Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: chris gadsden on April 13, 2005, 04:21:06 PM
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Just have been informed a large drift net was observed on The Fraser River in the Agassiz to Rosedale Bridge area today.
When the infraction was reported first to the FOC offices in Chilliwack and then Mission no contact could be made, only a recording. :(
The reporting party then phoned the FOC ORR line and was told they were aware of the drift net.
To top it off he was told that it was a legal drift net. ::) ??? Does that mean there is legal drift netting year round on the Fraser River now.
The start of a very hot year on the Fraser and I do not mean hot water conditions.
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Chris, don't you know that the Indians need to fish 24/7/365 to feed their families, and meet ceremonial needs ? I say let them fish til they wipe out every salmon and steelhead. What's the point of reporting violations when all you get is a $^$ recording. I no longer report violations ! >:(
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If people quit buying fish from the indians maybe they would not net all the time.
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maybe I'll put a feather in my hat and buy a drift net. or perhaps we should stop calling drift nets an "infraction."
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Have just found out the drift net was legal as the Cheam Band were given a permit by a FOC manager to catch 20 chinooks.
When FOC was questioned who would be monitoring the catch number the response was "they will be telling us when they have their allotted number". :o ???
Once again sounds like a farmer hiring the fox to guard the chicken house and then the farmer is surprised later and wonders why there is no chicken left.
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I object to people calling those gill nets 'drift nets'.
The term Drift Net comes from multi-mile long gill nets deployed by fishermen on the high Ocean in a manner and for a purpose completely different than those little squib nets people see in the Fraser.
It's typical of British Columbians that they prefer to wallow in ignorance~bitch/carp and whine instead of educating themselves.
If it's a legal fishery then that's what it is-if not a few bales of hay dropped in the net will fix the perpetrators good.
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In all respect what term should then be used to describe a net (set net anchored to the shore) and a net that is attached to a boat that is drifting freely down a river or stream?
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"River drift gill net"
From William's Report (Hey I actually read the whole thing ;D ):
For obvious reasons, the driftnets employed in the Fraser River are shorter in length than their ocean counterparts but arguably more effective in that the fish are more concentrated during their river migration. Again, the fish which encounter a net but escape, suffer both physiological stress and net mark injuries. In addition, because of the size selectivity of the gill net, these escapes may have a cumulative effect on the gender ratio of fish which make it to the spawning grounds.
I think the "whine"/complaint here is whether the fishery is legal or not, but that there isn't a non-biased third party observing the fishery to get an accurate count.
Then again, at the same time, one can argue that each recreational angler is not accompanied by a fishery observer when out fishing. Poaching does exist in both groups, the potential significent difference is the amount being poached between the two.
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When FOC was questioned who would be monitoring the catch number the response was "they will be telling us when they have their allotted number". :o ???
We all know that the Cheam Band does not speak with fork tongue ! :-X It's like the police asking the grow op operators to tell them they are growing pot
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In a time of low traffic on the river, I dont see why drift netting should be banned. Let them get their fish as quickly as possible then get the **** outta the water. If they can get their alotment in one drift as opposed to an extended opening then fine; makes monitorring easier
Keep in mind that out commercial fleet doesnt use set/anchored nets...they drift the river too.
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In a time of low traffic on the river, I dont see why drift netting should be banned. Let them get their fish as quickly as possible then get the **** outta the water. .
It would be okay if they obeyed the law and fished only during the openings they are given.
However anyone that fishes the river regulary knows this does not happen and the loss of a major part of last years sockeye run was caused by overfishing as it went on 24/7 night and day by both methods of netting.
As I have said so many times if this goes unchecked much longer the fish will not be able to withstand the pressure and will be gone forever.
Can anyone dispute what happened on the East Coast as greed and poor management by FOC ruined a once wonderful fishery. Do not say it can not happen here as it can and will if things do not change in a hurry. :'( :-[ :(
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oh no here we go again :-X :-X i say no more but i want my 20 salmon too
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I saw them netting on the river today as I drove past on Rosedale Bridge. Before I did that, I noticed a FOC truck on the Kent side. I was so glad to see an enforcement presence, I seriously considered stopping and telling the FOC guys how nice it was to see them; that area being Cheam country and all.
