Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: fishtruck on September 08, 2015, 07:38:47 AM
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Was at A&N yesterday, saw someone with a handful of bouncing betties. Went to ask sales clerk who was looking after that transaction whether they try to discourage the sale of obvious bottom bouncing gear because of DFO concerns. Answer( rather rudely) that if there wasn't a restriction and until there was a restriction they would keep selling any and all types of gear for any method of fishing. My question is , ethically speaking, should these stores try to discourage selling bottom bouncing gear? or am I barking up the wrong tree here
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Was at A&N yesterday, saw someone with a handful of bouncing betties. Went to ask sales clerk who was looking after that transaction whether they try to discourage the sale of obvious bottom bouncing gear because of DFO concerns. Answer( rather rudely) that if there wasn't a restriction and until there was a restriction they would keep selling any and all types of gear for any method of fishing. My question is , ethically speaking, should these stores try to discourage selling bottom bouncing gear? or am I barking up the wrong tree here
I think you should go to every tackle store and bark at them too if you have time !!!!!!!
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Not everyone who buys Betties uses them for flossing. They definitely serve a purpose in my boat and a few other people's boats as well! Don't paint everyone with the same brush.You are indeed barking up the wrong tree!
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How about a federally funded bouncing betty registry?
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Sorry if I offended anyone. Should have been more clear on my original post. Should have been" should they politely inquire as to whether the client was planning on using it to bottom bounce in the Fraser at this time" ??( Would that have been too nosy)
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Sorry if I offended anyone. Should have been more clear on my original post. Should have been" should they politely inquire as to whether the client was planning on using it to bottom bounce in the Fraser at this time" ??( Would that have been too nosy)
It is not the retail stores' responsibility to question the consumer. It is the angler who should read and understand the regulation before heading out.
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Sea-Run in Coquitlam stopped selling them. I was in there picking up some jigs and overhead someone asking for them. They told them due to current selective fishing methods on the fraser, they were not selling them.. +1 Sea-Run
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--I use the Betty's for drop shot fishing in still waters.
--Also on a T turn swivel for trolling.. again in still waters.
--I don't think it would hurt the store to put a note near them about current regulation enforcement. Doesn't hurt to give out useful information.
--Could lead into sales of alternative gear for those who are not sure.
--It is not going to stop anyone that know's better
--Ethically speaking if PETA had their way there would be no sale of any fishing gear
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I think we have to respect a tackle shop as a business that has to look out for their own well-being and profits. However, I also think that all fishermen should be encourage proper practices and therefore the clerks themselves, who I have to assume are also sport fishermen, should do their part as a member of our community and as you said "politely inquire" about products like that in order to discourage their misuse.
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Good on Sea-Run. I was not aware that they stopped selling flossing tools.
To everyone else who wants to buy them for other purposes or who thinks that bottom bouncing (not flossing) is a perfectly viable method - sometimes you have to accept a limitation on your freedoms for the greater good. If it stops flossing would you give up bottom bouncing?
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If it stops flossing would you give up bottom bouncing?
No, it's funny that the rec fishers trash one another while the real threat is completely ignored... I almost think DFO likes this situation as it takes pressure away from the commies and makes for a easy reason to shut the river down for FN. I see less complaints about the FN like they did before but now target the bouncers... Just my observations and I don't spend much time out there..
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Make using lead weights illegal in the Fraser. They are illegal in Canadian National Parks already.
Tungston only. High price might chase many of these neanderthals away.
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Was at A&N yesterday, saw someone with a handful of bouncing betties. Went to ask sales clerk who was looking after that transaction whether they try to discourage the sale of obvious bottom bouncing gear because of DFO concerns. Answer( rather rudely) that if there wasn't a restriction and until there was a restriction they would keep selling any and all types of gear for any method of fishing. My question is , ethically speaking, should these stores try to discourage selling bottom bouncing gear? or am I barking up the wrong tree here
Follow your logic we should close all stores that sell alcohol. Because some people drink and drive,
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No, it's funny that the rec fishers trash one another while the real threat is completely ignored... I almost think DFO likes this situation as it takes pressure away from the commies and makes for a easy reason to shut the river down for FN. I see less complaints about the FN like they did before but now target the bouncers... Just my observations and I don't spend much time out there..
X2, Was out lower Fraser Saturday and Sunday. Saw 7 people casting spoons and 20+ nets. From time to time people had to stop casting because nets were so close to shore.
