Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: Steel_Mo_Head on October 06, 2009, 01:05:08 PM
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Just wanted to vent on a subject that really irritates the living ****** out of me. I'm going to say for the most part that fishing is very pleasant. You just seem to have those days sometimes, especially when you're asian or perhaps a different skin colour. I know for a fact that there are alot of asian people that do not fish properly and i see it all the time. I, as a westernized banana if you want to call it. Always tell people in general who are trying to snag to stop because it's not an ethical way of fishing and it's against the rules. Or I'll just tell them that if you keep it up you will get a fine and there are alot of undercover dfo's. I know for a fact that i fish properly and am very considerate and ethical on the river. People who aren't irritates me especially if they are oriental because they give people like me a bad rep. Being said that, I also don't appreciate guys who get pissed off at me for hooking to much fish saying that i'm snagging. I know for fact because of my skin coulour. It is the odd pea, because i conversate with a lot of anglers around me. I have been using nothing but roe, shrimp and will reel in gently at the end of my drift. So just because a little asian guy is nailin alot of fish on "BAIT" to some people he's snaggin. Alot of people on the river see what im doin and they are on my side when they see a douche of an angler lippin me off for no reason.
Also wanted to clear something up. Lets say you are fishing with a buddy. You hook a fish ( spring ) and you've already caught yours. When during the period of the time when you hook a fish do you have to hand the rod over??? is before you land the fish? is it right when you hook a fish?( not knowing what it is right away ) ? is it half way through the fight?? I'd like to see what your opinions are i had a guy give me a realy hard time because i handed it to a buddy half way through and it was his first time and he was scared.. and hes a right hander and mine was a lefty..
Thanks in advance guys. Sorry bout the venting.
Tight Lines.
(http://members.shaw.ca/jmai911/red.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/jmai911/point.jpg)
According to your email. Here is the fish i snagged on the back that day. Hopefully you remember what i was wearing. I rest my case. just had to prove to the gentleman. I'm over it.
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nothing wrong with venting bud......its good for the blood pressure. very calming at the end of it as well. i've taken a few newbies myself who have never felt the the fight of a salmon and passed the rod to them to fight and bring in. nothing wrong with that and very unselfish as long as the buddies all have licenses. If a guy watches you fish properly and catch fish and then has the nerve to call you a snagger/flosser then that fellow doesn't know how to fish properly himself. I've never had a bad encounter on any rivers yet while float fishing. just ignore the dude. ::)
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People are quick to judge others. Just because some fisherman are hammering fish after fish does not automatically mean they are snaggers. Stand back and observe for a minute. Are they ripping at the end of every cast ? Are they using long leaders ? Are they using barbed or treble hooks ? As to handing off your rod to your buddy, I don't think there are any specific rules when you must hand off as long as your buddy has a valid licence with the appropriate tags.
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I completely agree with you on this matter.
People back in my country, (I'm asian too :) )
they are all used to grabbing a small net type of thing, a rod or two and just catching fish whenever they see water. when i first started fishing i was really pleasantly surprised to see how much work was being done to ensure pleasant experiences for all anglers, fish, and the environment. i think we just need to do our best to get the word out... it'll take a long long time but i believe that things will change.
for example, this past weekend my dad visisted from asia, he wanted to go fishing and of course he wanted to do things that aren't necessarily allowed here (and i don't blame him as no one should because he's just not aware) i simply took the time to explain to him the basic rules and the ethical way to fish and reason for it. he listened, understood, and we had a great time fishing. :)
so if there is anybody reading this right now that are ruining it for me and steal_mo_head, please STOP! :P... no.. seriously.
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Even if they are long linning with a float or bottom bouncing since when is that illegal? Tell the guy to call dfo and get them to " enfore" it
I get it is flossing but point is it's still legal and until it's not ur harrasing someone who is fishing legal
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Gee, My fishing buddy and I are asian and we've never had that problem. Maybe it may have been an isolated incident?
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Why do you care so much what other people think? I have never concerned myself with what people think. If you know what your doing is ethical what difference does it make that Joe Blow thinks your a snagger?
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S_M_H,
Get used to it! It sucks but you will never get away from being categorized as an Asian snagger. I'm Asian and have being dealing with it for a long time. Most of the guys I fish with are white but when guys see me coming, I'm already labeled a snagger cause I'm Asian. I personally don't care what guys think cause I do it for my self enjoyment and not to prove to someone that I am different. I know that how I fish is definitely correct and in NO WAY aimed at trying to snag fish. Now saying that, it still is possible to snag fish accidentally. Sad to say but I am racist to wards Asian fisherman that I don't know cause of what I've seen. You could try to explain that their technique is neither legal nor ethical but more often then not, you words will fall on deaf ears. This is a common occurrence so of course people will have that perception of Asians.
It's funny when you read posts of people saying that it's just educating new fishermen on what is right and wrong and they maybe right but when you see the same people doing the same thing year after year after other people have tried to explain to them proper techniques, you realize that they don't care. It isn't just Asians, EVERYONE(European,N. American...) is doing it! 2 weeks ago I witnessed a guy(born and raised in the Wack) and his wife snagging pink after pink and dragging them up the sandy beach before kicking them back into the river. The same guy then tries to teach another guy who wasn't catching anything how to setup his rig so that he could hook fish as well, how sad is that! As I was walking out I said to that guy to please careful releasing the fish and he tells me to go F$#@ myself.
You're not a lone if you feel that you are being perceived as a snagger just because your Asian but ask yourself why they would think you're a snagger. Maybe it's the way you are presenting your drifts(always trying to set the hook), maybe the distance from float to weight is such that people can't help but think you are trying to snag fish or is it that you accidentally fouled hook numerous fish. I see it all the time...guys that claim they aren't snagging but all evidence to the contrary. My only issue would be how one treats and respects the fish and surroundings.
