Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: bluesteele on December 01, 2009, 07:18:54 PM
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This is something that has been on my mind lately and bothers me. First of all I don't believe a glove is necessary at all
in landing a steelhead. A properly played fished does not require a big wool mitt pulling off it's protective slime. Everytime I see
a picture of that it makes me shake my head.
Please be aware that by tailing a fish with a glove you are removing slime from it resulting in possible infection of the fish. I witnessed
this on the T this past week felt like hurtling rocks at the moron. NO GLOVES...people they are not necessary. As far as I am concerned
they should banned. As for those saying they dont want to drop the fish on the rocks. PUT WADERS ON and get into some knee deep water.
Before you fish a hole or run be aware of the shoreline and where the best spot is to land a fish if you catch one. A LITTLE FORWARD THINKING
goes a long ways folks.
The weather is getting colder and if you wear gloves and are tailing a fish shove your gloves into your waders or toss em on shore. Respect
the steelhead and give it its best chance for survival and that means NO GLOVES. otherwise look out for rocks flying your way. >:(
Bluesteele
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Couldn't agree more.
Trouble is there is a lot of misinformation out there re gloves.
They are actually recommended by the fisheries managers in some places such as Alberta and Ontario. It also doesn't help when you see idiots on TV like Italo Labrigan wearing them. Next thing we know we're going to have someone show up on the Thompson with a boga grip :-X
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It also doesn't help when you see idiots on TV like Italo Labrigan wearing them.
Bang on !
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Care of a fish is all a matter of degree. Barbed or barbless hooks. Rubber nets or knotted nylon nets. Single or treble hooks. Gloves or no gloves. Heavy or light line and tackle.
I use single barbless hooks, a rubber landing net, heavy line and tackle so I won't over tire the fish, and a single glove. Although it does remove some slime, it allows me to not grip the caudal peduncle as tightly, thus lessening the "hurt" applied.
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On one side the game of catch &release has a lot fun on the other side steelhead suffers ...
would someone invent something that can balance this conflict? ::)
Such as edible lure, hookless bait, painfulless hook...which make both fisherman and fishes feel better ;)
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Although it does remove some slime, it allows me to not grip the caudal peduncle as tightly, thus lessening the "hurt" applied.
How so?
First of all fish do not feel pain. They do not have the part of the brain required for pain.
By damaging the outer covering of slime you are exposing scales, etc to fungus and other diseases.
Steelhead don't always die either, they remain in freshwater longer than salmon and need to make it out to the ocean, so they need as much help as they can get!
IMO I would say the scales and protective slime of the fish is the highest priority besides them breathing.
Everything you listed will do less damage to a fish than removing the very thing that is keeping it healthy and alive.
How hard is it to remove your glove?
Really, I wish people would give their heads a shake and think logically for once.....
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just give steelhead the respect they deserve and get your damn hands wet :P :P I have been known to grab some fish from time to time while wearing my wool finger tip less gloves however they were totally wet (soaked) before i ever touched the fish (which i imagine helps slightly)
I dont think i have grabbed any fish in many years with gloves on now, even if im going to kill it anyway ;D
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How so?
First of all fish do not feel pain. They do not have the part of the brain required for pain.
It has nothing to do with pain. The "hurt" I was refering to is the tissue/muscle damaged caused by gripping the caudal peduncle too hard. I use one wet glove with little rubber nubbies. I get a good grip on the fish and can handle it safely. Yes, the fish loses some slime at the base of its tail and is further exposed to disease and fungus, but I do my best not to any tissue damage. During spawning, tissue does not heal as all of the fish's energy is going into reproduction.
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Has anyone seen the Rapala Filet Glove. Its a synthetic material woven in a similar manner to chain-mail. It says on its packaging that it is designed to be used as a tailing glove. I have used it the odd time on chum, and hatchery (bonked) coho. Once wet it removes little to no slime from the fish, but still ensures a locked in grip on the fish. I've never needed a second tailing attempt with the glove on. However I would never risk it's use on a fish I didn't plan on bonking.