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Follow your logic we should close all stores that sell alcohol. Because some people drink and drive,
I said "Discourage" twice, never did I say close it down. The idea was maybe the stores might be willing to educate and inform, not play cops. There will always be those that will do whatever they want, but if we say it in an informative manner, hopefully some will make the right decisions with their new found knowledge
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No, it's funny that the rec fishers trash one another while the real threat is completely ignored... I almost think DFO likes this situation as it takes pressure away from the commies and makes for a easy reason to shut the river down for FN. I see less complaints about the FN like they did before but now target the bouncers... Just my observations and I don't spend much time out there..
It sounds like you missed the point. Some people "legitimately" use a technique called bottom bouncing to target Chinook or Steelhead in deep, fast pools. It uses a short leader.
These people get upset when people talk about banning bottom bouncing.
My point is that to eliminate flossing we would possibly need to make this fishing style illegal as well.
Since you seem to support flossing this discussion is not for you. The flossing discussion has nothing to do with natives or commies.
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Follow your logic we should close all stores that sell alcohol. Because some people drink and drive,
If everyone that bought alcohol was drinking and driving, then you absolutely should close all stores that sell alcohol.
Or at least develop a restrictive method that prevents illegal use of alcohol.
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Follow your logic we should close all stores that sell alcohol. Because some people drink and drive,
--Actually I think that is a good analogy...
--Where we sell alcohol there are signs about not drinking and driving... also advertising about safe use.. etc.
--I have to agree with fishtruck after he explainded his idea of education vs banning.
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Follow your logic we should close all stores that sell alcohol. Because some people drink and drive,
Follow your logic tackle shops should refuse sale to anyone they believe is going to bottom bounce
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I still think the whole debate is still so subjective..
For me harvesting sockeye when its open is great fun, while also being outside at the same time and providing a delicious meal.
So for me I think removing BBing gear when socks aren't open is a good idea.
But for others they would say ban it entirely, which is their opinion. Others would say tackle shops can sell whatever they like, when they like as long as they're not breaking any rules. We all are allowed to our own thoughts and opinions.
However, it is great to see that Sea-Run is voicing their opinion and not selling BB gear.
This debate will never end until it is banned entirely...
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I'm going to give a +1 to Sea-Run on their opinion of selling the gear. For many reasons, including this one, they are my go to store.
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Follow your logic we should close all stores that sell alcohol. Because some people drink and drive,
Talk about hyperbole.
If the amount of people drank to much due to alcohol was equal to the percentage of BBers to ethical fishermen during salmon season, they'd start prohibition again.
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To put my money where my mouth is, will give sea-run my business from now on
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Sea-Run isn't the only store that has pulled bouncing betties off of there shelves. I was fishing with employees from High Water and Pacific Angler and both had said they had pulled them.
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X2, Was out lower Fraser Saturday and Sunday. Saw 7 people casting spoons and 20+ nets. From time to time people had to stop casting because nets were so close to shore.
. Say no to net fishing!
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It sounds like you missed the point. Some people "legitimately" use a technique called bottom bouncing to target Chinook or Steelhead in deep, fast pools. It uses a short leader.
These people get upset when people talk about banning bottom bouncing.
My point is that to eliminate flossing we would possibly need to make this fishing style illegal as well.
Since you seem to support flossing this discussion is not for you. The flossing discussion has nothing to do with natives or commies.
No I would not give up bottom bouncing. I BB all time... Spinners mostly... Lol and rarely the Fraser.
I have little issue with Flossing the Fraser... If the natives can net, the commies can net, why can Joe blow use a method that saves time and is more effective? Everyone else can.... If there were no commies/fn there would be more fish = better fishing but they have run the stocks down to the point we have little opportunity
Long ago I met some guys snagging (real snagging) on the river. One of their friends asked why they didn't do this on the vedder. The snaggers response was you didn't need to.... If people didn't need to floss they probably wouldn't... The question is why do they feel they need to... Fix that problem or continue chasing the rabbit..
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Wow. Doja, I'm a little sad to see a grown person still act like a child.
Your "If they can do it, so should I." attitude is extremely like my 2 year old son. I think your entitlement has blinded you.
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I have to agree with Flytech. Where does this "entitlement" come from? I've seen it many times on so many posts on this forum and others. I completely understand that recreational "flossing" would have far less impact on the fish compared to the commercial or native nets. But to use "non-selective" methods on the Fraser, though not currently illegal, is certainly unethical in my book - considering that DFO has specifically requested people not to engage in such methods. As for using a "method that saves time and is more effective" - go to the local grocery store and buy your pinks for goodness sakes. They're going cheap! And you don't have to line up at first light to get your spot. ;D I for one don't fish so I can catch the most fish in the least amount of time. I go for the enjoyment and learning experience. Catching fish is the icing on the cake.
