Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rodney on July 30, 2005, 01:42:55 AM
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As some of you have already read today's notice by DFO regarding Southern BC sockeye openings (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=7112.msg67118#msg67118). Fraser River recreational sockeye fishery is not scheduled to open until sometimes next week due to concerns of intercepting the last batch of Early Stuart sockeye salmon that are still coming in.
At our last meeting with FN, we explained to them the current status of ES sockeye stock, and we asked them to possibly hold off any net fishery for sockeye until next week like us. Well, the first FN sockeye opening is scheduled to start this Saturday.
My thoughts: FN has priority access but conservation is top priority. I guess by allowing this FN opening, there is no longer a conservation concern? ???
Anyways, there IS still a concern, so the opening was cut from 72 hours to 48 hours. ::) There will be a set net fishery taking place from 18:00 Saturday to 18:00 Monday. In addition, (!) A sockeye drift net fishery has also been given from 08:00 to 20:00. *
In addition, there is also a dry rack fishery taking place during daylight hours in the canyon. *
* I have to reconfirm these as I am not exactly sure the dates (I think it's Saturday). Maybe CG can find out first and post them tomorrow.
These openings will take place between Port Mann and Sawmill Creek. While we may not like the netting, please respect the participants in the fishery as it is, after all, legal. In the meantime I suggest that you put your concerns forward to those who can make a difference.
Please also report all net fishing outside these hours to the ORR line, which is 1-800-465-4336.
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Some update: The driftnet fishery is taking place tomorrow (Sunday) from 08:00 to 20:00 between Port Mann and Sawmill.
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I guess there won't be too many chinook salmon being caught on the bar fishing rods this weekend and fishing will probably not pick up until mid next week, since any by-catch chinook salmon would be kept too in the nets. This is a sockeye net fishery, not a selective fishery for chinook like they had in the last few months. The net mesh size would be smaller.
The latest test fisheries suggested 90% of the Early Stuart sockeye salmon have passed through Mission, but there are still some fish coming through. Normally a FN net fishery is 72 hours long. Since there are some concerns, the opening time has been reduced to 48 hours.
This part is the best one. :) Since they will not be able to catch as many fish in 48 hours to meet their requirement, DFO also granted an additional 12 hour driftnet opening to the FN.
Methodology in question
In tidal Fraser River, a drift gill net causes minimal impact as the river is wider and deeper. A 250 foot drift net equipped with lead line dragging along the bottom as it drifts down the Upper Fraser River certainly does not have mercy. On the other hand, a set net allows fish to swim by, but any by-catches such as sturgeon can easily die from drowning as the nets are usually left in the water for hours.
Anyways, good luck if you are out there this weekend. Send in your concerns if you observe actions that you do not approve on the river.
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this is simply shameful and a smack in the face to those of us that have refrained from "non selective" methods for the past weeks. I urge all those that feel similar to start firing off letters to dfo, mp's and such. Perhaps someone can post the addresses of those powers that be that these complaints should be directed to.
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Office of the Prime Minister
80 Wellington Street
Ottawa K1A 0A2
pm@pm.gc.ca
Honourable Geoff Regan
House of Commons
Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Parliament Buildings, Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6
Canada
Min@dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Jim Wild, Lower Fraser Area Director
Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Area Director's Office
100 Annacis Parkway, Unit 3
Delta, British Columbia
Canada V3M 6A2
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excellent, thanx Rod
perhaps some of us sporties should send letters to the Indian Affairs ministers as well and let them know what a black eye the cheams are giving our countries first nations groups.
they are showing thier true colors by requesting and acting on this current opening.
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excellent, thanx Rod
perhaps some of us sporties should send letters to the Indian Affairs ministers as well and let them know what a black eye the cheams are giving our countries first nations groups.
they are showing thier true colors by requesting and acting on this current opening.
While you may feel better after venting your frustration to the Indian Affairs Minister, it would do little good because they are not mandated with that responsibility. The letter will simply be routed to the Fisheries Minister for response.
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your probably right.
