Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: milo on October 02, 2008, 09:42:42 AM
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With all these reports about snagging, and after witnessing other poor fishing practices myself, I started thinking about what could be done to improve the situation on our beautiful LML jewel.
There has to be something that can be done to improve the situation, and make angling pleasurable for all of us.
Above are the things I have come up with, in no particular order of preference. I think all the options have their merits and demerits.
I would like to hear other ideas, and get some feedback on the choices I have offered.
Cheers,
Milo
For the record, I voted for the second option, as I believe making it a classified water would keep a lot of unethical fishers away.
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I voted for the third option because it would allow more anglers to enjoy the river-while I see you point about the classified option in the end the C/V system is just a garbage strewn canal not a jewel of a river like we have so many of up north-so it doesn't deserve that kind of attention.
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I voted for the third option because it would allow more anglers to enjoy the river-while I see you point about the classified option in the end the C/V system is just a garbage strewn canal not a jewel of a river like we have so many of up north-so it doesn't deserve that kind of attention.
It's a matter of perception, Sam.
While I agree that the lower river is nothing to write home about, I think the Upper River and many parts of the Mid River are simply gorgeous.
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Personally I think it is pointless bringing in more regs. The good anglers will always fish responsibly and abide by a "code of conduct". The selfish element will always disregard the rules and do what they want anyway, be it totally illegal or 'within' the rules. What is really needed is more frequent and effective enforcement by fisheries officers.
If anything I'd go with closing off small areas which are particularly hazardous to the fish. If I go fishing and get a decent fish in the first 5 minutes, I don't want that to be my day's fishing over with.
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I think all of the options are not necessarily that great. They all come down to enforcement, until that changes none of those changes will have as big of an impact as they should.
Unfortunately with the third option the people will bonk a fish and just move to another spot on the river if they really want to keep fishing and not mark the fish. I am not saying everyone would just blatantly break the law but it will happen, just as it happens with people double dipping in the fraser etc.
One problem with the new printable licenses is the lack of control of marking springs and steelhead that you retain. Even if someone recorded their fish, they cold just print another blank license at any time.
Just a few thoughts
Jordan
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Vedder is a hatchery enhanced river and it's an urban river it serves it's purpose.... ENTERTAINMENT. If you feel like C&R and enjoy privacy go to Ashlu, uppoer Squamish, Chehalis Canyon, Coquihalla River, Thomson, Nicolas.... There's lots of C&R rivers around. Why do you have to mess with Vedder? Even with it's current retention level the river is still doing okay. Minds you people fish Vedder cause it's retention is four. Can you imagine if it's one coho, what kind of impact it will bring to other smaller river system that also has one retention limit? Such as Coquitlam, Kanaka, Alloette....? Vedder has a long protected section for salmon rearing and it even has a fertile lake. If funding is kept up as before, the river can actually handle more hatchery fish. What I would like to see is river specific conservation stamp, and the funding goes directly to the hatchery program of that particular river. People who purchased general non-tidal salmon stamp can only fish say, Oct 10 to Dec 31. And those that purchased river specific conservation stamp gets to fish July 1st to Dec 31st like it is now.
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I voted for leader restriction even though limit daily retention is as important to me. We've seen plenty of fish snagged by people short floating this year so a leader restriction will make the intentional snaggers even better snaggers in the future.
At the end of the day you can change the rules all you want but unless they are enforced nothing will change.
Education imo is the key. Everyone should have to take a test before getting a fishing license.
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take test before license = best !!
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Some very good input so far. Keep it coming, guys.
Testo & 4x4, I absolutely agree with the testing before licensing. But that doesn't apply to the Vedder only.
What I had in mind with this poll (and discussion) is regulatory changes specific to the C/V, which would be feasible to implement and enforce.
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Some thoughts:
"Eliminate hatchery and make it strictly C&R"
Well, the hatchery is there for more reasons, I suspect, than simply providing fish for anglers.
"Declare it classified waters and make people pay 50-100$ a year if they want to fish it."