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Wow. Doja, I'm a little sad to see a grown person still act like a child.
Your "If they can do it, so should I." attitude is extremely like my 2 year old son. I think your entitlement has blinded you.
Lol, you just showed who the child is.... Nice pic of your dad as a avatar lol.
Where did I say I belive this moto (I even used the word they, lol) ... Man you guys sure demonstrate a low IQ.... I'm mearly quoting what people flossing have said and trying to understand their point of veiw... As said I don't fish the Fraser much if at all...
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Talk about hyperbole.
If the amount of people drank to much due to alcohol was equal to the percentage of BBers to ethical fishermen during salmon season, they'd start prohibition again.
Hahahaha - love it when someone condemns one line as hyperbole and then delivers a zinger themselves! ;D
Equating the social ills from alcohol abuse to flossing just takes the cake man.
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I have little issue with Flossing the Fraser... If the natives can net, the commies can net, why can Joe blow use a method that saves time and is more effective? Everyone else can.... If there were no commies/fn there would be more fish = better fishing but they have run the stocks down to the point we have little opportunity
I was referring to this portion of your post.
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Wow. Doja, I'm a little sad to see a grown person still act like a child.
Your "If they can do it, so should I." attitude is extremely like my 2 year old son. I think your entitlement has blinded you.
Question for you tech. Are you describing Doja or yourself? I seem to remember you calling out the Chilliwack slayer, you know the big guy that smashes boulders with his fists. I think there where tickets being sold and it was supposed to be scheduled on PPV! Oh wait a second I got this all wrong. That was the Boxing Day Derby! Sorry about that guys just a little side tracked, carry on!
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I was referring to this portion of your post.
I agree with doja. Fifteen plus years of foofaraw over flossing while other sectors pull sockeye and pinks out of the river and the strait in the millions would leave any reasonable non-angler baffled. As for childish - internet outing, harassment and name calling fits that like a glove. This ethics stuff is a scam. It has noting to do with ethics, it's a battle over resources - who gets what section of the river and how close is the next guy. I've fished in the lower mainland for over 50 years and salmon fishing was and is always a mess when the big runs come in and some 'ethical' angler is always bitching simply because they feel crowded out. There is nothing else to it.
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Its always a tough call, I hear guys say they wont bounce, but have no problem buying a netted salmon from a Save On or Natives... :o
As far as a fishing method, if the soxs arent open, then use a selective method to avoid the problem.
On an off topic I had to laugh when a group of obvious inexperienced fisherman showed up on the tidal Fraser yesterday with bouncing gear and absolutely struggled to figure out why it wasn't working :D
Nothing like casting and retrieving a 3 oz betty for a couple hours ;D
Some times its not ignorance...just inexperience.
As far as the original subject, just a statement at the till with the regulations would be fine, it is a business. Alcohol and cigarettes are a bad thing too but are sold...but just why are there parking lots in pubs and bars again?
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I was referring to this portion of your post.
I do think Joe blow has a fair argument... Nothing more... Are you saying you don't strive to improve your fishing skills? Of course you do and you get great joy from it. So does floss er Joe, lol. Maybe you are smarter than he is and can deploy better methods but he is still learning and improving in his own way and he probably finds joy in it...
The point is if you want him to change his ways understanding why he does what he does is important.
I also have a hard time wrapping my head around buying fish from boats that history has clearly demonstrated as destroying stocks as "ethical"...
I also remember starting on my own many years ago and the non-flossing crowd was very unhelpful and vs the floss ers who were very accommodating to helping me learn and sharing the run.... I try to be helpful with info to those who seek it. But the Jeannie's out of the bottle now... The only change u could see that could come is from showing/sharing a alternative way but not all will want to...
Do those warnings on smokes really help.... No, lol
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Wow, so many topics in one thread. To answer the original question; no, stores should not try to tell people what to buy. If a person has questions about what is productive, or legal, then yes a store should try its best to create an informed customer. But if someone walks in and knows what they want they should be able to buy it. Plus, if a guy really wants to bottom bounce there are several ways to create your own weights. Many of which people would lose their tops over if they were banned.
As for the issue of flossing and the regulations, I do not think the DFO should dictate how sport fishers should fish when they allow other user groups that have a much larger impact to have free reign. Why not say fish wheels only, or fish traps only. They are effective and allow easy release of non target species. Sport fishers cannot have an impact on stocks in systems as large as the Fraser. Blaming them, and controlling them is nothing but a publicity stunt.
