Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: milo on September 23, 2013, 07:15:05 PM
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I took advantage of the fact that no people were fishing a usually busy spot yesterday on the Vedder (thank you rain!), so I had the opportunity to observe some interesting salmon behavior in slack water.
I saw coho and pinks holding together (no big deal - we see them all the time), but NOT ONE pink in the holding water wanted to hit a pink fly that usually makes pink salmon go crazy when it is presented in the current. Instead, some of the coho in the "co-ed" went for that particular fly with gusto, although it is a fly that you would never consider keeping in your coho salmon fly box.
Another interesting thing I noticed is that when a fresh school of coho arrived, pinks would yield the 'sweet spot' in the water column to them. My theory is that coho try to show pinks who is boss, and get particularly aggressive when holding together. I almost couldn't believe the aggressiveness of the coho - hence my low hookup to landing ratio. The take of the fly was very violent, and the fish went crazy after I set up the hook on them. I was really glad my reel has a good drag although that is usually not an issue.
For this early in the season, I had an absolutely stellar day hooking into 7 coho, landing 3, with all pinks (except one) staying away from my flies.
Care to share some other interesting tidbits on salmon behavior?
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Sounds like a great day, in spite of the rain
a good day fishin'.........
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Sounds like an awesome day Milo
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It was actually great two days 8). Despite steady rain on Sunday the river was holding well and she was like a conveyor belt. Fish after fish after fish in a thick lineup traveling close to shore. It was a view to admire. :)
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It was actually great two days 8). Despite steady rain on Sunday the river was holding well and she was like a conveyor belt. Fish after fish after fish in a thick lineup traveling close to shore. It was a view to admire. :)
I agree. Great to see the Vedder slowly returning to its former glory. The last few years have been brutal with the mudslides coloring the river with every rainfall.
No more large presentations...they only scare the fish in clear water. Go small or go home. 8)
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Hey milo does roe work for spring?
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Care to share some other interesting tidbits on salmon behavior?
Yes actually, though this isn't a revelation for anyone who has fished a while but it was neat to watch from a birds-eye view:
I visited the Vedder a couple of weekends ago and spent some time watching the gong show from midspan on the KWB. The chinook that entered the run would typically come right up the deep slot in the middle and then hang in the main current.
The pinks and coho on the other hand would swim up the shallows - I'm talking 2 feet of water - until they would reach the anglers who were thigh-deep in the water. Then the fish would push out into deeper water or hold in the shallow water 10-20 feet below the anglers.
The obvious lesson is there is often no need to wade into the river - especially not up to your thighs/waist! Fish are lazy and will take the route of least resistance... this means they often travel in shallow water. Try the shallow seams before you splash recklessly into the water.
Great story, Milo! :)
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Hey milo does roe work for spring?
Roe is probably the best bait for springs.
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The obvious lesson is there is often no need to wade into the river - especially not up to your thighs/waist! Fish are lazy and will take the route of least resistance... this means they often travel in shallow water. Try the shallow seams before you splash recklessly into the water.
X2 So many fishermen trying get their moneys worth from their waders!
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Would artificial roe work as good as real roe,?
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I'm hoping to catch a coho or a spring on a fly haha
Chums and pinks are easy to catch so I guess I would prob get a chum first
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I'm hoping to catch a coho or a spring on a fly haha
Chums and pinks are easy to catch so I guess I would prob get a chum first
Make sure you use no less than a 9-weight if you are targetting springs and chum. Anything less than that usually results in a lost fly, or worse, a broken rod.
Forget roe, koifish, and stick to artificials. Anybody can feed the fish; but it takes true skill to FOOL the fish. ;)
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Would artificial roe work as good as real roe,?
No. When drift fishing chinook, nothing comes even remotely close to roe in terms efficiency.
I take exception to Milo's comments regarding feeding fish vs fooling them. I have no issue with his point of view, frankly if he wants to limit his catch rates in the name of sportsmanship then that is his perogative. However, to discourage new fisherman from using proven legal methods is just silly.