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Has anyone seen the Rapala Filet Glove. Its a synthetic material woven in a similar manner to chain-mail. It says on its packaging that it is designed to be used as a tailing glove. I have used it the odd time on chum, and hatchery (bonked) coho. Once wet it removes little to no slime from the fish, but still ensures a locked in grip on the fish. I've never needed a second tailing attempt with the glove on. However I would never risk it's use on a fish I didn't plan on bonking.
These are WICKED gloves for sure... never tried using them for tailing fish though.
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I'll let you guys decide whether gloves actually harm fish or not ::)
Friend does broodstocking, here is a fish that had a tailing glove used on it about 10 days earlier :
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i291/s_dykstra/Fishing/PB251205.jpg)
Let me remind you, this is in a controlled environment with antiobiotics.
I dunno but I would say that this causes WAY MORE harm that it does good.
I don't care how carefully you handle the fish before, the glove the glove will kill it!
Any argument you can make can't go against this, I would rather have tissue and muscle damage instead of having my skin peel off and rot.
PS Friend DOES NOT ever under any circumstances use a tailing glove. This was done by someone else..... :'(
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What kind of glove was used ??? Material wise.
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Yes, slime removal is bad. Squeezing fish too hard is bad.
If that fish in the photo has spent its entire life in a hatchery, then comparing it to river caught fish is an invalid argument.
Research has shown that "physical forms of stress, such as handling, have been shown to INCREASE epidermal mucificaion in salmonid fish." The continuous secretion of mucus not only acts as a physical barrier to prevent colonization of fungus, but it acts as a hydraulic boundary layer helping the fish to swim faster. As male salmonids become sexually mature, there is a decrease in epidermal mucification. The decreased mucification increases susceptibility to fungal infection, hence the reason you see "mold" on spawned out fish. Interestingly enough, this demucification does not occur with female fish.
Research has also shown that spawning salmon and steelhead do heal as they ascend into the rivers to spawn due to increased levels of plasma cortisol.
Source: http://pisces.bpa.gov/release/documents/documentviewer.aspx?pub=A02836-1.pdf
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The fish in that photo was a wild doe that was captured from a river. The fungus seen in the picture had formed within 10 days of capture.
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"The caudal and anal fins of sexually mature female fish
are more frequently infected than the male fish (Richards and Pickering, 1978) and it is
precisely these areas that are used for redd-digging in the gravels of spawning streams.
Abrasion to this area of the body is unavoidable. Hatai and Hoshai (Chap. 4, this volume)
show that destruction of the epidermis overlying the adipose fin is an important
predisposing factor for saprolegniasis."
I wonder how much, if any, redd-digging she had done.
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Haven't people known that gloves and fish don't mix for 15 plus years now???
It's pretty easy to take them off when you start playing a fish....and you don't have to squeeze the life out of a fish to tail it properly, contrary to what is being argued.
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Gloves, especially wool gloves, should never be used on fish you wish to release, for all the reasons already given. Until a few years ago, the steelhead captured by a certain individual during the Chilliwack broodstock capture program had a higher (much higher) mortality rate compared to other anglers. On investigation it was revealed he used wool gloves to handle the fish. Not anymore. Gloves were forbidden during the handling of Cultus sockeye and it's broodstock program.
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"The caudal and anal fins of sexually mature female fish
are more frequently infected than the male fish (Richards and Pickering, 1978) and it is
precisely these areas that are used for redd-digging in the gravels of spawning streams.
Abrasion to this area of the body is unavoidable. Hatai and Hoshai (Chap. 4, this volume)
show that destruction of the epidermis overlying the adipose fin is an important
predisposing factor for saprolegniasis."
I wonder how much, if any, redd-digging she had done.
None. Its a summer run steelhead.
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Yea labmik that was a summer steely.
No where close to REDD digging and was caught WILD out of a river by brood stockers.
Not sure what glove was used, don't think my friend caught that one (or saw it caught) but I can try asking.
That fish in the photo was WAY better off than a fish that would have been released back into the wild.