As for the issue of Flossers and other fisherman. To me it is a simple, why does a person fish. Does a person fish to put meat on the table or does a person fish for entertainment. I fish for entertainment. I love going to the river, setting up my bar rig, having a wobbly pop and hanging with friends, casting spinners to schools of pinks trying to see how many I can hook, watching a Coho jump and throw the hook. Smile every time. Then there are the guys who fish to put meat on the table. They want to know where there food came from, and know they had a hand it putting it there. A very effective way of doing this is on flossing. If they take there limit and leave I have no problem with it. They bought their license, bought their gear, put their time in and have as much right to those fish as I do.
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^ I have to agree. Why are these hooks in the water in the first place...To eat, for sport, or both. If we all cared about the salmon that much could we not just walk down to the river to bask in the glorious return of our 'sacred resources'...well its not this way and it never will be. To completely deny and even blame a single method or mentality on the decline of salmonid populations is more of an appeal to emotion than actual substance. We must account for all the impacts on this multifaceted issue if that is indeed what we are trying to get at here and also weight them accordingly...A rough estimate would put fishing of any single hook and rod method well below many factors...Remember it only effects the ones coming back, and not the ones that could've come back to spawn.
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Good points guys - I'm not going to argue with the "bigger picture" and I'm not condoning DFO's decisions now or in the past. Nor was I even attempting to imply that a single method was resulting in the decline of the fish. Furthermore, I wasn't speaking from the point of view of the general public. As sports fishers, we all have a responsibility to be aware of the regulations and I believe we should be adhering to DFO's requests regardless of the impact on the stocks. Flossing is not a good thing for the sockeye that are moving through for which there were no openings at all for the commies, and no recent openings for natives (AFAIK), even if the impact is relatively small. I guess what I'm saying is two negatives do not equal a positive. Again, when I hear about "Joe" just wanting his share compared to the commercial and first nations fisheries, I hear a sense of "entitlement". That's all. Is the fact that "Joe" doesn't know any better an excuse? Maybe for "Joe" himself in the short term. But not for me, and I'd like to believe that many of you as experienced sport fishers would feel the same. But "Joe" is within the law - I'll give him that. It doesn't mean that I think he's being ethical - in fact, if he knows what he's doing, then he is not.
Here's another way to look at it. How many times have you seen people (who are new or maybe not) beach their fish - flopping on the rocks, only to be kicked back into the river? Do you agree with that? The impact on the stocks from that behaviour is relatively small compared to the commercial and native nets. Of course this behaviour is not acceptable (at least I hope you agree with me on that one). But if your going to use the argument of "relative impact" on the fish, then this would be a similar situation - although abusing fish is illegal while flossing is "discouraged".
As for the stores, I would encourage that they do not sell the flossing gear if they know what it's going to be used for. However, I wouldn't openly criticize them for doing so as it is well within the law. But the question is much more complex than a simple yes or no answer.
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So what you are saying is its immoral, unethical and a ticket to hell for Joe Blow to go kill two fish after driving 300km round trip and pouring hundreds in tackle and licences? Yet somehow it's perfectly normal to allow boats by the hundreds, hauling several thosand fish at time of which many threatened stocks are squished to death? And that goes on every season to benefit a small group of seasonal fishers and MOSTLY the large grocery corporations like Safeway, Loblaw etc.
Why is sponsoring big business seen as perfectly normal to people like you? Well I guess you believe blindly in the establishment and since the Fraser stocks have been run down for many years now many people can't imagine it being any other way.
I don't support flossing, snagging and abusing fish, I don't practise and endorse it but I have no problem if someone put all the hard work to kill their two and go home.
You talk about entitlement, again why are save-on and superstore more entitled to a natural resourse that is a national treasure and we all have the right to defend it, not different than dredging pipelines trough favourite parks and rivers, you'd like to have your opinion heard.
Of course I'm not stupid and realise the netting is here to stay till the bitter end, but it gets me when cocky, oh sorry "passionate" anglers start ripping someone faces of because they killed 10-20 socks every few seasons.