I wonder how the local media will present this if they cover it all. I know i sound like i'm ranting but i can't fathom why an opening would be given for sockeye, gill net fisheries, when the early stuart fish are under the 50% run size projection and still in the waters listed in the opening. Can't they wait..... do they not believe in conservation ??? this is what troubles me. I'd love a face to face with the FN reps that are at these meetings that Rodney and others have been attending. I can accept the chinook openings with the large gill mesh requirement so as to avoid sockeye bycatch but this opening for sockeye, after the forcasts, predictions and explanations that came out in the department letter, july 29, should not be happening. By the time any letters can go off, it'll all be over that's what pisses me off the most.
oh well, not trying to entice a riot or nothin
and thanx for letting me rant ;D
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Totally agree with you Thomas . It certainly defies any logic.
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Expressing your concerns here is also very constructive as many DFO staff who are responsible for the above mentioned areas read these posts (hullo there! ;) ). Those concerns will hopefully be taken into consideration for future decision making.
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if the natives want fish for the future then why fish a fishery when the numbers are so low? greed i'd say .
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Could it also be, nobody has the ballz to stand up to these people? This IS 2005. This IS Canada! Play by the rules of the majority or leave....( I didn't say go home)
I for one (and not just because of fishing) am tired of laws for only a select few. And enforcement of laws against a select few. I had nothing to do with the few settlers that made Canada what it is TODAY... I work and earn everything I have. I don't blackmail the tax payers and/or the government every time my nose starts to run. I am damn well fed up with people that don't want to move on and do what is in the best interest for ALL the people of this fine Country.
PS: come on...can we not be a "united" country. We have been split for to long.
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Like most recreational fishermen, most First Nations individuals would like to see the resource that they rely on sustainable. The unfortunate part is, when three groups (recreational, commercial, First Nations) compete for the same waters to catch the same fish, the stocks deplete without being noticed.
The problem is not that simple. Shutting it down completely is not the answer. Who are we to tell the First Nations to stop fishing for the fish that they have depended on for thousands of years because of conservation concerns after most of the stocks were originally wiped out by us in the early part of last century?
Please don't suggest that they should harvest by using traditional methods in a canoe too, when there are hundreds of jet boats roaming around during the season. This is a case of traditional values clashing with industrialization.
It's not about the sportfishing sector is not getting more fish than First Nations. Anglers go fishing because we look for the recreational aspect of it. We request for openings so we have longer fishing time. First Nations fish for food, it's a way of life and quantity of fish is what they are looking for.
This is about decisions being made by DFO based on reasons that contradict each other. If conservation is a concern, then all sectors should be closed. Why is the recreational sector not allowed to fish due to these concerns while an opening is granted to First Nations, especially the amount of fish harvested by the recreational sector is only a small percentage of what First Nations will take out this weekend? We accept the fact that net openings will take place, but we don't accept the fact that they cannot wait for a few more days.
There are other concerns that we have about the First Nations fisheries. Please voice these issues when you decide to send your letters in:
- Management of First Nations fishery should be based on allocation limit, not frequency and length of opening time. The methodology employed by First Nations fishers is a lot more effective than a rod and reel. Once allocation limit (number of fish that can be harvest by a group) is reached, the fishery should remain closed.
- Better monitoring system is required. Currently monitoring and creel recording is done internally by trained First Nations staff. We would like to see a better fish tracking system designed and all monitoring should be done by a third party (ie. DFO) for the purpose of conservation.
- Illegal netting outside of the fishing hours (ie. during closures, at night) should be strongly dealt with. The good news is thre has been improvement on this since last year's episode.
At our last resolution dialogue meeting with some of the chiefs, they also brought up concerns that they have. One of them is fishing access issue. There's no doubt that participations in the recreational angling sector have grown tremendously in the last ten years. This growth has direct negative impact on their fishery. When openings are granted to First Nations, they find it hard to fish as most desired waters are usually lined up with boats or shore anglers. Often they end up drifting a net through the middle channels where the water is deeper. As a result, less fish are in fact caught during the openings.
This is a very valid concern. How do we expect them to net when the waters they plan to fish are already taken up by other boats?