Personally, I'm rather leery of motions like this, which seem to result in a two-tier system--or at the very least a system where your options of where to fish depend on how much money you have. Though I'm sure the rich ponces that could cough up an extra few hundred for the license wouldn't snag fish--or wait, maybe they still would... (no offense to any rich ponces present:)
The above options, and all others, it seems to me, still depend on DFO doing some enforcement sometime which appears not to be the case at the moment from what I'm hearing. I would think that the simplest thing to do, if there is a group who are really pissed off about this, is to find the name of an actual person in DFO in this area. Inform them that this is an area of concern for snaggers and flossers. They'll probably do their typical bureacratic, yeah yeah, we'll look into it.
Then, have people start doing counts on the river ever day that is possible. Start sending the DFO dude/ette numbers every day. Something like "today we had 2 observers for one hour each. 28 fish were seen snagged and retained". Email the individual DFO officer every day.
What you will create, in a very short amount of time, is a pattern of data that they cannot ignore. After a few weeks of this occuring, send the DFO person an email saying something like "we have made 35 reports in the last two weeks of fish being snagged and retained to DFO officer X. This totals over 115 illegally caught and retained fish. If you are unwilling to address this problem please forward the name of your immediate superior and all email records of our reports to you will be forwarded up the ladder".
This, I have found in similar past experiences is the only way to give bureacrats a motivation to get moving. It requires a little bit of collective thought/ coordination, but bureaucracies move on data, and isolated reports won't get the moving. If nothing is done, then you have a fair amount of rather disturbing data that can be forwarded up the ladder. Someone will eventually get into sh*t and then something will be done.
My apologies for the rant--I don't really have any experience with the Chilliwack/ Vedder (yet! hoping to change that soon!) but I do have a fair amount of experience with gov. bureacracy ;)
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I voted for the limmited retention basicaly since I think people should only keep what they can consume with their own family. 1 salmon can provide you with many dinners! 10 a year on the vedder alone should give you salmon dinner once a week already.
The downside of the option of course is not being able to conitnue fishing afterwards so I'd opt to addition C&R to this option.
Question is how to enforce it, whatever option and in the current situation as well it all comes down to oversight. There should more enforcement of the rules. Now this costs so I'd welcome an increase of (salmon fishing) license fees just to cover some more enforcement of the rules.
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Excellent topic Milo and I commend your effort in initiating this discussion for the well being of this river. And yes, I too believe this river is the jewel of the LML. Sure it's not like the other rivers mentioned in other posts here but it does deserve recognition purely based on it's proximity to the largest city in BC. I have had the pleasure and enjoyment of fishing this river for 16 years now and I have seen a steady decline in etiquette and ethics; especially over the past 5-7 years.
I like the suggestions that you have offered up but I would like to tweak them a bit. If I was King for a day, this is what I'd like to see in this order:
1) More enforcement and presence on this river and continue the trend of undercover CO's. This is the primary way to turn things around on the Vedder.
2) Stiffer penalties for those that brake the laws and this would include raising the fines, license suspension for the repeat offenders and for the harsher crimes committed
3) Classified Waters- YES! This would discourage the people that are not the "true" fisherman and clean up a lot of this nonsense. I would gladly pay the $100 per year if it would mean I would not see any flossers and snaggers.
4) 1 salmon per day (any species) for all rivers with a maximun of 10 per year (that's plenty of fish for any household), but you ARE allowed to keep fishing once you have bonked your one fish. It is hard to tell people that come from Vancouver to go home once they've caught their 1 fish. That’s not fair. You have to ask yourself what is more important…………..bringing home 4 fish per day or the conservation of a fish species?
5) More closures on the river! Keep the hatchery hole closed and also add the Vedder Crossing and 300 meters downstream to the list. (Only if the above restrictions are not in place. The above suggestions should be able to alleviate some of the problems if not all)
6) Leader restrictions no more than 3 feet on all rivers!
Having a so called test to get your licence would not be that effective in my opinion. Everyone or most everyone knows the rules and the proper way a river should be fished, but they choose not to abide by these. One could pass the test and then revert back to the way they think it should be fished.
Every fisherman should be able to live with these suggestions. If not, you have to reconsider why you are fishing in the first place.
See you in 7 days! ;D
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If you had a leader restriction, how could you fly fish?
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Different scenario all together. The problem is where certain individuals fish the Vedder like they do the Fraser. They will fish with an extremely long leader from there weight so the extra line length can come across and sweep the hole pool with the intentions on snagging fish. Some people on the Vedder even use a bouncing betty ball and an 8 foot leader dragging it through the pool.