Cheers
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"But the question is much more complex than a simple yes or no answer. "
Much bigger. We have people who were raised to be greedy, lazy, one sighted, and as such look for the shortest route to a outcome. Laws haven't been shown to really work all that well there, and as said before I think DFO likes the current situation. Social pressure has always been one of the better tools (I think) if used properly but it is often applied in a improper way (calling people a 2 year old, lol) generating poor results and conflict. Maybe shops/the concerned community should organize barfing days or something to encourage participants to fish using different methods they have not used before with proper instruction/guidance with the added bonus of being part of a community which is always funner!!! I think people being social animals would be open to hanging with a bunch of people learning and having fun while also catching fish... This is how most of us learned to fish (from others) but it's funny when people DON'T want to share with others (I see it often, more with the older crowed) ... The old saying you can't force someone to do something they don't want to do but you can certainly encourage him via several methods. Those flossing generally are not part of the community... Why is that? And what can we do to bring them into the community? I think success lays somewhere around here... Also the bigger and more organized the community the more pull it has... But it first hast to mature... Then Put/keep more fish in the river! Lol
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This is a very simple question: Is flossing fishing?
The answer has to be no.
Since it is not fishing it must be treated like commercial fishing (i.e. harvesting). A flosser must have a commercial fishing licence and it won't be worth your effort to floss. Nets are more efficient.
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This is a very simple question: Is flossing fishing?
The answer has to be no.
Since it is not fishing it must be treated like commercial fishing (i.e. harvesting). A flosser must have a commercial fishing licence and it won't be worth your effort to floss. Nets are more efficient.
Spear fishing is "fishing", lol
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I still can't understand why is private big corporations entitled to a natural resourse that is one BC's landmarks but regular Joe is a criminal for killing his two? Why you can't harvest your two fish but the gill nets are fine scooping everything that moves including threatened stocks? Humans have been hunter-gatherers since the dawn of days, and now that's frowned upon, but a modern, deadly effective netting of the most important BC river is a top priority?
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Although I have a.problem with some commercial practices.
There also churns a short sighted logic.
In reading some of these posts I am to believe that only those that are fortunate to be able to SPORTFISH should have the luxury of eating their catch.
By that logic only those that.grow their own Potatoes and raise their own cattle should be able to eat fries with their burger.
Can't have a house unless you own your own forest.
Fishing is a big part of our economy and that economy is the reason most of us are here.
Sure there needs to be changes in how we do things but it is far more than Safeway and Superstore that benefit from this resource.
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Speaking for myself only, the reason why I think flossing is such a touchy topic is that, it's such a socially deviant practice. When we fish, we hope to abide by the same social contract that we share with other fishers. We conduct ourselves in a socially acceptable manner regarding how to fish. Along comes the flossing who breaks that contract, a contract that we're trying to upholding. It's similar to all of us standing in line to access some service, and comes along someone who goes to the front of the line and butts in. We would feel annoy to say the least.
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So what you are saying is its immoral, unethical and a ticket to hell for Joe Blow to go kill two fish after driving 300km round trip and pouring hundreds in tackle and licences? Yet somehow it's perfectly normal to allow boats by the hundreds, hauling several thosand fish at time of which many threatened stocks are squished to death? And that goes on every season to benefit a small group of seasonal fishers and MOSTLY the large grocery corporations like Safeway, Loblaw etc.
Why is sponsoring big business seen as perfectly normal to people like you? Well I guess you believe blindly in the establishment and since the Fraser stocks have been run down for many years now many people can't imagine it being any other way.
I don't support flossing, snagging and abusing fish, I don't practise and endorse it but I have no problem if someone put all the hard work to kill their two and go home.
You talk about entitlement, again why are save-on and superstore more entitled to a natural resourse that is a national treasure and we all have the right to defend it, not different than dredging pipelines trough favourite parks and rivers, you'd like to have your opinion heard.
Of course I'm not stupid and realise the netting is here to stay till the bitter end, but it gets me when cocky, oh sorry "passionate" anglers start ripping someone faces of because they killed 10-20 socks every few seasons.
Cheers
No, I was not saying that at all. Please read my post carefully before implying that I'm a "cocky, or passionate". I certainly was not ripping someone for killing 10 - 20 sockeye every few seasons. Nor was I supporting industry and the superstores. In fact, I have harvested sockeye when it was open (e.g. last year). What I disagree with is when people potentially floss sockeye during a closure for that species.
If I've misinterpreted your post, please disregard my comments.
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Question for you tech. Are you describing Doja or yourself? I seem to remember you calling out the Chilliwack slayer, you know the big guy that smashes boulders with his fists. I think there where tickets being sold and it was supposed to be scheduled on PPV! Oh wait a second I got this all wrong. That was the Boxing Day Derby! Sorry about that guys just a little side tracked, carry on!
Ha ha ha. That big muscle man!? I can be a total idiot at times. But no one is perfect.
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Hahahaha - love it when someone condemns one line as hyperbole and then delivers a zinger themselves! ;D
Equating the social ills from alcohol abuse to flossing just takes the cake man.