I totally agree with you! The only thing is im the guy telling "asian" or what not to not let it drift too far. I say 90-95% of this fish i catch are biting. of course you get the rare occasians of snaggin up even when you're not trying. I spend a lot of time researching for the right bait. How to cure your own roe. Realized shrimp worked great for steall head! why not try it on coho's, jacks, and springs? I spend a lot of time making my roe or shrimp to avoid a snag up. I also can't stand older asian men who are fishing. Guess i will have to deal with it.
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I don't disagree that there is a stereotype out there of certain ethical groups being "snaggers".
That said, I'm as white as they come and have been told I'm snagging fish when I'm quite obviously short-floating bait well off the bottom. Some people are just jealous. So don't assume it's only an asian issue.
Secondly (and I'm not aiming this at you, S_m_h, because I don't know you and have never seen you fishing), some people THINK they are fishing "properly", but are actually snagging and not realizing it. Then they get upset when being accused of snagging, because they think that using a float means you're fishing "ethically".
I'm with Bobo - if you know you're fishing properly, ignore them.
Tex
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I also can't stand older asian men who are fishing.
Why? Because you are ASSUMING they are snagging? The road goes both ways, S_M_H. ;)
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Guys, it's time some of you realized that most of the pre-spawning salmon caught in the rivers are lined, or flossed - intentionally or not.
If you think you are catching them because they consistently bite, you are simply deluding yourselves.
Yes, there is the occasional 'aggression strike' (especially with coho and spring jacks) that ends up with you hooking the fish INSIDE the mouth, but other than that, take a close look at the position of your hook every time you bring in the fish.
Is the point of the hook inside the mouth? If not, the fish is probably lined.
Even short-floating is conducive to snagging if you run your presentation through a thick school of fish. That's why I am done with the Vedder until some heavy rain blows the river and cleans it of pinks.
If you don't believe me, try fishing with circle hooks: (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISServlet?command=getThumbnailImage&oid=1323157) then tell me how many fish you caught.
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I never fish before I came to Canada. My co- worker (Caucasian) in Toronto took me out and showed me how to fish rod, reel....etc. He also let me felt the fish on and showed me how to fight with it ... He taught me about the law, license and opened/closed season.
I did not have a license at the time, I just wanted to experience it first. It was an awesome feeling and now I am hooked. I spent $$ on numerous of rods ,reels, licenses and even buy a boat. Now, I try to pass the same to my new friends. Hopefully, they sux into this game like me.
Fishing is a game of sport. There is a winner and loser at the end. If you don't play by the rule, you will be tagged "snagger" or whatever...
I do not careless what other people think, I know that I played by the rule of fishing. SO beat it.
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I think the use of a spinning reel and rubber boots is better indicator of "snagger" status. I guess you could say I am a bit prejudice, against spinning reels that is.
I did observe a Caucasian guy with a centrepin and a 4 foot leading slaying pinks this weekend... wtf.
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Try being a teenager. I have lost count of how many people say you don't know what your doing or your just a kid or the best was "I am older then you so I know more" act ;) It can be hard at times but when you walk out with springs and coho while they walk out with boot pinks and chum you can hold your head high ;D just have to live with it and don't let it ruin your day :)
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Everybody knows BB is snag fish,snag fish is illegal.but BB is legal.I am so confused.
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Can't judge people by there gear, I know a couple people who fish with spinning reels and they are good rods, there is also many Old timers with cheap gear that fish ethicly that out fish many guys with sims waders,sage rods,milner pins etc etc
Its all in what you can afford to fish with, cheap gear doesnt mean my smelly socks
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Everybody knows BB is snag fish,snag fish is illegal.but BB is legal.I am so confused.
Bottom Boucning and Flossing are 2 completely different things
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Guys, it's time some of you realized that most of the pre-spawning salmon caught in the rivers are lined, or flossed - intentionally or not.
If you think you are catching them because they consistently bite, you are simply deluding yourselves.
Yes, there is the occasional 'aggression strike' (especially with coho and spring jacks) that ends up with you hooking the fish INSIDE the mouth, but other than that, take a close look at the position of your hook every time you bring in the fish.
Is the point of the hook inside the mouth? If not, the fish is probably lined.
Even short-floating is conducive to snagging if you run your presentation through a thick school of fish. That's why I am done with the Vedder until some heavy rain blows the river and cleans it of pinks.
If you don't believe me, try fishing with circle hooks: (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISServlet?command=getThumbnailImage&oid=1323157) then tell me how many fish you caught.
so fishing a hole that is 6 feet deep, and using gear that fishes 3-4 feet deep flosses fish ? just because you hook a fish in the corner of the mouth , or the hook is facing the wrong way does not mean you sangged that fish. I have witnessed hundreds of "takes" (actually seeing them eat it) from fish and you would be suprised the distance they will move for an offering, and how they end up getting hooked.
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Its nice to be honest and a honest fisherman. Please don't misunderstand.....................
I treat everyone fairly but I've seen so much prejudice in Canada that its amazing. I will welcome you I like fishing room. We walk to avoid it but no one should fish within a poles reach of each other. The river is large. I've had groups of people (all nationalities) who have tried to get so close to annoy me so I will leave a hole. I've seen it both ways. You are refreshing and I'm glad you like fishing.
I'm from the US but own a Canadian home and I pay higher taxes and insurance but that is socialism. If a Canadian buys a home in the US, that won't happen. Buying a BC home was my choice. ALso, if I sell, 1/3 goes to your gov't. There is more prejudice in Canada. Ours and the Canadian media have sabotaged what really occurs politically in the USA and that has hurt our relations. Its similar to what is on the river. I'm from the US but Canadians and US people are to me, all Americans. Why am I called a Yankee? Its OK, I like the country and its people. I think you have more humor than the US. I remind all the US people that we are visitors. I also sway them away from knowing about the river. I fear driving my own Washington state vehicle of fear of attacks. I've lost over $3000 US in two vandals incidents toward my vehicle. I get annoyed with the prejudice and the people claiming they don't understand rules on the river. That irritates me.
You've made a reminder of everyone treating each other fairly - which is good. If you correct those on the river, that is also good.