I have no problem with fly fishers at all as the majority of them are actually "true" fisherman and they are there for the sport. I wish there were more of them.
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All good suggestions, Milo, but like you said, each has it's inherent problems.
I chose leader restriction, simply because I think it's the most reasonable way to improve the ethics on the river.
The meat harvesters will always find a way around it, but it will certainly help in the short term.
I don't support making it classified waters. Although I would glady pay more to fish the C/V system (and honestly I'd pay more for my license in general if I know it's going directly back into the fishery), I don't think it's fair to eliminate those who can't readily afford increased costs. Suddenly you're making fishing too privatized, in a sense.
I don't think restricting limits would help... it's already a hatchery enhanced river, and those fish are there to be caught. 1 fish would be awfully small, and look at how many people visit the fraser for only 2 fish.
I don't want to see closures on the river either. People will just concentrate elsewhere.
The number one thing we need though is more enforcement, along with education. Anything else is just a band-aid.
Good discussion.
:D
Tex
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I'd also like to add that the majority of the "problem" fisherman do not read forums like this one or the others so its very tough to teach and educate them and thats the main reason why changes need to happen.
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I think all of the options are not necessarily that great. They all come down to enforcement, until that changes none of those changes will have as big of an impact as they should.
Agree
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i vote for the third option because i think the problem is with the numbers.(any fish out the system is out no matter if snagged or hooked by the rules); would be fair to put money in as much as you get fish out, and this money can really help hatcheries;
lets look at an example lafarge lake; it was stocked this week, 1000 rainbows about 200 grams each; durring the next 2 weeks you'l see on the shore the same fishermens, everyday, and catching by the rules 4 rainbows (no snagging); the fish will last max 1 month;
We pay the same licence fee. Why the stocking while the most of the fish is taken out by a small group of fisherman, and why should i pay for this? This can't go on to long.
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Tex, good point that all new introductions of rules is band-aid, the current rules are sufficient (except for a yearly limmit maybe) and that enforcement of the rules and a solid education is the only way.
Sending CO's out there continuously costs money so where do we pay them from if it isn't from an increase in salmon fishing license or making it classified waters. I don't know...
Education: why not having the angler pass a test for a salmon fishing license? I agree most people know the rules (although there are also quite some people who I meet while fishing whose english is so minimum that I think they won't be able to read the rules). With a test you can focus on why the rules are there in the first place.
Great discussion!!
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Tex, good point that all new introductions of rules is band-aid, the current rules are sufficient (except for a yearly limmit maybe) and that enforcement of the rules and a solid education is the only way.
Sending CO's out there continuously costs money so where do we pay them from if it isn't from an increase in salmon fishing license or making it classified waters. I don't know...
Education: why not having the angler pass a test for a salmon fishing license? I agree most people know the rules (although there are also quite some people who I meet while fishing whose english is so minimum that I think they won't be able to read the rules). With a test you can focus on why the rules are there in the first place.
Great discussion!!
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Sending CO's out there continuously costs money so where do we pay them from if it isn't from an increase in salmon fishing license or making it classified waters. I don't know...
The money should come from stiffer penalties, more penalties, and classified waters tags. All this extra money should primarily go towards hiring another CO. I work for the government and things are getting tighter and tighter these days. The money has to come from somewhere and this is the most logical place.
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Leader restrictions is tough when you are not mandating float fishing. I'm more interested in seeing an education/enforcement/ program put into place with higher licensing fees to pay for it.
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Leader restrictions is tough when you are not mandating float fishing. I'm more interested in seeing an education/enforcement/ program put into place with higher licensing fees to pay for it.
I agree leader restriction on the Vedder may help some but a lot of long lining happens with short leaders, they just lenghten out their float line. This has been mentioned many times before. Then there is some people fishing in a confined space like the Abutment Hole this year with a short leader and a betty and are into the fish regularly, caught in every place but the mouth.
As I said to Gwyn yesterday the only way to stop the way too many are working the water these days would be you could not have more than 4 feet of line from your fixed float to your hook.
I realize this statement is not practical and should most likely not even mention it as it would penalize those that fish properly including those that like to fish a fly in the proper manner fishing in proper fly water or those that chuck a blade or a spoon.