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my question is this
long before gillnets were made availlable to first nations fishers, how exactly did they gain access to chinook, or any other salmon from the fraser in april??
it is a fact that chinook migrate through the fraser system nearly year round, but the peak season when traditional spear fisheries took place years ago was not now, it was late summer.
So, would they have been able to harvest 20 chinook in one afternoon without a gillnet??? I think not.
My advice to all concerned is to join the Fraser Valley Salmon Society and get your voice heard. simple as that.
BE LOUD
I'll add this, I have nothing against food and ceremonial harvest by first nations.
I'm an aboriginal canadian by Metis status, and I absolutely abhor the use of gillnets by FN fishers. give em all a rod and reel and let em go to it, that's a big step up from a spear. I provide for my family quite well every year through hunting and fishing, let them use the same methods to provide for thiers.
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Isn't reserves meant to protect first nation culture and believes? Their way of living isn't it harmony with nature? But with unattanded nets this will lead to over fishing, which leads to waste right?
And synthetic fibre nets really isn't first nations culture if they want to protect their culture shouldn't they be using traditional fishing methods?
I'm just curiouse.
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A friend of mine told me that the government can't get in the way of a societies natural evolution into modern society. By disallowing them to use modern tools, they would be putting up barriers, making them less competative with modern society and happering their societies development.
Frankly, their need for food (on a per person/household level) hasnt changed over the last 100 years. so why are they allowed to harvest (legally and illegally) all those fish?
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Simple. Governments are afraid of them.
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Some further info re yesterday's events that I received this morning.
The netting that started around 7:05 am was illegal .Later in the day, around noon Cheam asked for a "first fish" ceremonial opening as there had been a death in the Band so 20 more chinook were needed via a drift net or whatever the correct term I should be using.
This was granted with some hour restrictions but with a caveat to allow them to continue if they had not caught the 20 chinook by the evening.
Apparently FOC looked for a montor but could not find one but someone on the beach who said he was an acting monitor reported that only 2 fish had been caught. This means the fishery will be going on today and maybe into the weekend.
Apparently a FOC enforcement did respond to the scene but he did not know the opening was legal, talk about communication.
The saga continues.
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Shouldn't the Cheam Band ask permission from DFO prior to commencing fishing ? What happens if there is a birth in the band ? Do they need another 20 fish for "ceremonial purposes"?
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Only 2 !? The Real Canadian Superstore has some "wild" Atlantics for sale. :-X
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<Spraying gasoline on fire> :-[ ;)
Arrived in email not long ago:
Many of you who’ve attended meetings with DFO have heard the song and dance routine about NO money for anything.
With respect to the Cheam Indian Band on the Lower Fraser:
a. Cheam fishermen have fought Fishery Officers with fists, feet and clubs;
b. When Fishery Officers did enforce the law, senior DFO officials suspended them;
c. Cheam poachers operated year-round and sold most of the fish illegally;
d. One Cheam poacher admitted in court that he caught more than 10,000 sockeye and 1,000 chinooks with his setnet in 2000;
e. DFO claims that budget problems prevent the department from doing proper enforcement and stock assessment.
What does this have to do with a concrete washroom?
In September of last year, DFO gave the Cheam Indian Band $20,000 to install two concrete washrooms at Cheam fishing sites. I know this is hard to believe, so here is the excerpt from the DFO/Cheam agreement:
“Improvements to Cheam fishing and Catch Monitoring sites $20,000.00
• Installation of 2 precast washroom facilities at Cheam salmon fishing sites. One facility will be erected at the CFN landing site located on the CFN reserve on the upstream side of the Aggasiz/Rosedale bridge on the southern shore of the Fraser River. The second facility will be erected on the downstream side of the of the Aggasiz/Rosedale Bridge on the southern shore of the Fraser River. Improvements to specific fishing sites including the Cheam catch monitoring station will increase the use of the sites for landing fish and improve the catch monitoring program.”
Not enough money to put gas in a patrol boat, but more than enough to build washrooms for violent poachers.
