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: kingpin on December 24, 2009, 04:39:40 PM
The studies  prove bait bans help with conservation of a species there is obvious science other wise there wouldn't be laws like on the island.I worry about increased pressure and if the wild stocks can handle this increased I dont think snagging is a problem when it comes to our steel head fishery and I am not attacking bait fishermen I have just witness the success of bait bans on rivers such as the stamp and sanjuan and think we should follow suit .

you dont think snagging is a problem in steelhead season? go to limit hole when they stack up there....canal, lickman etc... when the water is low and fish congregate the snaggers come out and its sickening.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: jeff on December 24, 2009, 10:40:37 PM
I used to think that snagging or flossing didnt happen during steely season because I thought that the guys that were out were fishing for the right reasons. My view on that changed a few years ago when I saw it first hand at the cement slab, and man was I disappointed. :'(
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: RVT on December 25, 2009, 02:28:37 PM
A bait ban won't solve anything. Too many people are bringing their Fraser River techniques to the smaller rivers. 8 foot "leaders" with a corky and a 3/0 hook  meets the criteria of a bait ban.  The smaller river systems, with smaller numbers of fish can't handle these methods.  These people read about the fishing opportunities on the net and decide to use Fraser river methods on the smaller systems, what the hell, it caught tons of sockeye and springs in the past,(when was the last sockeye opening, and how was YOUR spring season).  Education is the key,  and the meat hunters have to be kept off the rivers.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: Birdsnest on January 10, 2010, 01:30:43 PM
Okay.. everyone says,  a bait ban is not necessary, the big problem is snaggers.. etc.. mortality no different.. studies.. etc..

So... I'll ask..

Why do you fish bait?  Because you catch more fish? 

And what if we look and find mortality studies that show natural bait does increase mortality.  What then? Will you support a bait ban?



Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: lapetitebuse on January 10, 2010, 06:10:38 PM
I think the regulation says that once you killed a steelhead, you have to stop fishing.
Is it true?
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: chris gadsden on January 10, 2010, 06:16:53 PM
rides bike, sorry but I agree with kingpin, i have never seen a study on c&r that proved bait fishing had a higher mortality rate than an artificial bait fishery, and i do think a lot of rivers with bait bans are systems which have runs of summer run steelhead which seem to be still actively feeding. Personally in my many years on the river i can count the number of bleeders I have had on one hand.
Yes and I have had very few bleeders as well after 30 years of fishing bait on the Vedder and other river systems. Also I have seen only the odd dead steelhead over that period of time. As I have posted before when I participated in the 2 year radio telemetry steelhead study on the Chilliwack Vedder River a very high percentage of fish that were tagged, spawned, kelted and left the system successfully except of course the hatchery fish that were again caught and retained.

In my mind the survival of not only our steelhead but all our salmon species have been for many years and unfortunately are still being threatened by a lot of other factors far more serious than a bait ban would accomplish, many of us know what they are.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: chris gadsden on January 10, 2010, 06:18:50 PM
I think the regulation says that once you killed a steelhead, you have to stop fishing.
Is it true?
If you are talking about the Chillwack Vedder yes you have to stop fishing that system.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: the carp on January 11, 2010, 01:10:55 AM
If the vedder ran clear as it used to do i would not fish as much bait as i do now, in the clay water a little smellavision is required at least in my book, otherwise cambell river special and pink worms are my choice.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: buck on January 11, 2010, 07:25:38 PM
 Prior to the hatchery coming on line there was a bait ban for steelhead on the Chilliwack River . After the hatchery started to produce hatchery fish the bait ban was lifted. The reason for lifting the ban was to remove as many hatchery fish as possible from the system. F&W did not want hatchery fish to spawn with wild fish.
Chris, after collecting brood stock for 28 years ( 1900 + fish )  we have lost only a small number , less than ten that I would attribute to hooking mortality. We have lost a few fish after holding them for 2 or 3 months but those deaths would be caused by stress / disease problems.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: chris gadsden on January 13, 2010, 07:21:27 PM
Prior to the hatchery coming on line there was a bait ban for steelhead on the Chilliwack River . After the hatchery started to produce hatchery fish the bait ban was lifted. The reason for lifting the ban was to remove as many hatchery fish as possible from the system. F&W did not want hatchery fish to spawn with wild fish.
Chris, after collecting brood stock for 28 years ( 1900 + fish )  we have lost only a small number , less than ten that I would attribute to hooking mortality. We have lost a few fish after holding them for 2 or 3 months but those deaths would be caused by stress / disease problems.
Thanks for the update Buck. I would assume the majority of the 1900 brood stock steelhead would have been taken with bait. If so one could say the use of bait does not cause an alarming mortality rate.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: fishstick on January 14, 2010, 10:46:15 PM
I hear a lot of mention of adult steelhead/salmon and the effects of bait on them and like many who have responded I cant think of many adult bleeders, but I have witnessessed many many cutthroat both adults and rearing fish, as well as steelhead smolts galore throat hooked and bleeding by bait, not to mention jacks and lets not forget bull trout/dollies, it most certainly does have an impact. While some people are experienced and can hook a fish effectively with bait I wager there are many more ignorant fisherman who don't and judging by the amount of people I see fishing who have absolutely no idea what damage they are doing how can you say that it wouldn't be an improvement, as far as rivers going downhill when they have bait bans in place do you honestly think that the reason for this can somehow be related to a bait ban?? I agree that the vedder isn't a great candidate but there are a lot of other rivers that would benefit, why not support an idea that is proactive and does attempt to actually reduce mortality/improve fish stocks?
just my 2 cents
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: mykisscrazy on January 15, 2010, 12:35:28 PM
Well said Fishstick!
Personally I would like to see a bait ban on all Streams in BC.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: jetboatjim on January 15, 2010, 05:27:41 PM
why not support an idea that is proactive and does attempt to actually reduce mortality/improve fish stocks?
just my 2 cents