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leader restriction is the best thing.... spot closures do nothing about the type of fishing, it just moves spot to spot and less area for everybody to fish.... the hatchery is there for a reason...if it shuts down that river is in trouble. 1 fish a day is ok, id prefer 2 and unlimited per year... but with recording of hatchery coho a must. and only 10 a year of them.
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i voted on retention limit....we are there for enjoying fishing, not for seeking something for dinner
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The only reason these problems are focused to the Vedder is because it is all that is left. Our once great LM fisheries have all gone for a crap. Every little creek and river From hope to Squamish supported coho fisheries and spread both the good and bad fishers around. Why not look at the big picture here instead of trying to over regulate what we have left.
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None of the above would work in my opinion.
What would work is enforcing the already existing laws and punishing those who break them severely.
- Close the hatchery is out of the question. We need more hatcheries, not fewer.
- Leader restriction wouldn't work. It's not necessarily the leader that's snagging fish. It's the whole rig working together.
- I don't want to pay $100 to some government bureaucracy. The money never goes to what says on the label. Plus it's not goverment's property.
- Catch & Release doesn't work, I like to eat fish every once in a while.
We should have the cops to the job we are paying them to do!
Or maybe we should all go PETA! >:( >:(
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If you had a leader restriction, how could you fly fish?
To fish salmon in a river you dont need more than a 2-3 foot leader. I never use more than that. Their is your answer.
As far as the poll goes. Personally I dont see an option I would choose. This being a major hatchery enhanced river the retention limits are fine. Restricting leaders is not an issue as the snaggers will just not use floats and snag them that way.
The only thing I truly believe that needs to be done is more enforcement. They should have atleast one CO if not two CO's on that river during peak times. Just think of all the fines they would collect and the revenue it would generate. The government is too stupid to see that though. They see paying for another couple CO's as an added expense they dont want to pay for, but the fines alone would pay their salaries and bring in way more money than they would have to put out.
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I liked the idea of retention limits.
I think with alot less "fill your freezer"guys on the river it would make for a more enjoyable day on the river.
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Use as anglers have to do are part and not kill every fish we catch, if its that serious.
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I like the one fish per day max 10 per year idea
I do to but there are a lot of not truthful people out there......
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I have no problem with fly fishers at all as the majority of them are actually "true" fisherman and they are there for the sport. I wish there were more of them.
Isn't true fisherman fish to support their family? Catching fish is first priority. Fish for fun is only very resent.
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I just wanted to point out that when you flyfish with a floating line, you typically need 10 feet of leader to get the fly away from the line, as the fish don't come close to it.
If there was a restriction, there would have to be an exemption put in place for floating fly lines, as it is a 100% legitimate technique...
I would not want to see gear restrictions or closures, but education programs put in place, and larger fines and policing, so snaggers see it does not pay.
Why the heck is there not a dedicated CO for the Vedder during salmon season? We need one badly. Many of these problems would immediately stop with regular enforcement.
Cheers,
Nicole
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Yes but then will have to add you can not add any weight to the 'floating line' or to the leader.
Practically any more reg change it's going to be confusing and wording has to be so precise only lawyers would understand how to fish. :P Just add more enforcement, that's the real problem solver.
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The Vedder is the prime hatchery river. Let's keep it that way. Those who wants solitude and c&r can go to many other systems. The fish are there to be taken. There is an over abundance of fall salmon so conservation is no concern, so why all the restriction and limits as if we don't have enough already? I visited the hatchery today. Oh boy, even this early in the season, the hatchery is full of fish already. Pretty soon the fishway will be so choke full of fish that it cannot hold any more late arrivals.
I think if the objection is the snag fest, then restriction of leader length is a good solution, and make sure enough enforcement to make it work. I was checked today by a CO who asked if I know the regs. That is a good approach. He can bring along a tape to check leader length, and this should solve the snag fest problem. Another way is to shut down places of fish trap which attract too many fishermen and the fish don't stand a chance by being snagged into the body all day. Those places should be temporarily shut down.
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on the vedder it should be that you could only use roe and hardwear no wool or any other my smelly socks like that
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I just wanted to point out that when you flyfish with a floating line, you typically need 10 feet of leader to get the fly away from the line, as the fish don't come close to it.
If there was a restriction, there would have to be an exemption put in place for floating fly lines, as it is a 100% legitimate technique...
I would not want to see gear restrictions or closures, but education programs put in place, and larger fines and policing, so snaggers see it does not pay.