This was part of a $60,000 grant to the Cheam. In total, DFO gave the Cheam and the Sto:lo more than $800,000 for the 2004/2005 fiscal year. The lobby group, the BC Aboriginal Fisheries Commission received more than $1 million.
Regards,
Phil Eidsvik
BC Fisheries Survival Coalition
406-535 Howe Street
Vancouver, BC
V6C 2Z4
Phone: 604-638-0114
Fax: 604-638-0116
Email: bcfish@shawlink.ca
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Who are the idiots who keeping electing the Liberals year after year? Hopefully this will change when we get our conservative government and they actually make the DFO enforce the law! Imagine that!
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Who are the idiots who keeping electing the Liberals year after year? Hopefully this will change when we get our conservative government and they actually make the DFO enforce the law! Imagine that!
All we'll be doing is trading one group of mealy mouthed idiots for another. :(
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Who are the idiots who keeping electing the Liberals year after year? Hopefully this will change when we get our conservative government and they actually make the DFO enforce the law! Imagine that!
People vote for a particular party for a variety of reasons. Do you think the Conservatives, NDP's, Green, Communists have the guts to take on the Indians. I think not. Sad state of affairs !
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the whole fraser river system should be turned over to the bc government. The feds should give us a grant to hire co's and patrol the fraser. Armed with over 100 officers and auxillary's the fraser and tribs can be patrolled without the federals butting in. Fines would be hefty for violators and arrests would occur more often. Assests would be seized and used to refinance the patrol. After 2 years of no tolerance just maybe we can save the fraser. Someone please pinch me! this is just a dream.
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The Provincial WLAP is no better than the Federal Liberals and the DFO. At least the DFO has a feedback system in the SFAB (Sports Fishing Advisory Boards) that the sports fishermen have some input. It is not always followed, but we have had some influence on openings etc on the Fraser.
The provincial gov't has no such process. They won't listen to the warnings about sea lice from fish pens from people like Alexandra Morton or other world scientists, they have to do their own science and in the meantime the pink and chum smolt run is devastated again this year.
Provincially they also intend to put the Fraser sturgeon on the endangered species list, and a possible provincial bait ban with little or no consultation with sport fishermen.
Our RIGHT TO FISH is being continually threatened without proper science being done. One of the groups that is challenging to protect these rights is the SPORTS FISHING DEFENCE ALLIANCE(SDA). They are heading into court on some very big issues which requires major funding for lawyers and they collect their funding from nickel and dimes in plastic bottles in the sports tackle stores, while governments and FN have seemingly endless funding. Pretty frustrating for the SDA guys who are fighting for our RIGHT TO FISH.
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When are you guys going to figure it out. There ain' t one thing going to stop the natives from doing anything they want. Me thinks, if you keep yapping off about it, the only thing that will change is there will be no or very little sport fishing on the Fraser. As far as BC taking over that, is beyond funny. Gordon don't want no damn fish in the river anyhow. It cost a lot less that way. Look out for a dam coming into your area in the near future. I will bet amost anything it will get worse before it gets better. But Oh, buy the way good luck!!!!!!!
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When are you guys going to figure it out. There ain' t one thing going to stop the natives from doing anything they want. Me thinks, if you keep yapping off about it, the only thing that will change is there will be no or very little sport fishing on the Fraser. As far as BC taking over that, is beyond funny. Gordon don't want no damn fish in the river anyhow. It cost a lot less that way. Look out for a dam coming into your area in the near future. I will bet amost anything it will get worse before it gets better. But Oh, buy the way good luck!!!!!!!
If it was not for the efforts of organizations like the Fraser Valley Salmon Society, Sport Fishing Defense Alliance, British Columbia Federation Of Drift Fishers and many other organizations you and all the other recreational fishers would not be enjoying all the fishing opportunities on the Fraser River and other rivers that we presently have.
Mark my work these organizations and all their dedicated volunteers are not going to lay down and let these fishing hard won opportunities slip away.