Little or no energy was going into swimming in those 10 days and antibiotics were in the water to try and help it out.
In the wild that fish would probably have been dead faster than 10 days which would explain why you guys probably don't catch many fish looking like this.
I still think gloves are horrible to use.. with little or NO benifts and probably cause alot more harm than good.
Hopefully this shows effectivly what they can do and may change some of your opinions on gloves, who knows maybe you will stop using them one day.
So far every argument here for USING gloves has been weak. It's unnecessary and causes harm to fish, don't use a glove if you care about the Steelhead or any fish...
PERIOD.
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So what about a latex glove? would that be bad or not an issue as it should not remove much slime. I ask this as I some times use a latex glove over my wind stopper gloves when it's really cold and raining or snowy slush.
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how do you wear a latex glove OVER your windstopper gloves ?? I have the same gloves and i could never fit a latex over them. I have seen guys that wear latex under their gloves but still remove their gloves to tail fish, i mean they remove the wool/fleece gloves not the latex.
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Am interested if latex gloves are OK too. My hands take a right beating at work tying steel / pouring concrete outside all year so usually wear them under work gloves and was thinking about wearing them under my fingerless for fishing.
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Yes, I wear them OVER my gloves as to keep them dry and thus much, much warmer. I have the newest pair with cut off fingers.
I tried them under the glove but they just end up holding allot of COLD water and almost seems points less although they would probably work better under a pair of thicker wool gloves.
I used some gloves from my sister, as it was her idea, and a very good one. I believe they were large or extra large and blue and maybe from pharasave. The fit was decent, not too tight. Took some skill to put on but was fairly easy to do and the benefit of having dry, warm hands made a great day fishing, even if it was raining/snowing and cold. And it is so easy to re-tie when you can actually feel your fingers.
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hmmm :-\ you do know that those gloves are designed to keep you warm even when they are soaking wet. I pull mine off when they get wet and ring them out and back on they go, hands still stay nice and warm. my fingertips do get cold but i just put the flap over them and in about 2 minutes they are toasty once again ;D putting latex over them is kinda pointless because your just creating yet a second layer of windproofing however you are creating a layer of dryness. I dont know i just think its pointless to have $60 gloves and then cover them up, i bet if you tried just the latex you would find them almost just as warm without the gloves because your hands will sweat alot inside them and should keep you warm.
just my thoughts ;)
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I have personally never landed a fish with gloves on and I never would either. I have only fished with gloves on a few times as I find them cumbersome while trying to fly fish (even the fingerless ones,) but every time I've worn them I've simply removed them with my teeth as soon as I hooked fish.
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Randolph20: Trying to disprove photo "evidence" on a technicality (the difference from a fungicide to antibiotic) is pathetic. You look for an argument everywhere you post and I for one am tired of it. The term "educated" is used on this forum in reference to fishing experience and knowledge, not Biology, Chemistry, or Physics knowledge. I would strongly suggest that you think long and hard before you hit the reply button next time.
EveryDay: It's obvious you are passionate about fish welfare. However, I also suggest that you take a few minutes after typing out a reply before you hit the post button. You'd be surprised how often you decide it's best not to post. Also though you pride yourself on claiming you know the regs you posted you are only allowed to use ONE hook in BC!
earlier today which is wrong. Treble hooks as well as barbs are allowed on some lakes throughout the province. It is only in rivers, sloughs, creeks, etc. that the blanket "one single barbless hook" regulation applies.
Everyone else: As I mentioned to randolph20 I'm tired of his post, he is always looking for an argument based on technicalities. In the words of fisherforever: DON'T FEED THE TROLL!
I am leaving the topic up because it does contain important information for both new and experienced anglers. Keep it on topic.
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Sorry Dion I worded it wrong.
I meant ONE hook as in one hook tied to the line (whether it be barbed, treble).
Randolph was referring to a 2 hook setup (2 treble hooks, etc on a flatfish).
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Sorry Dion I worded it wrong.
I meant ONE hook as in one hook tied to the line (whether it be barbed, treble).
Randolph was referring to a 2 hook setup (2 treble hooks, etc on a flatfish).