Hope to see you on the river. You can outfish me, I want get mad but I do ok too. ;D
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Bottom bouncing with a short leader is not snagging. There was an article on this I believe last year in BC Outdoors magazine. Some of the water you would want to do this on are the deep pools to put your offering in front of the fish. However, if you bottom bounce with a long leader (eg. five feet long or longer) and put your line in low water runs overrun with pinks, then of course you are going to be snagging fish right and left. Time and place for everything in my opinion.
And Yes fish just saw your post. Wow, getting a bit off topic here but there is prejudice in both countries - yes. However, to say Canada is more prejudiced is a bit strong. For instance, when I lived in Calgary, and followed as a fan the football team there a lot of the black players were amazed at what a great place Canada was. Way less racial discrimination and many made the decision to become Canadian citizens and to live in Canada. As far as taxes and housing. I think for the typical Canadian it is not that easy and for favourable tax treatment you are better off having a principal residence in Canada. If you are set on having a residence in the U.S. it is best to sit down with a knowledgeable U.S tax accountant to see if the numbers make sense.
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There are times when we see things that are not ethical, and when we try to follow the rules with little reward fishwise, it does burn my biscuits when I see someone who is obviously fishing illegally or unethically (don't assume that legal is ethical- that's a whole other thread!) who does get fish and seem proud of it.
Longer story shorter, there are times when I see someone fishing unethically and/or illegally and I am mistaken, and thank my lucky stars I kept my mouth shut because, as said earlier, when I took the time to watch, and I saw I was mistaken. The mutterings of others around me who I assume are knowledgeable (another mistake, we all know) can influence me, too. I don't need a mistaken situation to help me look foolish; I do that pretty good on my own. Asian, Slovakian, German, Scottish, WASP, Martian (or was that the peyote?), I've seen 'em all be unethical, but even more fishing ethically. As usual, it's when we feel we have a right to the fish, and not a right to the OPPORTUNITY to catch fish, that things get nasty.
That being said, a little patience and calm communication can go a long way. And if the person's reply to the civilized inquiry goes awry, then, well, there are alternatives.
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Bottom Boucning and Flossing are 2 completely different things
This has been said time after time but when you are fishing with a float your leader should be around 12 to 18 inches and your float should be sitting straight up at all times and not laying on its side or you will just be doing a form of flossing. Of course you adjust the depth you are fishing by adjusting the float to the depth of the run you are fishing. At all times let the line run free off your center pin, level wind or spinning reel and donot hold back. The exception would be if you are fishing a blade as you have to hold back some to make the blade work well.
With all the pinks in the river even when short floating you will hook up the odd time by a non biting fish but not that many. You must be careful when winding in across the masses of pinks along the slower parts of the runs. However when you see people hauling them in backwards time after time you know the method they are using is not the best way to be fishing to take a biting fish. Some will disagree I know but the best offering to use to take coho and chinooks is good bait. In certain areas a spoon or blade works well too but with so many pinks foul hooking is a problem. I know there is exceptions as fish will take a good wool tie or fly but still bait is the best offering to use, just ask The Master, thats why he uses it most of the time at this time of year.
Unfortunately there is a very high percentage of snagging going on once again this year and I am sure all readers of this form have seen it first hand. As well no one race has a monoply over the snagging and flossing of fish as we all see it every day when on the Chillwack Vedder River or for that matter any river system, a bit disappointing to many of us to see recreational angling go in this direction.
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This has been said time after time but when you are fishing with a float your leader should be around 12 to 18 inches and your float should be sitting straight up at all times and not laying on its side or you will just be doing a form of flossing. Of course you adjust the depth you are fishing by adjusting the float to the depth of the run you are fishing. At all times let the line run free off your center pin, level wind or spinning reel and donot hold back. The exception would be if you are fishing a blade as you have to hold back some to make the blade work well.
With all the pinks in the river even when short floating you will hook up the odd time by a non biting fish but not that many. You must be careful when winding in across the masses of pinks along the slower parts of the runs. However when you see people hauling them in backwards time after time you know the method they are using is not the best way to be fishing to take a biting fish. Some will disagree I know but the best offering to use to take coho and chinooks is good bait. In certain areas a spoon or blade works well too but with so many pinks foul hooking is a problem. I know there is exceptions as fish will take a good wool tie or fly but still bait is the best offering to use, just ask The Master, thats why he uses it most of the time at this time of year.
Unfortunately there is a very high percentage of snagging going on once again this year and I am sure all readers of this form have seen it first hand. As well no one race has a monoply over the snagging and flossing of fish as we all see it every day when on the Chillwack Vedder River or for that matter any river system, a bit disappointing to many of us to see recreational angling go in this direction.
well put Chris, "dead drifting" which is by far the most natural presentation, just free spooling with the current.
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Seems people are judged because they are Asian, Eastern European, too young, too old.... I think its good to ignore what people think, and even better to fish in the quiet spots wheres there's nobody around to comment on how you fish. :)
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Why should the leader only be 12-18? In appropriate conditions I'll use a leader as long as 36" however I shorten my depth big time so I'm still well above the fish, it just gets my "candy" away from my lead and float.
Shorter leaders prevent flossing......
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That's why I am done with the Vedder until some heavy rain blows the river and cleans it of pinks.
Yeah if you want the fish to bite, and don't weant to fish the crowded spots the river can be a bit frustrating. Some people who fish a certain way, or fish the crowded meatholes will catch a lot more fish. Still you can enjoy the quiet spots on the river, and catch some biting fish and it can still be a very good experience.... :)
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Hmmmmm.... must be an isolated incident cuz I'm as chinky eyed as they come (OK, maybe not as much as Rodney :P) but I have never been confronted for snagging etc. even when I was just starting.... judging by your pics you seem to fish fairly popular areas on the lower river and this year the lower river is STACKED with pinks.... so the odd snagging will occur even if you are short floating.... fortunately pinks are small enough to bring in tail first, but if I was fishing a crowded area and accidently snagged a big spring/chum I would either try to break it off right away so as to not disrupt others or walk it down past everybody to break off or land (depending on how cheap I am feeling).... but I would definitely not come back up to my spot with a dead spring in my hand.... unfortunately crowded areas tend to have the most fish but maybe also the most opinionated.... I wonder how many actual coho take downs I missed thinking it might be the back of a pink....