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Chris.Many years ago I belonged to one of the oldest Fish and Game clubs in BC. I won't go into the different projects that we participated in. The list would be too long. All we did was put off the inevitable. As far as enjoyable, thats why I left that area. I saw way to much abuse and lack of enforcement every day I fished. If you want to thank the Fraser Valley Salmon Society thats up to you. There the ones that got the Sockeye open for sport fishing, thats really enjoyable, eh! But the guides love them. If you can name ten great things that are still in effect from any of these great organizations I would love to hear them.
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Thanks for your post fishherron. To start I always try to respect others people's opinions as in most cases everyone has good points that can be made on any subject be it fishing or otherwise.
As I started the FVSS many years ago (20) I along with many other dedicated volunteers have been involved in getting all species of salmon open on the Fraser River and many other local rivers. I will even say that the hard work of many executive members of the FVSS led to other salmon openings on rivers throughout British Columbia. Our initial success was to get the Fraser open once again for the retention of adult chinooks after they were closed to the recreational sector for a few years. To me that was unfair as all other user groups were harvesting them while the ones in those days with the least impact sat on the river bank.
(The next pargragraph may seem a bit sappy to some and off topic but I will leave it in even though maybe I should delete it.)
Personally I treasure all the good times bar fishing with family and friends since the chinook fishery was reopened, to me they are priceless times. The cementing of relationships made with my two sons during years of camping trips while bar fishing over their developing years was something that I will hold dear to my heart for the rest of my life. I just have to pull out a video and watch once again relive the great times we had together. I never get tired of watching once again the enjoyment and excitement they got from landing a beautiful chinook that was two days from the ocean.
In my mind all the work to get a chinook fishery once again was well worth it for I truly feel without the formation of the FVSS we and many others would not have every experienced a freshwater chinook salmon fishery on the Fraser River ever again. Everytime I hook into a chinook while bar fishing I think, would I be out here enjoying nature and good friends if it was not for the FVSS.
Yes the FVSS was the ones that lobbied the government to get a sockeye opening that was successful a few years back and I was part of it. Everyone knows my stand on the sockeye fishing so no need to bring that up as both sides of this issue has been debated several times on this and other forums.
I now will direct you to the FVSS web site at http://members.shaw.ca/fraservalleysalmonsociety/ that will answer some of your and others other questions I am sure.
I now look forward to the first of May opening for chinooks on the Fraser River, I can hear that bell ringing now, how sweet a sound it is. ;D ;D
Thanks Fraser Valley Salmon Society.
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In total, DFO gave the Cheam and the Sto:lo more than $800,000 for the 2004/2005 fiscal year. The lobby group, the BC Aboriginal Fisheries Commission received more than $1 million.
Break the law and get rewarded...rediculous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >:(
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Thanks for your post fishherron. To start I always try to respect others people's opinions as in most cases everyone has good points that can be made on any subject be it fishing or otherwise.
As I started the FVSS many years ago (20) I along with many other dedicated volunteers have been involved in getting all species of salmon open on the Fraser River and many other local rivers. I will even say that the hard work of many executive members of the FVSS led to other salmon openings on rivers throughout British Columbia. Our initial success was to get the Fraser open once again for the retention of adult chinooks after they were closed to the recreational sector for a few years. To me that was unfair as all other user groups were harvesting them while the ones in those days with the least impact sat on the river bank.
(The next pargragraph may seem a bit sappy to some and off topic but I will leave it in even though maybe I should delete it.)
Personally I treasure all the good times bar fishing with family and friends since the chinook fishery was reopened, to me they are priceless times. The cementing of relationships made with my two sons during years of camping trips while bar fishing over their developing years was something that I will hold dear to my heart for the rest of my life. I just have to pull out a video and watch once again relive the great times we had together. I never get tired of watching once again the enjoyment and excitement they got from landing a beautiful chinook that was two days from the ocean.
In my mind all the work to get a chinook fishery once again was well worth it for I truly feel without the formation of the FVSS we and many others would not have every experienced a freshwater chinook salmon fishery on the Fraser River ever again. Everytime I hook into a chinook while bar fishing I think, would I be out here enjoying nature and good friends if it was not for the FVSS.
Yes the FVSS was the ones that lobbied the government to get a sockeye opening that was successful a few years back and I was part of it. Everyone knows my stand on the sockeye fishing so no need to bring that up as both sides of this issue has been debated several times on this and other forums.