All the more reason to take that minute or two to re-read your reply before you hit the post button.
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I know it's off topic, but I've always been bothered by the wording vs meaning of "single barbless hook." To me, that means a single hook without barbs. Thah hook could have multiple points, but you can have only one hook. If the intent of the meaning is to restrict the lure to one hook with a single point, shouldn't the wording be "barbless single hook?"
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I know it's off topic, but I've always been bothered by the wording vs meaning of "single barbless hook." To me, that means a single hook without barbs. Thah hook could have multiple points, but you can have only one hook. If the intent of the meaning is to restrict the lure to one hook with a single point, shouldn't the wording be "barbless single hook?"
For BC's tidal and freshwater recreational fisheries, these terms are defined in the regulation synopsis. Single is defined as a hook with a single point. Barbless is defined as a hook without a barb.
One of these four different types of hook restrictions can be found in each fishery:
- No hook restriction - The angler can use a single or a treble hook, which can either be barbed or barbless.
- Single hook restriction - The angler can use a hook with a single point, which can either be barbed or barbless.
- Barbless hook restriction - The angler can only use a hook that does not have a barb, which can either be a single or a treble hook.
- Single barbless hook restriction - The angler can only use a hook that has a single point, which needs to be barbless.
I see what you are saying, the term single barbless hook implies a different setup if one uses proper English to interpret it.
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Until reading this thread I never would have known that using a glove could cause so much damage to a fish...pictures from Everyday say a 1000 words.
Today on Sportfishing on the Fly they were catching Steelhead, Coho and Sockeye on the Skeena landing and releasing them using a tailing glove...they made comments about how good they are.
Question to Dion and others who have or do work in Tackle shops...are there gloves which are constructed to tail a fish without causing harm? If so I'm guessing these have nothing to do with keeping your hands warm but are used only for tailing.
Also if you pick up the latest copy of Salmon, Steelhead and Trout you can see pictures of Steelhead being tailed with what looks like wool gloves. It's easy to see how there could be confusion on this subject if your only source of information is TV and Magazines.
BTW...if there is no such thing as a tailing glove which does not hurt the fish why do the tackle shops sell them?
Bluenoser
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BTW...if there is no such thing as a tailing glove which does not hurt the fish why do the tackle shops sell them?
Because people buy them.
It's the same reason why tackle shops sell 10 foot leaders on boards and bouncing betties. Not ethical (they know that) but what the hell it makes money.
I'll admit, I have used gloves before in my 1st/2nd year. It was alot easier to hang onto a fish that way.
On a side note, the Rapala filleting glove (sold in WalMart, etc) claims to be safe for tailing fish.
So far it is the only glove I have ever seen that has "fish safe" written on the package.
I used it once a few years back and no slime came off the fish onto the glove, so it could possibly be safe, but I would still prefer to use bare hands.
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I used it once a few years back and no slime came off the fish onto the glove, so it could possibly be safe, but I would still prefer to use bare hands.
Yes, go bare at all times. ;D
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On a side note, the Rapala filleting glove (sold in WalMart, etc) claims to be safe for tailing fish.
So far it is the only glove I have ever seen that has "fish safe" written on the package.
I used it once a few years back and no slime came off the fish onto the glove, so it could possibly be safe, but I would still prefer to use bare hands.
It's sold other places too. And that was the glove I mentioned earlier in the thread. So that should kind of answer your question Bluenoser. Nothing else I know of is advertised as "fish tailing safe."
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I would think that neo gloves would be ok.
Their texture is much like your skin and they are not porous like knit gloves.
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Maybe some neoprene gloves (if they were void of gripping nubs) would not cause any (or at least minimal) damage to the fish.
However, unless you're landing and releasing a fish every few minutes what's the problem with going barehanded when releasing one?
Neoprene gloves are thick enough that you wouldn't actually know the strength of your grip and thereby not know if you're removing the PROTECTIVE slime.
(walk on fresh crushed gravel in your shoes then do it bare footed you'll feel the difference in pressure.)