I can imagine it now, koifish (for the sake of my example) shows up on the river armed with gooey bobs and wool because he read online to forget roe. Six hours into the day with no bites he notices the other anglers around him/her are hooking into fish using wool. As a new angler they notice the the key to success seems to be a longer leader and a few extra hook sets along the way for good measure. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this...
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If you want to have the best chance at catching a spring use roe. Keep in mind that not all roe is created equal though, and good quality roe can make a huge difference. Even more so when going after coho in my opinion.
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I take exception to Milo's comments regarding feeding fish vs fooling them. I have no issue with his point of view, frankly if he wants to limit his catch rates in the name of sportsmanship then that is his perogative. However, to discourage new fisherman from using proven legal methods is just silly.
I can imagine it now, koifish (for the sake of my example) shows up on the river armed with gooey bobs and wool because he read online to forget roe. Six hours into the day with no bites he notices the other anglers around him/her are hooking into fish using wool. As a new angler they notice the the key to success seems to be a longer leader and a few extra hook sets along the way for good measure. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this...
LOL! The best gear salmon fishermen catch more coho and springs with a 12-18" leader and the tiniest tuft of peach or orange wool imitating a single egg or a with a well presented blade than those armed with big blobs of stinky roe!
I wasn't trying to discourage Koifish, who seems quite willing to try different methods. He already even fly fishes from what I understand, so I am pretty sure he knows very well what long leaders and wool under a float (or worse, a bouncing betty) are all about.
I am not demeaning the use of roe. Heck, I fished it myself a lot in my early days. But why not encourage someone who seems to be willing to evolve to take a short cut?
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Milo fly fishing is not evolving it's just another form of fishing
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LOL! The best gear salmon fishermen catch more coho and springs with a 12-18" leader and the tiniest tuft of peach or orange wool imitating a single egg or a with a well presented blade than those armed with big blobs of stinky roe!
Spoken like a true elitest fly fisherman ::) 12"-18" leaders are the best length of leader to use in water with roughly 3'-4' of vis with average flow or water with 4'-6' of vis with moderate to heavy flow such as a head of a pool or run. In a typical run such as peach road I would use a leader roughly 16"-24" in water with 4'-6' of vis
If you wanna toss your wool, blades and rubbers while I toss my roe I'd be game to fish with you for a day milo, loser buys lunch lol
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Big blobs of stinky roe?
Milo,they have fridges now.You should get one. ;)
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"Hills Bros...red can."
Fly fishing is not just another form of fishing. It is indeed an evolution, as 99 percent of anglers start out as bait fishermen. The reason you stick that worm on your kid's hook is because you know it is the best chance they have to catch a fish. Fish feed by smell first and all other senses next. No one is going to argue with you that you can catch fish with roe, but the guy that can catch more fish than you using scentless flies is obviously going to be a more skilled fisherman. Now that does not mean all fly fisherman are better fisherman, and you probably do catch more fish with your roe than most fly fishermen do with flies. Now, I cannot explain to you why I would intentionally choose to fish in a manner that puts me at an obvious disadvantage to you when we are going head to head in a "catch the most fish" contest, but I can tell you that every fish I catch is going to feel a lot more satisfying to me knowing I fooled it into biting a bunch of fur and feathers, than it would by fooling it by sticking a hook into the actual stuff it is eating. Fly fishing is more difficult then fishing with bait, from the casting and presentation of the offering, to the control of a drifting fly, to the playing of the fish itself (do I fight it on the reel or on the line?). A fly fisherman has made a conscious choice to put the fishing ahead of the catching. Most bait fisherman do not get that, hence the reference to us being "elitist."