Based on this concern, bands in the Fraser Valley have put forwarded a proposal to DFO. The proposal requests that recreational angling on some of these bars should be closed (I am unsure of the exact proposal, but there are three bars being proposed, one of them is Grassy). That's all the information i have about the proposal at this point, but I will provide updates whenever possible.
Eventually, compromises need to be developed. Conflicts will continue to occur if the management puts two different groups with the same common interest in one area at the same time. Maybe the opening periods need to alternate between the two. The solutions are not easy, but they will emerge eventually.
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That is all fine too Rod!
But, what about the FN folks that are selling fish out the back of the truck??
I told a woman that bought fish from a FN person every year that she should report that person...it was illegal!
As far as commercial fisheries...they should not be aloud to place a net within so many meters of the mouth of the Fraser river.
Just more of my venting!
BOB
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One more thing...Rod...you said...." most First Nations individuals would like to see the resource that they rely on sustainable"
Good for them...get into this century! I want to buy a house for 8000 buxs like my folks before me! I want to raise my family on MY income alone and keep my wife home to raise the children! Like my folks before me! I want to buy a NEW truck for 3500 buxs like my folks before me!
Need I go on!
Let's stop living in the past!
BOB
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i have had conversations with natives from outside the Cheam/Sto lo region and they are just as fed up as us sporties with the behaviors and me first attitude of our local bands.
I wonder how many boozed up fn's we'll see wandering around Rosedale and Hope bars over the next few days.
Some will say that comment is nasty and unecessary, BULL, I lived in Rosedale and Chilliwack for a number of years. Funny to watch those ceremonial sockeye turn into molson canadian or Canadian Club within days of netting openings.
The word of the Cheam and the Sto'Lo have no meaning to me, if they say conservation to sustain the resource is important to them..... I call them LIARS and HIPOCRATES.
I also have close friendly ties to former members of the Cheam's fishery, anyone remember the Ned family?? Well, the individual I know was a very active member of the band when it came to the fishery, he now wants nothing to do with it because he does not agree with band policy on these fisheries.
After having his own nets stolen in the night from his net shed and his "brothers" in the band stealing them to go fish at night to get money for beer and barbeque, netting 350 sox in a few hours and selling as many as they could before the ice was all gone. It was estimated by my friend that they managed to sell about 50 of thier catch ($500.00) and had to dump 4 coolers of rotting sox because they had no way to keep them cold. utterly shameful and the "real deal" on how these people behave.
well, I'm done
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Who are we to tell the First Nations to stop fishing for the fish that they have depended on for thousands of years because of conservation concerns after most of the stocks were originally wiped out by us in the early part of last century?
Things change.............. Get a JOB if they want to eat, like most other Canadians
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i experienced soemthgn today on the cap that i never realized. down by park royal mall there is a little bridge that crosses the cap below marine drive. I was on it looking down and noticed a huge rock weir they made. It was really low water so i doubt many fish come up but if they do they are defiently not getting by!!. Im not sure if some do come up but the whole river was like blocked. It was pathetic. I was ready to run down there and start throwing rocks everywhere. But i knew that wastn the right thign to do. and they probably wernt gettign anythign so i decided not to. IT PISSED ME OFF!! :-X
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even though i said i was done..... :D
the cap is a different thing altogether. the remaining runs in the cap are totally man made. not runs that are still totally wild like the stuart sockeye.
although it bugs me that our liscence monies fund the salmon enhancement on the cap and it is the natives below park royal who think they own the fish.
oh well, my faith in an honest working agreement on the fraser is completey dashed. This weekends FN fishery shows me the true colors of the mission to hope FN's and the DFO. Too bad it is the Early Stuart and Early Summer sockeye that have to pay the price.