Even a small line of slime removed by a fingernail opens the fish up to infection.
(just go ask someone who keeps aquarium fish, There's got to be someone on here that does)
Plus you get to hug yourself (hands in armpits) for a JOB WELL DONE.
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Thanks for info Everyday and Dion
I've never used a tailing glove and guess I never will now. Those damn salmon and steelhead seem almost invincible at times when you see what they endure including gaping wounds from seals.....then to find that tailing them with a glove can kill them.
Too bad the magazines and TV shows didn't mention this.
Think I'll write into Salmon, Trout and Steehead.
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Anybody watch the program called "Monster fish"? One episode they were fishing for huge trout in Mongolia and collecting scientific data. They used gloves even though the premise of the program is that of protectection for the species.
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While looking at the Suskeena lodge video, I noticed that the fisherman's are using a netting type of glove to handle the fish. Any comments on this type of product??? I have a rough time holding the fish, can these type of net glove?? be used??
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Just watching Sport Fishing On The Fly on TV and they were using a glove on a steelhead. ::)
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Next fish, sockeye, most likely flossed and "glove" on again. :o ??? Changing channels.
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Next fish, sockeye, most likely flossed and "glove" on again. :o ??? Changing channels.
They definitely like to use the glove on their show, not just on the river but also on the lakes with larger fish. Many of those times when Don is fishing he is with Brian Chan. Brian doesn't seem to think there's a problem with it. You'd think he'd be in the know??
On another note....the last couple of weeks SPOTF has been showing all the Skeena shows and I know that I've definitely seen at least one of the released fish with a hook not in the mouth but it was tough to tell on the others...they remove the hook so fast. You'd have to think all the sockeye were flossed. especially since the water visibility was so poor and how shallow they were fishing.....yet, all the fish that were caught today except one pink that Don caught were hooked by Dale on the same pattern which was the only one they had!
Soooo.....do you think most of these hooked fish (coho. pinks, steelhead, chum) that they hooked are flossed using the method of using the 3-4 splitshots 5 feet up the leader? I'd sure like to think that they're actually biting.
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For those that have mentioned seeing a net like glove most likely the Michigan Mitt see it here
http://www.miriverworks.com/mit.htm
Still dont agree with it. Bare for me ;D
Bluesteele
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On another note....the last couple of weeks SPOTF has been showing all the Skeena shows and I know that I've definitely seen at least one of the released fish with a hook not in the mouth but it was tough to tell on the others...they remove the hook so fast.
Thats why they try to get the hook out so fast and most likely why they use the glove as it helps accomplish that. :o
I look at it as I never have to land a fish that badly that I have to use a glove. If a fish gets off it is no big deal.
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(just go ask someone who keeps aquarium fish, There's got to be someone on here that does)
I used to keep aquarium fish and was always told that even if the fish does not get an infection, removal of the protective slimecoat results in undue stress to the fish.
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I'm with Chris on this one I thought it was common knowledge that you weren't supposed to use a glove when handling a fish, isn't that tough to tail a fish with your bare hand and if the fish does fall off what's the big deal why even take a chance on damaging one with a glove it's not worth it, you can't land em all. I haven't used a glove in 15 years and I can't think of one fish lost because I was bare handed.
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I have never used a glove to tail a fish and I have been fishing for 45 years. I remember when I was 5 or 6 years old my father telling me to always wet your hands before touching a fish. The tailing glove is not required in my books. It is just another piece of useless kit the fishing manufactures have marketed as a must have for fishermen. Maybe the people who use gloves are afraid to touch fish. I'm sure the boa grip will be showing up on your rivers soon if they already haven't. Thats another story for another day, but imaging hanging by your lower jaw to have your picture taken. I'm sure theres alot of dislocated jaws swimming around out there.
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I'll let you guys decide whether gloves actually harm fish or not ::)
Friend does broodstocking, here is a fish that had a tailing glove used on it about 10 days earlier :
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i291/s_dykstra/Fishing/PB251205.jpg)
Let me remind you, this is in a controlled environment with antiobiotics.