I now will direct you to the FVSS web site at http://members.shaw.ca/fraservalleysalmonsociety/ that will answer some of your and others other questions I am sure.
I now look forward to the first of May opening for chinooks on the Fraser River, I can hear that bell ringing now, how sweet a sound it is. ;D ;D
Thanks Fraser Valley Salmon Society.
Oh Chris. Not that I don,t have great memorys also, on the Bowmen bar. The Vedder also where I caught Rainbows to two lbs on rotten wood. I think you missed or ingnored my point.
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I did neither as I understand perfectly where you are coming from.
I just attempted to point out the positive of what the FVSS has done the last 21 years to retain a type a fishery I and a number of other enjoy very much.
Also I might add, 3 spin off organizations from the FVSS, the Chilliwack River Action Comittee, The Sport Fishing Defense Alliance and the most recent the Chilliwack/Vedder River Cleanup Coalition Coalition have done in my mind a lot of positives as well. A number of the key initial organizers of these groups came from the FVSS excutive and members.
The SDA has done a lot to preserve fishing opportunities as well for the recreational angler and have been a watch dog to try and keep FOC accountable for their actions or inactions.
CRAC and CVRCC have both worked hard in preserving fish habitat and keeping the Chilliwack/Vedder River clean. If one had the opportunity to sit in on any one of these three organizations meetings you would be hard pressed to meet a more dedicated group of volunteers doing the best they can to preserve our precious fish stocks and the environment they live in.
I hate to think where we would be if we did not have these 4 first class organizers doing the best they can. We and the fish would be a lot worse off, I would bet my pension on that.
I will stop here as I am doing a good job of hyjacking my own thread. ;D
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Fishherron
In my mind, it seems damned if you do, or damned if you dont.
The FVSS kept fishing opportunites open for us and also work to conserve. The groups that spung from the FVSS work the same goals.
Sure the sockeye floss fest is, in my eyes and apparently yours as well, is a 'negative' part of the fishing opportunities created by the FVSS that as a whole we all enjoy. How I see it though is that it is better to HAVE the right to fish and have a few 'bad apples' (poor description) then to have nothing at all. At least now we can all fish and, I hope, educate people how to utilize the right many have worked so hard to create.
You cant win it perfectly, but my hat goes off to those who hung around and stuck with it. They are very frustrated with the negative aspects and lack of enforcement and all the rest, but work hard all the same as angling is worth so much; ranging from food on a table, econmics, environmental stability and even spiritually.
Think its bad now how sports anglers and the fish themselves are treated? Just think what it could be like if nobody (FVSS, SDA etc) did not exist.
Now Im not sure if I missed the point on the FVSS as you asked. Please let me know if so and make it more clear what you are getting at.
Quick and respectfully intended asked question(s) for you. You asked for ten good things the FVSS has done in a manner that you would be surprised to hear one good thing.
What is your opinion on what the solution could/should be for angling opportunity and conservation? What was going on that was so good you didnt stick with it way back before the FVSS was created? Why was the FVSS necessary to open up fishing opportunities for anglers when your group was around?
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Fishherron
In my mind, it seems damned if you do, or damned if you don't.
The FVSS kept fishing opportunities open for us and also work to conserve. The groups that spung from the FVSS work the same goals.
Sure the sockeye floss fest is, in my eyes and apparently yours as well, is a 'negative' part of the fishing opportunities created by the FVSS that as a whole we all enjoy. How I see it though is that it is better to HAVE the right to fish and have a few 'bad apples' (poor description) then to have nothing at all. At least now we can all fish and, I hope, educate people how to utilize the right many have worked so hard to create.
You cant win it perfectly, but my hat goes off to those who hung around and stuck with it. They are very frustrated with the negative aspects and lack of enforcement and all the rest, but work hard all the same as angling is worth so much; ranging from food on a table, econmics, environmental stability and even spiritually.
Think its bad now how sports anglers and the fish themselves are treated? Just think what it could be like if nobody (FVSS, SDA etc) did not exist.
Now Im not sure if I missed the point on the FVSS as you asked. Please let me know if so and make it more clear what you are getting at.