Shane
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Shorter leaders prevent flossing......
especially in these low conditions...but i'm more concerned about the distance from float to weight...
i've seen fishers using high end tackle (i'll leave it at that) with 12 inch leaders, but have their floats set with bobber stoppers (bottom side 10 inches from the weight and the topside stopper set at 4 ft above)...who are they kidding?
i'm talking about runs no deeper than 2 to 4 ft.
i judge people strictly by the manner in which they fish.
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Why? Because you are ASSUMING they are snagging? The road goes both ways, S_M_H. ;)
And no because at the end of their drift all they are doing is REEFING the float as hard as they can to hook something. "every cast" there is a difference when it is incidental and intentional. Im sure everyone here can tell the two apart. ;)
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That said, I'm as white as they come and have been told I'm snagging fish when I'm quite obviously short-floating bait well off the bottom.
What?? You're white? I've always assumed that you're not... ;D
Stereotyping happens in all cultures, best to not worry about what others think about you (but be receptive to suggestions at the same time) and focus on what you can learn and improve on.
Today someone from the other side of the river told Chris and I that coho are passing through the ankle deep water that we were standing in and that we should get out of the water for him (especially since he arrived 4 hours after us). ;D
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/blog/?p=147
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What?? You're white? I've always assumed that you're not... ;D
Stereotyping happens in all cultures, best to not worry about what others think about you and focus on what you can learn and improve on.
Today someone from the other side of the river told Chris and I that coho are passing through the ankle deep water that we were standing in and that we should get out of the water for him (especially since he arrived 4 hours after us). ;D
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/blog/?p=147
lol
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My leaders are around 14-18 inches but may also vary depending on the water. To me, if its in the mouth its fine. I don't jerk on the end of my drift. I drift naturally, hitting bottom every so often but if its irregular you have to fish deep enough. Instinctually, if I have lots of slack sometimes I sense a fish is on and will set the hook.
Sharing rods with whoever has licenses is good.
Love Canada.
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I treat everyone fairly but I've seen so much prejudice in Canada that its amazing.
There is more prejudice in Canada.
I'm from the US but Canadians and US people are to me, all Americans.
Why am I called a Yankee?
I don't even know where to start with this post, but I'll try.
Yes, there is prejudice in Canada, and sometimes the amount and ferocity of it scares me. But to say there is more prejudice in Canada than there is in the US is complete and utter crap. Total BS.
I'm from Canada, and I am NOT an American in the generally accepted usage of the term. I'm Canadian, and proud of it.
Why are you called a Yankee? Because you're from the states. Would you rather be called a Confederate (hello, prejudice)? I'm called a Canuck because I'm from Canada, eh?
I appreciate the flavour of your post (which seems to me to be "why can't we all just get along"), but it gets a bit sour when you in the same breath accuse Canadians of being more prejudiced and calling us Americans.
Try again.
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What?? You're white? I've always assumed that you're not... ;D
Hahaha... hard to believe, eh? I know the blue eyes and blonde hair throw most people off, but I am in fact pretty caucasian. lol
"Stereotyping happens in all cultures, best to not worry about what others think about you (but be receptive to suggestions at the same time) and focus on what you can learn and improve on."
This are my feeling exactly, Rod. Well said.
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So all flossers use long leaders? I can think of a couple types of water and instances where a 12-18" leader would be better for flossing than a 36" leader.
Its the anglers thought of mind and his/her actions that decide to floss (if theyre aware of what theyre doing), not their leader length, gear setup, gum boots or yellow rain coat that make them flossers. There are times when I go out in gum boots and rain gear yet I TRY not to floss fish, but it can still happen.
OK than what are those couple of types? Do you know why a longer leader is a better flossing tool? How would a 12-18'' leader be a better flossing tool. I would like to read legitimate reasons for this as you claim to know.
A flosser or snagger does not have to be a person wearing gum boots or using a spinning rod. A flosser or snagger could be wearing nothing bu Simms clothing and using top of the line sage rods. It has absolutely nothing to do with what they use or wear. It all has to do with how they fish.
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I use a 10-12 inch 15 lb leader, and fish shallow....I highly doubt that would classify as flossing......
A 2 or 3 foot leader is just a waist.....unless you wanna floss.......
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OK than what are those couple of types? Do you know why a longer leader is a better flossing tool? How would a 12-18'' leader be a better flossing tool. I would like to read legitimate reasons for this as you claim to know.
A flosser or snagger does not have to be a person wearing gum boots or using a spinning rod. A flosser or snagger could be wearing nothing bu Simms clothing and using top of the line sage rods. It has absolutely nothing to do with what they use or wear. It all has to do with how they fish.
Yep, saw it today. :-X today after yesterday debates but maybe it was because I had the heavies along with me yesterday, that ould be Rod and Shane, well maybe Shane. ;D ;D
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I just can not resit, actually my friend is a deadlly snagger, he like to spotted fish in traveling lane and use a 12" leader. The reason he use a short leader is because he can judge better where the fish head is. No I don't fish with him ;D
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maybe it was because I had the heavies along with me yesterday, that ould be Rod and Shane, well maybe Shane. ;D ;D
That's fine. I run faster when a confrontation breaks out. ;D
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Flossing and snagging are 2 different things.
As we all know, flossing is using a long leader (8-12') so that the line gets caught in the fish's mouth and then gets pulled through until the hook hits the mouth.
You can easily snag with a short leader - it puts your hook very close to the weight and thus right on top of the fish.
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Flossing and snagging are 2 different things.
No they are not.
Both techniques catch unwilling fish, which did NOT intend to take your presentation.
The only difference is that flossing is technically legal because the hook ends up in the outer corner of the fish's mouth.
Both techniques are equally despicable and should never be used.
Getting the fish to BITE is what makes you an angler.