I dunno but I would say that this causes WAY MORE harm that it does good.
I don't care how carefully you handle the fish before, the glove the glove will kill it!
Any argument you can make can't go against this, I would rather have tissue and muscle damage instead of having my skin peel off and rot.
PS Friend DOES NOT ever under any circumstances use a tailing glove. This was done by someone else..... :'(
LOL just started reading this thread and if that pic is the one I think it is then I tubed that fish (tubed not caught) and no gloves were used and the fish never left water. Just scooped it into the tube in 10'' of water. We were ASKED by the boys at the hatchery if we used a glove on the fish but no gloves were used. Why would we need to the fish was only 4lbs. So I must ask.....where you boys getting your info from?
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After reading some of the recent comments in the fish porn I started wondering, are all gloves bad? I mean just last week on tv I watched a well known BC fisherman fishing for coho and steelhead on the Skeena, he would NOT land a fish unless he had his tailing glove on.
I can understand how a wool glove would remove alot of slime but are the neoprene gloves bad? Would a fish lose any slime if it is handled without a glove? And lets face it not everyone is going to keep a fish in the water when taking a photo, wouldn't the chances of dropping a fish be lessened by using a glove?
When a fish wraps itself in the line and removes scales does it lose slim as well?, and if so wouldn't this kill the fish almost instantly?
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no gloves were used and the fish never left water
That doesn't mean it wasn't tailed and released with a glove prior to your catch and tube.
Would a fish lose any slime if it is handled without a glove? And lets face it not everyone is going to keep a fish in the water when taking a photo, wouldn't the chances of dropping a fish be lessened by using a glove?
When a fish wraps itself in the line and removes scales does it lose slim as well?, and if so wouldn't this kill the fish almost instantly?
Yes, it certainly could lose slime when tailed without a glove but the point is to minimize these losses and any potential damage to the fish if it is to be released.
The protective slime will come back but in severe cases it might not come back fast enough (if too large an area has been exposed) to prevent infection.
REMEMBER: you might not be the first,or second for that matter, to catch any particular fish; particularily when there are catch and release rules for wild stock.
Fish lose slime and scales all the time and then heal (ever caught a fish with a scar?) but if you keep picking at a scab; sooner or later it's going to get infected if not allowed to heal.
HANDLE YOUR FISH WITH CARE.
We can't eliminate it entirely but we certainly can reduce these extra stresses we put on the fish by doing it without gloves.
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BUMP
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dd
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A glove is an unnecessary tool in my tackle box! It is my opinion, and experience, that when a fish is played out properly it can be landed for a fairly nice n easy tailing. A quick photo or rock shampoo and away the fish goes! It is really quite simple and can never understand why a glove is needed, given all the damage it does! I have seen it first hand.
hotrod
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Never ,never NEVER use a glove on any fish you plan to release. What is so hard to understand here?
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Just aches my heart to see youtube videos or tv shows from northern BC or Alaska and everyone is using a tailing glove or wearing wool gloves to keep their hands warm.
WHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!???
(http://www.berro.com/test_pre_schoolers/banging%20the%20wall%20cartoon%20berro%20website.gif)
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How so?
First of all fish do not feel pain. They do not have the part of the brain required for pain.
By damaging the outer covering of slime you are exposing scales, etc to fungus and other diseases.
Steelhead don't always die either, they remain in freshwater longer than salmon and need to make it out to the ocean, so they need as much help as they can get!
IMO I would say the scales and protective slime of the fish is the highest priority besides them breathing.
Everything you listed will do less damage to a fish than removing the very thing that is keeping it healthy and alive.
How hard is it to remove your glove?
Really, I wish people would give their heads a shake and think logically for once.....
how do you know fish don't feel pain, are you a fish???? you have nothing to back that up, imho all living things feel pain, animals like your pets, dogs, cats etc. how is a fish different? Just because we don't know what a fish in pain looks like dosn't mean its not hurting, think about it
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983045.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983045.stm)
Lots of info out there regarding studies and such. Some going one way others going the opposite.