Why the heck is there not a dedicated CO for the Vedder during salmon season? We need one badly. Many of these problems would immediately stop with regular enforcement.
Cheers,
Nicole
coz nobody paying or nobody bother to try to get volunteers
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Totally agree Nicole. Not sure how it is up ther, but down here, a portion of our enforcement's budget comes from fines issued. If they're not paid, it ='s jail time and loss of future fishing rights. The laws are in place, it just comes down to enforcing them. If they are, they'll pay for the extra enforcement. When things get corrected, not as much enforcement will be needed.
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make it an "anything goes" stream-- fill your boots ::)
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I voted for #2. For a couple of years now I have favored that option.
To be effective, every one of the options listed would require more official "observation" and enforcement. #2 is the only option that provides the revenue to do that.
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Ya, I fully agree with Morty's statement, #2 is the only logical answer that has potential to be enforced on a greater scale.
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Making a hatchery enhanced river into classified river? What for? That's a waste of hatchery funding.
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If the voting so far is typical of the fishers who use the Chedder - option #2 would cut down on the crowds by 85%
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So pretty much you want solitude when fishing, and not aiming to get people to fish the right way.
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How about a modified # 2 : Triple/Quadruple the price of the non-tidal salmon tag to $25. Make it apply to Vedder & Fraser and whatever other river you can fish salmon on. Use the money for enforcement, enhancement and education. At that price it's not likely to deter that many people, but can help pay for the much needed enforcement.
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Making a hatchery enhanced river into classified river? What for? That's a waste of hatchery funding.
Exactly. The only way this works is on a wild system. The fish are there for all to enjoy. If you want solitude fish other tributaries of the fraser.
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Make of it what you want for your day on the Vedder. If you don't want to watch people snag fish then don't go to the places where the snagging occurs. With all of the crap that takes place on the river it is still possible to go there on any given day and still catch a few fish however you want to choose to catch them. Leave the policing of the regulations to the people who are paid to enforce them.
I don't see what classifying a hatchery river is going to accomplish or imposing a leader length restriction or changing the retention numbers. The Vedder has a strong number of returning hatchery fish so let some one take a few home if they choose, if that number continues to be limited then there will be an increase in poaching as people will still try to get the fish they want for their table and it may spill over to a system that can't afford to lose any fish. As for leader length restriction it will take up additional time for CO officers and spread them even thinner then they are as they will have to spend more time with each person checked. Classifying the river or limiting the rentention sound like moves to get people off of the river, why? The Vedder can and does sustain the pressure, and as people have said it takes it off of rivers that don't need it. If the crowds bother you then park and go for a walk. Their are several areas that a person can walk to on the Vedder and spend the day by yourself catching fish all day.
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Make of it what you want for your day on the Vedder. If you don't want to watch people snag fish then don't go to the places where the snagging occurs. With all of the crap that takes place on the river it is still possible to go there on any given day and still catch a few fish however you want to choose to catch them. Leave the policing of the regulations to the people who are paid to enforce them.
While I agree with most of your points, I strongly disagree with the part I have highlighted in your quote.
Those paid to enforce the regulations need all the help they can get from the common citizen. This holds true in all walks of life - fishing included.
The laws are changed when there is continual popular clamor for them to be changed.
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Milo, when I am fishing the Vedder I have come from Alberta and don't feel it is up to me to stop people from fishing illegally, on some parts of the river it would consume your entire day to try. Such confrontations typically end badly and leave a sour taste in ones mouth and since I am on a trip I don't bother. That is not to say that I have not been approached by several novice fisherman on the river over the years who have asked how it is possible to catch so many fish, and I have taken a moment to show them how to rig and fish a short float or talk about the run. I have even been approached and accused of snagging once by an individual until I had him wade out to the rock I was standing on and showed him the slot I was fishing where the coho went thru then paused breifly behind a rock before turning to go between two other rocks. He thought I was snagging because every once in a while I would jerk my line out of the water. I showed him how every so often a chinook would go thru and I was jerking the line away from the fish before I got a hit since I didn't want to fight a chinook. I also showed him that a coho will open and close his mouth on yarn and even open his mouth again and shake his head until the hook comes out and you won't necessarily feel it but you can see it. He apologized for his comment and I gave him the slot to fish.