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Guys, it's time some of you realized that most of the pre-spawning salmon caught in the rivers are lined, or flossed - intentionally or not.
If you think you are catching them because they consistently bite, you are simply deluding yourselves.
Yes, there is the occasional 'aggression strike' (especially with coho and spring jacks) that ends up with you hooking the fish INSIDE the mouth, but other than that, take a close look at the position of your hook every time you bring in the fish.
Is the point of the hook inside the mouth? If not, the fish is probably lined.
Even short-floating is conducive to snagging if you run your presentation through a thick school of fish. That's why I am done with the Vedder until some heavy rain blows the river and cleans it of pinks.
If you don't believe me, try fishing with circle hooks: (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISServlet?command=getThumbnailImage&oid=1323157) then tell me how many fish you caught.
Bingo .... If you want to stop all the .. what ever you call it make it law to only use these types of hooks in the Vedder . I think if some one is hitting fiish all day at this time of the year in the vedder and is using roe or shrimp 95% are flossed or snagged .
I think if you could only use those hooks , the salmon retention in the vedder would drop by at least 99%.
Remember this is only what I Assume. ;)
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You can easily snag with a short leader - it puts your hook very close to the weight and thus right on top of the fish.
Yes you are right but as I said in a previous post you do not hold back so you donot do the sweep. Your float should be straight up and be drifting freely at the speed of the current. This will keep flossing and foul hooking to a minimum.
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I just can not resit, actually my friend is a deadlly snagger, he like to spotted fish in traveling lane and use a 12" leader. The reason he use a short leader is because he can judge better where the fish head is. No I don't fish with him ;D
Same response as I said to Easywater
Yes you are right but as I said in a previous post you do not hold back so you donot do the sweep. Your float should be straight up and be drifting freely at the speed of the current. This will keep flossing and foul hooking to a minimum
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Bingo .... If you want to stop all the .. what ever you call it make it law to only use these types of hooks in the Vedder . I think if some one is hitting fiish all day at this time of the year in the vedder and is using roe or shrimp 95% are flossed or snagged .
I think if you could only use those hooks , the salmon retention in the vedder would drop by at least 99%.
Remember this is only what I Assume. ;)
Of course, these hooks are not designed to catch fish.
This is similar to tying roe to a piece of line and throwing it in the water.
Or just simply fishing in your bath tub at home.
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I agree with Milo, therefore, all fly fishermen should use a 12" to 18" leeder as well...
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Quote..."I think if you could only use those hooks , the salmon retention in the vedder would drop by at least 99%."
did you ever think they want a large harvest of salmon on the vedder/chilliwack ?
only so many for brood stock, and only so many can spawn without digging up earlier redds.
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I agree with Milo, therefore, all fly fishermen should use a 12" to 18" leeder as well...
Correct. When fishing full sink lines or sinking tips, you don't need more than a couple feet of leader. ;)
Dry fly fishing is another story, but then again, snagging is not an issue when fishing dries.
As for circle hooks, they actually help you land fish more consistently than regular hooks. It's close to impossible for a fish to shake off a circle hook embedded in its mouth. Just make sure your hook set is solid. This generally means resist the urge to set the hook right away on the take. Wait one second and then set the hook.
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Everybody knows BB is snag fish,snag fish is illegal.but BB is legal.I am so confused.
Bottom Bouncing IS Legal my friend but what makes it Unethical ( Not correct or proper) is the length of the leader ----in the US the BB method is used extensively for Salmon and Steelhead fishing and is quite productive BUT they use leaders of only 14 to 36 inches depending on conditions --ie Dirty water --short leader , gin clear-- lighter longer leader. What Chris & some others are talking about is the 10, 12, 14 FEET leaders used in Sockeye fishing on the Fraser--- Hope that clears up some of your questions---- Tight Lines/sharp hooks
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So all flossers use long leaders? I can think of a couple types of water and instances where a 12-18" leader would be better for flossing than a 36" leader.
Its the anglers thought of mind and his/her actions that decide to floss (if theyre aware of what theyre doing), not their leader length, gear setup, gum boots or yellow rain coat that make them flossers. There are times when I go out in gum boots and rain gear yet I TRY not to floss fish, but it can still happen.
Look guys, its the MIND SET/thought of mind or whatever you want to call it of the angler that decides which method is used. I whole heartedly agree with all of you that snagging and flossing fish is
deplorable,unethical , yadda,yadda, yadda. We've said it all and have reguritated the rhetoric over and over again. Leader length is not the issue its whether the angler has premeditated thoughts to snag/floss or has had a momentary lasp in ethics .... Sometimes call a Brain Fart to engage in either tactic at any given moment.
We've all seen anglers hold back on their float and sweep a drift to snag/floss their way into a fish. We've all seen anglers rip their floats at every wiggle,dip and slant legiitimizing what they percieved was/is a bite.
I've seen anglers fish short floating a run then go through again using the "sweep method "and seen the ripping anglers change to the classic free drift float straight up and down without ripping through or at the end of his drift. In both cases I've mentioned its clear it is the mind set in play.
I' glad this topic continues to surface as it shows the strong morallity and personal ethics of FWR forum members.
tight lines all
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Quote..."I think if you could only use those hooks , the salmon retention in the vedder would drop by at least 99%."
did you ever think they want a large harvest of salmon on the vedder/chilliwack ?
only so many for brood stock, and only so many can spawn without digging up earlier redds.
Yes, my point was that 99% of all salmon in the vedder are flossed or snagged.
That might be the reason the dfo lets this type of fishing and volume of retention in the vedder.
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I agree with Milo, therefore, all fly fishermen should use a 12" to 18" leeder as well...
Many people assume that all fly fishermen are flossers.
I prefer to flyfish on the Vedder using 3 - 6 feet of t-14 as a sink-tip and use about 3 feet of leader. Any longer, it takes too long for the fly to sink down to the proper zone and I also start having problems with wind knots. Quite frankly, my experience is that I get more bites in a faster current with a shorter leader than a long one because I can control the location of the fly better. For the way I fish, the length of the leader has nothing to do with flossing (for or against). I actually think that it is easier to snag with a shorter leader on the fly (less play in the line, easier to snag a fish with a firm tug). But I could say the same thing with float fishing with a shorter leader; it is all in how you yank on the rod as the hook passes through a run of fish.