So this type of thinking worked on the squamish/squamish system ? yep bait ban there and numbers continue to fall....same on the island.

you have a mortality if you use a hook.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: kingpin on January 15, 2010, 05:40:29 PM
the only way your hooking and killing smolts is by using  a smaller hook than you need.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: fishstick on January 16, 2010, 12:29:36 PM
the bait ban has helped the bull trout and dolly populations on the squamish, as far as the whole system goes do you really think the bait ban caused any of the declines? I personally have witnessed many many mortally damaged smolt/cutties caught on larger hooks, my point isn't to say that bait bans are some sort of miracle tool, but if nobody has done literally anything else to help (as in the squamish system) has the bait ban specifically actually hurt fish stocks,or is it logging, development, overpopulation, lack of spawning habitat, siltation and the many other water quality issues, overfishing, poor ocean survival rates, decreased insect life in the rivers, increased river water temps, the real point is that there is a lot more that could be done, but won't bait or no bait, so again I say it has to be a proactive step but it certainly wont work in isolation, and nor should it be expected to, it has got to be better than nothing
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: kingpin on January 16, 2010, 06:46:35 PM
Banning bait is like registering firearms, it makes you look like your doing something but in reality you are not addressing the real problems.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: chris gadsden on January 16, 2010, 07:30:48 PM
Banning bait is like registering firearms, it makes you look like your doing something but in reality you are not addressing the real problems.
Yep.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: mykisscrazy on January 17, 2010, 01:01:31 PM
I have to disagree with you. Anything to help reduce mortality is doing something. As well it sure wouldn't cost the $$ as the gun registry.

There is a really good article in this winter's issue of Flyfishing and Tying Journal. You can go read it in your local grocery store. Deals not only with Bait Bans but also Catch and Release.

I'll lay bets within 10 years we will have a complete bait ban on our streams in BC. If we don't it will because of certain lobby groups who for some reason just don't get it.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: younggun on January 17, 2010, 07:12:58 PM
we could just make the vedder a C&R river altogether for steelhead!  ::)  (but then where would all the meatfishermen go???)  8)
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: kingpin on January 17, 2010, 08:08:51 PM
I have to disagree with you. Anything to help reduce mortality is doing something. As well it sure wouldn't cost the $$ as the gun registry.

There is a really good article in this winter's issue of Flyfishing and Tying Journal. You can go read it in your local grocery store. Deals not only with Bait Bans but also Catch and Release.

I'll lay bets within 10 years we will have a complete bait ban on our streams in BC. If we don't it will because of certain lobby groups who for some reason just don't get it.


And if we do it will be because of certain lobby groups. Honestly, the only ones arguing this are those who are solely fly fisherman. you have heard facts from guys like chris and buck who have years of experience with broodstocking fish and the mortality rate of these bait caught fish is minimal. In my years of steelheading ive had a handful of deep hooked fish and only 1 bleeder. Honestly its a bigger problem with guys over playing steelhead or not using sufficient rod
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: younggun on January 17, 2010, 09:40:18 PM
i 2nd KP's opinion
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: mykisscrazy on January 18, 2010, 11:58:06 AM
And if we do it will be because of certain lobby groups. Honestly, the only ones arguing this are those who are solely fly fisherman. you have heard facts from guys like chris and buck who have years of experience with broodstocking fish and the mortality rate of these bait caught fish is minimal. In my years of steelheading ive had a handful of deep hooked fish and only 1 bleeder. Honestly its a bigger problem with guys over playing steelhead or not using sufficient rod