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i experienced soemthgn today on the cap that i never realized. down by park royal mall there is a little bridge that crosses the cap below marine drive. I was on it looking down and noticed a huge rock weir they made. It was really low water so i doubt many fish come up but if they do they are defiently not getting by!!. Im not sure if some do come up but the whole river was like blocked. It was pathetic. I was ready to run down there and start throwing rocks everywhere. But i knew that wastn the right thign to do. and they probably wernt gettign anythign so i decided not to. IT PISSED ME OFF!! :-X
They've been constructing fishing weirs down there for as long as I can remember
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I was ready to run down there and start throwing rocks everywhere. But i knew that wastn the right thign to do. and they probably wernt gettign anythign so i decided not to. IT PISSED ME OFF!! :-X
Good decision. Please don't touch those weirs, any unlawful action would only escalate the tension. Keep in mind, as mentioned earlier, we are talking about two completely different fisheries. The native fisheries are food fisheries. To them, a fish is not a toy as a recreational angler would see it, but a food substance. How it is caught may not be accepted by the recreational sector, because they are not doing it for the recreational aspect.
Information of the Capilano Weirs can be found on this page (http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishy_news/050713-1.html). You may not agree with all of the points in the document. If that's the case, you're welcome to provide feedbacks by posting them here or email to info@fishingwithrod.com and I would be happy to forward those concerns to the staff that is responsible.
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Regarding illegal sales of the fish caught by FN, make your concerns heard by phoning the offices whenever you see a sale going on. Write letters in to those who can make a difference. Report all illegal activities by phoning the OOR line (1-800-465-4336), even if you believe nothing would be done. If calls continue to flood in, actions will be taken. Make the problems heard otherwise it'll still go on without being noticed by majority of the public.
Keep in mind illegal sales of the fish are being done by some FN, not all. Most do want to make a difference, built a better trusting relationship with other communities. However this cannot happen until both all sectors sit down together, express their concerns about each other, develop understandings and solutions to the issues. No FN individuals are going to listen to your demands unless you listen to their thoughts. Comments such as "get a job if you want to eat", or "stop living in the past" are not helpful.
Keep in mind the media loves this sort of tensions. They love to phone the major players of each side to make comments. Those comments are sometimes manipulated in articles just to stir things up. Don't get caught up in it.
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The thing that gets my blood boiling is the unfare treatment. Native fishermen ofcourse deserve all their right to fish the river for one of the most important resource to them. The stupid part is we all have to sit on the side while we wach the salmon stocks become more depleted. Chance are when we get a chance to wet our lines there wont be much left. I dont understand why they let the bigger monster eat all the salmon he wants and then let the smaller one eat the left overs when we are tryign to protect the salmon.
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Allwaysfishing.............I am disgusted by your genrelization of the first nation brothers on the river with regards to booze....that being said,,,.there are more non nativ yahoo's on the river drinking and smoking on any givin day of the week.......I also read on the report page your total lack of respect for the beak fisherman(your words not mine) but more importent,,,,, I see you are carfully releasing sockeye that are the product of by-catch from flossing,bottom bouncing what ever you care to call it.....it aint selective angling(and no I don't care what a great expereinced angler you profess to be and how you know all the right seems where the springs travel. blha, blha, blha,)..........the bottom line is this..close the river to sockeye all together and restrict all fishing to stationary weights.NO SOCKEYEY.NO PROBLEMS.....NO FLOSSING NO MORE OF THE STUPID DEBATE and all the more easeir for the D.F.O. to police the river for the people that actually break the law(native and non native)
Why the moderators would allow a comment such as yours, which is nothing more than race directed is beond me....
Give your head a shake and keep your personal views to things not regarding fishing to yourself.............
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What are you talking about freddy? Did you even read his post or just the part where the booze comes into play?
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Ya know, I am sick and tired of all the stuff about Natives this, Natives that...the problem isn't just systemic, and there are no silver bullets, and the problem is so deeply systemic, that it honestly can't be fixed. What it all comes down to, is social problems. Ya know what, people can crow all they want about this and that and try to impact on the problems. Fact is that there is ALL ways going to be this problem, because the WRONG leaders are in on it, which perpetuate the system, and the system favours the natives. The constitution and Indian Act provide for it, and so does the Fisheries and Oceans mandate as well. At this point in my opinion the situation borders on hopeless, and I can tell you that FOC and the ministers are GUTLESS, and why would they upset the apple cart? The only way that this is going to get fixed is if us sporties get out there and stand and blow our own horn to raise publicity of the issues, and wee interest groups with no media coverage, conservation groups, etc...are going to fix the problem either unless we as a group unite. I can remember the same BS going on 20 years ago.