That was the point.
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By that logic only those that.grow their own Potatoes and raise their own cattle should be able to eat fries with their burger.
Can't have a house unless you own your own forest.
Fishing is a big part of our economy and that economy is the reason most of us are here.
Sure there needs to be changes in how we do things but it is far more than Safeway and Superstore that benefit from this resource.
pretty irrelevant example - potatos are not threatened species and are far from being extinct as opposed to ALL salmon species and steelhead which are all in decline.
Yes, if potatoes get so rare and hard to make than you should definitely start considering alternatives to your burger fries!
"Can't have a house unless you own your own forest."
i had a chuckle on that, you are actually exactly right about this - I don't see my generation able to afford to own, so yes it's just as impossible as owning a forest. Actually for 100k you can buy some forest patch, but not a house LOL
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Our local tackle shops have been taking a beating because of internet shopping and local sockeye gear sales were a great shot of income for them. Sadly for them this fishery is going to come to an end soon. Yes, we still find ways to accept bbing for sockeye and not for other species - well that's going to change over the next few years. This practice of bbing will come to an end. Of course some will never comply.
Hopefully fishermen will transition to other means of catching sockeye and other salmon - hopefully we all do this before all freshwater salmon fishing comes to a close.
We'll see - I have faith that we can change but is it already too late for the salmon.
Bouncing Betties and long leaders don't kill salmon - rogue fishermen do.
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Spear fishing is "fishing", lol
spear fishing, bow fishing, net fishing and jigging (a form of snagging) are all permitted either fresh, tidal or both. It's not a leap to accept flossing for sockeye.
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Hahahaha - love it when someone condemns one line as hyperbole and then delivers a zinger themselves! ;D
Equating the social ills from alcohol abuse to flossing just takes the cake man.
That was the point.
on the list of things in the world that require some serious ethical discussion, flossing is very low down on the list IMO. Take the current air war against ISIS - our Prime Minister states one solution to the concurrent Syrian refugee crisis is to continue the campaign, yet it's known as many innocent non-combatants have been killed as ISIS fighters. The Recreational fishing community is wasting a lot of energy on a trivially issue by any broader standard. People need to take a bigger perspective.
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on the list of things in the world that require some serious ethical discussion, flossing is very low down on the list IMO. Take the current air war against ISIS - our Prime Minister states one solution to the concurrent Syrian refugee crisis is to continue the campaign, yet it's known as many innocent non-combatants have been killed as ISIS fighters. The Recreational fishing community is wasting a lot of energy on a trivially issue by any broader standard. People need to take a bigger perspective.
Agreed, but this is a fishing forum, not a political one.
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spear fishing, bow fishing, net fishing and jigging (a form of snagging) are all permitted either fresh, tidal or both. It's not a leap to accept flossing for sockeye.
Well none of those methods are permitted for salmon. But what makes sockeye so special that a specific technique should be acceptable to use for them, yet frowned upon for other salmon species? The legal methods for salmon fishing are currently consistently applied for all species (as far as I can remember). If flossing is deemed kosher, then it should be for all salmon. If it's not, then it should be banned for all. I'm not sure why an exception should be carved out just for sockeye, or what the rationale for that would be.
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Well none of those methods are permitted for salmon. But what makes sockeye so special that a specific technique should be acceptable to use for them, yet frowned upon for other salmon species? The legal methods for salmon fishing are currently consistently applied for all species (as far as I can remember). If flossing is deemed kosher, then it should be for all salmon. If it's not, then it should be banned for all. I'm not sure why an exception should be carved out just for sockeye, or what the rationale for that would be.
Refer to the most recent fisheries notice and that should answer the question of whether flossing is kosher for this year:
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm?pg=view_notice&DOC_ID=175480&ID=all
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Follow your logic we should close all stores that sell alcohol. Because some people drink and drive,
No, he never said we should shut the stores down, but whether they should discourage the practice by restricting sales on certain gear. A more apt analogy is the forced warnings on cigarettes or the MAD signs on the liquor stores window. Or the bartender who stops selling drinks to a customer who has clearly had too much. Yes, it could affect their bottom line, but the question is whether they have a moral obligation to do it.
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But what makes sockeye so special that a specific technique should be acceptable to use for them, yet frowned upon for other salmon species? The legal methods for salmon fishing are currently consistently applied for all species (as far as I can remember). If flossing is deemed kosher, then it should be for all salmon. If it's not, then it should be banned for all. I'm not sure why an exception should be carved out just for sockeye, or what the rationale for that would be.