I switched over from float fishing about 3 years ago to flyfishing. I just enjoy the casting and the challenge of catching a salmon on a fly more than floatfishing. And in my experience, I catch a hell of a lot less fish fly fishing than float fishing. So where people get the idea that it is easier to kill fish by fly fishing, I don't know.
Some anglers assume or believe that short floating is the only (proper) way to fish on the river. And this is simply not true. Bottom bouncing aka drift fishing is practised widely in the U.S. When I first took up river fishing, I read up on the subject and the preferred etiquette in the US for drift fishing is to give each other room and to take turns fishing from the top of a run down to the bottom of the run (I have never seen this in the float fishing community at the Vedder). Same sort of thing with fly fisherman. By the very nature of fly fishing, I cannot fish in a big crowd of people. I have to find open water to cast and to drift. It is not possible for me to stand at a meat hole shoulder to shoulder with about 5 - 10 feet separating anglers.
On the other hand, the short floating method allows and encourages anglers to crowd together and kill fish in the most efficient manner. All the meat holes at the Vedder are generally fished by the float method. Float fishing allows an anglers to stand close to each other and to cast over each other and to really hammer a meat hole. I can walk a hundred yards away from a crowd to fly fish, but as soon as I get a few hits, three or four float fishermen will usually come over and will crowd me out. Not all, but more than a few have it in their heads that because they are using the "proper" method, they have some sort of priority over the water. Some feel that because a fly guy is hogging up a spot where they could easily fit four to six float fishermen, the fly guy should give way. On any given spot of water, which would stress out or kill more fish: one fly guy or four float fishermen? That's fine, life's too short to argue. I drove almost two hours for a day of fishing, so what's another 5 minutes to walk to another spot.
Of course, i cannot assume that all float fishermen are like this, but there are more than a few.
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All the meat holes at the Vedder are generally fished by the float method.
The meat holes are bounced (or "bounced" with a float) not floated.
Fly fishing with T14 is the same as bouncing.
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Fly fishing with T14 is the same as bouncing.
I beg to differ.
You obviously have never made a serious attempt at fly fishing in rivers, but that's OK. It is common for young "know-it-alls" to make bold statements like the above. I am the father of a 16 y/o know-it-all, so I understand. ;)
Fishing with t-14 can be the same as bouncing, but if you fish ethically and know what you are doing, a T-14 or even T-17 sinking tip is just another proverbial tool in the box.
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I don't know if you guys have noticed but it seems at days end it all comes down to how many fish you'be caught.
If you catch alot, no matter what method you use many will call you names.
As for me all I care is I'm fishing in a way that's least damaging to fish and if a fish got on my line and I won't be keeping I realease it
as carefully as I can.
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I beg to differ.
You obviously have never made a serious attempt at fly fishing in rivers, but that's OK. It is common for young "know-it-alls" to make bold statements like the above. I am the father of a 16 y/o know-it-all, so I understand. ;)
Fishing with t-14 can be the same as bouncing, but if you fish ethically and know what you are doing, a T-14 or even T-17 sinking tip is just another proverbial tool in the box.
ha ha ha, you fly fishing elitists are hilarious.
Your only defense is to take a guess at my person and character and make disparaging remarks at what you hope is correct.
I've done more than my share of fly fishing, rivers included.
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ha ha ha, you fly fishing elitists are hilarious.
Your only defense is to take a guess at my person and character and make disparaging remarks at what you hope is correct.
I've done more than my share of fly fishing, rivers included.
If you read funpig carefully, he only use 3 to 6 ft TC-14 if you do a down stream swing you should know that only get down 2 to 4ft how is it BB, I guest when guys hold back the float when you using spinner that's flossing too.
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The truth of the matter is, flyfishermen (in rivers and streams) snag, bb, floss or whatever you wanna call it as much as anyone else...Just cuz they use a fly and flyrod and try to fool the average float/roe chucker with fancy terms like t-14, type VI, .008 tippet, hemostats etc, they think they can escape the reality of what they really do...I wouldn't even call it elitist, more accurately I'd call it hypocritical. So, when you see a flyfisherman on the river or stream, being one with nature, wearing his $200 set of neos, pulling flies out of his $80 monochromed sterling silver plated fly box, creating a beautiful cast with his $600 rod and playing a fish on his $400 reel, feel comforted knowing he is no better than anyone else that snags, bbs, or flosses fish...Just cuz he's fly fishing, "don't assume" he's any better than anyone else, only assume he thinks he is...
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The truth of the matter is, flyfishermen (in rivers and streams) snag, bb, floss or whatever you wanna call it as much as anyone else...Just cuz they use a fly and flyrod and try to fool the average float/roe chucker with fancy terms like t-14, type VI, .008 tippet, hemostats etc, they think they can escape the reality of what they really do...I wouldn't even call it elitist, more accurately I'd call it hypocritical. So, when you see a flyfisherman on the river or stream, being one with nature, wearing his $200 set of neos, pulling flies out of his $80 monochromed sterling silver plated fly box, creating a beautiful cast with his $600 rod and playing a fish on his $400 reel, feel comforted knowing he is no better than anyone else that snags, bbs, or flosses fish...Just cuz he's fly fishing, "don't assume" he's any better than anyone else, only assume he thinks he is...
WOW , well said I 100% agree in the vedder at salmon season...
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The truth of the matter is, flyfishermen (in rivers and streams) snag, bb, floss or whatever you wanna call it as much as anyone else...Just cuz they use a fly and flyrod and try to fool the average float/roe chucker with fancy terms like t-14, type VI, .008 tippet, hemostats etc, they think they can escape the reality of what they really do...I wouldn't even call it elitist, more accurately I'd call it hypocritical. So, when you see a flyfisherman on the river or stream, being one with nature, wearing his $200 set of neos, pulling flies out of his $80 monochromed sterling silver plated fly box, creating a beautiful cast with his $600 rod and playing a fish on his $400 reel, feel comforted knowing he is no better than anyone else that snags, bbs, or flosses fish...Just cuz he's fly fishing, "don't assume" he's any better than anyone else, only assume he thinks he is...