I am not solely a flyfisherman, just someone who does not use bait.
Chris and Buck as you said have years of experience - They are not the average fishermen.
In this day of age, with the low returns of most of our Pacific Salmonids,(for a lot of reasons that we do not need to go into here) a handful of deep hooked fish and bleeders could be too many.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: wizard on January 18, 2010, 03:36:17 PM
my two cents...well I've started to fish for steelhead on the chilliwack this year for the first time and from what I see this river has problems like any other river in the lower mainland.  I may not be a veteran of this river but how is the enforcement by C.O.'s?  To me a system like the chilliwack/ vedder should have full time or near fulltime enforcement officers, especially during high usage times.  I have found ALOT of rigs on shore with BARBED hooks.  Nearly half the rigs I've found have barbs.  That is a big problem. Maybe people would think twice about fishing illegally if they thought they would be checked by fisheries officers.  that alone would make a huge difference.  Barbed hooks is something I think is causing alot more problems then people think.  Even if a fish is hooked deep with a barbless hook and some care, they will still be fine...
I know this topic was about baits and catch and release, but the thing IMO that would make the biggest impact would be regular enforcement...not just on the vedder but all rivers.
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: jetboatjim on January 18, 2010, 04:52:26 PM

I am not solely a flyfisherman, just someone who does not use bait.
Chris and Buck as you said have years of experience - They are not the average fishermen.
In this day of age, with the low returns of most of our Pacific Salmonids,(for a lot of reasons that we do not need to go into here) a handful of deep hooked fish and bleeders could be too many.

I flyfish as much as I gearfish, I have more than enough steelhead/salmon to my name and have had equal bleeders on bait and flies.
the only way to reduce mortality is close the river.

kinda funny every year a few "concerned" people voice thier opinions on conservation , yet they dont get involved or continue to fish on systems with less the 100 fish....I dunno ? whats worse?
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: Dave on January 18, 2010, 06:33:52 PM
Jetboatjim, although I am not as passionate on a bait ban as Mykisscrazy (hey, I used prawns today on the Vedder!) I  would have no problem with that legislation. 
Scientific  literature is very clear on this sissue:  the smaller the fish, the greater the chance of hooking mortalities when using bait.   So, if we value the juvenile trout, salmon and charr in our river systems, why not endorse a bait ban on systems with known stocks of concern?

Also, perhaps you were not specifically calling out Mykisscrazy with your quote " kinda funny every year a few "concerned" people voice thier opinions on conservation , yet they dont get involved or continue to fish on systems with less the 100 fish....I dunno ? whats worse? "    I hope not as he is as involved as any (ask his wife and kids) and a whole lot more than most. 
 
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: jetboatjim on January 18, 2010, 07:35:45 PM
perhaps if he was involved as much as you say, he would relise the bait issue is not a top concerne (as stated by many moe bio's ....this has been stated at meetings.
the last time this was brought up in a club meeting some older fellows said this argument has neen going on for 40+ years, just a different river and different flag waver every time it comes up.

#2 Bieng involved you would understand the out migrating smolts are in very good numbers,its the ocean survival that seems to be the biggest factor right now.

Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: fishstick on January 18, 2010, 10:34:25 PM
I fish with many types of gear, including but not limited to bait or flies, and I also spend every spare minute I have, including time that I could be fishing, at my local hatchery, I am also involved in a broodstock program. I am "concerned" and I am not part of any lobby group that I am aware of, I as many others are aware that smolt numbers are high and that there are other issues that are much more important, however the only point I was trying to make is that when you have little choice power or say about all the big problems, then why reject smaller measures such as bait bans out of hand, why is it that this negative king of the vedder know it all attitude comes out whenever people even try to discuss this or any other measure, you know most people I talk to started fishing or learned how to fish (myself included) with a worm and a bobber, and that is an important step in creating passion and interest in fishing and more importantly interest in the fish and it appears that the message is not getting through
THIS ISSUE IS ABOUT FISH, NOT YOUR PREFFERED WAY OF FISHING, I am not attacking bait fisherman so don't take it personally, at least from me, why not support initiatives that are proactive eg. bait bans, circle hooks, c+r , whatever , this is all we have to work with, the fish are more important than the fishing
Title: Re: c&r and bait bans
Post by: Geff_t on January 18, 2010, 10:52:25 PM
Here is my 2 cents

  I think the people that are putting this much energy into their agenda with this bait ban should go and have a walk on any river that is heavily fished and see what exactly will be killing these fish. I can guarantee it is not bait but the fishing method being used by some of these fishermen(if you want to call them that) . I think you should put more energy into trying to do something about that.  These are some of the same people deploying this method for steelhead as they do for salmon.