Feeling pain or not feeling pain it doesn't matter. Slime loss can cause infection and that infection can cause death.
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how do you know fish don't feel pain, are you a fish???? you have nothing to back that up, imho all living things feel pain, animals like your pets, dogs, cats etc. how is a fish different? Just because we don't know what a fish in pain looks like dosn't mean its not hurting, think about it
Fish's brains are not capable of feeling "pain." There have been studies published on this (that I'v read through school - I can try and find them again in you really need it).
Your "opinion" in that case doesn't matter. If you can come up with scientific backing for your statement, then feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
There have been multiple studies where fish have shown a reaction to something (such as bee venom), but that is most likely due to handling, etc (if it wasn't, why would fish eat bee's, crayfish, spiders, etc). They are more than capable of seeing, so anything you do to them will freak them out and get a reaction.
Try simply ripping a fish's gills out one day (sound brutal, I know). You would think if they felt pain, they would freak out if someone just ripped their lungs out. They don't, they just lie there and seem to calm down as soon as you take your hands off them.
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Fish's brains are not capable of feeling "pain."
There have been multiple studies where fish have shown a reaction to something, but that is most likely due to handling, etc.
They are more than capable of seeing, so anything you do to them will freak them out.
Actually ED the spinal column is what senses pain and then that is sent to your brain where it's deciphered that its pain. Once deciphered then the body reacts to it.
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Actually ED the spinal column is what senses pain and then that is sent to your brain where it's deciphered that its pain. Once deciphered then the body reacts to it.
Exactly, your brain interprets it. Same difference. Fish do not have the brain capabilities of higher organisms.
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Exactly, your brain interprets it. Same difference. Fish do not have the brain capabilities of higher organisms.
For example, when you touch something hot, you pull your hand away. But this does not happen because your brain feels pain - instead, it happens because of a reflex. The reaction to pull your hand away happens automatically thanks to nerve centres in your spine. Your brain is not involved. The heat activates the heat receptors in your hand, which send electrical signals to your spine. All by themselves, these nerve centres in your spinal cord activate the muscles that pull your hand away. This all happens without your brain being involved.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2006/09/15/1733327.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2006/09/15/1733327.htm)
:P
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That explains a reflex, the very next paragraph after the one you pasted talks about from there the signal goes to the brain to make pain.
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That explains a reflex, the very next paragraph after the one you pasted talks about from there the signal goes to the brain to make pain.
...but in part two he goes on to explain a study of rainbow trout that is supposed to show that trout can feel pain
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Jeez guys, get over it. Treat all fish you catch with the proper respect they deserve. If you choose to kill a fish considered legal by regulation, do so quickly and humanely ... if a fish is to be released do it quickly and properly and with the least possible impact on it's survival, which in most cases means no gloves, no gravel rash, no gill exposure to anything but water... basically common sense.
If you think angled fish respond to pain perhaps it's time to consider your conscious and maybe, stop fishing ... many would thank you, mostly other anglers.
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Jeez guys, get over it. Treat all fish you catch with the proper respect they deserve. If you choose to kill a fish considered legal by regulation, do so quickly and humanely ... if a fish is to be released do it quickly and properly and with the least possible impact on it's survival, which in most cases means no gloves, no gravel rash, no gill exposure to anything but water... basically common sense.
If you think angled fish respond to pain perhaps it's time to consider your conscious and maybe, stop fishing ... many would thank you, mostly other anglers.
Dave honestly this is a discussion forum and we are discussing this topic. If you don't have anything to contribute why post? We weren't talking about whether or not to fish or not due to them feeling pain but if they could feel pain period. The problem with the common sense idea is well most people have none ::)
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Jeez guys, get over it. Treat all fish you catch with the proper respect they deserve. If you choose to kill a fish considered legal by regulation, do so quickly and humanely ... if a fish is to be released do it quickly and properly and with the least possible impact on it's survival, which in most cases means no gloves, no gravel rash, no gill exposure to anything but water... basically common sense.