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Sorry Sandman. I disagree. And I'm one of the 1% of guys who started fly fishing for salmon and steelhead years before learning to use the drift rod. I've caught trout, salmon, and steelhead on the fly - all flies that I tied myself. I do consider fly fishing to be more difficult from a technical perspective (i.e. casting, presentation, etc.). However, I would rate both drift fishing and fly fishing to be equally difficult in terms of consistently catching fish. And I do get satisfaction knowing that I prepared and cured roe, that outfishes everything else, myself. I get just as much enjoyment out of short floating roe for coho as I do chironomid fishing for trout, or spey casting for steelhead. Both drift fishing and fly fishing require skill and the lessons on the water are endless. Some species take flies very well (flies for pinks will outfish gear hands down, as will chironomids for trout). I'm at the point where I can catch fish with either the fly or roe. To me, they are simply different forms of fishing and neither one is better than the other. But that's just my own experience and each to their own... ;) ;) ;)
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Sorry Sandman. I disagree. And I'm one of the 1% of guys who started fly fishing for salmon and steelhead years before learning to use the drift rod. I've caught trout, salmon, and steelhead on the fly - all flies that I tied myself. I do consider fly fishing to be more difficult from a technical perspective (i.e. casting, presentation, etc.). However, I would rate both drift fishing and fly fishing to be equally difficult in terms of consistently catching fish. And I do get satisfaction knowing that I prepared and cured roe, that outfishes everything else, myself. I get just as much enjoyment out of short floating roe for coho as I do chironomid fishing for trout, or spey casting for steelhead. Both drift fishing and fly fishing require skill and the lessons on the water are endless. Some species take flies very well (flies for pinks will outfish gear hands down, as will chironomids for trout). I'm at the point where I can catch fish with either the fly or roe. To me, they are simply different forms of fishing and neither one is better than the other. But that's just my own experience and each to their own... ;) ;) ;)
Give this man a medal !!!!. A fly fisherman that "gets it". Great post!
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If you wanna toss your wool, blades and rubbers while I toss my roe I'd be game to fish with you for a day milo, loser buys lunch lol
I don't see fishing as a numbers' game, but for the record, I know you'd beat me hands down.
Introduce yourself next time you run into me on the flow and I'll buy you lunch anyway.
I don't feed fish, but I will gladly feed a hungry fellow angler. :D
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Its a shame that we live in a society where everyone needs to feel superior to their fellow man. as far as i'm concerned to each their own, but a certain part of sandmans posts rings true. He says that the satisfaction of catching a fish thru more difficult means is more gratifying and he has hit the nail right on the head. This is precisely why guys will use their centerpins stalking steelhead. The purity of it all. Its more about quality than quantity. Personally I found Centerpin casting much more difficult to learn than fly casting. I tie my own flies and jigs and cure my own roe. The first time a fish rose to take a dry I tied was so rewarding.....as was my first steelhead pinning. Guys lets not forget we are a brotherhood here. We all share the same passion for our quarry, it doesn,t matter the technique u prefer, if I'm standing beside u and u bring in a beauty fly fishig I will certainly say nice fish, and hopefully fly fishermen will do the same for guys using other methods and not turn up their noses because he is using "smelly rotten roe"
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A fish is a fish, no matter what ethical method is used to catch it. I get the same rush wether I am bait casting/ fly fishing or drowning a worm with my kids! Lol
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Milo fly fishing is not evolving it's just another form of fishing
It seems that Milo has a hard time to understand this simple fact. Maybe that's why he go home with fish caught by his buddies on roe... once in a while. 8) ;D
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It seems that Milo has a hard time to understand this simple fact. Maybe that's why he go home with fish caught by his buddies on roe... once in a while. 8) ;D
Plus the fish comes already cleaned and ready to eat. ;D
I do the fishing, you do the catching and cleaning. A win-win situation in my books. 8)
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Plus the fish comes already cleaned and ready to eat. ;D
I do the fishing, you do the catching and cleaning. A win-win situation in my books. 8)
Darn fly fishing elitists and their hunger sticks. ;D :P. No more free coho for you buddy. ::)
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Plus the fish comes already cleaned and ready to eat.
I do the fishing, you do the catching and cleaning. A win-win situation in my books.
Seems to me Milo has it figured out. lol.