I have approached people on the Bow River and a few of the lakes in Alberta when they were obviously fishing illegally and asked them to stop. Maybe it is a home water thing and you are quicker to act when it is your home waters and not a guest. I don't know.
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Milo, when I am fishing the Vedder I have come from Alberta and don't feel it is up to me to stop people from fishing illegally, on some parts of the river it would consume your entire day to try. Such confrontations typically end badly and leave a sour taste in ones mouth and since I am on a trip I don't bother. That is not to say that I have not been approached by several novice fisherman on the river over the years who have asked how it is possible to catch so many fish, and I have taken a moment to show them how to rig and fish a short float or talk about the run. I have even been approached and accused of snagging once by an individual until I had him wade out to the rock I was standing on and showed him the slot I was fishing where the coho went thru then paused breifly behind a rock before turning to go between two other rocks. He thought I was snagging because every once in a while I would jerk my line out of the water. I showed him how every so often a chinook would go thru and I was jerking the line away from the fish before I got a hit since I didn't want to fight a chinook. I also showed him that a coho will open and close his mouth on yarn and even open his mouth again and shake his head until the hook comes out and you won't necessarily feel it but you can see it. He apologized for his comment and I gave him the slot to fish.
That is fascinating.
Can I fish with you this weekend?
I am serious.
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Maverick, paint a big red X on that rock so I can find it! Seriously though, I've been fishing the Vedder since the mid 70's and have seen a lot of change. Both in the river itself and in the people who fish it. Change is inevitable and some of the changes have been positive, some negative. There are a lot more people enjoying the river now and often use methods that a lot of people don't like or appreciate. The government has done what they are going to do and that's pretty much all they will do. A few folks are very blatent snaggers and just grip it and rip it. They are the ones who need to be moved out of all fisheries entirely. I don't really care about leader length, distance between float and sinker as different runs, lines, wts, and lures all require different techniques. What I do dislike is fishermen giving the line a hopeful rip at the end of every drift. Because that's a plain attempt to pull the hook into a fish. We all floss more fish than we think. The way fish stack up in holes and runs isn't in neat rows, all next to the bottom, and stationary. Fish move constantly throughout the water column and are constantly opening and closing their mouths. In my younger, and cheaper, days I used to scuba the holes and salvage gear. The only fish that I ever say that remained motionless on the bottom were the old spawned out fish that were living out the last hours and days of their lives. I know that a lot of you live and breathe short floating, but it still can floss regardless of intent or whats on the hook. I predominantly fly fish anymore and nymph under an indicator rather than swing streamers. I dislike foul hooking fish as it's tough on the arms dragging fish in sideways. After all of the above verbage my take on the situation is to get rid of the grip it and rip it guys. Leader lengths are really tough to enforce as it's nearly as easy to deliberately floss with a 1 ft leader as a 10 ft one. As far as confronting others on the flow, I think that it's a bad, unsafe idea as who knows what the temperament and physical nature is of the person. Far better to leave this to those with a gun and badge.
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2 fish per day. (allows for meat fishers to go home quicker)
limit leader restriction 1 1/2 - 2 feet.
Dont restrict people to the point where the gong show will move to other quiet systems.
Have some sort of Testing before recieving a fishing license, Iv seen 3 dead cultus sockeye in the last 2 weeks.
Something needs to be done to fix that god damn clay bank.
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Regulating leader length, barbs, retention quotas etc all comes down to enforcement. Without a greater presence of CO's on the Vedder the same practices will continue. Without penalties there is little incentive for people to be responsible. This transcends fishing into other problems brought up in previous posts, litter, illegal camping and breakin's. Again, this is an enforcement issue. Under funded and under staffed the RCMP view the Vedder as a low priority yet when it comes time for traffic enforcement they seem to find time to park at the bottom of the hill at Ways field or by the trailer park near "on the way" store??? City council, local MP's, who's going to listen. Uh oh here I go getting political on a fishing forum... this is the only arena that these battles are typically fought in. If change is going to occur and the Vedder is going to be protected these are the people to do it. There is a local election for councilors, make them aware, make it an issue, make them fight for the change.
Peace
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Anytime you catch a fish and some bozo is watching, they will stand right on your my friend and start casting. This attracts more bozo's who join in until it's a full blown circus. Always been that way and always will. They even go for the lowest common denominator in catching technique.
"Misery loves company"