It isn't the practice of flossing for other species that is not "kosher" it's catching sockeye when they are closed.
Flossing you have a significantly higher chance of catch a sockeye which, as I mentioned are closed, than with any other method. That's the difference.
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effectively flossing is accepted for all salmonids. There's no restrictions on leader length etc anywhere in the Province.
Flytech no one gets to talk about ethics in a restricted sense such as this only applies to Recreational fishing. It's what makes the position such as you ascribe so absurd. Fishing is a blood sport plain and simple. You can't wish this away by arcane aspersions to ethics.
I hope we soon see a new non-profit activist group - Mother Against Bottom Bouncing (MABB) - oh wait, maybe that wouldn't be about fishing but a different sort of positioning.
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I am an avid bar fisherman but I will floss during a sockeye opening, when the DFO states that they will shut the river down if they see too many people flossing they mean they will shut the river down for everyone, that means the people out flossing don't give a crap about all the other fishermen on the river they'd just as soon see it shut down, how selfish is that, I simply can't believe how ignorant those people are that they'd sooner go out and deliberately get the river closed than learn how to fish in a different manner. If the river gets closed for everyone then the sporting goods shops sell no gear whatsoever, I would think it would be in there best interest to discourage everybody they could from bottom bouncing and refusing to sell bottom bouncing gear would seem like a good way to discourage it. For those of you who haven't learned how to bar fish it's a fairly short learning curve and the gear isn't that expensive, as far as being able to catch fish, everybody I know that's been out bar fishing this year has landed springs, if you're not catching any, move, you're in the wrong place. Everybody's fishing opportunities for sockeye this year were severely reduced the commercials the natives and the sporties. Every time you fish in a different waters or different systems you have to learn different methods to fish, instead of selfishly screwing all your fellow fishermen over by being one of the people that gets counted as a non complying meat hound when the DFO fly over in their helicopter, why not be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. Fishing is not all about the meat! There was a serious conservation problem with the sockeye this year and the DFO didn't want anybody messing with them in the warm water, that's totally understandable, what's wrong with you people that you want to go out there and torture them further when they already have to dodge nets at every corner and what's wrong with you that you want to get the river shut down for the people that actually care about the state of the salmon runs. Out of respect for the women and children that read this I have been incredibly reserved in stating my opinions of those in here that chose to refuse to comply with the DFO request to use selective methods of fishing, but wvr meathounds are meathounds you have to be aware that it's not right. and btw my dad taught me when I was 6 yrs old that two wrongs do not make a right, do you people even have dads?
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The whole problem with banning flossing altogether is that unfortunately a lot of the Fraser bottom bouncers will spread out to the other tributaries using desguised techiques like "float bottom bouncing" which is so popular on the Vedder, even for steelhead too. Sad picture.
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Oregon has anti-flossing rules on many rivers that are easy to police such as:
"From May 1 through June 30, use of leaders longer than 36-inches is prohibited. Hooks are limited to no more than 1 single point
size 3/8-inch gap width (approximately size #2) or smaller hook."
"from May 1 to July 31 angling is restricted to fly angling and bobber angling only.
Bobber angling gear must include a bobber and a leader no longer than
36-inches in length. Any weight (except the bobber) may be no more
than 36-inches from the lowermost hook when suspended vertically. The
leader below the bobber must remain suspended in the water column and
not resting on the river bottom."
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I find it amazing that some anglers on this site will drive all the way to Quesnel to catch and release beautiful fish in Dragon Lake while others think that they are entitled to catch a couple salmon just because they had to pay for the gas it takes to drive from Surrey to Hope and back. That angler that drove to Quesnel will probably tell you it was one of the greatest fishing experiences he ever had and the one that drove to Hope will bitch about the DFO, bitch about the FNs, bitch about the regulations, wow we anglers sure cover a wide spectrum of peoples don't we :).
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Oregon has anti-flossing rules on many rivers that are easy to police such as:
"From May 1 through June 30, use of leaders longer than 36-inches is prohibited. Hooks are limited to no more than 1 single point
size 3/8-inch gap width (approximately size #2) or smaller hook."
"from May 1 to July 31 angling is restricted to fly angling and bobber angling only.
Bobber angling gear must include a bobber and a leader no longer than
36-inches in length. Any weight (except the bobber) may be no more
than 36-inches from the lowermost hook when suspended vertically. The
leader below the bobber must remain suspended in the water column and
not resting on the river bottom."
I wouldn't mind this reg. I could support this.
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I wouldn't mind this reg. I could support this.
Except it would also prohibit bar fishing.