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Good to hear you had a fine day, Milo. Yes, I have seen several strange anomalies with fish behaviour. On the Cowichan one day I hooked what I thought was a steelhead paired with another. It turned out to be a Brown trout of about 5 or 6 pounds. When I was playing the Brown the steelhead followed it the whole time. And when I released the Brown the two swam off together. I saw a summer-run steelhead on the Marble buddy up with a sockeye and the two traveled together despite there being others of their own kind nearby. Maybe it is similar to me going to Thailand and my choices there.
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Plus the fish comes already cleaned and ready to eat. ;D
I do the fishing, you do the catching and cleaning. A win-win situation in my books. 8)
Works for me and Ironnoggin.
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Darn fly fishing elitists and their hunger sticks. ;D :P. No more free coho for you buddy. ::)
No problem Tad. A nice spring is fine, too. ;D
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I was fishing an area where the river splits off due to an island, fished the deep stretch with only a few pinks to show, but then moved to the over half which was almost like a side channel. Me and my buddy could see the fish constantly pushing in their little group. The larger chinooks would come in 5-10 at a time, and just push through like torpedo's in a few seconds. Then the pinks would come in large schools and go by a little slower. I started to wonder where the coho were because in the last two years I have been catching them in decent numbers around the last week of September. Looked a little closer the you could actually see a few coho in the schools of pinks. They were noticeable because the pinks were travelling closer to the surface than the coho, the coho were thicker than the pinks and were traveling almost along the gravel. Managed to hook and lose one on a blade but they were there with the pinks. Probably going to get check out that spot where we fished together last fall Milo, either that or hit the Thompson again. I assume that there are fish resting there so I guess its worth a shot.
Cheers
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I catch fish with any method. I do enjoy fly fishing more and spey casting even more than that ;D
I use my gear during times of the season when gear is going to be more effective. I then use my fly when I feel it will produce more. a lot of the time during the fall im actually carrying both on the water depending on where I will be fishing.
HOOK - will put his fly rod down to help a gut chucker land his fish...................sometimes 8)
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I also disagree with the whole fly fishing is a progression. If it is... I guess that means I have progressed and now de-evolved.
I toss pin, level wind, spoons, spinners, fly and spey. I can say that out of all those methods, the ones I enjoy most now a days are spoons and spinners on a small spinning outfit. Is the reason I like it because I catch more fish? No. It's because I enjoy the method, I love only having to carry a box of spoons and leader. I love how light they are, how easy they are to cast and how accurate they are. What I love most is the ability to keep moving and cover water faster than anything else, and of course I love the bone crushing hits. It's not at all about the fact I catch less fish on the fly, or don't know how to fly fish properly, it's about what each individual enjoys most as far as method goes.
I fly fish all summer for summer runs, and all fall for coho. To be honest, I wouldn't if it weren't for 2 reasons. 1) I find flies more effective for them than anything else (small sparse patterns and a long leader means fish see the fly first with nothing else around - float/weights - and many times the fly imitates exactly what they (steelhead) are eating). 2) Half the time I am fishing fly fishing only rivers... if they weren't fly fishing only, I'd be chucking metal at em.
Do what you like best, and what you find works best. Any fisherman that tells you they don't ever want to catch fish is lying, so if you are limiting your fish catching abilities because you feel elitist and want to stick to one single method, go for it - but don't push that opinion on new fishermen who haven't caught a bunch. I personally take multiple set ups, fish flies first, metal second and then bait if I'm really hurting. Most days I don't make it past flies if it's for coho.
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It is interesting, after reading your posts, magician and ED, but I don't think either of you are actually disagreeing with me, since I never once said that Fly fishing is "better" than bait fishing, I just said it was more challenging. I am not sure why people read more into my post than what was there. I also never said that you could not enjoy hooking a fish using other methods, or that you could not "evolve" or switch from fly fishing to other methods, I just said I feel more satisfaction hooking a fish on a fly. I do not think anyone could convince me, given that fishing any method is still a challenge and bait is no guarantee you are going to hook fish drift fishing, that tossing a baited hook with lead and a float, or a blade for that matter, is not going to be easier to reach more fish than casting a fly. I welcome you to try. I have read your blade adventure stories ED and I know that one reason you like fishing blades so much, other than the heart stopping strike, is your ability to cover water more quickly and efficiently than other methods including a fly (and I am also pretty sure your fly box is probably smaller and lighter than your box of blades, so that can't be it). I also take exception to the fact that someone who on the one hand argues people should fish using whatever method they choose, tells me in the same breath that I must feel elitist because I prefer one method and would rather fish that method and not catch fish than carry a back up rod to fish if the first does not produce a fish. No one is "Pushing" one method on anyone.