I neither said nor thought that a fly fisherman is better than anyone else. I just take issue with comments that all fly fishermen are flossers or that the only proper way to fish is to short float. And I just find it ironic that float fishing is the only realistic way to fish under combat conditions like at Tamahi or KWB.
I do not doubt that there are a few unethical flyfishermen, but I am willing to bet that there are a hell of a lot more unethical anglers using the float method.
You can try and stereotype me as a flosser, elitist or some rich guy with really expensive poseur equipment, but you would just be wrong in your assumptions.
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So all flossers use long leaders? I can think of a couple types of water and instances where a 12-18" leader would be better for flossing than a 36" leader.
Its the anglers thought of mind and his/her actions that decide to floss (if theyre aware of what theyre doing), not their leader length, gear setup, gum boots or yellow rain coat that make them flossers. There are times when I go out in gum boots and rain gear yet I TRY not to floss fish, but it can still happen.
If you think a 36" leader is better for short floating you are simply delusional.
A shorter leader in the 12-18" range puts your bait exactly where you want it. With all that extra line between your weight and hook who's to say where your hook is floating, simply no control. Also, with that much extra slack in the line, how are you supposed to know if you have a bite?
I've been fishing some extremely clear water this year 20' + visibility and have still been using my standard 18" leader. Fish don't care about your weight.
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If you think a 36" leader is better for short floating you are simply delusional.
A shorter leader in the 12-18" range puts your bait exactly where you want it. With all that extra line between your weight and hook who's to say where your hook is floating, simply no control. Also, with that much extra slack in the line, how are you supposed to know if you have a bite?
I've been fishing some extremely clear water this year 20' + visibility and have still been using my standard 18" leader. Fish don't care about your weight.
Why some people using size 4 hook and 6lb test line for gin clear condition then. You can alway straighten your slack before your free float.
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Why some people using size 4 hook and 6lb test line for gin clear condition then. You can alway straighten your slack before your free float.
Beacuse they aren't fishing right. I used to fish the size 4 hooks with a 3' leader because I thought the fish were weight shy. Turns out i was doing it wrong. I still see no point whatsoever in fishing a leader longer than 18" on the Vedder at any point in the year.
On notoriously low rivers such as the Chehailis during the summer time I have gone as long as 30" with my leader. It works fine if your using a jig or blade or something else to put tension on your line but it sucks to fish neutrally buoyant baits. You simply cannot properly detect bites.
If you feel the fish are weight shy, it probably means you are fishing slower water where the fish have longer to look at your presentation. In this situation its easier just to decrease your weight than lengthen your leader.
Anyone who uses a 3 foot leader on the Vedder and thinks all their fish are biting is just kidding themselves.
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It works fine if your using a jig or blade or something else to put tension on your line but it sucks to fish neutrally buoyant baits. You simply cannot properly detect bites.
Amen.
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Beacuse they aren't fishing right. I used to fish the size 4 hooks with a 3' leader because I thought the fish were weight shy. Turns out i was doing it wrong. I still see no point whatsoever in fishing a leader longer than 18" on the Vedder at any point in the year.
On notoriously low rivers such as the Chehailis during the summer time I have gone as long as 30" with my leader. It works fine if your using a jig or blade or something else to put tension on your line but it sucks to fish neutrally buoyant baits. You simply cannot properly detect bites.
If you feel the fish are weight shy, it probably means you are fishing slower water where the fish have longer to look at your presentation. In this situation its easier just to decrease your weight than lengthen your leader.
You do know what you talking about ;D
Anyone who uses a 3 foot leader on the Vedder and thinks all their fish are biting is just kidding themselves.
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You do know what you talking about ;D
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I neither said nor thought that a fly fisherman is better than anyone else. I just take issue with comments that all fly fishermen are flossers or that the only proper way to fish is to short float. And I just find it ironic that float fishing is the only realistic way to fish under combat conditions like at Tamahi or KWB.
I do not doubt that there are a few unethical flyfishermen, but I am willing to bet that there are a hell of a lot more unethical anglers using the float method.
You can try and stereotype me as a flosser, elitist or some rich guy with really expensive poseur equipment, but you would just be wrong in your assumptions.
It's not an assumption or stereotype, period...its simply the way fly lines are presented in the river and its simply a case where the flyfisherman is more of a flosser/snagger than the short floater. Camo and slime lines to a 9 foot flourocarbon leeder/tippet to a size 10 fly is an obvious deception tactic. I don't care if your fly line is a foot under the surface, mid water column or on the bottom, its going to floss/snag more fish than the short floater who uses pencil lead and a big gob of roe. Fish travel in all columns of the river when the river is thick with fish, don't try and fool anyone saying that because your line may be 2-4 feet from the bottom that lowers your chances at flossing or snagging a fish. Short floaters that use roe and spinners are targeting fish that "bite." By using camo fly line, long leeders/tippets and a presentation smaller than a size 4 hook it becomes pretty obvious what the real intentions are.
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It's not an assumption or stereotype, period...its simply the way fly lines are presented in the river and its simply a case where the flyfisherman is more of a flosser/snagger than the short floater. Camo and slime lines to a 9 foot flourocarbon leeder/tippet to a size 10 fly is an obvious deception tactic. I don't care if your fly line is a foot under the surface, mid water column or on the bottom, its going to floss/snag more fish than the short floater who uses pencil lead and a big gob of roe. Fish travel in all columns of the river when the river is thick with fish, don't try and fool anyone saying that because your line may be 2-4 feet from the bottom that lowers your chances at flossing or snagging a fish. Short floaters that use roe and spinners are targeting fish that "bite." By using camo fly line, long leeders/tippets and a presentation smaller than a size 4 hook it becomes pretty obvious what the real intentions are.