What is going on here is that the natives have institutionalized rights, and that overpowers other concerns, like it or not, and YES I agree with the previous post, GREED is the problem, and what the Natives really want is conservation so that their GREED can continue, they can use the system to get what they want, after all, they push it past limits several times a year. And the Natives want other user groups to forego their rights and priviledges because of their Native blood and then masquerade under food and ceremonial purposes, as currently, most all conservation $$$ is spent by the other user groups other than Natives.
That's just one perspective and one large group of opinion holders out there, but all in all, this is one very sad situation. Cheers to Allwaysfishin, and the other guys that have the wherewithal to call spades, spades, and not let "cuz the law says so" to justify the immoral, unconscionable, and abusive actions of other user groups such as the Natives. It's time the laws changed, and something be done, for the problem isn't just Natives, it's apathy by people unwilling to deal with the roots of the problem, just the symptoms--and it is perpetuated by a sects of Native groups which justify their improprieties via their race.
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for the record, as i have stated in other posts.... I am a status card holding member of this countries aboriginal peoples. I have every right to make the comments I do regarding the behavior of "special" aboriginal groups such as some of our local FN fishers.
True, I should not generalize and label ALL cheam and sto'lo the way i have, bad seeds are in all user groups of this fishery and society in general.
It burns me especially hard though that the actions of those FN's from these bands regarding fraser fisheries and thier "right" to the fish is put ahead of the survival of the fish for future runs. Actions like these cause the average joe to develop negetive attitudes towards aboriginal peoples in general.
Say what you will and judge my comments how you may, I'm just one guy, no one special, but like fishin magician says, I will continue to call a spade a spade.
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I was at one of the bars up by hope on Sunday and they drifted a net right in front of the 30 or so of us fishing. One of them had a feather in his hat and he sorta thumbed his nose at us as he scooped up all the fish. As if the the two set nets they had placed above and below us weren't enough.
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Like most recreational fishermen, most First Nations individuals would like to see the resource that they rely on sustainable. The unfortunate part is, when three groups (recreational, commercial, First Nations) compete for the same waters to catch the same fish, the stocks deplete without being noticed.
The problem is not that simple. Shutting it down completely is not the answer. Who are we to tell the First Nations to stop fishing for the fish that they have depended on for thousands of years because of conservation concerns after most of the stocks were originally wiped out by us in the early part of last century?
Please don't suggest that they should harvest by using traditional methods in a canoe too, when there are hundreds of jet boats roaming around during the season. This is a case of traditional values clashing with industrialization. yes well said rodney
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I was out in Burnaby waiting for my son. While parked, I saw a truck driving around with Sockeye and knocking on doors. Looks like a regular type of thing that happens annually around this neighbourhood as they seem to know the people selling the fish. Called the 1800 but I don't think anything was done about it....
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Please don't suggest that they should harvest by using traditional methods in a canoe too, when there are hundreds of jet boats roaming around during the season. This is a case of traditional values clashing with industrialization.
Rod,
I've got to take issue with this statement.
It IS a clash, and THEY have to make a choice. We all had to make a choice as we modernised. (the US for example had to decide that keeping slaves was wrong, despite it being a traditional European value at the time.) The FN have obviously made the choice to try to have their cake and eat it too.
It was fine when they attempted to harvest fish in tradtional vessels, and people died, and there were limits. This meant that not eveyone and his dog went out and harvested the river bare. It was a natural control on the harvest. Now, they have improved safety measures, and better boats with engines, and larger capacity, and it means that even someone's grandmother could get out there and take a whack of fish. This means that they are no longer naturally limited, and that the resource will be depleted AGAIN (Just like we did when we gained motorized boats etc - Someone's got to learn!)
If you want the perks of modern society, you're going to have to give up some "tradition" This is the definition of a culture, not a stagnant definition that never evolves. Non-evolving cultures DIED OUT, and continue to do so.
My $0.02
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money well spent dragon. ;D :D