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Backing up what Sandman just said... And, although I hate posting the same thing twice, I think this is appropriate here...
(http://gallery.fishbc.com/albums/album554/Intent.sized.jpg)
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Looked a little closer the you could actually see a few coho in the schools of pinks. They were noticeable because the pinks were travelling closer to the surface than the coho, the coho were thicker than the pinks and were traveling almost along the gravel. Managed to hook and lose one on a blade but they were there with the pinks.
That is a very interesting observation BCF97.
I wonder what would be the best method to selectively target the cohos and avoid hooking the pinks in this kind of situation?
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I do not think anyone could convince me, given that fishing any method is still a challenge and bait is no guarantee you are going to hook fish drift fishing, that tossing a baited hook with lead and a float, or a blade for that matter, is not going to be easier to reach more fish than casting a fly. I welcome you to try.
It may be easier to reach more fish, but it doesn't mean it's more effective.
Casting bait at fish in low clear water spooks them in my experience (if float fishing). Casting spoons under the same conditions can also spook them (I find 50 % want to kill it and 50% take off the other way). Flies I very, very rarely spook fish and find as long as I can hit the fish (not an issue in smaller flows) the fish will bite almost every time. This past weekend I went 10 for 10 sight fishing individual steelhead on the fly, not sure I would have done that with a float or with a spoon at the end of the line in the crystal clear, very low water.
I still stand by the fact that if you can present a fly to them, steelhead, pinks, and coho are more prone to take a fly than anything else. Chinook on the other hand, you'll never see me tossing flies for, because it just doesn't work all that well unless you're off a beach somewhere. Same thing with sockeye, bait all the way.
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Same thing with sockeye, bait all the way.
I used to think so too, until my recent trip to the Harrison. A old friend of mine recently caught his first spring on the fly on the Vedder the other day. You can bet he was thrilled.
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I used to think so too, until my recent trip to the Harrison. A old friend of mine recently caught his first spring on the fly on the Vedder the other day. You can bet he was thrilled.
Good idea for a thread, Milo re. salmon behaviour, although it has gotten a little off track...:) Two things to offer. One from personal experience, and one not.
In late August I retained a hatch buck coho off the beach. When gutting him, his gut was completely empty, so I presumed that he had stopped feeding prior to his upstream spawning run. In mid Sept, my partner retained a carbon copy hatch buck coho, except his gut was packed full of stickleback. We counted approx 50 inch long stickleback in his gut, some partly digested and some quite fresh. So I learned two things: 1) coho might not stop feeding when I think they do. Typically in late summer/early fall I "up" my gear for coho (bigger spoons, bigger beach rod), however seeing that some coho are still actively feeding on small prey I may be wise to continue tossing the smaller spoons that I typically use for cutthroat throughout the summer. 2) In 20 years of fishing this beach I can only recall seeing needlefish in the gut of the fish I have retained. Seeing stickleback was an eye opener.
Many years ago a well known Fraser Valley anger wrote an article about his "underdog theory". One day on the Chehalis, using polaroid glasses, he observed a small group of coho hiding underneath and just behind large group of chum that were holding close in the clear water. He observed the coho darting forward under the chum and then returning to their postiton in the rear. He presumed that they were feeding on loose chum eggs. His solution was to gear down, use a longer leader, use a single Jensen egg or tuft of wool in a colour that would not attract chum (i.e. peach or cotton candy), cast above the chum, and drift through them to target the coho behind.