Frodogga, you have no clue about fly fishing, so please stop spreading misinformation. Ignorant posts as the above can only confuse newcomers to the sport. Remember once and for all and let's put this infantile debate to rest: it is all in the intention of the angler regardless of the equipment he/she chooses to use.
I can floss fish shortfloating wool with a 12" leader, with each and every fish being caught at the mouth. Likewise, I can snag fish with a fly fishing setup if I choose to do so.
Oh, and by BTW, proficient fly fishermen are much cooler dudes than bait chuckers.
That's why you dislike them so much - inferiority complex! :D
Cheers,
Milo (cross fisher and proud of it!)
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The truth of the matter is, flyfishermen (in rivers and streams) snag, bb, floss or whatever you wanna call it as much as anyone else...Just cuz they use a fly and flyrod and try to fool the average float/roe chucker with fancy terms like t-14, type VI, .008 tippet, hemostats etc, they think they can escape the reality of what they really do...I wouldn't even call it elitist, more accurately I'd call it hypocritical. So, when you see a flyfisherman on the river or stream, being one with nature, wearing his $200 set of neos, pulling flies out of his $80 monochromed sterling silver plated fly box, creating a beautiful cast with his $600 rod and playing a fish on his $400 reel, feel comforted knowing he is no better than anyone else that snags, bbs, or flosses fish...Just cuz he's fly fishing, "don't assume" he's any better than anyone else, only assume he thinks he is...
talk about assuming things on the river...... nice post ::) garbage like this doesn't do anything for anyone.
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The truth of the matter is, flyfishermen (in rivers and streams) snag, bb, floss or whatever you wanna call it as much as anyone else...Just cuz they use a fly and flyrod and try to fool the average float/roe chucker with fancy terms like t-14, type VI, .008 tippet, hemostats etc, they think they can escape the reality of what they really do...I wouldn't even call it elitist, more accurately I'd call it hypocritical. So, when you see a flyfisherman on the river or stream, being one with nature, wearing his $200 set of neos, pulling flies out of his $80 monochromed sterling silver plated fly box, creating a beautiful cast with his $600 rod and playing a fish on his $400 reel, feel comforted knowing he is no better than anyone else that snags, bbs, or flosses fish...Just cuz he's fly fishing, "don't assume" he's any better than anyone else, only assume he thinks he is...
At least we end up paying more taxes to pay for public expenditures lol
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Its nice to be honest and a honest fisherman. Please don't misunderstand.....................
I treat everyone fairly but I've seen so much prejudice in Canada that its amazing. I will welcome you I like fishing room. We walk to avoid it but no one should fish within a poles reach of each other. The river is large. I've had groups of people (all nationalities) who have tried to get so close to annoy me so I will leave a hole. I've seen it both ways. You are refreshing and I'm glad you like fishing.
I'm from the US but own a Canadian home and I pay higher taxes and insurance but that is socialism. If a Canadian buys a home in the US, that won't happen. Buying a BC home was my choice. ALso, if I sell, 1/3 goes to your gov't. There is more prejudice in Canada. Ours and the Canadian media have sabotaged what really occurs politically in the USA and that has hurt our relations. Its similar to what is on the river. I'm from the US but Canadians and US people are to me, all Americans. Why am I called a Yankee? Its OK, I like the country and its people. I think you have more humor than the US. I remind all the US people that we are visitors. I also sway them away from knowing about the river. I fear driving my own Washington state vehicle of fear of attacks. I've lost over $3000 US in two vandals incidents toward my vehicle. I get annoyed with the prejudice and the people claiming they don't understand rules on the river. That irritates me.
You've made a reminder of everyone treating each other fairly - which is good. If you correct those on the river, that is also good.
Hope to see you on the river. You can outfish me, I want get mad but I do ok too. ;D
got my BC vehicle broken into in WA… while fishing. ICBC paid about 3 grand of my 4 grand total in losses (G note deductable)
everything depends who you talk to.
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on a side note I am Asian and I don't even like salmon!!!
I catch and release all my fish! (unless my other Asian friend wants a salmon or two :))
My rig of choice for the river is a BB rig (w/ a short leader, i.e 16~24”)
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i know what you mean....i watching the elder asians snag and bonk is pretty ugly.
but watching anyone do it is simply ugly.
oh well.
There is only a handful of people who actually fish for fun.
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Frodogga, you have no clue about fly fishing, so please stop spreading misinformation. Ignorant posts as the above can only confuse newcomers to the sport. Remember once and for all and let's put this infantile debate to rest: it is all in the intention of the angler regardless of the equipment he/she chooses to use.
I can floss fish shortfloating wool with a 12" leader, with each and every fish being caught at the mouth. Likewise, I can snag fish with a fly fishing setup if I choose to do so.
Oh, and by BTW, proficient fly fishermen are much cooler dudes than bait chuckers.
That's why you dislike them so much - inferiority complex! :D
Cheers,
Milo (cross fisher and proud of it!)
Method of fishing has NOTHING to do with snagging/flossing. As Milo put it, it's the intent of the fisher... nothing more, nothing less. That is obvious to everyone isn't it?
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If you think a 36" leader is better for short floating you are simply delusional.
A shorter leader in the 12-18" range puts your bait exactly where you want it. With all that extra line between your weight and hook who's to say where your hook is floating, simply no control. Also, with that much extra slack in the line, how are you supposed to know if you have a bite?
I've been fishing some extremely clear water this year 20' + visibility and have still been using my standard 18" leader. Fish don't care about your weight.
my fishing buddy and I were nailing fish this year in the clear conditions on the vedder and now on some of the gin clear northern rivers with between 8" and 12" leaders! The bites in clear water can be so subtle that with a 24" or longer leader you will miss most actual bites. Mind you I am now fishing a clear 11g or 20g float with one or two large splitshot, so there is not much there to spook fish. Also if you watch fish in clear water, they will spook more from the size or color of your offering than a dull chunk of grey lead. I saw a fly guy the other day switch too a cerise colored fly and the fish absolutely freaked (in a bad way)