Quick and respectfully intended asked question(s) for you. You asked for ten good things the FVSS has done in a manner that you would be surprised to hear one good thing.
What is your opinion on what the solution could/should be for angling opportunity and conservation? What was going on that was so good you didnt stick with it way back before the FVSS was created? Why was the FVSS necessary to open up fishing opportunities for anglers when your group was around? answer to 2;40 sorry this got mived in with your quote. Not that good at putors. Maybe Rod can fix it. S---t, Maybe I am just to old. I along with other commercial guys,sport guys and gals have done enhancement work on the sunshine coast and lower mainland.I Am still doing my share I think, as I am having the creek that runs through my property graveled by the dfo this fall. Hoping that more Coho will return. Last fall I saw eight spawner's. Over the years I have seen a lot more take then put back. The FVSS open up a whole new fishery. Almost like a gold rush. And we all know what happens when the gold runs out. This could be a renewable fishery you may ask? But you and I both know that ain't never going to happen under the ongoing situation that exists on the river. Ask the people moving in up and around the Adams River what they want, land or fish.When the clean waters goes so do the fish. How many little streams in the lower mainland did we try to save? Every year they just keep getting worse. Yeah we didn't do much before FVSS came on the scene. Well at least it don,t look like now.
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First off, I want to thank the people who take the time and energy to post valuable information about our fish and their state of affairs here in B.C. Most of us do not have the time or knowledge of where to look this info. up. As long as it is true and accurate, the value of it is priceless. Most of us seem to share the belief that our wildlife and lands are most precious to us all and are worth whatever fight it may take to save them.
We can rant and rave, and turn a blind eye, if chosen to. It is the easiest thing to do. It is the people who take a stand and make others take notice who will inevitably have the most effect on a positive change for the future. These people will also most probably have a great number of obstacles in their way and many frustrations which can immensely deter and detract a person from following his/her hart and sole in battling this much needed fight. The people who chose not to give up or forget are the ones who can save us and our nature from these horrible state of affairs.
It is also a very realistic fact that without a government who cares, acts, and enforces in natures best interest, the fight is going to be very very hard and drawn out. I've said it before, MONEY is the largest contributing factor. No matter how we look at it, from every angle. It comes down to this. Why doesn't the government want to fight the Cheam or Stolo's or other bands? Do you think the gov. wants to foot the bill on more Native needs. The natives are creating an illegal supply of huge amounts of money for themselves. A fight would cost huge money, as well as paying for all of the related aftermath. I don't mean violence, I am referring to the economic problems. There is such a degraded relationship between the natives and non-natives. We must share a common goal of fixing these dire straights or it will get much worse very soon. It is obvious to me and many others that the goal of fixing this is very one sided. There must be a very dramatic stand by our governments in order to deal with these problems. The native have without a doubt been treated horribly by previous governments, and the "whiteman", but this is neither here nor there. It is time to step up and fess up.
A good friend of mine is a commercial fisherman in Maple Ridge. His uncle, also a commercial fisherman was moving his boat at their float on the Fraser a couple of days ago. While he was moving the boat only a couple of hundred meters, the Fisheries pulled up along side him and demanded to see the holding tanks and gear. Of course he obliged and let them do their thing. They thourowly searched everything, looking disappointed they didn't find any illegally caught springs. The comm. fisherman told the fisheries they might want to check the three native boats who were drift netting over the past three days just above their float. The Fisheries fellas had no comment to that.
It is good to see there is enforcement on the river. But are they after the wrong people? Come on guys, grow some damn balls allready. I do not know for a fact how many openings the natives have had over the last couple of weeks. But I do know for a fact, three native boats have been drift netting the Maple Ridge/Mission are of the Fraser on and off for the past couple of weeks. There has been the legal test boat as well, but I am not talking about that boat. If they are illegal boats then this is just crazy. It is only April and we're off to a horrible start. I did not know about these boats at their time of fishing, so I could not report it. I was just told about it last night. This comm. fishing family has completely given up about reporting native violations. There are four generations of commercial fisherman to have fished the river on that sight, and they have seen it all. They have at no previous time been more disgusted with how the way things are on the Fraser now.