If you think angled fish respond to pain perhaps it's time to consider your conscious and maybe, stop fishing ... many would thank you, mostly other anglers.
Hey, I didn't say it... it was those UK scientist that did. You can turn a blind eye to any scientist that tries to show you otherwise, Dave, but it does not make it true just because you would rather not believe it. I certainly feel better about hooking a wild steelhead I have to release, knowing it cannot feel pain, but that does not change the fact that it may indeed respond to pain, which might help explain why it runs and jumps so vigourously after being hooked (far more than a "reflex" response would explain). Does that mean I am going to stop trying to hook them? Not likely. I am going to need a more definitive and irrefutable study, peer reviewed and replicated 100 times, before I believe it.
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Sandman, you're but the messenger of this study and I know that. Just saying that all anglers must make and live within their own moral code of fishing. I don't know if fish feel pain but if they do I have caused much, to many fish. I, like you, think they don't and that works for me.
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Jeez guys, get over it. Treat all fish you catch with the proper respect they deserve. If you choose to kill a fish considered legal by regulation, do so quickly and humanely ... if a fish is to be released do it quickly and properly and with the least possible impact on it's survival, which in most cases means no gloves, no gravel rash, no gill exposure to anything but water... basically common sense.
If you think angled fish respond to pain perhaps it's time to consider your conscious and maybe, stop fishing ... many would thank you, mostly other anglers.
Just having a discussion, if you don't like it don't partake.
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I certainly feel better about hooking a wild steelhead I have to release, knowing it cannot feel pain, but that does not change the fact that it may indeed respond to pain, which might help explain why it runs and jumps so vigourously after being hooked (far more than a "reflex" response would explain).
If you're going about your daily business and someone leaps out from an alley and grabs you and tried to drag you into it, you'd probably thrash and kick and run as much as you could too. Wouldn't matter if the mugger was hurting you or not.
It's called fight or flight and it has nothing to do with pain as far as I know.
Note - I'm not definitely saying fish do or do not feel pain, though I lean towards the fact that they do not... at least not in the sense that you or I do.
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Pain -> maybe or maybe not.
Suffering -> most likely.
So do your best to minimize (aka no gloves) and have fun :)
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Jeez guys, get over it. Treat all fish you catch with the proper respect they deserve. If you choose to kill a fish considered legal by regulation, do so quickly and humanely ... if a fish is to be released do it quickly and properly and with the least possible impact on it's survival, which in most cases means no gloves, no gravel rash, no gill exposure to anything but water... basically common sense.
If you think angled fish respond to pain perhaps it's time to consider your conscious and maybe, stop fishing ... many would thank you, mostly other anglers.
Damn-- I actually agree with Dave..... must be getting soft as its Christmas ;D
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I'll let you guys decide whether gloves actually harm fish or not ::)
Friend does broodstocking, here is a fish that had a tailing glove used on it about 10 days earlier :
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i291/s_dykstra/Fishing/PB251205.jpg)
Let me remind you, this is in a controlled environment with antiobiotics.
I dunno but I would say that this causes WAY MORE harm that it does good.
I don't care how carefully you handle the fish before, the glove the glove will kill it!
Any argument you can make can't go against this, I would rather have tissue and muscle damage instead of having my skin peel off and rot.
PS Friend DOES NOT ever under any circumstances use a tailing glove. This was done by someone else..... :'(
Wow, that 's quite a shocking photo!
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I've seen fish in the river with fungus on their tails that almost looked like hand prints, and I've had way more knowledgeable people than me tell me that removing the slime on the fish by using a glove causes these fungi, why would anyone take a chance on damaging a fish like that if the possibility is there that the gloves are causing such damage. Give me a break, it isn't that hard to tail a fish with your bare hands lot's of times you can just reach down with your hemostats and twist the hook out with out touching the fish at all. Every fish you land is under different circumstances but the need to use a glove just isn't there. If you have to tail it just wet your bare hand reach down grab it firmly, don't be a pussy and you'll have no trouble hanging on. Like I said if there's the slightest possibility the gloves are damaging the fish you release it's a no brainer just don't use one.