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I was watching Alaska State Troopers one night and saw them give a fly fisherman a ticket for making a big ripping action at the end of his drift. The trooper told the guy that was a snagging motion and that was that. If they can bust a guy for snagging with no gear restrictions whatsoever in the States where lawyers are quite plentiful and used by everybody that thinks they've been wronged I'm guessing that it would be pretty easy to bust people here too. Unfortunately we live in a province where mining and logging companies are now counted on to police themselves in regards to pollution matters and fishermen are expected to police themselves also. It's up to each tackle shop individually to decide what to do. The DFO does not make the laws, that's up to the provincial government who are obviously convinced that the people and businesses in BC are the most honest in the world because we need no enforcement, the only power they have is to close the river if they figure that the fishermen are endangering the salmon. Probably rather than take a chance on their being severe non compliance to their request for people not to bottom bounce as there was this year if the same situation arises in the future they will just close the whole river for all salmon fishing. Now the sporting goods shops have to decide whether or not to try to discourage people from bottom bouncing in fear of the river being totally closed in the future or take the cash now. I guess it's up to them to police themselves too. Looks to me like it's the instant gratification of the fast cash for most of them.
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Except it would also prohibit bar fishing.
Meh - I don't bbounce or bar fish anymore so like I said earlier, I could support that Oregon reg.
I could however, see how others would take issue with that reg.
Personally, I believe that if we have salmon stocks in such risk to survival condition, we should be supporting a total salmon angling ban.
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Personally, I believe that if we have salmon stocks in such risk to survival condition, we should be supporting a total salmon angling ban.
Too bad a lot of anglers think about their own interests over the entire salmon stocks. Then proceed to point the finger at other groups for the "blame".
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Too bad a lot of anglers think about their own interests over the entire salmon stocks. Then proceed to point the finger at other groups for the "blame".
Serious question, as I agree with you to a point. Do you honestly believe that if all sport fishing was stopped tomorrow, but every thing else was to stay the same, that fish stocks would recover?
If the only issue facing salmon was the sporties then there would be no conservation concerns. In my personal experience many, many anglers are actively trying to improve their plight. The same can not be said for many of the other threats facing them. To place the blame on us is unjust.
Earlier there was a post about the diversity of Anglers. I agree, but that is not to disparage others. ;) A person can walk to the river, floss his two fish and then leave. A different person can jig for pinks and catch 20, drag them on the beach, kick them back in the water and then post on here about his day and be praised while the if the flosser did that he would be ridiculed. A person who only drives to Hope to catch a few salmon then complains about the FNs, the poor regulations, and mismanagement of the DFO is some how worse than the guy who drives past all of these issues on his way to 100 mile house (if you want trout the fishing is better, if you want variety continue to Prince George). The examples are too numerous to mentions, but you get the point. I fear the day when I will not be able to fish anymore will come soon, not in the name of conservation but because anglers themselves demanded it.
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Serious question, as I agree with you to a point. Do you honestly believe that if all sport fishing was stopped tomorrow, but every thing else was to stay the same, that fish stocks would recover?
No, it wouldn't be enough, but it's a start. Why is it everyone seems to have this "if they can harvest, why can't I" attitude? I don't know about you personally, but I know life isn't fair.
I'm sick of seeing anglers whine and complain because they don't get what they want. Then they go and point fingers at other groups and blame them for their plight.
Down the road I hope for full salmon seasons to be closed for everyone, all groups, and then only then will we possibly see the stocks rise. There are many contributing factors for lower stocks, not just humans. You wouldn't see me complain, there is plenty of other fisheries to enjoy around this great province.
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Down the road I hope for full salmon seasons to be closed for everyone, all groups, and then only then will we possibly see the stocks rise. There are many contributing factors for lower stocks, not just humans.
Humans are very much the cause and major cause alone(Up to this point). Please remove head from sand, lol
And oddly enough it's the flosser who don't whine... Lol. There just getting some action.
Our natural resources are being raped and pillaged for economic gain and this is perfectly acceptable. Flosser Joe's is just getting in on the action.
The unfortunate truth is... Salmon are toast as per global warming and human growth... There is no stopping this.
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there's a hell of a lot of hypocrisy in blaming it all on "rape and pillage of economic resource"s since almost all of us live the life style that sort of economic activity supports. Without it we wouldn't be fishing as we do as we wouldn't have the tackle and we couldn't get to the rivers to fish.
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Humans are very much the cause and major cause alone(Up to this point). Please remove head from sand, lol
Yes we humans are the major cause, but not the entire cause. Global climate change will actually kill the entire stocks that we don't do in ourselves.